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我們立法院院長我們卓院長及各部會所長有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27.745,"end":56.661,"text":"政務委員好謝謝你院長好辛苦了謝謝你每次我們到花蓮你都是從頭到尾每次都全程的提供很好的意見謝謝好首先還是要謝謝卓院長及政務委員還有各部會首長到這個花蓮光屋鄉做非常多的一個支持跟協助好我們今天就先談這個馬太安溪這個潰壩造成的這些事項"},{"start":58.871,"end":69.331,"text":"我們先看花蓮縣光復鄉嚴重的災害我們今天不談不談責任只談這個主管單位"},{"start":70.814,"end":99.195,"text":"第一个 人民的伤亡人民的伤亡就是因为第一个 没有完全撤离这个是主管单位就包含了中央 县府 乡公所到村长这个我们也谢谢我们计政委员这个已经做了一次的非常好的演练这个都可以作为包括其他县市共同的一个参考第二个原因 人民的伤亡第二个原因"},{"start":100.117,"end":117.677,"text":"就是應該防範菸攝乎潰壩或溢流這個主要是中央主管的單位第三個就是提防因羞濁加固加高這個也是中央政府的主管的單位"},{"start":118.922,"end":138.582,"text":"第二個嚴重的災害就是災情就是房屋淹水土石家計沖毀汽車機車沖毀農田農作物淹埋土石包括當然還有很多的像教堂公共設施這個都是這個就是跟撤離沒有關係與撤離無關"},{"start":141.533,"end":161.019,"text":"主要的原因當然就是應該防範這個因涉浮潰壩或溢流這是中央政府主管第二個原因提防因加高加固這個包括河床的輸菌這個中央政府的主管的單位"},{"start":162.113,"end":185.534,"text":"第三個重大的災情就是馬太安溪橋被沖毀當然這個主要的就是這個因防範 因社福潰壩或溢流這個也是中央政府主管的單位我們看現在現行的國有林地因社福因變標準作業程序這個規定"},{"start":188.609,"end":215.207,"text":"你看我們只有林務級就是現在的林業農業部林業署來主管跟他的這個各林區管理處這個部分我們都必須要去檢討然後我們看這個緊急應變階段這是第二階段緊急應變階段還交給林管處召開這個應變小組所以這個應該要提高層級"},{"start":216.604,"end":245.778,"text":"另外就是到了第三阶段的时候也不过是由林务己就是现在的林业署来负责召开咨询会议因涉浮之工程处理方案警戒撤离对策所以这个部分也是层级不高需要去检讨提高当然很重要的就是什么要有经费是要有经费 是没有经费"},{"start":247.122,"end":273.745,"text":"所以我們看這個這個菸攝浮緊急工程的處理包括緊急抽水緊急排水緊急排水就是要降蛙這裡面寫的很修這是最有效的方法讓菸攝浮壩體開挖一流水道這是這裡面寫的最有效的方法另外就是降低天然壩之壩體高度也是壩點要挖降"},{"start":274.409,"end":291.341,"text":"所以這個部分這個也是一個最主要是經費所以涉及到經費所以河道疏浚以整治工程也都是一樣會涉及到經費所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席特別請院長能夠將這個"},{"start":294.694,"end":320.801,"text":"應變標準作業程序能夠提高為法例或法規命令的位階並且可以動之行政院的第二義備金這個法例的措錢可以在哪裡也許可以在災害防救法那一條然後在措錢訂一個辦法這樣的話是不是可以朝這個方向去努力是 報告委員的用心關於煙射壺的關於它的整個"},{"start":323.16,"end":337.165,"text":"包括他的復原等等本來我們是有一個相關的指引在做各種依據那現在因為看到這一次的這個煙神火的事件農業部已經在提升他的整個法律的位階"},{"start":338.803,"end":367.402,"text":"未來是在災防法裡面會把他納進來所以說委員所建議的這個部分等於我們現在在做的雖然他目前是在林務局做一個主管的單位但是從第二天開始我們就成立了中央應變中心也到現場去相關的必須要動用到的經費也都會隨時的支應出來那現在我們又有更多的這些特別的預算可以來支應那這個都已經是現在現行的制度跟現行的方法了"},{"start":367.915,"end":397.037,"text":"好 謝謝院長我們就以修正災害防救法針對一條然後能夠授權訂一個更完善的法規命令我們看這個個案今天的這個馬太安溪淹涉浮潰壩或溢流這樣的一個個案根據農業部林業署也就是林務局的資料根據這個資料寫得很清楚"},{"start":401.172,"end":416.049,"text":"92年就開始有崩塌現象比較很嚴重開始的就是從109年開始支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大然後有時細水 