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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":775.018,"end":775.119,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":858.029,"end":858.172,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":977.453,"end":983.439,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1326.578,"end":1346.688,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":1358.669,"end":1359.435,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1469.148,"end":1469.229,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1543.434,"end":1544.125,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1574.738,"end":1574.818,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1613.115,"end":1622.176,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1720.64,"end":1721.8,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1817.591,"end":1825.43,"text":"好 我們請組密報告出席人數報告全體會 出席委員13人 1組法定人數"},{"start":1827.878,"end":1832.201,"text":"那我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1848.413,"end":1849.073,"text":"繼續進行報告事項請宣讀"},{"start":1878.277,"end":1905.746,"text":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員練習報告一路概況並備諮詢軒軟筆好像還沒有介紹今天的來我們先介紹今天與會的官員那首先是我們公平交易委員會我們的代理主任委員陳志明陳代理主任委員好謝謝那我們主任秘書毛浩吉"},{"start":1907.529,"end":1919.851,"text":"好謝謝公民教育委員會綜合規劃處處長胡祖順服務業競爭處代理處長陳俊廷謝謝製造業競爭處處長胡光宇公平競爭處處長沈麗玉法律事務處代理處長楊義昌"},{"start":1938.152,"end":1960.111,"text":"資訊及經濟分析室主任鄭嘉琳秘書室主任曹樹偉人事室主任陳榮欽主計室主任陳盈環政風室主任何定偉"},{"start":1961.834,"end":1973.114,"text":"好 那以上就是我們今天與會的官員那我們本日議程是安排公平交易委員會進行業務報告我們現在請陳志明代理主委報告"},{"start":1985.033,"end":2010.851,"text":"主席各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早安大院第十一屆第三會期開議個人很榮幸能夠代表公平會來經濟委員會提出我們的業務報告並請大院對本會的施政予以繼續的支持跟指教以下我請就本會近期的重要業務跟各位委員來提出一個簡單的說明也請希望委員能夠多多指教"},{"start":2012.112,"end":2027.758,"text":"公平會負責公平交易法及多層次傳銷法的主管機關負責調查處理事業的相關的一些競爭問題還有多層次傳銷的一個傳銷秩序的維護所以在執法是我們一個很重要的一個項目"},{"start":2029.139,"end":2050.989,"text":"那近期查處的重大案件像如投影片所示我們在聯合行為的查處部分我們處分了八家圖書經銷業者合意維持交易的一個折扣那另外針對台中台南高雄的所降職業工會他們聯合設定這個開鎖的價目表我們也處分禁止他做這樣的一個行為"},{"start":2051.869,"end":2073.445,"text":"那另外針對醫療重要的產品譬如說這個關節內注射劑有業者在實施轉售價格的維持那在經過我們調查以後我們也把它認定為違法並受到處分確保民眾不要受這個價格維持限制所帶來的不利益那布施廣告一直都是本會的重要業務那我想近期我們處分過的"},{"start":2074.426,"end":2090.21,"text":"比較值得跟各位來報告的是有關信義房屋在不時刊載傳家寶社區的成交紀錄案那另外有業者不當的對外刊載不時的預留銀行的貸款額度還有什麼銀行的信託保證的廣告案"},{"start":2090.71,"end":2104.681,"text":"那這些不實的資訊都可能會導致消費者做出錯誤的消費決定也經過我們的處分要求他停止再繼續做這樣的行為那多層次傳銷也是我們積極在管理的一個部分那近期我們針對兩個事業"},{"start":2107.604,"end":2122.361,"text":"沒有依規定來向本會報備變更這個傳銷商品還有沒有再開始實施這個傳銷前來跟本會報備我們也都有加以的處分那結合審查也是一個本會一個重要的一個業務項目"},{"start":2123.883,"end":2142.683,"text":"那結合審查過去我們一直試著要簡化這個結合的程序讓業者在申報結合的時候能夠更快速更便利的因為結合畢竟都有一些時效上的要求但是結合審查結合以後對市場競爭的影響是我們在審查裡面最重要要關注的一個問題"},{"start":2143.664,"end":2159.675,"text":"那本會在近期內的一些相關的結合案也是在投影片列出請委員參考其中值得跟委員來報告的是當然是眾所矚目的Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的這個結合案那這個結合案是我們社會高度關注的一個案子"},{"start":2159.975,"end":2175.371,"text":"那在我們做出裁處的決定之前我們召開了很多的座談會跟相關的業者學者專家還有相關的工會還有政府機關我們來聽取他們對這個結合案的一個看法跟想法那"},{"start":2176.071,"end":2191.138,"text":"我們所碰觸的議題非常廣泛從除了外送員還有對市場競爭的影響結合以後的市場價格的變動等等經過相當深入的經濟分析以後我們本會認為這個結合案對市場競爭是有補利的影響"},{"start":2191.758,"end":2210.169,"text":"那這個不利影響也無法藉由負負擔來加以決定所以我們在113年的12月25號的委員會裡面我們決議禁止這個結合那另外最近的一個結合案就是台新金融控跟星光金控的結合案那這個案子我們也是投入了不少的時間跟資源做相當詳細的經濟上的分析"},{"start":2212.23,"end":2239.158,"text":"那最後認為這個結合案有利於市場的競爭那對市場競爭未來的限制效果不是顯著的所以我們也通過了這個結合案那永續發展是全世界各國目前都非常高度重視的那我國也是一樣那永續發展在制定相關的政策所以綠色我們本會基於這樣一個趨勢我們也制定了一個企業的綠色轉型的一個"},{"start":2240.959,"end":2261.362,"text":"一個指引那我們在113年開始著手研擬這個參考的指引這個指引的目的是希望能夠提供國內的業者在落實永續經營還有綠色轉型的過程當中可能有些個相關的事業的作為會跟公平法的規定有一些相抵觸的地方"},{"start":2262.003,"end":2287.519,"text":"那我們藉由這個指引希望能夠提供業者一個明確的方針讓他知道說哪些個紅線是不能踩的所以在這個指引裡面我們明確的列出可做的作為還有絕對禁止的行為還有必須要跟本會來申請經過本會審核以後才可以做的一個行為那我們希望藉由這樣的指引能夠讓業者能夠一個明確的營業的一個相關的一個參考那降低違法的風險"},{"start":2288.78,"end":2303.076,"text":"那不實廣告是本會業務的大眾向來我們都處理很多的一個不實廣告那除了個案的採取之外我們對於不實廣告的預防宣導還有各方面的一個這個跟媒體之間"},{"start":2304.097,"end":2314.506,"text":"透過媒體來傳遞不實廣告的類型希望民眾能夠特別小心這個有些不實廣告的一些類型不要被騙那這個我們都是齊頭並進來進行那傳銷事業"},{"start":2320.509,"end":2336.484,"text":"在我國是一個非常重要的商業活動我們的統計是從事傳銷事業人數已經超過了370萬人那整體的營業額超過1000億台幣那為了保護這個傳銷事業的教育秩序跟傳銷商的權益呢那我們持續的在監督"},{"start":2337.705,"end":2359.659,"text":"多層次傳銷的一個相關的交易的一個秩序那我們也積極查處不法的傳銷行為那加強審查傳銷報備案件我們也會進行實地的傳銷業務檢查那除此之外我們也辦理了多層次傳銷的管理系統的線上操作還有管銷多層次傳銷法令的規範的說明會來強化業者跟民眾對傳銷法規的認識還有風險的意識"},{"start":2366.343,"end":2394.237,"text":"那另外就是有關財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金我們也會持續的監督跟輔導希望他能夠扮演多一點的功能特別是對於傳銷商權益的保護的部分那法規是持續不斷的要精進的特別是整個的市場交易狀況經常都在變動那這點本會也是非常的積極在隨時在檢討法規的妥適性那近年來由於電子商務的快速發展所以事業附會像"},{"start":2395.477,"end":2423.516,"text":"這個搜索引擎來購買關鍵字廣告或者說利用搜索引擎來優化的方式那這些常常會引發一些搭便車或是一些不當攀附競爭對手商域的爭議那一樣我們為了希望能夠讓這些爭議的解決方式能夠提供業者一些比較明確的依據所以我們在113年的12月我們訂立了一個公平交易委員會對於網路關鍵字廣告相關案件的處理原則那希望能夠對事業在行銷"},{"start":2425.698,"end":2451.876,"text":"產品或服務的時候能夠有所遵循避免觸法那另外113年的多層次傳銷管理法我們修正加入用電子文件製作來參加契約那我們有召開座談會然後甚至於我們制定了一些問答集希望能夠讓業者知道這樣的一個制度所帶來的便利性也讓業者知道如何去運用這樣的一個制度來優化整個傳銷事業的環境"},{"start":2454.077,"end":2476.809,"text":"其他的修法部分我們公民交易委還修正了事業侵害著作權、商標權或專利權警告函案件處理原則這些對於科技業對於他們在實施制裁權來進行相關的產品的銷售或競爭的時候這些都是他們必須要注意到的一些法規的規定"},{"start":2478.03,"end":2493.969,"text":"那物價的漲跌是整體經濟活動的綜合表現但是物價的變動如果說有涉及到人為的操控或者是有其他的反市場競爭的行為的時候這個時候可能也會妨礙到市場價格機能的運作那"},{"start":2495.351,"end":2511.01,"text":"當出現這樣的現象的時候本會就會積極的進行查處這個刻意的哄抬聯合漲價的一個行為那本會也是行政院穩定物價小組跟物價聯合計查小組的議員那我們會積極的我們過去一直持續跟積極的跟經濟部農業部"},{"start":2513.072,"end":2538.471,"text":"還有法務部內政部等相關部費對於這個物價的波動背後的原因還有查處必要的時候進行溯源的調查我們都有積極的在參與那我們也會去注意到農畜產品的像這個小麥麵粉黃豆沙拉油等等這些民生必需產品的一些價格的波動情況還有它的試礦的情況那主要目的還是希望不要有人為操控跟聯合行為"},{"start":2539.292,"end":2566.882,"text":"那另外針對重要捷徑譬如說三捷、春捷、端午捷、中秋捷這些相關的應景的產品是不是有違反公平交易法的可能我們都會這是例行性固定的都會進行市場的調查我們會實際到各個市場去了解一下這些應景產品的價格的波動的情況那除了調查以外我們也會宣導每次到了這個捷徑的時候我們會透過媒體來跟民眾還有工會來宣導不要進行聯合定價的行為"},{"start":2567.842,"end":2577.331,"text":"那為了增進各界對本會的主管法規的認識強化民眾知法守法的意識那本會也十分重視這個競爭倡議的工作我們113年的時候選定跟幾個產業還有民生相關的重要議題"},{"start":2583.677,"end":2605.743,"text":"預售屋的交易流通業瓦斯安全器材不時廣告多層次傳銷我們切合產業需要辦了很多的說明會那我們並主動的走入企業界所以我們辦理了公平交易法G2B的直達車我們提供客製化的訓練課程如果企業有需要我們就依照他們的需要他們想關心的議題我們來制定上課的教材"},{"start":2606.443,"end":2625.414,"text":"那113年的時候我們首度跟法官學院合辦了經濟分析看公平教育法這樣的一個訓練課程那因為公平法這部法律跟經濟有密切的關係那我們希望能夠跟法官來進行一定程度的交流讓他知道在整個公平法裡面經濟分析所可以扮演的角色所以我們第一次舉辦這樣的一個研習會"},{"start":2628.684,"end":2644.886,"text":"我們希望能夠做過這樣的方式來提高這個案件執法的品質那針對大學院校還有偏鄉地區原住民新住民還有婦女長者的我們也辦理了公平教育法跟多層次傳銷的訓練營主要是提供這些民眾"},{"start":2646.107,"end":2666.036,"text":"能夠有機會可以了解一下這些重要的相關法規的內涵那在國際交流的部分也是本會的一個重點本會向來在國際交流上是非常的積極包含OECD ICN等等我們都定期的會參與這樣的會議那在去年我們也跟巴拉圭的競爭委員會簽訂的這個所謂的競爭法適用的一個協定"},{"start":2669.818,"end":2686.091,"text":"那未來透過這些協定我們希望能夠強化彼此之間的執法那在去年委員會舉辦的ICN這個國際競爭網絡的結合研討會總共有來自40多國的競爭法主管機關還有學者站加200多人參加那作為一個奉行自由經濟體制的議員"},{"start":2688.612,"end":2712.887,"text":"競爭是國家進步經濟成長的重要基石那面對國內外經濟環境的快速變遷本會一定會持續本職職責來推動優化的競爭環境那也希望以後 今後期希望各位委員能夠繼續給予本會的支持跟指導那以上報告 敬請指教好 謝謝我們陳代理主委的報告"},{"start":2714.161,"end":2736.42,"text":"那我們現在開始進行詢答委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記都跟以往一樣那我們現在請登記第一位的邱奕穎委員發言"},{"start":2743.032,"end":2748.206,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳代理主委請陳代理主委"},{"start":2756.57,"end":2782.286,"text":"邱元昭 早大理主委我想您擔任副主委的期間有多長4年4年了好像非常少有機會讓您站到備詢台尤其我們去年我在質詢的時候已經有先預判到萬一公平會主委有懸缺的時候萬一人事案"},{"start":2783.126,"end":2809.772,"text":"沒有辦法通過的時候會面臨到什麼狀況很快的現在就是這樣的一個狀態那這個公平會的人事案呢李美跟洪才龍被聯手封殺所以你們原來是有七席的委員現在剩下五席嘛對不對您剛的報告其實講了非常多你們的業務我要請教一下現在剩下五席的狀況"},{"start":2812.113,"end":2826.392,"text":"業務運作會不會受到影響你們的會議品質會不會受到影響萬一中間有遇到委員必須要利益迴避的案件的時候會不會有產生人數不足導致沒有辦法開會那"},{"start":2828.294,"end":2850.769,"text":"要怎麼做來先就有利益衝突要迴避的時候我想這個可能性是有的如果說真的遇到有利益迴避那委員必須要迴避有可能會遇到人數不足的問題是那至於業務那你們公民會的業務很顯然就會立刻受到影響就會受到影響會就開不成了會就開不成了嘛對 