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協助檢視重大計畫加速審議確保目標一 穩健推動區域平衡促進跨部會協助以全面盤點並持續協助各機關合理檢視重大計畫推動期程"},{"start":2171.766,"end":2199.067,"text":"適時協調各機關可行性研究建設計畫相關法規及行政規定所需提送之審查資料所遭遇的跨部會協商課題此外也提醒機關可評估分期分階段巡視啟動計畫有效分擔風險與資源配置促進區域發展之平衡性及可持續性而加速各項審議"},{"start":2200.988,"end":2222.144,"text":"作業,確保目標與規劃契合,為加速計畫協審與基本設計審議,持續檢視各重大建設計畫送審事項,確保內容符合核心理念及定位建造標準,並與當地發展契合,幫助機關充分運用規劃設計團隊之專業等。"},{"start":2225.233,"end":2252.948,"text":"以加速相關審議並確保發展目標且提供應注意事項三 急報急審協助地方復建工程包括統籌各部會辦理審議及早展開地方復建工作行政院會協助地方政府加速辦理公共設施災後復建工程一 中央對地方中央對各級地方政府重大天然災害"},{"start":2254.384,"end":2276.002,"text":"救災經費處理辦法規定 交由本會統籌相關部會辦理縣市政府申請復建經費補助之審議作業 本會採取急報急審方式辦理 並請地方政府考量輕重緩急就具時效性工程先行提報各中央主管機關應急動員前往勘查縮短審議作業時程 第二主動"},{"start":2280.885,"end":2296.843,"text":"提前安排縣勘加速地方工程重建規劃為提供地方政府最大協助將視受災情形嚴重性與影響性本會主動規劃縣地勘察足加速地方政府災害"},{"start":2298.024,"end":2323.577,"text":"復建工程提報程序外並提供復建策略經費需求採購方式等建立與溝通平台確實協助地方政府及早完成復建工程第二配合2050淨零轉型促進公共建設淨零轉型包括推動公共工程節能減碳作為一以推動公共工程定性減碳工程會於111年8月31日發布"},{"start":2328.049,"end":2354.064,"text":"公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項提醒工程主管機關與工程全生命週期納入節能減碳觀念及做法並透過減核方式促使工程計畫落實各階段節能減碳作為降低工程碳排放量第二 建立減碳參考指引與工具有序推動公共工程節能減碳依工程主要列行"},{"start":2354.904,"end":2369.859,"text":"及特性持續推動中央部位訂定減碳座位參考指引持續收集各機關與取得之工程產品減碳排放係數建立碳排基準並完善共同"},{"start":2371.124,"end":2395.776,"text":"供應企業平台增加碳排碳足跡欄位短期由訂約機關與共同供應企業上架時請各品項產品之得標廠商自主性提供碳排數據預計114年上半年上限長期則以本會重建之碳排強度資料庫借鑑有助機關選擇低碳產品"},{"start":2398.081,"end":2419.935,"text":"三強化公共工程管理確保施工品質及安全包括工程查核精準選案精進精質獎規定一工程查核精準選案提升施工品質導入查核精準選案原則一工程施工查核小組追辦法第四條第三項規定以民眾檢舉媒體報導決標"},{"start":2424.21,"end":2443.888,"text":"標價偏低 進度明顯落後大幅變更契約等工程為優先查核對象並針對相關工程2億元以上加強查核另為確保偏遠地區公共工程品質 議會加強查核第二施工品質穩定提升113年1月至12月全國計查核4458件工程"},{"start":2448.732,"end":2469.946,"text":"查核比例為11.91%全國查核成績列甲等以上比例為81.13%較112年度甲等以上比例78.89%提升2.24%整體公共工程施工品質持續穩定提升第二 精進金職獎規定確保施工品質"},{"start":2470.986,"end":2495.317,"text":"為激勵全國公共工程施工團隊並確保施工品質可嚴厲提高金職獎案件查核頻率擴大獎勵得獎廠商採購評選加分之規模集聚範圍並要求量化數據資料以展現參選案件之檢探與立法具體成效第二加速公共建設推動主動協助困難問題"},{"start":2497.031,"end":2516.049,"text":"第一掌握公建計畫執行進度113年度列管公建計畫經費達成率達93%以上113年7月18日修正行政院公共工程委員會公共建設督導匯報設置及作業要點就年計畫經費達1億元以上且"},{"start":2519.969,"end":2532.018,"text":"且據工程內涵之公共建設計畫納入督導匯報列管列管之內容包含一般公共建設計畫以及前瞻基礎建設公共建設類計畫列管經費約6,325億元結設113年12月底經費達成率93.81%而加速工建推動持續督導管控本會盤點114年度列管計畫共計323項"},{"start":2548.59,"end":2564.904,"text":"立管經費約七千四百七十三億元其中包含一般公共建設計畫以及前三基礎建設公共建設列計畫將以督導匯報持續管控要求各部會確實以核定里程碑辦理第二加強主動"},{"start":2566.645,"end":2588.086,"text":"協助困難問題 每月召開督導會報依全生命週期部會計畫工程標案足及管控並每月召開公共建設督導會報協調解決跨部會問題並不定期由主委副主委率隊實地查訪即時發現問題解決問題第二 