有時沒有細水"},{"start":417.56,"end":439.849,"text":"然后113年也就是去年康瑞台风后支流右岸尤其下游侧开始有急迫崩塌所以这个部分就是我们从这个个案来去检讨然后就可以让未来有更好的因应的机制所以本席是太晚知道了"},{"start":440.919,"end":456.331,"text":"本席是八月中旬之前差不多八月初的時候知道這個從新聞上知道所以我在八月十三號在卓院長主持這個丹納斯颱風的特別條例的時候我提出了這個附帶結議"},{"start":458.24,"end":485.464,"text":"就是要請行政院督導行政院公共工程委會農業部還有經濟部第一個 開挖易紅道第二個 修築堤防 庫藏工程在這個主結議附帶結議裡面就寫得很清楚所以這個附帶結議在8月15號立法院通過了那我本人我在8月20號的時候看到新聞"},{"start":487.062,"end":489.382,"text":"林務局的資料林業署的資料就是說"},{"start":490.56,"end":518.916,"text":"都沒有下雨的話十月初就會溢流所以我8月20號緊急發會議通知邀請行政院 災防辦還有公共工程委員會農業部 經濟部召開緊急的會議所以我做出了一個結論 結議也就是請各機關要依立法院的附帶結議趕快進行當然就是開發易紅道 修築堤防 庫船工程"},{"start":519.724,"end":541.494,"text":"等等所以這樣的一個情形之下當然我們看事後卓院長多次的去這個視察然後各部會也緊急的去做了非常多的一個工程譬如說這個以基金部來講短期臨時提防10月5號就完成10月5號就完成"},{"start":544.594,"end":569.342,"text":"當然就是經費的問題成績的提高的問題就會從這邊可以顯示出來緊急輸進工程像這樣的總共加起來的經費差不多40億所以這個跟經費跟成績的提高都有關係我們看農業部的報告農業部在10月25號跟向院長所做的報告裡面"},{"start":569.862,"end":585.777,"text":"也提到這個施工變道要從光復林道後 望榮林道後馬灘溪的溪床然後壩體的降溫 降低水位 壩體穩定這個也都是需要經費當然這裡面"},{"start":589.028,"end":616.969,"text":"等一下我們可以討論就是說農業部的報告裡面方案一就是光復零到19K開始這樣上去13公里200個工作天坡度較平穩方案二從望榮零到上去長度2.3公里坡度比較多所以有相關的這些規劃跟分析很快的就有這樣的一個規劃分析我們看這個"},{"start":619.315,"end":648.561,"text":"整個菸社府如果我們看國際的三大案例國際的三大案例我們看比較相近的應該是案例三完全用挖掘引流這個是美國以陸軍工兵團動用大量挖土機或推土機等重型設備開著一條人工的易洪道這個是我們可以參考國外的案例"},{"start":649.901,"end":670.541,"text":"那我本席不是這方面的專業但是我在8月22號召開的緊急會議的時候是建議農業部當時的建議協調國防部用空軍的直升機載運這個"},{"start":674.076,"end":701.829,"text":"挖土機中型的或小型的挖土機不是整個蓋其實它是可以組裝的零件可以組裝的當然要看地形地貌要看地形地貌地質的問題很鬆這個都是要去觀察當然我只不過是建議如果真的挖土機沒有辦法的話那個地形地貌只好比照幾十年前"},{"start":703.56,"end":728.73,"text":"幾十年前的方式就是用人工啊用空中直升機載人工所以這個部分都是可以去考量的考量的部分因為因為我們也必須考量這樣的一個林道這麼長你開整個要把那個林道要透寬這個"},{"start":731.824,"end":759.026,"text":"相關的機械才可以上去對林這個山林的保護是不是會有影響都必須去評估啦這個是我只是給這個農業部兩點簡單跟我們報告第一個當初我們也想到說降蛙空降是降蛙或者洪溪管另外一個是輸入但是任何的方式"},{"start":760.28,"end":780.664,"text":"所需要的時間因為那個霸體太大了任何的方式在十月底都不可能完成那十月底依照我們的研判他會自然的溢流出來所以就是嚴加的監控這個部分應該是我們這不是專業啦我只不過是建議啦而且剛才我特別提了"},{"start":781.67,"end":796.875,"text":"我們怎麼樣呢 