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淨零減碳等多重挑戰"},{"start":2115.726,"end":2133.755,"text":"國科會要做台灣科技的後盾,破壞前瞻科技藍圖,協助產官學員齊力維護我國科技領先優勢,促成科技研發落地應用,並推動各產業的創新發展,緊究未來施政重點,說明如後。"},{"start":2135.563,"end":2149.232,"text":"首先破壞大南方新矽谷AI助力百業升級第12次全國科技會議在去年12月圓滿落幕產官學院近1500人次參與會議討論未來4年將藉由半導體優勢與跨國跨業跨域合作並強化無人機衛星機器人等關鍵技術我們將協助"},{"start":2167.203,"end":2189.415,"text":"並強我們將協助各產業導入AI協助中小企業創新轉型也將均衡區域發展推動近鄰生活轉型後續將跨部會合作落實國家科學技術發展計畫以科技力帶動國家社會的全面進步"},{"start":2191.741,"end":2208.879,"text":"為導照台灣成為人工智慧之島,國科會提出的大南方新矽谷推動方案,涵蓋技術研發、系統整合與應用文化培育等任務,協助各類產業實現智慧創新轉型以提升競爭力。"},{"start":2210.717,"end":2239.713,"text":"未來將串聯南部半導體南帶構建以AI為核心的產業生態系落實AI產業化產業AI化同時佈局AI智慧應用綠能及資安等前瞻技術通過平衡南北支援提升台灣的創新能量與國際影響力同時以國家整體角度組成晶片台灣隊"},{"start":2241.997,"end":2256.155,"text":"連結台灣半導體優勢與本土產業創新需求進一步對接國際市場行銷全球以AI加晶片的雙驅動力帶動百工百業成長"},{"start":2257.307,"end":2278.907,"text":"此外人工智慧基本法草案行政院審查已告一段落預計本會期送大院審議另基於AI應用及管理需要本法案由數位發展部接續辦理第二"},{"start":2280.305,"end":2298.728,"text":"力挺基礎研究深化国际科研互惠交流基础研究是科技突破及产业创新的泉源国科会积极支持学研基础研究鼓励研究的原创性并推动前瞻学术研究"},{"start":2301.137,"end":2315.162,"text":"鏈結國際頂尖社群展現推動臺灣科技發展的堅定決心此外為厚植我國前瞻科技科研能量持續孕育高階跨域多元人才庫"},{"start":2316.55,"end":2339.353,"text":"我们推出优秀博士生奖学金,提升研究主持费,吸引外籍高阶人才来台等多项人才措施,同时推广科普教育透过创新多元科普平台及活动,鼓励年轻世代参与科学,并以分龄分种方式推广优质科普。"},{"start":2340.894,"end":2360.82,"text":"邁入第十年的科普環島列車透過車廂中的實驗活動認識科學新知去年的活動共培育超過二萬名未來小小科學家國科會製播的科普影片實習生的筆記本更榮獲金鐘獎最佳自然科學計時節目獎"},{"start":2363.188,"end":2392.32,"text":"在国际合作方面持续与民主国际伙伴进行科技交流合作于世界舞台发挥台湾科技的实质影响力迄今已累计与43国及3个国际组织签署135项合作协定等文件例如去年秋季我分别造访了德国及美国进行实质交流建立科研合作机制"},{"start":2393.414,"end":2418.199,"text":"並且與矽谷科技界討論AI等產業議題成果豐碩11月台化科技合作協議交過下兩國密切交流互動熱絡分別於台北與巴黎舉辦國際研討會並頒發台化科技獎表彰兩國頂尖學者科研合作的成果第三"},{"start":2419.603,"end":2448.153,"text":"過足新創雨林推動生態園區落實均衡台灣為發掘具潛力的研發成果並協助其商業化將集結各季專校院具特色專長的團隊針對產業共通需求跨域應用開發解決方案協助企業導入AI技術實現智慧雨林產業創生的理念在拓展園區方面"},{"start":2449.5,"end":2473.935,"text":"配合發展政府規劃的六大區域產業及生活圈未來新設園區將以永續生態環境、在地共好共榮、韌性經濟基盤等三大主軸推動下下世代生態科學園區並透過中央地方產業與學界共同搭建實驗區域的治理平台"},{"start":2475.035,"end":2502.89,"text":"與交通教育醫療文化生態等面向攜手合作完善園區周邊生活機能實現均衡台灣的目標國科會前瞻規劃科技佈局支持學研界深化基礎研究並培育科技產業所需的高階跨域人才致力推動科研長期發展落實均衡韌性"},{"start":2504.301,"end":2527.514,"text":"健康的願景以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位身體健康順心如意謝謝謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那我們現在介紹在場的委員柯志恩委員羅廷偉羅廷偉委員"},{"start":2531.843,"end":2555.05,"text":"那我們今天呢這個每位出席委員的質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘那列席委員的質詢時間就是5分鐘那發言登記截止的時間是上午的10點半那我們今天的這個委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分以前提出並於本會委員范雲委員質詢結束後"},{"start":2556.71,"end":2567.374,"text":"及進行處理處理提案的時候若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理那我們首先請發言登記第一位羅廷偉委員質詢謝謝趙偉有請主委有請主委"},{"start":2586.335,"end":2612.915,"text":"羅委員好好謝謝主委想先在質詢之前先跟您請問一下之前你還記得你有辦一個活動叫小小科學家嗎有覺得怎麼樣還不錯吧很成功是您辦在哪邊您之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下請"},{"start":2614.995,"end":2638.18,"text":"科博館是教育部的才藝我知道但是畢竟跟科學有關係我們願意跟教育部合作可以跟教育部合作嗎那來到台中一起移師讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中是 我們樂意辦理"},{"start":2639.901,"end":2650.773,"text":"那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動了"},{"start":2652.008,"end":2673.14,"text":"那主委我想說但是時事我們還是要再討論一下啦就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分主委上次有看到一個新聞你有說丟臉對不對這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的啦當然我要先講我感受到的是愛之深則知切這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎"},{"start":2674.601,"end":2697.809,"text":"謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任位有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國"},{"start":2699.485,"end":2713.473,"text":"包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎"},{"start":2714.554,"end":2738.905,"text":"我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡"},{"start":2741.363,"end":2767.696,"text":"我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長"},{"start":2768.596,"end":2787.212,"text":"要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發"},{"start":2788.433,"end":2812.98,"text":"都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情"},{"start":2813.24,"end":2829.432,"text":"那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足"},{"start":2829.992,"end":2845.787,"text":"以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢"},{"start":2846.347,"end":2875.177,"text":"這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深責之切不為過都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解先知我們未來庸才找先知謀未來庸才找理由"},{"start":2875.737,"end":2901.076,"text":"那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎"},{"start":2901.926,"end":2929.747,"text":"我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些從學界來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的這個時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量"},{"start":2931.341,"end":2949.359,"text":"對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果"},{"start":2950.4,"end":2970.235,"text":"論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻"},{"start":2973.127,"end":3001.626,"text":"為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革"},{"start":3003.167,"end":3020.034,"text":"您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎"},{"start":3021.454,"end":3043.82,"text":"記者好那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎"},{"start":3045.27,"end":3071.492,"text":"我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業"},{"start":3073.353,"end":3094.642,"text":"如果是具體這樣子的話 那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案是 我們現在在行政院也有一個機制 政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始 我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算"},{"start":3096.403,"end":3115.308,"text":"我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期"},{"start":3119.369,"end":3148.488,"text":"我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需"},{"start":3151.03,"end":3163.496,"text":"我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。"},{"start":3169.819,"end":3195.026,"text":"當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔 主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求"},{"start":3195.566,"end":3216.422,"text":"我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道"},{"start":3217.813,"end":3241.656,"text":"在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子的評斷可以嗎"},{"start":3242.116,"end":3271.225,"text":"是 是 這個是其中一個很重要的因素沒有錯想法內需同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變協助我們的廠商全球布局這樣好 我希望能夠再多做一些評估啦台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向我們希望你能夠多加研究最後我想講台灣市場規模有限半導體的需求主要來自全球市場而非本地消費端我們並不像美國 中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場"},{"start":3272.465,"end":3294.013,"text":"內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝"},{"start":3299.354,"end":3318.743,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在呢請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好謝謝謝謝柯之恩委員沒有的話我們議事錄就確定那我們接著繼續進行質詢請柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委我們是不是請主委"},{"start":3327.706,"end":3328.309,"text":"有請主委備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":3332.021,"end":3347.648,"text":"各位好 您該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這點我完全同意因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙台積電過去了我們後面的後端的"},{"start":3360.274,"end":3364.939,"text":"我們後端的這個封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對 那個柯委員 我跟你講台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的這個實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去 是不是"},{"start":3382.057,"end":3409.026,"text":"风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案"},{"start":3410.086,"end":3411.369,"text":"三千億 這點沒有錯吧這個是在"},{"start":3415.83,"end":3420.594,"text":"上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是"},{"start":3443.331,"end":3469.105,"text":"好 那重点就是了 你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划 计划管考 指引方向这很奇怪啊 你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室 到底是为什么都已经先成立了 其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室"},{"start":3470.455,"end":3491.278,"text":"而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者啊专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎"},{"start":3492.259,"end":3508.015,"text":"主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們是給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的這個知己要領我做的國科會拿了十"},{"start":3515.562,"end":3534.617,"text":"四年的计划补助我当然知道这个钱多少你却是在这个过程当中研究人力的费用竟然花了八千万我问不到这里面的细想八千万一年的经费是八千万更何况你是五月在已经先成立完之后五月才成立这个办公室请问可不可以交代一下这个办公室到底在做什么"},{"start":3535.546,"end":3554.069,"text":"一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧"},{"start":3555.677,"end":3571.304,"text":"就我所知 去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算 他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室"},{"start":3572.945,"end":3599.991,"text":"主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份"},{"start":3600.851,"end":3613.083,"text":"我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目"},{"start":3624.994,"end":3644.855,"text":"好 你信箱可以不用給 但是每一個人領多少錢 這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉 我要不到 所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢 好不好你們現在每次什麼 每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密 這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦"},{"start":3645.976,"end":3660.563,"text":"好 我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣 好不好"},{"start":3661.499,"end":3681.611,"text":"主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立"},{"start":3682.864,"end":3700.32,"text":"我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會"},{"start":3702.222,"end":3707.69,"text":"我們的文化文明的提升等等要有我同意啊我今天坐在台下裡面講我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說"},{"start":3717.725,"end":3732.379,"text":"如果說你要當PAPER當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵特別是國科會的獎勵有很多的PAPER你們國科會要的連續型計畫大家都給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨很多人為了要符合這個標準然後就開始"},{"start":3733.2,"end":3740.746,"text":"不是好好的去鑽研深化他的研究完全是配合淺層的指標我們都同意這一點所以我贊成你剛剛的說法但是我還是要回應過來因為諾貝爾的關係你要看看我們過去28年開始我們其實已經花了多少錢大概投資了超過3000億以上來對我們這個研究包括我們每個人都經歷過的卓越計畫、頂尖計畫、深耕計畫投入非常多的錢但是很顯然"},{"start":3762.242,"end":3791.329,"text":"为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好的深化的所以呢台大的陈文章这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛"},{"start":3791.869,"end":3807.461,"text":"但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛"},{"start":3808.325,"end":3821.09,"text":"我們科技預算的編列在基礎研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟過去的比重來去看還是沒有算是逐年增加我給你看一下比重你說像目前為止五年成長45%你希望能夠讓大學無後顧之憂但是我們來看一下科研的比率來說基礎研究2023年大概是佔26但是你跟2014年過去10年比起來過去的科研的比率還是佔31%"},{"start":3836.516,"end":3859.09,"text":"你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8"},{"start":3864.833,"end":3879.722,"text":"你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大"},{"start":3880.342,"end":3899.802,"text":"所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是數據在這個地方我還是請我們要看人均每個人但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面"},{"start":3904.326,"end":3925.329,"text":"的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失你再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024 IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的"},{"start":3925.689,"end":3940.085,"text":"然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右"},{"start":3940.606,"end":3958.681,"text":"我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授"},{"start":3959.281,"end":3982.212,"text":"很勉强都要到一百万年薪一百万都有点辛苦那你随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出两百多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊"},{"start":3983.506,"end":4003.962,"text":"國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制"},{"start":4006.824,"end":4032.573,"text":"公教分離啊之類的那些我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候是要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很"},{"start":4032.793,"end":4053.798,"text":"不願意到我們這個地方這是我們整體的部分當這個人才不夠的時候我們未來的產業發展也勢必受到非常大的一個影響我們台灣最重要的就是我們人才庫如果我們這點沒有辦法做到的話其實這對台灣來說未來競爭力來說那才是最大的一個損失導演 我們會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝柯志恩委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":4057.5,"end":4074.912,"text":"好那我們接著繼續進行質詢請林沛翔委員質詢謝謝主席有請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝"},{"start":4078.871,"end":4099.466,"text":"林委員好書偉在你第四頁的報告裡面提到所謂的大南方新矽谷推動方案可是以本席目前查到的資料來看的時候在我們台灣南部的科技園區目前所謂這個真正進駐率是48%比較起說已經成功的新竹科技園區已經高達92%進駐率"},{"start":4101.247,"end":4114.634,"text":"我想請問一下主委說到目前為止針對這個不管是大南方新矽谷的推動方案也好還是目前這個南科的整個進駐率也好請問目前有沒有什麼激勵方案或是激勵的政策"},{"start":4116.034,"end":4139.054,"text":"我們所有的科學園區從北到南其實政策都一樣就是搭配我們進駐園區的這些廠商我們所有的機制都一樣但是南部如果委員講的是科技園區科技園區是屬於經濟部所管轄的但是如果是科學園區我們的進駐率現在幾乎都飽和了"},{"start":4140.415,"end":4156.123,"text":"幾乎都滿了因為本席在這邊知道一個狀況就是說現在全世界在搶這些所謂的明星產業到科學園區去進駐那比較尷尬的就是說我知道的狀況是新加坡目前有一個"},{"start":4157.023,"end":4180.726,"text":"一個算是稅富優惠他們那個明星企業到新加坡他們可以享受高達25%的稅富優惠那請問主委您會認為說如果我們就要跟他們競爭的話我們是不是應該提高我們的那個稅富優惠到30%才能比較容易的去把這些明星企業像是AMD也好NVIDIA也好把它拉過來呢"},{"start":4182.509,"end":4197.429,"text":"我對於國外企業到台灣來投資這個事情我想各種的優惠措施各個國家其實都在競爭當中那台灣其實我們最重要的競爭力其實是我們有非常好的供應鏈"},{"start":4198.71,"end":4227.281,"text":"基礎的這個包含傳統產業基礎的這些產業我們對於協助科技產業其實幫助非常大所以我們在科學園區裡面其實也有非常多的這個國際級的公司進來包含像美光那委員提到了這個AMD跟這個NVIDIA他們倒不見得會進到科學園區因為他們進到台灣來其實從事的這個業務呢主要還是在於"},{"start":4228.101,"end":4244.199,"text":"做這個他們自己公司本身的這個供應鏈的連結以及應用上面所以不見得會進到我們的科學園區好 朱瑞我現在接下來要提到你剛剛講到工研院也剛剛柯志恩委員在上"},{"start":4244.779,"end":4259.264,"text":"上一場質詢的時候提到人才的問題那嚴格講起來就是說我看到第46頁你就這邊有研究獎勵嘛獎勵特殊優秀人才跟獎勵科研人才這些都對我以前在大學任教現在在大學任教來講其實都是好事"},{"start":4259.844,"end":4276.725,"text":"但是我們最近也常常聽到一個觀念叫做算力及競爭力及國力也就是說我們如果在未來的這個AI的21世界裡面我們的算力要是沒有比其他我們一個城市的算力沒有比其他的強的話我們在競爭力上面就比較精彩就比較辛苦"},{"start":4277.125,"end":4303.647,"text":"所以說如何把我們現在已經訓練出來的這些AI博士這些AI的這些專業人才讓他留在台灣那會變成是很重要的一塊那我想請問主委有沒有考慮過因為目前我得到的資料裡面只有台積電跟聯發科有所謂去正式去聘用這些所謂的Quantum Physics PhD也就是所謂的量子物理學的博士目前他們就這兩家公司有去請到"},{"start":4304.648,"end":4326.654,"text":"有沒有想過說在這邊透過國科會跟業界直接合作去製造一個所謂的量子的工程師不管是量子物理學工程師還是其他的量子方面的工程師因為量子物理學的整個研究領域是很廣的有沒有考慮說由國科會跟這個企業直接去合作去開這樣的job listing"},{"start":4328.299,"end":4347.585,"text":"國會現在在量子我們現在講量子科技是從傳統的量子力學它是理論演變過來那現在進到這個科技領域我們現在有兩個方向在發展一個方向就是希望也能夠跟世界比較先進的國家一樣"},{"start":4348.385,"end":4373.666,"text":"能夠發展將來量子運算的一些設備那現在正在努力當中所以我們的量子國家隊裡面包含這個國科會的資助的這個學界以及中央研究院大概分成這兩部分中央研究院現在正在努力在建置量子運算的這個設備已經達到目前的成果已經達到五個我們叫量子位元的這樣的這個運算的這個基礎"},{"start":4376.389,"end":4377.093,"text":"那在國會這邊我們有這個"},{"start":4380.615,"end":4408.2,"text":"量子國家隊的這個成員包含學界的所有的各學校的這個教授他們研究的是比較基礎的包含量子的委員提到的量子物理理論的這個研究還有材料的研究不好意思其實我了解說我們官方目前獨立有在做這方面的事情為什麼我會特地說能不能開始想說跟這個業界做一定程度的collaboration做一定程度的合作因為據我所知道"},{"start":4408.88,"end":4422.026,"text":"我們每培養出來不知道現在這個是只有100個我們去年只有培養出來100個AI博士還是我們培養出來每100個AI博士留在台灣的只有35個也就是35%的人留在台灣其他65%的人都被外國或外國企業給吸引走那這個其實對我們台灣的人才來講是很傷的"},{"start":4430.289,"end":4445.836,"text":"剛剛不只是柯智恩委員講到說人才是我們台灣最寶貴的資產而如果我們真的要發展所謂的算力那我們的AI博士好不容易辛苦訓練出來的人才就這樣被外國拉走的時候我會認為說這是很可惜的"},{"start":4446.576,"end":4461.296,"text":"我們老實講我聽過一個企業家講過一句話出理不出的道理他說這個人才留不下來一錢給的不夠二心受委屈了那對於韓國來講他們當然有如果我就以韓國來講因為我們畢竟來講我們最大的科技競爭對手應該是韓國"},{"start":4463.438,"end":4487.714,"text":"韓國他們對於他們的AI工程師或他們的AI博士他們第一時間提出就是免服兵役的優惠第二時間他們就提出很高的高額獎金不管是業界也好還是工理業也好他們提出很高額的獎金把他們留下來那我想請問說我們主委有沒有考慮跟各部會來去做這樣的合作來把我們的AI博士把我們的AI的人才留在台灣優先呢"},{"start":4488.733,"end":4516.209,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個建議我覺得這個建議很好就是說我們的這個AI的人才特別是能夠念到博士學位其實現在是很少啦很多人念了這個碩士學位以後他選擇是到國外去發展因為創新的這個地方才有這個AI人才發揮的這個餘地嘛我們當然很幸運的我們主席也是也是AI博士啦非常寶貴的人才但是我們需要更多的這個AI的人才"},{"start":4518.17,"end":4533.479,"text":"他能夠把台灣當作是一個創新的一個基地能夠做各種各樣的新的包含模型的這個發展 應用特別是在應用的領域協助各行各業能夠做很多創新應用系統的這個開發把這個台灣變成AI之島我很期待是這個樣子"},{"start":4540.103,"end":4567.138,"text":"分享一下 我覺得因為我在國外也很長一段時間那基本上每個在台灣外地上班外地留學的學生學生都會想回來台灣工作當然還是那句話錢給的不夠心受委屈了可是這一點來講的話我就會建請說我們國科委真的好好考慮跟業界來合作是不是能夠撞到說我們剛開始這段質詢剛才講的量子工程師或各方面的東西讓我們流外的人才願意早點回來幫我們國家服務"},{"start":4569.159,"end":4585.767,"text":"不好意思那還有另外一個議題要討論就是說因為我是基隆來的委員所以對於海洋科研方面我會比較注重那其實海洋科研來講我們台灣四面四海我們秩序是個海洋國家雖然我有我們的"},{"start":4586.147,"end":4598.304,"text":"法規上面還是所謂的大陸法規這八路法則就是比較以內陸為主的但是既然我們是海洋國家的話我就想請教主委說在我們的海洋科學研究裡面我們的總經費大概多少"},{"start":4608.229,"end":4618.894,"text":"總經費為什麼這樣講的原因是說因為海洋科學研究其實很重要尤其是各方面的AI在進步當中的時候那我也是同樣的不是像"},{"start":4619.494,"end":4639.142,"text":"自詡為海洋國家在海洋科技研究上面會再種資本的不是只有台灣日本 韓國 新加坡也都是我們的合作夥伴也是競爭對手那等於我們是不是我們跟他們經費不要說錢一樣多就是比例上面是不是跟他們相似還是比他們高還是比他們低呢"},{"start":4641.107,"end":4662.57,"text":"報告委員這一點的確是我們現在努力的方向有關這個海洋科技的研究我們現在其實已經啟動一個規劃的工作就是希望能夠把我們的海洋中心能夠擴大剛剛委員提到就是說在我們的東北角海岸在東岸"},{"start":4663.47,"end":4690.672,"text":"我們要投入這個研究的這個能量的確是現在我們規劃當中是未來要擴充的那期待就是我們現在開始要編列明年115年的這個預算的時候我們能夠在現在已經在規劃當中能夠把這一項納進來擴充我們的海洋中心也能夠延伸到不是只有照顧我們的西南海岸而已能夠延伸到東岸東北"},{"start":4691.853,"end":4717.259,"text":"蠻重要的是就是說我個人認為美國氣象跟大氣總署的NOAA美國海洋跟大氣總署他們其實現在已經在用AI來去做所謂漁群在漁業上面的監控跟漁群上面的偵測同樣的技術老實講AI這個技術既然有了應該不管包括大數據還是包括深度學習應該都不困難"},{"start":4718.079,"end":4735.872,"text":"我是從基隆來的 我們基隆的漁業算是蠻重要的一環有沒有特地去用這種AI跟大數據跟深度學習的AI這種組合型的工具或模組來去追蹤或者是去預測未來漁群的移動呢"},{"start":4739.135,"end":4763.369,"text":"這一種研究就是有關這個漁業漁群的這種利用AI的研究我們的確是鼓勵很多的這個教授現在有沒有這個計畫應該有 現在應該有如果沒有的話我想請國科會老實講基隆是海洋重鎮那對於這個海洋科技研究上面來講我們不敢講說經費一定要比別人多但是應該要有一個合理的配置我們現在自然處有一個指揮海洋經濟"},{"start":4764.149,"end":4778.916,"text":"如果可以的話 建請主委在這邊多關注一點尤其是有關漁群這方面如果美國已經在做對於他們的漁業的監控是用AI的話那我覺得我們中華民國也是有同樣的能力去做到同樣程度的探索沒問題 謝謝委員謝謝林沛翔委員質詢主委以及官員請回座 謝謝"},{"start":4796.752,"end":4816.415,"text":"好 再來有請葛如君委員質詢好 謝謝代理召委 有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好 主委好 主委早安"},{"start":4821.353,"end":4846.429,"text":"比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩"},{"start":4846.849,"end":4853.798,"text":"有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來"},{"start":4864.272,"end":4880.027,"text":"像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀"},{"start":4880.708,"end":4899.411,"text":"一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國更會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎"},{"start":4901.575,"end":4918.694,"text":"永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啊等等"},{"start":4920.134,"end":4943.195,"text":"但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目"},{"start":4943.795,"end":4962.424,"text":"一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事"},{"start":4963.084,"end":4985.944,"text":"也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定"},{"start":4987.205,"end":5016.05,"text":"把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分呢從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達"},{"start":5017.17,"end":5031.508,"text":"您的意見或者抗議報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委 劉政委是我們是共同認為接下來"},{"start":5032.93,"end":5061.943,"text":"AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍謝謝所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的"},{"start":5063.772,"end":5084.381,"text":"是共同討論的我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平"},{"start":5085.521,"end":5102.867,"text":"我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天"},{"start":5103.627,"end":5126.682,"text":"不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會的業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學研創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動"},{"start":5128.903,"end":5157.159,"text":"這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委"},{"start":5159.64,"end":5174.685,"text":"1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計劃然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的資料也已經表示了"},{"start":5184.528,"end":5204.191,"text":"其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有"},{"start":5205.111,"end":5232.937,"text":"只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您"},{"start":5234.079,"end":5254.471,"text":"我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導"},{"start":5257.076,"end":5274.105,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究"},{"start":5274.725,"end":5295.852,"text":"那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分"},{"start":5302.874,"end":5317.751,"text":"老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全"},{"start":5318.832,"end":5340.479,"text":"但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡"},{"start":5342.58,"end":5357.48,"text":"都是硬體產業我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出"},{"start":5358.881,"end":5378.517,"text":"這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論啦今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求"},{"start":5382.28,"end":5405.175,"text":"務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用"},{"start":5407.373,"end":5425.392,"text":"第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用"},{"start":5426.613,"end":5453.522,"text":"都是可以討論的選項都可以但是他的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用"},{"start":5456.263,"end":5476.296,"text":"我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排減量的工作而碳排減量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等"},{"start":5477.176,"end":5504.296,"text":"由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點"},{"start":5506.943,"end":5532.457,"text":"我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點"},{"start":5533.217,"end":5540.782,"text":"AI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":5567.599,"end":5583.588,"text":"好謝謝葛如君委員好謝謝那我們這個接著繼續進行質詢我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":5595.53,"end":5622.627,"text":"謝謝主席 請國科委吳主委請主委備質詢 謝謝專委人好主委早安 首先還是要跟主委您討論您在出席大專院校校長會議的時候說到我們台灣沒有自己的諾貝爾獎得主覺得是丟臉的日韓都有他們本土培育的諾貝爾獎得主台灣一個都沒有 一定有問題那出了什麼問題呢 大學自己要檢討"},{"start":5624.709,"end":5643.166,"text":"國會近期也表示說會鼓勵本土研究落地相信會更有機會拿諾貝爾獎主任您覺得國會未來會用什麼方法來協助我國學者或者說您覺得以後我們學術的指標就是要以永多諾貝爾獎為主"},{"start":5645.546,"end":5661.435,"text":"謝謝陳委員我其實是覺得我們國科會每年編列這些科技算是非常寶貴的我們要好好的運用我希望能夠更有效率的來協助我們學界但是我們的學術界自己也要努力的來檢討我們自己的這個在"},{"start":5663.516,"end":5679.266,"text":"高等教育上面的一些制度這些制度其實不是只有政府的法令規章而是很多制度我們現在是學術自由嘛很多制度是學校自己要訂的那我是在鼓勵我們各大學特別是研究型的大學"},{"start":5680.526,"end":5703.335,"text":"能夠好好檢討我們自己是不是把很多的這個指標項目做了錯誤的這個解讀能夠來鼓勵我們的學界寶貴的人力做非常前瞻對人類社會有重大貢獻這種研究那創造人類的福祉如果能夠這樣做的話將來我們在全世界被認可的這個機會就大為提升得到各種"},{"start":5706.536,"end":5714.67,"text":"我想請教主委您覺得在諾貝爾獎的得獎類別之中我們哪一個領域會有比較高的得獎率"},{"start":5715.441,"end":5744.553,"text":"我們在各種科學領域其實我們都有非常好的人力很好的這個素質那但是在研究上面不要太短視精力也就是說只是為了要得到短期內得到很多論文的發表算這個paper的數量而是能夠長期做更重大的貢獻特別是在創新上面不要去追隨別人別人的研究只是想要因為那個領域很容易發表論文就追隨別人就"},{"start":5745.313,"end":5755.607,"text":"一直在同一個領域在那邊累積論文世界而是能夠創新創新這個才是最重要我相信說您是好意的啦那其實本席這邊要強調就是說諾貝爾獎的確是說在學術界在國際間是最重要也是最高的榮譽那台灣雖然目前沒有諾貝爾獎的得主"},{"start":5763.717,"end":5784.937,"text":"但是其實我國在國際間半導體是有很舉足輕重的地位那在民主國家中也是很優秀的很堅韌的民主自由在培養學者跟期待中我們可以調整腳步我們也可以轉變方向但其實我們還是要自我肯定我們國家我們國內這個優秀的科研技術溫暖的人文實力以及建立這個民主制度"},{"start":5785.666,"end":5803.088,"text":"我非常同意陳委員講的所以並不只是得到諾貝爾獎才能夠得到肯定是 