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16%一點日本也是14%而我們竟然"},{"start":305.793,"end":331.206,"text":"只有他們的一半可見我們在調查方面不是那麼仔細詳實那民間啊民間很多社福機構很多學者專家他們長年來這些公民團體他們有合作去做研究他們估出來確實我們台灣比歐美日是好很多但是"},{"start":332.489,"end":341.482,"text":"抓鄰近貧窮的民眾也是大概有14%之多那也就是如果14%有將近320萬位"},{"start":346.834,"end":373.473,"text":"我們台灣民眾其實是生活在貧窮線那320萬扣除我們有補助中低收入戶跟低收入戶扣掉以後等於我們還有250萬位市民是我們政府接不到他 補助不到他是不是沒看到 或者我們能力不足"},{"start":374.758,"end":403.38,"text":"我們的稅收財政我們沒辦法讓普羅大眾都享受到政府的補助可是當這些貧窮黑素他如果碰到家裡比方說重大的傷病重大的意外他們有需要的婚喪喜慶的時候他們可以說是這個求助無門所以這個部分我希望"},{"start":404.673,"end":426.2,"text":"院長 你要以我們行政院的高度最高行政機構要要求我們屬下屬各單位包括主機處的調查包括內政部 衛福部這些社福單位他們去詳實的跟22縣市政府的社會局"},{"start":428.228,"end":451.263,"text":"還有去了解去溝通去查出實際到底我們有多少貧窮黑素是需要我們去幫助的我們以緊急救難金也好以常設的經常性的對中低收入戶低收入戶的補助方式也好總是"},{"start":453.109,"end":473.651,"text":"我們在瀕臨貧窮邊緣的貧窮黑素民眾們這250萬位都是我們台灣的國民我們台灣的子民那我們也給他們也必要的幫助可不可以好 謝謝委員在一年多前"},{"start":474.935,"end":502.892,"text":"520上任的時候我說過經濟成長固然是國家發展的指標公平分配才是文明國家的象徵所以我們會注重的是整個國家的公平分配當然我知道我們現在科技發展之後很多在收入的各個層次上面呈現不同的成長的趨勢我們更注意到比較低弱勢的就像我們的產業線上我們除了高科技之外我們重視中小微企業一樣"},{"start":503.812,"end":512.54,"text":"委員所說的可能是我們現在對低收中低收一個認定標準的問題要不要整個社會來討論來檢討這個問題這個討論是對的現在在這個過程當中我們現在除了他們之外我們對所謂的邊緣戶保全戶或競評這個範圍當中我們會盡量用其他的社會支持跟家庭支持來予以協助院長"},{"start":531.977,"end":538.159,"text":"我們30年前當時公佈大概34年前公佈前20%財富擁有者是後20%比較貧窮者財富是16.8倍現在我們在4年前公佈已經擴大到前20%是後20%的66.9倍"},{"start":561.806,"end":588.039,"text":"而後20%的平均財富全家喔 全家的財富78萬只比30年前高1萬元如果說一個家庭四狗人家財富只有78萬那可以說是赤貧啦可以說是赤貧我認為這個部分確實"},{"start":591.753,"end":615.805,"text":"這裡面你有確實你有做事去年你修正了去年契約你修正了中小企業發展條例那這個部分對於加薪減稅的部分那當時你有聽進去我們立法院的建議你那時候把這個失業的門檻後這個部分有把它去除那有大幅度的對於加薪減稅那麼有"},{"start":618.386,"end":641.474,"text":"減除率有130%你提高到175%這是很好但是到現在為止這個成效一直還沒有統計數字給我們但是我以前在此之前加薪減稅推了4年多結果全國只有3738位民眾有"},{"start":645.971,"end":674.562,"text":"受到這個加薪減稅的鼓舞去加到薪這個跟我們全國1000萬位勞工而言3738位那等於近乎是零啦所以我希望在中小企業發展條例你去除掉失業率這一個設限之後你提高到減稅率175%以後我希望你們能夠積極去推動積極去鼓勵"},{"start":675.862,"end":693.085,"text":"各大中小企業加薪減稅那麼我也希望能夠儘早得到現在這個新條例修正以後的成效是怎麼樣好作為後續的推動跟修正好不好好的"},{"start":694.813,"end":722.894,"text":"謝謝委員我們現在也從剛剛說的家庭支持對於比較收入沒有那麼高的我們從如果你是單身的租屋青年以及三口之家四口之家以及三代同堂我們在減稅減負擔方面都有比過去更多明年也會跟今年一樣這就是說我們在沒有辦法馬上加薪的過程加到一個合理希望的程度我們用降低他的負擔用家庭支持"},{"start":723.414,"end":736