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江副院長各位委員先進今天行政院再度到大院進行財政收支劃分法附議案的報告說明這是在去年12月20號大院第11屆會期第14次會議三讀修正過後的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":1885.905,"end":1914.342,"text":"其中有部分條文行政院認為未來在整個執行的內容上面以及中央地方財政的分配上面都有相當大與現在的中央政府以及憲法精神相違背之處因此能夠懇請大院能夠同意附議重新的審視那麼講到法案的內容我必須先講一段歷史"},{"start":1916.345,"end":1931.718,"text":"在過去經省之前我們的中央跟地方財政劃分直轄市跟各縣市所佔的稅收的比例佔到28.9%省政府的部分佔到了11%中央佔了60.1%"},{"start":1943.123,"end":1971.118,"text":"初六的講就是省政府以及各縣市合起來月列佔了百分之四十中央佔了百分之五十這是在精審之前那麼精審之後縣市跟直轄市比例調整為百分之二十四點六而把省政府的部分移入到中央政府來舉"},{"start":1972.498,"end":2000.578,"text":"執行所以中央政府的比例達到75.4%那如果徵召大院這一次所通過的這些個預算那為現在我們的中央跟地方的比例出國來看會回到40%給地方60%給中央也就是說回到精神之前"},{"start":2001.718,"end":2026.856,"text":"但是經審之後那11%原屬於省政府的業務卻由中央繼續來執行這顯然是相當難為的一件事情所以如果要依照權跟錢市權要分分得很清楚有多少的經費"},{"start":2028.342,"end":2050.005,"text":"要多少的市權那麼應該我們理性的來討論原屬於省政府的這11%它的市權是要留在中央或是要回到地方如果要回到地方那各個縣市政府現在有這種地方上的人力跟能量來處理這些事情"},{"start":2051.004,"end":2079.077,"text":"那如果沒有的話把11%的錢挪到地方卻把事權留在中央這當然是自愛難行之處所以我們針對今天要請求大院來審議的這個部分容許之後我再詳細的說明但是我們依照憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第二款規定行政院"},{"start":2080.775,"end":2107.357,"text":"經過總統的核可來提醒大院復議我們就是希望基於財政收支劃分法的修改它是攸關到國家的財政跟市權的重分配跟地方均衡發展應該經過充分的討論而且應該要審慎的規劃因此今天向大院來提出這樣的復議請求所以我請就幾項重要的內容來向各位委員先進說明"},{"start":2108.459,"end":2136.7,"text":"第一個如果依照現在通過的新的財政收支劃分法調整各級政府的稅收劃分大幅削減了中央可運用的財源直接改變中央與地方間的財政結構卻為並同檢討中央與地方之事權分配造成中央政府施政項目無法順利推動或者繼續的推動下去延續"},{"start":2138.174,"end":2164.086,"text":"修正條文第八條第二項規定將所得稅提撥中央統籌分配稅款的比例由現在的10%提高為1%營業稅扣除統一發票給獎獎金之後40%提高到再扣除1.5%作為積增費用及統一發票給獎獎金之後的全部收入均由中央政府統籌分配"},{"start":2165.347,"end":2177.978,"text":"直轄市縣市跟鄉市那麼經114年度各項預算案資料涉算初估中央政府將減少經常性收入新台幣3753億元"},{"start":2181.981,"end":2196.153,"text":"這直接改變了中央與地方間的財政結構卻為並同討論中央與地方的事權分配衝擊中央施政的量能造成中央政府部分施政項目無法順利推動這是第一項第二項"},{"start":2197.734,"end":2218.27,"text":"修正统筹分配税款的分配方式它进一步扩大了城乡的差距背离财政收支划分法的立法本质且修正内容有所矛盾或欠缺具体的明确至爱难行其实财政收支划分法是依照宪法之精神是规定所定的它基本上性质是一部财政的宪法"},{"start":2219.11,"end":2240.534,"text":"要做變動必須要非常非常的慎重然這是修正條文第16條之一第三項第一款及第三款所定的直轄市及縣市離島三縣市之水平分配公式從普通統籌分配稅款可供分配的款項90.5%分配給直轄市及縣市這是不含離島2.5%分配給離島三縣市合計分配"},{"start":2249.417,"end":2277.982,"text":"款項是93%中人口指標及盈利事業營業額分別佔權重為45%跟30%這項合計起來高達75%所以會使人口稠密的商業發達縣市更具優勢進一步擴大城鄉的差距背離財化法調計財政營需均衡區域發展的立法本質"},{"start":2280.305,"end":2308.4,"text":"其次修正條文第16項之一第三項第一款有關普通統籌分配稅款可分配款項90.5%分配給直轄市及縣市款項的指標跟權數的計算該款的序文已經表明了不含離島但是在其中其他第1目第4目第5目的條文文字當中卻又以"},{"start":2310.195,"end":2329.492,"text":"佔全部直轄市及縣市計算與序文的內容有所矛盾而產生自愛難行而且餘數也沒有做分配另外在第三項第三款有關2.5%的分配離島三縣之間款項指標的全數的計算也跟上述一樣有不明確之問題"},{"start":2340.131,"end":2352.952,"text":"那麼修正條文第16條之一第三項第二目及第三款及第二目所定的序位分數沒有明確的規範它的定義跟計分方式而且"},{"start":2354.414,"end":2381.153,"text":"本次修正已刪除現行由財政部洽商中央主計單位主計機關及地方機關擬定中央統籌分配稅款分配辦法之規定財政部也無法依據訂定法律規命令具執行當然又發生自愛之處另外在修正條文第十六條第一及第三項第四款所定的分配"},{"start":2382.395,"end":2411.687,"text":"相正式的方式也為明確訂定其合計的項目指標以及權重也為具體明確授權由任何機關嚴定分配公式等等執行上也有困難另外在有關於16條之一第三項第一款第三目及第三款第三目所定佔全直轄市及縣市比例文藝也未增明確"},{"start":2413.447,"end":2419.702,"text":"其中這到底是全部的直轄市還是縣市還是鄉鎮市這個文藝上都有所矛盾"},{"start":2420.902,"end":2444.888,"text":"因此本市修正它是大幅的增加地方的自有財源財化法修正案第30條第三項有關中央政府不得減少給予地方政府之一般性補助款像金額之規定又重複而且不合理因為在修正條文第30條增訂第三項規定中央政府"},{"start":2446.144,"end":2459.431,"text":"給予地方政府之一般性補助款項金額不得少於修正施行前一年預算變劣數但是就一般性補助款而言他也沒有定義"},{"start":2460.899,"end":2480.985,"text":"合為一般性補助款的內容又本次的修正地方政府之自有裁員顯然大幅增加而且再重複要求中央政府不得減少給予地方政府的一般性補助款實在是非常不合理而且是絕對有重複之處"},{"start":2482.621,"end":2501.616,"text":"這次修正條文會影響各級政府稅客收入的預算編列以及稅款之籌劃化解為考量施行應有的準備作業期間對預算的秩序很難維持而且執行上已經發生困難"},{"start":2503.561,"end":2521.206,"text":"本次修正對於各級政府預算的籌編、課稅收入、化解與調整影響廣泛,但是自公布日施行,為考量各級政府預算籌編應有的準備作業期間,"},{"start":2523.993,"end":2551.974,"text":"即為周延執行予以地方政府協商施行日期對預算秩序的維持跟執行亦有障礙所以我們財務法法依照程序它現在已經是公佈而且已經在施行但是它顯然會對我們現在在討論的中央政府總預算會發生矛盾跟漢格之處那這個已經是存在的事實我們只有睜一隻眼閉一隻眼"},{"start":2554.062,"end":2577.208,"text":"財化法所定統籌分配稅款的補助款的機制原系為落實憲法第147條地方經濟之平衡發展為符合憲法第147條及財化法立法的意旨財化法的修正有在充分討論並且審慎規劃是必要財政收支發分法乃各級政府"},{"start":2578.616,"end":2602.89,"text":"財政收支如何劃分、調節、調劑以及分類的立法,舉所定的統籌分配稅款及補助款的財政調整機制,目的就在合理調劑地方財政營需,使較為貧瘠之地區能獲得正常的經濟發展,達成全民生活均足的目標。"},{"start":2604.266,"end":2631.761,"text":"然本次修正的內容與上述的目標恰恰相反既有前接各項自然難行之處我們如果一旦付諸執行更將與憲法第147條違背道而駛因此財政收支劃分法本項的修正不應該倉促而宜在充分討論並審慎的規劃尋求中央地方最大的共識讓分配的機制更真完整"},{"start":2632.848,"end":2659,"text":"鑑於本次三讀通過的財政收支方法部分條文修正案確實有自在難行之處如上所報告期盼能夠透過法律院附議的憲政程序懇請各位委員先進能夠再次審議法案的內容支持行政院所提的附議案通過民主的程序讓政府財政制度能更完善健全以上報告"},{"start":2659.96,"end":2681.356,"text":"懇請委員能夠鼎力支持我們希望副議案讓大院以及社會以及中央跟地方政府都能夠有重新審視來訂定一個可長可久可以合理執行的財政收支發分法這個才是未來推動中央均衡台灣最重要的一項工作以上報告 懇請支持 謝謝"},{"start":2691.839,"end":2714.926,"text":"謝謝卓院長的說明報告全院委員會我們現在進行詢答每位委員詢答時間15分鐘以疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問的委員如不在場我們視為棄權首先我們請傅坤祺委員徐宇珍委員翁曉琳委員三位聯合質詢時間45分鐘"},{"start":2743.826,"end":2756.49,"text":"主席早是不是請中華民國行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝女士請麻煩請主計長委員好"},{"start":2774.537,"end":2802.8,"text":"好謝謝這個主計長雖然您沒有提供這個114年度總預算經過立法院修正以後核定數到現在還沒有送到立法院來但是本席還是希望能夠克盡職守能夠把調整後的這個實際的這個核定數"},{"start":2804.827,"end":2831.379,"text":"要送到立法院來讓行政院跟立法院所有這些過去的干戈能夠盡快的化解各個部會啊盡快為人民來做事情好不好我們一定全力配合好謝謝所以我們再確認一下這個主計長113年度這個總預算立法院的核定數是兩兆8518億元"},{"start":2834.574,"end":2857.175,"text":"那一百一十四年度這個行政院送到立法院的預算總計額是三兆一千三百二十五億經過主計長審視以後立法院實際的這個核定數是三減的一千四百三十九億是不是"},{"start":2859.04,"end":2885.641,"text":"我們這裡面它有包含三部分你昨天有跟本席確認是吧這個數字是我們沒有包含1439億院長昨天行政院昨院長也在這裡報告是您試算出來1439億因為以往都有大包小那現在這個部分就是沒有大包小的話就會2076如果以大包小的話我們就會1439我只是在說明所以1439億"},{"start":2888.863,"end":2917.042,"text":"實際的刪減數所以3兆1325億送到立法院來我們審視以後扣掉這個刪減的這個之後核定數是2兆9886億元是不是所以啊依照這個主計長你送給立法院也是昨天 昨院長在這裡根據"},{"start":2918.967,"end":2947.434,"text":"您所試算的結果所以去年是兩兆8518億今年立法院的合定數是兩兆9886億所以今年的預算比去年增加了1368億這個就是主計長所審定的立法院給行政院的合定數我們要謝謝你的辛勞"},{"start":2948.39,"end":2974.601,"text":"因為委員報告這不是我審定的啦這是我們試算的因為我們審定的必須要以公佈的為主但是這一次立法院並沒有公佈這個總額度所以這個部分我們大家也沒辦法這是我們初步試算的一個結果沒有關係啦這個組計長初步試算的結果是今年比去年增加1368億"},{"start":2977.288,"end":3004.251,"text":"報告委員但是鄭家的項目不一樣因為我們刪減的項目有一些的項目是真的自愛難行那有的是全部被刪除所以現在是根本沒有經費可以支用那所以主要是通案刪減的部分那刪減的額度太高那有的被全數刪減那個再一次啊請主計長針對本席的問題回答本席當然會讓你有時間"},{"start":3005.992,"end":3033.059,"text":"來說有哪個部分是困難的但是請正確明白的回答行政院卓榮泰卓院長送到本院的這個總預算的附議案是很清楚送過來立法院的預算數是3兆1325億然後三減的預算立法院三減是1439億"},{"start":3035.419,"end":3059.361,"text":"所以這個行政院送來的版本是通過的預算是兩兆九千八百八十六億是嗎好是那請回答本席不用點頭的好不好是好那所以總樓台院長送過來的版本今年比去年的預算多了一千三百六十八億是嗎請告訴本席"},{"start":3060.146,"end":3079.42,"text":"事實上我們今年比去年是增加2800多億2800增加的項目和刪減項目是不同的請直接回答本席待會本席一定會有時間讓你來做說明但是請你明確的回答本席好不好這是立法院"},{"start":3080.492,"end":3103.449,"text":"我們問的問題就請你直接回答本席一定會給你時間讓你來做其他的說明因為本席會問好不好所以本席再請教一下所以114年度行政院所送來的總預算的複議案今年的預算是比去年合訂數是多了1368億是嗎"},{"start":3106.758,"end":3135.318,"text":"是增加一千三百多億但是問題就是說我們如果減掉兩千八千還是等於是減少主席長請你不要搶我的話好不好請你依問題回答所以本席在這裡謝謝你在這裡國會正式證實在國會明確的證實行政院送到立法院的總預算立法院"},{"start":3136.606,"end":3155.989,"text":"審議的結果今年比去年多了一千三百六十八億總數是兩兆九千八百八十六億給行政院來執行這已經是確定好來本席讓你一分鐘來說明一下哪裡有自愛耐性"},{"start":3156.889,"end":3173.861,"text":"因為今年我們增加2800多億那主要是增加公共建設還有條貸還有科技的一些預算相關的還有包括增加勞健保這些的等等但是三減我們1439的部分當然台電是1000億"},{"start":3177.563,"end":3202.234,"text":"那其他的439呢是因為有一些的它的一般的業務費通通被刪減掉是完全沒辦法執行造成我們行政機關在整個執行都沒有辦法有一些障礙然後連水電位都沒有辦法付像服務中心的部分那就必須要全部刪除所以就必須要關門所以這個部分我們也請立委員能夠考量我們這個難處謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":3206.556,"end":3234.044,"text":"主記長本席有聽到剛剛你所表達的有哪一些困難跟問題本席很高興今天你在這裡跟全國國會來清楚的表達但是本席也非常遺憾從1月21號立法院通過了總預算之後這個主記長我們只看到各部會首長來扮演網紅"},{"start":3235.76,"end":3263.846,"text":"來攻擊這個在野黨有沒有在過程當中主席長你有沒有帶隊各部會來到立法院跟各委員會還是說跟在野黨來協商有哪些自愛難行哪一些該怎麼修正有沒有討論過因為協商我們都有跟各黨團有去拜會啦你跟各黨團有拜會請問一下國民黨團總召是誰"},{"start":3268.195,"end":3291.481,"text":"請問一下你有沒有跟本席約時間來溝通有沒有有 但是有時候約不上時間本席在這裡很清楚的告訴你你沒有跟本黨團來約時間所以我希望主席長已經過了50天1月21號到現在國民黨沒有接到任何的訊息"},{"start":3292.725,"end":3317.139,"text":"本席待會會問問民眾黨 你有沒有去跟他們要求要協商主席長 在這裡是要說實話的所以本席在這裡要千萬的讓你了解立法院再三抗勝的問題 就是國家的亂象謠言治國 側翼台灣"},{"start":3319.6,"end":3347.317,"text":"所有的謊言不斷的在攻擊各部會首長閒命攻擊在野黨攻擊總預算說都沒有辦法執行我們給了您歷史上最高的兩兆九千八百八十六億比去年多一千三百六十八億但是鋪天蓋地的攻擊什麼什麼補助款育兒今天沒有老農今天沒有了我們都看到"},{"start":3348.325,"end":3373.297,"text":"不管是衛福部不管是農業部預算都比去年多剛剛主席長你也證實你也證實了可能是業務費的關係沒宣費的關係但是啊這個因果循環要了解為什麼在野黨要去刪減沒宣費跟刪減這些不應該的這些業務費因為"},{"start":3378.308,"end":3392.886,"text":"台灣不能再謠言治國 謊言台灣所有部會首長不能再當網紅側翼要很務實地告訴全國國人要說實話不能再鋪天蓋地的綠媒 綠團 綠嘴 綠側翼 綠網軍"},{"start":3397.048,"end":3423.053,"text":"在蠱惑我們的年輕人蠱惑這個社會把所有的謠言當過治國的方向所以我們要讓這個社會能夠清楚知道所有國家的施政是什麼我們監督的方向是什麼不能讓這些繼續塗害我們的下一代這就是我們的要求至於業務費被凍結的部分只要"},{"start":3423.792,"end":3453.094,"text":"清楚的明確的他的施政內容只要是符合一切的正規所有的凍結不只業務費都可以到立法院來申請解凍所以主計長請您寬心本席還是要特別強調特別強調有治安難行的部分可以向本院提出但是我很遺憾的本席非常遺憾國民黨非常遺憾"},{"start":3454.675,"end":3475.73,"text":"從1月21號總預算通過到現在我們必須在執行台上見面都沒有一個很明確的一個拜訪所以本席在這裡希望主席長你不管有什麼樣的困難多溝通好不好我可以再補充一下困難的一個問題嗎因為本席已經講過了"},{"start":3477.85,"end":3505.805,"text":"有困難可以溝通本席的大門永遠敞開國民黨隨時恭候好不好現在我們有因為時間主席我想請教一下在議場可以一直錄影嗎可以一直錄影嗎是不是可以請因為也跟主席報告因為很多地方就是因為我想我們國會應該要進步"},{"start":3507.54,"end":3533.049,"text":"因為地方議會都不容許這樣的情況因為已經有公播為了防止有所謂的胡亂剪接時間暫停為了防止有所謂的胡亂剪接 網軍側翼身為一個國會議員卻用這種側翼的形象 側翼的作為這是很羞恥的這個是有公播 所有都是公開錄音錄影"},{"start":3535.1,"end":3559.5,"text":"本來就應該以公播的版本為主提具體的就是說希望能夠不要我們本來就是有公播本來就是有公播的那個這樣子好不好各位委員各位委員我知道各位委員我想我們依然質詢委員提出他們的需求"},{"start":3560.612,"end":3584.47,"text":"跟他們的憂慮,希望不要能夠把他們錄影我們現場都有實況錄影,那就請各位能尊重一下好不好我們已經現場有實況錄影了,也有新聞媒體海內外都可以看得到"},{"start":3605.806,"end":3616.25,"text":"今天執行委員正式提出希望其他委員不要錄影這些執行委員尊重異常的軟硬體的設備再加上各地的新聞記者也都駐場"},{"start":3617.475,"end":3645.52,"text":"那我想各位委員就尊重一下諮詢的委員大家全力都可以互相好不好既然現場我們其實都已經有公播的畫面了為什麼還要在這邊錄影你有遵循我們的意見嗎"},{"start":3653.807,"end":3676.694,"text":"因為我是呼籲既然有質詢的委員提出我是純呼籲希望其他委員來尊重質詢的委員我沒有其他的意思那這個是互相因為等一下咧包括宗嘉賓委員你也要質詢那我也要尊重那個"},{"start":3677.944,"end":3678.684,"text":"問題我們時間是暫停的沒問題"},{"start":3717.39,"end":3732.957,"text":"那個院長本席在這裡向院長報告一下因為今天不是個人的施政總質詢今天是針對行政院所提出的才化法"},{"start":3733.823,"end":3762.807,"text":"跟總預算的附議案今天我們站在這裡是代表政黨而不是個人的諮詢今天是政黨所以我們為什麼聯合諮詢因為我們希望能夠問到正確真實的答案讓全國國人了解我們在這裡也希望受到尊重因為今天代表政黨的諮詢並不是個人的私政總諮詢所以我們希望得到一個起碼的尊重我想一個執政者"},{"start":3763.851,"end":3789.968,"text":"一個執政者要有一個基本的國會要有一個基本的風度國會要有一個基本的風度你們昨天沒有發聲嗎你們昨天沒有鬧場嗎你們昨天沒有鬧場你們才不尊重人"},{"start":3797.674,"end":3823.789,"text":"再一次呼籲啊我再一次呼籲啊我知道我知道但是在這樣子一個其他委員的干擾之下,執行委員是沒有辦法行使他的職權的所以我必須要暫停一下好吧,我再一次呼籲其他委員尊重發言委員政黨的權益我們就不要錄影好嗎"},{"start":3827.539,"end":3833.323,"text":"那位子有說是民進黨的位子啊執行人員受到干擾了嗎"},{"start":3860.818,"end":3868.183,"text":"非執勳的委員非執勳的委員非執勳的委員請肅靜我們繼續尊重執勳的委員好"},{"start":3884.096,"end":3906.367,"text":"我們現在請政黨的代表質詢委員繼續質詢再一次呼籲請尊重發言委員請 時間請好 謝謝主席那個 謝謝啊那個主計長見笑了立法當到國會議員還把自己當小學生在這裡錄影來 這個主計長"},{"start":3911.443,"end":3930.179,"text":"現在立法院已經正式三讀通過也送到了行政院跟總統府所以我們今天才會站在這裡來探討財化法到底修正合不合理有沒有需要再調整本席讓你看一下這個各縣市"},{"start":3936.376,"end":3941.126,"text":"我們那個 這個是總表我們一個比較小的表 我們來看一下台北市"},{"start":3948.019,"end":3959.603,"text":"財務法修正了以後增加416億每一年增加416億新北市增加374億台中市增加262億台南市增加163億高雄市增加245億桃園市增加259億下一頁"},{"start":3968.154,"end":3971.717,"text":"宜蘭縣增加128億新竹縣增加185億苗栗縣增加137億彰化縣增加181億南投縣增加138億"},{"start":3981.885,"end":3987.63,"text":"章化縣增加181億雲林縣增加149億嘉義縣增加120億平東縣增加134億台東縣增加134億花蓮縣增加161億基隆市增加75億新竹市增加210億嘉義市增加69億主計長"},{"start":4007.277,"end":4033.485,"text":"這麼多的縣市能夠掌握自由財源我們今天要深刻地來探討財化法因為在1999年立法院做了一個不正確的事情如果當時還是中央六十地方四十的統籌分配今天沒有這些問題但是今生以後1999年以後到今天"},{"start":4035.154,"end":4064.314,"text":"所有的地方縣市幾乎都要取債因為地方沒有足夠的自主裁員而且也完全違背了中華民國憲法的地方自治沒有辦法落實地方自治地方沒有自主裁員所以所以25年來不分政黨國民黨民進黨不斷的呼籲要修正裁劃法"},{"start":4065.123,"end":4084.581,"text":"充實地方的財源來落實地方自治所以在這裡我們是接受民意來修正財化法這個財化法現在修正了以後請問這個主席長有哪一個部分自然能行"},{"start":4085.933,"end":4108.417,"text":"我跟委員報告一下以前今省前28.94%是直轄市和縣市台灣省是11%然後中央政府是60%那今省後呢中央政府變成75.4%地方24.6%那這個部分裡面你說的15%裡面他是包括台灣省的部分是11%"},{"start":4110.038,"end":4132.851,"text":"那現在縣市的部分它才4.3%那你現在把15%因為3753就是佔9%然後一般縣市補助的部分不能減它是約6%所以兩個合起來就是15%你把15%移給地方但是你省政府的那個部分沒辦法移"},{"start":4133.371,"end":4161.618,"text":"那省政府的部分譬如說老農今天159億譬如說健保900多億譬如說國立高中只350億還有原來的省立醫院有400多億那這一部這加起來就140幾億但是這是可以分的那有一些是分到部會裡面原來省政府的醫院是沒有辦法分出來所以你事前沒有去劃分那你現在把15分出去"},{"start":4162.678,"end":4191.466,"text":"中央面對這個部分他就必須減那中央三兆一裡面他依法律一五一兆五然後兩千五百零一的一個補助限制兩個合起來一兆八減掉這一法律一五的部分只剩下一兆三那我如果要減三七五三我就要平均減的話我就要減百分之二十八好如果說國防預算很重要我不減那我平均每一個人就要減百分之三十七"},{"start":4192.026,"end":4219.221,"text":"這就是我們覺得困難的地方好 