限地查訪提供建立113年度已辦理36次計畫查訪"},{"start":2591.519,"end":2618.353,"text":"例如淘機第三航站區淘機第三跑道淡江大橋及其聯絡道路離島地區供水改善計畫第二期第三座液化天然氣接收站投資計畫等採走動勢管理模式及時提供建立協助解決問題另114年以排列三頁查訪第三座液化天然氣接收站投資計畫及大潭電廠增建燃氣副循環機組發電計畫"},{"start":2621.354,"end":2636.162,"text":"了解整體計畫執行狀況及確保國內整體供氣穩定及安全事業查訪台中市福田水資源中心放流水回收再利用統包工程含營運維護掌握再生水供應工業區"},{"start":2637.743,"end":2657.198,"text":"補充產業用水缺口及穩定產業發展情形第三加速停工終解約工程復工或重新發包以強化公共工程標案停工解約之管理機制就進度落後停工解約案件每月通報主管機關加強管控並針對"},{"start":2658.96,"end":2669.941,"text":"為執行金額較大之案件定期召開會議協助排除困難113年截至10月底具有2168件工程復工或重新發包"},{"start":2671.292,"end":2695.62,"text":"使代執行金額668.5億元重新投入市場活絡經濟近期於114年2月18日召開協處32案是督促機關依約加速付款113年度截至12月底由廠商主動通報金本會列管案件32件其中以付款結案31件"},{"start":2697.361,"end":2721.654,"text":"金額1.93億元主動篩選案件已有151件完成付款付款金額12.66億元第三促使廠商重視公共工程職安作為一與勞動檢查機構建立橫向聯繫機制施工查核結果涉及工地職安有重大缺失者由工程施工查核小組通知當地所屬勞動檢查機構作為勞動檢查之重點對象"},{"start":2725.296,"end":2747.816,"text":"以避免職安缺失重複發生二加強查核有墜落風險案件運用本會公共工程雲端服務網之廠商履歷功能篩選具有墜落之餘或勞動檢查有墜落嚴重缺失之施工廠商或監照單位工程案件辦理查核第三職業安全納入金職獎推薦基準與評審標準"},{"start":2750.498,"end":2774.246,"text":"金職獎嚴審推薦參選案件之職業安全辦理情形如有發生死亡、職災或離災住院人數達3人以上不得推薦或因與扣分令你得獎工程完工前或設施維護完成前發生死亡、職災將取消該屆金職獎之優惠且次屆不得推薦參加金職獎"},{"start":2776.067,"end":2791.638,"text":"第四 持續辦理職安教育訓練提升工程相關從業人員對職安危害之預防觀念每年針對初任工職人員土木工程列科辦理教育訓練邀請勞動部講授職安相關法規"},{"start":2795.301,"end":2809.263,"text":"觀念案例等強化課題114年度亦持續辦理第四 嚴體政府採購法修正草案 精進政府採購制度一推動採購法修正草案及契約範本條款合理化"},{"start":2810.37,"end":2829.741,"text":"第一 嚴體採購法修正查案 徵求各界意見 為精進政府採購之執行 提升採購效力113年9月4日 含送精進政府採購法之意見徵詢表 致各機關廣泛收集意見以完成彙整各界意見 擬計採購法修正查案 預計114年4月辦理預告作業"},{"start":2834.764,"end":2840.348,"text":"第二修正各類採購企業範本帶動企業加薪113年12月26日修正各類採購企業範本將派駐勞工及全職從事採購人員資薪資調升為因高於最低工資1.1倍透過範本"},{"start":2855.437,"end":2871.87,"text":"調整帶動企業加薪促使廠商主動提高勞工薪資第二優化履歷制度挑選優良廠商建立施工廠商履歷強化管理與監督持續收集"},{"start":2872.691,"end":2899.397,"text":"分析各機關執行公共工程資料建置完整公共工程廠商履歷內容涵蓋承攬紀錄施工品質重大職災及受停權紀錄等目前已累積超過1.4萬家施工廠商履歷並開放機關查詢應用以促使廠商提升自主管理確保公共工程品質第二 擴大履歷制度納入工程"},{"start":2900.497,"end":2925.196,"text":"參與人員建立公共工程參與人員履歷將履歷制度進一步延伸到工程參與人員載有其參與紀錄施工品質重大職責及懲戒紀錄等目前已累計超過16萬筆資料並開放機關查詢希望藉此提升人員專業度與責任意識確保施工品質與安全三 應用履歷資料"},{"start":2926.237,"end":2954.025,"text":"以立機關選拔優良廠商與人員為提高履歷資料應用價值於111年8月18日發布公共工程施工廠商及人員履歷應用於政府採購作業參考手冊提供具體範例協助各機關在採購選商履歷管理及施工差額時更有效篩選優良廠商與工程人員確保公共工程品質與效能"},{"start":2954.625,"end":2963.911,"text":"第三加速推動電子化政府採購政府採購公告電子化落實採購公開及透明依採購法規定機關辦理採購招標之相關公告應公開於政府電子採購法113年度公告機關招標決標資訊45.4萬餘筆落實採購公開透明第二推動電子領標減省廠商領標成本"},{"start":2984.473,"end":2990.041,"text":"113年機關提供電子招標文件之案件計23.7萬餘件電子領標比例達99.68%減輕廠商往返機關領標之人力與時間成本將持續"},{"start":2999.614,"end":3017.948,"text":"朝全面電子化邁進三 加速推動電子投標增進採購效力為令廠商熟悉電子投標之作業先就資格及規格單純之未達公告金額財務採購持續推動簡易電子報價機制後續擴大試用工程採購並每年訂定目標達成力"},{"start":3027.108,"end":3036.112,"text":"113年度財務及工程採購諮詢率分別為57.4%及25.2%均達目標值50%及12%將持續強化電子投標之便利性及信賴度增進採購效力第五強化諮詢機制提升政府採購爭議處理效力一強化採購諮詢化解契約條款認知歧義"},{"start":3055.48,"end":3071.292,"text":"機關與廠商於採購執行過程堂有採購法執行疑義或對採購契約有認知其意案情單純或有前例者本會即使以書面方式提供意見案情交付長須召開會議協處者截至114年1月底以召開諮詢會議協處案件計126件約七成三採納本會之意見與雙方續行協議第二"},{"start":3083.421,"end":3110.663,"text":"調解案件處理效能再提升持續管控理業正義調解案件辦理情形落實採購契約修正或集合監督回饋機制且透過精進調解案件處理作業流程以加速案件之處理以提升處理效率充分發揮調解功能109年到113年本會調解成立率約八成"},{"start":3112.031,"end":3132.924,"text":"三 