提早因應就以這個馬太安西煙社府來講如果109年就時間就很長了所以他只要有的時候我們就像現在的利物溪就像現在的利物溪"},{"start":798.482,"end":814.747,"text":"馬上就可以當然它不一樣不能一樣我只不過是建議農業部長期在觀測當時它的量體還那麼小比方說我們在殲10箱的太康溪現在也有但是它不足以我們去做一個緊急的處分但是我們在9月中的時候"},{"start":815.686,"end":839.186,"text":"行政院的政務會議就正式排定一個驗社府的報告當時我們就認為說提出剛剛的三個方式以及時間點在那個時間決定就是要嚴密的監控它如果有狀況我們採取應急的措施但是也要求當地要進行疏散的演練這個部分可能是有一點時間上的落差未來的因變"},{"start":840.848,"end":863.826,"text":"作業程序或者是法規就是要一開始有發現的時候就要去處理就像這個來講如果109年就開始的話我跟委員長補充一下就是以這次的花蓮的馬太安跟栗霧溪的兩個驗證物來比較因為它本身的堆積出來的霸體它的性質是不一樣像栗霧溪我們就用降蛙的方式引流的方式"},{"start":864.326,"end":887.22,"text":"所以因為它的地質是適合這樣子的但馬太安是以泥沙為主而且那時候的天氣經常下雨土石非常鬆軟是沒有辦法做任何的可能的方式去處理所以我們才用嚴密的監控然後對下雨做一個很極盡速的一個那個疏散的一個策略這個不是責任我只是這樣說就是說"},{"start":891.615,"end":916.422,"text":"這個要請國防部協助啦國防部協助相關的直升機最起碼去了解整個地形好不好這個當然我沒有說你的方案一或方案二是錯誤的我沒有這樣講只不過能夠有更好的也許有更好的方式好 接下來這個鐵路的部分"},{"start":917.898,"end":944.514,"text":"我們先以北迴鐵路來看這個前線東車這整個都是用人力16座隧道主要是靠人工主要是靠人工這是我以北迴鐵路為例我們看這個當初北迴鐵路就是靠人工"},{"start":946.736,"end":973.462,"text":"這次經濟部對於這個馬太安溪橋相關的這些因應當然除了剛才這個講已經講了這個提防的部分的謝謝就繼續努力了那現在就看這個鐵路民國70年光復隧道民國70年所以非常感恩感謝當時的"},{"start":976.648,"end":999.908,"text":"鐵路級的規劃人員他就用這個隧道所以造成這一次馬灘溪橋斷了很多的都是透過這個鐵路來運送這麼多的志工去那邊都是靠這個隧道所以真的是要感謝我們看這個"},{"start":1004.112,"end":1023.351,"text":"這個整個馬灘西橋都已經重回了我們看這個光復隧道1981年第一道第一代的光復隧道民國70年就通車然後第二代隧道2013年它改為雙向"},{"start":1027.822,"end":1051.748,"text":"這個第一代民國70年那個現在是空在那邊所以我上次有跟部長建議當然我只能建議這個是不是有可能我認為當初的台鐵集能夠要用挖的他本來是在上面他們一定是了解這個光復"},{"start":1053.044,"end":1079.918,"text":"馬太安溪的問題所以他們是往下 民國70年就知道了所以這個部分是給交通部找專家學者 專業人員去參考我的建議有可能的話公路橋 那個橋 馬太安溪橋有沒有可能從下面這個部分給交通部 這個我們都不是專業人員好 就這樣"},{"start":1081.189,"end":1107.748,"text":"好 我們接下來這個特別預算特別條例今天通過了行政院就要開始編列特別預算各部會 主要是其他各部會啦那 延民會也不要忽略到延民會啦我只不過是建議不要忽略到延民會那因為光復鄉來講啊二分之一 百分之五十三的人口是原住民"},{"start":1108.944,"end":1118.04,"text":"所以除了各部會應該要編列的依照特別條例來編列預算之外因為光復鄉原住民的人口佔了55.43%"},{"start":1121.281,"end":1148.229,"text":"所以這個部分這個像以這次的特別條例所通過的這個第四條第一項第六款有文化資產文化健康戰際會所相關的這些包括教會教堂這次又教堂受損所以這個相關的這些文化產業的振興各方面也請這個主計總署不要忘了這個"},{"start":1149.498,"end":1175.244,"text":"延民會這個能夠也編列在這個300億裡面能夠去編列 就是這樣的一個建議有 我們有編列 剛剛你講這些聚會所教會 教堂 這個都有好非常謝謝 我們接下來接下來就請 還是請交通部麻煩再請交通部長備詢好 請主委"},{"start":1180.833,"end":1196.459,"text":"這個漁花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫這個部長已經被我質詢得很不耐煩了也沒有不耐煩你都很積極討論很多次了這個是0403的地震所造成的所以0403也就是113年4月3號台鐵"},{"start":1210.188,"end":1231.216,"text":"在去年12月9號提報了宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫到交通部 交通部審查之後退學期再修正 退學期再修正然後本席在7月24號質詢這個部長部長說我們會努力跟行政院爭取"},{"start":1232.506,"end":1252.386,"text":"本席也質詢了前任的國發會主委在8月7號的時候國發會主委說我們會審查那時候行政院交付給國發會那國發會前天已經審查完成了"},{"start":1253.531,"end":1279.13,"text":"國發會 