.813,"text":"說服的支持來協助他還有一個就是新清安的政策這是明年七月就要到期我要跟你請問的就是說"},{"start":738.191,"end":753.581,"text":"你有沒有打算要把它延長還是就到明年7月為止我相信你很清楚清清安當然他有達到很多正面的到目前為止總共合帶了136,500戶金額一兆565億這麼高的金額那麼如果都實質幫到青年成家"},{"start":768.495,"end":795.306,"text":"無房無殼蝸牛首次來購屋那這些都還好可是我們大家都很清楚新金安三無啦無年齡限制無首購限制無收入限制沒有啊你只要名下無房就可以你現在只要名下無房"},{"start":796.736,"end":805.37,"text":"開放到說 欸比方說我有房我不管我幾個房我要用這個新清安之前我全部過掉我不是首購啊"},{"start":806.837,"end":829.743,"text":"所以無首購限制然後也沒有收入的限制竟然很多案例啊年收入400萬以上年收入400萬在我們國內個人年收入400萬這個算高所得喔他去申請新青安而且還拿到新青安的貸款補助這個"},{"start":833.586,"end":843.341,"text":"這個400萬以上的竟然高達3000多戶 天啊天啊 不可思議我們現在蓋受害住宅"},{"start":844.736,"end":866.631,"text":"先前各縣市政府蓋的國民住宅青年住宅公交住宅最大的一批最大的一筆也沒有到3000戶之多他隨隨便便就這麼樣就3000戶400萬年收入以上所以我個人那你如果要是查說"},{"start":869.566,"end":885.221,"text":"這個新清安另外的缺點是什麼我覺得這幾年來我們房價高漲我們這幾年來房價的高漲當然不全是因為新清安但是新清安或多或少推波助瀾"},{"start":887.031,"end":904.683,"text":"或多或少推波助瀾那麼我是希望說我今天就想問你說那你認為呢明年的七月到期你是要延長還是就此打住還是要做一些修正 你看法呢"},{"start":906.708,"end":934.918,"text":"報告委員 從清安到新興安它整個量 新興安現在已經有逐漸回溫的感覺了沒有像過去一段時間數量那麼大況且我們在去年經過我們的調整限定它一升一次限定它貸前必須要嚴審 貸後必須要管理它必須符合它的自用的用途之外之後它的數量已經在比較降溫當中了那明年時間到了之後我剛剛跟委員報告真的是說"},{"start":936.741,"end":954.627,"text":"基於青年居住正義的需要我們會檢討青青安現在之行上面任何的所有的困難我們會用新的方式來協助年輕人我就是等這一句話我們要給真正有需求的"},{"start":955.567,"end":984.36,"text":"需要講助 鼓勵 幫助的青年代我看尤其比方說青年要成家你像剛在日本他們有類似這樣子的貸款補助的話政府的補助他們都有設施有限制條件日本比方說他們包括說他們的國安問題之一也是他們出生率過低所以他們就是說你只要"},{"start":985.734,"end":1000.325,"text":"只要要結婚的青年那這最優先尤其你收入又不高的甚至日本政府他們避其功於一役就說你要申請薪金啊你連你買的住宅啊"},{"start":1001.346,"end":1027.308,"text":"政府會要求住宅品質這個住宅耐震係數夠不夠它是不是節能它是不是綠建築這些我認為都應該列入我們未來要補助我們要設置這些條件才對然後讓住宅的品質能提升如果我們如果像現在篩檢不嚴的話那個院長我們去年"},{"start":1028.424,"end":1050.489,"text":"一年喔 新清安一年這下來導致房屋的漲幅不管22縣市 但白區 但黃區啊平均漲幅啊它是前三年的總和啦在新清安之前的前三年啊漲幅的總和才等於這一年來"},{"start":1051.687,"end":1077.432,"text":"所以你看這多可怕因為就我剛剛跟你講的13萬6千戶有高達一兆565億這麼大的金額這就像直接像一顆原子彈投下去那個政府之大可能超過我們的一些評估跟想像好不好所以院長我希望能夠你能夠像你剛剛承諾的"},{"start":1078.922,"end":1102.763,"text":"如果心情安你要繼續我個人是認為就應該截止重新再針對這一個部分我們重新想清楚要不然至少沒有首購的限制沒有收入的限制這些沒有年齡的限制五十幾歲六十歲還在心情安"},{"start":1105.611,"end":1121.935,"text":"這個我都覺得這些應該要做一些修正好嗎是是我們會往這個方向來想還有有一點是好那莊部長你請回後院長不好意思那個我請法務部長麻煩請法務部長備詢院長我有針對死刑"},{"start":1127.769,"end":1156.932,"text":"執行啊因為我們還有36位已經判刑有的都甚至超過30年了這36位死刑犯那憲法大法官也釋憲了嘛他釋憲以後大法官有說設這四大條件這四大條件就是說最嚴重的犯罪情節最嚴謹的審判程序包括合意"},{"start":1157.671,"end":1171.331,"text":"要何玉婷一致的判決包括精神鑑定那針對這一些部分我跟法務部請教啦我說那這一些我們到底有做到這36位"},{"start":1173.769,"end":1192.424,"text":"那我們從事項之後這樣評估了一年36位評估了怎麼樣這個進度怎麼樣法務部長你給我的答覆是說具體個案情節本部實難提供敬請諒查部長我跟你說我完全不諒解執行 