謝謝所以這個3753是嗎是分配到各縣市3753是本席先請教一個簡單的問題我們是不是要尊重中華民國憲法是有這麼困難回答嗎是嗎是好中華民國憲法保障的地方自治我們要不要來落實"},{"start":4221.018,"end":4245.349,"text":"我們也是往這方面來盡量請明確回答要不要落實是嗎是不是是好謝謝我想因為你不是一個政務官你從事務官上來我們很樂意跟你溝通因為良性不會鬥嘴不會有政治任務在這裡砸場所以我們很明確的來詢問所有相關的問題"},{"start":4246.465,"end":4274.72,"text":"但是呢剛剛您提到3700億如果啊這個給地方縣市政府你有部分自然難行本席在這裡清楚表達我們非常歡迎權責的分配可以商量權責的分配可以商量我想各縣市也都很願意但是我們要依法行政什麼叫依法行政你必須要把它公告"},{"start":4276.094,"end":4300.988,"text":"實施的時候因為實施的實際的年份還沒有到我們可以各縣市大家一起來談國會也很願意來談所以主計長您放心我們都尊重但是呢不要用不溝通的方式用網軍側翼部會首長扮演網紅的方式這不是國家之福你同意嗎"},{"start":4302.648,"end":4329.398,"text":"是我要再跟委員補充一點沒有關係啦剛剛您在說的本席待會還會讓您有補充的時間本席問的問題很簡單就回答本席這樣好不好是不是你同意嗎是好那本席在這裡要跟你商量一下過去4年我們看一下過去4年中央政府超收了多少稅收超收了多少稅收從2021年到2024年"},{"start":4332.392,"end":4353.442,"text":"中央政府超收一兆八千七百零七億一兆八千七百零七億中間有五千三百八億是拿去還救債但是還有一兆三千多億拿去做政府的輿促等等我們再看一下"},{"start":4357.045,"end":4369.028,"text":"從2021年到2023年就是民國110年到112年我們有多少政府的餘畜我們來看一下中央政府餘畜110年110年112年總共餘畜有一兆654億有這麼多的稅基剩餘真的一年三年有一兆654億的稅基剩餘"},{"start":4385.097,"end":4411.969,"text":"平均一年有3400多億的稅基剩餘如果3700億分給地方其實大家來談一談都是可以談的我們用數字來證明所以在這裡主席長有這麼多稅基剩餘我們大家當然可以談好不好有很務實的把國家的"},{"start":4416.603,"end":4443.701,"text":"這個稅收能夠用在人民身上本席在這裡你聽我講本席要先讓你了解地方政府有多麼窘困我們要用中央政府是一個父母官的心態來看待地方政府因為直接照顧2300萬人是非常重要的這個主計長我們如果能夠財化法修正以後依法實施"},{"start":4445.322,"end":4470.314,"text":"地方你剛剛提到的這個未來的高中是不是像台北市一樣由這個交給地方來管這個都可以來商量都可以來商量包括有一些老農基地這都可以商量看中央跟地方怎麼分配這個都可以談因為重點是什麼一條路不用分山崎來鋪因為地方政府都在舉債沒有錢"},{"start":4471.71,"end":4486.614,"text":"防災設施一次到位不用一條河的整治上中下游要分三期堤防要分三期做什麼都要分幾期大家拼命寫報告送到中央審核一年半年曠日廢時"},{"start":4489.844,"end":4507.246,"text":"地方政府最了解地方人民直接的地方自治直接的地方民權直接的地方鄉親照顧本席在這裡讓你看一下如果財法法實施以後我們可以做多少直接造福地方人民的事情讓你直接來看"},{"start":4508.509,"end":4535.484,"text":"我們青年創業地方的青年創業地方政府可以直接支持青年創業購屋都可以需要貸款都可以利息來補貼再過來結婚年輕人不敢結婚結婚可以給他結婚好禮生育可以給他生育補助可能現在兩萬未來可以十萬再過來零到六歲現在國家養零到六歲一個月六千我們可以加倍養三倍養只要地方財源可以的話有足夠的預算再過來"},{"start":4536.364,"end":4554.172,"text":"全民防災像花東地區很多的災情常常會有天災地變因為是台灣的迎風面這些都可以推動全民的防災保險還有老人健保老人健保是一國兩制在台灣為什麼六都老人健保費"},{"start":4555.737,"end":4582.459,"text":"是地方政府講其他非六都越窮的地方要自己講老百姓自己講這都不合理的事情還有老人長照要不要長照保險保險給地方政府來負責還有這個包括老人家如果不能吃東西整個人就開始技能退化所以這些老人裝假牙的問題重養禮金的問題還有我們可以像日本"},{"start":4583.715,"end":4593.921,"text":"所有的教育通通由政府來負責從幼兒園 小學 初中 高中 大學碩士 博士 出國留學通通可以由政府來支持"},{"start":4595.186,"end":4623.622,"text":"讓教育讓貧窮的孩子都不用憂慮就可以到學校去一個屋簷下一個教室裡面不會有兩種學生一個叫有錢繳費的學生一個叫沒有錢繳費的學生這個都可以來做然後呢還有更多的包括文化提升教育提升農業提升產業提升基礎建設提升房災所有的這些設施提升這都給地方政府在第一線在第一線可以立刻來做"},{"start":4624.454,"end":4643.178,"text":"可以造福基層的兩千三百萬人這就是我們今天關心的問題這個主計長我相信啊您 不好意思您不曉得我相信您當了母親 當了祖母了嗎您應該有當過母親了吧已經當母親了吧沒有 我單身"},{"start":4651.462,"end":4676.48,"text":"哎呀抱歉抱歉但是在我們這個年紀有機會的話都當祖母了對不對所以啊我們都深愛我們的家人如果我們在一個能夠得到政府照顧的環境人民會更加的放心所以為什麼過去各個政黨都要求修裁劃法尤其民進黨是喊得最大聲的"},{"start":4678.598,"end":4698.104,"text":"主席長我們願意敞開大門來協商也希望主席長您準備好的時候隨時隨時跟我們來協商我們很願意啊來跟這個主席長協商我們是不是請這個卓榮泰卓院長請卓院長麻煩請卓院長好謝謝"},{"start":4711.97,"end":4731.706,"text":"我們剛剛已經跟主席講說一個非常誠意良心的協商也希望未來協商過程能夠清楚把財務法的修正能夠落實也尊重中華民國憲法也尊重地方自治能夠盡快來完成"},{"start":4732.466,"end":4759.016,"text":"好不好 我們卓院長一起來完成一句話 去年我們就準備了一本要跟立法院來協商但是12月20號之前的那一個禮拜發生了一些大家都不願看到的事情所以整個談的時間就減少了所以我們希望有機會再跟各位委員先進請韓院長能夠再主持大家把這件事情好好地談一談我想 卓院長謝謝你再次提醒但是我還是呼籲一下 喚醒您的記憶"},{"start":4761.284,"end":4785.244,"text":"當您邀請我們針對一百一十四年度總預算的爭議因為立法院三讀通過的進法補償 全民健保相關的這些公糧收購這些都沒有編入預算的時候我們在行政院協商你也當本席的面"},{"start":4786.26,"end":4811.117,"text":"告訴我採訪法如果一四六七千億放給地方您也受不了希望要協談本席清楚的告訴你那時候十月底本席清楚的告訴你我們很願意協商恭候但是兩個月斷訊沒有任何訊息所以本席剛剛會跟主席講清楚的表達我們從來沒有接受過"},{"start":4812.523,"end":4840.964,"text":"一直都沒有介紹任何訊息要來協商所以我希望這個卓院長未來市政上大家多溝通可以嗎可以嗎未來多溝通可以嗎我衷心的期盼我們能夠合理性的希望我們未來多溝通我們都很願意好不好我們敞開大門一句話就是我們在行政院談過之後主計總署財政部一直跟地方有所接觸也算出了這麼多的版本"},{"start":4841.482,"end":4868.997,"text":"但是就苦無機會來談對 因為本席已經清楚表達我們去年十月有一個deal本席在等你 恭候但兩個月斷訊無聲無息所以今天已經發展到這樣對於財化法的修正基本上 左院長您支持嗎我一直說財化法是目前我們執行起來最有把握的但是它一定有它可以調整討論的空間"},{"start":4871.618,"end":4891.589,"text":"討論討論空間但是我想請執政黨還有相關的網紅側翼不要再講修裁劃法就是中共同路人修裁劃法就是賣台修裁劃法就是這些攻擊政府請卓院長約束一下"},{"start":4893.32,"end":4920.686,"text":"不為首長不要再來出來講這些沒有網軍啦但是我也很剛剛很注意聆聽委員所說的地方所有的這些如果經費充裕的照顧但是如果委員能夠再多提一下當國家需要的時候如何強化國防如何走出國家的外交如果讓政府在這個事項上也能夠有充裕的財源讓我們對地方城鄉差距政府有財政的彈性跟能力能夠來彌平這個城鄉差距如果能夠這樣講的話"},{"start":4921.946,"end":4938.031,"text":"那隨後再加上委員剛剛描述的也許就是一個藍圖中華民國台灣會是一個更好的國家謝謝院長因為剛剛提到讓國家更好國防"},{"start":4938.697,"end":4954.469,"text":"更加您剛提到的就是希望能夠事前溝通不過我們在財政委員會在去年的六月十九號就一個臨時提案希望我們財政部能夠在在下一個會期開議之前能夠提出版本那大家來檢討"},{"start":4955.714,"end":4977.12,"text":"但是好像正院版本一直到現在後來都沒有提出那我想這個也是我們一直很希望能夠跟我們財政部這邊跟行政院這邊來溝通但是事實上一直到12月12月剛這個院長講的事實上也都一直沒有溝通所以不是我們不願意溝通而是這個本來在財政委員會就已經有一個臨時提案"},{"start":4978.58,"end":5003.796,"text":"來去要求這個政院提出政院的版本院長應該還記得吧部長也在這邊他應該還記得任務要跟地方座委員長的溝通而且就這一次近時間主記長也跟召委有相當多的聯繫跟裁委會的召委有相當多的聯繫我都知道我想剛剛徐議政委員講得非常清楚本席也講得很清楚去年十月本席等於兩個月國民黨團"},{"start":5006.694,"end":5018.685,"text":"在去年7月做的決議在財政委員會做的決議請行政院9月提出版本但是也沒有其實國民黨已經等待多時在野黨"},{"start":5019.406,"end":5047.777,"text":"已經等待多時並不是不跟行政院溝通而是行政院一直沒有提出版本這跟過去行政院再三的民進黨再三的要求要修才化法但是在卓院長上台以後這個部分好像沒有聽到民進黨再說要修正的聲音所以我們要特別強調不要讓權力使人腐化不要忘了初衷初心"},{"start":5049.613,"end":5077.364,"text":"當時民進黨呼天搶地要修才化法但是在野黨也提出來希望你們提版本但一直都沒有提我希望這些事情以後都不要發生大家多做一些良善的溝通剛剛卓院長有提到希望我們的國防各方面都能夠提升來保衛我們的國家有剩餘的這些款項願意讓地方支持能夠落實本席就請教一下延續昨天的問題"},{"start":5078.745,"end":5108.154,"text":"現在台積電已經成為美積電我們護國神山氣盾已經正式的已經撕裂已經破裂那到今天為止請問我們跟美國我們到底爭取到了我們什麼樣的台美這個防禦條例還是聯防協議還是有其他的關稅豁免請問院長有沒有"},{"start":5108.933,"end":5114.885,"text":"好的 我請委員在回答這個問題之前我請一句話過去101年地方財政的短處598億"},{"start":5117.489,"end":5142.223,"text":"到了112年地方剩餘高達648億當地方財政在好轉的情況底下財政法跟過去的思維是要不一樣的我願意我也承認給地方更多的自主財源絕對是中央政府未來應該思考的但是如果談論出一個合理的財政收支發放法才是好的方法我們現在講更大的國安問題請您回答好不好 本席剛剛講的國際談判不是一朝一夕"},{"start":5143.581,"end":5159.107,"text":"就像台積電到各個國家去設廠也不是一天兩天它必須長時間的規劃它必須取得土地它必須很多很多的狀況所以不是一朝一夕來這裡而且 因為台積電到美國去是要經過政府同意的嘛"},{"start":5159.767,"end":5178.683,"text":"那你昨天說樂觀其成那請問一下嘛本席就請教嘛到底得到我們國家什麼樣的安全保障嘛因為你剛剛主動提起嘛為了國家安全嘛那本席現在請教嘛我們得到了什麼國家安全嘛請告訴本席啊他如果違反國家安全我們是不會核准的所以"},{"start":5181.308,"end":5208.01,"text":"所以國家安全你還是依賴在台積電上面嘛對不對國家安全不只台積電那如果未來卓院長您核准了台積電到美國投資5兆多把上下游產業全部帶走這個不是10兆20兆的問題是台灣產業空洞化人口科技人口流失大量的高端收入的人都流失"},{"start":5209.971,"end":5238.713,"text":"這個大量的失業潮跟對台灣產業的衝擊請問一下卓院長對我們的國安得到什麼委員你誤會了我沒有核准我也沒有能力在這個時候核准當國內的產業去外國談的時候本席現在請教如果你願意核准的時候台灣能得到什麼他要合乎我國的法律好 那本席現在在這裡明確的告訴院長因為院長你說你還沒有核准好 本席現在在這裡強調我們站在人民的立場"},{"start":5240.526,"end":5269.333,"text":"如果我們的護國神山75年來打造的護國神山千萬不要再千萬不要讓孫運賢先生李國鼎先生在天上流淚把台灣的家底一切之間割讓掉割讓出去第一個台美FTA關稅豁免台美共同聯防防禦保障協議"},{"start":5270.99,"end":5300.234,"text":"如果做不掉 如果做不到總院長 千萬不要核准台積電出動你剛剛的前提是不存在的我們不會把它割讓出去你後來那幾項都是國家安全重要的事項看一看韓國怎麼堅持三星有出去嗎我們跟韓國學習嘛 腰桿要挺直可以嗎再過來 你又提到國防本席請教一下川普大帝"},{"start":5301.311,"end":5319.295,"text":"跟美國國防部次長提名人要求台灣的國防要在GDP的10%我們一年GDP今年中華民國政府表示我們的GDP今年是26兆8800億10%是2兆6800億"},{"start":5329.96,"end":5357.989,"text":"我們的國防軍備要兩兆六千八百八十億請問總委員長川普大帝要求的時候已經正式敲門請問你要怎麼做美國川普總統不僅對台灣他對很多的國家包括北約他都有同樣的要求本席問你的事你是中華民國行政院長本席請教你中華民國如何因應請你告訴全國人民中華民國在目前這個階段"},{"start":5359.353,"end":5375.552,"text":"絕對沒有能力去編列一個兩兆六千億的國防經費所以我們會衡量自己的財政能力跟我們國軍的消費之所需要川普到底要求您做要求您做不是 這不是要不要做你可以公開拒絕嗎你現在公開表達公開表達"},{"start":5377.97,"end":5396.827,"text":"如果美國要求我們GDP百分之十兩兆六千八百八十億來做軍備你同不同意我們在我們在二零二五年所編的你說您同不同意直接告訴全國人我們現在沒有能力編制一個所以您不同意是嗎我們沒有能力您不同意是嗎現在我們沒有能力不是沒有能力以外同不同意"},{"start":5397.947,"end":5410.423,"text":"如果我們有能力有需要的時候那個再來考量這是一個不存在的議題什麼叫不存在人家已經正式扣關了他不是對台灣要求這樣子他對很多國家都不存在這不是一二二到零啊"},{"start":5411.906,"end":5437.383,"text":"不是把頭藏在土裡全世界人都在講就像中國要求我們承認九二共識我也沒有辦法答應他一樣不要扯到這個啦今天是台美的問題請你務實回答不要這樣意識形態來打斷本席本席最後一次請教中華民國的行政院長對於10%兩兆六千八百八十億的國防預算"},{"start":5438.786,"end":5465.865,"text":"本席現在沒有預設立場但請院長回答您同不同意我們在2025年今年沒有辦法未來我們要衡量國家財政很長的一段時間如果要兩兆多的預算作為國防預算依照我們現在預算規模那是不可能如果再過來不止10%還有中華民國成年的青年滿20歲就要去服兩年役沒有這個討論沒有這個議題沒有這個要求"},{"start":5469.304,"end":5485.167,"text":"所以未來在賴清德總統任期內未來三年都不會提出能不能承諾人民未來三年不會提出中華民國異難的異期多長是國家決定不是應誰之要求所以未來三年都不會實施嗎"},{"start":5486.752,"end":5515.525,"text":"我們現在沒有討論這個議題本席現在跟你討論這個議題人民很關心的問題怎麼叫做你現在不討論這個議題本席請正確回答本席的問題我們在討論的是如何均衡台灣如何幫助中小企業沒有在討論議題延長的問題所以你不敢回答本席的問題我已經回答了所以本席請教你未來三年會不會實施兩年兵役會還是不會"},{"start":5516.618,"end":5526.225,"text":"未來三年怎麼樣會不會實施兩年兵役未來三年會不會實施兩年兵役現在不會把這個問題拿來討論所以他不會改變現狀這在國會什麼問題不能討論還有什麼你不拿來討論"},{"start":5534.403,"end":5547.696,"text":"政府現在沒有在討論這個議題所以現在正式告訴你如果你不能承諾就是心虛我沒有心虛我已經回答了本席讓你看一下現在烏克蘭的情況傷亡百萬人再看到烏克蘭現在的現狀烏克蘭的現狀"},{"start":5559.847,"end":5580.613,"text":"再看一下現在不只割礦賠款割地賠款要還美國3500億美元外債還要割5000億的稀土礦給美國還有包括俄羅斯三年的土地不得歸還還要投降另外還有歐盟要來守債"},{"start":5586.129,"end":5605.864,"text":"整個烏克蘭人民的GDP才4200塊美金平均一個月才1萬塊收入烏克蘭人民啊 維奴啊100年都還不還這樣的外債你們看一看 本席現在鄭重告訴行政院鄭重 正高賴清德總統我們看一下"},{"start":5607.876,"end":5622.943,"text":"當時慫恿烏克蘭去因為俄烏戰爭發生前看一下川普怎麼講俄烏戰爭發生前烏東很多親俄羅斯的人對俄羅斯表示友善造成俄羅斯的誤解才造成俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭鐵的事實"},{"start":5626.545,"end":5628.346,"text":"川普連續幾日催促烏克蘭重新選舉更直指總統澤倫斯基民調只剩下4%"},{"start":5647.219,"end":5648.059,"text":"再看一看一國的元首"},{"start":5664.807,"end":5666.469,"text":"詹仁士在美國怎麼被羞辱"},{"start":5684.549,"end":5696.84,"text":"你所做的事非常不尊重這個國家,這個國家我完全不尊重你比很多人所說的更尊重你曾經說過謝謝嗎?你躲在那裡,人們都在死亡,你走得太慢了你走得太慢了,那你告訴我們你不想停火,你不想停火,你不想停火,你不想停火,你不想停火,你不想停火"},{"start":5711.943,"end":5724.389,"text":"那個總統主持的國家就是在避免戰爭的一個政權這個政府就是在避免戰爭所以要強大自己我們也要防止像烏通人民對俄國表示善意造成吐國俄羅斯誤解的狀況發生"},{"start":5730.277,"end":5757.67,"text":"國家GDP的百分之十一年軍費兩兆六千八百億所以您同意啊是嗎我沒有同意我們現在沒有那個能力去編列一個兩兆六千億的國家很多國家都被要求日本挺直腰桿拒絕對關稅領域墨西哥挺直腰桿拒絕對關稅領域加百分之二十五降到大挺直腰桿拒絕"},{"start":5759.724,"end":5775.686,"text":"卓院長不要啊人家不同意都挺著腰桿不同意割讓結果台灣是還沒有人家要求我們就把台積電送掉了您錯了我告訴卓院長"},{"start":5778.257,"end":5796.676,"text":"李國鼎 孫逸璇啊在天上都會流淚啊台灣75年的家底對您又沒有任何條件就把他割讓出賣了這是台灣的護國神這是台灣的戲盾你又錯了希望你挺直腰桿如果台積電要去美國"},{"start":5797.737,"end":5815.178,"text":"台灣2300萬人一定要得到確切的安全保障不然你絕對不能犧牲全國人民這75年來的努力讓我們這麼多的錢流向美國這麼多國家的安全的戲盾從此破裂我們台灣2300萬人在這塊土地上"},{"start":5815.879,"end":5837.664,"text":"我們最後所有人民的努力我們的台積電我們的護國神山在你任內崩山你如何面對2300萬人你世代的子孫都永遠記得因為你擔任行政院長同意了台積電到美國去而沒有任何條件這就是出賣台灣請卓院長"},{"start":5838.504,"end":5850.551,"text":"不要當出賣台灣的人更不要當一個勤快更不能當一個賣台的人不能讓民進黨政府賣台不能讓民進黨政府賣台不能讓你賣台不能讓你賣台好 謝謝謝謝傅坤祺三位委員的質詢謝謝左院長各位相關首長的備詢謝謝我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":6497.504,"end":6499.585,"text":"好 報告全員委員會 我們繼續開會現在我們請黃珊珊委員詢問現在主席我是院長那請左院長黃議員好"},{"start":6525.919,"end":6555.15,"text":"院長好我想今天是才化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案"},{"start":6555.816,"end":6585.286,"text":"而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天你們到這邊來才化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一"},{"start":6586.308,"end":6595.361,"text":"但是我們看到執政黨在這場談話法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決"},{"start":6597.415,"end":6625.232,"text":"我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨"},{"start":6628.403,"end":6641.812,"text":"寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦"},{"start":6642.957,"end":6665.703,"text":"接下來富裕不成功你的下一步是什麼過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政短促你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式"},{"start":6667.031,"end":6683.725,"text":"有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的院長 