是會有這樣的問題不過這個案子我們希望也不要太多要不然就沒辦法處理了"},{"start":2851.63,"end":2865.591,"text":"你希望不要太多但是有些案子不是你能夠掌控的對不對有一些你的這些公平交易的案子送上來不是你主委說這個我要接這個我不接這個可能會有利益迴避的問題所以我就不接所以未來的這個情況"},{"start":2867.512,"end":2890.547,"text":"有可能還是會持續的發生會持續的存在公平會的運作裡頭嗎是不是這樣好這個呢剛剛我想這個我們提到了很多的這些案件副主委您自己怎麼樣定位即使你現在是代理的主委你怎麼樣定位您現在的角色跟未來的方向我可不可以聽一下您的看法"},{"start":2891.616,"end":2913.583,"text":"我想現在是代理主委嘛那理論就是我做的工作就是主委做的工作所以主委所應該要盡到的責任當然就是我必須盡到的責任那對於未來的規劃我想公平會過去長期的執法已經建立了一些規範這些規範基本上如果可行而且運作上沒有障礙我會持續的遵循這些規劃當然有些地方是需要改進的"},{"start":2914.443,"end":2931.622,"text":"那這個部分我也會積極來跟同仁來做溝通過去很多時候我們在立法院裡頭包括你們的法規的修訂啦包括你們的案件審查的時序啦或者是等等這一些其實有過非常多的討論但是我們過去很少"},{"start":2932.884,"end":2944.563,"text":"應該是說比較少討論到你們的預算被刪減之後對公平會所產生的影響主委我想跟您請教一下如果就"},{"start":2945.816,"end":2952.961,"text":"我們通過的總預算公平匯你們的預算是被刪除526萬並凍結業務費30%這30%大概是1200多萬"},{"start":2963.127,"end":2978.595,"text":"那看起來好像對你們的影響不是太大因為這個錢其實很少但是呢你們在南部聯合服務中心有派駐兩位同仁喔雖然我的總的這個預算刪減沒有刪減到你這個部分但是南部"},{"start":2979.867,"end":3002.252,"text":"聯合服務中心的業務費是被刪掉百分之百請問你們這兩位同仁還能不能上班還能不能執行業務要不要去執行業務該如何執行業務主委可不可以請問一下就跟剛剛委員所講的因為南部預算中心南部中心的預算並不是在我們會裡面這邊來負責當然實質上也會影響到所以那個部分"},{"start":3003.172,"end":3031.609,"text":"其實說實在我也沒辦法提出一個什麼解決方法因為這個就是就是整體的我不要叫你提出解決方法我現在要知道是說你們的運作模式會不會受到影響比如說你現在南部中心的業務百分之百業務費都被刪除了嘛所以他在執行業務上面就會有很多的困難嘛水電衛生紙基本的文書需求等等這些都在業務費的向下嘛那你們的同仁要怎麼辦自備"},{"start":3033.189,"end":3057.381,"text":"衛生紙自備紙筆自備所有要開會的東西還是說這些東西從台北運送下來從台北帶下來還是你這兩位同仁乾脆就直接回到台北上班同仁還是在上班只是說在上班在南部上班在南部上班那他們現在的上班情況工作狀況有沒有受到什麼重大的影響"},{"start":3060.692,"end":3074.449,"text":"這個不業務會持續的執行有人了解一下嗎對 但是我們業務實施執行因為預算的三節也會的確會影響到某些一些業務推廣但是我們還是盡量不要讓它影響到民眾的權益這個"},{"start":3076.311,"end":3100.919,"text":"主委可能公平會並不直接第一線那麼多的接觸民眾所以你大概還不知道你們現在的業務被刪減之後你會面臨到的問題我就舉一個剛剛您的報告裡頭提到參與國際重要會議我不曉得您這個報告是什麼時候寫的那你講的很重要的是你們有很多國際交流跟政策的推動對不對是好"},{"start":3103.462,"end":3126.887,"text":"你知道你的國際旅費被刪多少錢嗎60%你被刪了60%然後你洋洋灑灑跟我寫了這麼多你要做的國際交流請問你要怎麼做我只問你這一條就好跟委員報告一下我們寫的是過去已經做了未來的確已經受到影響我可以跟委員講就是說將來參與國際事務目前我們已經受到很大的一個限制"},{"start":3127.947,"end":3156.406,"text":"可能影響到的就是將來派出去同仁受訓或是跟國外交流的人數我們必須要控管甚至有些會議我們就沒辦法參加了所以的確是有產生因為這個63%減對國際業務推展所以未來會怎麼樣我們還是這是一個挑戰所以主委啊我覺得你剛剛的業務報告啊你其實應該很清楚告訴大家現在的預算刪減到這樣的時候對於你業務所產生的影響你不是報喜不報憂啊你現在講的這些東西都是你未來做的"},{"start":3157.726,"end":3181.254,"text":"持續性的常態性你們都會做這些國際交流嘛我現在只有跟你講一個國際交流你被刪了60%你有很多工作是不能做的其實你應該在業務報告的時候提出來啊否則我們在檢討你的業務的時候發現你業務報告講一堆結果你沒有辦法做到那其實也是你帶乎職守啊這個立法委員就職下來還是罵你雖然預算是他們砍的"},{"start":3183.601,"end":3206.466,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西很務實的要去面對預算被刪減了之後你的整體業務推動會面臨到什麼樣的困境你其實在這一期的業務報告裡頭你就要很清楚的講所以我接下來要再請教您一個問題剛剛在講到這個聯合壟斷的事情公平會其實處理很多叫聯合壟斷這個叫做配鎖工會"},{"start":3212.185,"end":3235.051,"text":"這些鎖匙 鎖匙的這些工會 他們最近接到你們的警告說呢 他們這個工會有一個聯合定價的標準這個已經行之多年了 從民國78年成立以來 他們就有一些參考的價目但是你們現在發了一個警告函給他 你說這個叫違法 這個叫聯合壟斷"},{"start":3238.251,"end":3257.819,"text":"所以這些工會的人就很緊張啊他對民國七十八年開始就大家討論說 我這配色差不多是太多了 開色差不多是太多了大家有一個range 有一個收費的標準 不會讓人家隨便哄抬價格過去的運作都很順利 結果你們現在跟他說 你這叫做聯合壟斷 以後我可能會給你開罰"},{"start":3262.748,"end":3281.661,"text":"這是一個鎖匙工會提到的去年呢也有很多醫生來跟我反映掛號費衛福部說可以漲價所以呢醫師公會他們就去討論了掛號費到底要怎麼漲可以漲多少所以醫師公會大概有討論了一個range結果醫師公會也收到你們警告信說這個叫聯合壟斷"},{"start":3284.278,"end":3304.387,"text":"到底聯合壟斷的定義是什麼如果他訂定了一個合理的收費標準收費範圍這樣是不是也叫聯合壟斷法條上面是這樣子解釋的嗎主委我請教一下跟委員報告一下聯合行為在公平法裡面是規範最嚴格的行為就是說原則上你就是不能做聯合行為"},{"start":3304.927,"end":3330.262,"text":"當然委員有談到配所有一個合理的Range讓消費者知道大概要多少錢這個其實都可以依照公平法第15條的規定來申請豁免我們是有提供業者可以集體來提供豁免你這樣有哪些行業是可以申請豁免或是說這些工會要自己個別去申請你們有人去跟他們做過這樣子的溝通或者是說明或者是宣導宣導都有但是申請還是他們必須要主動來申請"},{"start":3331.303,"end":3350.152,"text":"透過工會等等來申請那我現在跟你舉例的這個例子比如說他現在收到了你們這個警告信他如果是可以符合豁免的是不是也能夠請你們主動來再去跟他們說明一下再去宣導然後通知他們來申請豁免我覺得有一些行業要避免被"},{"start":3351.132,"end":3377.39,"text":"胡亂哄抬價格 被胡亂收費所以它有可能產生一個定收費的標準但是我不認為這個叫聯合壟斷當然你認為在公平交易法裡頭訂定得非常清楚 可是我覺得有一些定義 或者是說有一些行業別你還是要把它作為稍微有一點區分喔這個部分是不是能夠請你們再講是 我們會讓民眾知道在公平法對於這些特殊情況的一些可行的感到好 OK 謝謝"},{"start":3379.773,"end":3400.381,"text":"好 謝謝邱映穎委員那我們下一位請呈謝謝好來我們先確認議事錄有錯誤或錯誤沒有好那我們議事錄確定好那我們下一位請林黛華委員質詢有請主委來請主委"},{"start":3413.953,"end":3438.997,"text":"好 這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者 主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項 外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼"},{"start":3439.697,"end":3456.785,"text":"好在这个外送平台的这个决策当中在去年11月28号本席也提出咨询关切那我也绝对尊重你们的决议但是你要注意到你的决策是会对企业的冲击跟影响是巨大的"},{"start":3457.345,"end":3472.395,"text":"也因為你們以外送平台Uber Eats併購Food Append招公平會以競爭餘力大駁回所以Uber Eats他決定終止併購Food Append的台灣他要支付多少錢"},{"start":3475.197,"end":3499.007,"text":"82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要我們看公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要研擬多層次傳銷的政策"},{"start":3499.747,"end":3507.312,"text":"完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本性也"},{"start":3509.476,"end":3515.038,"text":"這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡"},{"start":3533.993,"end":3537.845,"text":"在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼"},{"start":3541.513,"end":3567.699,"text":"主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬出了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來"},{"start":3569.259,"end":3598.237,"text":"很明顯他這個組織機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義"},{"start":3598.897,"end":3611.585,"text":"也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策"},{"start":3614.827,"end":3623.612,"text":"制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個"},{"start":3632.218,"end":3651.535,"text":"輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是"},{"start":3652.296,"end":3675.829,"text":"因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔"},{"start":3676.509,"end":3692.955,"text":"這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會"},{"start":3705.879,"end":3731.52,"text":"好 這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好 您說交給他那我也很認真的喔 今天早上我還給他Google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中有所謂的策略資源 專業知識 整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來 您說看看"},{"start":3734.105,"end":3759.943,"text":"我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要沒有我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完"},{"start":3760.643,"end":3768.933,"text":"因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼"},{"start":3776.083,"end":3780.409,"text":"需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性"},{"start":3791.425,"end":3809.899,"text":"我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你今天認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔"},{"start":3817.667,"end":3823.362,"text":"財政部下銀行整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會他要問你"},{"start":3826.718,"end":3849.846,"text":"好 那如果只要任何 我任何的只要要診病我都要問你 我光是一個這個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要診病我也要問你 這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你 你這才是叫公平競爭的督導那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展"},{"start":3853.927,"end":3863.553,"text":"這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導"},{"start":3874.66,"end":3879.464,"text":"好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好"},{"start":3896.917,"end":3909.216,"text":"來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是它絕對不是一個能源政策"},{"start":3910.441,"end":3934.534,"text":"的一個一個一個一個一個主管機關 他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署 你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷"},{"start":3936.175,"end":3958.868,"text":"所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼"},{"start":3959.668,"end":3967.194,"text":"那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢去研議吧"},{"start":3979.507,"end":4002.293,"text":"這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你口中我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦"},{"start":4007.014,"end":4029.845,"text":"沒有 你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到 主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的 你認不認同"},{"start":4031.243,"end":4035.429,"text":"我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內"},{"start":4040.336,"end":4060.563,"text":"很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的"},{"start":4064.764,"end":4082.608,"text":"這個相關的如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好"},{"start":4085.063,"end":4106.742,"text":"包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":4109.364,"end":4137.187,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":4138.388,"end":4143.732,"text":"委員如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層床下那個是一個組織的改變OK你一定要設一個你要一個處或組因為在你的執掌當中欸 主委啊看清楚 你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":4166.087,"end":4181.855,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在綜合放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下"},{"start":4182.555,"end":4190.637,"text":"主委啊 您是博士啊 因為有人建議涉及到整個組織當然啊 所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關 根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類 那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管 你沒有手腳 你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的主委好 謝謝"},{"start":4212.52,"end":4219.183,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝戴華委員來我們下一位請陳婷菲委員質詢謝謝主席 召委我們請代理主委來請主委"},{"start":4236.769,"end":4255.658,"text":"主委最近台積電的議題非常夯那現在一直在討論說台積電未來如果跟英特爾合併有合併的相關計畫或是合作的計畫那這個部分我們公平會會扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":4256.475,"end":4276.883,"text":"首先說明說台積電跟英特爾合併目前就是在媒體上的傳聞那個當事人都還沒有證據證實那本會對於這個結合的立場就是說如果將來真的發生這樣的事情那當然第一個我們要看的是他們合作的模式到底是怎麼樣如果是符合我們公平法的結合那以他們的市佔率也好已經達到那個門檻我們當然必須要審查 對"},{"start":4280.393,"end":4304.701,"text":"怎麼審查?