執行是法務部的責任"},{"start":1202.208,"end":1228.158,"text":"是你的責任這跟視線已經無關大法官講出來這四項條件最嚴謹的法律程序我們都給加害人給兇手強制辯護的不是嗎我們一年有15億法服的金額有12億有8成12億是花在加害人兇手的身上耶"},{"start":1229.782,"end":1243.133,"text":"這樣子還不夠嗎我只要你給我一個評估一個答案我跟你講那些主張廢死的人我送他八個字啦假仁假義欺世盜民因為很奇怪很不幸的我們國家馬前總統十幾年去跟人家簽了那個什麼兩公約"},{"start":1259.428,"end":1281.16,"text":"是跑出這一群廢死的莫名其妙他們集體的虛偽把簡單的事情複雜化部長我為什麼今天一定要問你在院長面前問你我要你一定要給我一個交代為什麼請部長說明但是我跟委員說我們已經有執行的"},{"start":1282.296,"end":1293.274,"text":"前例在了其他的就依照憲判的文藝精神我們現在做一些修法上的這個加強跟補助我們期待能夠維護社會的公義請部長來說明"},{"start":1296.516,"end":1322.437,"text":"我給你這個壓力不是針對你個人我對你個人完全不了解我是針對你這一個答覆你不是答覆我王世堅而已你是答覆我們整個立法院你是答覆2300萬國人同胞90%以上的我們的台灣人 人民大家都認為大家都認為我簡單講一句殺人償命"},{"start":1327.14,"end":1352.82,"text":"這是千古不變的定律不是嗎我們聽從那一些偽善者他們說我們要考慮這個加害人兇手的人權那請問被害人的人權在哪裡執行死刑本來犯罪罪與罰要等量什麼罪什麼罰那為什麼偏偏來到"},{"start":1354.215,"end":1374.528,"text":"最大二級罪無可安該執行的時候就折扣就不能執行這不是很奇怪嗎說你們說你們跟他們唱賀說什麼說這個加害人有什麼有教化的可能有他已經在懺悔了"},{"start":1384.025,"end":1395.934,"text":"部長我今天在院長面前正式再告知法務部一次死刑很重大的一項意義就是還被害人公道就是這麼簡單不要慷被害人之慨不是嗎我請問施德蔣這位女教師剛好到今年上個月剛好第十一年"},{"start":1412.206,"end":1424.771,"text":"11年石頭獎這個教師腦袋被兇手用榔頭敲破腦漿溢出還被吸進來這不是最嚴重的犯罪情節嗎然後他們一審三位一般啦一般在辯護自己出錢的你頂多請一位了不起兩位我們還派三位"},{"start":1441.209,"end":1469.449,"text":"都很高檔一等一的律師去幫他強制辯護結果拖11年每一次審判的時候這位女老師她先生跟她兒子那是一刀一刀要再一次加害他們一次憑什麼要懺悔可以加害人要懺悔可以執行死刑槍斃以後到英朝地府去懺悔嘛"},{"start":1470.421,"end":1490.784,"text":"不是這樣嗎所以部長我最後跟你講很嚴重的一點如果政府不公正的執行死刑的話我剛剛跟你講了90%的民眾支持應該執行死刑如果"},{"start":1492.341,"end":1520.747,"text":"我們還在慷被害人之慨還陪著那一群假人假義的人戴著偽面具的時候那法治社會會崩解法治會崩解啊那因為那這樣人民會要求說那你政府你把武器權還給我們我們就跟美國西部槍戰時代一樣人手一槍啊為什麼要保護我們的"},{"start":1521.772,"end":1549.724,"text":"家屬啊我們的好朋友啊我們家屬好朋友被欺負了那我們自己去討回來是這樣子嗎所以我跟你講嚴重性我們人民給政府這個公權力公權力的前提是要建立在公信力政府有沒有公正無私的執法所以今天我特別問部長"},{"start":1551.653,"end":1570.88,"text":"你能不能給我一個比較具體完整面對人民的要求強烈要求之下面對人加害家屬的要求之下你給我一個比較比較公正簡單的回覆"},{"start":1572.884,"end":1597.921,"text":"我想這部分現在還有36位未決的確定的死刑犯這部分現在是由最高檢察署在依憲判意旨來做一個審查我想委員這部分我們可以用更詳細的書面資料再跟委員做一個報告我