我們的人力非常優秀台灣人是很聰明然後很勤奮的可是我們好好地鼓勵我們這些人員做創新的東西我們在全世界會被肯定的會更有機會"},{"start":5803.609,"end":5828.94,"text":"好 謝謝主委接下來再跟您請教關於台積電到美國設廠的這個問題台積電到美國投資一千億美元那相當多的這些供應商也紛紛表示說隨著台積電的東進那所以說台積電它到美國投資加上這些供應商它帶去的效益是一定超過一千億的那本席這邊要討論的是說如果台積電過去了供應商也過去了那台灣的戲盾會不會被削弱"},{"start":5830.084,"end":5848.383,"text":"報告委員我們的台積電它在台灣的投資其實是高於在國外的投資而且這個還在進行當中所以我們國科會在各個園區來協助台積電的發展這個腳步從來沒有停下來現在也沒有現在它的需求還在增加當中"},{"start":5849.304,"end":5868.898,"text":"主委我這邊想請教當從業者跟廠商都指出都明確的感覺到說台灣細鈍可能會被削弱的時候我們國科會這邊的想法跟做法是什麼我們有什麼方法可以作為說我們確保台灣的細鈍或是說當我們台灣在科技界被提及不再是因為台積電的時候那我們"},{"start":5869.739,"end":5876.706,"text":"剩下的優勢是什麼其實本席的憂慮也是我們一般的民眾看到這些報導他的憂慮其實我也知道說國科會這邊你們不僅是台灣基礎科研的推動者也應該是我們台灣科技這個關鍵的這些科技跟技術的領頭羊那如果我們台灣的西頓不在台灣的下一個護國神山是什麼是我們現在對在國際間也很"},{"start":5893.962,"end":5906.849,"text":"受重視的這些太空科技的產業或者說是我們還有其他的優勢那我希望說我們國科會這邊可以帶領因為國人看到這些報導一定會有憂慮那我也希望國科會可以為國人消除這些憂慮"},{"start":5908.91,"end":5936.789,"text":"對 謝謝委員我們的確在各個前瞻科技的這個領域我們都有投入所以不是只有半導體但是特別因為半導體現在對我們非常重要所以我們在半導體就有這個金創台灣計畫這個金創台灣計畫我們第一個重點就是要協助我們的這個半導體前瞻製程製造這個產業能夠持續保持優勢所以在學界投入我們在產業也投入所以這是一個第一個重點"},{"start":5938.129,"end":5944.314,"text":"在剛剛我們早幾天也提到這個AI的產業這個AI的產業的這個發展我們會從過去我們在製造為主的就是雲端伺服器以及當然半導體也是製造為主的這個產業我們會逐步發展到支持我們的百工百業"},{"start":5959.904,"end":5966.188,"text":"希望在各個行業您的意思是說我們不用焦慮說因為台積電到美國去投資了其實我們的優勢還是在的反而是因為我們台積電到美國去接觸到國際這些科技發達的國家我們更有實力在台灣能夠實現我們從半導體跟硬體製造來協助我們發展其他領域反而我們的優勢更為強大"},{"start":5985.86,"end":6007.19,"text":"謝謝主委您的說明接下來我想請教主委關於我們布拉格前進基地的狀況在去年你們有說會做調整但我想請教說你們現在目前調整如何我們要期待說這個設置目前這個設置可以提供未來我們在科研上有什麼其他的效益還有要請教說我們會不會在其他的國家再設置類似的這些基地或地點"},{"start":6008.53,"end":6030.438,"text":"我們原來在布拉格設立的那個基地是要派台灣派人到那邊去訓練他們的學生但是我們其實人力不足我們在台灣連自己的老師都不夠那其實根本沒有能力去做這個事情那其實捷克人也不會覺得台灣人去那邊用英語教他們學生會教得比較好老實講是不會啦"},{"start":6031.138,"end":6045.112,"text":"所以我改變政策就是我們加強跟捷克理工大學的雙邊真正進到前瞻半導體研究這個領域對雙方都好目前這個基地轉型為一個怎樣的設置它變成一個怎樣的性質是一個合作共同合作研究的一個基地"},{"start":6054.172,"end":6073.526,"text":"其實我這邊也理解就是說我們因為相關政策的規劃那我們在施行的時候也要符合就是不管是國際趨勢或整個的局勢的變化但是我們要將台灣的科技實力跟優勢如何進一步的協助到我們其他的盟友或是其他的國家優秀人才來吸引到台灣"},{"start":6074.266,"end":6079.331,"text":"我也希望說你們有一些更有亮點的規劃能夠更有一些實質的效益這個部分你們後續對這個轉型的這個基地的一些相關的規劃是不是也可以一份報告給我辦公室好沒問題謝謝陳委員接下來我想請教諸位"},{"start":6090.382,"end":6094.803,"text":"台鐵在今年1月的時候宣布跟災防中心我們要結合這個科技跟鐵路資源並且因應氣候的這個變遷來提升鐵路在極端氣候下的這個防災的韌性那我想請教主委目前進度怎麼樣我們這個研發的成果預計什麼時候可以投入使用那災防中心目前還有推動哪些跨部會的這些災防計畫的這個科研的相關的規劃"},{"start":6116.309,"end":6140.461,"text":"謝謝陳主任 這個計畫就是去年因為台鐵在花蓮山區因為土石流出了這個事故那個時候我就請我們災防中心要啟動一個計畫來協助台鐵因為整個全台灣所有的鐵公路這種巡檢現在都沒有人力沒有人力可以去做巡檢那現在你們進度怎麼樣那我們的進度我請陳主任來報告一下"},{"start":6141.77,"end":6161.935,"text":"委員好 我們大概跟台鐵簽下了合同以後 就MOU完了以後我們是定期每天都會提供即時的資訊給他們一些參考那我們跟各部會大概目前總共有17個單位已經跟我們有簽MOU了 謝謝那你們提供給台鐵的訊息大概有哪些"},{"start":6162.675,"end":6190.713,"text":"包括天氣的變化還有下雨的即時資訊下雨就是每個小時它的衝擊大致上在周遭的環境裡頭所有的訊息都會提供給它我們其實今年會啟動一個就是把它沿線所裝的監視攝影機AI化將來自動去做這個景色做分析就對了對 做分析景色因為現在沒有人力看那些攝影機了已經連看都沒有人力看了"},{"start":6191.373,"end":6215.445,"text":"更不用談這個巡檢本席在你們災防中心建設的這個3D災害詮釋地圖裡面有發現其實上面有一些資料災害的資料包括像土石流斷層淹水等等但是其中的這個淹水的這個詮釋模擬全台只有四個縣市有淹水模擬資料其中有三個縣市的資料是水利署提供台北市的資料是由市政府提供災防中心在建設淹水模擬圖"},{"start":6216.966,"end":6245.158,"text":"的時候有收集資料上的困難嗎為什麼我們其他縣市沒有辦法建置那如果是沒有困難的我希望說災防中心這邊可以盡速的將這個全台淹水模擬圖建置完成請問你們什麼時候可以完成報告委員其實我們都有建置因為主責單位有水役署啊他來建置這些淹水模擬那我們把這些圖層把它視覺化然後提供給各地你們都有建置但是現在資料上顯示只有四個縣市啊沒有顯示出來啊"},{"start":6246.884,"end":6266.531,"text":"我們會把它補齊 沒有問題會補齊 什麼時候補齊報告委員 這個也需要地方政府配合他們如果願意的話 其實我們資料都有我們都可以做這個分析 然後做這個預警那如果地方政府你們資料都有 但這不是你們建制的網站嗎你們要把資料放上去就可以了"},{"start":6269.641,"end":6273.545,"text":"主席請再給我一點時間我也要為我自己選區的鄉親來發聲其實我們受極端氣候的影響今年颱風來襲的時候災害發生也跟過往有些不同以前都是短時間強降雨造成的這些淹水的災情"},{"start":6288.763,"end":6294.345,"text":"但是在本席的選區沿海、彰化沿海、福清、深港地區頻頻出現了所謂的沿海的災情那在台灣的離島跟山區也曾出現過17起的超級的陣風這也是民眾很難以事先去預料的災害的情形"},{"start":6305.209,"end":6327.744,"text":"所以本席這邊會希望說災防中心也要跟氣象署跟農業部這邊要密切的合作將近年颱風所帶來的相關的災害情形數據呢能夠結合這個前世地圖讓民眾可以清楚的知道颱風來襲的時候需要做什麼防台的準備這個部分你們可以去研議嗎好 我覺得這部分我們可以把它加進來需要多久的時間"},{"start":6329.718,"end":6339.242,"text":"應該今年就可以其實我這邊我要特別提一下沿海造成的障礙其實它不同於下雨你可以去預估甚至可以實際測量那我提一下2023年10月小犬颱風沿海的地區有風大沒有下雨就是風很大然後這個鹽粒子都附著在這個配電線路上的礙子造成了雲加還有我們彰化超過13萬戶的停電我的選區甚至停電超過三天以上"},{"start":6357.21,"end":6370.234,"text":"那這個在之前其實有一些民間的氣象研究者他們又提出警示但是沒有受到你們的重視所以我會希望說既然他們提出的這個警示也造成真的有這樣的災損這是很有參考價值的我希望說你們來研議跟相關的部會像氣象署我們農業部合作之外也希望可以納入對"},{"start":6378.577,"end":6398.476,"text":"地方氣象比較熟知這個變化的這些民間的學者來配合把他們意見納入讓我們的民眾可以親切的比較明確的知道說當這個颱風來襲可能造成了災損的範圍或者情況是怎麼樣讓他們可以預先來做這個預防好 最後我們會納入 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":6402.097,"end":6411.759,"text":"好謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢感謝主委請回座還有部會官員那接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢謝昭偉我們有請主委有請主委備質詢謝謝"},{"start":6428.271,"end":6452.353,"text":"主委好,我想請問一下,因為大家今天都在討論有關於半導體的這件事情嘛那其實之前呢,總統出席外交春宴的時候也有提到說我們要打造一個非紅供應鏈來提升台灣的經濟韌性所以我今天也是要來這邊請教一下主委就是主委在2月15號的時候呢,其實在你的臉書上面也提到說半導體今天有這樣子的成就呢,其實是半世紀以來"},{"start":6453.334,"end":6480.463,"text":"我們自己努力辛苦取得的絕對不是輕易取自他國所以呢願意以台灣為基地來協助友善的民主國家來發展晶片設計晶圓製造和封裝測試那剛剛其實主委在對前面的質詢也都有說明這您認為這對我們來說是一個機會對不對是那我想請問一下根據這個機會我們的下一步的發展我們現在有沒有針對這些友善民主國家有一個比較"},{"start":6481.563,"end":6507.763,"text":"清楚的一個供應鏈的名單呢你說供應鏈就是我們國內的廠商嗎對我跟委員報告我們其實台灣所有的晶片廠商如果將來要發展這個民主供應鏈只要他是台灣設計台灣製造的都是我們的國家隊的隊員那我拜訪了所有的這些台灣重要的這個晶片設計廠商一家一家我都"},{"start":6508.911,"end":6527.049,"text":"分別跟他們談過每一個廠商其實都非常的樂意跟政府來配合雖然我們的廠商他的這個業務是全世界在佈局的但是其實談到這個對於某些國家他必須要使用這個民主供應鏈的"},{"start":6528.87,"end":6551.978,"text":"這樣的這個條件的時候我們台灣隊很快的就可以組起來這一點是沒有問題的我想問一下因為我想大家都比較清楚是台積電他們有說了先進製程還是技術還是留在台灣但是我想大家還是會擔心就是心中的這些您剛講的這些供應鏈他們都覺得非常有興趣但是相關的先進技術還是會以台灣為基地嗎因為我想這是大家最關心的一件事情"},{"start":6553.395,"end":6579.637,"text":"我們的這個先進製程的半導體晶圓製造的技術研發一定在台灣然後它的這個最先進的製程的量產也一定在台灣先完成以後才有辦法把它擴散到全球因為這個過程需要非常非常多條件這個條件現在全世界只有台灣是最成熟做的效率最高"},{"start":6579.977,"end":6595.233,"text":"那我了解就像聽起來就是說即便是我們會去有一些供應鏈他們是會跟著一起到以台灣為基地嘛擴散到全世界這些友善的民主國家但我想來了解一下就是說那有沒有一個相關的規劃時程呢"},{"start":6597.217,"end":6611.78,"text":"時程現在還不是很明確這個要看看市場的需求因為如果市場在當地的市場沒有很高的需求我們當然就不會說很快的就要全部都去那邊投資所以這種投資的行為一定是產業界自己決定"},{"start":6612.481,"end":6629.3,"text":"好 了解 那我想我就再講進入下一個主題就是說聯合國在2025年其實他們每一年都會指定特定的主題跟國際年的一個核心目的主要是在聚焦全球的一些關鍵議題還有凝聚國際的共識並且通過教育 科學以及文化"},{"start":6630.12,"end":6645.946,"text":"來推動一個跨國的一個永續發展那其實每一年的題目都非常的有趣過去我自己有看到就像什麼植物健康年啦或者是永續發展年啦用創意的經濟來促進這些文化產業的復甦啊等等的那您知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":6647.386,"end":6675.676,"text":"就委员有显示了这个对已经谢提了那我想问一下我想这个其实是有特别的纪念意义就是2025年的时候其实就是这一位海森堡他其实在1925年的时候就发表了一个矩阵力学成为现在量子力学的第一个完整理论的描述那到现在已经100年了所以今年就决议来作为百年量子启航的一个历史传承跟未来的展望那其实呢这个里面有一个重点"},{"start":6675.976,"end":6701.004,"text":"有三個重點就是說希望可以提升大眾對量子科學科技的一個重要性的認知那第二個呢就是加強跨國與跨領域的合作那第三個就是聚焦量子科學對永續發展的應用那其中呢在這個這裡面呢他還有講到這個發展的主題他們其實是希望說可以發展這個再生能源技術還有醫療與藥物開發以及金融安全與通訊加密"},{"start":6701.764,"end":6722.348,"text":"我想就是說針對這三個項目博客會現在可能也有一些相關的研究跟主題的一些計畫但是我在今年的業務報告其實是看不太出來是不是有偏重這幾個項目所以我想請教主委就是針對這一個量子力學年我們有沒有相關的一些計畫可不可以簡單說明一下委員這個問題我可不可以請我們資源處處長"},{"start":6729.72,"end":6749.66,"text":"今天是量子年 那我們物理界跟物理學門 包括含有物推中心都有辦一系列的活動 總共有七項包括這個4月12號在這個台北101有個量子點燈的儀式 大概是這樣 這個活動揭開序幕"},{"start":6750.509,"end":6763.867,"text":"好我想因為我還是蠻想要了解有沒有一些更詳細的一些計畫啦研究的部分但如果時間有限的話我想就到時候提供給我一些詳細的內容好不好好的那還有就是說其實在2022年呢博客會其實也針對了基礎科學促進發展"},{"start":6765.889,"end":6793.375,"text":"國際年IYBSSD其實辦過相關的活動那時候還特別邀請到了蔡英文總統來親臨到現場祝福要來講這個紮根科學永續台灣讓更多的民眾了解科學跟永續發展的密不可分我想針對這一系列的活動其實在包含今天的報告裡面其實也都有講到就是說我們其實投入了相當多的一些費用我先等一下"},{"start":6795.97,"end":6822.218,"text":"我們其實投過了相當多的費用那在世界也取得了不錯的成績到現在其實已經投入了80億那下一步下一步呢就是當我們如何扎根基層就是我們如何把這些研究的實力一磅一磅的傳下去那其實我們有一些科普列車我們也有Kids Science我們也有台灣科技新創基地那我們今年會有相關的活動把這個量子力學放進去嗎"},{"start":6822.961,"end":6851.898,"text":"好 謝謝委員這樣的建議我們其實在量子國家隊裡面在台大我們有購置IBM的量子運算的設備他們也很努力想要開發一些有關量子運算的科普的基層教育的活動我想也許我們自然處可以來跟台大討論一下看看能不能把這一項加到我們的科普教育裡面"},{"start":6852.378,"end":6868.571,"text":"好 科普教育部分 那我想就是科普列車我想爭取一下 科普列車啦Kids Science這些其實是對小孩去做這些更基礎的科普的部分是不是也可以一起納入呢有沒有這個機會好 在教育的部分我們會努力讓小朋友聽得懂那樣子"},{"start":6870.993,"end":6886.765,"text":"對 那我想就是這個延續下來就是說作為一個負責任的委員我們剛爭取了活動項目那我也要想要了解這個預算上是不是可以來支持因為其實在今年我們是史上坎福第一的預算案"},{"start":6887.506,"end":6901.935,"text":"那我就會想要知道 那錢到底在哪裡因為其實有很多委員都有爭取一些活動嘛那因為根據土地總署呢 其實立法院決議要求636億元由行政院自行調行之那"},{"start":6903.676,"end":6911.338,"text":"這一切呢其實我不確定說我們現在主委清楚這些對於國會現在的業務國會的部分我們其實非常感謝我們交融會的委員對我們相當的支持我們受到刪減的部分大概"},{"start":6920.841,"end":6944.508,"text":"29億多啦就是統三 這其實是統三的部分然後我們的業務費受到的影響比較大就是凍結的部分比例比較高包含園區是希望說我們報告送到委員會來送到立法院希望能夠盡快解凍因為很多的這個規劃在年初就要開始"},{"start":6945.188,"end":6968.584,"text":"好 我了解是是對 那我想問一下因為其實之前您國客會也有發布在11月27號有一個新聞是因應財化法的修法將會有200億元會受到影響認為這個是對於台灣的科技發展非常非常的不利好 那這個部分呢其實再加上我們的預算審查的一個結果我想先請教一個第一個問題是"},{"start":6970.305,"end":6995.7,"text":"之前我們在詢問這個主委的時候其實你有提到說我們希望可以組成一個AI算力國家隊我們要把我們的算力達到480 petafloss在2028年那時候會到亞洲前三全球前十AI的準備度也會到全球前十那AI是全球競爭最重要的一個重點項目大家都在衝那依據這個才化法還有如果以今年的立法院的預算刪減會不會影響你的目標達成呢"},{"start":6998.479,"end":7022.525,"text":"我們今年在AI算力建制本來一開始在委員會審查之後其實是有受到一些刪減那我也是極力在辯護啦後來有測案所以也非常感謝我們的委員願意支持國科會的這個說法那目前我們今年的預算如果能夠按照"},{"start":7027.507,"end":7045.555,"text":"這個決議來執行的話今年我們的算力會受到影響會比較小但是我比較重點就是說因為政府的這一點投入會引起民間也願意再投更多的錢所以我相信今年民間的這個投入遠高於這個政府的投入我們台灣的這個排名應該會往前邁進"},{"start":7047.196,"end":7070.105,"text":"好像才化法的部分會影響嗎?才化法是我比較憂心的因為當初立法院通過的時候是決議好像說馬上要執行我就非常擔心會影響到今年那現在才化法如果明年要執行的話我們現在已經在編明年的預算恐怕我們也沒有辦法按照我們現在預計的可以編列讓我們的科技預算"},{"start":7071.665,"end":7093.711,"text":"穩定的能夠成長所以我當然也是希望說立法院這邊能夠在財化法修正案能夠有在討論的空間能夠讓我們重要的發展因為科技預算是中央政府在主政很難讓地方分散來執行是非常困難希望能夠維持我們科技預算"},{"start":7093.971,"end":7117.629,"text":"所以簡單來說啦就是說財化法的部分把錢撥到地方之後可能會影響到我們相關的科技研究還有像是我們AI的這些算力的建制嘛對不對對於我們之前講的這些目標達成是的確存在困難的嘛所以我想這個因為財化法其實已經國民黨跟民眾黨已經否決要復議了啦所以基本上就只能靠大家民眾一起來把我們這些"},{"start":7119.151,"end":7127.917,"text":"主委把這些影響來告訴我們的民眾讓大家知道這個對國家的一些影響這些再請主委多多跟大家來做說明謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢主委請回座那待會我們在林益錦委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘那我們接著繼續質詢請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":7146.769,"end":7151.656,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國科會吳承文主委好 請吳主委備諮詢 謝謝吳委員好"},{"start":7157.469,"end":7179.546,"text":"好 主委好主委 國會會是負責我們台灣的科技發展那現在全球也都在競爭AI 量子 太空等各項領域晶片更是台灣科技與產業的重中之重所以事實上呢你們國會會的業務影響到的是台灣在全球的競爭力也是台灣在全球民主供應鏈中的戰略地位"},{"start":7181.347,"end":7205.617,"text":"這是非常重要也關乎到國家的安全所以剛剛在前面各黨派的委員對國科會其實都相當的重視尤其包括你們的科研人才等等的大家都很重視也代表大家都很支持那我們要保持台灣的科技優勢同時要追趕先進國家當然也就需要預算的支持"},{"start":7207.048,"end":7228.435,"text":"所以我們知道在全球的競爭當中其實台灣有很大的追趕空間我看了幾個數字第一在太空領域今年太空中心的預算是47億這其實已經是這幾年來因為政府的重視已經有增加了因為三年前太空中心一年只有34億"},{"start":7229.955,"end":7253.91,"text":"根據之前我們獲得的資訊韓國每一年給太空的發展的預算是190億這是台灣的三到四倍第二在AI領域我們要提升算力這之前主委也講過算力就是我們國力要有國家對所以國科會現在是分三期投入170億要提升我們台灣的AI算力我看了一個英國有一個評比各國的AI指數"},{"start":7255.931,"end":7258.493,"text":"台灣是26名算是中斷班那在亞洲國家目前新加坡是第三韓國第六日本是12所以呢我們也有很大的進步的空間電腦工會就呼籲說台灣的政府在AI資源的挹注應該要繼續的增加繼續的支持"},{"start":7277.805,"end":7297.975,"text":"但是呢剛剛主委前面質詢其實也提到對於才化法通過對於未來我們國科會業務所會造成衝擊的憂心我們行政院主計長在立法院答詢的時候他提到新法的才化法通過之後中央會減少3753億"},{"start":7301.684,"end":7315.285,"text":"平均來換算的話每一個部會會通刪減28%但是我們如果考量國安國防部的預算不動的話每一個部會會刪減的比例可能會高達到37%"},{"start":7317.768,"end":7342.682,"text":"這是近四成衝擊一定是非常之大所以我現在想要請問主委才化法因為通過它是在明年嘛但是你們已經在準備明年度的預算了未來如果國科會的預算要去減少到將近四成37%對我們的科技領域創新發展像是晶片AI太空等各領域目前的初步的評估大概會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7346.485,"end":7364.537,"text":"那我其實有報告過說我對這個非常憂心因為我們很多非常重要的科技研發的項目其實都是我們審慎規劃要全力執行的那如果說有哪些項目因為這個樣子需要是 