我都有在追蹤因為我是公務人員也做過 辦理過研考所以都有去追蹤謝謝國發會 已經審查完畢了已經應該是下禮拜就會收到 行政院就會收到這個計畫要請院長能夠趕快的核定讓這個"},{"start":1281.246,"end":1287.429,"text":"宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫能夠盡快的開始執行"},{"start":1288.737,"end":1316.825,"text":"可以嗎 院長交通部在0403之後對花東地區的交通的安全提升確實是跟地方也在溝通那麼也做了一些規劃 工程上的規劃那國發會竟然已經就內容已審核那如果願送到這裡來我會詳細的看那其中有需要再跟部裡面再做溝通的或是跟國發會再做說明的我會緊速的來完成我常常跟那個"},{"start":1318.328,"end":1344.139,"text":"部長常常以北迴鐵路為例北迴鐵路當時的財政的狀況跟現在的差很多79.2公里的幹線22座大橋16座隧道6年就完工了很多都是用人工所以這個部分這個要請"},{"start":1346.361,"end":1374.375,"text":"這個院長多多支持 趕快核定好 謝謝院長剛才的這個承諾好 我們接下來就再請原民會來麻煩再請原民會備詢這個院長這個原住民族自治跟原住民族土地及海域法是我們原住民族最迫切需要的"},{"start":1375.598,"end":1403.854,"text":"在去年的5月31號我們卓院長的施政方針的口頭報告裡面也特別提到落實原住民族基本法在這個背立原住民族自治的推動然後院長在當天的報告裡面也提到健全原住民族土地的法治這裡面都提到我們看這個中華民國憲法徵修條文"},{"start":1406.132,"end":1431.581,"text":"這個特別提到國家因於民族意願保障原住民族的地位及政治參與對於土地的部分也特別提到也就是跟自治跟土地我們今天就談這兩個主題這個我們陳水扁總統在還沒有原住民族基本法之前"},{"start":1432.662,"end":1458.357,"text":"在民國91年10月19號陳水扁總統跟原住民族簽訂了新夥伴關係再肯認的協定為什麼叫再肯認呢事實上我們陳水扁總統在參選總統的時候就跟我們原住民族各族的代表簽了這個協定他當選總統之後"},{"start":1460.157,"end":1486.726,"text":"再簽一次因為之前是候選人成為正式的總統之後上任之後簽了一個再肯認協定這個都有記錄歷史 Google都有了這裡面我們今天就談推動原住民族自治就是這個部分當然這裡面有提到原住民族土地恢復部落及原住民族傳統領域土地這個部分"},{"start":1490.199,"end":1512.633,"text":"後來民國94年2月5號通過了原住民族基本法原住民族基本法94年2月5號通過今年正好是第20年這原住民族基本法第四條規定政府應依原住民族的意願"},{"start":1514.378,"end":1540.618,"text":"實行原住民族自治另以法律定制要訂定這個原住民族自治法然後第二十條也特別規定政府承認原住民族土地的前提這是第一項第二十條的第三項原住民族的土地要回復包括他的海域"},{"start":1541.448,"end":1568.624,"text":"原住民族的海域要制定原住民族土地及海域法民國94年2月5號通過之後啊無論是陳水扁總統或者是這個馬英九總統都有把這個土海法或者是相關自治法送到立法院但是送到立法院的時候都已經很晚了都是"},{"start":1570.069,"end":1598.234,"text":"立法院即將借期的時候即將借期的時候所以就每一次都借期不聯繫借期不聯繫所以又重新退回是這樣的一個情形我們蔡英文總統在當選之後就職之後105年8月1號向原住民組道歉也做了非常重要的承諾"},{"start":1600.083,"end":1627.472,"text":"蔡總統說我們會加快腳步將原住民族最重視的原住民族自治法原住民族土地及海域法盡快的會很快的送請立法院的審議所以當時的行政院秘書長當時105年6月27號在司法法治委員會做報告的時候特別提到"},{"start":1629,"end":1650.086,"text":"本院將在下個會期提出原住民族土地及海域法下個會期以105年6月27號下個會期就是106年的2月開始就新的會期所以這個部分而且還兩次"},{"start":1651.842,"end":1671.141,"text":"兩次承諾105年剛是6月105年的7月又是第二次承諾會很快的送行立法院來審議所以我們綜合這些"},{"start":1672.574,"end":1699.925,"text":"我們行政院應該要遵守就是要請行政院遵守第一個 中華民國憲法徵修條文遵守憲法這是最重要的這是第一個第二個 