想這部分還要再做一個依憲判意旨來檢視委員講的"},{"start":1600.723,"end":1626.633,"text":"宪判意旨那四个要件那我想这个我们还是要审慎那因为这部分我想我们也是执行就一位死刑犯了那我想我们会再做一个检视那另外委员刚刚有提到那个施多奖老师那个部分那个是法院后来的一个改判的那我想在执行死刑这部分我想我们还是会依照宪法宪判的意旨以及我们"},{"start":1627.613,"end":1651.981,"text":"呃這些的相關的部長如果說照你說的對啦執行這個我給你們喝彩拍拍手鼓掌這個很好但是如果照這個進度左院長上任來這一年半執行了一位那如果照這樣另外36位執行完的話可能我們在場的人可能都做鼓了這36位還沒執行完"},{"start":1652.469,"end":1676.076,"text":"我們會死得比他們早這對嗎我告訴你齁 部長千萬記住一句話我為什麼說不要看被害人之慨因為因為只有被害人跟家屬有原諒的權利其他人 尤其政府"},{"start":1677.287,"end":1705.075,"text":"我們沒有原諒的權利我們就公正執法就好不是嗎所以你這個回答也還是不夠不夠直接啦我還是聽不懂我還是聽不懂我還是聽不懂你執行不執行你這樣好不好我也不浪費大家時間你會後你把到底高檢高檢署是你們管的最高檢署現在是最高檢在審查中一線最高檢不是你們管嗎這部分我們再來了解"},{"start":1706.963,"end":1729.065,"text":"我們要的不多啦至少我們只是想了解那你省的這36位省的怎麼樣就我剛剛講的四大要件我可以講其實法律上精神鑑定其實也是他們託罪的一個我講最難聽的就算兇手真的精神障礙心智缺陷坦白講"},{"start":1731.721,"end":1750.227,"text":"他精神障礙他心智缺陷那人家就活該倒霉被他殺嗎有精神障礙有心智缺陷他不會去住精神病院嗎他家屬沒有責任應該把他們管好嗎讓他們出來亂害別人可以這樣嗎"},{"start":1752.111,"end":1776.887,"text":"各位委員報告齁 因為我們這個並沒有廢死齁那這個依法執行 依法判決這部分齁那個執法人員也必須要用法律的一個規定表面上講沒有廢死齁來做一個執行院長的心意 我大概知道啦阿你的心意齁 已經很清楚你現在已經答覆我們的嘛就是表面上沒廢死其實在你心裡面已經廢死了好 我希望你給我一個你具體的給我一個答覆"},{"start":1781.67,"end":1790.356,"text":"因為依照憲法的要求他要求行為人在行為時就審、審判時以及執行的時候都不能有精神"},{"start":1793.108,"end":1811.677,"text":"這個喪屍的這個種種的問題我預測他們下一步啦所以必須要做這些程序他們會集體的跟你們說他們拒絕現在再一次精神鑑定這是我預測的啦我認為下一步要強制鑑定我時間有限部長我希望能夠看到你更具體的答覆給我好不好時間暫停你請回時間暫停王委員要請哪一位"},{"start":1821.508,"end":1843.538,"text":"我喝口水你可以 不是流氓 可以喝水我不是流氓 我要多喝一口時間暫停那個"},{"start":1844.85,"end":1869.495,"text":"院長還有一件你這一點是有做得不錯啦因為你至少給我完整的答覆了就是去年我說在重大的天災像颱風以去年康瑞颱風而言放假前一週給我詳細的數字就是對於我們身葬者他們的照顧怎麼辦因為我們的居服務員他們也有本身颱風"},{"start":1871.235,"end":1885.665,"text":"的時候也有安危的問題所以這個居留服務員去照顧他們尤其失能等級在七級八級而且又是獨居的那等同於如果沒有人去照顧他們等同於另一次"},{"start":1887.052,"end":1903.173,"text":"死刑一樣所以那你有把至少你有把詳實的數字給我那這個比例你這一年來確實有提升了不過我覺得可能還來不及還不夠那麼基於說屈服員"},{"start":1906.834,"end":1934.326,"text":"由中央跟各社會縣市政府去溝通是不是如果有重大天災台風那等於是由這一個災情發布以後我們可以透過各社會單位通知獨區的失能者障礙者把他們集中照顧這是要不然乾脆用這個辦法否則再多的區域不允許"},{"start":1944.799,"end":1949.405,"text":"就像剛剛講的數字有增加沒錯但是還是不夠好不好尤其獨居者好謝謝王世堅委員令人感動的質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長各部會議相關首長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（17時45分）謝謝主席，你化解了沒出息的尷尬。