請問能不能列舉幾項項目"},{"start":7367.386,"end":7383.081,"text":"我們所有的重大項目就是AI半導體這是重中之重我們的量子科技沒錯其實我看過你們提出的資料因為每一項都非常的重要都是台灣在追趕先進國家我們都在努力當中"},{"start":7384.369,"end":7391.75,"text":"如果說按照我們這個今年度的預算比例先來試算的話我們的四大重點領域基礎科研408億未來會影響衝擊的會減少到122億精創與人工智慧107億受影響的會有近32億太空科研43億會影響減少13億淨零科技研究10.8億會影響到要減少3.2億"},{"start":7411.374,"end":7414.795,"text":"這個比例都非常之大影響到我們整個國家的科研科研都是長期的發展不是只有明年後年下一個五年十年的台灣科研會受到多麼大的衝擊所以剛剛我前面聽到我覺得非常好我們各黨派的立委都很支持你們國科會科資院委員關心基礎科研人才的流失我們要給予支持林沛翔委員關心我們的這個AI相關等等的研究"},{"start":7440.365,"end":7457.821,"text":"都要給予支持但是支持是什麼預算的支持啊有預算才有計劃尤其是為什麼國科會要新增計劃新增預算因為有新增業務我們都在努力發展嘛主委我想請問除了國科會以外對於大學的研究經費因為你們國科會才化法若通過預算受到衝擊會不會影響到我們大學裡面的研究呢"},{"start":7466.898,"end":7484.28,"text":"如果真的是按照這樣執行的話的確會影響在你們的基礎科研裡面122億嘛這裡面是不是很多是在大學裡面很多教授學者的研究計畫大部分都是學研單位就是大學教授沒有錯"},{"start":7485.141,"end":7503.38,"text":"對 那一般呢各個領域都會影響都會影響到嘛不是只有我們國科本會的業務而已是那一般我們明年度的研究計畫是不是今年就要提出申請今年年底嘛今年年底要申請對 我們現在有沒有預估大概影響衝擊會有多少因為研究計畫包含了什麼裡面有研究計畫人員"},{"start":7504.801,"end":7515.949,"text":"很多是這個助理我也當過計畫的助理研究人員中研院也做出一個預估因為他們今年的業務被凍結了11億他們去評估說凍結11億會影響到中研院將近3000名的研究助理這當中很多都是碩士班等等的在學生都是我們未來潛在的博士人才所以說這個部分我希望國科會也可以來進行一個評估"},{"start":7530.459,"end":7557.039,"text":"市長跟委員報告大家可能會覺得說就是影響可能三成那如果是通商的話即使是通商三成影響也不是只有三成為什麼因為我們現在國科院的計畫主持人主持會已經調升了然後我們加薪的部分不是只有我們的公務人員教師而已我們連助理也都是一起加薪所以這些人事費用你不能給他砍三成"},{"start":7557.879,"end":7569.751,"text":"所以你真正可用的研究經費是遠比減三成還要嚴重所以這部分我是希望大家能夠理解對 我們都希望說立法院能夠在"},{"start":7571.004,"end":7577.666,"text":"有沒有補救的機會但是現在附議案已經被否決但我現在能夠做的我能夠做的是我必須提醒署委我希望你們可以先來評估這個人會衝擊到的在大學裡面研究助理的人數因為其實我好多我們在學校裡面的朋友都在擔心說他們明年到底還有沒有這個工作因為假設明年沒工作他現在也要開始去找他的出路當然我們希望不要那算是請你們先開始評估並且預先告知好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7600.652,"end":7609.261,"text":"好那我剛剛講了這些我們真的非常的重視尤其是太空三期計畫主任你知道我很重視每一次我都質詢因為好不容易過去本來我們的太空計畫預算是291億主任沒關係因為我今天不會問到細節就請回座"},{"start":7618.211,"end":7627.695,"text":"那後來好不容易加碼 加碼到了是400億可是因為如果財化法通過 明年又要減少38%等於我們的這個加碼 又被砍掉重練 大會原形我們要怎麼樣去繼續的來進步然後衛星其實牽涉到通訊韌性 這都是台灣的國家安全"},{"start":7641.241,"end":7644.503,"text":"所以呢我真的是相當的憂心我也要拜託本會教文會所有的委員大家我聽到大家的質詢內容其實都相當的理性也都非常支持國科會的各項業務但是我們必須要務實的去考量有計劃有業務就必須要有相等的"},{"start":7661.09,"end":7664.751,"text":"預算來去進行支持也希望國科會要讓國人知道我目前我們的發展受到什麼樣可能的影響接下來因為今年國科會有一個計畫相當關注是台灣運動文化研究專案"},{"start":7676.576,"end":7692.885,"text":"因為主委你過去也是少棒國手也參加過威廉博特所以呢你其實本身也就是我們台灣運動史的一部分那因為去年也感謝立法院跨黨派的立委大家共同支持修法通過今年八月預計我們希望運動部可以掛牌成立那我跟這個陳培宇委員也開了立法院開一個公聽會就是在關注我們台灣運動文化記憶的保存我們邀請到了"},{"start":7705.112,"end":7728.985,"text":"資深的職棒選手周董周思齊來與會他就提到一個呼籲希望呢台灣在運動部成立之後能夠有一個運動博物館所以我想現在國科會這個運動文化研究專案非常重要能不能跟我們說明一下這個專案要預期達成什麼樣的目標目前政見情形如何謝謝委員我很感謝我們的人文處提出這個專案因為運動"},{"start":7732.487,"end":7760.856,"text":"變成是我們文化的一部分這個對國家的這個將來文明的提升是非常重要的因為過去我們都把這個運動都只講體育而已那體育的話就限縮在是在教育的這個層面但是運動是跟人的這個身心的健康是息息相關的從小到到中老希望能夠運動是變成我們整個生活工作各個層面文化的一部分這樣才會"},{"start":7761.776,"end":7785.893,"text":"讓我們的國力更為強大所以這是我們最終極的目標那這樣子的話我希望我們的學界好好研究一下怎麼樣把運動從原來的只是一個體育競技運動的項目體育教育把它變成是我們真正文化的一部分就是我們成立運動部也是很重要的任務那這個研究會變成將來我們在政府施政上很重要的參考的依據這樣"},{"start":7786.493,"end":7799.009,"text":"好 我想我們都很期待國會這個研究也希望這個研究未來也可以協助我們國家運動部成立之後對於台灣運動文化保存的發展是好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":7800.922,"end":7823.793,"text":"謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢 主委請回座 謝謝那還是有必要這個說明一下這個國科會的預算今年度是比去年度增加132億同時才化法呢也還沒有做部會的劃分那我們要相信行政院這個發展科研的決心那我們下一位接著請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":7829.191,"end":7832.396,"text":"謝主席 有請吳主委吳主委 被質詢 謝謝林委員好主委好"},{"start":7840.601,"end":7867.427,"text":"賴總統在上個禮拜的公開談話中他有強調說為了強化國安與因應統戰威脅尤其是面對中國日益最嚴重的網路攻擊那相關的主管機關應採取積極的有效作為防止中國透過網路應用程式AI等工具對台灣進行認知作戰及危害的治安那"},{"start":7868.167,"end":7891.697,"text":"國科會作為我國推動這個科技發展的主管機關我想針對我國諸多的關鍵的基礎設施以及這個國家核心關鍵的技術我們應該要進行相對應的防務作業並且跟速發部來合作推動資安的學術研究 落實資安的跨域聯防"},{"start":7892.617,"end":7920.877,"text":"那除了可以防止中國竊取我國關鍵技術的機密當然也要防禦任何形式的資安威脅那再來我們來看這則新聞法新社報導俄國的假訊息陣大量的混入西方的AI系統那藉由各個大型的語言模型灌注大量支持克里姆尼宮的假資訊來扭曲這個聊天機器人產生的內容從而在全國散播這種"},{"start":7922.219,"end":7942.979,"text":"輕惡的言論那本席認為我們如果來看兩岸的資訊戰的狀況散佈假訊息影響AI這種狀況不可能不會發生而且極有可能已經相關的網路攻擊在進行所謂的污染台灣人民使用AI這種情形所以綜合以上的這個資訊 諸位"},{"start":7944.821,"end":7965.157,"text":"上個禮拜總統的談話是否已經收到要進行關鍵基礎設施加強防護還是說國家資安防禦總檢討的指示還是說又或者國科會已經在從事什麼樣的防禦工作另外有關我國要開發AI的"},{"start":7968.88,"end":7976.277,"text":"對話模型Tide那是否有機制來防堵假訊息去影響這個Tide產出 主委"},{"start":7976.943,"end":8003.089,"text":"我們現在其實有在鼓勵我們的學界在研發相關的這個技術希望能夠用AI來提升我們的這個治安的能力那對於這個防堵假訊息去辨識跟防堵這部分其實國科會跟數碼部也會密切的合作相關的這個預算編列我們也會協助未來這個AI的研究我們希望從目前台德是以國科會為主"},{"start":8005.65,"end":8026.847,"text":"我們今年的台德計畫放到國網中心我們的重點就是要建立平台讓各式各樣的應用能夠基於我們台德所建立的基礎能夠發展出來接下來我們希望把模型的研究的主力能夠擴散到學界到產業界"},{"start":8028.869,"end":8047.198,"text":"以及到這個中央研究院能夠擴散開來讓它能夠加速那剛剛委員提到的這個包含國家安全相關的我們在機器人在低軌衛星在無人機我們也都投入相對的這個資源也在加速的發展好"},{"start":8048.719,"end":8053.063,"text":"再來我想跟你談一談我們的科技預算因為上個會期總預算的審查之亂許多部會關鍵預算遭到藍白兩黨無差別的動感"},{"start":8064.073,"end":8088.942,"text":"那我想國科會有回覆本辦公室說通案刪減的預算將影響以投入佈局的一些基礎科研跟精創人工智慧等等那至於二十案的凍結案那也將會推遲我國科研在世界版圖的搶先佈局那可能導致我國科技會落後一些競爭國家"},{"start":8090.683,"end":8120.303,"text":"那產業及科技的人才斷層還有不利產業轉型並造成經濟衰退的風險那本席針對這個預算的影響主要進行幾點的關心首先我國現在的半導體跟晶片的產業如何受到預算通商的影響那是不是會使主委你宣示的AI產業化產業AI化會受到推遲主委"},{"start":8121.224,"end":8142.919,"text":"今年我們的預算剛剛其實召委有補充說到我們這個決算數就立法院審完這個決算數跟去年相比大約增加了100億但是這個100億就是在我們新體的還有像太空科技等等很多地方是非常重要大家也都知道是必須要提升"},{"start":8143.739,"end":8156.003,"text":"我們也非常感謝教文委員會所有的委員的支持,沒有砍更多但是剛剛委員提到說,財化法是我比較憂心的"},{"start":8158.884,"end":8182.706,"text":"財務法如果執行的話,那將來其實我也覺得行政院可能會非常的為難如果要保障國防預算,那是不是要保障科技預算可是我們的衛福預算,我們的長照也是迫切需要錢那我們的這個資安的部分,速發部經費也是被大砍"},{"start":8184.428,"end":8204.538,"text":"那將來在財務法的修正的狀況之下幾乎沒有一個部會它可以說不受影響這是其實對行政來講是非常為難那國科會也很難在這種狀況之下說希望政府其他的東西就盡量砍不要砍我的科技預算我也很難這樣去"},{"start":8205.618,"end":8225.499,"text":"去幫我們整個學界來捍衛這樣的預算所以我還是期待我們的財務法修正案能夠有機會能夠調整調整回我們原來規劃的這個狀況因為主委還蠻重要的是因為科技的研發跟應用其實是需要大量跟外國交流的領域"},{"start":8226.3,"end":8250.944,"text":"那我們也可以看到國科會其實我們幾乎每個月都有派團去跟外國的單位進行交流那藉由交流來提升我們彼此的科學研發技術可是在業務費遭到這個所謂的統三之後那是否這個會降低我們跟外國交流的頻率那導致我們台灣的科研在國際上沒有辦法佔有一席之地這部分你不擔憂嗎還是有什麼因應之道"},{"start":8254.795,"end":8275.103,"text":"我們當然是擔憂啦但是相對來講在國科會被刪減的幅度沒有那麼大狀況之下我們會盡量用邀請國外的合作對象到台灣來的方式來支應這一部分的需求"},{"start":8276.24,"end":8280.583,"text":"好 那談到國外的交流 剛剛您回答秀寶委員的部分捷克我們本來要佈局一個精創核基地現在改成研究導向"},{"start":8291.431,"end":8307.143,"text":"那我請教主委這個政策的調整的利益在哪裡那我們希望達到什麼樣的成效那同時自從這個研究辦公室啟用開始之後那目前到底執行上有展現什麼樣的成果這部分是不是請主委說明一下"},{"start":8307.663,"end":8321.639,"text":"我剛剛有說明說我們原來那個辦公室成立是以台灣的這個教學的人力去支援友好國家在半導體的這個教育但是台灣的人力資源已經非常不足所以其實是沒有能力"},{"start":8322.54,"end":8340.635,"text":"去支援很多的國家協助他們在這方面的教育而且呢其實半大體的領域的這個教育也不是說這些國家他們不能做他們的目標其實只是想要鏈接台灣的製造的能力所以以這一點來講我就修正了我們的這個政策的做法"},{"start":8342.016,"end":8366.677,"text":"我們的半導體的製造不僅在美國在歐洲歐洲現在是德國在日本其實是在協助當地能夠把他們的製造能力再提升上來但是這個過程當中我們也希望能夠對我們有利對我們有利的方法就是說一方面協助我們的廠商在當地能夠有更多的人力的資源可以使用第二個就是說希望"},{"start":8368.158,"end":8389.99,"text":"技術水準的提升不是只有在台灣閉門造區透過因為台積電的關係我們可以跟這些國家來合作做先進製程相關技術的研究前瞻的研究也可以提升我們自己的技術當我們未來在台灣在建立我們的先進製程的發展的時候會更為有利所以我就調整了這樣的策略"},{"start":8392.07,"end":8411.342,"text":"可是如果我們看捷克理工大學副校長在中央社的專訪中有特別提到說雙邊的合作能面臨一些挑戰包括資金模式的建立研究項目的選擇跟如何平衡學術跟產業的需求等等那請問他為什麼會提出這些問題"},{"start":8413.079,"end":8425.249,"text":"他們當然是希望說台灣能夠付出多一點那我們的確有編列相關的預算這個問題現在其實已經解決了也就是說他現在其實很滿意如果現在去問他他應該很滿意了"},{"start":8427.811,"end":8457.157,"text":"另外最後請教主委本席有看到我們國科會對於台灣原住民的研究有投入相當的程度也補助很多的研究涵蓋人文 自然跟生科的領域但是有關於原住民知識體系保存的運作其實我們可以多加利用數位保存的工法所以請教主委能夠加強台灣原住民各種知識體系的數位保存嗎有沒有辦法說我們善用AI的技術"},{"start":8458.598,"end":8478.511,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,我覺得這個想法很好,那我願意支持,如果說我們原住民的學界或者是我們一般學界的學者願意來研究,來支持這個原住民的文物的保存利用這個數位化,用AI來做這個整理,來做資料的保存跟應用,我們都會非常支持"},{"start":8478.871,"end":8496.831,"text":"好 那也要拜託主委 我自己的選區有新化 那有西拉雅的聚落所以西拉雅族群也想請您替我發聲 替西拉雅發聲就是說做這個研究的時候 是不是也投入平埔族原住民的研究"},{"start":8497.695,"end":8507.358,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,這一點我們會把他納進來,應該沒問題好,謝謝主委,謝謝林委員謝謝林警召委,謝謝吳主委請回座,我想接下來我們就休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":8851.547,"end":8854.73,"text":"好 接著繼續進行質詢 請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8874.127,"end":8901.209,"text":"吳委員好主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說"},{"start":8902.33,"end":8918.695,"text":"做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設"},{"start":8927.737,"end":8942.744,"text":"原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域"},{"start":8945.567,"end":8967.89,"text":"報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有46件那這樣我知道了"},{"start":8968.47,"end":8992.21,"text":"我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊"},{"start":8993.251,"end":9018.27,"text":"用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求那既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知什麼叫做知識體系"},{"start":9024.424,"end":9046.5,"text":"就是我想這個很難定義啦好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多"},{"start":9051.232,"end":9078.334,"text":"這個要看有多少研究的人因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念"},{"start":9079.335,"end":9106.093,"text":"我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎"},{"start":9108.508,"end":9110.192,"text":"還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔"},{"start":9116.83,"end":9136.9,"text":"02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊"},{"start":9140.243,"end":9167.225,"text":"有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚"},{"start":9169.24,"end":9176.68,"text":"這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過"},{"start":9178.032,"end":9204.698,"text":"沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是"},{"start":9206.356,"end":9217.358,"text":"我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報"},{"start":9234.227,"end":9255.72,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬"},{"start":9256.4,"end":9268.886,"text":"喔不就是說他除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案他不是在這個專案他是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中"},{"start":9274.649,"end":9294.091,"text":"國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件"},{"start":9295.942,"end":9320.541,"text":"假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下應該是沒有問題的因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講"},{"start":9321.522,"end":9336.91,"text":"你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制援助民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟園民會合作嗎跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請鄭大官大為老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是2600萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中"},{"start":9350.962,"end":9374.935,"text":"所以這個是政大有來主辦是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調"},{"start":9376.167,"end":9403.849,"text":"所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流"},{"start":9404.844,"end":9433.446,"text":"那有成果報告出來嗎?每一年?是是每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎?裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎?我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱喔他四年用兩千多萬喔一年五百多萬喔成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已喔"},{"start":9437.202,"end":9450.815,"text":"到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實"},{"start":9456.143,"end":9468.007,"text":"連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊"},{"start":9471.143,"end":9491.552,"text":"無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告"},{"start":9492.532,"end":9521.53,"text":"AI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事"},{"start":9522.935,"end":9543.78,"text":"所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責"},{"start":9545.76,"end":9562.074,"text":"但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對"},{"start":9564.135,"end":9579.948,"text":"這幾年的一個原住民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":9581.409,"end":9602.215,"text":"謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢的太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思謝謝主委請回座我們接著繼續進行質詢我們有請我們的立院新寫也非常歡迎劉書斌委員的加入我們有請劉書斌委員質詢謝謝主席有請吳主委"},{"start":9609.656,"end":9611.216,"text":"請吳主委備質詢 謝謝主委我們都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員這是第一次的質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係 謝謝今天大家可以看到在有關於"},{"start":9633.041,"end":9641.313,"text":"台積電的到對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管"},{"start":9648.163,"end":9667.227,"text":"高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有一千三座晶圓廠是先進的還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁"},{"start":9674.628,"end":9681.21,"text":"吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資"},{"start":9701.419,"end":9707.664,"text":"國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議"},{"start":9710.653,"end":9733.184,"text":"但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為但是所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關的國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分"},{"start":9735.785,"end":9740.328,"text":"那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢它會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他各國去的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分"},{"start":9760.158,"end":9777.224,"text":"特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法呢是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的嘛那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方"},{"start":9780.066,"end":9788.853,"text":"這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項的奈米技術這邊"},{"start":9797.375,"end":9798.756,"text":"那一部分應該是經濟部啦 可能是物質"},{"start":9818.015,"end":9837.5,"text":"好OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分下一頁我們就可以看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說"},{"start":9839.266,"end":9851.045,"text":"在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教"},{"start":9853.752,"end":9864.576,"text":"經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵科技基礎"},{"start":9870.58,"end":9895.546,"text":"那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的這個專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內有哪些敏感國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術"},{"start":9898.007,"end":9921.133,"text":"提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件"},{"start":9922.473,"end":9931.821,"text":"將來在經濟部他會去解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管"},{"start":9940.529,"end":9955.314,"text":"好 不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別強調技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的大家往下寫"},{"start":9957.345,"end":9966.616,"text":"我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看"},{"start":9975.626,"end":9980.029,"text":"在這地方 台積電過去的投資項目有好幾種包括去美國 去日本 去德國因為剛才 依照剛才技術的關鍵核心技術清單當中是講14米以下的14米以下 大家可以看到是在美國的部分就有432米 還有更先進的部分要呈現出來日本是12 包括有部分在14之下"},{"start":10003.462,"end":10020.178,"text":"那德國是特別專用在車用的晶片當中,是12米,也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下,過去的這一部分,審理的期間大概是多少?那個程序你剛才也有說過了那這樣審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎?這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶"},{"start":10029.093,"end":10039.461,"text":"但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去,所以你的意思是說是設廠而已?那是投資的審議,跟核心觀念技術其實是無關的好,可是剛才我們在往下面看的時候,就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面,其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎?是啊"},{"start":10050.168,"end":10056.133,"text":"在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一"},{"start":10062.469,"end":10089.982,"text":"台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它30幾年將近40幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密"},{"start":10091.383,"end":10107.761,"text":"它是很難被了解的政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的喔台積電自己要保護的很好我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的啦也沒有辦法啦"},{"start":10109.851,"end":10127.978,"text":"可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護的很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心"},{"start":10128.878,"end":10146.525,"text":"那這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話在審理上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員解釋一下嗎"},{"start":10150.367,"end":10173.095,"text":"因為這個台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的這個研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進所以它同一個製程的這個精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進"},{"start":10174.295,"end":10191.819,"text":"所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。"},{"start":10194.807,"end":10222.579,"text":"好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的銷販合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況"},{"start":10224.66,"end":10250.91,"text":"但是這邊我想要衝到最後一頁好嗎這個主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去啦是群聚我剛才也聽到一些部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說您在這個科技的"},{"start":10253.471,"end":10279.749,"text":"國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把他納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把這個講的把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣"},{"start":10282.451,"end":10300.988,"text":"這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是2025年2050年之後就是一直要進行的部分那這邊它可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得"},{"start":10303.01,"end":10329.505,"text":"好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才想到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":10331.426,"end":10342.488,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉淑冰委員的質詢好 主委請回座好 部會官員回座 謝謝好 那我們接著我們接著繼續進行質詢請葉元之委員質詢麻煩請國會主委 謝謝"},{"start":10360.342,"end":10361.324,"text":"請國會主委備質詢謝謝葉委員好主委好"},{"start":10371.943,"end":10397.529,"text":"好 主委那個我也是持續想問一下台積電的問題因為主委之前有提到就是因為台積電的前瞻製程通通都在製造研發都在跟流台灣所以不用擔心會掏空台灣也不會變成美積電這樣講吧是多慮的當然我們希望是這樣希望是這樣但因為市場上包括很多專家學者都有提出相關疑慮譬如說"},{"start":10398.809,"end":10425.708,"text":"台積電的前研發處長他就提到他的分析他說美國台積電的先進製程落地在美國那他擔心說美國會逼台積電把技術移轉或者是把它分割成兩家公司那為什麼呢因為很可能就是到時候美國會把台積電的一些製程用在比如說國防工業上面所以美國可能會希望說直接可以"},{"start":10426.648,"end":10451.82,"text":"變成美國公司那我不知道主委你對於這個看法是怎樣我想台積電到美國投資主要是因應當地市場的需求這我知道主委我想有些東西我們都有共識他會怎麼去一定有他的考量因應客戶在那邊或者是他可能因應未來可能關稅會提高他做出最理性的選擇但我們現在其實擔心的不是"},{"start":10452.76,"end":10478.675,"text":"他美國怎麼樣我們現在思考的是那台積電他到了美國之後對於台灣產業跟國安的影響我是說從這個角度那因為主委之前的言論都比較樂觀然後就覺得說台積電到美國好像不會怎麼樣跟對台灣不會有太大的影響那我現在只是說這樣的評估是過於樂觀嗎還是說您是真的有經過相關的分析才得到這樣的結論"},{"start":10480.227,"end":10506.364,"text":"委員剛剛提到有一點我們倒是沒有明確的去談這個議題就是說台積電在美國設的廠會不會有些產品他在台灣是不會做的那可能會有因為包含美國自己國防機密的一些晶片他可能不希望是台積電在台灣的廠做要在美國的廠做類似這種東西是合理的是有可能的那這一點當然我們也不會在這種"},{"start":10508.345,"end":10531.624,"text":"可能發展的狀況之下台灣也不會去擔心這個事為什麼因為他不是我們的敵對國家那在台灣我們也可能會有自己我們國防需求的經驗也是在我們台灣的產作我們也不希望他在我現在只是說因為你看台積電前研發處長就說他其實擔心美國會把台積電要求技術轉移或分割兩個公司就變美積電這個是那個處長講的"},{"start":10534.907,"end":10563.324,"text":"技術轉移的部分,我剛剛其實跟其他委員有提到技術分兩部分,一部分就是公開的,像專利那些東西那大家都可以去學,可以去做但是那個是需要授權嘛,因為是商業的行為他如果願意授權給別人我們要講,主任,因為這個越講越細了其實我只是說,好像感覺上您非常樂觀但是在業界或市場上面,大家其實有很多不同的看法啦"},{"start":10563.544,"end":10582.629,"text":"我樂觀的原因是因為我們台灣不能夠自詡說台灣的這個科技研發是全世界領先的,絕對不是我們在半導體領域其實還有很多希望跟全世界各國先進國家來學習的合作那好,那這樣我再問再具體一點,那你覺得台積電到美國去投資對台灣的產業會有什麼影響嗎?"},{"start":10584.93,"end":10601.715,"text":"對台灣產業是好的啊是好的是好的就是說因為半導體的市場是在增加這增加當中所以光靠台灣作為製造基地是不夠的那主委請問一下因為那個亞利桑那州州長馬上就要來台灣了嘛這你知道嘛"},{"start":10603.115,"end":10618.394,"text":"那也有傳出說他是不是也會來拜訪一些台積電的供應商啊然後會希望他們到美國投資然後在亞利桑那州可能成立一個半導體的聚落啊那這個部分國科會有掌握嗎"},{"start":10619.955,"end":10641.064,"text":"這部分我們還沒有接到相關的訊息但是台灣的這個台積電它本身台灣這個供應鏈會不會到美國去當然也取決於說他們去到底是會賺錢還是會虧本那當地的政府能夠提供什麼樣的誘因那在包含關稅的這個影響還有那個當地的這個市場的這個拉力等等這個都影響到"},{"start":10647.287,"end":10672.432,"text":"所以我們其實大家會單線點在這邊嘛所以說剛剛台積電去之後供應鏈的整個移過去在那邊成立一個科技聚落之後那台灣這邊的投資會不會因為這樣子受到排擠嘛然後第二個就影響到就業的機會啊都不會 主委覺得都不會謝謝委員因為台積電在台灣還在擴敞當中那在台灣的而且他也幫台灣的這個供應鏈"},{"start":10674.632,"end":10701.747,"text":"國科也在協助我們的科學園區也在幫台積電在台灣供應鏈的整合我們也在協助所以它供應鏈的投資在台灣也會增加至於我們的廠商是不是有機會變成國際級的公司也可以利用台積電在國外的投資它也可以擴大在當地招募人才在當地建立它的製造基地也會變成國際的公司我們期待是這樣的發展"},{"start":10702.788,"end":10729.644,"text":"那這樣子的話我們也希望美國政府也要協助他不管是聯邦政府還是州政府當地的這個政府如果他們有足夠誘因廠商我們是政府不會去逼他嘛那一定是有誘因他才會去你的意思是說因為台積電在台灣還有持續在擴廠所以不會有產業外移的狀況那請問一下因為上一次魏哲嘉在總統府開記者會的時候他有提到希望政府幫他解決用地跟用電的問題"},{"start":10731.465,"end":10743.755,"text":"那之前更有提到就是說台積電未來希望在台灣一年設一個新的廠然後在各縣市那國會的掌握是怎麼樣現在用電跟用地都沒問題嗎針對協助台積電設廠的部分"},{"start":10746.604,"end":10774.53,"text":"我當然不能講沒問題因為還有很多困難要克服有哪些困難要克服當然土地的取得現在台灣土地很寶貴土地我們規劃要取得都要經過我們正常的程序要做環境影響評估你現在是要協助他在哪裡取得用地遇到困難那個我還不能透露不能透露不能透露因為這個規劃的過程當中那會不會有可能因為那個用地取得不了影響到他的社長"},{"start":10775.63,"end":10800.258,"text":"有可能所以之前承諾說以後會在台灣增加生產線一年設一場可能沒有辦法做到有可能他的前提就是說我們政府可以協助他解決所有的用地水電這些問題的確所以政府要很努力所以現在最主要是土地的問題那電的問題土地電水都需要解決都有問題還有我們生態的保育不能夠被破壞生態保育的問題"},{"start":10802.199,"end":10826.699,"text":"對這個生態保育就牽涉到環境影響評估這些事情那主委按照你這樣講嘛就是說因為現在我們也不確定說能不能解決土地水電的問題有可能他沒有辦法設廠那沒有辦法設廠那這個聚落外移到美國的可能性就很高因為你的前提你說不會掏空台灣的前提是建立在台積電未來可以很順利的設廠所以就有很多的不確定性"},{"start":10827.814,"end":10833.544,"text":"對啊那他到國外市場也有很多不確定但是因為像亞利桑那州他們那邊用電沒問題嘛"},{"start":10836.957,"end":10854.845,"text":"他那邊也需要當地政府要協助他所以他的問題可能比我們還大當地政府就有協助他而且還施加 還有壓力嘛所以他有去嘛那我們現在台灣是希望他留在這邊所以要幫他解決問題但是限於環境嘛土地啊 電啊 這些是 但是台灣的政府"},{"start":10858.386,"end":10870.978,"text":"過去的這個時機我們協助台積電台灣政府效率是遠比國外的政府效率還要高但是因為有時候就是土地台灣土地的問題嘛 電的問題我絕對是肯定國科會積極協助台積電我是說是物理環境的限制"},{"start":10876.883,"end":10892.753,"text":"好 那接下來我想跟那個主委請教一下因為這個是3月13號美國外交事務的一個期刊它是一個喬治城大學的教授跟一個美國戰略暨國際研究中心共同發表的裡面提到就是說"},{"start":10894.076,"end":10914.814,"text":"怎麼樣強化台灣跟美國 就是說他是說美國必須要協助台灣因應中國的灰色地帶戰術啦其中提到台灣應該要發展自己的低軌衛星通訊環境那當然他是寫給可能美國政府的建議啦就是說希望美國來協助那我其實我們台灣自己也有發展嘛就在國客會底下"},{"start":10915.495,"end":10943.289,"text":"就是太空中心可是這個太空中心這個國家發射場址現在進度就有落後我們先看舊的計畫因為新的計畫還沒揭露我們先看舊的計畫舊的計畫是113年是去年應該要完成應該要選定國家發射場址的位置但就我了解好像還沒選定現在兩個地方在挑我們這個月底會確定這個月底會確定現在是說屏東跟台東挑一個是不是是那有沒有確定要挑哪個 還沒"},{"start":10943.909,"end":10969.194,"text":"還沒有 這要經過審議會經過審議會那現在國會會有比較傾向哪裡嗎我們審議會會才能公佈我勉強主委揭露啦但是因為現在看起來就是會延後嘛那好像我今年一月的時候是不是有提一個修正案出去有訂定一個新的新的完成國家發射長子建制計畫是不是反而是訂119年啊"},{"start":10970.953,"end":10988.818,"text":"那新的計畫,新的大概是還是一樣我們時程一樣還是一樣119年完成目前時程一樣還是一樣那你1月份遞出的修正案的內容如果沒有改時程的話只有本來是去年年底可是因為經過當地的這個溝通"},{"start":10992.539,"end":11018.761,"text":"因為要跟兩個村 就是南田村跟屏東的九盆村要跟居民溝通等等 那個花了一些時間還有很多意見 他們提出來的意見收集完以後我們的委員還要到現場去訪視 所以拖了一點時間但是我們已經確定這個月底 省議會會開會會通過然後119年就會完成國家發射場建制"},{"start":11019.562,"end":11037.242,"text":"而且會執行兩次陸軌火箭發射活動確定?