陳水扁總統代表中華民國政府以延續民主簽訂那個協定如果按照條約締結法協定就是條約了"},{"start":1701.957,"end":1730.455,"text":"按照這個條約締結法的定義條約就是決定就是條約這第二個第三個中華民國的法律原住民族基本法也規定的這麼明確然後中華民國的總統蔡英文總統也向原住民族承諾然後行政院"},{"start":1732.773,"end":1760.465,"text":"行政院也在立法院兩次先是會很快的而且有定個時程然後我們卓院長你的在去年的5月的施政報告裡面也有提到所以這個院長這個其實草案都有草案都有當初草擬的時候我是"},{"start":1761.072,"end":1786.438,"text":"第一個我是處長的時候我是企劃處處長的時候然後這個圖海法原住民族土地及海法的時候我是已經副主委邀請各部會是審查所以才會送到行政院送到立法院院長可以說今年年底以前可以嗎"},{"start":1787.145,"end":1813.565,"text":"好 跟委員報告委員所關心的原住民自治法的草案還有您關心的這個土海法都是五進五出跟四進四出在大院的審查但是這這麼多年來政府對原住民族的身分認定權利的促進還有文化的保存一直在持續進行當中但關於這個自治的部分關於行政區劃還有它的權限還有財政劃分等等"},{"start":1814.54,"end":1814.76,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":56,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（14時47分）立法院院長、卓院長以及各部會首長。有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長好，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝你，每次我們到花蓮，你都是從頭到尾，每次都全程提供很好的意見，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：首先還是要謝謝卓院長及政務委員，還有各部會首長到花蓮光復鄉提供非常多的支持及協助。我們今天先談馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩造成的這些事項，我們先看花蓮縣光復鄉嚴重的災害，今天不談責任，只談主管單位。第一個人民傷亡，人民傷亡第一個就是因為沒有完全撤離，主管單位包含中央、縣府、鄉公所到村長，我們也謝謝季政務委員已經做了一次非常好的演練，這個都可以作為其他縣市共同的參考。人民傷亡的第二個原因是應該防範堰塞湖潰壩或溢流，這個主要是中央主管單位。第三個是堤防應修築加固加高，這個也是中央政府主管單位。第二個嚴重災害、災情就是房屋淹水、土石、家具沖毀、汽車、機車沖毀、農田、農作物淹埋土石，還有包括很多的像教堂、公共設施，這個都是跟撤離沒有關係，與撤離無關，主要原因當然是應該防範堰塞湖潰壩或溢流，這是中央政府主管。第二個原因，堤防應加高加固，這個部分包括河床疏濬，這是中央政府為主管單位；第三個重大的災情是馬太鞍溪橋被沖毀，當然主要是應防範堰塞湖潰壩或溢流，這也是中央政府為主管單位。","我們看現行「國有林地堰塞湖應變標準作業程序」的規定，你看只有林務局，就是現在的農業部林業署跟各林區管理處主管，這部分我們都必須要去檢討。我們看到緊急應變階段，這是第二階段──緊急應變階段，還交給林管處召開應變小組，所以這個應該要提高層級。另外，到了第三階段的時候，也不過是由林務局，就是現在的林業署負責召開諮詢會議，研商堰塞湖之工程處理方案、警戒撤離對策，這個部分也是層級不高，需要去檢討提高，當然很重要的就是要有經費，這個沒有經費。","所以我們看堰塞湖緊急工程的處理，包括緊急抽水、緊急排水，緊急排水就是要開挖，這裡面寫得很清楚，這是最有效的方法，讓堰塞湖壩體開挖溢流水道。另外就是降低天然壩之壩體高度（即壩頂要挖降），這部分也是一個重點，但最主要是經費，這會涉及到經費，所以河道疏濬與整治工程也都是一樣，會涉及到經費，在這樣的情況之下，本席特別請院長能夠將應變標準作業程序提高為法律或法規命令的位階，並且可以動支行政院第二預備金。這個法律授權可以在哪裡呢？也許可以在災害防救法增列一條，再授權訂定一個辦法，是不是可以朝這個方向去努力？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，感謝委員的用心。關於整個堰塞湖的情況，包括復原等等，本來我們是有一個相關的指引作為各種依據，現在因為看到這一次的堰塞湖事件，農業部已經在提升它的法律位階，未來在災防法裡面會把它納進來，所以委員所建議的這個部分，等於是我們現在在做的，雖然目前是在林務局作為主管單位，但是從第二天開始，我們就成立了中央應變中心，也到現場去，相關必須要動用到的經費，也都會隨時支應。現在我們又有更多的特別預算可以來支應，這都已經是現行制度跟現行方法了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝院長，我們就修正災害防救法，增列一條，能夠授權訂定一個更完善的法規命令。","我們看馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩或溢流的個案，根據農業部林業署，也就是林務局的資料，這個資料寫得很清楚，92年就開始有崩塌現象，狀況嚴重是從109年開始，支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大，有時有蓄水，有時沒有蓄水。