請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：卓院長你辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會，大家都努力。"],["王委員世堅：我看到你這一年半來戮力從公，我也想在今天我們又再度碰面的時候送你兩件禮物，一個是望遠鏡，我希望你的施政能夠高瞻遠矚，一個是放大鏡，我希望施政能夠觀察細微，也就是我們全面性的執政就要全面性的高瞻遠矚、觀察細微，我希望這兩項禮物你就帶著，放在院長辦公室，時時刻刻，每天提醒你，我們要帶領我們政府邁向高瞻遠矚的施政，但同時我們也要體恤民意，觀察細微，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我會謹記剛剛委員這段話。"],["王委員世堅：在高瞻遠矚的部分，我希望我們中央政府能夠不分中央、地方，比方說這一次我們要引進第二座護國神山──NVIDIA輝達，以現在所看到、先前碰到的一些障礙而言，可能我們中央政府也要出手，擴大這個法律合約的解釋，讓臺北市政府能夠放手去做。"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["王委員世堅：這一點是我們國家、我們政府要高瞻遠矚的地方。至於要觀察細微的地方，這幾年來，我們國家確實富裕了，民間也確實富裕了，股票非常好，可是我們隱藏的貧窮黑數卻是增加了，卓院長，並不是全國2,300萬人每個人都在玩股票，沒有嘛！並不是每一位國民都買賣股票，買賣股票的也不是每一位都賺錢。在這樣的情況下，賺錢有運氣的問題、有能力的問題，可是永遠都有一群我們沒看到、在基層默默辛苦生活的民眾。","我根據中央給的資料，有得到我們政府補助的中低收入戶跟低收入戶大概是2.3%左右，大概53萬人左右，但是主計處另外評估了，我們全國大概有7.5%的民眾是鄰近貧窮線，這個7.5%就高達170萬，而7.5%並沒有辦法完全顯示出現在社會真正貧窮的人數，因為世界像歐、美、日國家，他們都在15%、16%，低一點的日本也是14%，而我們竟然只有他們的一半，可見我們在調查方面不是那麼仔細、詳實。","民間很多社福機構、很多學者專家，長年來與這些公民團體有合作去做研究，他們所估出來的，確實臺灣比歐、美、日是好很多，但抓鄰近貧窮線的民眾也大概有14%之多。也就是，如果是14%，有將近320萬位臺灣民眾其實是生活在貧窮線，320萬扣除有補助的中低收入戶及低收入戶以後，等於還有250萬位市民是政府接不到、補助不到的，是不是沒看到或者我們能力不足？我們的稅收、財政沒辦法讓普羅大眾都享受到政府的補助，可是當這些貧窮黑數如果碰到家裡比方有重大的傷病、重大的意外，他們有需要婚喪喜慶的時候，可以說是求助無門。","所以這個部分，我希望院長要以行政院的高度，最高行政機構要要求下屬各單位，包括主計總處的調查，包括內政部、衛福部這些社福單位，他們去詳實的跟22縣市政府的社會局去了解、去溝通、去查出實際到底有多少貧窮黑數是需要我們去幫助的。我們以緊急救難金也好，以常設的、經常性的對中低收入戶、低收入戶的補助方式也好，總是對在瀕臨貧窮邊緣的貧窮黑數民眾們，這250萬位都是臺灣的國民、臺灣的子民，我們也給他們必要的幫助，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，在一年多前，520上任的時候，我說過經濟成長固然是國家發展的指標，公平分配才是文明國家的象徵，所以我們會注重的是整個國家的公平分配。當然我知道我們現在科技發展之後，很多在收入的各個層次上面呈現不同的成長趨勢，我們更注意到比較弱勢的，就像在產業界上，除了高科技之外，我們也重視中小微企業一樣。委員所說的可能是我們現在對低收、中低收一個認定標準的問題，要不要整個社會來討論、檢討這個問題？討論是對的，但在這個過程當中，除了他們之外，我們對所謂的邊緣戶、保全戶或近貧的範圍當中，會儘量用其他的社會支持跟家庭支持來予以協助。"],["王委員世堅：院長，大概34年前公布前20%財富擁有者是後20%比較貧窮者財富的16.8倍，現在我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該拉大了。"],["王委員世堅：在4年前公布的已經擴大到前20%是後20%的66.9倍……"],["卓院長榮泰：拉大了。"],["王委員世堅：而後20%的平均財富，全家喔！全家的財富是78萬，只比30年前高1萬元，如果一個四口家庭的財富只有78萬，可以說是赤貧啦！我認為這個部分確實是這樣。這裡面確實你有做事，去年7月你修正了中小企業發展條例，對於加薪減稅的部分，當時你有聽進去我們立法院的建議，有把失業門檻這個部分去除，有大幅度的對於加薪減稅……減除率130%，你提高到175%，這很好！但是到現在為止，這個成效一直還沒有提供統計數字給我們。在此之前，加薪減稅推了四年多，結果全國只有3,738位民眾有受到加薪減稅的鼓舞而加到薪，這對我們全國1,000萬位勞工而言，3,738位等於近乎是零，所以我希望你在中小企業發展條例，去除掉失業率這一個設限、提高減除率到175%以後，你們能夠積極去推動、積極去鼓勵各大中小企業加薪減稅。