審查就是依照一般的結合案件我們在處理水平結合UberEat等等就是有一套的標準來審查這個東西但科技業比較特別的是創新的因素可能我們也會納入一個沈重的考慮主委因為我想他們兩個是極大的這個真的是大事"},{"start":4305.919,"end":4328.016,"text":"而且對於我們台灣來講如果說依照他們的營業額是一定要我們審查的啦那是不可能沒心知這兩個這麼大的企業如果做一個結合或合併其實那真的是國際間的大事所以我們應該要準備好"},{"start":4329.178,"end":4348.151,"text":"因為現在雖然媒體不斷的在討論我們也還沒有得到這些訊息可是我們勢必要有所準備萬一發生了我們是不是有這樣的能力去審查這樣的一個相關的機制"},{"start":4349.071,"end":4372.102,"text":"這才是重點有 我們內部已經有在準備了有在準備嗎有在準備 對所以有在因應這個事件的發生對 就是未來看他們的情況發展我們事先都有一些因為我覺得一定要讓人民安心為什麼我今天會特別提出這個問題因為台積電他投資一千億在美國一千億美元"},{"start":4373.413,"end":4401.668,"text":"基本上從我們的國安跟我們的經濟其實我們的總統都有掌握很清楚的訊息可是因為我們不方便對外說這是商業機密我們沒有辦法去代替台積電去跟大家說清楚可是卻被誤解了說我們是人家已經結了婚我們才知道"},{"start":4403.325,"end":4409.785,"text":"但並不是如此所以我今天會跟您提醒說媒體已經吵得沸沸揚揚了"},{"start":4411.243,"end":4439.245,"text":"但是我們必須跟人民署說的我們公平會也準備好了我們一定有能力審查這個跟委員說明這個能力非常重要不要說事情發生了然後人家質疑一我們沒有辦法回答質疑二沒辦法回答這會寄所謂台積電到美國投資一千億美元這樣的訊息可能會在一級的重砲"},{"start":4441.485,"end":4461.756,"text":"所以這個對台灣的經濟影響層面其實人民也知道在所謂的投資跟擴廠每一個企業體他一定會在每一個世界每一個國家的點去做他自己最有力有效的一個擴廠"},{"start":4463.553,"end":4471.143,"text":"所以在台積電它已經擴大到全世界都需要它的晶片"},{"start":4473.024,"end":4497.216,"text":"所以他勢必一定要在全世界設廠跟我們台灣的能量其實沒有影響因為我們台灣我們還是在接單我們的擴廠還是繼續沒有影響到台積電在原本台灣設廠的一個計畫並沒有可是現在大家就會有很多的故事會產生"},{"start":4499.414,"end":4522.674,"text":"我跟委員報告啦 如果針對目前大家關切的議題從競爭的部分 從公平會接受審查的部分現在大家關心的議題在我們的架構底下我們都可以審查所以我覺得代理主委在現階段媒體潮的沸沸揚揚的當中勢必我們也應該要對外表達我們的態度沒有問題 我們也準備好了"},{"start":4524.175,"end":4551.602,"text":"必须要进到我们公平会审查的机制只要是在法规已经到了我们国家所定定的标准那么我们审查是没有问题我觉得应该要对外很清楚的表达第二个部分就是说我们公平交易法其实从2023年的6月预告修法草案到现在"},{"start":4553.112,"end":4578.577,"text":"請問我們現在的進度是如何我們的修法草案也經過對外徵詢 學者專家座談其實我們已經擬出我們的版本 目前已經在行政院已經在行政院 院會討論對 未來就配合行政院那邊的進度對 那院會討論了嗎還沒有討論還沒討論 對那你從2023 6月預告修法草案到現在然後到目前今年是幾年了2025來"},{"start":4582.137,"end":4609.406,"text":"居然行政院院會還沒討論你知道現在的公平交易法為什麼過去到現在過去那已經是沒有辦法符合現在所謂整個交易市場的一個趨勢所以很多法已經沒有辦法控制現在目前所謂交易的狀況導致人家在想辦法"},{"start":4611.252,"end":4627.029,"text":"對我們的消費者其實是很大的一個壓力甚至每一次檢舉都沒有辦法到位因為我們的法就已經沒有辦法來保護到我們所有的在交易一方弱勢的部分"},{"start":4629.166,"end":4633.488,"text":"我想委員提的就是我們要修法的原因要與時俱進那我們會持續來跟行政院那邊來溝通2023年6月預告修法草案到現在"},{"start":4642.321,"end":4668.751,"text":"我們提的案我有提修法草案也就是針對整個事業結合申報的門檻擴大聯合行為規範的範疇修正行政調查的規定還有真定判決書一定要登載在新聞電子報當中讓大家知道哪些是惡質的一個企業行為讓他們清楚哪些已經被判了"},{"start":4669.531,"end":4697.719,"text":"我們所有的一個消費行為就要小心還有要修正違法結合的行政責任規定還有強化不公平競爭的監管力度還有效果我們現在的監管力度太低了所以每次只要檢舉到我們公平會最後都是查無實證結束掉那對於"},{"start":4699.099,"end":4710.308,"text":"弱勢的一方是很傷所以強者越強弱者越弱是現在公平教育法裡面所呈現的不公平狀態"},{"start":4712.202,"end":4735.245,"text":"所以大家期待這一部法令的修法期待那麼久為什麼修不出來2023年6月預告到現在居然到現在修不出來原因在哪裡我想這裡面主要是在修法的這幾點當中有些點社會當中有一些比較不一樣的看法那需要再進一步的討論就對外徵詢裡面有一些想法"},{"start":4735.885,"end":4763.714,"text":"是啊對外徵詢完之後我們要利用這些徵詢意見的不同陸續去開很多的協調會跟座談會然後代理主委我要報告當然會有漢格啊當弱勢的一方跟強勢的一方會不會有漢格你要站在哪一個位置我們要保護弱勢的一方啊當我們保護他的時候"},{"start":4764.895,"end":4778.408,"text":"我們給予強勢的一方更多的監管當然他們會有意見啊他們不會那麼笨吧笨到不會為自己表達意見可是是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度"},{"start":4780.458,"end":4799.207,"text":"你公平會站在哪一個角度對啊 事實上我們持續都有在跟這些不同意見來做一些溝通的對啊 重點是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度嘛你要站在弱勢的一方還是強勢的一方嘛你要怎麼去做一個平台去調和嘛我們的職責當然是從保護市場競爭來落實保護消費者是啊所以當然會有漢格啊"},{"start":4805.441,"end":4825.192,"text":"那如果你因為漢革因為大家意見不同一直拖我告訴你公民教育法修不出來絕對修不出來我們都持續要更新怎麼沒有拖2023年6月預告到現在預告到現在現在已經2025年的3月份了"},{"start":4826.294,"end":4849.083,"text":"所以我想因為現在在行政院那邊 我們會持續跟行政院來看這個進度多久 你預計多久 你覺得多久還是你要跟我講說 我們再請公平教育委員會的主委出來之後再說那時候要出來 什麼時候要出來不知道我想這部分我們還是要跟行政院這邊來密切的來溝通一下對 多久你們預計嘛"},{"start":4850.524,"end":4873.879,"text":"你們預計多久嘛從2023年6月拖到現在馬上要兩年了因為行政院那邊還有很多的他們要處理很多事所以你也不敢定時間嘛所以就表示說這是遙遙無期的嘛可是你知道這個遙遙無期會影響多少在市場競爭弱勢一方他的權益我們知道啦我們會會謹記在心啦會持續的來關切這個問題那個主委"},{"start":4880.489,"end":4899.212,"text":"我需要一個月給我報告進度好不好報告現在到底到哪一個進度我沒有說叫你一個月要申出來啦我沒有那麼殘忍因為我知道這當中有多必須要協調的一個月報告進度好嗎 謝謝等一下"},{"start":4909.138,"end":4911.64,"text":"好謝謝廷輝委員那我們下一位請張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":4952.516,"end":4966.62,"text":"有關你知道很關注的台積電去投資Intel甚至是進一步的這個結合現在一方面是因為路透社已經報導了因為川普那邊的壓力非常的大"},{"start":4968.322,"end":4993.588,"text":"那公平會這邊的角色非常重要的現在不是只有台灣的龍頭跟美國的龍頭要結合這裡面更重要的是什麼?那台積電是賺錢的他們現在是撩錢撩槓所以才會出現前陣子經濟部長郭志輝失言就講了蒙古政這個事情所以現在公平會的責任就非常非常的重大了這個結合案你剛剛講了幾個重點第一個你說"},{"start":4997.642,"end":5020.956,"text":"一定會審嘛 對不對 如果這個事情成真 對不對如果符合結合的定義 因為我們不曉得他們合作的模式會怎樣因為如果符合結合的定義 符合這個是會審的他依照目前的市佔率跟營業額應該是應該 等一下講一次真的 剛剛什麼 在什麼狀況下應該是符合的符合公民交易法的結合定義 我們公民交易法第四條有定義什麼叫結合目前看起來 你說目前照這個第十條是符合的嘛 對不對"},{"start":5021.816,"end":5038.203,"text":"規模我不曉得因為他們合作模式可能是不見得會構成結合如果是不見得會涉及到收購股權或是合資這樣的東西他可能單純譬如說在美國設立一個百分之百的子公司等等類似這種模式那有可能不是公平法的結合如果不是我們當然就審判兩個槍"},{"start":5040.384,"end":5066.302,"text":"兩個台灣最強跟美國最強的這個結合看起來就是符合歷史啦目前是這樣所以第一個你是說要看有沒有符合如果結合那營業額是在那裡倒到門檻當然他們就要送箭進來我們為什麼那你現在已經在準備這是第二個我們有準備這是第二個第二個對不對那第三個我覺得是更重要的不能夠損害到台灣的利益所以剛剛講的我剛剛為什麼提郭志輝這個郭志輝郭部長那個講話當然後來是失言可是他講的也是一部分的事實"},{"start":5067.659,"end":5092.834,"text":"你說我賺錢賺成這樣啊那你現在一直在賠錢我怎麼可能去呢這個我是覺得公平會一方面是依照你們這個規定來做這個事情之外你要注意到護國神山到底這樣會不會影響到我們台灣的這個經濟發展護國神山我們的一些先進的這個製程會不會被搬走更重要的喔我剛剛講的不只是對方賠錢喔Intel現在要我們去投資的是什麼川普要我們去投資什麼代工耶"},{"start":5094.759,"end":5103.864,"text":"為什麼台積電叫做我們的護國神山全世界最強的這個代工占全世界先進的這個製程九成以上你又要去幫對方一個那麼強的做代工"},{"start":5105.88,"end":5128.695,"text":"這對台灣的利益是非常博弈的所以到時候請在這個審查過程裡面也要注意到台灣的利益好不好所以我想在目前的審查的規定底下我們整體經濟利益的部分我們會充分來考慮相關的一些議題來 另外我再問你一個最近很重要的一個事情你今天報告啊第十月提到你們一個很重要的任務公平會就是要穩定物價避免人為的壟斷你們還要經營一個"},{"start":5133.571,"end":5157.78,"text":"維護一個公平競爭的環境現在我問你國外進口的這個鮮奶前幾天中華民國農農協會他們說出來抗議準備要上街了他們說國外進來的這個鮮奶船運沒有很少搭飛機來的嘛對不對都借船來的啊借船要幾天"},{"start":5159.175,"end":5178.435,"text":"大部分要30天嘛你不管紐西蘭美國進來都30天保存期限60天結果上面標的是什麼都是鮮奶這是不是一個不公平的競爭我們台灣的肉農這麼辛苦然後生產那麼好的這個鮮奶才應該可以標示台灣鮮奶對不對"},{"start":5180.295,"end":5207.725,"text":"結果美國、紐西蘭各國要來他也標了一個叫先來這是一個公平的競爭嗎?報告委員 這個比較是屬於商品標示的問題啦標示 可是標示完之後就是沒有當然如果說這種這不是違反你的所謂的公平競爭嗎?他如果說有這種標示要達到不實誤導消費者當然有可能會有不實廣告等等問題但是如果純粹就標示是不是先來這件事情來講這是商品標示他造成的結果就是一個不公平的競爭嘛這就是屬於你要管的這個範圍之一啊"},{"start":5209.656,"end":5232.883,"text":"我們會看具體的事實如果說事實真的有出現誤導消費者我們當然有可能是可以在不實廣告等等剛剛講的是事實嘛除非他搭飛機來搭船就是大部分都要30天啊對不對30天怎麼可能還是先來更重要更重要的這當然牽扯到定義行政院2月份已經開了會了"},{"start":5235.1,"end":5249.167,"text":"清楚的定義保存14天以內才叫鮮乳我想我剛剛跟國研報告就是說如果不屬廣告的問題的話我們也許有介入空間那其實我們跟這個相關的出管機關"},{"start":5250.086,"end":5276.448,"text":"有在做不實廣告的一個分配 責任分配像這個食品廣告是由衛福部來主要是是標示的問題嘛 可是我剛剛更清楚跟你講這個對我們國內的肉農就是非常不公平嘛然後講對我們消費者也不公平啊我要去買一個鮮奶給我的小孩喝或者是喝個鮮奶你給我標示是你的鮮奶一般的台灣民眾很多人也不曉得說國外進來的進口主要坐船坐30天啊"},{"start":5277.369,"end":5301.377,"text":"對不對它就形成第一個不公平的一個競爭的環境標示不應該這樣標嘛你剛講標示有問題嘛 對不對第二個它形成就是一個不公平甚至是欺騙這個社會大眾嘛漏農 國內的漏農受傷害我們的消費者也受傷害現在更重要 我現在跟你講因為台灣的漏農跟消費者抗議之下我們的行政院本來"},{"start":5302.694,"end":5330.922,"text":"在上個月已經清楚定義啦以後保存期限14天內才叫鮮乳嘛要不然你就是長效乳啊以後只有我們台灣的鮮奶可以在14天內的你就蓋一個上面就標示是台灣的鮮乳如果是國外的一百你30天借准的就不能再標示了是不是這樣我想委員會去不公平競爭是一個很廣的概念啦不公平競爭裡面就是我剛剛提到有可能會產生不實廣告那這個在部會的分工裡面衛福部會會優先來處理這個食品的不實廣告不只衛福部做嘛我就說這也是屬於你的範圍啊"},{"start":5332.779,"end":5356.746,"text":"他已經形成了不公平的競爭了嘛,對不對?要不然你那個公平競爭處裁掉囉,要裁掉嗎?剛剛委員報告,不是競爭是有很多類型啦,公平競爭是一個大的概念對啊,很清楚是一個,你用卡達夫想也知道這是不公平的競爭好,所以你做兩件事情,第一個你們應該去看經過行政院這樣二月份的這個定義之後,是不是很多進口的結算來"},{"start":5358.206,"end":5380.953,"text":"還上面是寫鮮乳這個應該就是要處理的啊這是一個啊第二個更重要的你們現在就是要在行政院開會的時候還包括你自己的職權以後這個不公平的這個環境一定要打破嘛這樣才能夠保障我們的消費者喝到真正的鮮奶啊是不是這樣第二個落容才公平啊好不好我給大家看一下這個多嚴重大家知道嗎我們看我們進口乳的這個成長左下角啊民國97年到現在短短15年97年的時候啊"},{"start":5388.496,"end":5405.408,"text":"到6000公噸 大家知道嗎到112年 千年啊已經多少 13萬7000多公噸了成長了23倍他本來市佔率在我們台灣進口主的這個在我們所有的這個牛奶啊 2%現在已經22了"},{"start":5408.717,"end":5429.194,"text":"那你怎麼可以放任 放任了22%的這個產品本身標示是有問題的 又對我們的消費者又造成這個不公平對我們的肉農也造成不公平另外我給大家看一下 你看我要特別請我的助理辦公室去你去這個 看一下 你看紐西蘭鮮乳100%日本進來全部都是寫100% 然後寫一個鮮乳"},{"start":5436.386,"end":5451.188,"text":"這是這幾天去拍的阿你二月份行政院已經做了這個決定了捏這是不只違反這個他違反了兩個嘛違反了我們的標示第二個違反了你們公平會應該去查的違反這個公平競爭嘛"},{"start":5452.418,"end":5471.279,"text":"我想委員關切這個標示的問題我覺得這個還是主管機關啦衛福部他們要就是他們的執掌範圍之內啦那不公平競爭如同剛剛跟委員報告的他他其實有他的個別要件類型也很多那就假設我剛談到不實廣告這一塊齁其實我們在部會之間的分工這個還是由衛福部先來處理啦"},{"start":5471.94,"end":5496.838,"text":"那當然如果說有一些案子是屬於比較灰色地帶的確有產生一些對消費者不公平的情況我們就會積極來思考是不是在公平法裡面會有可以來加以處理的一個問題所以我今天非常具體的要求來我看一下我要求你們做幾件事情第一個你要確保不同乳品之間的公平競爭環境這是你的業務啊對不對我剛剛講他顯然進口乳跟我們的本土的這個鮮奶競爭"},{"start":5499.509,"end":5527.005,"text":"環境是不公平的所以你要維持市場乳品的穩定的同時不要因為標示有問題產生的這個不公平的這個競爭你要進一步去保護肉農跟乳廠之間的合理的這個交易把這個秩序要弄清楚好不好這三個都是你的業務範圍當然主委主委你都要一直一直在推說最上游的就是這個衛福部嘛我剛剛已經跟你講了行政已經做了定義了當然這兩天我知道美國商會現在來抗議了"},{"start":5529.563,"end":5543.602,"text":"可是第一個行政院已經做了14天啊那時候已經做了這個定義你就第一個要貫徹先去查哪些你更進一步去查這幾天你等下下了質詢台你就可以叫你的同仁去看看現在市面上是什麼標示"},{"start":5545.486,"end":5565.263,"text":"第一我剛剛已經跟你講他量那麼大對我們已經產生衝擊了你要開胃趕快去處理這個問題還有我提的這三點趕快做好不好我會去研議你大概一萬面去做然後大概這個應該不用太久吧這兩個禮拜好不好先去查到底市面上現在標示是怎麼樣子兩個禮拜你們針對這個事情提出一個對策針對標示跟競爭的關係對對對對好不好一個兩個禮拜內給我一個很詳細的這個報告重點重點保障我們本國的肉農"},{"start":5573.53,"end":5600.293,"text":"他們那麼辛辛苦苦 