113年，也就是去年，康芮颱風後支流右岸由其下游側開始有局部崩塌。這個部分就是我們從個案去檢討，就可以讓未來有更好的因應機制。本席太晚知道了，本席是8月中旬之前，差不多8月初的時候從新聞上知道，所以我在8月13號在韓院長主持丹娜絲颱風特別條例時，我提出附帶決議，就是要請行政院督導行政院公共工程委員會、農業部及經濟部，第一個開挖溢洪道，第二個修築堤防、固床工程，在這個附帶決議裡面寫得很清楚。這個附帶決議8月15日在立法院通過了。我本人在8月20日的時候看到新聞，林業署的資料說，都沒有下雨的話，10月初就會溢流。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以我8月20日緊急發會議通知邀請行政院災防辦，還有公共工程委員會、農業部、經濟部召開緊急會議，我作出了一個決議，也就是請各機關要依立法院的附帶決議趕快進行，當然就是開挖溢洪道、修築堤防、固床工等等。在這樣的情形之下，當然我們看事後卓院長多次視察，然後各部會也緊急做了非常多的工程，譬如說以經濟部來講，短期臨時堤防10月5日就完成，當然就是經費的問題、層級提高的問題，從這邊就可以顯示出來。緊急疏濬工程像這樣的總共加起來經費差不多40億，所以跟經費、跟層級的提高都有關係。","我們看農業部的報告，農業部在10月25日向院長所做的報告裡面也提到施工便道要從光復林道、萬榮林道或馬太鞍溪溪床，然後壩體降挖、降低水位、壩體穩定等也都是需要經費，當然這裡面等一下我們可以討論，就是說農業部的報告裡面，方案一是從光復林道19K開設上去13公里，200個工作天，坡度較平穩；方案二是從萬榮林道上去，長度2.3公里，坡度比較陡，所以很快就有相關的規劃跟分析。","我們看整個堰塞湖，如果看國際三大案例，比較相近的應該是案例三：完全用挖掘引流，這個是美國以陸軍工兵團動用大量挖土機或推土機等重型設備，開鑿一條人工溢洪道，這個是我們可以參考國外的案例。","本席不是這方面的專業，但是我在8月22日召開緊急會議的時候，當時建議農業部協調國防部用空軍直升機載運中型或小型挖土機，挖土機不是整個載，其實它是可以組裝的，零件可以組裝的，當然要看地形、地貌。"],["卓院長榮泰：地質的問題，很鬆的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，這個都是要去觀察，當然我只不過是建議，那個地形、地貌如果真的挖土機沒有辦法的話，只好就比照幾十年前，幾十年前的方式就是用人工，用空軍直升機載人工。所以這些都是可以去考量的部分，因為我們也必須考量這樣的林道這麼長，要把整個林道拓寬，相關的機械才可以上去，對山林的保護是不是會有影響都必須評估，這個我只是給農業部參考。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點簡單跟委員報告：第一個，當時我們也想到降挖、空降去降挖或者虹吸管，另外一個是疏濬，但是任何方式所需要的時間在10月底都不可能完成，因為那個壩體太大了，依照我們的研判，10月底它會自然溢流出來，所以就是嚴加監控，這個部分的研判應該是沒有錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，這個我們不是專業，我只不過是建議啦，而且剛才我特別提了，我們怎麼樣提早因應……"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就以馬太鞍溪堰塞湖來講，如果是從109年，時間就很長了，所以這個部分它只要有的時候……就像現在的立霧溪馬上就可以，當然它不一樣，我們只不過是建議……"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部是長期在觀測，當時它的量體還那麼小，比方說現在尖石鄉的泰崗溪也有，但是不足以我們去做一個緊急的處分。但是在9月中的時候，行政院的政務會議就正式排定一個堰塞湖的報告，當時我們就提出剛剛的三個方式以及時間點，在那個時間決定就是要嚴密地監控它，如果有狀況，我們採取應急的措施，但是也要求當地要進行疏散的演練，這個部分可能是有一點時間上的落差。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：未來的應變作業程序或是法規，就是要一開始有發現的時候就要去處理，就以這個來講，如果109年就開始的話……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員稍微補充一下，就是以這次花蓮的馬太鞍溪跟立霧溪兩個堰塞湖來比較，因為其本身堆積出來的壩體性質不一樣，像立霧溪，我們就用降挖的方式、引流的方式……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道、我知道。"],["陳部長駿季：因為它的地質是適合這樣的，但馬太鞍是以泥沙為主，而且那時候的天氣經常下雨，土石非常鬆軟，是沒有辦法有任何可能的方式去處理，所以我們才用嚴密的監控，然後對下游儘速做疏散撤離。