那麼我也希望能夠儘早得到現在新條例修正以後的成效是怎麼樣，好作為後續推動跟修正的參考，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，可以，謝謝委員。我們現在也從剛剛說的家庭支持，對於收入比較沒有那麼高的，如果你是單身的租屋青年、四口之家以及三代同堂，我們在減稅、減負擔方面都有比過去更多，明年也會跟今年一樣，就是說我們在沒有辦法馬上加薪的過程，先加到一個合理需要的程度，我們降低他的負擔，用家庭支持、稅負的支持來協助他。"],["王委員世堅：好，院長，還有一個就是新青安的政策，明年7月就要到期，我要請問你的就是，你有沒有打算要把它延長，還是就到明年7月為止？我相信你很清楚，新青安當然有達到很多正面的，到目前為止，總共核貸了13萬6,500戶，金額1兆565億，這麼高的金額。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員世堅：如果都有實質幫到青年成家、無房、無殼蝸牛、首次購屋族，那這些都還好，可是我們大家都很清楚，新青安「三無」啦！無年齡限制、無首購限制、無收入限制，天啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有首購限制。"],["王委員世堅：沒有啊！你現在只要名下無房就可以，開放到比方說我有房，不管我有幾間房，我要用這個新青安之前，我全部過掉，我不是首購啊！所以無首購限制，然後也沒有收入的限制，竟然很多案例年收入400萬以上！在我們國內個人年收入400萬，這個算高所得喔！他去申請新青安，而且還拿到新青安的貸款補助，400萬以上的竟然高達三千多戶，天啊！不可思議！我們現在蓋社會住宅，先前各縣市政府蓋的國民住宅、青年住宅、公教住宅，最大的一批、最大的一筆也沒有到3,000戶之多啊！它隨隨便便就這麼樣，就有3,000戶年收入達400萬以上。你如果查新青安另外的缺點是什麼？這幾年來我們房價高漲，當然不全是因為新青安，但是我覺得新青安或多或少推波助瀾啦！我是希望……我今天就想問你，那你認為呢？明年的7月到期，你是要延長，還是就此打住，還是要做一些修正，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，從青安到新青安，現在的新青安已經有逐漸回溫的感覺了，沒有像過去一段時間數量那麼大，況且我們在去年經過調整，限定他一生一次，限定他貸前必須要嚴審、貸後必須要管理，且必須符合自用用途之後，其數量已經在降溫當中。明年時間到了之後，我剛剛跟委員報告的是，基於青年居住正義的需要，我們會檢討新青安現在施行上面任何的困難……"],["王委員世堅：是啊、是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會用新的方式來協助年輕人。"],["王委員世堅：是，院長，我就是等這一句話，我們要給真正有需求的……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯！"],["王委員世堅：需要獎助、鼓勵、幫助的青年貸款，尤其比方說新青年要成家，像在日本，他們有類似這樣的貸款補助、政府的補助都有設置限制條件。比方說，包括日本的國安問題之一也是出生率過低，所以只要是結婚的青年就最優先，尤其收入又不高的，甚至日本政府畢其功於一役，就是你要申請新青安，連你買的住宅，政府會要求住宅品質，這個住宅的耐震係數夠不夠、是不是節能、是不是綠建築，這些我認為都應該列入，對未來要補助的，我們要設置這些條件才對，讓住宅品質能提升。如果像現在篩檢不嚴的話……院長，去年實施新青安一年下來，導致房屋的漲幅，不管在22縣市區的蛋白區、蛋黃區，平均漲幅是前三年的總和，即新青安之前的前三年漲幅的總和才等於這一年，所以你看這多可怕，就我剛剛跟你講的13萬6,000戶，有高達1兆565億，這麼大的金額，像一顆原子彈直接投下去，那個振幅之大，可能超過我們的一些評估跟想像，好不好？","院長，我希望你能夠像剛剛承諾的，如果新青安要繼續，我個人是認為應該截止，針對這一個部分，我們重新再想清楚，要不然至少思考沒有首購的限制、沒有收入的限制、沒有年齡的限制，像五十幾歲、六十歲還在申請新青安，我都覺得這些應該要做一些修正，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是，我們會往這個方向來想。"],["王委員世堅：好，莊部長，請回。院長，不好意思，我請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩請法務部長備詢。"],["王委員世堅：院長，針對死刑的執行，因為還有36位已經判刑，有的甚至都超過30年。對36位死刑犯，憲法大法官也釋憲了，在釋憲以後，大法官有設四大條件，這四大條件就是最嚴重的犯罪情節、最嚴謹的審判程序，包括合議庭一致判決、精神鑑定。