他們不應該受到不公平的待遇第二個 也保護我們的所有的消費者不管台灣人 台灣民眾哪一個人我現在進了超商 到哪個地方我去買了這個鮮乳喝到的 確定是要鮮奶 好不好不能夠是喝到一個長效的奶水準正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正"},{"start":5612.068,"end":5614.935,"text":"謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委"},{"start":5624.762,"end":5647.172,"text":"鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說"},{"start":5648.573,"end":5675.159,"text":"海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇"},{"start":5677.899,"end":5688.503,"text":"我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個"},{"start":5694.549,"end":5706.195,"text":"載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定"},{"start":5708.649,"end":5726.34,"text":"我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是"},{"start":5732.638,"end":5750.66,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5754.825,"end":5764.856,"text":"那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分 因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛 客船然後漁船 漁樂漁船"},{"start":5766.918,"end":5786.838,"text":"這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好"},{"start":5788.246,"end":5810.878,"text":"我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡之舞1號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解"},{"start":5811.158,"end":5833.932,"text":"OK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在"},{"start":5835.453,"end":5859.746,"text":"會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘"},{"start":5862.167,"end":5888.699,"text":"詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要"},{"start":5889.139,"end":5889.699,"text":"所以OK"},{"start":5907.17,"end":5922.026,"text":"那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款"},{"start":5922.626,"end":5941.065,"text":"我看到你們當時有一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候"},{"start":5943.187,"end":5961.367,"text":"那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼"},{"start":5963.325,"end":5982.581,"text":"我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了"},{"start":5982.941,"end":6003.553,"text":"OK所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做"},{"start":6004.113,"end":6029.164,"text":"才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為這當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是"},{"start":6030.845,"end":6048.308,"text":"因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在這後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大"},{"start":6050.311,"end":6071.72,"text":"相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概僵硬九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是Uber Eats要併Foodpanda的時候"},{"start":6072.987,"end":6089.286,"text":"他們病完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年"},{"start":6091.966,"end":6111.815,"text":"全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先"},{"start":6113.576,"end":6127.854,"text":"事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商"},{"start":6128.675,"end":6147.678,"text":"跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國 包括歐盟包括印度 包括俄羅斯包括日本 包括南韓包括法國 加拿大 澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做"},{"start":6149.199,"end":6170.565,"text":"剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說"},{"start":6173.237,"end":6181.576,"text":"天然自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的"},{"start":6183.112,"end":6203.381,"text":"新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公評會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題"},{"start":6204.321,"end":6221.43,"text":"那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有"},{"start":6222.37,"end":6242.938,"text":"之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變就是我們這本來就是我們在"},{"start":6246.399,"end":6274.221,"text":"處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":6275.029,"end":6279.453,"text":"好 謝謝鄭正前委員那我們下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請主委來 請主委邀委員早"},{"start":6300.445,"end":6323.666,"text":"主任好 我們針對於不動產以廣告不實誤導消費者那公平會你們最近也針對於預證建設股份有限公司跟廣城廣告那麼開罰 原因是什麼呢他聲稱說8分鐘可以突破到高雄捷運紫縣預定地的P12站"},{"start":6325.627,"end":6354.511,"text":"預定的P12站以及15分鐘可以到高雄的這個紫縣預定P12站那經過的發現捷運目前還在審議中根本沒有公佈過預定的站點所以這些廣告聲明與事實不符那違反了公交法第21條的第一項規定所以你們開罰了那這個開罰也讓我們大家都可以更清楚的知道"},{"start":6355.251,"end":6359.834,"text":"不能造假所以本席要在這邊請教也就是這一類是屬於虛偽以及誤導的這個表示所以正式開放那本席要請教"},{"start":6371.281,"end":6390.171,"text":"周邊交通對於民眾他們在買屋買房以及他們的生活是非常非常的考量慎據這非常重要所以會導致有人會用這樣子的一個廣告以淨捷運站來做宣傳那麼本期要請教有了這個開罰你們是不是應該也要好好的去盤點"},{"start":6397.436,"end":6403.723,"text":"因為有開罰的事項絕對在隱藏方面還有會不會有什麼作為請教"},{"start":6405.543,"end":6431.946,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個進捷運站把這些還沒有政府還沒有確定公開的站長直接把他先擺在這根本還在審議中啊怎麼會有這個站呢這個案子不是第一案啦這個之前我們也處理過類似的 類似這樣的案子那不是第一案 那現在還持續這樣我們公平會有什麼作為我不希望我們民眾被騙 這是重點是是是 所以這些案子每次處理完以後我們都會對外發新聞稿然後提醒民眾要注意到這個問題"},{"start":6432.938,"end":6453.38,"text":"那當然在我們在查處上來講我們不管是網路的查處或是說個案的查處我們都積極會把這些案例類型類為是我們查處的重點所以在這些不動產的廣告裡面我們都會特別去關注這樣的問題好 會特別關注但是有1又有2又有3表示我們的方法還不夠精進方法要去調整你怎麼樣去宣導"},{"start":6454.321,"end":6480.986,"text":"本席認為非常重要如果你只有發了一個新聞稿當然有1又有2又有3民眾受騙的機率就會增加我們還有座談會跟各地實際上到各個縣市去做一些要精進方案接下來本席跟你討論的是全球氣候變遷那麼公品會你們在2月19號也發布了事業因應環境永續涉及聯合行為的參考指引你其中有三項"},{"start":6482.046,"end":6499.937,"text":"一項是為相互約束事業競爭者的這個活動那無聯合這個行為疑慮的這個情況第二個你是構成容易構成聯合行為若是事業認為對於環境永續他是有幫助的必須依法申請"},{"start":6500.737,"end":6526.858,"text":"對不對第三個是一過程違法聯合行為之情境希望透過這樣的指引讓廠商自我檢查是否合規這個非常好所以本席要跟你討論的是在這樣子的一個情況之下請教你們要如何的確保這個指引對企業他是有約束力的以避免形成壟斷跟限制競爭性請教主委這個"},{"start":6528.439,"end":6543.286,"text":"我們這個處理原則裡面基本上就如同剛剛委員報告這三點有點概念上有點綠燈黃燈跟紅燈但主要的目的其實就讓業者先知道如果他們要落實淨零排放那有些可能有時候會涉及到業者彼此之間必須要合作共同來做"},{"start":6543.726,"end":6567.189,"text":"那這個會不會抵觸到公平法的聯合行為所以我們提供這三個指標讓企業去評估讓他有所參考的指標但是本席要跟你討論的是之所以提出這一個論點也就是說這個議案因為這個是非常的重要企業界大家都努力配合政府在檢探但是有一些法規他還不是很清楚"},{"start":6567.649,"end":6584.798,"text":"甚至是他務必還要去做的必須要來申請的所以本席具體建議因為你在2月19號發布如果只有貼一個告示那很多的廠商他還不是很清楚所以本席是希望像這樣的一個情境跟上一題討論的議案一樣你們應該要廣為宣傳廣為宣傳"},{"start":6589.48,"end":6615.86,"text":"不管是在各工會或者是各管道要好好的去異業結盟去宣傳我們四月份會開始就會跟業界來宣導四月份開始你也把你預計要怎麼做你書面資料給本席好嗎我們希望好好去宣導要不然有些廠商看到這個指引不是很清楚也不知道該怎麼做協助廠商大家一起能夠讓我們的環境更永續這是我們討論這一點的最重要的一個指標"},{"start":6619.262,"end":6636.417,"text":"接下來本市要請教3月12號決議對網銀國際股份有限公司處以20萬的罰金因為網銀公司在取得威秀影城股份三分之一的股份後沒有依照規定"},{"start":6637.918,"end":6656.088,"text":"沒有依照規定結合前向公平會提出申報所以違了公交法的結合申報程序對不對你們罰了20萬元那這個事件也暴露了在整個併購的程序他遵循似乎"},{"start":6657.468,"end":6678.385,"text":"到底是不了解还是故意不申报我愿意相信民众不太会故意不申报因为这么大的指标公司还会导致这样的一个情况所以本期要跟主委来讨论的就是说你们到底针对于企业并购申报程序的宣导跟教育"},{"start":6679.065,"end":6706.61,"text":"到底是怎麼做華大威修這麼大的一個公司連網營他都沒有申報他是挑戰你是不是還是他根本不知道要申報請教請教那個我想這個案子主要是針對他應該來申報或未申報因為他那個結合案我們是通過的那只有兩個原因啊他故意不申報第二個他不知道要申報根據我們事實上有跟當事人詢問過這個問題啦那他們的表示是說這是疏忽啦"},{"start":6707.55,"end":6733.682,"text":"這是疏忽 這是他們的疏忽要怎麼樣確保企業能夠充分了解奔並軍巡守法相關的法規我想這也是政府的一個責任那所以對於沒有不知道要怎麼申報或者是疏忽或者是任何的一個理由我們還是要依法我們業務單位都持續有在做宣導這些結合的申報程序電子化以後該如何這個我們持續都有在做"},{"start":6734.722,"end":6745.067,"text":"您這樣的回答 您說你們都有持續在做那連這麼大名牌的公司都沒有給你申報那你預計要怎麼精進啊"},{"start":6746.823,"end":6776.503,"text":"我想這個案子你要怎麼精進你要多宣導還是要提高法源還是怎麼樣我想這個因為你們一直在一直有在宣導但是一直事件發生這個就是我們必須要怎麼去精進我們會繼續持續的思考看有沒有更有效的方法那剛剛委員談到宣導跟處罰這兩個我們大概都是並進但是宣導很重要因為畢竟這個企業的確有時候會忽略掉一些細節那這個我們業務單位都有持續在思考在如何做"},{"start":6776.963,"end":6793.105,"text":"主委你講到這個就重點本席要求你必須要透過任何的管道很多的工會很多的團體你們必須要去宣導因為連這個都做不來那你公告的法律是沒有用的"},{"start":6794.436,"end":6818.467,"text":"因為我們其實從去年開始有特別針對企業做了一個G2B一個宣導活動看企業需要什麼我們都會派人去跟他講公平法所以結合這一塊一定是重點我們都會跟相關的企業來一個重點企業需要什麼我們會派人企業不會告訴你請你主動去宣導好不好請你主動去宣導做水庫嘛水庫理論啊才能夠圍堵嘛"},{"start":6819.207,"end":6832.117,"text":"是嗎我們目的也就是希望第一個大家守法第二個民眾不要受騙民眾不要受騙這是你公交會非常重要的一個職責好嗎 加油好 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊委員那下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢"},{"start":6850.008,"end":6852.441,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳代理主委請主委"},{"start":6861.529,"end":6888.163,"text":"陳代理主委 本席想請教一下不時的廣告的查處算不算公平會的業務是一個重要的業務是一個重要的業務 