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有，我沒有要談責任啦，我是建議……"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是責任，我只是這樣說。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就是說要請國防部協助相關的直升機，最起碼去了解整個地形，好不好？當然我沒有說你的方案一或方案二是錯誤的，我沒有這樣講，只不過能夠有更好的，也許有更好的方式。","接下來是鐵路的部分，我們先以北迴鐵路來看，北迴鐵路的全線通車，這整個都是用人力，16座隧道主要是靠人工，我以北迴鐵路為例，當初北迴鐵路就是靠人工。","這次經濟部對於馬太鞍溪橋的相關因應，當然除了剛才講的堤防的部分，謝謝，就繼續努力了，現在就看鐵路的部分，光復隧道民國70年啟用，非常感恩、感謝當時鐵路局的規劃人員蓋了這個隧道，這一次馬太鞍溪橋斷了，很多都是透過這個鐵路來運送，這麼多的志工去那邊都是靠這個隧道，所以真的是要感謝。整個馬太鞍溪橋都已經沖毀了，我們看這個光復隧道，第一代的光復隧道在1981年、民國70年就通車，第二代隧道在2013年改為雙軌，第一代現在是空在那邊，所以我上次有跟部長建議，當然我只能建議，這個是不是有可能……我認為當初的臺鐵局能夠用挖的，它本來是在上面，他們一定是了解這個光復馬太鞍溪的問題，所以他們是往下，民國70年時他們就知道了。所以這個部分是給交通部找專家學者、專業人員去參考，我的建議是，有可能的話，那個公路橋、馬太鞍橋有沒有可能從下面？這個部分給交通部，我們都不是專業人員，就這樣。","接下來，特別條例今天通過了，行政院就要開始編列特別預算，主要是其他各部會，那也不要忽略掉原民會，我只不過是建議不要忽略掉原民會，因為以光復鄉來講，二分之一、53%的人口是原住民，所以除了各部會應該要依照特別條例來編列預算之外，因為光復鄉的原住民人口占了55.43%，這次特別條例所通過的第四條第一項第六款有文化資產與文化健康站、聚會所等相關的，包括教會、教堂，這次又有教堂受損，所以相關的文化產業振興各方面也請主計總處不要忘了，原民會也能夠在這300億裡面編列，就是這樣的一個建議。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，有，我們有編列，像剛剛你的講這些聚會所、教會、教堂都有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：非常謝謝。","接下來還是請交通部。"],["主席：麻煩再請交通部長備詢。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：關於宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫，部長已經被我質詢得很不耐煩。"],["陳部長世凱：不會！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也沒有不耐煩，你都很積極。"],["陳部長世凱：討論很多次。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個是0403地震所造成的，0403也就是113年4月3號，臺鐵在去年12月9號提報了宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫到交通部，交通部審查之後退回去再修正，然後本席在7月24號質詢部長，部長說我們會努力跟行政院爭取；本席也在8月7號質詢了前任的國發會主委，國發會主委說我們會審查，那時候行政院也交付給國發會。而國發會昨日已經審查完成了，國發會我都有在追蹤，因為我是公務人員、也辦理過研考，所以都有去追蹤，謝謝國發會已經審查完畢了，應該是下禮拜行政院就會收到這個計畫，要請院長能夠趕快核定，讓這個宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫能夠儘快開始執行，可以嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部在0403之後對花東地區的交通安全提升確實也在跟地方溝通，也做了一些工程上的規劃，國發會既然已經就內容予以審核，如果送到院這裡來，我會詳細的看，其中有需要再跟部裡面溝通或是跟國發會說明的，我會儘速完成。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我常常跟交通部部長舉北迴鐵路為例，北迴鐵路當時的財政狀況跟現在差很多，79.2公里幹線、22座大橋、16座隧道，6年就完工了，很多都是用人工，所以這個部分要請院長多多支持、趕快核定，謝謝院長剛才的承諾。","我們接下來就再請原民會。"],["主席：麻煩再請原民會備詢。