如果預算確定的話預算確定的話就會確定最後很簡單問一個問題因為川普他有砍了一些研究機構的預算所以這你知道嗎?你有在關注這件事嗎?我知道"},{"start":11041.639,"end":11060.091,"text":"那譬如說像他有篩檢的美國國家衛生院給一些美國大學研究經費那有一些學校已經開始凍結教職員的人士招聘了那剛好我覺得這個機會啦這個國科會因為也都有計畫嘛在招攬外國籍的科技人才我不知道國科會有沒有針對"},{"start":11062.24,"end":11084.095,"text":"針對就是美國的這些變化你沒有看準的這個機會要把一些美國優秀人才把他招募到台灣來委員 這個建議很好我會鼓勵我們所有的學研機構利用這個機會好好去邀請好的人才 國際人才到台灣來這是很好的建議OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11092.97,"end":11096.894,"text":"接著我們繼續進行質詢請郭玉琴委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝郭委員好"},{"start":11114.193,"end":11131.332,"text":"主委辛苦了因為很多人在問台積電我也不例外的也是要講一下這個台積電的部分我們聽到這個魏董事長他其實之前在總統府有開的記者會那之所以會到美國就是投資這樣子的一個金額主要就是因為以台積電來講產能不夠"},{"start":11134.495,"end":11152.842,"text":"所以他必須要拓展產能這個相對來講我用一個更白話的就是說我要因應我自己的客戶當我的客戶太多我需要做給他們的東西太多我沒有人做光是在台灣其實是不夠的所以我必須要到外地請別人來幫我做這個概念對嗎是的確是"},{"start":11154.022,"end":11172.237,"text":"好所以其實就是慘了但很多人又開始要擔心了因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在講說是不是連封裝測試也會去但是以客戶的角度這個是我從財經的報導上面看到的以封裝測試的一個客戶高規格的客戶的他的表示"},{"start":11173.318,"end":11196.912,"text":"目前半導體的這個高層他分析儘管超維他是在這個台積電他們先進封裝的首要客戶之一但是這個封裝的測試總共有三種不同的技術是其中之一但他預估啦其實這個技術並不會在美國擴產也就是說如果要在美國連封裝測試的部分一起算進去光是建廠至少要四年對嗎"},{"start":11198.783,"end":11221.415,"text":"是因為他那個先進封裝的廠他用的技術跟經營製造不太一樣他還要再找不同的這個供應鏈能夠支撐他這個廠的運作這個不是很容易的事情所以準備工作就要好幾年所以光是先進的封裝測試廠的高層他也表示以他對台積電的瞭解他們是非常非常嚴謹"},{"start":11222.475,"end":11237.895,"text":"而且態度是非常的保守跟謹慎設廠絕對有他的道理那不是只有在美國將來其實可能在日本在德國他都一樣也會設廠就是因為四個字他的產能不足"},{"start":11240.037,"end":11262.046,"text":"所以這個魏董事長也不斷的在強調在台灣他預計還要再開11條的生產線也就是說這11條的生產線目前跟國客會這邊也有合作剛剛葉元之委員他也特別提到了我們也正在幫他找適合的地點但是這個必須要很長期的計劃因為他包含了有所謂的內政部"},{"start":11262.786,"end":11282.805,"text":"經濟部甚至還要跟農業部還有環境部等等是不是也要跨部會才能夠找到適合的場子對不對是是好那台積電的問題我就問到這裡好那另外一個部分呢我想就是我們非常的鼓勵各個領域的研究人員以國科會的一個角度來說"},{"start":11284.773,"end":11311.922,"text":"那麼以基礎的科學研究來回應這個社會上的一個需求來創造所謂的這個科研的價值我想這是國科會非常重要的一個宗旨對不對是好那剛剛其實有很多的委員正在關心就是說我們的科研人才的資源或者是我們在學術研究要補助所謂的大專學生的研究的計劃等等這也都是在我們的國科會的這個主要的服務的項目應該講齁之一對不對"},{"start":11313.903,"end":11332.53,"text":"那同時呢我們也積極的在推動這個台灣的科技人才跟國際科技學術單位來做這樣交流的一個跨國的一個事務沒有錯對不對沒有錯好但是呢我們從翠上面我最近看到了一篇當然我不知道他是在美國密蘇里"},{"start":11333.27,"end":11358.456,"text":"州的一所大學他應該也是在攻讀博士吧他說他們系上好不容易錄取了一位這個來自台灣的博士生本來是希望他可以來到這個地方來深造但是呢前幾天他來信告知可能沒辦法成行因為他向國家申請的獎學金呢在今年因為預算刪減而暫停發放雖然他們為他保留了這樣的一個名額直到明年但是還是"},{"start":11359.736,"end":11381.216,"text":"沒有任何可能性或者是肯定的一個答案那他也特別說到這一位唯一來自台灣的博士生要入取有多麼的嚴格在眾多的競爭者當中光是他們系上收到了33份的申請只有這一位台灣的博士生他入取了"},{"start":11382.657,"end":11403.732,"text":"逐漸他凌駕他的才華以及他的整個所有的能力優秀是凌駕在其他國的博士生申請的一個名單上面但因為我們的預算被砍了因為我們的才化法的部分也嚴重的影響到了這樣子的一個狀況接下來我就想要問一下我們的主委了"},{"start":11404.772,"end":11431.634,"text":"在我們的這個財政收支劃分法修法之後我們的中央的部分有3753億那這個部分呢除了在114年度的中央總預算裡頭我們扣掉了所謂的法律義務的支出還有補助一些限制以外3.1兆的這樣子的一個預算之後呢也因為財劃法這樣子的劃分我們可能要面臨28"},{"start":11435.177,"end":11453.135,"text":"28%的嚴重影響那28%是好的我還說是好的為什麼因為如果國防預算其實是不容被刪減的可能會高達影響層面37%以上那在國科會四大領域可能就會被嚴重影響有四個部分"},{"start":11453.755,"end":11473.647,"text":"基礎的研究 精創跟人工智慧 太空科技 淨零的科技等等這些全部都會被影響 我不曉得目前為止我們國科會怎麼因應這個狀況目前我們接收到行政院主計總署來的這樣的訊息現在只是預先來決定怎麼處理的這個階段"},{"start":11482.591,"end":11509.617,"text":"那如果是28%我想如果要通商就影響到所有的計畫那這個影響的範圍實在是太大了但是如果說你要把某些計畫就刪掉就不做的話那同樣的也會影響到非常多的我們重大的那個科技政策項目就無法執行所以都是非常的困難所以我當時才會說這個會是一個災難性的這個結果"},{"start":11512.498,"end":11535.104,"text":"所以其實這個是我一直從早上聽到現在不管是各個部會也好那尤其在我們的國科會就是一方面又希望國科會能夠多多的培養多多的投資在我們的科研的人才上面那二方面其實因為我們的預算因為我們的所有的經費可能會嚴重受到災難性的影響"},{"start":11536.104,"end":11549.796,"text":"所以我真的不知道要馬而好又要馬而不吃草的概念是從何而來好那接下來我來問一下就是我們台灣的算力AI算力我想這個AI算力其實也是我們非常重要的就是一門課題那在我們"},{"start":11553.038,"end":11578.926,"text":"目前台灣的AI算力在排名全球的排名是第11那這個部分是怎麼樣應該要來因應跟縮小跟國際AI強權的一個算力的一個差距我們是不是有一個進程的計畫那因為我們知道其實包含中國不管是Deep-seek也好他們用低成本高效能的一個優勢那我們在這個部分是怎麼樣來強化我們自己本身的競爭力呢這個部分"},{"start":11580.034,"end":11595.086,"text":"國會現在我們也初步決定了就是除了我們自己在發展的這個台德之外我們現在正在鼓勵我們的學界中央研究院甚至我們的產業界也大力來投資因為現在我們可能無法像"},{"start":11595.666,"end":11610.506,"text":"像美國那樣子去做非常龐大的開創性的這種大型語言模型因為那個要投入的確是超過我們的能力所及但是呢 基於現有的這個開源的這個模型我們做一些前瞻的這個應用"},{"start":11612.268,"end":11633.837,"text":"特別是優化這些模型讓這個能源的使用效率提升讓它適合台灣的環境使用我們的資料建構主權AI這部分前瞻的研究我們會大力來支持我們的學界跟這個業界要做我們也支持如果有持續的一個比較更積極的一點進程再提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":11635.017,"end":11644.039,"text":"那再來我想要問一下就是包含我們的這個低軌衛星的部分那我想大家都應該還記得2023年就是台馬的這個電纜斷纜就是斷纜的這個事件其實造成了馬祖地區的民生跟經濟形同像是孤島一樣那等於對外的連結都沒有了"},{"start":11655.322,"end":11672.097,"text":"那當然在這個俄烏戰爭當中其實所謂的地軌衛星它佔有非常重要的一個國防的一個地位那2019年到2023年台海的這個海嵐受損的部分總共是36件那平均大概每一年大概都有故障大概將近7件"},{"start":11673.678,"end":11697.913,"text":"2023年甚至高達了12件創歷史的新高那近三年來其實我們周邊的一些斷纜的一個事件平均每年發生至少是七到八次但是在今年前兩個月其實我們就很擔心了因為連續發生了大概有四起那想問一下就是我們的主委目前我們的低軌衛星推動的進度應該是如何那就是"},{"start":11698.533,"end":11703.296,"text":"是不是在我們的這個福惠9號還有這個B5G的一個地軌衛星都已經預計在2027年發射這個是不是會如期進行"},{"start":11709.949,"end":11737.868,"text":"我們目前規劃如果預算沒有影響的話會如期就是2016年,2027年我們會發射第一顆通訊先啟就是我們家B5G的這個通訊衛星但是我們現在還是因為在我們還是依賴歐洲的這個OneWeb的低軌衛星那我們是要怎麼樣去強化我們自己本身的就是去降低這個依賴性這個目前有沒有一些進程的計畫"},{"start":11738.854,"end":11753.539,"text":"我們除了目前在使用的這個OneWeb的服務它的頻寬受到限制所以沒有辦法擴大我們現在正在跟其他的這個美國的公司也在洽談當中很有可能明年我們會由這個美國"},{"start":11757.02,"end":11781.207,"text":"Amazon Kuiper來提供額外的服務至於國安的需求我們的國安會也在尋找可能的美國公司在中高軌相關的衛星服務也在強化當中所以政府其實是對於我們的通訊韌性現在花了很大力氣能夠建立相關的能力確保我們的通訊韌性因為現在這個"},{"start":11783.848,"end":11804.285,"text":"海底光纜被刻意破壞這個情況越來越嚴重也造成人民非常大的反感在這種狀況之下我們必須要加速我們的衛星的能力好那我們希望就是在跟美國有進一步的確定的一個合作的時候其實也把這樣子的資訊提供給大家好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝郭議員的資訊主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11811.459,"end":11814.822,"text":"好 接著繼續進行質詢我們請范雲委員質詢謝謝召委 有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":11827.765,"end":11845.664,"text":"主委早 今天有兩題想跟您請教跟討論第一個是關於我的預算提案就是大型學術會議的無障礙配套第二個是關於AI在學術應用上的角色跟規範"},{"start":11848.627,"end":11855.335,"text":"第一個部分就是我已經跟你們問了就是我的預算提案那你們有正在準備那你們已經會修正那個國科會的補助國內舉辦國際學術研討會的作業要點的第八點未來的申請機構可以編列無障礙措施經費需求我覺得這個非常好那這點我表示肯定"},{"start":11869.711,"end":11877.334,"text":"但是我的預算案其實是要講到是說要落實因為我知道對機構來講這還是有點麻煩的事你有經費補助他能夠提出不代表他會做我覺得一開始這個階段這樣是蠻好的所以我想請國科會是不是可以參考衛福部2024年去年10月修正的身心障礙者融合式會議及活動參考指引訂一個時間表"},{"start":11897.981,"end":11922.131,"text":"譬如說你們認為多久內我們國內所有的大型學術會議都能夠有無障礙的設施好嗎好謝謝委員這個建議是很好所以我們現在正在努力因為學界是蠻自由的那我們希望首先先透過這個引導我們邊預算他們可以來申請引導他們做然後慢慢讓大家習慣以後"},{"start":11923.351,"end":11934.863,"text":"接下來下階段看看能不能變成這個規定這個可能是需要一年兩年或者是更久可以給我一個時間表然後不同階段做法那能不能夠那個兩個月內給我辦公室一個報告呢好謝謝主委的支持那我想這是對大家來講就是我們國際化的重要指標"},{"start":11944.693,"end":11964.458,"text":"那第二個就是AI,我知道主委也非常熟悉這個主題那也很關心,那國歌會我想你們應該對這個題目也非常的有興趣,正在發展因為我自己辦公室做了一些研究那2023年的Nature的一篇文章就有指出研究者其實早已開始用Chat GPT譬如說改英文、改句子"},{"start":11970.32,"end":11998.08,"text":"包含總結文獻去為文獻做總結然後那未來這篇文章講到其實它甚至可以幫你做研究設計以後甚至還可以幫忙就是審查論文所以它的角色其實是越來越重要那我想問主委你認為AI運用於學術研究哪些行為是可以接受的哪些是不行主委可不可以解答一下因為我後面還有很多要問您請教您的"},{"start":11999.301,"end":12025.788,"text":"有關像CHECKGP這種AI的工具應用在各種各樣的領域是一個趨勢我們當然也希望它能夠變成是一個好的工具但是要怎麼樣去防止它變成是一個規避所謂的創作人的創作然後還有智慧財產權的議題等等我們可能還需要一些配套措施還需要再研議"},{"start":12027.889,"end":12049.526,"text":"我們傳統的所謂的學術倫理定義的範圍現在都還依然存在將來我們可能的做法就是將來AI創作的部分要留下軌跡讓我們可以辨識這種規定將來可能會慢慢會實施就是留下軌跡可以辨識或者是所謂的自我揭露那這可能會是基本的"},{"start":12050.247,"end":12070.52,"text":"那我的辦公室的那個做了一些小的research我們發現那個Nature 2023年跟Science 2024年就指出因為AI的快速發展它的技術其實是可以被運用在偽造學術研究上那甚至有一些跡象就是指出它的可以處理假資料"},{"start":12071.621,"end":12100.26,"text":"沒有驗證的學術假設他可以幫你跑出怎麼樣資料是適合的那甚至已經有期刊他出現大量的評論文章因為在譬如說Medical research就是這邊那你這個commentary事實上是不用peer review的不用同儕的他比較容易刊登某些就是南亞的一些機構大學可能會鼓勵他們的員工做這樣的部分那所以這部分就已經有產生了"},{"start":12101.741,"end":12123.404,"text":"所以AI時代下學術評論投稿跟被撤回的論文爆真已經有一些研究覺得這個有相關比如說我這邊引用的Nature的一篇文章2023年的文章中法國的一位電腦科學家就說有個期刊出版社叫Hindawi他撤回了"},{"start":12124.045,"end":12146.511,"text":"一年內就撤回了八千錄因為它旗下有好幾個期刊那裡面呢包含文具會故意用一些字句避免被就是抄襲軟體發現而且有跡象顯示其中的一些論文沒有揭露使用AI那但是這些已經被撤回的論文其實已經有引用過超過三萬五千字就整體"},{"start":12147.691,"end":12172.959,"text":"那另外就是Science的2024年的文章也指出有一個期刊叫做Neurosurgical Review那它的編輯說他們暫時停止接受評論性的學術文章就Commentary因為他們發現這裡面大量增加的評論文章的是由Chat、GPD等AI工具撰寫的仔細去看的話可能就是品質低落或者是完全沒有相關性"},{"start":12174.299,"end":12186.093,"text":"所以我想這些就是重量級的期刊裡面提到的現象所以主委剛剛聽起來您是同意學術研究中的AI使用是要揭露嗎"},{"start":12187.04,"end":12210.219,"text":"是 我認為這樣 那這也是趨勢 但是這個AI創作創作不管是影像 影片 還有文字 藝術品等等這些東西要留下軌跡 有一個叫浮水印的技術 這個還在發展當中您認為學術的圖片可不可以用AI 就是只要自我揭露留下軌跡就可以使用AI的製作嗎"},{"start":12213.855,"end":12235.294,"text":"人的研究他的成果創造新的知識這是我們要省電學術文章的重點他要能夠讓人家相信這不是用工具自動做出來而是他自己的那這種機制是非常困難還在發展當中我們希望國科會將來也是慢慢要去注意這個事"},{"start":12236.415,"end":12244.142,"text":"我想您說慢慢我是覺得好像不能慢慢了要更快一點因為需要工具還在發展當中這個真的是需要專業來討論了解學術倫理的跟了解AIGPT的那我這邊"},{"start":12251.149,"end":12274.449,"text":"就是你們目前的學術倫理裡面還並沒有包含AI這個部分嘛我想主委很知道那根據我們陽明交大的那個周嵌副校長他的網路上的那個公開的研究目前國際上多家學術期刊跟出版社我就不念了他有一些基本的規定第一個深層是AI不能成為作者"},{"start":12274.949,"end":12299.208,"text":"第二個要進行揭露AI寫作應該要在因為我想AI寫作國內我們也知道有蠻多會幫忙尤其是英文的寫作在研究方法或聲明等處要進行揭露那當然作者還是應該對原創性正確性完整性負完全的責任當然這只是一個學者國內學者的研究那我們辦公室也去查了您剛講到的圖像"},{"start":12300.569,"end":12326.678,"text":"非常有趣我們指標性的Nature已經明確指出他們不允許全部或部分使用生成式AI創作的影像、影片或插圖在它的網站上都可以看到理由是因為研究成性出於同意保護智慧財產權、隱私等這些原因當然我們未必完全需要跟Nature一樣但是我想今天其實就是藉這個機會"},{"start":12328.325,"end":12354.48,"text":"跟主委討論我們是不是應該要參考國際標準那國科會找相關的學者專家開始來評估那關於國內的期刊的標準就是我們的就是研究計畫等等是不是應該要有跟AI的相關的規範哪些是可以的行為那需不需要揭露那哪些是不行的那主委覺得呢可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":12355.541,"end":12367.243,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議我覺得這個方向我非常肯定那我們誠信辦公室接下來會努力把委員這個建議我們會把它納進來召集相關的學者"},{"start":12368.824,"end":12385.444,"text":"抱歉我們電電相關的規範感謝主委承諾那是不是也可以在您認為兩個月可以給我們一個初步的報告跟方向嗎可以謝謝主委對那個無障礙的支持還有對AI方向的進一步的釐清跟規範謝謝"},{"start":12389.877,"end":12402.785,"text":"謝謝范委員質詢主委請回座謝謝好那我們接著繼續進行質詢請陳培宇委員質詢時間因為是第一位外委會的這個時間五分鐘好被主席提醒是外委很難過好來五分鐘那個有請主委謝謝主委請被質詢謝謝"},{"start":12420.719,"end":12437.804,"text":"好主委我過去一整年不對是一年多都一直在跟國科會討論關於兒少自殺的死因回溯很開心國科會當時就承諾了會進行後續的研究確實我們辦公室也收到了好幾次的會議通知我們確實開會了很多的實質內容這個部分真的要感謝國科會"},{"start":12438.944,"end":12449.129,"text":"願意以國家的力量來研究來協助支持我們台灣的大人去理解兒少身心狀況的改變但是我想問一下目前的進度時間有限我們直接跳到這一張目前給我們的書面回覆說因為有人事調動新來的黃處長2月17才到任"},{"start":12456.693,"end":12475.441,"text":"我們知道在業務交接上應該還有一些理解的困難跟落差那可不可以請主委這邊快速讓我們知道一下這個案子會不會持續然後後續的進度規劃因為你們在研究計畫當中提到會有AI的部分那我想AI的部分到底適不適合你們的專家學者應該有一些討論但我想我還是要提醒"},{"start":12476.382,"end":12486.402,"text":"而上死因回溯這件事情他必須要處理的倫理議題也好專業議題也好或者是研究方法也好其實我相信有更多專家學者可以參與這邊是不是可以請國科會這邊簡單回應一下"},{"start":12487.867,"end":12515.017,"text":"好謝謝陳委員我們絕對支持我請新來的黃處長好那處長我時間有限可不可以請您簡單快速回覆我想我們之後會可以繼續開會討論是跟委員報告就這個計劃案就是我們目前從113年啟動之後事實上關於這個結合AI的這個實務研究還有特別針對這兒少在心理危機還有自殺風險的分析這目前都就正在"},{"start":12516.277,"end":12541.898,"text":"進行當中相信不久應該就會有一個比較清楚的輪廓好那我想不管是輪廓或是後續研究推進的進度或者是我們多久要產出一些報告不管是長期的短期的我們都非常期待看到透過研究來讓我們台灣的大人理解兒少身心健康的議題那可能也讓教育部或衛福部在做成相關政策的時候有非常重要的參考依據這部分謝謝國科會我們一起繼續努力"},{"start":12542.498,"end":12571.582,"text":"好 接下來我也一直在談科普這件事情我知道我們有新的相關的主任然後也有相關新的想像但是我還是要強調關於科普不會只有活動這件事情那我想我們就負責任的來提出一些建議來看下一張其實我們之前一直談過除了活動之外其實還有所謂的科學傳播跟知識轉譯那所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯有哪些呢我們就舉一些例子來 