你的溝通非常非常的差我沒有見過這麼差的行政團隊溝通我來自地方政府我當台北市的副市長被拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的"},{"start":6684.526,"end":6710.883,"text":"院長 那我就分享一下怎麼溝通憲委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個 我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個 如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長 我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來"},{"start":6711.738,"end":6714.168,"text":"尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我"},{"start":6715.165,"end":6743.99,"text":"主計長來找找我我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長 副秘書長甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長 主計長當然就代表行政院 代表整個政府我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們哪個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎我們沒有下這個令"},{"start":6745.02,"end":6768.49,"text":"所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要脅這一點不是國家之福我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了您的下一步是什麼"},{"start":6769.482,"end":6782.055,"text":"您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道"},{"start":6783.568,"end":6808.088,"text":"希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們"},{"start":6808.849,"end":6830.216,"text":"也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意出名我們的版本我們8票投自己你們51票沒有投我們這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取"},{"start":6831.591,"end":6847.621,"text":"這個最嚴重的是 財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔 114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民 所有的立委所以部長 你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編 所以他是恐嚇人民還是誰邊亂說話已經說明大院審議院長你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛 對不對"},{"start":6860.366,"end":6867.492,"text":"從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編"},{"start":6880.328,"end":6906.729,"text":"預算當然是要編 要如何編 要怎麼編我們要努力讓大家得到 要用新法編還是要用又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算 地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外 還有其他方式什麼方式 也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎"},{"start":6909.047,"end":6933.24,"text":"新法就是新法 法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來談那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免 是嗎我沒有這麼說 我以為你怎麼可以這樣"},{"start":6938.725,"end":6958.478,"text":"這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡1月20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎"},{"start":6960.055,"end":6980.82,"text":"拿出來啊 我們大家也許可以考慮啊現在有沒有 今天有沒有 拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本 我們去討論一下 也許會考慮啊所以 院長 到今天這個時刻 沒有版本 是嗎跟地方在談 不用跟立法院談"},{"start":6982.012,"end":6998.897,"text":"跟要投你復議票的立法委員黨團要跟地方談到有一個共識之後我們形成一個所以現在的問題就是我們的行政院到復議這一天都還沒有端出你們的所謂的院板來跟立法院的黨團來說明地方溝通的狀況跟委員說明我們在3月6號邀請專家學者還有地方政府來開會第一個就是說"},{"start":7007.159,"end":7032.339,"text":"你的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了 你3月6號在開什麼會啊你真的演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們財政委員來審討我們去年6月就叫你提版本了整整8個月 院長你上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月 件事情都沒做"},{"start":7032.739,"end":7061.878,"text":"跟委員說明我們持續都在演商我們認為不應該倉促的修法報告主席這樣子我沒有辦法詢答麻煩官員不要搶答從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有院版如果你今天有院版也許拿出來我們可以考慮"},{"start":7062.861,"end":7090.126,"text":"但是沒有面板的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢"},{"start":7091.516,"end":7120.639,"text":"我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚非常多次4月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成"},{"start":7121.363,"end":7141.237,"text":"重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了"},{"start":7142.028,"end":7169.514,"text":"我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了 政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎"},{"start":7171.26,"end":7201.001,"text":"什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是認為他我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要"},{"start":7201.499,"end":7221.12,"text":"提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮"},{"start":7222.917,"end":7237.192,"text":"從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說政黨黨團也有黨團的想法黨中有機會溝通嗎我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎"},{"start":7242.642,"end":7264.907,"text":"但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在預算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎"},{"start":7266.383,"end":7281.791,"text":"前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子"},{"start":7282.87,"end":7311.049,"text":"治水 蓋停車場 做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼 做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛"},{"start":7312.424,"end":7340.225,"text":"這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成沒錯一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":7341.496,"end":7370.163,"text":"我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做我們今天談的是復議案不是談一個行政院的版本我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持復議案嗎 不可能嗎我們今天談的是復議案復議案之後我們就可以把我們來談的內容如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢"},{"start":7371.658,"end":7388.93,"text":"你沒有方案就是一種不幹的行為啊副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後 組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算 每一個部會的預算都要捅刪28%這是從3753算下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是這個行政院不想說明 只想造謠"},{"start":7395.902,"end":7408.087,"text":"最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說國防獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎"},{"start":7409.292,"end":7415.436,"text":"20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想"},{"start":7437.008,"end":7445.395,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊委員詢問 謝謝卓院長的備詢跟各部委首長 謝謝接下來我們請陳培宇委員請詢問好 謝謝韓院長 那有請行政院卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長"},{"start":7472.317,"end":7487.403,"text":"好 院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢"},{"start":7488.724,"end":7505.761,"text":"質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好"},{"start":7507.563,"end":7527.657,"text":"不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道"},{"start":7529.819,"end":7545.659,"text":"請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止"},{"start":7547.722,"end":7576.14,"text":"這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加 部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多 那這個詢問答案就結束了"},{"start":7577.028,"end":7600.064,"text":"應該要問為什麼會多多在哪裡我用同樣的方式如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊預算書上都多了1.11多了1.11啊但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務廣告這一項都多了2500萬"},{"start":7601.823,"end":7626.799,"text":"那這個有沒有意義如果有意義 那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有 那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓"},{"start":7628.24,"end":7650.892,"text":"首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子"},{"start":7651.414,"end":7673.829,"text":"但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能流用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎"},{"start":7675.439,"end":7697.824,"text":"所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼"},{"start":7698.732,"end":7727.171,"text":"然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態好 謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共事的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思"},{"start":7727.611,"end":7752.964,"text":"但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心"},{"start":7757.126,"end":7783.533,"text":"所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協"},{"start":7784.313,"end":7801.77,"text":"這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員"},{"start":7802.21,"end":7815.427,"text":"是真的願意相信他們自己做錯的事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員"},{"start":7817.97,"end":7839.873,"text":"中央政府總預算以及財發法的附議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才"},{"start":7840.933,"end":7867.281,"text":"沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談"},{"start":7868.479,"end":7885.125,"text":"故意把它輸漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議"},{"start":7886.065,"end":7903.49,"text":"之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復育的話未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來"},{"start":7904.828,"end":7922.065,"text":"謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關才化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張再下一張我想要到好這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張"},{"start":7923.837,"end":7944.857,"text":"其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛認養的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多"},{"start":7945.558,"end":7969.628,"text":"他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說"},{"start":7970.848,"end":7986.457,"text":"人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數"},{"start":7987.484,"end":8010.17,"text":"稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是"},{"start":8011.004,"end":8029.504,"text":"要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政府總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大"},{"start":8030.322,"end":8056.398,"text":"我們來看一下投影片 謝謝部長部長先不用離開 謝謝投影片下一張好 這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起更多照顧老人健保 老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養 重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做"},{"start":8056.778,"end":8083.721,"text":"但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養他從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有重陽理經甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責"},{"start":8084.722,"end":8097.339,"text":"當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息"},{"start":8098.382,"end":8117.943,"text":"或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來"},{"start":8119.645,"end":8148.476,"text":"他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情"},{"start":8149.431,"end":8168.438,"text":"我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好 院長 容我打個岔我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過"},{"start":8173.525,"end":8188.576,"text":"應該沒看過啦這個是好 類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定喔這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子"},{"start":8188.976,"end":8206.242,"text":"他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種"},{"start":8208.082,"end":8235.015,"text":"贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿"},{"start":8236.448,"end":8258.823,"text":"我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說甚至連江縣的縣長他自己都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象"},{"start":8259.784,"end":8277.728,"text":"這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減"},{"start":8281.155,"end":8305.952,"text":"那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源"},{"start":8307.253,"end":8331.199,"text":"整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話文講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎"},{"start":8332.259,"end":8358.774,"text":"是的確實讓稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下鄉宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版的財化法還有中央政府總預算案"},{"start":8359.674,"end":8388.15,"text":"在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長還有拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明好嗎好謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問也謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的答詢接下來我們請登記第六位林俊憲委員請詢問"},{"start":8397.352,"end":8419.897,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長林委員好院長好 