那在近年來的話這不時廣告增加的趨勢是越來越多那我們看到這歷年來從2019年到2024年增加次數越來越多那我們公平會有什麼查處的工具跟方法你們做了哪些"},{"start":6889.296,"end":6904.086,"text":"工具很多特別是針對不動產案件的案子我們有網路上的查查實地的宣導跟業者公會座談那當然在其他的一些不實廣告的案件裡面我們也會主動的去了解特別是當假設媒體有披露都主動去了解"},{"start":6906.094,"end":6920.949,"text":"戴主委因為最近這個案件累計下來這294件裡面就有不動產部分你也提了不動產部分就有58件那你說你主動去查但是你有去開罰去處理的案件幾乎都是檢舉的"},{"start":6922.19,"end":6939.197,"text":"都是檢舉的那像不實的廣告他已經刊登在不管是大看板啊或者是在網路上宣傳啊你們只要有去查處都看得到但是沒有主動性都是受害者跟你們檢舉你們才去查處"},{"start":6940.458,"end":6968.517,"text":"就像有些的建商他說他這個房子是有可以挑高的有夾層的但是結果消費者進去之後的話才發現他這個夾層會被處罰會判為違建 違建人就要拆除掉甚至有些的工藝區的房子他也當作一般住宅在賣也會被拆掉這種情形買房子是如何的大事這他的所有的財產他的房子"},{"start":6970.886,"end":6995.964,"text":"結果呢 結果他房子被拆了 結果他沒地方給住了這個傷害是非常非常的大所以 代理主委 你們的查處就是這樣子而已嗎其實我們都很積極啦 因為像積極沒有主動啊 你有沒有一件主動的地方在哪裡你舉例說都是你要檢舉的嘛 受害者喔事實上針對不動產部分 我們有專門的一個team在做網路上的監控啦"},{"start":6996.404,"end":7021.896,"text":"就是會在網路上看各個建商推出的不實廣告如果有競爭不實廣告疑慮的所以你們看了都沒有覺得不實廣告所以你們沒有自動出擊的都是被動就像高雄的男子這個捷運的這個站點這現在政府才做可行性評估結果他也不實廣告啊8分鐘就可以到這個捷運站結果現在你們對查處這個案子你查處了多久你查處多久"},{"start":7026.963,"end":7042.112,"text":"人家檢舉去了 你還要查處 查處多久不用你們主動去看你不知道你查處多久這個我們再確認一下 我再確認一下那個時間點是 現在已經完售了 銷售7億你們罰多少60萬對 那我們公平交易法的21條 它是罰多少"},{"start":7051.482,"end":7079.981,"text":"最高從五萬到多少五萬到兩千五百萬兩千五百萬你的罰款的基準點在哪裡我們有一個判斷的標準判斷所以你認為他是實在的嗎輕微的廣告不死而已嗎你只罰他六十萬因為那個處罰還要看就是銷售額那我告訴你七億嘛 完售是那你們的比例原則有沒有拿出來因為有時候涉及到就是廣告期間他其實沒有賣出去啦我告訴你這一件完售了"},{"start":7081.127,"end":7098.986,"text":"我問你的是這一件 高雄男子的你針對這一題他在廣告期間 這個案子在廣告期間沒有銷售出去所以我問你嘛 現在已經完售了 而且你調查多久時間你調查都已經結束銷售了 你還要歐"},{"start":7101.158,"end":7112.098,"text":"所以公平委面對事實去做務實的查實尤其是陳主委 林美主委的時候她就說她會重罰來遏止這個歪風"},{"start":7115.083,"end":7129.674,"text":"你們沒有重罰7億的這個銷售額你們罰了60萬這是廣告商跟件商一起罰的60萬喔沒有分開來的喔結果你看不只這一件很多啊我們這幾年來的60件"},{"start":7132.563,"end":7148.565,"text":"所以工具給你們了規範給你們了法也給你們了如果說這法不夠讓你們修從2023年修到2025年兩年了還躺在行政院修不出來不夠積極就是你們公平和現代的態度"},{"start":7150.114,"end":7174.787,"text":"我想對於不用產這一塊我們會持續的積極的查出來持續積極 拿出成效出來你不要有人受害者來跟你檢舉的時候他逃不回來啊房子欸 有人一輩子才買一次房子欸就沒了 就被拆掉了所以公平交易法是保護民眾這保護你都做不到 那你就公平會員沒有用處啦"},{"start":7176.482,"end":7197.51,"text":"所以請你們再積極一下法也給你們了 工具也給你們了你們的主動不要再等受害者來檢舉了 好不好好 接下來我想請問一下還是不死廣告因為廣大的民眾還是被等於是 算是詐騙嗎因為不死廣告也算是被詐騙就是最近這個有一番賞"},{"start":7199.791,"end":7226.064,"text":"這個一番賞這個隨機的這個扭蛋來摸彩那但是他有說多大的獎品結果他沒有把大獎放進去那譬如說這個堂吉課的這個部分的話大概在5月8號到這個去年的5月8號到11號發扭蛋的這個活動啊堂吉課的也承讓缺失所以他也補償也退費了"},{"start":7227.825,"end":7251.406,"text":"但是公平會就沒有開罰為什麼不只是唐靖克的現在很多這樣的糾紛很多我想這個主要是因為這個案子因為我想我記得是當事人跟已經達成的那個和解就是他們可是他有沒有事實的不實廣告他有沒有事實他有做廣告這個廣告本身是他有事實嘛所以他在補償跟退費嘛你們為什麼沒有開罰"},{"start":7253.342,"end":7254.706,"text":"因為他這個活動的期間不長 很短活動時間不長 你就不能計算他金額了"},{"start":7260.681,"end":7266.663,"text":"怎麼可以說因為活動時間不長金額小因為這扭蛋的話丟進去硬幣就可以扭蛋啊因為金額小因為不長因為是隨機就不用開罰所以代理主委就是誤導的效果就比較短所以這個要計算處罰完的時候這個是我們會列入考慮的有這個行為就要處罰了你要去遏止他不然大家都投機了"},{"start":7288.493,"end":7314.058,"text":"對沒錯 客處是很重要很重要 所以你說時間短客處罰款必須要跟損害時間短這快閃就不用罰了就不用負責任了要符合比例嘛就是說他的誤導效果因為這個在法律上你還是你的罰款不能夠過高可是我們就給你工具二十一條五萬到兩千五百萬是我知道 但是那個級距你要踩緊它級距就叫你比例原則啊剛剛已經叫你比例原則的這個男子的情況這個"},{"start":7315.658,"end":7318.461,"text":"捷運點的問題啊 是不是那現在這個天數少 金額少就不用罰了那你就是姑息這種活動盡量辦 只要快閃就好了應該是說不是不用不罰 而是說因為它影響你事實就沒有罰啊對"},{"start":7331.836,"end":7359.517,"text":"所以告訴代理主委這個一番賞的這個扭蛋這種活動啊非常非常的多受害者非常的多那就像你講的幾天而已金額很小所以大家就彼此一謀算了就是姑息這種歪風不斷的這個來增加民眾的受害所以連主委都在姑息幾天而已啊過了就算了"},{"start":7360.551,"end":7387.778,"text":"我不是說過了就算啦你說幾天而已啊公平會的態度是非常重要的所以我們會持續經濟的但是處理法文所以我請公平會一定要介入調查好不好因為我們民眾沒有這調查的權利也只有你們可以調查如果你們的態度還是姑息養奸的話那我們民眾就一直都是損失額那我們會積極持續的關注這個跟詐騙有一樣喔你說要有大獎結果沒有大獎在裡面是不是"},{"start":7390.035,"end":7414.123,"text":"請公平會拿出你的態度跟你的權力來執法好不好是好謝謝呂委員那我們下一位請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請代理主委陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":7418.284,"end":7418.747,"text":"陳珠瑋你好"},{"start":7421.136,"end":7448.759,"text":"相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案"},{"start":7449.52,"end":7467.94,"text":"想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好 主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那"},{"start":7469.622,"end":7495.236,"text":"我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎"},{"start":7496.857,"end":7517.337,"text":"我們對台積電最近的一些投資作物我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設"},{"start":7518.438,"end":7543.278,"text":"這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是它是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第十條的結合呢"},{"start":7544.019,"end":7567.495,"text":"我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢 審視呢"},{"start":7568.956,"end":7594.055,"text":"如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是限制競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益"},{"start":7595.376,"end":7621.487,"text":"就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢"},{"start":7624.98,"end":7649.782,"text":"我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極、審慎地去面對他對外的投資那政府包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎地來處理本案"},{"start":7652.284,"end":7669.712,"text":"那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以是"},{"start":7670.192,"end":7682.021,"text":"我們會看會持續觀察看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息了你應該是有主動出擊的權利你也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事"},{"start":7690.848,"end":7707.384,"text":"等於是你在主動集結的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是 我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入 會有會審慎的考慮"},{"start":7710.367,"end":7736.574,"text":"包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題"},{"start":7738.815,"end":7766.03,"text":"有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊"},{"start":7769.557,"end":7798.283,"text":"應該上百億以上太客氣了 我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢"},{"start":7799.224,"end":7826.654,"text":"當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多"},{"start":7827.654,"end":7830.296,"text":"民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":7846.857,"end":7849.538,"text":"好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是"},{"start":7865.226,"end":7884.193,"text":"是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件"},{"start":7889.127,"end":7896.552,"text":"目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億"},{"start":7910.222,"end":7915.088,"text":"一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎"},{"start":7920.044,"end":7940.841,"text":"我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個"},{"start":7948.152,"end":7966.016,"text":"主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實的去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數"},{"start":7973.157,"end":7984.54,"text":"離不遺餘力 應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔 特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝張家俊委員那我們下一位請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":8006.511,"end":8018.214,"text":"請邱志維委員謝謝主席 請陳主委好 請陳代理主委"},{"start":8025.805,"end":8035.058,"text":"邱委員長 主委長 幾項問題請教主委就是上一期我們的預算審查我記得沒有錯的話大概整個公平會的預算我們是減列100萬在委員會審查的時候是凍結"},{"start":8037.847,"end":8055.486,"text":"各科目大概加總起來凍結430萬所以是全力支持公平會的這個相關的預算然後讓你們業務能夠順利去執行但是很可惜的啊很遺憾的在在院會有國民黨跟這個民主黨提案把你們業務費啊"},{"start":8056.451,"end":8062.616,"text":"解列三層 不是解列 要凍結三層業務費大概是4500左右三層大概就1500萬 對不對那你凍結業務費還要解凍這凍結三層對你業務推廣會不會造成影響"},{"start":8074.499,"end":8099.957,"text":"這個一定是有影響的只有在案件的查處上比如說同仁到外面去調查案子還有內部的召開相關的會議等等這個三減數當然會對業務推展會有影響是啊 又要馬兒跑又要不給馬兒吃草沒有這種道理啊要行政部門積極查處積極作為你又預算又給他檢列業務費是執行相關的公平會業務最重要的預算對不對"},{"start":8101.178,"end":8117.997,"text":"檢定三分之一耶 所以你們的工作能量三分之二當然 巧婦難為無米之炊你也難去做到大家的期待跟要求 因為你們預算不足委會是專業審查 我們各黨派都有"},{"start":8119.557,"end":8146.156,"text":"也經過好好的討論 也經過專業的評估 才會做成這樣預算的決議凍結430萬 那時候各科目是合理的凍結凍結 然後大部分是書面 對不對而且才減列100萬那很可惜在院會這種結果您也說了 這個會對你們業務推動造成影響影響最大的部分是哪一方面的業務"},{"start":8147.739,"end":8149.903,"text":"如果以三減數最高比例應該是國際業務三個60%"},{"start":8154.511,"end":8181.606,"text":"那這個部分的話就是影響到我們對國際間的互動還有一些對國際的承諾譬如說我們是APEC資料庫的建制單位我們是受APEC委託來建制這個國際的競爭法的資料庫您知道凍結你們的預算的這個提案這些提案的都不是經濟委員委員這些委員從來沒有在經濟委員會待過也從來沒有對貴會質詢過可以說讓說他對貴會的業務完全不了解就天外飛來一筆"},{"start":8183.004,"end":8188.267,"text":"隨他喜好 隨他的心情 大逼一揮就三層三層四層四層 五層五層國會墮落於此啊 莫以為勝啊又要要求你們這個什麼樣樣都要做得好 又不給你們預算不只在公平會 每一個部位都碰到這種問題哪一家業務員沒說好就把你們這個數了半天 把你們這個說了半天"},{"start":8211.158,"end":8235.531,"text":"然後問題是你沒有預算給他沒有預算給你 各部會他沒有辦法好好去執行所以我指的公務人員是一個國家運作穩定的力量那國家最不穩定的力量在立法院再進一步說國家最大的亂源之一在立法院"},{"start":8239.423,"end":8251.17,"text":"所以我們盡量在這個亂源之中保留一個我們的使命感我們的責任感讓這個亂流不至於失控所以真的是難為你們所以我這邊也不忍在你們業務上有更多的苛責因為預算被凍結到這種程度我請教幾個問題就是說"},{"start":8268.493,"end":8296.728,"text":"工評會這個主動立案跟民眾檢舉的案件啊這部分這個我希望能夠多一點主動查處就是說這個你們從統計年報來看你們主動調查的案件是主人遞檢那這部分呢大部分是很多你們立案的案件就是這個檢舉的案件占多多數所以為什麼會有這種狀況呢那個主委你們說明一下"},{"start":8298.376,"end":8313.007,"text":"我想我們基本上在主動調查部分還是非常積極啦主要是從媒體上或是從一些相關的訊息管道如果我們知道有一些違反公平法我們就會主動那主動案件的減少它背後的原因當然很多啦"},{"start":8313.687,"end":8332.548,"text":"那我覺得當然不排除我們會裡面可能未來要更精進這個訊息取得管道讓我們有更多的機會可以知道說可能的違法案件在哪裡那這一點我們會持續的你們人力的編制是多少人人力的編制人力大概200人總共總會大概200多人220人左右"},{"start":8337.203,"end":8360.013,"text":"這個大家都夠病就是說有不實廣告的狀況充斥在這個所有的這個平台或者媒體對不對所以你要不要特別去主動去查處不實廣告不實廣告你有時候從這個這個藥品啊或者是這個其他的產品啊或者是這個投資啊所以你們要有一個"},{"start":8361.073,"end":8382.76,"text":"分組針對不同的產品去做主動的查處特別是現在很多的不管是電台電視台或者是廣播或者是平面媒體或者是所謂的社群平台都有很多保健食品的廣告"},{"start":8384.178,"end":8403.313,"text":"而且啦 