這個是新的例子"},{"start":12572.182,"end":12583.909,"text":"就是從科技部轉到國科會被放生的SMC台灣科技媒體中心的計畫我想那個時候主委您還不在可能對於這個事情沒有記憶但我跟您簡單說一下2027到2021當時是在科技部的計畫支持下成立後來到了2022年科技部只有一個一年計畫"},{"start":12592.594,"end":12612.457,"text":"後來到2023年主改為國科會之後就停止支持這個項目的工作到目前為止台灣科技媒體中心居然是由新穎寺民主基金會在支持台灣的這個台灣科技媒體中心做的相關的研究跟報導不知道這個部分主委您怎麼看"},{"start":12614.812,"end":12636.59,"text":"這個項目其實我並不清楚對對對我剛一開始就有說那我這邊提出來還是我先幫我回到上一張頭影片我這邊之所以提出來就是我屢次都強調活動當然很棒而且越來越好之前有非常多委員提醒的不要過度的宣傳的費用造成了好像只有宣傳的沒有實質活動所以我們非常謝謝李老師在您到任之後您確實實質"},{"start":12637.571,"end":12657.118,"text":"改善了很多事情那我们现在就是进一步想要拜托国科会传播的部分知识转移的部分我相信我们可以一起来努力往下一张所以我才会提出台湾SMC这件事情那我相信主委您是不清楚的没关系我们之后再进一步讨论好谢谢委员这个部分我们会追踪那下一个其实科普政策"},{"start":12658.238,"end":12664.286,"text":"還有另外一個事情就是獎項規劃的部分目前國客會我跟你們說過的獎項的部分我覺得好像現在還是處於一個搭便車的狀態沒有實質的推進這個部分主委可不可以回應一下"},{"start":12677.526,"end":12687.776,"text":"抱歉委員我沒有聽懂這個好就是在你們自己的諮詢委員會當中我們談到所謂科普工作者設定一個獎項來鼓勵很多科普對然後你們的諮詢委員會真的很棒開啟了討論那在會議當中委員們也都很支持委員說"},{"start":12695.703,"end":12721.214,"text":"一可以考慮跟其他縣有獎項合作例如說個人獎的部分可以結合國科會的傑出研究獎或者是在跟文化部討論有沒有相關的合作或者是跟走鐘獎甚至有這個走鐘獎的合作的可能性那一個是國科會為主體去支持所謂這些科普工作者或者是跟別的單位合作我都認為應該更有國科會的主體性好 他們已經有言議我請他報告一下清楚好 謝謝"},{"start":12723.611,"end":12729.052,"text":"跟委員報告就是如螢幕上所示就是我們是有這三種規劃就是"},{"start":12730.747,"end":12753.373,"text":"如果可以以國科會的傑出獎來搭配的話其實是更有學術的價值好那如果是這樣我們期待後續的規劃好不好那最後一張最後一張好就是我的建議在這邊因為他們還沒有跟我報告我知道我知道那我們期待後續更有國科會的主體性讓這些傑出的科普工作者受到鼓勵然後更多國人看見好科普的事情我們可以一起更努力謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":12756.033,"end":12760.296,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員 歡迎多回來我們教文委員質詢謝謝主委 請回座 謝謝接著我們繼續進行質詢 請萬美玲委員質詢好 謝謝教委 我們有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12778.595,"end":12792.437,"text":"王委員好好 主委好主委還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化的程度你還記得嗎講完就忘了好 來 我提醒您一下在當時其實您也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI指導還有相當的距離在那像過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎"},{"start":12808.316,"end":12810.722,"text":"還沒有一年但你還沒有想起來"},{"start":12813.507,"end":12835.744,"text":"好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的你忘記了我希望你能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備這個調查這個報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力"},{"start":12843.49,"end":12844.69,"text":"那剛才看到這些數據我們來看更細緻的"},{"start":12863.038,"end":12879.038,"text":"那在台灣的企業當中我們看到7.9%的企業具備資料蒐集的能力但是不知道要如何應用38.6%的企業各部門自行的去蒐集資料來使用可是缺乏了統一的策略管理"},{"start":12879.759,"end":12896.862,"text":"那么35.6%AI仍然处于初步的探索阶段甚至有将近9%完全没有使用AI接下来我们看到42.6%的企业只有很少数的员工具备AI的知识但是26.7%的员工是完全不懂AI的"},{"start":12897.542,"end":12904.764,"text":"這個數據很可怕大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了"},{"start":12918.807,"end":12938.85,"text":"這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展那政府有沒有或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎"},{"start":12940.647,"end":12955.341,"text":"不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解"},{"start":12955.962,"end":12971.176,"text":"那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看"},{"start":12971.897,"end":12989.044,"text":"这些数据其实凸显的是我国企业的AI应用普及率还是低的我相信这一点我们都同意但是这也来自于我想政府相关的AI法规到目前为止是没有完备的所以这也会影响到我们整个台湾AI的研发跟企业对于AI的应用进程这您同意吗同意"},{"start":12989.884,"end":13014.423,"text":"好您同意那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來"},{"start":13017.022,"end":13031.298,"text":"在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想喔"},{"start":13031.738,"end":13049.603,"text":"你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼"},{"start":13056.17,"end":13082.495,"text":"在行政院的會議啊我懂了 因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啦好 我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的基本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下"},{"start":13084.295,"end":13107.151,"text":"國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事發部你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事發部主政的時候他的需求"},{"start":13108.434,"end":13136.861,"text":"主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部"},{"start":13137.341,"end":13153.977,"text":"是在說不管是這個風險啦資安啦等等所以去改的我聽起來我們是要考慮沒有錯但是完全把這個國科會的角色通通弱化掉我覺得也不太對因為我們知道這個草案的方向鼓勵採取創新研究可是如果我們把它"},{"start":13154.717,"end":13168.814,"text":"它變成了是這個國家安全或者涉及高風險為一個這個理由改成這個速發部那將來可能就會變成走這個管制AI的角度來研修這是完全不同的方向這當然我們可以討論可是過去我們其實在做的過程當中就不是這樣嘛所以我想我們現在AI其實發展是非常的快速"},{"start":13174.36,"end":13196.852,"text":"可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破那如果说我们没有去加速赶快去把这个迎头赶上而且我们又没有法律的规范那我们的草案到现在呢还是这个delays我觉得我们要什么什么超美赶中啦等等啦我觉得这个看起来有一点点好像遥不可及所以我希望啊国科会啊"},{"start":13197.532,"end":13212.708,"text":"這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快院辦第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國會來做還是說現在主委覺得杯酒釋兵權了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛"},{"start":13220.852,"end":13241.613,"text":"我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行政這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦我們希望"},{"start":13242.093,"end":13256.676,"text":"不管是本席還是我們昭偉所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實政策會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論"},{"start":13257.677,"end":13267.963,"text":"主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來國科會穩定的挹注了科研投資全國科研經費已經達到1595億2020年起更獨立編練基礎這個科研的預算五年來從220"},{"start":13277.408,"end":13304.274,"text":"282億元增加到408億增幅達到45%所以你認為讓大學沒有後顧之憂但更舉出來日本出現了很多諾貝爾獎的得主所以你認為台灣的教育有問題到現在沒有培養出諾貝爾獎的得主真是丟臉我想這個話其實說得蠻重的所以我想請問一下主委我回去以後其實雖然是研究了很久我今天我想直接問主委"},{"start":13304.614,"end":13329.027,"text":"到底這個丟臉是政府丟臉還是國科會丟臉還是我們高等教育丟臉還是大學丟臉應該是我們整體的高等教育體系負責前瞻的學術研究讓學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系"},{"start":13330.029,"end":13334.616,"text":"丟臉就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎應該講有有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重"},{"start":13347.915,"end":13363.495,"text":"我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬喔除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環喔我當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究"},{"start":13364.798,"end":13379.836,"text":"負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到主委我理解我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議"},{"start":13382.078,"end":13400.396,"text":"主委我有了解您那天所說的啦我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面啊所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嘛我也丟臉啦"},{"start":13403.899,"end":13423.008,"text":"對 所以你可能從這個自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想但是他"},{"start":13431.148,"end":13451.625,"text":"你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二"},{"start":13452.065,"end":13457.151,"text":"我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持彭土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔"},{"start":13474.429,"end":13481.792,"text":"站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效那怎麼樣去輔導沒有做好的地方"},{"start":13502.139,"end":13511.929,"text":"我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國科會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發的經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%"},{"start":13525.242,"end":13529.905,"text":"美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是主委我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後忘記了"},{"start":13554.282,"end":13563.666,"text":"這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會喔一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":13581.544,"end":13593.876,"text":"接下来我们继续进行质询请何新淳委员质询何新淳委员何新淳委员不在那我们接着继续质询请汪晓琳委员质询谢谢召委有请主委请主委备质询谢谢"},{"start":13607.663,"end":13613.984,"text":"黃委員好是主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術"},{"start":13636.149,"end":13648.68,"text":"所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠"},{"start":13649.69,"end":13673.538,"text":"目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了那它是4奈米的製程那接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說"},{"start":13674.898,"end":13690.907,"text":"台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後"},{"start":13695.749,"end":13708.423,"text":"接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎"},{"start":13709.922,"end":13731.73,"text":"美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂的管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵"},{"start":13733.03,"end":13758.215,"text":"核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產"},{"start":13759.555,"end":13766.54,"text":"那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算"},{"start":13780.57,"end":13797.052,"text":"包括让你去设厂,接下来可能会有很多的相关的设备厂商一起去那这些因为他们都属于量产了,而且可能都标准化设备化了所以这些不是属于我们国家的关键技术大家都可以到那去设厂"},{"start":13798.217,"end":13817.039,"text":"報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說2奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個"},{"start":13819.329,"end":13839.402,"text":"所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都純熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這個是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部投手會所以現在經濟部投手會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎"},{"start":13841.035,"end":13844.482,"text":"他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎"},{"start":13852.691,"end":13865.606,"text":"國科會應該會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候"},{"start":13871.877,"end":13897.612,"text":"有重新修正過最新的國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下"},{"start":13902.734,"end":13912.827,"text":"國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國"},{"start":13915.06,"end":13919.221,"text":"我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了"},{"start":13937.16,"end":13943.128,"text":"如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面"},{"start":13953.542,"end":13975.456,"text":"是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?"},{"start":13979.09,"end":13985.964,"text":"當然我這方面是外行啦像什麼晶片安全技術啊量子位元製程技術啊這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎"},{"start":13989.5,"end":13997.082,"text":"我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重"},{"start":14015.822,"end":14044.283,"text":"是但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎你們已經公告了這份清單我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定但是從國科會的角度你們認為要在那裡要設置2奈米3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告"},{"start":14046.163,"end":14067.569,"text":"半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程製造台灣比他們強所以knowhow很重要就像我們在講其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強"},{"start":14068.789,"end":14080.863,"text":"但是Technician很重要啊沒有錯啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術是不是但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告"},{"start":14081.388,"end":14099.034,"text":"是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚"},{"start":14100.245,"end":14124.814,"text":"對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電"},{"start":14127.515,"end":14129.817,"text":"他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊"},{"start":14134.993,"end":14162.935,"text":"國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下國科會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是因為汪小林委員還沒問完那時間到了請主委是不是書面答覆"},{"start":14164.156,"end":14181.68,"text":"那我也提醒一下主委剛剛有一些細節是很明確的也要希望您可以尊重立院來明確的回覆剛剛關鍵技術有提到14奈米現在出去的是3奈米2奈米您其實是可以回覆的再麻煩您可以再根據您的專業跟經驗再與相關的回覆那我們接著進行質詢有請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":14200.117,"end":14214.075,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列車中央總統官員 會場工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們吳主任委員跟太空中心吳主任好 請主委及吳主任備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14217.489,"end":14246.204,"text":"總委員好主委好吳主任好今天又來關心火箭的問題各國在增建運載火箭那麼發射機率非常搶手太空港的選址呢應該將聯外的海陸運輸思考在內好 請教一下那個請吳主任來協助一下吳主委請問亞馬遜他在大概七年前就已經有一個鼓勃計畫打算要在太空中佈置多少的地軌道太空衛星三千多顆是嗎 是有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":14247.909,"end":14260.9,"text":"阿瑪隆是3000多顆對3000多顆嘛那目前他也發布了因為他本來要發展自己的燃油火箭來運載但是遇到一些狀況他改為委託人家發射委託83次的次數大概耗資要多少錢"},{"start":14262.628,"end":14283.597,"text":"總共接近100次,不止83次接近100次,那大概發射市場有多大的商機?