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，原住民族自治跟原住民族土地及海域法是我們原住民族最迫切需要的，在去年5月31號，卓院長的施政方針口頭報告裡面也特別提到落實原住民族基本法，俾利原住民族自治的推動，然後院長在當天的報告裡面也提到健全原住民族土地的法制，這裡面都有提到，中華民國憲法增修條文特別提到國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族的地位及政治參與，對於土地的部分也有特別提到，也就是自治跟土地，我們今天就談這兩個主題。","在還沒有原住民族基本法之前，民國91年10月19號陳水扁前總統跟原住民族簽訂了新的夥伴關係再肯認協定，為什麼是「再肯認」呢？事實上，陳水扁前總統在參選總統的時候，就跟我們原住民族各族的代表簽了這個協定，他當選總統之後又再簽一次，因為之前是候選人，成為正式的總統之後、上任之後，簽了一個再肯認協定，這個都有紀錄，歷史、Google都有，我們今天就談推動原住民族自治這部分，當然這裡面也有提到原住民族土地、恢復部落及原住民族傳統領域土地這個部分。","後來民國94年2月5號通過了原住民族基本法，今年正好是第20年，原住民族基本法第四條規定政府應依原住民族的意願，實行原住民族自治，其相關事項另以法律定之，要訂定原住民族自治法；第二十條也特別規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利，這是第一項；第二十條第三項規定原住民族的土地要回復，包括原住民族的海域，要制定原住民族土地及海域法。","民國94年2月5號通過之後，無論是陳水扁前總統或者是馬英九前總統，都有把土海法或者是相關自治法送到立法院，但是送到立法院的時候都已經很晚，都是立法院即將屆期的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：屆期不續審。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為每一次都屆期不連續，所以又重新退回，是這樣的情形。蔡英文前總統在當選就職之後，105年8月1號向原住民族道歉，也做了非常重要的承諾，蔡前總統說我們會加快腳步，將原住民族最重視的原住民族自治法、原住民族土地及海域法儘快的、很快的送請立法院審議，所以當時的行政院秘書長在105年6月27號在司法及法制委員會報告的時候，特別提到本院將在下個會期提出原住民族土地及海域法，105年6月27號的下個會期，就是106年的2月開始新的會期，而且還兩次承諾。剛剛是105年6月，105年7月又第二次承諾會很快的送請立法院審議。","我們綜合這些，就是要請行政院：第一個，遵守中華民國憲法增修條文，遵守憲法是最重要的，這是第一個；第二個，陳水扁前總統代表中華民國政府與原住民族簽訂協定，如果按照條約締結法，協定就是條約了，按照條約締結法的定義，協定就是條約，這是第二個；第三個，關於中華民國的法律，原住民族基本法也規定得這麼明確，中華民國的總統──蔡英文總統也向原住民族承諾，行政院也在立法院兩次宣示會很快的送立法院審議，而且有訂個時程，然後卓院長在去年5月的施政報告裡面也有提到。院長，其實草案都有了，當初草擬的時候，我是企劃處處長，而原住民族土地及海域法（土海法）的時候，我已經是副主委，邀請各部會審查，所以才會從行政院送到立法院。院長，可以承諾嗎？今年底以前可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，委員所關心的原住民族自治法草案及土海法，在大院的審查都是5進5出跟4進4出，但是這麼多年來，政府對原住民族的身分認定、權利促進及文化保存都一直在持續進行當中。關於自治的部分，有關行政區劃、其權限及財政劃分等等，朝野之間、各部落之間目前還尚難趨於一致。不過既然如此，在現行的國家制度底下，你看，在選舉上，我們有保障名額；在專責機關上，各級政府都有原住民族的專責機關；而且在落實方面，我們有各種文化、各種保護政策，所以在精神上已經趨於一致，未來的工作我們再一起努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，院長，要加油啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，加油。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請李昆澤委員質詢，王正旭委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","許智傑","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李昆澤","王正旭","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","沈發惠","許宇甄","王世堅","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-31"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}