保健食品它的這個 占的篇幅還蠻長的 連每個廣告時段都有這時候他用這個 我也不知道是真是假啦他用這個專業的醫師來做推薦 他用名人來推薦 都是保健食品他說他聊一下多好 而且這個廣告的時間蠻長的"},{"start":8409.283,"end":8416.718,"text":"你看每天你去看这个电视台到底他们所这个贩售的所广告的这个保健食品"},{"start":8418.257,"end":8443.831,"text":"到底是曾市委有沒有誇大這裡面有沒有去調查因為剛剛委員特別關切這個保健食品還有他們通常誇稱療效這部分其實是衛福部我們在部會分工上來講是屬於衛福部要來主管那當然如果不落入這個衛福部主管的部分他也是不實廣告嘛對他是不實廣告但是因為衛福本身也可以管到關於食品衛生所以責任分工是這個不屬於你們的業務囉"},{"start":8444.411,"end":8459.072,"text":"就是比較涉及到專業 譬如說宣稱療效保健食品 宣稱可以治療癌症等等這些部分因為涉及到醫療專業所以在當初的分工上是由衛福部那衛福部如果那一種類型的不實廣告就是跟譬如說食品"},{"start":8459.713,"end":8487.157,"text":"那實際也有食藥署啊 食品也有他的專業啊因為衛福部本身也有查處不實廣告的權限啊那我疑惑是說你們查處不實廣告是針對哪一類型的這個不實廣告就是我們其實沒有設定說特別類型但是如果是主管機關他可以優先來處理的就由他們優先但這就變成是說全職劃分的這個模糊啦有時候衛福部說不實廣告是公平衛福部要去管的公平衛福部說你專業是應該衛福部要去管的"},{"start":8488.423,"end":8503.022,"text":"到最後沒有人管我們是一般的不實廣告啦就是衛福部如果認定說這其實很為一般的不實廣告就是譬如說衛福部認為說這個廣告其實沒有涉及到療效單純就是一般的不實的廣告誇大的廣告這會把案子移到我們這邊我們就會處理這樣的廣告"},{"start":8503.542,"end":8526.891,"text":"那剛剛委員垂詢的這個監測部分所以你就沒有辦法去主動啦主動的部分其實我們有做蠻多的特別是在不動產的環境所以我覺得各部位你要跟各部位去釐清啦特別是公共衛護部這種保健食品或者是這個有全身療效的部分你們分工要明確而且你們是要聯合去處理專業的部位他們來來定裁處的部分是你們去"},{"start":8527.651,"end":8548.288,"text":"你可以去主動去調查 主動去了解 調查之後 依請在衛護部表達意見衛護部認為說它的確有誇大療效 它實際上也超出不實廣告法那查處應該是由你們來裁罰才對啊因為依照衛護部它本身的法規規定 它知道發現這個誇大療效 其實它本身是有裁處的權利"},{"start":8549.81,"end":8572.351,"text":"就是只要是認定是衛護部他們的所謂誇大療效那你們有沒有採取的權利我們採取的權利就是剛剛跟委員報告一般的不實廣告就是說雖然他感覺要涉及到保健食品但是他沒有到那個誇稱療效你越講我越糊塗我越聽不清楚了我這邊我都有一點一知半解那你一般人怎麼去了解說你們到底插手是哪一部分是是"},{"start":8573.376,"end":8600.532,"text":"因為主要是看特別法跟公平法之間的關係有些特別法它本身就賦予主管機關一些查處不實廣告的權利那你們過去一年查處不實廣告有幾案63件 處罰的部分樣態能不能提供資料給我就是說你這三件是查處哪些不實廣告那廣告的內容是什麼 參與是什麼所以我們會後提供委員好 在會後提供 63件是不是那裁罰金是多少錢"},{"start":8603.929,"end":8632.188,"text":"沒關係啦 那會後再提供啦會後我把資料提供給你好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志偉委員那下一位請謝一鳳委員質詢那謝一鳳謝昭偉質詢後我們是不是休息10分鐘好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳代理主委"},{"start":8633.425,"end":8633.849,"text":"請陳代理主委"},{"start":8642.995,"end":8659.061,"text":"你看一下這是2013年到2023年台灣數位廣告跟電視廣告整體市場金額的比較你看到從過去以來就是說電視廣告比較高到數位廣告比較低到2023年數位廣告已經超過了電視廣告那這個數字"},{"start":8667.165,"end":8681.265,"text":"給主委了解 我相信你也非常清楚喔那對於數位平台上面有商家指定平台支付或者是物流的服務那這些部分"},{"start":8681.986,"end":8701.697,"text":"因為平台業者他有拒絕提供用戶數據給晉升者或第三方或者是利用演算法的或者是未揭露的順序排序這樣子的規則對於特定的商家降權或限制流量"},{"start":8704.658,"end":8724.908,"text":"這請問例如像是新興的就是跟演算法有規定或者是數位平台上面他們有特定次序的這個部分的時候那請問公平會你要怎麼樣子介入以及監管我想委員提到的這些數位平台上面濫用數據演算法來排除競爭這個在"},{"start":8727.13,"end":8749.595,"text":"我們的公平法架構底下我們事實上都是可以去監管的只是說在監管的時候我們有一些前提要這樣符合譬如說數位平台要有市場力量另外一個更重要的是說它本身是不是真的有這樣的行為如果它真的有自我偏好的行為而且這個自我偏好的行為是那對於演算法那個演算法也是一樣現在陪同你上來備詢的這位是服務競爭處的處長服務競爭處的處長對 他是負責數位平台"},{"start":8755.376,"end":8772.575,"text":"那它對於數位平台的演算法它是不是比較清楚我先簡單跟委員報告數位平台演算法主要在國際間關切的問題就是利用演算法來達成聯合定價業者同樣都用一套演算法所以我也知道你的價格你也知道我的價格你調價我也調價所以是主要關切那這個我們持續都有在關注對處長要不要"},{"start":8775.305,"end":8800.727,"text":"有沒有相關的補充因為對於演算法這個部分其實一般的就是說購買的業者或者是消費者他並不了解說演算法的這樣子的推播的這個他的次序或者是規則是如何的但是如果在於就是平台他怎麼樣子推播給這些消費者的"},{"start":8801.027,"end":8812.929,"text":"那會不會導致於引導消費者的偏好等等的那這樣子怎麼樣子我們公平會怎麼樣子介入委員是不是請處長跟委員稍微做一下報告"},{"start":8814.773,"end":8843.638,"text":"委員目前的演算法做一些推波主要是在目前看起來是比較是為了要增加消費者比較良好的一個體驗譬如說我們有時候有搜尋引擎譬如說我搜尋了運動用品列曾經有搜尋過那他可能會感受到說我對於運動用品比較有興趣那就推出一些相關的廣告那以前過往的媒體的廣告呢是一種平面媒體或是一般的廣告他是不知道特定的人"},{"start":8844.238,"end":8872.152,"text":"所以它是一個比較沒有辦法針對性那它現在這可以做分眾這是一種比較數位時代進步上的一個進步那至於說目前說有沒有競爭法的問題的話我們有是有在關注但目前在利害分析上我們認為說這部分可能是比較有益於消費者的部分但如果有限制競爭的問題的話當然我們也會注意以上那你們怎麼監管"},{"start":8873.696,"end":8874.562,"text":"我的問題是你們怎麼監管"},{"start":8876.411,"end":8901.511,"text":"我們當然除了自己主動會去了解譬如說這典型例子就是說業界或是市場上有傳出或者說國外之間有一些具體的案例我們就會去注意說國內是不是本身有這樣的問題那請問你們要跟什麼機關一同會同去如果涉及到比較數位技術的部分當然就跟產業主管機關我們會有密切的合作那是什麼數位部還是經濟部都可能數發部數發部經濟部都有經濟部對我是說這樣涉及到會不會是跨部會的"},{"start":8906.392,"end":8931.11,"text":"很多案子我们必须要尤其是在技术面的部分我们其实很需要速发部的一些专业上的见解就是在技术上面你们需要的是速发部但是在整个产业方面是不是应该要汇同经济部有时候产业上的一些数据一些事业的分布状况我们也是需要有一些主管机关来提供一些相关的数据做我们判断的基础好那现在就是根据"},{"start":8932.732,"end":8960.933,"text":"我們媒體報導的台積電他可能就是要入股了英特爾的這樣子的情況那還結合了輝達、超微還有博通等那未來他們如果入股了而且經營英特爾的這個晶片製造的合資企業我想根據我們之前台灣金聯的董事長施俊傑他說"},{"start":8961.914,"end":8981.38,"text":"他說無論是合作方式是投資入股或者是技術入股或者是由英特爾承接台積電在美國的先進封裝訂單都符合公平交易法的事業結合"},{"start":8984.609,"end":9011.294,"text":"這也會超過台積電與英特爾的年度銷售額接超過了公平會所規定的400億新台幣的門檻那代表了他們就必須要跟公平會申報那未來這一起在美國的這個結合案那你"},{"start":9012.95,"end":9023.492,"text":"還有我們的公平會會不會能夠勇敢的進行審查並且獨立的做出相關的判決"},{"start":9025.012,"end":9044.731,"text":"這個案子我們持續都密切在觀察發展那跟委員報告一下就是說我們審查的前提是他們合作的模式屬於我們結合的定義在公民法裡面第四條他有定義什麼叫結合那假設符合了那門檻也達到了不管是營業額很高我想這個營業額都很高所以符合當然就屬於我們可以審查他們就必須要來申報審查"},{"start":9045.932,"end":9068.939,"text":"那審查的過程當中我們就會依照他們合作的模式到底是競爭者還是上下有業者的模式我們會依照公平法既有的審查的一些架構來進行實體的審查那因為我們是獨立機關我們絕對是獨立依法對那對於相關的資料那我們有沒有管到跟美國就是說能夠有相關的資料的這樣子的"},{"start":9070.619,"end":9096.886,"text":"像上一次我們在台灣審查Uber Eats的時候你們就因為資料的拖延其實就已經就是說在收集的方面都沒有辦法及時的就是按照時程內跟委員會報告以及給所有的大眾了解但現在如果這一起案件那的資料相關都在美國"},{"start":9097.466,"end":9109.703,"text":"那我們有沒有辦法能夠及時的取得及時的做出相關合理的這樣子的判決以及給予所有民眾一個公開的資訊呢"},{"start":9111.341,"end":9129.476,"text":"資料取得特別是涉及到外國的公司或跨國公司這個當然一直都是一個問題不過依法我們是可以要求提供資料的所以我們也會積極的要求業者必須要盡快配合我們的時程來提供相關的資料那同樣的邏輯跟規定我們也會適用在台積電的身上我們也會盡量的"},{"start":9130.157,"end":9159.138,"text":"要求他來符合我們審查的事項所以他必須要跟你申報是吧對 只要是審查我們要求他補件原則上他們都要配合所以他要跟你申報而且他要就是說要提供相關的這個資料給你是不是那你也會獨立的做出判決是不是那希望你們可以在就是說法定的期間內獨立的做出判決給予民眾了解好嗎所以我們依法來審查這個案子如果這個案子進來的話"},{"start":9159.898,"end":9161.14,"text":"好好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝義鳳委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9495.974,"end":9496.585,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9773.643,"end":9797.262,"text":"好 現在繼續開會那下一位請鄭天才委員質詢主席有請主委來 有請主委"},{"start":9805.288,"end":9832.002,"text":"政務委員長好 陳主委好你在公平會也很多年了今年第五年第五年了 對所以這個非常了解所以應該怎麼樣去積極的上次在這個宴會這個被提名人來做這個詢問的時候我也特別提到"},{"start":9833.473,"end":9837.055,"text":"台灣為以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家這個議題這張是2023年11月天下雜誌的一個報導2023 現在已經2025了這張照片我在這邊也引用了很多次好 那最新的"},{"start":9862.527,"end":9868.992,"text":"詐騙國家危機全國遭詐500億事實上是502億這個是2025 2月17號聯合報的一個新聞從這個報導上就可以發現如果我們從這個近5年詐欺案件案件數跟財損"},{"start":9885.983,"end":9894.046,"text":"來做這樣的一個看的話從2020年一直往上到2024年去年502.5億詐騙詐欺的案件財損逐年增加以去年三大詐騙的手法這個假投資4萬3015件"},{"start":9913.486,"end":9941.451,"text":"遭詐騙的金額372.2億假投資算不算你們公平會的主管的業務目前假投資如果是純粹是要涉及騙錢、詐騙財務的話因為它本身是一個刑事的詐騙行為所以我們會以給檢調單位來進行候選我是說就它是不是屬於公平教育法裡面的"},{"start":9944.223,"end":9964.265,"text":"詐欺 詐訴 或者說公平教育法這裡面有這個事業亦不得為其他族裔影響教育自息之期望或顯示公平之行為是不是屬於這個 假投資是不是屬於這個"},{"start":9966.297,"end":9994.034,"text":"不一定因為25條他必須要足以影響教育秩序那這一條的實行基本上主要還是會從他對市場競爭的影響來角度那我想我知道委員關切的是消費者被詐騙這個消保的關切部分那這個部分所以有可能是其他消保會的或者是其他的部會的業務是也有可能是你們的業務嗎"},{"start":9994.724,"end":10021.87,"text":"要看案件的形態事實所以這個部分其實要去做分析這樣的話才可以去針對現行的法律法規有沒有需要去檢討修正的之處假網路拍賣呢這是有沒有屬於你們的業務還是大部分屬於你們的業務"},{"start":10023.075,"end":10047.862,"text":"假的網路拍賣一樣如果沒有涉及到商品或財貨的交換單純就是一個吸金或是基本上大部分都有那如果涉及到網路拍賣拍賣啊那當然商品啊有些就是拍賣但是其實錢拿了以後東西都沒有給所以如果這種情況的話純粹就是詐騙的行為那會比較是屬於形式上的一個案件的問題任何案件"},{"start":10050.407,"end":10078.302,"text":"都會都有可能涉及到刑事啦既然是假的當然都會涉及到刑事我現在那是最後端的就所謂的試詐嘛怎麼樣去試詐讓人民試詐到底是誰的業務你們也有嘛我們有參與這個行政院的那個分隊這個試詐最重要嘛你試詐的話才能夠避免被詐騙"},{"start":10080.185,"end":10104.95,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常非常嚴重的非常非常嚴重對台灣人民而言真的是非常這個金額之大然後量之多你看這個假網路拍賣各時百千萬 上萬一百件26.2億所以這金額都很大"},{"start":10107.219,"end":10134.006,"text":"所以日常教育已成詐騙的文傳這個我也在這邊引用了很多次尤其是網路的部分所以這個剛才提到了這個公平教育法公平教育法已經從上一次修正到現在已經七年多了沒有修正從上一次修正到現在七年多了都沒有修正所以以"},{"start":10136.311,"end":10158.508,"text":"以這六年多來講將近已經七年了七年那時空改變那個完全不一樣了完全不一樣所以這個修法是確實有它的必要性我在這邊也提了好幾次上師在"},{"start":10160.434,"end":10172.018,"text":"立法院院會詢問的時候我也特別建議你要做修法這個公平教育法106到6月14號到現在7年多這個裡面預告了是2023年6月6號預告這個建議我以前也是老公務員"},{"start":10189.025,"end":10214.373,"text":"我當過常務副主委我都會親自去拜訪跟這個政務委員說明說明這個他的急迫性、需要性要去說明然後找一點安排何況2023到現在政務委員都換了你們負責的政務委員是哪一位"},{"start":10215.915,"end":10241.209,"text":"呃 劉委員 劉靜卿劉靜卿委員所以新的嗎對那對嘛更要去說明的跟委員報告我們有跟劉委員開過會了就是跟隨這個修法的草案在去年我們開過會那這個有關修法的整個草案目前是在行政院啦我們後續會持續的積極的跟行政院這邊來來聯絡協商還有溝通儘快能夠把這個報告要積極的是是是我以前當副主委的時候"},{"start":10244.043,"end":10271.26,"text":"這個林王毅我都溝通說明過後來都以行政宴會就這樣說出去了是包括之前的吳哲成政務委員工程會的主任委員是為了原住民族土地及海域法我也去說明說明之後他開了三天三夜去審查所以要做積極的去說明而且"},{"start":10272.438,"end":10299.594,"text":"而且因為從2023到6月6號預告到現在2024一年多了可能還有新的不是可能一定嘛應該有新的因為經過去年一整年的一個這麼大的一個差距那個詐騙的金額所以還可以新增"},{"start":10301.044,"end":10320.284,"text":"新增新的要修正 