院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢 我想先請教院長"},{"start":8420.939,"end":8432.317,"text":"就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統"},{"start":8434.031,"end":8463.41,"text":"所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後移民署以他妨害危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例這是大概有史以來第一例有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可"},{"start":8464.167,"end":8479.121,"text":"那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠尊重其實我們法律是有規範的"},{"start":8480.56,"end":8506.831,"text":"你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這件事是怎麼做的以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子"},{"start":8507.898,"end":8535.453,"text":"有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊 什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦 勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例 第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵武統"},{"start":8537.264,"end":8554.457,"text":"散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定"},{"start":8555.762,"end":8571.288,"text":"我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是 謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面"},{"start":8572.386,"end":8599.145,"text":"已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他的言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼"},{"start":8600.612,"end":8628.968,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財化法那昨天跟今天啊我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財化法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財化法"},{"start":8629.761,"end":8655.394,"text":"如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢這總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期"},{"start":8656.408,"end":8684.714,"text":"他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十七日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣的條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書"},{"start":8685.482,"end":8704.929,"text":"這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆"},{"start":8707.332,"end":8735.415,"text":"那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有一點八兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億"},{"start":8736.991,"end":8763.07,"text":"那這五千億啊 請問國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊 桃園 台中 台南租屋補貼怎麼來育兒進貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行"},{"start":8765.729,"end":8792.162,"text":"這個採訪我還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出復議提復議啊但是南白多數啦大概也復議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算"},{"start":8794.971,"end":8817.883,"text":"現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子"},{"start":8819.073,"end":8822.296,"text":"台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億啦一般補助款193億啦統籌分配款322億啦這個就是現況啦"},{"start":8833.302,"end":8860.391,"text":"但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助也大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的你錢就這樣而已"},{"start":8863.001,"end":8870.968,"text":"所以我現在很高興你新的財劃法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊"},{"start":8874.158,"end":8902.779,"text":"那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次啦2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜啦"},{"start":8904.241,"end":8929.948,"text":"這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五實在都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫型補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照"},{"start":8931.267,"end":8958.539,"text":"還有子女的教育補助啦 托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦 育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦 必然啦"},{"start":8960.12,"end":8982.612,"text":"甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年"},{"start":8987,"end":9005.682,"text":"執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助 一般性補助 計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上"},{"start":9006.86,"end":9034.082,"text":"這個是不用修財發法就已經在做的實際上把它做得更精密但是現在財發法如果照現行的實行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的財發法公平嗎"},{"start":9035.111,"end":9061.341,"text":"台北市很有錢啦以後會更有錢啦台南 台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公民性我們來比較一下啦 院長花蓮啦 富坤崎的花蓮花蓮差不多24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬 花蓮只有24萬啦彰化"},{"start":9064.244,"end":9092.433,"text":"台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助款比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啦他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啦那為什麼多出來要做什麼"},{"start":9094.306,"end":9116.816,"text":"這公平嗎 而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高 台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比 院長講到重點 權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了"},{"start":9121.82,"end":9150.134,"text":"但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎"},{"start":9151.59,"end":9170.029,"text":"這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎"},{"start":9171.377,"end":9189.784,"text":"是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮"},{"start":9190.744,"end":9213.081,"text":"每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點"},{"start":9213.641,"end":9233.384,"text":"一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談"},{"start":9234.81,"end":9258.276,"text":"你說人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對 支出的結率等等人口的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣"},{"start":9261.217,"end":9288.014,"text":"這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來對不對因為他排擠掉了這部分一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方哪有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢"},{"start":9289.485,"end":9315.731,"text":"大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來"},{"start":9318.655,"end":9327.148,"text":"好 謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長的答詢在接下來我們請登記第七位王洪威委員請詢問"},{"start":9340.814,"end":9367.261,"text":"好 主席 我想時間先不要計算我要提一個權宜問題因為從昨天到今天在我們整個復議案的質詢過程裡面都有民進黨的委員在現場那麼有委員在現場質詢的時候下面有叫囂甚至錄影事實上我們都知道別說我們現在在議場裡面是完全直播的"},{"start":9368.061,"end":9383.539,"text":"也不像是我們在平常可能在審查法案的時候大家可能人很多那可能有的照不清楚那所有的委員在這裡啊來發言質詢還有官員質詢答詢都完全是直播的我不理解就是"},{"start":9384.119,"end":9401.445,"text":"在委員在質詢的時候為什麼還有人要拍影片還有人要叫囂所以主席我一定要反映的是其實我們在立法院人或有大家有一些衝突或者是有一些爭議但是基本上我覺得委員的質詢權"},{"start":9403.706,"end":9418.152,"text":"應該要被維護所以在這邊呢也拜託包含我們主席還有我們的各政黨請能夠去尊重每一位的委員至少他的質詢權這就是跟我們在議場裡面大家有爭吵啦或者有辯論是不一樣的因為這是一個質詢的時間以上希望我們至少在議場"},{"start":9428.936,"end":9452.485,"text":"大家過去長期以來就是所有的委員的完整的質詢權能夠得到維護謝謝王航威委員的直接提出的會議詢問立法委員行為新法第七條明文規定就是這裡面我們想互相尊重一下質詢的委員如果委員不提出來其他的委員錄影啊什麼"},{"start":9453.24,"end":9474.045,"text":"我們沒有主動的處理但既然有質詢的委員提出他不希望被其他委員錄影主席一定要出面支持這點要請各位委員能互相理解我想這種感受是相同的所以再一次呼籲我們尊重我們質詢委員的權益這點要特別要拜託大家那另外一點就是這一次我們全員委員會的整個"},{"start":9475.365,"end":9501.857,"text":"過程之中大致上都非常好還少部分有點小摩擦我想在官員這部分不用搶答那也請質詢的委員給官員適當的時間能夠予以說明我想這都是互相的好 我們現在請黃輝委員正式的詢問好 謝謝主席我想請我們院長 卓院長麻煩請卓院長還有我們的經濟部長麻煩請經濟部長 郭部長"},{"start":9508.432,"end":9511.505,"text":"今天沒有郭部長是吧好那就先請院長"},{"start":9517.621,"end":9545.023,"text":"院長我想一開頭我花一點時間針對有關於台積電赴美國投資的部分因為大家都非常的關心尤其其實當時郭部長在這邊也講過很多次說因為台積電並沒有正式提出申請但是我們都知道我們任何的一個企業"},{"start":9546.745,"end":9567.464,"text":"赴國外投資都應該經過投審會所以我想請問一下如果今天包含美國的總統府以及內總統也隨同這個威哲家董事長也在總統府裡面召開記者會請問一下台積電申請跟投審會申請我們投審會到底會不會給他通過"},{"start":9572.527,"end":9578.003,"text":"依照我們相關到國外投資的法令一定要按照裡面的規定"},{"start":9578.905,"end":9607.774,"text":"以好幾項我這第六條還第幾條我現在背不出來條文我跟那個院長說明一下我們包含我們產業創新條例以及我們公司國外投資處理辦法都有相關規定那事實上因為過去台積電曾經到中國大陸投資也引起相關的技術有沒有外移的這個疑慮所以當時對於中國對中國大陸投資有一個N-1的一個"},{"start":9608.294,"end":9632.535,"text":"相關的規定所以我想請問一下到中國大陸投資我們有擔心我們的先進的製程跟技術沒有辦法繼續的領先同樣的到美國投資是不是也有同樣的疑慮是不是應該適用同樣相關的規定我在跟產業界的溝通當中第一條談到的就是這個那我包括我本人經濟部郭部長還有我們國安會"},{"start":9633.787,"end":9659.524,"text":"劉主委我們都一起跟產業談過很多次是不是請劉主委能夠再說明一下委員我們有三個原則我們一定會把握很清楚第一個最新的技術不會過去最關鍵的技術不准過去再來國家安全優先主委你這樣子都很空泛我剛才是很實質的講就是你對中國大陸投資有N-1就是我們必須要一千一個世代所以我們堅持到底您放心"},{"start":9659.884,"end":9668.902,"text":"所以我请问一下这个太空了我们是不是也适用要N-1甚至有人讲到N-2我们是不是也适用这个相关规定"},{"start":9669.605,"end":9690.031,"text":"我們是一定會適用的對我想中國大投資有技術可能會被移轉的疑慮那同樣的對美國投資我們也希望我們的技術能夠領先就請主委先請回時間暫停我請一下我們的我們的主計長還有財政部長麻煩請主計長財政部長"},{"start":9709.96,"end":9730.984,"text":"院長兩位首長今天才化法拿到立法院來附議但是我們說過很多次過去因為才化法二十多年長達二十五年都沒有修正而過去民進黨在在野的時候多次提出一定要修才化法所以才化法修正絕對不是毒蛇猛獸這個過去我們歷任包含"},{"start":9735.485,"end":9754.631,"text":"賴清德總統當市長的時候有要求包含當時柯建民總召他也說就是一定要修裁劃法那為什麼到現在修裁劃法竟然變成一個什麼復議竟然變成癱瘓政府的事情我覺得簡直是莫名其妙我們先看一下影片好不好"},{"start":9758.837,"end":9765.041,"text":"所以我們認為最優先應該是財政措施法案今天我們領領長怎麼可能再讓這個議題讓馬來西亞再回覆呢所以我們認為這次臨時會財政法是一個很重要的優先法案"},{"start":9790.094,"end":9804.418,"text":"當年我在編預算的時候常常是側夜南北半夜醒過來是全身冷汗從我當主席以來第一件事就是把民進黨執政縣市長約起來黨中央一起大聲的呼籲要趕快通過財政收支化分化"},{"start":9804.938,"end":9817.4,"text":"財政收支化文化攸關地方縣市政府的正常運作也攸關每一個縣市民的權益我們呼籲做國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要解決眼前的問題"},{"start":9818.882,"end":9844.257,"text":"好 可以看到當時民進黨在野的時候不管是黨主席 縣市長 或者是黨鞭都認為《財化法》是絕對優先的法案不然呢 半夜睡覺都會發冷汗可是等到民進黨執政的時候遲遲沒有提出《財化法》的修正甚至在去年 財委會開始有《財化法》修正因為我們很多的委員提出版本"},{"start":9845.097,"end":9867.531,"text":"早在去年4月份就已經開始召開公聽會而且召開公聽會不僅是請學者專家也請了地方的縣市首長或者是財政局長一起來開會我相信當時我們的部長通通在現場去年4月就已經開始已經著手在修正開公聽會的"},{"start":9868.712,"end":9885.377,"text":"到目前為止請問一下院長我們行政院有提出任何才化法的版本嗎一年了快一年了委員我今天早上這是講第三次了我們的版本就在我手上而且剛剛那三段影片都是2012年"},{"start":9886.704,"end":9910.891,"text":"我也講了第三次了2012年地方政府的財政短促集體來講589億元2023年地方政府集體剩餘的剩餘數高達648億元就是說當時確實地方政府財政短促589億元 嚴重那經過這幾年雖然財化法沒有修正但是我們用各種的方式"},{"start":9911.391,"end":9921.843,"text":"所以院長的意思是說在你們的執政之下地方政府都不需要裁劃法你看這又是在帶風向3月6號來我們財政部長3月6號我們是不是"},{"start":9926.728,"end":9947.523,"text":"來召開了一個就是你們提出你們相關也不是正式的版本啦只是你們一個相關的一個方向而財政部呢國庫署署長對外說多數的這個縣市首長啊縣市都支持財化都支持財政部的版本這是被國庫署講的"},{"start":9949.324,"end":9976.13,"text":"但是我想請問一下卓院長當時你也在立法院說現在的裁判法的版本是最好的版本最棒的版本我修正一下是不是標題下錯了我說現在裁判法是我們執行起來最最最有把握的版本沒有欸這不是只有這一個標題喔有人說卓珮說現行是最棒的版本有人說是最好的版本我始終說是最有把握的版本"},{"start":9978.519,"end":9994.487,"text":"這都是你之前說的你現在做修正現在你們就一再的自我打臉我剛才說財政部國庫署對外講說多數的縣市都支持財政部的修正的方向其實你們還沒有版本出來你們根本沒有版本出來"},{"start":9995.707,"end":10013.172,"text":"結果立刻都喊南投縣縣長許書華立刻出來他說他支持立法院的財劃法版本希望趕快上路雲林縣縣長張立善也說財政部的財劃法根本沒有得到共識"},{"start":10014.572,"end":10030.747,"text":"還有中東景 苗栗縣縣長中東景縣長也說他支持的是立法院的財化法版本好了 這麼多的縣市長在你們財政部在亂帶風向之後突然通通出來打臉行政院第一個"},{"start":10031.548,"end":10051.976,"text":"行政院沒有到現在為止沒有版本我剛講了早在去年四月我們財務會已經召開公聽會了你們不拿出版本然後呢對立法院的財化法版本極盡污衊之能事甚至還造謠說大部分的縣市是支持行政院的修法方向"},{"start":10053.335,"end":10071.267,"text":"這會不會造謠 造過頭了院長你覺得這是一個修正這麼重要的法案應該有的一個態度嗎這樣的程序是對的嗎跟地方的溝通我請部長來說明但是委員請不要用造謠兩個字來掩蓋過去在任何事情上產生的錯誤部長請是"},{"start":10073.148,"end":10087.784,"text":"跟委員說明才有會從去年當然一直有關注才華法的修正但是我們也一再說明財政部一直都在努力第一個我們必須要做充分的討論集約最大的一個共識才有助於修法的推動那所以財政部也在"},{"start":10088.965,"end":10110.4,"text":"八十幾個指標裡面跟地方政府多次的會談以後已經把這個部分有最大的共識而這三個有第一的指標我現在這次也放不長取問一下你們得到各縣市的共識了嗎3月6號我們基本上的說法是大部分當然還有其他地方政府的意見我們會納入參考但是大部分的共識怎麼個大部分吧"},{"start":10111.221,"end":10128.822,"text":"因為財化法的一個財源的分配必須要配合市權調整這個包含專家學者以及在座的部分大家都沒有意見本來就是財權要隨同市權做調整但是這一次財化法的修正案它只是做財權的調整而沒有做市權的調整其實你們說了很多次大家都有意見"},{"start":10130.283,"end":10138.649,"text":"到目前為止你們沒有任何版本提出來因為妳在倒帶之前我在財務會都聽了多少次來 院長我請問一下因為在昨天是不是在今天有講對不起 因為我剛才沒有進來"},{"start":10150.438,"end":10174.782,"text":"那麼你有講說在我們總預算復議案不夠的時候你就要下鄉宣講總預算老實講我不曉得你們怎麼下鄉法啦因為昨天副總召在這邊一個一個問所有的部會首長問你們到底今年的預算是多少然後跟去年比較增加多少減少多少"},{"start":10175.462,"end":10203.737,"text":"還有幾個部長上來根本不知道今年自己部會的預算到底是多少講都講不出來我不曉得你怎麼宣講但是我想請問一下財化法你也要下箱宣講嗎財化法今天的復議案也極可能不過不會通過那請問一下財化法你也要下箱宣講嗎告訴大家我們中央不要給你們那麼多錢我們不要還是要中央來集錢跟集權嗎"},{"start":10205.063,"end":10226,"text":"中央如果喪失了對財政健全的能力也喪失了我們對地方這種平衡均衡的能力我想應該讓地方知道而且中央維持的是我們中央包括國防外交等等屬於中央權限不屬於地方自治事項能不能維持這樣的財政能力院長你要不要下鄉宣講才化法"},{"start":10227.634,"end":10234.082,"text":"副議員過或不過我都有可能如果有必要都會到各地去告訴我們地方說中央不要給你那麼多錢財化法修正"},{"start":10244.975,"end":10259.723,"text":"我們其實提到就是它對地方的用錢事實上是可以更有效率我舉一個例子來說尤其台灣的地震非常多以我們好幾次地震都造成很多的學校校舍嚴重的毀損那麼事實上過去"},{"start":10264.446,"end":10285.455,"text":"以教育部每一年他都有編預算就是補助地方來做老舊校舍的改建你在台灣我們台北市就非常多啊都已經變成這個快要變成歷史古蹟了超過50年的比比皆是而過去教育部大概每一年只編大概30到40億來補助地方"},{"start":10288.896,"end":10312.537,"text":"這個金額如果你拿台北市台北市過去一年大概就拿40億每一年拿40億為學校做老舊校舍的加速改建因為孩子的安全這是最重要的所以以台北市來說台北市現在如果他一年就是這個我們立法院的才化法版本通過他可以"},{"start":10314.449,"end":10340.887,"text":"針對一百個學校來做校舍改建老舊校舍改建他就會把錢花在刀口上因為如果每年你只靠三十十億台北市我猜台北市還是比較有錢的縣市你今年就是以中央每一年才三四十億給全部的縣市怎麼可能完成校舍改建還有以我們台北市來說"},{"start":10342.248,"end":10367.749,"text":"老舊市場大家都知道其實大家都希望能夠都市更新但是呢你光是旁邊的房子更新的漂漂亮亮但是很多的老舊市場事實上會成為一個適容的景觀甚至呢成為一些衛生的一些的難題所以在台北市他也可以做老舊市場的改建還有"},{"start":10369.127,"end":10389.948,"text":"以台北市來講,如果才化法修正,會有六個路線的捷運路線,可以六線啟發。