公共工程建設與民眾福祉密切相關並且是國家經濟發展的核心動力本會始終致力於協助各機關解決在公共工程推動過程中遇到的困難與障礙確保公共工程順利進行品質持續提升"},{"start":3133.784,"end":3160.026,"text":"並加速推進區域平衡發展這一目標一直是本會不懈追求的方向儘管面臨各種挑戰與考驗本會依然保持謹慎與堅定持續國家利益與民眾福祉為根本持續與相關部會密切合作推動公共建設的進行轉型並致力於維護人本優質永續的生活環境我們將全力以赴"},{"start":3160.746,"end":3183.299,"text":"加速公共建設的推動以國家經濟發展注入持續動能 以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們主委好 接下來我來補充介紹我們本會的委員我們陳雪生委員我們洪孟楷委員"},{"start":3185.575,"end":3205.732,"text":"好 現在我們進行議事錄的確定因為剛才那個議事人員已經朗讀完畢請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見我們的議事錄就確定好 現在我們進行詢問先告以上事項"},{"start":3208.827,"end":3234.255,"text":"1 巡打時間出席委員6加2分鐘內席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記在10點30分截止各位委員如有臨時提案請於10點鐘以前提出以便我們議事人員會診"},{"start":3237.905,"end":3252.956,"text":"4暫停10點30分休息10分鐘5中午原則性不休息現在請登記第一號的洪孟凱委員現在進行審打主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委"},{"start":3267.274,"end":3291.398,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛 這你同意嗎那所以說公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字 你也同意嗎"},{"start":3292.706,"end":3307.367,"text":"好來麥克風可以打開好不好沒錯好那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道"},{"start":3308.268,"end":3334.025,"text":"主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可"},{"start":3334.705,"end":3349.361,"text":"COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎"},{"start":3350.359,"end":3365.072,"text":"解動換我們要執行預算30%以後那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是"},{"start":3365.672,"end":3390.069,"text":"我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢"},{"start":3391.369,"end":3406.921,"text":"將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用"},{"start":3407.401,"end":3434.677,"text":"五千萬這個包括公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意"},{"start":3435.177,"end":3460.062,"text":"有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我先解凍50%諸位你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減的1000多萬啊但你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實諸位"},{"start":3462.662,"end":3481.551,"text":"不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論"},{"start":3482.771,"end":3507.473,"text":"我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的"},{"start":3508.814,"end":3525.166,"text":"但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送"},{"start":3526.624,"end":3555.052,"text":"什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委"},{"start":3555.984,"end":3568.963,"text":"不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來"},{"start":3570.305,"end":3597.967,"text":"主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委"},{"start":3600.031,"end":3620.56,"text":"李