既然還在行政院所以這個部分請主委尤其是我們公民會的同仁要積極的謝謝委員的提點我們會積極跟行政院這邊來持續溝通就我們的版本看有什麼問題我們後續 委員建議我們會納入參考謝謝"},{"start":10323.959,"end":10346.034,"text":"加油 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員那下一位請陳昌明委員質詢主席首先有請我們公平會我們的陳志偉好 請陳志偉委員長主委長"},{"start":10353.82,"end":10379.035,"text":"這個問題我希望你好好慎重的回答我今天一大早看到我們執政黨的委員說把他刪了預算刪了預算讓你們之外來行那我首先請教執委你們今年的預算多少總共的編列大概3億多3億多少包含人事費3億6千萬"},{"start":10381.684,"end":10389.37,"text":"那比往年增加了1588萬那你們統算是526萬在我們經濟委員隊裡面很好才3-100萬如果這個加起來才626萬所以你們還增加了926萬那以增加的比例是5%以3-的比例是2.6%"},{"start":10409.025,"end":10435.436,"text":"我本來大美難來了一直在炒這個預算我相信我們所有委員都一清二楚整個立法院的運作到底算了多少他一直在這樣說一直在這樣我不曉得48年來已經順風順水 紅紅紅紅的習慣了在預算增加說有很多事情困難做阿滋味阿滋味阿"},{"start":10436.713,"end":10457.511,"text":"會不會是外來選 好好回答喔你答對你就送主委 答不對就很難送主委還是我替你回答 比較安全我跟委員報告一下啦 就是其實我想說實話 說實話 誠實 充分的答案這個預算的部分 我想凍結的部分對我們業務影響會比較大因為凍結430萬 不要用凍結來講理由幾乎都給你們過 幾乎都沒有凍過"},{"start":10463.459,"end":10477.289,"text":"都跟你們解凍 幾十年是這樣 你也要再去表達他的立場不可以拿黑白為案 拿來亂施打我相信大家做立法局都一清二楚那我講 你剛剛的回答 剛剛的報告很好"},{"start":10481.192,"end":10499,"text":"我想推薦你來當執委你如果講之外來選的時候這樣變成一個詐騙集團如果你講雖然有增加但是通貨膨脹我要艱苦辛苦的去做我全力以赴完成給你當執委要感謝我"},{"start":10500.04,"end":10518.977,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下那個增加的部分其實大部分是人事費我瞭解那業務費的部分的確動錢的部分如果沒辦法即時減薪資金可以調整嘛主要是在文獻啦大家不要說到那裡了大家都知道是怎麼做好另外說你們之外來一層在南部服務中心"},{"start":10520.848,"end":10540.237,"text":"有兩個公平委員會派在那一邊的王子惠你還要做人你剝奪我們南部委員那麼強有力的服務精神像賴瑞榮委員 像我們蔡依委員你去帝國用錢給他做一個那種自來的營你要給這些委員有服務的機會啊"},{"start":10542.233,"end":10554.935,"text":"我也了解公民教育委會去到那裡也是要來動用改觀動用是在跑腿那些都是政治囚擁我夢了三十幾年從行政院的服務中心出來我們看了一窮二尺"},{"start":10556.181,"end":10580.398,"text":"所以這個該刪的就刪嘛不要去得罪了南部那個執政黨的立委每一個人服務的效率那麼高你剝奪他們去為你好好思考我講的問題真正的內涵哪個先真正酬勇我們南部的立委都很強給他們服務一下一個人一個地方都會來找我們的立委服務得供南部服務中心在公平委員會服務"},{"start":10581.699,"end":10607.816,"text":"我實在不敢相信聽我的話你很難回答你不敢得罪他們好不好所以啊你也不要講三點一算那這次公平委員會你又講了現在只剩下五位兩位被刷掉我先講兩位即使你美職委很好他很務實很樸實的公務人員但是比較難溝通那剛剛聽你在講"},{"start":10610.517,"end":10638.491,"text":"為了前年案你有講話不語言這個很好我希望你永遠保持痴心人為公平委員是獨立的單位這個要做起來在美國是很大的單位是反脫勒斯的單位大家碰到你們就怕了但是裡面有一個深層政府拍在這邊的一個委員高通案也是他高通案從應該要賠償他改為和解"},{"start":10640.32,"end":10656.451,"text":"碰到美國我們都沒有膝蓋了我們是跪著講什麼都好包括現在的台積電過去那邊也好還有前年的合併案只為不講話大家以為冒險你講話所以你能沉到仙山"},{"start":10657.574,"end":10675.223,"text":"那公平委員會一定要保持你很公智之心很公平之心來替台灣的民眾來做服務我看你長相應該能做得到講該講的話做你該做的事情你有沒有信心還是到時候為了官位都要搖來搖去擺來擺去了"},{"start":10679.335,"end":10692.876,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵跟提醒我向來的初衷就是公平會就是獨立機關公平會執法的標準就是公平交易法還有相關的政策但是怎麼有一些奇怪別人講話還好你有講話留下來我就欣賞這一點"},{"start":10694.198,"end":10708.865,"text":"不要說把台灣的利益全部犧牲掉沒有人說一個賠償案轉歇蓋不去改為投資案對台灣有多幫忙你看美國他要的就是你全部的我們是講好聽的話對台灣你曉得他們的金幣賣得多高什麼樣台灣有沒有比較便宜沒有現在逼著"},{"start":10719.83,"end":10733.294,"text":"那個台積電這樣免稅台灣的電子業在台灣做的有沒有免關稅你把本都整個移到外面核心的機師都移到外面我看這個富國純三也沒有什麼將來學會了"},{"start":10736.533,"end":10761.435,"text":"人家說台海一戰中美國擁有世界晶片最偉大的力量澳門算得好幾,辛辛苦苦台灣人幾十人的心血,這樣研發出來的東西讓人語氣有趣啊!起碼你也給我洗一洗,我再給你弄一弄講一些調教,沒有?有條件,乖乖的"},{"start":10762.681,"end":10789.066,"text":"奉送給人家那這裡面當然剛剛有很多委員談到英帖的事情這國際的結合要不要經過你們這一關如果符合結合定義也超過平台結合定義做這個案你會不會像高通這樣的案件一樣啊你果然是我的阿公啊我什麼都好我們還是以個案的事實我們說將來個案的事實來做一個審查我看你沒有那種氣魄擔當啊"},{"start":10791.305,"end":10794.489,"text":"我講真的,你不會為了台灣的利益啊此外你準備不要做了這種你看到所有世界上美國講一句話"},{"start":10808.669,"end":10821.83,"text":"我執行到這個地方本來只需要給我多一點時間因為我講了一些對執政黨比較有所檢討的事情我不多講好好做保持初心"},{"start":10823.011,"end":10847.85,"text":"還有壟斷物價 你曉得 物價是隨時在跳動的現在通膨在這個國際貿易戰中美的各種戰爭邊緣政治是我們要特別注意的問題不是把臺灣的農民壓得死死的就掉下去萬一下颱風發大雨 缺貨是自然的給他漲一下賺一點又有什麼關係為什麼要叫農民受苦 這個觀念要改好不好是 謝謝 謝偉"},{"start":10851.38,"end":10857.108,"text":"好謝謝陳超明委員來我們下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢好謝主席請陳代理主委請陳代理主委"},{"start":10876.786,"end":10882.235,"text":"我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":10884.297,"end":10907.123,"text":"過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的不是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美"},{"start":10907.523,"end":10928.73,"text":"他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止"},{"start":10929.409,"end":10954.933,"text":"我想委員知道在委員會議裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的公司的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒"},{"start":10955.313,"end":10972.723,"text":"就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛"},{"start":10973.443,"end":11001.164,"text":"當然尊重委員的發言的權益 當然會提醒他注意但是沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛 對不對那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話 那還叫委員會制嗎就是失去委員會制所以將來竹委你會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的"},{"start":11002.256,"end":11028.942,"text":"因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦然後沒提醒所有的"},{"start":11029.602,"end":11047.921,"text":"提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他"},{"start":11048.919,"end":11059.052,"text":"好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委然後代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行"},{"start":11067.622,"end":11088.869,"text":"我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還有時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該"},{"start":11090.689,"end":11115.815,"text":"大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對"},{"start":11117.375,"end":11134.028,"text":"就是在業務單位再派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":11135.134,"end":11164.689,"text":"我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就"},{"start":11165.249,"end":11188.695,"text":"瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作"},{"start":11189.615,"end":11209.028,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟英特爾這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如它併購或者是它的這個英特爾的這個晶圓代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查"},{"start":11210.109,"end":11225.794,"text":"第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的"},{"start":11227.761,"end":11255.603,"text":"結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型那合資也算合資在柏油的情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平用來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過啊都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平用來做審查嘛"},{"start":11256.624,"end":11271.607,"text":"好 那公民會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公民會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦"},{"start":11272.108,"end":11293.898,"text":"那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查好那接下來我想講一些時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查"},{"start":11294.738,"end":11320.801,"text":"因為委員投影片上所提的這個拍 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 因為你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎"},{"start":11321.121,"end":11343.428,"text":"如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依送檢調這部分刑事那再來今天剛剛大概提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎?他也涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對 事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子"},{"start":11344.068,"end":11368.877,"text":"那雖然最後是沒有罰款但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者他是有可能在我們的我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長"},{"start":11369.497,"end":11398.071,"text":"最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個潛力在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":11400.708,"end":11423.077,"text":"好謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員不在那我們是不是麻煩張家俊委員代理我們請蔡易餘委員"},{"start":11430.613,"end":11450.458,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請陳代理主委請代理主委蔡榮聰主委好那我早上基本上每一位委員在質詢的時候我就在聽"},{"start":11451.892,"end":11472.289,"text":"那事實上我剛剛有聽到前兩位委員陳超明委員他在質詢的最後他講了有講到我心坎裡去就是說基本上公平會穩定物價是你們的一個工作所以我們要避免聯合操弄然後去干擾物價但是呢你們也要"},{"start":11474.36,"end":11500.558,"text":"避免有人去哄抬物價然後或者是說去打壓所謂農民的一個收入這件事都是你們要去做的嘛對不對就物價的聯合當然是跨部會之間的事情那本會有本會的執掌主要是這個聯合哄抬價格聯合囤積啊對不起聯合固定這個市場就有聯合行為嘛或者是有囤積嘛這樣的事情就是你們公平會要管聯合行為的部分好"},{"start":11501.078,"end":11520.443,"text":"所以重點就來了剛剛就講了說事實上以農民來說他的收入基本上是一個很不穩定的收入尤其遇到災害的時候他的災害的時候數量減少數量減少價格自然會高起來所以這個是基本上人家講的過去一句話叫做古建商農這個成語事實上就是有它的一個道理我們看到了說現在說香蕉的價錢因為去年"},{"start":11530.065,"end":11553.905,"text":"鳳梯尤其有一個叫做納陀河颱風這個鳳梯遭到殖民不得了影響的範圍主要大家的金錢全部都掃掉了掃掉了的結果是怎樣當然現在沒有香蕉沒有數量沒有數量市場機制無量介紹的企業所以現在介紹比較高但是我們卻看到了國民黨的首席書記長竟然說這個現在的香蕉價格比較高"},{"start":11558.909,"end":11562.874,"text":"有人問他說這個是遇到詐騙嗎他的臉書就這樣講說這樣是詐騙我想要請教我們主委針對現在江郊的狀況有特定的供應商來進行聯合壟斷嗎"},{"start":11575.43,"end":11594.16,"text":"根據目前調查 現在目前是沒有聯合行為的問題 那有突擊的狀況嗎目前我們的了解也沒有 主要是颱風的因素導致這個供應量大幅減少 所以你們掌握就是數量減少 數量減少自然它的市場機制 那我們也看到現在很多交農都跳出來說 因為"},{"start":11595.761,"end":11610.911,"text":"等於收容就等於他們現在賺到的他們要賺錢所以大概下一批要到明年今年度的夏天新的香蕉出來可能價格才會趨於穩定我覺得這種市場機制我們要去尊重而且農民在香蕉介紹賣的時候"},{"start":11613.393,"end":11624.871,"text":"香蕉價格差的時候有人要跳出來協助他們嗎?