而這個並不是只是加惠於台北市而已,整個大台北地區可以增加非常多的路線,以及它的轉應點。"},{"start":10391.328,"end":10411.734,"text":"那另外在拖老拖幼的照顧上他們也會增加非常多所以我要講的是不要不信任地方政府地方政府拿到這些錢的時候因為剛才有很多委員說我們就減少好多的補助啊"},{"start":10413.462,"end":10430.834,"text":"地方政府當他的財政充裕夠充裕的時候他可以非常精準的來做他的地方的地區的建設請教委員0403的地震中央撥了將近300億以及去年三個颱風中央調整了151億那這個錢以後是中央還地方"},{"start":10435.128,"end":10437.472,"text":"這個是重大災害重大災害還可以編特別預算對不對"},{"start":10468.7,"end":10483.672,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的詢問也謝謝主委長各部會首長大家的詢問接下來我們請登記第八位郭國文委員請詢問"},{"start":10506.055,"end":10519.249,"text":"謝謝韓院長的主持首先要請院長時間先不要計算一個權宜問題我覺得剛剛王宏威委員在質詢前所提的問題非常好有時候我們在院會期間其實應該尊重這個質詢者個別的立委"},{"start":10523.72,"end":10541.825,"text":"剛剛院長的採取我個人也接受當事人不願意被拍攝的時候基本上應該尊重當事人但是我本席也在這邊慎重的提醒一下院長就如同你今天所提的現場已經有直播就不應該再直播但是我們在其他的院會時間事實上也都有直播"},{"start":10542.694,"end":10565.831,"text":"但是我們部分委員的行為也都是如此他不單然是裝這個密錄器甚至直播對著人甚至老實說在這個院會進行當中造謠我本身就是一個受害者在院會當中或在委員會當中免不了會有一些肢體衝突但是擁有直播器的人他多一個造謠的武器"},{"start":10567.165,"end":10581.224,"text":"一旦我造謠就說郭文達 郭文達誰最會講這個話一個是葉元芝一個是黃國昌他們都拿直播當作造謠的武器院長如果要處理的話我覺得你應該有一致性的處理"},{"start":10582.145,"end":10600.32,"text":"如果要尊重當事人的話不管有沒有直播都應該尊重當事人院長你同意嗎你能不能形成一個一致性的標準啊我本身尊重你的一個才識啊但是應該不分對象不分黨派不分藍綠嘛是不是院長你能不能給本席一個回應啊我們會把這個議題納入黨團協商"},{"start":10602.842,"end":10615.605,"text":"我會列入在朝野協商之後好 謝謝院長的正面回應我們現在進入正式的行動好不好好 有請卓院長還有包括財政部 主計處兩位首長麻煩請卓院長 主計總書 財政部國務院好"},{"start":10626.994,"end":10648.641,"text":"院長好 您的報告當中的第五點我看得特別詳細就是憲法當中的147條有提到地方經濟的平衡發展的重要性其實除了憲法147條之外憲法的107條也有類似同樣的意思表示再加上大法官第234號的解釋的內容當中都特別強調"},{"start":10653.422,"end":10675.053,"text":"地方經濟平衡發展的重要性也就是中央統籌分配款的一個正當性的來源所以如果違反了這個平衡的原則基本上就有違憲之餘也因此你應該提出這個釋憲的一個必要性這就是一個院長你作為一個憲政機關負責人必須履行的義務對不對"},{"start":10676.073,"end":10687.564,"text":"是 財政收支法案法是依照憲法的規定精神而來的所以基本上認為它是一個財政憲法那如果違背了它當中很重要的就是"},{"start":10688.257,"end":10715.24,"text":"地方自治的精神 中央地方如何分配財源但是不得不提出釋憲案嘛 對不對違背了這個事情等於就是違背了財政憲法為了國家發展不得地方的平衡發展嘛 對不對而且剛剛有幾位委員可能誤解了財發法當然可以修不是不能修財發法確實在從1999年到現在事隔25年之久大家都清楚但是我們要問財發法每次修改的過程當中歷史都非常的久遠"},{"start":10716.621,"end":10741.732,"text":"在1999之前的那次修法是什麼時候是1981相隔18年之久在1981之前是什麼時候是1965相隔17年之久所以拉長來說財法法要修都要經過一二十年所有的中央跟地方磨合的結果嘛我們希望當然透過財法法不只是解決啊縣市之間的平衡問題更重要的是要建構中央跟地方政府的夥伴關係"},{"start":10743.032,"end":10748.323,"text":"所以這更需要花很多時間因為在戰略版本當中他只有處理財權 不夠處理事權嘛"},{"start":10751.363,"end":10773.277,"text":"在幾次的討論當中說開過宮廷會沒有錯是開過宮廷會兩次夠不夠 絕對不夠當初我就強烈建議要從一個士權的角度來召開宮廷會也就是說你要不要修地方制度法你要不要修地方稅法通則你要不要修公債法連帶著士權一同討論的話那怎麼可能一年就可以完成呢而這一年當中我有看到財政部在努力啊"},{"start":10773.897,"end":10798.934,"text":"在做溝通 還沒完成嘛所以財政收支方法不是不修但是不能急著修也不應該亂修亂修的版本又變成什麼變成今天這樣的版本史上最粗暴的我算過統籌分配款拿到地方要3753億一般補助款匡列在那邊又不得留用這樣的情況至少要少於2501億"},{"start":10801.67,"end":10831.15,"text":"也就是簡單的講 如果這部法案執行的話你要給地方的至少要有一個地板價 不能少於喔是6254億欸就匡列在那邊欸 對不對第二個呢 他這個特色上呢重北 青南 重工商 青農業啊通過之後 最有錢的是什麼地方居然是台北市蔣萬安通過的金孫條款他的錢已經花到花不完了"},{"start":10832.803,"end":10837.748,"text":"這兩年都有稅基剩餘沒有舉債結果你又平白無故給他461億又多了20%"},{"start":10841.229,"end":10868.651,"text":"這不是違反了憲法條文當中一個地方經濟平衡發展嗎對不對這第二點講得很清楚第三呢縱然侵略綁裝費用增加所有的內容當中就很奇怪綠營執政的都墊底藍營執政的都是在前面所以院長我現在談到縣市之前我必須跟你說你是行政院有史以來最苦命的行政院長"},{"start":10869.855,"end":10894.681,"text":"為什麼你遇到兩種雙重劫財事件一劫是昨天的總預算的劫財二劫是財政收支發文法的劫財因為你想要做一個行政院長做一個全國最高行政的一個執行長的角色你要統籌所有事務的執行的一個方向跟具體的落實沒有錢怎麼辦事不是你苦命而已咧我跟你講"},{"start":10895.649,"end":10920.911,"text":"地方也苦命我剛剛講的重難輕別的結果你看到六都當中以台北市你看高達59.8%增加的金額 照他們的說法可是最低的是哪裡 高雄跟台南台南的金額是最少在163但是呢 就整個這一個精華型補助站拿掉的話 台南啊"},{"start":10922.312,"end":10949.011,"text":"不增繁減啊 還少了76億啊還少了76億六都當中啊 高雄跟台南是綠色執政 所以墊底好 你看非六都非六都的部分呢嘉義 澎湖 屏東的增加值都低於平均值平均值當中的最後一名是誰又是屏東非首都六都縣市當中的最後一名"},{"start":10951.243,"end":10977.119,"text":"院長這樣的情況底下你真的覺得多了這些錢的這些金孫條款的桃園增幅幅度最高喔增幅幅度最高高達68.9金額最多的是台北市樓461億你真的覺得他會好好的落實嗎為什麼為什麼我會質疑為什麼你錢增加了你人沒有增加的情況底下你怎麼善用這些資源結果這些錢都要幹什麼就辦活動嘛"},{"start":10978.325,"end":11003.687,"text":"不然就變成地方福利嘛就變成變相的綁裝嘛這樣不是讓整個財政紀律更加的迫害嗎需要錢的地方拿不到錢而且又面臨三減總預算我就說台南就這樣子啊南科被凍結預算史前博物館南科分館還有那個考古館南科分館還有包括我們的文學館都紛紛被凍結30%"},{"start":11006.119,"end":11034.99,"text":"還有包括我們的典藏中心文化部的典藏中心被刪除了一億連一塊錢都沒有剩這些加總起來台南也是雙重受害者總預算被砍得最嚴重分配又最少院長這樣的情況底下你當然應該要提出這個事先案啊你不覺得這個版本當中充滿了很多問題嗎院長你要不要補充一下提出復議案"},{"start":11035.689,"end":11051.512,"text":"是行政院的義務跟責任因為行政院是唯一有資格有權力來提出復一案的那至於復一案沒有通過之後我們應該還會繼續去延長其他的合法和憲政的救濟程序"},{"start":11052.482,"end":11079.318,"text":"對 是憲政究竟沒有錯啦方法要怎麼面對啦因為畢竟我們是執政黨嘛該解決的 該面對的 我們都要想盡辦法你剛剛說你有最壞的打算老實講 我真的不知道你最壞的打算是什麼我覺得現階段有出現一個問題喔主席長在這邊喔 財政部長在這邊喔我就要請教主席長現在屬於這個今年度的預算屬於未確定狀態對不對"},{"start":11082.239,"end":11100.648,"text":"是不是 因為要釋憲那你今年執行的版本是哪個版本是行政院的總預算嗎還是委員會刪除過的總預算你根本不可能執行院會通過的總預算嘛那你要執行哪個版本再加上現在財發法"},{"start":11102.645,"end":11116.665,"text":"如果依照他的條文 他沒有日出條款他就會立即生效了現在呈現一個凍結的狀態那我請問你 你今年的總預算就法形成凍結的狀態還有總預算案形成凍結的狀態你要執行哪個版本 我請教你"},{"start":11122.879,"end":11138.435,"text":"按照去年的預算案的總額還有所有的這個項目的一個預算額來執行所以都也不是按照今年的行政院的草案而是按照去年這法說得通嗎"},{"start":11140.936,"end":11157.656,"text":"可以嗎?法上沒有問題嗎?法律上沒有問題嗎?不是,他規定就是這樣規定就是這樣,就是按照去年所以我們地方爭取預算就要按照去年的那個預算案的版本來跟你爭取依照目前的狀況就是說如果這個部分沒有公佈"},{"start":11159.335,"end":11182.117,"text":"未確認的狀況就按照今年前一年度跟委員報告就是新的中央政策總預算如果沒有辦法完成它的所有的程序那我們是要依照去年的比例來執行好那我們就按照去年的比例來執行2800億的新增項目是一塊錢都不能用新增項目必行就是按照原來的非新增項目的部分來做執行好那接下來那財政部長"},{"start":11183.639,"end":11202.857,"text":"剛剛呢有幾個委員在提到說到底我們會不會有屬於自己的裁判法我覺得你溝通了很多次啦我印象中沒有錯的話好像是說我們的復議案假設通過的話我們會提出版本嘛 是不是"},{"start":11203.71,"end":11223.32,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個修正財化法的部分財政部一直在努力而且3月6號開會的時候我們已經提出相當具體的那個分配的指標跟權重的一個配置其實這個部分一直在往這個讓共識有更多那我們就希望有最大的共識在修法推動上可以更為順利這個部分一直往前在走"},{"start":11224.12,"end":11249.638,"text":"有共識當然是最好但是呢要形成共識需要時間但是我必須說你在形成共識的過程不是單一部會的事情趁著院長這邊來講應該連同你剛剛一直強調的一個事權的部分要處理事權的部分要處理也不是只有處理地方制度法而已還有組織編制當中的部會之間的權責劃分問題這都會限制到事權還有包括中央跟地方的一個權責劃分的問題這都全部都是問題啊"},{"start":11252.6,"end":11279.35,"text":"所以我是覺得我們如果誠意夠的話趁著這一些段都未確定的狀態的情況底下不論是財權的溝通 事權的溝通都應該一併進行院長我這樣問可不可以這個部長跟主席長都一直有跟立法院裡面的委員會的召委委員去做溝通但是很多時間在溝通上沒有那麼的被接受"},{"start":11280.489,"end":11299.185,"text":"時間上也很難敲得一定這是他們目前遇到的困難至少 我是說 院長至少我們站在一個行政部門我們要展現出我們的誠意嘛真的有為這個問題在做積極的一個籌辦嘛我覺得要從財權的部分跟私權的部分一併去進行啦這是真的很重要為什麼"},{"start":11299.585,"end":11327.477,"text":"你已經講說你副議案如果成功之後你要提出你的財化法的相關版本啊那時候就牽扯到財權跟事權可能不只是單純財政收支法案法還有包含地方自治法其他的法案要一併進行不是嗎所以如果說你是擺出這個態度的話你就應該有實質的作為來做搭配那另外當中呢在這個將軍沒有解的情況底下如果說你副議案通過你就可能提出版本那另外一個問題啊副議案如果沒有通過呢"},{"start":11329.67,"end":11347.204,"text":"你要不要提出版本我們還是會努力把它導正回來合理的一個規劃努力導正回來就需要版本嘛所以我意思是說有沒有可能一個暫時性的處理方式因為當初一個日出條款當中並沒有明定時間嘛"},{"start":11347.924,"end":11362.84,"text":"我們月月來做草野之間的對話來先行修行一個條文也就把日出條款延後到一年兩年或什麼時候讓行政院有一個版本充裕的討論的空間當中來進行草野之間的對話有沒有可能"},{"start":11364.687,"end":11386.115,"text":"如果有這樣的空間會讓我們未來在整個新的修法的版本當中有充裕的時間跟地方也跟大院能夠做更詳盡的一個溝通對 但是我說意思說站在一個行政部門的角度站在一個執政黨的角度我們要先拋出這個感染值的情況底下我們有相對的備案嘛"},{"start":11386.815,"end":11414.637,"text":"相對的要把所有的時間做一個確定我的意思是說你至少拉出一個確定的時間點修一些單條的條文讓時間點定在那邊大家有一個互信可言在那個時間點之間我們來解決市權財權的分配的問題來找出一個新的可能性有沒有這個可能性我們可以往這樣去做努力而且這個努力的方向應該是最正確的之一對 如果是這樣的話那我真的是覺得 院長"},{"start":11416.245,"end":11443.597,"text":"這個牽扯到事權的修法我們可以進行如果行政立法院沒有一個積極的回應的話我建議說事權的部分我們可以進行財權的部分我們可以進行否則的話你如果在執行的過程當中想要動用一些經費的話難道你還要去找財法法33條要求上級政府對財政財力優惠的下級政府來取得協助金嗎有需要弄這種方式嗎主席長有沒有可能搞到這種狀況"},{"start":11445.986,"end":11469.057,"text":"這種狀況是有他的困難在因為地方政府如果不協助的話你也沒有辦法強制他來協助沒有不協助的話那你其他款項都在你的手中啊你怎麼會沒有棒子當然有方法怎麼會沒有方法那另外我就問院長啊院長你之前要求地方政府的時候不是說要凍結地方政府不都跳起來嗎這凍結這個地方的這個撥補補助金的部分還會不會再執行"},{"start":11473.834,"end":11497.179,"text":"我們凍結是不影響弱勢的照顧跟其他的部分我們現在如果考量到未來我們的財政真的發生困難我們是沒有辦法先凍結之後再考慮你現在朝野之間不面對的話你就會面對變成說因為在野者也不敢跟你提出一個倒閣權倒閣是一個被動解散國會權"},{"start":11498.599,"end":11513.81,"text":"所以才會形成一個體制一個缺口才會弄出一個變相的主動解散國會權形成一個大罷免的情況就是這樣子台灣現在沒有主動解散國會權但是大罷免變成一個變相的主動解散國會權想要解決國會現在的亂象啊"},{"start":11516.465,"end":11530.229,"text":"所以面對的問題如果我們沒有在體制解決我們就要面對一種另外一種方式沒有倒閣的情況底下的一種變相的主動解散國會權院長你被迫一定要面臨這種戰場你要有心理準備"},{"start":11544.112,"end":11553.157,"text":"好 謝謝郭國麗委持續謝謝卓院長的備詢 謝謝各部會所長 謝謝再接下來請登記第九位楊瓊英委員請詢問謝謝敬愛的院長邀請我們卓院長"},{"start":11572.978,"end":11574.279,"text":"養果園好院長好我們針對財務法我們來做討論我們看到院長你在修法前財務法我們都知道你也擔任過民意代表"},{"start":11595.096,"end":11612.631,"text":"25年來沒修整整25年受到經費不公平的這個國人可以說是從出生受教育到使用社會建設福利等都是不平等的請教左院長你認同這句話嗎"},{"start":11615.097,"end":11643.038,"text":"但是隨著中央地方財政的狀況的調整現在地方的財政顯然是比20多年前要好一些當然我不能說完全沒有完全的解決地方的問題但是我們像今年我們給地方的財政的資源就高達1兆零151億這也是史上最高的謝謝你的回答這是史上最高這個全國的國人都聽到這一句話剛剛那一句話不是我說的"},{"start":11643.658,"end":11665.686,"text":"是貴黨、執政黨、民進黨的前主席行政院的前院長蘇貞昌先生所說的那我必須要說早在1999年當時政府將經省錢的中央跟地方的收入全部由我們全國總收入的比例是六成比四成改為75%比25%"},{"start":11669.247,"end":11695.874,"text":"就是說從地方搶錢來給中央集權所以在2012年的時候蘇貞昌先生跟當時的市長現在的總統賴新德先生柯建民先生召開了記者會他都認為地方縣市經費不足很窮蘇貞昌先生還說了一句他說縣市首長在編列預算的時候就像媽媽看著孩子嗷嗷待哺"},{"start":11698.188,"end":11720.999,"text":"但是呢 米洋仔裡面是沒米的啊這樣子的苦我相信地方財政的不公平而且不夠的這個現象有這一句話可以顯示非常的清楚所以本席要再一次的請問你是否支持我們的財化法在現階段應該要修改"},{"start":11721.719,"end":11744.762,"text":"可以進行合理的討論不過早上我在口頭報告的時候我加了一段就是剛剛委員所說的經省的時候之前有11%是屬於省政府的經費的稅率跟支出是移撥到中央的所以才會從4比6變成25對75其中有11%本來在省政府是移到中央來的"},{"start":11746.516,"end":11765.129,"text":"那如果現在要回到4比6的話那這11%原來省政府由中央承接的業務難道要全部可以回到地方嗎地方有這樣的能力承接嗎你現在這個言語就代表著您所領軍的這個團隊他是不用心的"},{"start":11766.701,"end":11789.153,"text":"你現在告訴民眾 大家都認為專家 學者 社會大眾都認為必須財化要修但是你的事權 你到現在才講這些到底你們執政黨到目前為止做了哪些 我們繼續討論本席要再告訴你 在2017年的時候賴總統 現任的賴總統 賴院長 支持財化法"},{"start":11793.342,"end":11814.282,"text":"支持才化法而且他特別說了他說什麼呢他的態度是說修改才化法能夠給地方更多的經費以及地方創生發展地方的經濟所以本席要請教現在的卓院長你支持賴院長的論述嗎請說說明"},{"start":11816.964,"end":11826.669,"text":"這種論述沒有錯就是多給地方的經費也要帶去更多的市群好一句這種論述沒有錯要帶去更多的市群我們繼續來討論我們要討論就不能斷章取義院長"},{"start":11834.273,"end":11848.468,"text":"請尊重我們議會的質詢時間暫停一下因為我會好好的時間跟你說明但是你不能還沒有請你回答 你就如此你也不用動怒我們現在是在討論跟論述好 謝謝院長 以上見言"},{"start":11856.977,"end":11872.987,"text":"接下來我們繼續討論柴化法這一次的修以台中式為基準我們看到剛剛為什麼本席要讓你也充分的來說明我們要提起這一些的往事"},{"start":11873.667,"end":11900.993,"text":"主要就是要讓社會大眾以及院長你了解才華化25年來沒修的確是需要要修因為地方長期的這個才華不公這也是過去到現在藍綠的一個共識藍綠的一個共識所以我們看到現在到目前還沒有行政院的版本這樣子的一個帶墮我要告訴我們的左院長"},{"start":11903.293,"end":11916.221,"text":"賴清德當市長的時候當院長的時候我相信他全力是支持所以也就是如果我們這一次修的裁判法等於是圓了賴清德總統當時當市長當院長"},{"start":11918.903,"end":11941.518,"text":"以及蘇貞昌先生他當時當院長他們所提出的論述也就是承諾政治承諾的一個政策承諾所以在這邊我要告訴您也就是說不管是在中央或者是在地方通通這些裁員都是為了人民但是不要單方面的一把抓的一個錯誤心態"},{"start":11942.859,"end":11964.999,"text":"因此我要告訴你 財挖法攸關了全國22縣市的一個權益這個比例的分配 是讓地方首長能夠更有財源的依據能夠好好的來照顧我們整個民生 交通 建設 社福就像台中市 