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委"},{"start":3625.236,"end":3639.209,"text":"法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚"},{"start":3644.949,"end":3671.541,"text":"程序上的解凍主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非目無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度對吧"},{"start":3674.164,"end":3687.069,"text":"我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明"},{"start":3688.675,"end":3710.231,"text":"行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬"},{"start":3711.843,"end":3735.676,"text":"這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕 歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙 主委我再請教 去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻"},{"start":3737.404,"end":3762.891,"text":"這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延"},{"start":3763.171,"end":3783,"text":"但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中禮之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制"},{"start":3783.9,"end":3792.852,"text":"不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面"},{"start":3793.967,"end":3814.082,"text":"現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開照標這是我們準備預告的草案內容"},{"start":3814.682,"end":3837.502,"text":"好 那防幣機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防幣機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防幣的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防幣機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後"},{"start":3838.544,"end":3855.833,"text":"我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐"},{"start":3857.254,"end":3879.414,"text":"114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂立節能減碳的減核機制跟目標"},{"start":3880.815,"end":3902.787,"text":"請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考"},{"start":3904.688,"end":3912.524,"text":"過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中"},{"start":3914.16,"end":3942.025,"text":"那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在"},{"start":3943.565,"end":3968.416,"text":"從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強的空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準檢核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到檢探的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到"},{"start":3969.276,"end":3990.139,"text":"有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考核"},{"start":3991.42,"end":4012.054,"text":"那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準檢探的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要"},{"start":4012.774,"end":4036.219,"text":"建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準給各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關"},{"start":4038.464,"end":4059.014,"text":"主委 