我沒有去特別注意大概看到的是100億美金吳主委知道了,現在火箭發射非常的搶手請吳主委告訴我們目前各國的發射廠大概的運用狀況"},{"start":14288.918,"end":14307.768,"text":"說台灣的還是外國的 國際上的 到底哪些發射廠的大家都到哪裡去發射低軌道的通訊衛星我想這個美國的用的非常非常多用的多用特別來舉例大概他去年就發射100算我們整個商用衛星發射市場的比例大概有沒有超過一半一半以上那第二名在哪裡"},{"start":14309.508,"end":14325.925,"text":"第二名好像是中國,中國的不是商業,商業的還有歐盟的在法國,雅利安在甘肅那裡,日本也有,那麼印度也有很多,印度的發射中心會在哪裡?"},{"start":14327.106,"end":14346.093,"text":"他在南方有不少 德里以南 對對是的 好 那麼現在呢 主委我們現在關切的是我們自從太空發展法通過之後目前成立了太空中心也積極的評估在台灣建制火箭發射廠的廠址那目前進度怎麼樣目前我們已經進到最後選址的這個 好 是不是這兩個地方"},{"start":14353.083,"end":14377.541,"text":"台東跟屏東對 台東的南田村是屏東的九旁村好 那請問選址的時候有沒有對未來火箭發射廠址它的發射量營運量做個定位譬如說你一年發射12次跟一年發射兩次這個時候你的對外連外的運輸的需求就不太一樣是不是這樣是那目前有對這個發射廠址未來5年到10年內的營運的狀況有個定位嗎"},{"start":14382.255,"end":14404.209,"text":"我們當然希望說這個廠子建好以後不是只有我們自己的需求因為我們需求量可能沒有那麼大是希望能夠也協助其他的國家能夠變成是一個產業主委說得很好其實台灣在思考的是我們不見得能夠造波音客機 造Airbus但是我們能夠造機場"},{"start":14405.51,"end":14424.055,"text":"所以任何的民航機沒有機場它就不能用但很特別的這個世界上機場很多能造民航機的不多可是火箭發射剛好相反能造火箭的不少但是適合發射火箭的像南北迴圈之間像台灣這種得天獨合的地理位置的不多"},{"start":14424.915,"end":14453.634,"text":"所以其實這些當火箭發射的需量很大的時候不只是火箭建造業蓬勃發展到處這些火箭要尋找什麼尋找可以運載火箭把衛星送到軌道的這些地方那台灣是不是一個非常南台灣是不是一個非常好的場子就它發射的角度越靠近赤道可以佈設的角度越多吳主任是不是這樣子是同意是這樣沒錯嘛所以呢台灣有沒有把自己定位在未來我們可以協助讓這些商用火箭來台灣發射"},{"start":14455.195,"end":14479.013,"text":"我們期待是往這個方向走好 那當這些商用火箭要來台灣發射的時候它一定是從國外運進來有些在國內裝配有些在國內做檢查那麼國外進來的港口可能是從高雄港但是它從高雄港入運要到這兩個基地中的其中一個可能遇到入運上的需求也有考慮過有沒有從海運上走那吳主任請幫忙協助主委"},{"start":14483.3,"end":14506.291,"text":"基本上在我們這個評估的過程這個都是有考慮在內的對 考慮未來來台灣發射的火箭有可能進入這個南台灣的火箭發射基地是透過海運的港口直接到他附近所以未來的宣紙也有可能靠近海邊嘛應該是靠近海邊嘛好 最後的結論我不要再用太多時間所以主委這邊要請你敦促我們這個"},{"start":14508.112,"end":14517.379,"text":"太空中心這邊要給它一個目標台灣的火箭發射場子不是只是用來發射科研火箭我們要對這個火箭的未來十年"},{"start":14518.937,"end":14536.343,"text":"內有沒有可能成為一個國際的熱門的供應給商用火箭發射的場子可以去做這個評估嗎是我們的確是往這個方向走好那如果有這樣的評估未來的發射量會牽涉到你整個地面地面上聯外交通設施的運載需求這個"},{"start":14538.064,"end":14548.633,"text":"也要趕快的去做規劃跟相關的主管部會去做配合協調包括了交通部等等可以嗎可以好那就謝謝主委也謝謝吳主任謝謝謝謝委員謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢主委跟官員請回座接著我們繼續進行質詢請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":14567.295,"end":14586.361,"text":"謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請國科會的吳主委請主委備質詢 謝謝賴委員好主委你好我有提AI的基本法對於你早上的回應老實講我是不滿意的"},{"start":14587.779,"end":14594.525,"text":"我覺得你國科會的主委 這些事情都在做結果主導權拿去司法部 你都點點就點點我們的主席這麼挺你 你把他搶來搶去都被搶走了這部會所長彼此之間競爭的愛這麼重要 總統這麼重視"},{"start":14613.721,"end":14623.947,"text":"你想把他搶過來 這是你地盤被地盤被人家搶走了 點點 裝傻這樣子我沒有在搶啊 我們是合作啦合作啊 主導就贏啊主導就贏啊沒關係啦沒關係喔 有要緊啦我還是你 我就睡不著了啊事情都你在做的 對不對這個東西很奇怪是不是 新郎不是你啊 是不是很奇怪"},{"start":14641.101,"end":14647.425,"text":"蛤?你是不是覺得我心裡有點欲足?要不要拿去?沒有啦沒有啦Morning Happy喔?Morning Happy也不是這樣說蛤?就是...就是...一位長官交代主委,你這樣子人家瞧不起啊沒有,我們討論的結果的確是覺得事發部因為他這樣要解釋法律事發部只要點明線而已,他要什麼?"},{"start":14666.77,"end":14679.718,"text":"不然就出國 國會我們比較欺負親人你看我們底下的國會的長官 心裡都跟我一樣都覺得替你委屈 替你憤怒你這樣很奇怪你要不要小聲一點 講一些話代表你心裡的不滿 可以嗎"},{"start":14687.841,"end":14699.904,"text":"蘇發部因為才剛成立沒有多久他一定會慢慢的會賣所以你都不敢講而且這個重要的工作全力以赴我本來要很看得起你也沒辦法我們來看你國科會做什麼這最新的資料AI發展指數全球台灣百基賽一名"},{"start":14715.54,"end":14723.003,"text":"亞洲四小龍輸給香港 輸給韓國 輸給新加坡我們亞洲四小龍最後一名你覺得第一名美國 第二名中國大陸 第三名新加坡 第四名英國 第五名法國"},{"start":14735.362,"end":14754.659,"text":"South Korea 韓國是第六名我們 第二十一名你會覺得很害羞嗎AI 發展指數你AI 你現在只要講到AI要多少錢立法院都給你的你結果是二十一名你講一些來 講一些感受"},{"start":14756.607,"end":14782.7,"text":"我們因為過去的重點都是在包含AI的晶片還有雲端伺服器的設備等等這個製造一直在投資那當然我們現在新的這個做法也把我們AI的應用也放進來所以為了要做應用我們就要當然要加緊我們的那個算力的建置算力也不夠啊也不夠所以我們加緊嘛來來來看你的資料量你國科"},{"start":14785.862,"end":14804.568,"text":"各位做一個叫Tight對不對一點都不Tight資料量不夠 算力不足你只有一個Tight LX7V只有模型沒有介面你看今天排名牌都這麼後面我問你喔CHAT的GPD你用過沒有CHAT的GPD委員我問你 CHAT的GPD有沒有用過"},{"start":14810.726,"end":14826.91,"text":"有沒有用過有用過嘛就很簡單的把它下載App一按就可以了嘛我知道所以我跟委員報告我們很快就會發布這個介面的部分國安中心很努力啦我問你你給我一個時間表什麼時候你的Tide可以像ChatGPT一樣可以讓人家按了App把它Download然後放在一個Icon什麼時候你告訴我時間表"},{"start":14841.283,"end":14861.779,"text":"來來來 很重要 這個題目很重要給我們時間表 什麼時候我們公安中心主任來來來 主任呢 說跟委員報告 目前運用現有的預算在開發之前 部件算力 然後落實主權同時我們會訓練自己的你告訴我時間 因為我時間快到時間表 時間表 什麼時候可以APP APP APPAPP APP APP 什麼時候"},{"start":14867.745,"end":14875.971,"text":"我們其實目前的部件的方式我們有API手機可以用 只是說要對全民開放對全民開放 什麼時候對 我們算是要實施部件什麼時候 什麼時候 講時間啊很難訂出一個時間表要訂時間表 來來來 你不給我時間表我就不下去了來 我問你 我問你問這個這個東西國公 官員不負責任"},{"start":14889.742,"end":14904.827,"text":"有限度的開放不是全部民眾化我想應該在一兩年內就會一兩年喔 會就發料料了來 我們來看喔派的總共下載16.7萬次兩位長官特別無助的啊"},{"start":14905.928,"end":14925.749,"text":"比如說你棒球打很好啊 你看好啊16.7萬喔 Tide Tide Tide16.7萬 Deep Seek Deep SeekApp 下載超過一億啊ChatGPT 兩億啊因為他現在使用必須要比較專業的你看喔 ChatGPT 下載App 1.6億次 Deep Seek 一億"},{"start":14928.231,"end":14929.853,"text":"我去年接任以後就希望我們的國防中心要建立這個你不能希望啊 要做給我們看啊現在正在做結果就是這樣"},{"start":14944.873,"end":14965.021,"text":"但是真正要讓全民應用一定要產業界進來不是靠政府產業界進來我們期望今年今年就會有跟產業界的合作會有一些應用可以讓全民使用我們今年年底之前所以你修正剛才主任的話主任說兩年你是今年年底可以我會督促就是今年年底各位聽好喔各位看官聽好喔聽好我們這個話是公開諮詢的喔"},{"start":14973.113,"end":14978.273,"text":"吳主委承諾年底就有Tide FF"},{"start":14979.546,"end":14996.933,"text":"給大家去用使用Tide的模型來發展出來相關應用是不是我們就可以下載是不是這樣又可以怎麼樣下載loading年底前啊年底就可以來使用是你的Pi用啊你看16.7萬次啊Chat的GBT1.6萬次1.6億次啊Deep-seq是超過1億這要花多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":15012.065,"end":15038.035,"text":"你那個騙面的啦 人家背後花多少錢你都不知道背後花多少錢 你講一下你講一下啊 你要開火車 我也給你支持啊支持A51謝謝你後來撤掉啦 沒有刪那個五億我沒有提案 這個案子不要亂栽贓亂栽贓喔有你有提案 但是後來有撤掉 謝謝你 謝謝你不然那個五億我們今年就沒有辦法啟動我們再加一個零給你咧"},{"start":15039.417,"end":15042.535,"text":"五十億啊?真的喔?可不可以縮短半年?"},{"start":15044.949,"end":15071.814,"text":"沒有啦 錢從哪裡來 沒有錢我的做法這樣啦主計處告訴我 主計長告訴我要追加錢預算你可以在這裡面給他加一個零啦好 謝謝委員我跟委員報告我們講真的啦這個一定要民間進來所以我今年會努力讓民間也進來來開發這些應用軟體那我們會把這個介面 剛剛提到介面把它建設好會跟民間好啦 你主席站起來囉"},{"start":15072.754,"end":15087.8,"text":"我再次的提醒你啦喔你來這裡不能這樣子一點企圖心也沒有 因為有這樣這樣要單退稍微看 那不可以這樣你啦 你是主委耶 這麼大的官啊因為我把自己小看 地盤窮 手窮 店窮那社區的主委我們沒理由 主委好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":15095.162,"end":15118.645,"text":"好 謝謝賴慈寶委員質詢這個主委請回座我想我們這個質詢是很正式也很認真的那我們剛剛的這個數據我們委員整理得很辛苦我們也是鼓勵希望我們的這個部會可以一起努力那我們接續進行質詢請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":15132.435,"end":15144.721,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們所有的立院同仁還有我們部會首長大家早安 大家好我們是不是請一下吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":15148.581,"end":15166.016,"text":"林委員好吳主委您好今天是本席在這個會期的第一次對國科會的一個質詢本席在這邊想要先跟您追蹤一下上個會期的質詢也順便藉這個機會有一些提醒那我這邊先就一兩個重點來跟您"},{"start":15166.897,"end":15191.978,"text":"探討一下其中一個應該主委還記得本席是原住民的身份所以我都會特別關心原住民在整個科研當中還有在國科會的相關的問題所以我一直還是很感謝您在去年一來到就職之後到本席的辦公室探討的時候我們就有講到在原住民的議題的研究上"},{"start":15192.518,"end":15207.711,"text":"那過去都只有整合型的計畫那是不是可以開放給個別型那主委在當場就因為我們行話講話所以你們也很清楚所以當場就答應給原住民的議題有個別型的研究"},{"start":15208.491,"end":15232.396,"text":"非常感謝這一點後來在執行的時候就有一個狀況發生了其實當時我這樣一個想法是希望我們在原住民議題的研究上有更大的空間但是會裡面在執行的時候我不知道是變異形式還是沒有想到所以你們在開了個別型研究的同時還是希望"},{"start":15232.876,"end":15252.382,"text":"在個別型還有整合型通通都在族群研究的架構下去做處理這個部分是不是可以請主委在今年或未來的研究上當您開放是個別型請不要再用一個主題或研究的方向把這樣一個研究的題材給限縮住那我覺得這樣對原住民"},{"start":15253.582,"end":15269.561,"text":"身份的或原住民议题的研究上可以有更宽广的空间是不是可以请主席引领一下谢谢委员的建议我了解一下但是我认为我们原住民的学者他不一定要研究原住民的主题的"},{"start":15270.261,"end":15291.162,"text":"這就是我的意思啊所以你們因為這個什麼族群關係的這個主題下那變成原住民的學者也好非原住民的學者也好在原住民的議題上都必須要研究族群關係那其實也很難再跳脫原住民這個框架的議題這是我的意思那請主委了解一下那是不是就我提的這個部分再做一些研討"},{"start":15292.863,"end":15312.602,"text":"好 謝謝另外第二個部分是我們在談到國科會的資金分配公立大學跟私立大學的一個差異我想主委那時候也很有同感因為您的背景上對私立大學也略有所知這個部分我可能再提醒一下希望在這個會期我們能夠有更往前的一些進度我們已經規劃"},{"start":15314.063,"end":15340.311,"text":"應該已經公佈了就是今年開始我們計劃申請我們會增加這個第一就是私立大學就是不會資源全部都是在國立然後我們技職體系當然原住民剛剛講的那個是沒有問題我們都按照委員的這個意思我們都擴大了所以資源就不會集中在少數的學校"},{"start":15340.751,"end":15354.639,"text":"好 謝謝 那也很高興至少這樣一個開啟那是不是請會內把相關的資訊也給我讓我再檢視一下是不是跟我們所講的這個方向是一致的好 謝謝主委那接下來呢我就接下來議題就最近的幾個議題來做討論"},{"start":15356.54,"end":15368.968,"text":"第二個部分就是中科二期擴建求證補償協商的這個爭議那當然這中間可能已經有一些過程那這個最主要就是這個新隆球場1750張的這個求證補償爭議也可能有點過久那大家集體的這個不滿"},{"start":15373.971,"end":15390.464,"text":"那在先前3月7號的時候呢又到中科院這邊去抗議那所以在這個中科院還有這個國科會的這個處理上感覺好像反映的這個整個制度的漏洞還有社會公平性的這個問題那我這邊先說明一下我關注的這個重點"},{"start":15392.225,"end":15417.846,"text":"當然在中科院管理局一直強調求證的補償是會員之間與公司之間的私權關係不屬於政府補償的範圍但是我這邊可能提醒一下當我們有國家推動比較重大的科技建設需要架構土地等等土地的取得不僅法律程序要完備"},{"start":15418.547,"end":15432.643,"text":"那對周遭民眾跟原權益人的信賴保護還有社會和諧的這個維繫我想是這件事情的一個重點那目前看起來經過好多次的協商這邊的資料是九次那協商會議中"},{"start":15433.584,"end":15447.083,"text":"好像也有所謂的口頭承諾但是這中間好像進展上很慢那興隆公司現在想要退還每一張求證14萬的保證金但是有求證的民眾對於這個"},{"start":15450.607,"end":15459.532,"text":"新農所開出來的條件跟他們的期待有很大的差異那我想要了解一下主委對這件事情在補償爭議上跟科技開發產生的社會對立的這樣一個狀況您怎麼看法"},{"start":15466.618,"end":15492.82,"text":"我們覺得這個並不能太廣泛講就是社會對立因為這個是少數的人跟那個興隆集團這邊他們在這個算是一種買賣嘛那對於這個這個他們不同意的這個金額如果想要變成是要全民來負擔這個我們並沒有依法無據啦這個對我們來講那我請我們那個中科局長也來解釋一下"},{"start":15494.207,"end":15514.554,"text":"不好意思喔 那是不是因為時間的關係我提一個重點啦主委您講的也是但是我提一個以前經常有的狀況像有一些博物館在建置的時候那常常都沒有注意到附近的民眾縱使您說是少數人可是這件事情就在於我們為了國家政策的這個開發是 我們絕對照顧民眾權益"},{"start":15518.276,"end":15545.215,"text":"對 產生的這個影響然後也一定因為有一點時間所以這個部分是不是可以再更積極的作為然後當然您說沒有這個社會正義公義或社會對立的這個問題但是少部分人有這樣子的狀況然後期待跟能夠做的有一些落差那是不是會裡面也可以再更積極的做一些處理我們不敢說介入啦但是積極的處理讓大家的共識能夠稍微再更近一點是不是有這個"},{"start":15545.996,"end":15559.153,"text":"可能性跟機會那對於那個背景我們大概都有一些了解啦那感謝那個中科這邊可能要做一個解釋只是時間的關係是不是請惠里再多加一些言議呢然後能夠減少這樣一個問題好"},{"start":15561.613,"end":15573.076,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝主委那我相信接下來最後一個就是大家也都非常關心那整個台積電赴美以後的狀況各方論述都有那這邊我們當然背景我這邊簡單介紹一下台積電雖然在台灣目前還有11條生產線的這個選址那當然也都還在推動"},{"start":15581.118,"end":15601.991,"text":"那第二個部分是他們也談到雖然您剛才有一些論述那AI產業鏈擴張的產業佈局所以也有部分需要在海外投資但是海外投資的動向跟國內產業鏈的一個穩定性也是我們整個國家經濟命脈跟產業安全的重要議題所以這邊我其實要討論的是"},{"start":15604.492,"end":15615.734,"text":"對於政府是不是有足夠的產業前瞻視野然後跟我們現在直接已經有碰到的土地資源調度的能力來承接這一波關鍵投資的這個機會您的看法呢"},{"start":15616.314,"end":15639.875,"text":"我們的確是有信心也很努力在做這個事情所以我覺得台積電不管是在台灣持續發展將來碰到這個寶盒的時候舊廠一定會翻新變成未來的新廠所以這個循環使用因為我們人力資源都有限將來它如果持續成長一定會往海外擴展這個也是必然的事實政府都會來協助"},{"start":15641.601,"end":15661.206,"text":"那我再提醒一點就是說你們經常在講說那這樣子的議題像科學園區的擴建跟產業用地的這個問題其實還是有某一種程度的被動跟分散所以當南科屏東園區跟農壇在規劃的時候那這個部分呢你們常常都等待地方政府提案"},{"start":15661.966,"end":15689.21,"text":"有沒有可能再更積極一點來處理呢也不是等待地方政府地方政府也可以主動來規劃來選合適的地方對他們施政容易的但是我們重點就是我們的科技產業的發展也要適合所以我們的這個科學園區的這個選址一定會基於產業的需求這是第一個要件產業需求他覺得這塊地符合的話"},{"start":15689.75,"end":15712.785,"text":"那中央政府各部會搭配的地方政府就共同來推動這樣好的 那您談到這個核心問題所以我這邊做一個提醒我們希望這個建制產業園區的時候雖然您說也會考慮到很多個面向但是我希望不要因為政黨的色彩來決定選址的一個允諾好嗎不會 所以我們現在台中這個園區還有農產我們同步在進行當中謝謝"},{"start":15719.509,"end":15726.432,"text":"謝謝林建錡委員的質詢時間的關係我想請主委可以在書面予以回覆謝謝主委 謝謝大家"},{"start":15731.55,"end":15759.19,"text":"主委請回座謝謝接下來我們繼續質詢的話是請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員羅明財委員不在好那我想我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢關於今天會議所做的如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":15760.272,"end":15772.594,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分也請相關機關盡速與書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":15787.627,"end":15788.188,"text":"薄荷花"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}