針對這一些部分，我跟法務部請教，到底從釋憲之後，這樣評估了一年，這36位評估的怎麼樣、進度怎麼樣？法務部長給我的答復是「具體個案情節，本部實難提供，敬請諒察。」部長，我跟你說我完全不諒解！執行死刑是法務部的責任、是你的責任，這跟釋憲已經無關。大法官講出來的這四項條件，最嚴謹的法律程序，我們都給加害人、給兇手強制庇護了，不是嗎？法扶一年有15億，有12億、八成是花在加害人、兇手的身上，這樣子還不夠嗎？我只要你給我一個評估、一個答案，我跟你講那些主張廢死的人，我送他8個字「假仁假義，欺世盜名」，因為很奇怪！很不幸的我們國家，馬前總統十幾年前跟人家簽了那個什麼兩公約，就跑出這一群廢死的，莫名其妙！他們集體的虛偽，把簡單的事情複雜化，部長，我為什麼今天一定要問你，在院長面前問你，我要你一定要給我一個交代，為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明，但是我跟委員說，我們已經有執行的前例在了，我們不是……"],["王委員世堅：有啊！執行一個了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，其他的就依照憲判的文義、精神，我們先來做一些修法上的加強及補助，我們期待能夠維護社會的公義，請部長來說明。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我給你這個壓力不是針對你個人，我對你個人完全不了解……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["王委員世堅：我是針對你這個答復，你不是答復我王世堅而已，你是答復我們整個立法院，你是答復2,300萬國人同胞，90%以上的臺灣人民。我簡單講一句，大家都認為殺人償命，這是千古不變的定律，不是嗎？我們聽從那一些偽善者說我們要考慮加害人、兇手的人權，那請問被害人的人權在哪裡？執行死刑……本來犯罪，罪與罰要等量，什麼罪、什麼罰，為什麼偏偏來到罪大惡極、罪無可赦，該死刑的時候就折扣、不能執行，這不是很奇怪嗎？你們跟他們唱和，說什麼加害人有教化的可能，他已經在懺悔了。","部長，我今天在院長面前正式再告知法務部一次，死刑很重大的一項意義就是還被害人公道，就是那麼簡單，不要慷被害人之慨，不是嗎？我請問獲師鐸獎的這位女教師，到今年上個月剛好遇害第11年了，這個教師腦袋被兇手用榔頭敲破、腦漿溢出，還被性侵害，這不是最嚴重的犯罪情節嗎？然後一審3位律師，一般在辯護，自己出錢的，頂多請一位，了不起兩位，我們還派3位，都很高檔、一等一的律師去幫他強制辯護，結果拖11年，每一次審判的時候，對這位女老師的先生跟她兒子，那是一刀、一刀又要再加害他們一次，憑什麼？要懺悔可以，加害人要懺悔可以，執行死刑，槍斃以後，到陰曹地府去懺悔，不是這樣嗎？部長，我最後跟你講很嚴重的一點，如果政府不公正執行死刑的話……我剛剛跟你講了，90%的民眾支持應該執行死刑，如果我們還在慷被害人之慨，還陪著那一群假仁假義的人戴著偽面具，那法治社會會崩解、法治會崩解啊！因為這樣人民會要求政府把武器權還給我們，我們就跟美國西部槍戰時代一樣人手一槍，為什麼？要保護我們的家屬、我們的好朋友，我們家屬、好朋友被欺負了，我們自己去討回來，是這樣子嗎？所以我跟你講嚴重性，我們人民給政府公權力，公權力的前提是要建立在公信力、政府有沒有公正無私的執法。","院長，今天我特別問部長，你能不能給我一個比較具體、完整……面對人民的強烈要求，面對加害人、加害家屬的要求之下，你給我一個比較公正……請簡單回復。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還有36位判決確定未執行的死刑犯，這部分現在是由最高檢察署在依憲判意旨來審查，針對委員要求的這部分，我們可以用更詳細的書面資料再跟委員報告。我想這部分還要再依憲判意旨來檢視委員講的憲判意旨的四個要件，我們還是要審慎；因為我們也執行了一位死刑犯，我們會再檢視。另外，委員剛剛有提到有關師鐸獎的教師案，那是法院後來改判，在執行死刑這部分，我們還是會依照憲法、憲判的意旨以及相關規定依法執行。"],["王委員世堅：部長，如果照你說的執行一位，這個我給你們喝彩、拍拍手、鼓掌，這個很好。照這個進度，卓院長上任以來這一年半執行了一位，如果照這樣，另外36位執行完，我們在場的人可能都作古了，這36位還沒執行完，我們會死得比他們早！這對嗎？","我告訴你，部長，千萬記住一句話，我為什麼說不要慷被害人之慨……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對沒有慷被害人之慨，我們還是依法審慎地執行。"],["王委員世堅：因為只有被害人跟家屬有原諒的權利，其他人尤其政府，我們沒有原諒的權利，我們公正執法就好，不是嗎？所以你這個回答也還是不夠直接，我還是聽不懂、我還是聽不懂、我還是聽不懂，你執行不執行……這樣好不好？