我們所分配的是增加了262億"},{"start":11966.881,"end":11983.23,"text":"但是我們反觀給卓院長說明台中市每一年上繳中央的經費2000億以上大家都肯定這一次的修法是幫助我們地方台中市目前的現況我們的人口急劇是286萬人急劇在增加"},{"start":11986.912,"end":12002.798,"text":"每一個縣市的條件不一所以因此我們今年更是建設年我們不管是捷運不管是道路的打通不管是我們的巨蛋有很多都必須地方來做配合款以及自籌款"},{"start":12003.698,"end":12017.507,"text":"所以因此在這樣的情況之下本席要強調這個財務法的修訂是讓我們台中市政府在整個地方的發展有及時雨有及時雨所以我在這邊更要強調這不是加錢"},{"start":12020.449,"end":12036.764,"text":"這只是拿回我們應該要有的一個公平待遇所以我再一次的要請問院長你認為在現階段我們是不是20年5年沒修的財務法應該要修請教卓院長"},{"start":12037.81,"end":12053.535,"text":"我贊成財化法大家能夠理性的討論讓他進到一個合理的階段跟委員報告今年就算依照原來的財化法今年就算依照原來的財化法台中市政府的年度總預算還是成長了7.67%還是成長了7.67%"},{"start":12058.372,"end":12082.132,"text":"成長了7.67%表示我們台中市政府盧秀燕市長領軍的台中隊不分藍綠大家一起支持我們的建設我們給台中也相當多的補助台中的捷運都是這樣做的吧我拿我數字告訴你我們上繳了兩千多元明天我們的有多少所以接下來本席要告訴你採訪法如果修補好"},{"start":12082.873,"end":12101.385,"text":"台灣的財政不會好這是政大的財經教授他所提出那連我們的蔡英文總統也說要修財化法那麼民進黨執政了八年賴總統也執政了一年多為什麼"},{"start":12102.225,"end":12127.335,"text":"到現在全國大家藍綠都認為必須要修未甚至剛剛我們的這個執政黨的委員質詢你的時候也說一個行政院行政體系應該要負責任你什麼時候可以提出版本所以請教請教卓院長你什麼時候可以提出版本我們的版本一直手上都有版本就是用這個版本在跟地方在談"},{"start":12128.633,"end":12143.296,"text":"手上都有版本立法院在審議的時候你們為什麼不送版本出來為什麼不討論為什麼不跟地方來討論呢12月20號為什麼在表決之前的那個禮拜有機會讓我們提出任何的說明嗎院長 院長韓院長不可以反諮詢請問不可以反諮詢"},{"start":12155.441,"end":12160.812,"text":"好 謝謝我想再一次呼籲委員跟官員因為我們這次這個"},{"start":12163.308,"end":12185.763,"text":"我還是呼籲一下大家互相尊重那請不要搶答也請委員給官員有適當說明時間再次感謝時間繼續謝謝接下來這個禮拜發生的是什麼事情蔡英文總統執政八年賴總統執政一年您反質詢我說這個禮拜發生什麼事情我告訴你我告訴你財政部長在你身邊來我告訴你"},{"start":12190.615,"end":12209.802,"text":"为什么2月27号复议案的时候你说对财务法修法你一直有方案有准备但是没有机会来提出你的方案这个您说的但是在6月份的时候你说什么呢你说财务法不会有行政院的版本"},{"start":12211.07,"end":12236.91,"text":"這是你說的那個時候啊11月15號還是一樣的卓榮泰院長你說什麼你說現行的裁判法版本最好執行也最有把握那我本期要請教你剛剛訪問我的請問哪一個在說謊哪一個是真正目前我們的行政院長所心裡願意要做的動作請做說明事實就是手上一直有不同的方案在跟地方談"},{"start":12237.745,"end":12242.106,"text":"那它還沒有到最後形成一個願版之前它就不是行政院的版本"},{"start":12242.759,"end":12270.406,"text":"非常好我們也希望透過這樣的哲學讓社會大眾知道在二月份你講了什麼話在六月份你告訴我們不會有行政院的修法版本在十月份的時候你又告訴我們說現在的版本是最好的換句話說六月份跟十月份你是認為根本不用修但是還好二月份你可能聽到社會大眾的心聲所以你願意修這個是我歡喜的我們繼續來討論"},{"start":12272.526,"end":12301.155,"text":"那既然大家認為我們可以好好的來討論所以本席要再一次的請教再一次的請教之前可以好好討論那麼多的時間你們不提出等到立法院三讀通過之後你們要提復議有人質疑是不是為了選舉我當然不願意本席不願意這麼說但是要請教如果今天下午復議案你們是失敗的"},{"start":12303.036,"end":12319.19,"text":"請問你們在整個財權跟私權的方面你會怎麼做呢你會提出你的版本嗎我再一次重複說剛剛我們執政黨的委員都希望行政部門必須要負責任的提出版本請教卓院長"},{"start":12319.878,"end":12348.007,"text":"我們的方案都有我們會繼續跟地方談談出一個合理可行可長可久的一個方案出來合理可行可長換句話說應該要調整財源的分配是嗎我們從來沒有拒絕討論這件事情好 所以你是贊同的嘛這個就是理順的一個討論現行已經通過的版本現行是必須要理性的來討論財源的一個分配現行這個修正法是有它內部很大的問題的"},{"start":12350.315,"end":12371.754,"text":"所以我們終於有了一個方向也就是目前的現行階段針對25年來未修的財化法我們是有修的這個必要這是我們剛才討論到最後現階段我們一個方向應該是我們兩個有共識部長也一直跟地方在結條部長也一直跟地方在溝通"},{"start":12371.974,"end":12399.375,"text":"所以是有共識嗎有共識也就是要修你才要去溝通嘛一直有在進行對不對一直有在進行因為認定結果論就是要修所以你們也在溝通嘛一直有在進行是不是如此對一直有在進行去認定目前的財化保持不適用於現在階段所以你們也在溝通是不是如此我們一直在討論不是如此就是他最有把握但是我們一直在進行跟地方的溝通那希望能夠達到最好的共識"},{"start":12401.041,"end":12422.899,"text":"所以卓院長,你也曾經說過,如果現在修裁劃法,會讓中央空虛但是我還是本期要告訴你,藍綠的委員都希望行政院要負責任也就是說,不能只有拿錢,不能只有分錢,而不去分責任"},{"start":12423.82,"end":12442.018,"text":"所以這個事權是非常非常的重要是非常非常的重要所以本期要請教如果今天下午的復議案是失敗的中央地方要如何分工合作要如何分擔責任跟義務 請做說明"},{"start":12443.925,"end":12471.056,"text":"跟委員報告我們還是希望大院能夠真正去審視一下我們看的副議的理由請針對本席的提問你們要怎麼樣去分工如果副議沒有辦法能夠通過的話我覺得這個部分會在執行上會有很大的一個治安請針對本席的提問中央地方如何分工合作那你們認為要如何分擔責任跟義務請院長回答我會重新檢討比方說未來的軌道建設"},{"start":12472.401,"end":12493.309,"text":"要跟地方如何再談是分配的比例要調整還是時間要延長還有未來的公路的建設是要如何分擔責任是不是要有一些下放到地方政府讓地方政府去維護或是一些興建那麼未來的防洪治水中央負責的部分地方負責的部分要重新界限"},{"start":12493.988,"end":12515.151,"text":"好 我充分給院長您說明我要給你一個結論一個負責任的行政團隊在整個財政的影響評估如果不具透明性不具專業審視過那這個政府是非常的危機所以要請教卓院長"},{"start":12516.592,"end":12524.055,"text":"剛剛你還沒有回答你要如何的分工我希望你要好好的審視如何的來分工這是人民要聽到的"},{"start":13949.002,"end":13949.684,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":16467.875,"end":16468.626,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17421.281,"end":17422.995,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":21670.895,"end":21672.378,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行詢問請中委員嘉賓詢問"},{"start":21690.606,"end":21702.176,"text":"好 主席 在場的卓院長帶領的行政團隊那麼與會的先進有請卓院長以及財主莊部長和主席長請卓院長、莊部長還有主席長備詢"},{"start":21716.938,"end":21736.457,"text":"縱委員好院長好 部長好 主席長好我今天要質詢的題目是是錢為病童移轉 人民權益產弱化中央國防無以開門醫道先問一個比較輕鬆的院長小時候求學答題有答過填空題吧請問這一題很惡門喔我繳稅不是為了養什麼"},{"start":21741.914,"end":21754.91,"text":"需要押運嗎?這個很難答A 養台積電嗎?請問我們繳稅是不是養台積電嗎?也不是台積電應該是賺很多外匯繳很多稅來提供給我們政府吧那會不會是B 是養台電嗎?"},{"start":21756.725,"end":21781.475,"text":"現在台電說要編一千億我們繳稅是為了養台電嗎因為台電負擔了很多的補貼的政策所以並不是要養台電不是要養台電是要安定我們的民生店家所以它造成財務上的歸索是因為這樣子那沒錯那可能就是C囉我繳稅不是為了養共匪您同意嗎什麼是共匪有沒有看到右下角那是什麼那麻將那個是什麼"},{"start":21783.157,"end":21803.105,"text":"麻將子那個麻將子啊我是不會打的但我知道這個叫什麼叫做武統武統什麼是武統鼓吹武統就是共匪來我們看今天大家新聞報道有位中配芽芽他主張鼓吹中國武力吞併台灣是不是涉及外犯罪"},{"start":21804.952,"end":21813.685,"text":"這種言論在台灣應該不會被任何一個人所接受所以我們這個剛剛早上內政部有答覆過了對於他的拘留我們要"},{"start":21814.704,"end":21838.056,"text":"很好,居留,好,我們來看一下居留,這個部長要上來了,歡迎歡迎我們據報導,說他原來是跟台灣人結婚,後來離婚然後再跟中國人結婚,但是他在之前跟台灣人婚姻有一個女兒,這女兒當然是我們國民啦所以他後來是以女兒的身份,來申請跟女兒來依親然後他的父母又來探親,是這樣子的嗎?"},{"start":21839.599,"end":21860.255,"text":"那這樣子我們看看他們一家人除了女兒是在台灣出生的話其他的都不是台灣啊是不是這樣 院長是這樣嗎還是要請部長補充所以我說依親要愛他的這個親不能來依了那跟這個親人所在的地方完全相違背的認知所以這點是不是請部長去查明一下好不好"},{"start":21861.112,"end":21871.224,"text":"報告委員這個網路上面的訊息跟他自己個人家庭的狀況不太一樣但是我們都是按照兩岸人民關係條例跟入出境管理的相關辦法來處理"},{"start":21872.312,"end":21894.933,"text":"好,謝謝劉部長,請回所以報告院長,我們還有裁除兩位部長、主席長人民繳稅不是為了養共匪,對不對?人民繳稅是為了照顧社會,是要維護身家好,那請問我們這件主題了財發法修法後,我們中央各地方的財源消長,是不是所得稅地方會增加1%營業稅的地方會從百分之十變成百分之百"},{"start":21895.453,"end":21918.438,"text":"那麼土增稅呢也是增加了20%因此從中央移轉到地方的稅源收入高達3753億是這樣嗎是114年計算的話好那請問院長那如果這種情況下我們中央政府不舉債我們裁員大幅減少什麼業務會受到影響有很多的業務會受到影響是不是這些您去年在23號12月23號記者會議說嘛"},{"start":21920.828,"end":21938.745,"text":"屋房經費會受到影響嘛對不對快兩三千億嘛撥補勞保會受到影響嘛交通建設會受影響嘛我們農業線的農業農損會受影響嘛年輕人的社宅租補會受影響嘛一般弱勢的醫療健保會受影響嘛還有國家少子女化的應對會受影響嘛"},{"start":21940.126,"end":21967.108,"text":"那請問院長您上午有說了這些事權因隨財權來移轉那請問哪些項目這些項目哪些是可以由地方政府或應該由地方政府來承接的可以告訴大家嗎國防經費國防預算跟國防當然不可以由地方只有中央能做所以可以移轉的是不是醫療健保農業交通建設這可以移轉嗎"},{"start":21969.417,"end":21982.97,"text":"有部分可以好那我們來看一下早上有國民黨在院委員在提到修法前修法後動審前動審後他說動審前省加縣市地方分配到40%中央是60%動審後就是目前的狀態縣市政府是25%中央75%修法後縣市變成40%中央是60%那請問院長"},{"start":21992.799,"end":22015.812,"text":"修法後省的財源回歸給地方政府那麼原來省政府所承擔的業務是不是應該要回歸給地方政府有11%在經省之前它是屬於省政府的經省之後它是移到中央來那現在財給地方的不只是收入而已它還有更多的支出有一個數字就是收入減支出它是"},{"start":22017.253,"end":22043.758,"text":"多了2500 中央多負擔了2500多負擔了中央從省承接的財源之外我們多支出的一來一往還多要負擔2000多億好 我們來看一下哪些至少我過去在地方政府府我知道的包括什麼省立醫院過去是省政府衛生廳現在是衛生署接收請問您所知道的地方政府願意接手這些由原來省立醫院改成衛生署署立醫院現在是部立醫院"},{"start":22045.179,"end":22049.565,"text":"19間加上26個機構不利因為目前扣除這張補助目前是虧損的還是盈餘的"},{"start":22052.433,"end":22076.61,"text":"除了願不願意接手之外還要看看他能不能維持這樣目前的量能有沒有地方要表示他們要接手的到現在應該沒有嘛所以原來省的中央負擔了錢還給的地方但是呢醫院還是中央在承擔對嘛是這樣嘛往下看來最大最熟悉的過去我的母校省立平中現在改成了什麼國立平中"},{"start":22077.33,"end":22094.297,"text":"好但是呢改成國立之後呢六度的部分又改成市立請問這原來省立改國立國立改成市立的這些中學的錢誰在付當然現在改成國立只有中央來付那又改成市立之後呢我想這個在"},{"start":22096.608,"end":22114.508,"text":"學生家長的生應該很難接受這樣的事實而且將來整個維持也沒有辦法像中央現在這樣的能力來處理因為今天的部會首長沒有權來教育部長會告訴你那些六都的國力改成勢力之後大部分的錢還是中央補助"},{"start":22115.669,"end":22143.699,"text":"主席長是不是這樣子 是的沒錯 你可以對著麥克風講好 還有一個什麼還有一個少子女化對策我們的生育育兒津貼 托育津貼現在是中央在支付嘛 對不對但是六都有加碼嘛 是不是是好 那現在中央預算縮水了地方的財源增加了請問有沒有哪個地方政府他說他增加補助的 有聽說嗎有沒有我們跟地方溝通的狀況 沒有沒有 那請問你中央的財源減少了中央補助的會不會縮水呢"},{"start":22145.317,"end":22165.951,"text":"這一定會縮大一點一定會縮水好那我們就知道了如果我們財化法亂劃那就還有什麼影響來我們看一下捷運的建設經費過去中央跟地方有一個分攤比例嘛那請問一下目前基隆跟新北市他們都在炒啊那如果中央的財源預算減少分攤比例中央的部分會不會減少"},{"start":22167.268,"end":22188.445,"text":"這一定要調整一定要調整地方要增加否則就是整個時間要拉長好那如果地方的財源增加地方分擔的比例要不要增加一定要增加好那我們來看一下您剛提到這個都是我們地方會影響到有一個只有中央在辦的這近五年來我們中央國防對外的軍購超過一千億從2020年到2024年買了這麼多的軍備保衛我們的國家請問當我們的財源縮水之後我們國防預算縮減之後對外的軍購夠不夠"},{"start":22197.757,"end":22212.132,"text":"是夠夠夠還是不夠不夠不夠會一直一直的不夠這個院長滿滿意滿快的我們的幹事長吳志強說不夠不夠不夠現在你是一直一直一直都不夠好那我們來看一下"},{"start":22213.776,"end":22229.769,"text":"藍白三國防預算入行台灣的防衛會不會增加中國侵犯我們的意圖在美國的聯邦參議員蘇利文他在一個聽證會上說台灣關心台灣他關心台灣立法院三選國防預算他抨擊是玩危險遊戲院長有看到這樣的一個報導嗎是的有"},{"start":22231.718,"end":22255.934,"text":"好 相對的我們也看到了中國的軍方在3月9號發布說如果台灣分裂主義加強他怎麼樣 要增加我們的繳索他在2025年要把國防預算增加7.2%院長 我們目前台灣的國家生存最大威脅是不是來自於對岸他是對我們相當有侵略的敵意好 那他們的國防預算增加我們要不要相對應的要提高"},{"start":22257.213,"end":22267.069,"text":"我們採取不最正的作戰方式但是強化自己這是基本的條件只有我們夠強我們才不會走上被併吞的那條路很好"},{"start":22268.015,"end":22290.789,"text":"我念文組的我們喜歡看以前的一些股市以前有一個話叫做開門一道什麼意思呢他說如果我要出遠門那麼我有拜託鄰居守望相助那鄰居怎樣我自己要把門窗鎖好我鄰居會幫我注意他甚至會幫我把信箱裡面幫我代收郵件免得被小偷知道說這一家人不在家是不是這樣子"},{"start":22291.448,"end":22310.755,"text":"如果我們一個人希望人家幫你守望相助門窗要守好嘛叫報紙不要 雜誌不要送萬一有寄信來 鄰居代收 是不是這樣但是如果你出遠門你家裡門窗都不關你想鄰居會幫你開門嗎不會嘛自我安全的意思基本上要有"},{"start":22311.28,"end":22330.907,"text":"所以如果不關好門戶 鄰居不會來相助賊就會趁機光顧所以我們來請教一個時事問題請問一下葉霸老師最近很有名葉霸說他罵傅坤祺通匪院長你可以理解為什麼葉霸要罵傅坤祺通匪呢為什麼我們尊重個人的言論的表達"},{"start":22336.209,"end":22363.724,"text":"那你認不認為這些報紙上他在媒體上所表示的他要求他拒絕傅坤祺的道歉到說除非你停止親共賣國停止立法院這些亂法他還指稱他是一個舔共賣財的領頭羊這些內容你覺得有沒有社會共鳴應該引起很多人對他的尊敬可是我很好奇啊葉老師從小在花蓮出生長大受國家栽培他也幫國家做於英才結果呢"},{"start":22364.753,"end":22384.11,"text":"他面對的這個傅坤祺怎樣我們看他做了什麼事情花蓮鄉親這是才化法傅坤祺總召領頭花蓮多了161億為什麼花蓮鄉親不感激他還有他說要立花東三法三個特別條例啊會增加很多花蓮的建設啊"},{"start":22384.813,"end":22407.822,"text":"照說如果這樣子做花蓮人應該很感恩他為什麼這些培育為花蓮培育做英才的老師40年退休80年的高齡會居然罵他通匪你覺得原因是什麼葉霸老師常年在花蓮也深受尊敬他自然有他觀察的角度跟方向這個都受到大家的尊重"},{"start":22408.683,"end":22427.966,"text":"好 那我們來看一下一般人怎麼解讀今天下一頁我們看到藍白他們二收財化法造成我們中央的財源不足必須減少中央的國防預算那在這種台灣自己不願意做好自己的國防防禦能力盟友當然不願意協防啊"},{"start":22428.598,"end":22455.904,"text":"那如果盟友不願意協防 我們又無力防衛那就是扼殺我們的保衛意志這不是形同讓外敵增加他的範囲嗎你門窗不鎖好 鄰居不會幫你守望相助不是鼓勵小偷來光顧嗎院長 是不是這個道理所以我們一直主張呼籲要更團結我們如果分裂 敵人就會更強大所以我們一定要更團結好啦 那現在怎麼辦現在要避免這個情況發生"},{"start":22457.351,"end":22475.154,"text":"財化法我看今天 執行到現在在野黨還是很堅持 認為可能待會的投票 呼籲不通過那如果呼籲不能通過 怎麼辦院長 有什麼方法防止人民的權益慘怎麼樣防止國家的安全喪失"},{"start":22476.479,"end":22500.557,"text":"保衛國家安全跟照顧社會跟人民的福祉跟國家整體經濟建設的發展政府這個工作絕對不會停下來但是我們會尋求另外一個方式我們來改變現在已經修正過的財化法我們有沒有機會來改變讓它能夠趨向更合理的修法好 那底下我請院長指示兩位部長跟主席長請做這兩件事情 請盤點"},{"start":22502.011,"end":22514.222,"text":"原來由中央買單的哪些人民的權利會因此而縮水可不可以讓人民知道可以嗎第二個原來由中央分擔的地方建設哪些會受到波及可以嗎"},{"start":22516.26,"end":22537.479,"text":"院長可以指示部長跟主席長做這個事嗎資料上我們都有這樣的準備要充分的讓來民知道接下來這一個事情比較複雜要用一點點時間現在財化法它叫做財政收支劃分法收入跟支出都在財化法裡面做區隔 是不是這樣"},{"start":22537.932,"end":22564.919,"text":"不是只有分收入也要分什麼支出嘛是不是這樣好那現在我們是先把收入分配出去之後再由中央跟地方各自去支出嘛那如果軍購真的很重要過去我們軍購預算是不是用特別條例院長是不是這樣如果有特別預算的話一定是特別條例好那所以我要請你為了顧及台灣的國防有沒有可能未來我們的軍購特別預算可以排除"},{"start":22565.879,"end":22595.514,"text":"我們財化法就是優先於財化法的收入分配之前先來支應我們國家保惠安全的預算可以往中方去研議嗎基於國防的需求那麼衡量我們的財政能力如果我們認為需要有一個比較長期間的特別預算跟特別特別條例跟特別預算我們會朝向這樣方式請求大院來支持那這樣的特別條例他在支用預算的時候他這個錢是不是優先於財化法的收入分配之前"},{"start":22596.004,"end":22620.757,"text":"就是說收回來的稅這個大餅還沒分之前先由這個特別條例要軍購的先拿走剩下的才來依財化分配是不是這個道理部長是這樣嗎院長是這樣嗎目前不是這樣執行不過但是要看這個特別條例的修法特別條例裡面必須要明訂經費的來源那請院長特別注意未來如果軍購特別預算的特別條例請一定要寫上這一點"},{"start":22639.062,"end":22646.867,"text":"好,謝謝莊委員下一位請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長"},{"start":22673.837,"end":22697.475,"text":"阿維好院長好 