也沒辦法也要當市場機制把價格再拉回來所以這個有好多的一個狀況我們真的很不希望說一塊就讓農民價格比較好"},{"start":11628.936,"end":11633.358,"text":"就記得有人要出來打壓打壓這些香蕉農這個我們不希望看到所以你們在執行你們公民交易在執行這個聯合壟斷的時候基本上你們也要去注意到怎樣的話物價的一個平穩但是農民的收入不能被傷害這樣好不好"},{"start":11646.769,"end":11651.214,"text":"所以我們會持續關注這個問題好那接下來事實上也是剛剛很多委員都有在問就是台積電現在他可能會跟其他的企業包括英特爾包括輝達他們可能要去合資然後會去吃下英特爾的一個部分的一個廠房"},{"start":11669.98,"end":11679.251,"text":"那我想請教我們副主委像台積電這一種公司這麼強已經強到它已經引領全世界"},{"start":11680.812,"end":11700.44,"text":"他的先進製程達到先進封裝差不多全世界要對他走因為全世界要對他走所有的三頁幾乎都是以台積電馬所是瞻我想請教副主委我們過去公平會有遇過台灣曾經有這樣的企業可以達到像台積電這樣的一個巔峰嗎"},{"start":11704.085,"end":11722.062,"text":"我覺得我個人的印象所及是沒有像台積電所以這是第一次嘛第一次台灣有這樣的企業達到你看引領整個世界所以我要跟副主委講的是說事實上從你剛剛說的如果台積電要有這樣的一個這個叫做合併"},{"start":11722.922,"end":11750.623,"text":"合併的一個行為的話你們會有你們的審查但是你們要審查的時候你們要注意喔我為大家提醒的就是說你們除了要考慮的是過去都說聯合行為或者合併的行為考慮的是台灣的市場我覺得現在不能這樣想你要考慮的是國際市場以及台積電在整個國際佈局的時候怎樣對它的佈局是可以讓這一個企業更加壯大"},{"start":11751.764,"end":11774.797,"text":"跟委員報告我們審查這基本上都會是我們考慮的因素那特別是在科技業啦那個市場通常在一些案子當中我們會把它擴到全球的角度來看對但是第一個是全球的角度嘛第二個就是說你要知道因為台積電它就是這個技術它技術無法被取代既然它無法被取代的情況之下它跟你們傳統在說啊我多少是戰略是獨佔寡佔"},{"start":11776.178,"end":11796.084,"text":"我覺得這已經超越了所謂獨佔寡占因為他現在就是要跨級全世界而且對我們台灣是一個最具有攻擊性的一個企業像這種企業公平會在審查的時候必須要有更多元的一個考量我想委員現在提到的就是在科技業裡面我們都必須要更進一步去了解一下科技業創新的動能"},{"start":11796.804,"end":11810.002,"text":"跟結合之間的關係所以這部分我們會審慎去了解所以這一個我覺得很重要所以社會部隊你們要多用心在這一塊最後我再問一個就是說關於現在歐盟"},{"start":11812.213,"end":11827.476,"text":"要推出的這個所謂數位市場法那這個數位市場法當然是針對現在的一個數位科技那數位科技因為掌握在少數的幾家跨國性的大型企業比方說像Meta 像Google 像Line"},{"start":11828.677,"end":11847.782,"text":"像這樣他們都擁有壓倒性大家使用的一個習慣那因為這樣的一個使用習慣就變成了這些平台他們可能在一些廣告的行為或者是一些他們在使用在投射用大數據然後來投放廣告或者是會有詐騙的一個狀況"},{"start":11849.542,"end":11865.516,"text":"基本上歐盟有注意到這些狀況那我們台灣未來要怎麼去因應這些企業然後他們的一些不作為我覺得應該說不作為去影響到人民的生活"},{"start":11866.523,"end":11885.776,"text":"我們在2022年的時候有發表了社會政策白皮書那白皮書裡面其實有把本會對於數位平台的執法立場有蠻詳細的說明那基本上目前我們還是會依照那個白皮書的立場就簡單來講就是說我們會優化我們本身在數位平台執法的能量我們會提升同仁對數位平台的了解那另外就是說其實大部分"},{"start":11886.756,"end":11914.5,"text":"數位平台的一件競爭的問題在目前公平法我們過去的分析架構底下其實我們都可以處理我們要的是讓大同仁還有執法的同仁能夠多一點對數位的了解所以目前我想除了對數位的了解之外以及他們企業跟企業之間的競爭是否公平之外我覺得最主要就是說講白了啦現在的詐騙集團就是都在用這些數位工具來變成他們行使他們詐騙的武器"},{"start":11915.181,"end":11918.134,"text":"那這一些平台最主要就是不作為"},{"start":11919.642,"end":11947.354,"text":"不作為 他一直放任著有人一直在那邊投放一些奇奇怪怪的訊息比方說這個投資理財啊然後請他們去加入LINE 加入LINE後再去告訴他們說我要投資哪些股票現在新聞層出不窮啊都是這種狀況 結果看起來問題就來自於這一些平台明明有人大量在投放這樣的一些一些錯假訊息也好一些屬於詐騙的一個訊息也好不會受到處罰"},{"start":11949.417,"end":11975.592,"text":"因為這些詐騙的行為基本上本身有高度的刑事不法的特色因為我剛剛有聽到說你們涉及到刑事司法你們就拉法務部處理那我現在要問一件事情如果已經判刑確定整個司法程序走完確定這個案件你就是利用我不要講任何一個平台哪一個平台來做你詐騙的手段有判決確定的案例是不是要針對這些平台開法而且一案一法"},{"start":11976.82,"end":12002.85,"text":"因為我們在法律上就是刑事優先原則當然啦 我說刑事走完啦我指的是刑事判決確定了走回到了頭 我們公平會已經判決確定了 換我要出手了你這些平台 你們不作為已經讓於這一些犯罪集團把你們當作犯罪工具因為就我了解 刑事法法的要求是刑事如果制裁以後原則上不能夠再有其他的刑法的處罰"},{"start":12004.537,"end":12030.952,"text":"行政法那不一樣喔不一樣喔刑事法是罰犯罪者就是詐騙人我現在指的是你對於平台的不作為所以這是兩件事好不好再思考一下針對已經判決確定的案件公平會應該有所作為這樣才能讓這些平台去正視說為什麼詐騙集團都要用他們的網路上的優勢來投放這一些詐騙訊息"},{"start":12053.117,"end":12061.242,"text":"我們下一位請盧明才委員 盧明才委員不在王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在請翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":12074.74,"end":12099.515,"text":"謝謝趙偉 首先請陳主委好 請主委委員早陳主委好我想您大概知道我們在這個會期立法院有一個很重要的法案將要推動就是媒體溢價法"},{"start":12100.578,"end":12127.927,"text":"您知道我們這個會期的重要的法案嗎是我知道 我了解您對於媒體溢價法的看法是如何這個議題其實在幾年前就開始我們持續有在關注跟研析是 所以從公平會的角度呢委員如果了解公平會的角度的話我們原則上我們是鼓勵協商鼓勵平台業者跟媒體業者來協商那協商的過程當中如果遇到平台業者有刻意的杯葛"},{"start":12128.607,"end":12150.937,"text":"那我們會提供競爭法上的一個分析跟協助那當然如果協商的過程當中有涉及到數位平台業者有涉及到公平法一些不法的行為我們本來公平法就可以處理您認為說從我們現在國家的國力來講我們有這個條件跟美國來協商嗎跟美國或者這些重大重要的"},{"start":12152.737,"end":12166.008,"text":"社群平台或是在網路上面的這些影音平台我們有這個能力可以跟他們去進行協商嗎進行合理的協商我想公平會我覺得我不太適合去說談有沒有這個能力但是我們會確保那個協商的管道的存在事實上本席還蠻質疑公平會的角色你們有沒有做過就是在台灣目前的"},{"start":12182.114,"end":12192.057,"text":"社群網路平台的這個市佔比例各個不同的這個網路社群平台包括影音平台那現在在台灣的前三名是哪幾個如果以影音平台來講的話是我們前三名的話一個是Facebook然後您說的是如果是影音平台再過來可能就是"},{"start":12204.639,"end":12228.073,"text":"IG跟LINE這樣子這是社群平台如果是影音平台呢影音平台的話就是YouTube是第一的那這是其他的都是比較弱比較弱的好我們知道其實其他國家歐盟美國那麼等等這些國家他們對於像是臉書FBGoogle"},{"start":12231.385,"end":12235.708,"text":"YT等等他們都認為有壟斷市場的問題所以像近期歐盟就重罰了FB特別在分類廣告的部分重罰了他274億"},{"start":12248.616,"end":12277.339,"text":"那么Google其实在之前也曾经被美国的司法部招判就是说他滥用市场的地位有垄断之前然后所以要求他拆分那俄罗斯他在去年也是对这个YTGoogle旗下的这个YT服务认为说还有滥用市场主导的地位也予以处罚请问龚平慧在这些议题上面你们的角色是什么你们的看法是什么"},{"start":12278.207,"end":12302.093,"text":"委員剛剛提到幾個案例有些我們處理過譬如說Google要求預載在電腦平台裡面預載一些他們的軟體那我們經過深入的調查跟研析雖然最後調查的結果跟國外不見得一致但是那個過程我們的確有對數位平台市場做了深入的了解那另外一個問題就是跟委員回答一下就是說數位平台當然都很大而且很可能都已經達到獨佔但是從公平法的執法我們看的是行為"},{"start":12302.853,"end":12317.643,"text":"就是說我們調查的重點會是在於說你有沒有去把這個市場力量轉換為你濫用把用什麼行為來排除所以你們認為到現在為止臉書跟Google在我們台灣沒有濫用它的市場沒有因為它的這個市場地位"},{"start":12318.976,"end":12343.95,"text":"有濫用市場地位有一些不法的我們看到國外的判決我們看到國外的處分我們都會去掌握然後我們會把這樣的東西轉換成國內我們事實上做過市場調查我們去問業者說像國外發生這些行為在台灣有沒有存在那事實上我們收回來的問卷基本上其實大部分都說這個在台灣還不是一個問題我想要講的就是這個google啊臉書"},{"start":12345.956,"end":12361.157,"text":"YT然後乃至於應該這樣分啦就社群平台跟影音平台其實在台灣哪一個業者他市場力量大這眾所皆知而且我相信你們的報告很清楚YT一定是在整個的影音平台的"},{"start":12362.198,"end":12390.13,"text":"這個比例是最高的那其次也許才談到什麼TikTok或是小紅書啦等等之類那麼可是呢我在這些年我沒有看到公平會有很積極的作為當其他國家陸陸續續都判斷都是認定這些業者在他們的國家的市場上已經有這個壟斷或獨佔的這樣的一個情況可是呢我們卻沒有積極的要求"},{"start":12391.71,"end":12412.181,"text":"或是对于民众的一些表达的一些不满的意见来进行处理我希望公平会是不是可以在两个礼拜之内可以把你们做的言行报告提供给本席一份然后把台湾的现行的所有的网络社群平台里面各个业者的市占比"},{"start":12413.141,"end":12427.909,"text":"還有就是影音平台我覺得就兩個區分一個網路社群平台包含LINE等等然後另外一個就是影音平台在現在台灣的市占比是多少然後以及你們對於他們有沒有這個已經構成了公平法裡面這個有主導市場的這樣的一個地位請你們提分也許報告給本席參考是沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":12441.834,"end":12469.423,"text":"好謝謝王小林委員那下一位請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在好請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那我們弄一下投影片有請主委謝謝"},{"start":12480.129,"end":12495.355,"text":"主委吳安辛苦了有一個時事題但是其實也是您的主管業務棒球最近很夯我想時間有限我們就不再多說而這個夯其實就帶動了周邊商品的商機我想您一定可以理解我們來看下一張"},{"start":12496.175,"end":12517.609,"text":"在這一次WBC資格賽的商品販售的部分呢引發了很多的討論發生了什麼事情呢今年的2月4號負責這一次WBC資格賽商品販售的單位發了這一張預購宣傳把所有球員跟教練我再次強調所有球員跟教練都列入了商品清單大家很開心好下一張"},{"start":12518.61,"end":12545.971,"text":"結果呢2月4號剛剛發了那個預購宣傳單到了2月5號中職聯盟的副秘書長到了2月6號的球員工會都質疑這個授權有問題他們質疑這個廠商應該沒有取得合法的授權好到下一張結果這個廠商的賬號自己竟然很囂張的說好喔這個廠商說的他說好喔我們還沒有因為未被授權而告過希望這不會是第一次救命"},{"start":12547.557,"end":12557.119,"text":"主委你的嘴巴都皺起來了對不對你一定想說你看了什麼對不對這中間有沒有可能涉及廣告不實的問題我覺得這會是公評會的業務對不對好 我們來往下看"},{"start":12559.053,"end":12586.223,"text":"到底WBC資格賽商品販售有沒有可能涉及廣告不實我繼續跟主委您報告到了2月19號這家業者又出了另外一個全新的公告剛時間點是2月4號2月5號2月6號到2月19日中間一定發生一些事情這個業者就說因為參賽名單調整有部分人員的商品沒有辦法販售但是我們發現這個調整沒有辦法販售的部分這裡面還包含了教練團"},{"start":12587.443,"end":12602.424,"text":"而教練團理應說不會受到參賽名單的調整而受到影響好 下一張所以當時就有一個球評還發表了相關的言論他評價這個事件那他問說你們是不是沒有取得授權就掀開預購"},{"start":12603.826,"end":12620.392,"text":"那我想這也是這一次所有球迷而且所有熱情支持台灣隊的球迷所擔心的事情那目前為止我們非常清楚球迷並沒有公權力去查證這件事情但是我相信公平會應該有相關的公權力對於我剛剛說的廣告不實的部分做一些調查我這邊下一張"},{"start":12622.93,"end":12641.973,"text":"好我們查了廣告不實的相關樣態有這麼多表第五個項目五表示或表證委稱他人技術合作或授權者我這樣的解讀是不是正確主委委員所講的是對的因為如果你沒有得到合法產生的授權你對外廣告卻說這是要銷售你取得授權這當然就是屬於不實廣告一個類型"},{"start":12642.654,"end":12663.062,"text":"就委員提到這個案子我們事後會去調查事後好太好了下一張很開心這麼快速聽到主委的認同所以我這邊要求很清楚就是第一個我想請公平會就這個案子進行查查釐清是否涉及廣告不實的問題我這邊的期限本來是約是壓兩個月內提供相關調查進度跟延伤狀況不知道時間上是不是允許兩個月內我們會盡快"},{"start":12667.509,"end":12693.481,"text":"是不是因為我們需要時間因為相關的當事人還有一些事件是那主委您覺得就工作時間上我們我們彼此抓一個時間好不好四個月可以好四個月沒問題好四個月我們不是我們希望不是看到只是延益啟動而是已經有一些行為了好嗎好有些動作好那接下來我要談建議運動文化賽事周邊商品多有獨家授權的特性而這其中可能衍生實際上會取得授權卻公開販售的樣態"},{"start":12696.522,"end":12708.821,"text":"那考量相關商品販售的單一壟斷特質我要拜託你們跟教育部跟文化部進行相關爭議的因應討論因為這件事情絕對不會只是個案後續一定還會有其他的事情這個部分公平會有辦法承擔相關的跨部會的溝通嗎"},{"start":12713.39,"end":12737.156,"text":"委員是說要跟教育部文化部來進行請他們根據一些實際現場的案例跟你們進行相關的討論後續可能再衍生其他的問題這個可以啊這個我們可以來召集這些部會來進行那一樣壓四個月嗎一樣四個月好謝謝主委那我們這兩個事情就這麼往下發展好不好我們辦公室也會積極來關心拜託主委了謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":12743.128,"end":12771.409,"text":"謝謝裴育委員下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員不在請葉元之葉元之委員葉元之委員不在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在請林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在好根據發言委員除不在場者之外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束書面質詢和未及答覆部分"},{"start":12772.59,"end":12780.353,"text":"請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會好 本日議程處理完畢 謝謝大家 現在上會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}