我也不浪費大家時間，會後你把高檢署……高檢署是你們管的耶！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是最高檢在審查中，依憲判意旨的……"],["王委員世堅：最高檢不是你們管的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來了解。"],["王委員世堅：我們要的不多，只是想了解你審這36位審得怎麼樣，就我剛剛講的四大要件。我跟你講，其實在法律上，精神鑑定也是他們脫罪的一個理由。我講最難聽，就算兇手真的精神障礙、心智缺陷，坦白講，他精神障礙、心智缺陷，人家就活該倒楣被他殺嗎？有精神障礙、有心智缺陷，他不會去住精神病院嗎？家屬沒有責任應該把他們管好嗎？讓他們出來亂害別人，可以這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為我們並沒有廢死，所以依法執行、依法判決，執法人員也必須要依法律規定以及判決結果來執行。"],["王委員世堅：表面上講沒有廢死，院長的心意我大概知道了，你的心意已經很清楚，你現在已經答復我們了，就是表面上沒廢死，其實在你心裡面已經廢死……"],["卓院長榮泰：並非如此、並非如此。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是這樣，如果真的廢死的話，我不會執行死刑，這個要跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：我希望你具體地給我一個答復，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲判的要旨，它要求行為人在行為時、就審審判時以及執行時都不能有心神喪失等種種問題，都必須要分析，所以必須要做這些程序。"],["王委員世堅：我預測他們的下一步，他們會集體跟你們說，他們拒絕現在再一次精神鑑定，這是我預測的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員不一樣，這個是……"],["王委員世堅：所以我認為下一步要強制鑑定！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這整體有4個要件，這必須要對應的審認……"],["王委員世堅：我時間有限，部長，我希望能夠看到你更具體的答復給我，好不好？","時間暫停，你請回。"],["主席：時間暫停。","王委員要請哪一位？"],["王委員世堅：我喝口水。"],["主席：你不是流氓，可以喝。"],["王委員世堅：我不是流氓，我要多喝一口。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["王委員世堅：院長，還有一件，你這一點是做得不錯，因為你至少給我完整的答復了，就是去年我說在重大的天災，像颱風。以去年康芮颱風而言，關於放假前一週……你給我詳細的數字，就是對於身障者的照顧怎麼辦，因為居服員本身在颱風的時候也有安危的問題，所以當居服員去照顧他們，尤其失能等級在7級、8級而且又是獨居的，如果沒有人去照顧他們，等同於另一次的死刑一樣，至少你有把詳實的數字給我。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["王委員世堅：你這一年來，這個比例確實有提升了，不過我覺得可能還來不及、還不夠。基於居服員的身家安全，所以我認為是不是要考慮由中央跟22縣市政府溝通，如果有重大天災、颱風、土石流等災情發布以後，可以透過各社福單位通知獨居的失能者、障礙者，把他們集中照顧，是不是乾脆用這個辦法？否則再多的居服員，就像剛剛講的數字有增加沒錯，但是還是不夠，好不好？尤其獨居者。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員令人感動的質詢，謝謝；謝謝卓院長、各部會相關首長的列席，謝謝。","報告院會，我們休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續請葉元之委員質詢。","休息（18時17分）","繼續開會（18時23分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","許智傑","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李昆澤","王正旭","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","沈發惠","許宇甄","王世堅","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-31"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}