院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者"},{"start":22698.455,"end":22714.286,"text":"包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它"},{"start":22715.146,"end":22738.991,"text":"每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%"},{"start":22740.231,"end":22754.407,"text":"那統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來"},{"start":22755.168,"end":22776.724,"text":"可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看他的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%他是九分之一強"},{"start":22777.765,"end":22793.015,"text":"可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普遍面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求"},{"start":22794.517,"end":22809.226,"text":"他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少"},{"start":22810.526,"end":22827.28,"text":"幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要"},{"start":22829.022,"end":22843.433,"text":"持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的"},{"start":22845.815,"end":22863.556,"text":"問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉"},{"start":22864.457,"end":22890.922,"text":"那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要"},{"start":22891.682,"end":22914.642,"text":"辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展"},{"start":22915.763,"end":22934.894,"text":"還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自首財源少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐"},{"start":22936.482,"end":22956.09,"text":"南投縣有很多大家都說他好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐他垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接"},{"start":22956.59,"end":22985.433,"text":"去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些"},{"start":22986.594,"end":23007.077,"text":"聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院它可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為它如果是公立的它有很多是配合政府的政策那為什麼"},{"start":23007.858,"end":23025.725,"text":"他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方"},{"start":23026.445,"end":23053.799,"text":"好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以"},{"start":23054.983,"end":23078.599,"text":"人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概三千多億以今年的預算下去算大概三千七百五十三億那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的"},{"start":23078.939,"end":23083.863,"text":"就像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟"},{"start":23087.013,"end":23112.854,"text":"還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分"},{"start":23113.374,"end":23120.972,"text":"那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行"},{"start":23122.088,"end":23149.567,"text":"院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳陸委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們剛好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來"},{"start":23150.347,"end":23155.146,"text":"那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡"},{"start":23156.454,"end":23180.708,"text":"軌道建設一定會影響 我們的細項都有軌道建設 我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工廠沒有辦法進行嗎"},{"start":23182.368,"end":23207.819,"text":"3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億這兩項我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少"},{"start":23208.493,"end":23225.118,"text":"我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實他是由誰執行的高速公路"},{"start":23229.82,"end":23242.086,"text":"現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡撥了可能要有"},{"start":23247.148,"end":23265.302,"text":"一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它"},{"start":23266.792,"end":23294.618,"text":"全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購"},{"start":23296.198,"end":23316.883,"text":"或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個"},{"start":23317.863,"end":23339.19,"text":"政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的"},{"start":23344.952,"end":23366.223,"text":"整體熱鬧度啊各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮那像那時候說要經省的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡"},{"start":23366.923,"end":23393.662,"text":"所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到的就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程它本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來承作的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧喔"},{"start":23397.269,"end":23414.893,"text":"吃虧對啊都未行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工程有中央做是很好的事情我相信院長也去過新加坡他所有的他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好"},{"start":23423.214,"end":23448.127,"text":"因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以再以更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把"},{"start":23448.667,"end":23468.431,"text":"本來中央政府應該要做的或者地方政府可以做的全部把它混為一談接下來我想請教第二個問題就是說在我們的報告裡面還有特別提到跨年度它的預算問題它的具體性其實看起來比較不足所以跨年度會有什麼樣的困難嗎如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼"},{"start":23478.577,"end":23491.467,"text":"軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者又做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長 院長我剛剛提到的是"},{"start":23495.37,"end":23522.589,"text":"應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例"},{"start":23525.451,"end":23548.971,"text":"治水會有什麼問題如果中央的錢少了中央該做的治水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會 重大的 比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統"},{"start":23549.611,"end":23578.069,"text":"或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是釐清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢"},{"start":23588.686,"end":23594.649,"text":"好 謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問謝副院長後我們是不是請卓院長謝謝"},{"start":23617.577,"end":23618.638,"text":"請卓院長備詢政委好"},{"start":23626.192,"end":23645.552,"text":"左院長我們來揭露一下數字密碼這個數字密碼其實對台南受傷非常的重也就是說在12月20號才化法修法之前如果依照我們台南市的總分配預算我們可以拿到850億"},{"start":23648.374,"end":23674.919,"text":"這當中包括統籌分配款一般型補助款特別統籌分配款還有計劃型補助款所以原本還沒修法之前我們跟行政院有很多的計劃在進行當中我們預計可以拿到850億可是在三讀12月20日修法之後我們只能拿到691億"},{"start":23678.055,"end":23705.044,"text":"也就是說依照統籌分配款就是修法之後拿了485億但是一般型補助款雖然還是維持193億可是我們看到計劃型補助款就是零所以如果依照這整個預算加起來我們就是整整減少了159億"},{"start":23708.248,"end":23736.715,"text":"所以這是我們很害怕很擔憂的地方而且院長這對我們才能是極不公平我們是直轄市可是我們所增列的額度卻是六都的敬培莫作然後如果以全國的征服來說"},{"start":23738.362,"end":23764.305,"text":"居然我們是倒數第二倒數第一是誰 高雄市所以這對我們的南部過去重北輕南是不是我們還要重演過去我們好不容易看到我們南部在小英總統然後現在再加上賴清德總統"},{"start":23766.021,"end":23779.592,"text":"我相信我們可以看到南部的光景可是現在要懲罰市現在國民黨民眾黨要懲罰市的對付南部地方"},{"start":23780.669,"end":23800.766,"text":"這怎麼是我們能夠接受的呢過去那麼長的時間的重北親南好不容易小英總統在我們當時候延續了阿扁總統小英總統之後我們才感受到南部地方有受到重視"},{"start":23802.435,"end":23824.088,"text":"可是 難道在去年12月20號我們修法之後 財化法修法之後我們要走到鐵路嗎我們南部的建設要走到鐵路嗎院長 我們很擔心而且這對我們台南人太不公平了院長怎麼辦"},{"start":23825.626,"end":23843.277,"text":"所以賴總統一直指示我們要全力的推動均衡台灣把台灣要當作一樣的水平來做各種的建設所以南部四縣市我們現在劃定為大南方的新的核心的新矽谷有大南方計畫嗎大南方新矽谷全力要追推動"},{"start":23843.957,"end":23870.867,"text":"但是如果看到現在現行的已經修正過的財務法它確實在某些地方來看下去它有一些這樣的偏頗這個偏頗就是因為它計算的權重用人口營業額來權重就會產生這樣的一個失衡的狀況院長你知道我們當時候一直希望財政部可以修法就是說我們很多在我們台南"},{"start":23875.21,"end":23882.181,"text":"可是他的總公司營運單位在北部但是他稅要交到哪裡去"},{"start":23883.398,"end":23911.673,"text":"交到台北結果每次營業額最多就是在台南你像所有百貨公司不是如此嗎對我們台南怎麼會公平還有很多上市公司上市公司他基本上很多他的工廠是在台南可是他的營運中心在台北"},{"start":23913.665,"end":23929.876,"text":"這樣對我們比較公平用靈靠用硬咬咬這個保分對我們極不公平耶就會造成城鄉差距越大各地的差距越大強者越強弱的地方沒有辦法趕上這個速度院長"},{"start":23932.233,"end":23944.884,"text":"我要拜託你而且我們所看到的是已經有在這個才化法修法之後就已經出現了所謂成鄉的差距"},{"start":23946.343,"end":23973.506,"text":"非常嚴重我們過去很多人都說陳霆飛你當時候擔任民進黨幹部的時候你也支持過要修裁劃法院長我從來沒有反對修裁劃法我反對的是一個不公平的裁劃法沒有對於每一個縣市平等對待的裁劃法"},{"start":23974.454,"end":23986.878,"text":"今天如果這個台灣法會讓我台南市減少這麼多的幫助這麼多的支持你想我能夠支持嗎我能夠支持嗎而且院長"},{"start":23993.148,"end":24018.421,"text":"當時我們支持要修才化法是因為在小英總統還沒上任之前我們聽到很多的縣市都跟我們說他們的薪水要發不出來這個縣市的薪水發不出來那個縣市的薪水發不出來我們就跟小英總統說總統你要改變你要調整在我們的分配當中要做一個調整院長"},{"start":24021.485,"end":24050.172,"text":"在小英總統的時候就已經有做了調整對不對因為當時候的才化法我們也說要來修可是才化法畢竟他知識體大你要這麼短的時間能夠讓每一個縣市都能夠在一個基準點很困難所以小英總統趕快解決發不出薪水的問題所以現在哪一個縣市說發不出薪水"},{"start":24050.492,"end":24057.254,"text":"是兩點跟委員報告所以在2012年地方財政短數是589億到2023年剩餘的數目高達648億這是第一個第二個我們在2016年對地方財政的挹注2016年是5549億2016年就是小英總統就任之後2016年那一年是5549億我們今年"},{"start":24076.039,"end":24082.659,"text":"2025年我們對地方財政的挹注已經達到1兆零150億所以對地方是一直一直在加強的所以嘛"},{"start":24083.905,"end":24108.228,"text":"我們就因為有聽到地方的聲音我們才去做了很多的調整所以在我們當時候聽到很多的縣市說我錢發不出來薪水發不出來還要跟中央借錢當時候是很可憐因為院長你也知道我算是資深我在地方當議員是十年"},{"start":24109.329,"end":24127.409,"text":"在中央立委已經17年了所以我們都很清楚在整個過程當中哪一個問題哪一個時間點有不一樣的需求我們都聽到了民進黨執政是負責任的所以"},{"start":24128.43,"end":24150.816,"text":"當時我們跟小安總統說 總統 發不出薪水的問題一定要改觀所以就將院長剛剛所報告的我們在整個調整之後 整個地方的財源大大的改變你讓它改變之後 而且我們還做了所謂的一般型的計劃補助"},{"start":24152.456,"end":24174.922,"text":"這些補助也就是你只要送計畫我們都可以來協助建設根本不用擔心過去都沒有了甚至在我們小英總統她推了前瞻這個前瞻也是給各縣市我們必須說現在各縣市誰比較多執政是國民黨"},{"start":24176.693,"end":24199.999,"text":"是國民黨咧我覺得就是我們民進黨太客氣了我們過去給國民黨執政的縣市很多的預算可是我們從來沒有講我們都沒有敲鑼打鼓我們都認為這地方需要的我們就要給他我們從來沒有敲鑼打鼓讓全國人民生活的水平都提高了"},{"start":24200.595,"end":24213.447,"text":"我們的責任是這裡嘛而不是跟你搶工嘛但是我們錯了我們真的錯了就像斑斑有冷氣全部都是中央的經費"},{"start":24215.236,"end":24244.223,"text":"我們所有各縣市我們每一個學校的冷氣從改善它的電力因為大家知道很多的學校都是老舊的管線它要裝冷氣是不可能所以我們是從老舊管線開始改善然後再多了所謂的冷氣設備這些是一步一步我們在短短兩年就把它解決了"},{"start":24245.828,"end":24266.928,"text":"可是院長你知道嗎在藍營的縣市敲鑼打鼓從來沒有再跟他們說謝謝民進黨政府給我們這一筆預算沒有在選舉的時候都說你看我幫你們做了斑斑有冷氣你現在可以做民調"},{"start":24270.716,"end":24296.139,"text":"現在有多少人知道斑斑有冷氣全部都是中央支應的預算委員今天講了以後會有更多人知道這很重要啊可是你看我們每次做的永遠都只是在做而讓地方不知道原來這一筆錢都是中央所以你把它統整一下"},{"start":24297.458,"end":24324.321,"text":"在地方上 每一個縣市我們做了多少他現在都說我們沒做啊都說我們沒做 錢不可以拿去賭我們就把它列舉出來每一個縣市 每一個縣市我們就跟他講從過去小英政府替我們縣市所做的哪些是中央所支應的預算一筆一筆把它列出來"},{"start":24325.844,"end":24343.574,"text":"一筆一筆做成圖卡讓各縣市知道這樣才公平啊否則我覺得說對我們中央所有的公務人員非常不公耶大家一起做到要死結果公務都沒在他們的心"},{"start":24344.814,"end":24372.824,"text":"現在一句話 當在政黨對立的時候一句話 就跟你說你中央都沒在做啦你民進黨政府 不可以活著啦什麼叫不可以活著啊如果不可以活著 怎麼可能各縣市的建設會這麼多從交通 從治水這些如果沒有中央支持的話這兩個都是要大筆預算的光靠地方是不可能的"},{"start":24373.908,"end":24387.747,"text":"我從地方議員上來的我非常清楚我們過去光要爭取一個抽水戰難上加難啊可是中央有88治水之後"},{"start":24389.045,"end":24411.665,"text":"那時候在阿扁總統然後到了小英總統的時候有前瞻我們的水環境水資源我們把整個治水預算做了無限延伸你知道我們做了多少大家可能都還不知道說原來直轄市還有那個沒有自來水的"},{"start":24413.001,"end":24439.2,"text":"在那個很偏僻的地方還沒有自來水耶但是我們在前瞻的部分我們讓他解決了讓他不用喝地下水所以我覺得我們做很多但是地方知道的很少因為我們沒有宣傳現在不要忘了是國民黨執政縣市比較多的所以他跟我們講話他去偵查"},{"start":24443.206,"end":24471.018,"text":"一開始說感謝民進黨政府感謝小英總統感謝賴清德總統不會啊還是過去他會說感謝蘇貞昌院長現在感謝卓榮泰院長不會我們現在還有今年還有系統性治水500多億我們也不會分顏色因為水就是無色的水換在哪裡我們就到哪裡去處理淹水是大家都淹"},{"start":24472.199,"end":24487.295,"text":"沒有分顏色啊那為什麼一談到預算的時候國民黨就要分顏色呢南部地方說都民進黨要去選所以你就把我的錢都退掉這是什麼理由我不能接受所以院長"},{"start":24488.649,"end":24512.384,"text":"我們希望這個副議案應該南部的立委不分區域或不分區都應該站出來支持通過這個副議案因為這是我們替人民百姓在顧我們的未來在顧我們的發展在顧我們的建設我們誰都不能置身事外"},{"start":24513.364,"end":24528.507,"text":"這個是我們必須要強調的所以院長加油我們南部不能像這個財化法把我們損失的這麼嚴重把我們台南砍的這麼嚴重我們台南人同樣都是在繳稅納稅好謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長下一位請林思敏委員質詢"},{"start":24555.805,"end":24561.247,"text":"好 謝謝副院長我們請行政院卓院長請卓院長答詢林委員好 卓院長好院長我首先還是直求對決請問你到底支不支持財政收支劃分法的修正"},{"start":24580.62,"end":24604.435,"text":"修正你支不支持這一次的就是財政收支劃分法要修你贊不贊成我剛說過雖然逐年來我們對地方的挹注比較多但是討論如何讓地方財政能夠更有自主在合理的討論下我們都歡迎我們也都願意積極的參與這樣的討論甚至我們也有一個想法好所以你是這就是你贊成修法嗎你是認為要修的"},{"start":24605.492,"end":24622.637,"text":"因為各地都有這樣聲音我們不能去背著大家的意志但是一定要合理的去討論所以你認為要合理討論來修法但是截至目前為止行政院的版本到底完成了沒有我們有很多的方案"},{"start":24623.992,"end":24645.229,"text":"我已經報告過這個方案在12月24號表決之前我們都希望能夠有機會來這裡透過黨團協商來談但是那個禮拜大院發生了一些比較秩序上的問題所以一直沒有辦法有效的展開各種的協商這也是我覺得非常遺憾的地方院長我們來看一下在本屆第一會期開始"},{"start":24646.311,"end":24671.673,"text":"在我們財政委員會總共就有我們藍綠白等委員總共提案了26個財政收支劃分法修法的一個版本那麼在討論的過程中我想部長也非常了解大家一直在等待的就是行政院的版本也就是剛才院長講的所謂的行政院的方案那麼最後"},{"start":24672.998,"end":24689.559,"text":"我們在財政委員會也從善如流包含本席在內我們連署了一個臨時提案那麼臨時提案的內容就是要求財政部在第二會期開議前提出願板請問為何一直沒有提出來"},{"start":24691.844,"end":24706.316,"text":"財政部一直很努力在就這個法案的內容在做精算但是更重要比較難的工作是跟各地方政府做更好的溝通這個工作一直在進行這不是一朝一夕可以完成的好"},{"start":24707.662,"end":24726.956,"text":"院長當然也給你們很充分的時間部長您也講一下為什麼一直沒有提出來跟委員報告財政收支劃分法其實除了跟中央跟地方的權責劃分還有地方跟地方之間的一個如何的分配我們一直認為說我們應該要充分的溝通"},{"start":24727.376,"end":24743.385,"text":"得到最大的共識所以我們事實上從113年的年初開始請各地方政府對於分配的指標提出意見總共有八十幾個指標那財政部一直不斷的跟地方政府在溝通最後也有一個初步的共識在指標的部分我們就把它濃縮了"},{"start":24744.205,"end":24753.171,"text":"只有三個有爭議接下來是有關各個指標的權重要怎麼分配以及指標裡面要不要更細緻的去做調整係數我們認為都應該要詳細的規劃審慎的一個進行所以上次財委會要求我們在"},{"start":24761.315,"end":24781.587,"text":"上個會期能夠提出草案事實上我們在當時也一直很說明說我們認為財化法固然可以修正但是不要倉促的修正我們應該要好好的討論有一個共識過去25年為什麼沒有能夠修法完整就是沒有共識所以我覺得這個部分不需要去那麼倉促那3月6號我們也在開會所以努力是一直在進行的我也贊同您的說法就是說當然要"},{"start":24788.391,"end":24815.241,"text":"去很仔細的再去做這個相關的一個研究但是我比較好奇的說現在要復翼囉現在在復翼的前夕了馬上就要復翼囉現在院長我剛才聽到你從早上到現在你答覆幾位我們委員的這個諮詢你都一直要求說請求委員支持本次行政院的復翼讓行政院可以提出版本"},{"start":24816.94,"end":24845.581,"text":"但是行政院截至目前為止有提供任何的版本給我們立法委員來做一個相關的一個參考或審議嗎到復議的前夕你有提出版本來嗎時間已經那麼久了我贊成剛才部長你講的喔充分的去讓你們有時間去做跟地方政府來做相關的一個研擬但時間已經那麼久一年多了耶所以政府的誠信在哪裡可以這樣一言再言一拖再拖嗎"},{"start":24846.704,"end":24868.044,"text":"委員我必須說我們在總統召開院計協商之前我們跟立法院也有相當的接觸我就不講什麼方式那時候我們提出說在今年那個是去年的事情在今年的六月我們會提出一個版本後來在協商的一兩天當中希望我們在上個會期結束之前提出版本我也答應了"},{"start":24869.085,"end":24892.639,"text":"我也答應了這個無需求證我也答應了但是12月20號就發生了表決的事情後來就沒辦法進行院長您剛才提到我也有參與所以我也了解您剛才說的所以我現在很遺憾的是說到現在馬上要復議了但是您說您也答應了在年底就要提出版本到現在都沒有看到版本"},{"start":24893.795,"end":24918.701,"text":"這到底行政院是到底是有方案還是沒有方案你到底準備好了沒有如果到那時候所說的在今年的六月或是下半年我們提出一個完整的版本那時間上是更充裕如果在上個會期那提出的版本就是提出一個可以被討論的版本那內容可能還要大大的調整在目前為止我們就希望利用這段時間財政部也在不久前3月6號吧"},{"start":24919.521,"end":24941.304,"text":"跟地方政府做了幾次的溝通把問題漸漸的收斂下來那目前這個工作還在進行所以現在還在進行所以到現在為止你都沒有版本你的方案還是沒有出來有幾個方案所謂的行政院版本一定要經過院會我們有幾個方案這個方案如果跟地方溝通大家取得共識我們就會循程序成為行政院的版本"},{"start":24941.664,"end":24969.654,"text":"或者再經過立法院的朝野協商讓它成為一個大家的共識所以院長我也贊同你這樣的說法你也希望趕快提出版本嘛對不對所以你認為就是你剛才一開始也回答我你認為還是要做相關合理的一個修正嘛我們是一致的但是院長我看在去年的10月15號我們看一段影片您答覆在我們本院答覆委員的一個質詢來 放影片"},{"start":24970.543,"end":24990.24,"text":"沒有版本現行的版本我一直強調是現在是最好的版本我們看不到更好的版本所以院長您當時回答您的服務員你說現在的版本就是最好的版本我一直說是最執行起來最有把握的版本在今天要復印以前"},{"start":24992.174,"end":25007.36,"text":"您就跟我們講說您的版本您有在準備一直在找各個部會財政部找各縣市甚至在3月6號您也找各縣市來做相關的一個討論所以截至目前為止都看不到版本"},{"start":25008.22,"end":25034.887,"text":"所以您的意見是不是剛才你又打臉你自己了你根本就是認為現行的版本就是最好的版本現行應該只有一個版本啦我是認為它執行起來是最有把握的但是如果要來調整如果經過合理的這個大家的商量溝通我們很多的方式都在裡面院長我最後這個再給你一次機會請你誠實的告訴國人現在到底行政院的版本已經準備好了沒有"},{"start":25036.159,"end":25037.814,"text":"沒有的話我們如何跟地方談呢"},{"start":25039.301,"end":25067.742,"text":"所以準備好了 有方案有方案那為什麼今天沒有辦法提出給我們本院來做一個審議今天不是在協商這個方案我們今天希望透過賦予的方式讓大家回到現狀我們再把我們的版本跟地方再溝通更好之後提出來一個那如果理想就是朝野各黨團能夠形成一個共識那這個就是立法院跟行政院共同的一個版本你已經準備好了 你也有版本是"},{"start":25068.803,"end":25096.65,"text":"我們有方案還不至於成為版本因為最後還要細修但是你要等到復議之後你才提出來依照你剛剛的說法你是這樣子復議之後重新來審視的時候我們就加快把它形成所以院長你這個說法我們就覺得我們對立法委員非常的不尊重既然要提復議你又不願意在復議之前跟我們所有的國會的立法委員復議之後我們當然要做這樣的努力把你的版本提出來讓大家來檢視"},{"start":25098.676,"end":25119.618,"text":"來做充分的跟每位委員做充分的溝通跟協調行政院是這樣子來跟立法院溝通的嗎對你方案那麼多為什麼沒有辦法跟立法委員做充分的溝通到現在我們今天要做成復議的決定了我們還不知道行政院的版本是什麼"},{"start":25120.399,"end":25136.753,"text":"我今天討論是不一樣我們是針對現行修法過的不一樣當然有一個前提啊 院長我如果不知道您現在提出來的版本是不是會優於我們現在修法的版本我們如何來決定我要投這個票我們先提出的是目前自在難行之處"},{"start":25137.915,"end":25166.575,"text":"我們就會針對這些方式來做修正的方式這個很難說服我們我想我要很理性的告訴你如果經營你提出我們要的就很明確的告訴你把行政院的版本提出來我們是可以跟你來做溝通的跟委員說明一下在3月6號的會議我們已經把水平分配的相關的指標跟權重還有調整係數非常具體的提出來了這個就是未來水平分配可以依據的一個方向"},{"start":25167.288,"end":25177.96,"text":"讓大家來討論這個就已經非常具體了那至於其他的譬如說我們也告訴他我們的修法的方向就是擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模而且要"},{"start":25178.638,"end":25204.176,"text":"可以提升地方的財政自主這個部分這個就是垂直分配我們也提出來而且會優先彌補地方財政收支一個差短而且保障既有的一個財源這是非常具體的一個方向的這個幾乎只是說我們把這個方向認定以後接下來只是落入文字這個是先把方向確認了以後落入文字其實只是後續的工作所以基本上我們是有方案的有方案"},{"start":25205.017,"end":25232.326,"text":"但是我還是要回到我剛才一再而三的提醒院長為什麼不請財政部在利用復議的前夕我們在整個修會有這麼長的一個時間充分的跟國會來做溝通跟協調來討論然後再決定說我們要怎麼樣不管是我們在野黨 國民黨也好 民眾黨也好我們充分溝通討論大家再來決定說"},{"start":25233.706,"end":25254.479,"text":"您提出了復議案我們是不是要做相關的一個做出最後同意或者不同意這樣的一個決定所以我要很遺憾的告訴你到目前看不到版本我真的很難去投下同意您的復議票我這樣要告訴你好 我們來看一下我關心我自己的新竹縣市我也要告訴院長"},{"start":25256.104,"end":25276.245,"text":"新竹縣市在這次2025年我看到的一個我們主計處的一個國庫還有我們國庫署的一個統計表新竹縣這次的如果2025可以分配它的統籌分配稅款大概只有69.2億新竹市是83.97億"},{"start":25279.585,"end":25300.793,"text":"那這個在我們六都以外十六縣市中新竹縣市的排名新竹縣市排名第九新竹市是排名第五如果我們再加上一般性的補助款新竹縣調到第十一名新竹市調到第十二名反而是更往後"},{"start":25301.713,"end":25323.767,"text":"也就是說新竹縣市長期以來在稅收的上繳金額都是名列前茅但總數以及人均獲得的統籌分配稅款卻一直都是在後段班這對新竹縣市來講根本是非常不平等的待遇那麼在這一次的修法之後統籌分配稅款"},{"start":25324.688,"end":25348.544,"text":"各可以分配到185億以及210億均大幅增加了110億以上我想這個對於我們未來新竹縣市大新竹縣市的交通建設教育建設橋樑建設以及河川治理等各種必要的公共建設我們都有自主裁員可以運用所以院長"},{"start":25349.761,"end":25378.885,"text":"在這種情況之下您認為本席會支持您的救治嗎每個委員都有選區以自己的選區為重當然我們都理解院長我只是一個比喻而已我想告訴你就是說對於我們各個縣市而言我想其實我們總表其實我們都已經有很多委員在諮詢的時候也有提出來各個縣市都是大幅增加的"},{"start":25379.966,"end":25404.558,"text":"所以財化法的修正對於落實地方自治它是有很大的一個注意所以在這種情況之下延宕了25年的財化法不修現在終於刪除通過有了一個版本這個版本今天的經濟日報的社論也寫得非常清楚非常的合理當然站在行政院財政部您有您的立場"},{"start":25405.717,"end":25426.49,"text":"但是我們看了整個綜合整個這些各家的媒體的一個報導是認為此次的修正是非常的合理的所以對於這種合理的修法版本行政院到目前您還沒有辦法說服我們說您有更好的版本提出來所以您在復議的前夕告訴我說我要同意你的復議"},{"start":25428.151,"end":25433.898,"text":"院長這對於我們縣市的立法委員真的是投不下這個票啦真的是對我們來講對地方藝術那麼多的的財政收入你勸"},{"start":25446.212,"end":25473.471,"text":"合理的弱化整個國家的整體建設跟國防力量但是您為什麼不提出版本呢這個就是我最大的疑惑已經那麼久了到復議前夕你再跟我講你方案準備好了這是什麼邏輯啊你如何說服國會的立法委員啊我真的是很中肯的告訴行政院很多事情真的要提早做溝通啊而不是等到事情燒到火了你才跟我們講我有版本"},{"start":25480.697,"end":25496.108,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請賴銳龍委員詢答好,謝謝副院長,請卓院長好,請卓院長答詢"},{"start":25506.141,"end":25528.493,"text":"院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨"},{"start":25530.854,"end":25553.603,"text":"他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利 重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席 1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功"},{"start":25555.104,"end":25571.535,"text":"當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重"},{"start":25572.657,"end":25599.448,"text":"每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防"},{"start":25600.465,"end":25629.677,"text":"院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為他的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功"},{"start":25630.197,"end":25645.866,"text":"到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法"},{"start":25646.406,"end":25664.583,"text":"這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票"},{"start":25665.484,"end":25682.772,"text":"全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了每一票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力讓"},{"start":25684.298,"end":25704.056,"text":"更多跟委員 可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長 我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行 我在發揮最會執行希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻 再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案 同意之後是回去重新討論"},{"start":25705.077,"end":25731.273,"text":"重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票"},{"start":25732.013,"end":25759.878,"text":"這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部"},{"start":25761.018,"end":25784.394,"text":"這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部都是獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受"},{"start":25785.094,"end":25808.908,"text":"在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖"},{"start":25814.98,"end":25825.566,"text":"有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整難道"},{"start":25828.089,"end":25855.884,"text":"一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嘛這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回了老路嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維要處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰"},{"start":25856.964,"end":25884.774,"text":"所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看 全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院 行政院都能夠接受的版本"},{"start":25886.475,"end":25905.829,"text":"我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修 該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標"},{"start":25909.311,"end":25935.65,"text":"我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部 高雄 台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候"},{"start":25936.591,"end":25963.786,"text":"新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧濟富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後"},{"start":25964.526,"end":25983.171,"text":"結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱"},{"start":25984.111,"end":26003.163,"text":"成鄉差距越來越大 這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為 財化法未來該修 但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張 我認為對於產業 對於人口 對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":26003.843,"end":26025.923,"text":"我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":26027.348,"end":26043.978,"text":"我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的"},{"start":26044.918,"end":26062.374,"text":"非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長 行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎"},{"start":26065.297,"end":26090.908,"text":"因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎 是嗎"},{"start":26092.305,"end":26118.815,"text":"這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的"},{"start":26120.523,"end":26127.548,"text":"開會的人數又被對 那這樣又是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛 變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長 遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有"},{"start":26136.603,"end":26160.583,"text":"這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍"},{"start":26162.004,"end":26180.95,"text":"藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長現在講到了大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體我各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種"},{"start":26182.834,"end":26192.746,"text":"時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解"},{"start":26193.374,"end":26222.293,"text":"窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家能夠持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下我剛剛講到的空屋的狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重的地區從雲林到高雄"},{"start":26223.759,"end":26225.736,"text":"縣市到南投到台南基本上"},{"start":26226.383,"end":26252.339,"text":"都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的"},{"start":26254.52,"end":26270.321,"text":"院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們也要請環境部將所有的分析環境部也要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行"},{"start":26270.401,"end":26290.583,"text":"因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去"},{"start":26291.965,"end":26314.802,"text":"這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到"},{"start":26316.122,"end":26340.927,"text":"利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣 健康台灣 團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感"},{"start":26342.051,"end":26368.408,"text":"所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的"},{"start":26369.489,"end":26396.276,"text":"投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":26396.596,"end":26409.971,"text":"我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的台灣好富一案是成功的好嗎 院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均與詢答完畢"},{"start":26419.164,"end":26447.6,"text":"行政院所提之財政收支劃分法修正第八條第十六條之一及第三十條條文附議案已審查完均謝謝行政院左院長及相關部會首長列席說明報告全院委員會行政院所提兩案附議案均已審查完均現做以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決向全院委員會報告"},{"start":26449.676,"end":26474.829,"text":"依上星期五院會決定全院委員會審查完畢後同日改開院會進行兩岸複議案記名投票表決我們就定於本日下午4點10分改開院會進行複議案之記名投票表決報告全院委員會全院委員會進行到此為止現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}