本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委"},{"start":4060.063,"end":4087.242,"text":"本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行"},{"start":4088.503,"end":4115.063,"text":"國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標"},{"start":4116.044,"end":4144.092,"text":"包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結果不同"},{"start":4145.692,"end":4168.152,"text":"所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築"},{"start":4169.012,"end":4189.028,"text":"別的國家做得到你現在2025年 十多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委 這樣子你完全忽略跟羅國公不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳"},{"start":4190.907,"end":4218.462,"text":"主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人"},{"start":4219.142,"end":4235.568,"text":"國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹"},{"start":4237.064,"end":4251.669,"text":"我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘"},{"start":4253.86,"end":4282.177,"text":"其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯但它終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備詢官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝現在請林國成召委發言"},{"start":4289.475,"end":4310.121,"text":"主席請我們陳主委請陳主委委員長好主委其實這會期我當召委我說實在啦我們要往前走因為我們"},{"start":4311.89,"end":4334.271,"text":"執政是四年所以針對問題我還是真的給主委一個非常尊敬的建議就是針對問題我們來解決問題當然立法委員有他的見解我們習耳恭聽帶回去我們去做一個研究但是我說實在連我本席"},{"start":4334.791,"end":4358.228,"text":"以我對交通委員會所有委員的感覺不分黨派是針對問題解決問題我相信主委也審查預算過你也是老立法委員那大家都了解立法院其實是對事不是對人所以這點我給主委一個建議來"},{"start":4360.458,"end":4385.325,"text":"另外大家主委你很知道不管是吳主委或你我都非常重視員工的薪資問題這個我們已經有處理但是在這裡我還是要跟主委建議就是因為當然這是行政院裡面訂定的公共工程最低工資不能低於1.1倍這個問題"},{"start":4387.301,"end":4401.767,"text":"但是那個時代轉變不一樣這個薪資如果你一點一倍這個是最低標準最低要求啦但是我一向主張我也一向非常尊重我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":4403.069,"end":4422.005,"text":"不要我同意剛才孟愷所講公共工程委員會不能做小應該他有很多的技術面很多的政策面都是要我們公共工程委員會來制定所以這個一點一倍我建議主委"},{"start":4422.665,"end":4439.418,"text":"研擬一下跟兩位副主委兩位副主委都寫法例的研擬一下有沒有可能把他提升因為這個薪資如果照這樣去算起來是太低的這個我是給主委一個"},{"start":4440.986,"end":4463.285,"text":"這個良心的建議因為這個薪資低說實在也是非常困難去突破唯一只有我們公共工程委員會統一制定它的低標準把它拉高自然薪資就會拉高所以這個我要良心的建議我們主委在這個部分"},{"start":4464.586,"end":4481.403,"text":"認真去考慮一下還有一點就是你都用鼓勵加分的方式啦其實自動置花的這些雇主啊或公共工程的這些廠商啊他不會用加分他就可以得到是要用"},{"start":4482.384,"end":4510.091,"text":"公共工程委員會的硬性規定讓他把低薪把他拉高這個對公共工程所屬的勞工啊是有幫助的這一點我這點我特別跟主委啊建議啊這個部分要較為認真的去思考那當然也要顧慮到其他的法規啦那但是有很多法規在主委可以"},{"start":4510.931,"end":4526.939,"text":"研擬的當中資方也可以接受然後勞方這裡也覺得你照顧那另外政府也覺得這個部分是有必要去做因為我在想"},{"start":4527.839,"end":4550.694,"text":"民進黨執政已經九年他對於勞工的權益跟勞工的薪資非常在意的這我知道是非常在意這點對就對不對就不對他確實對於基本薪資的調整確實是蠻重視的這個問題所以我要拜託陳主委在這個部分我還是請你"},{"start":4552.055,"end":4575.983,"text":"責成你的兩位副主委我們來研究一下有沒有可能1.1把它拉到1.5以上這樣的話可能它的低薪的問題自然就會拉高因為你的最低標準是這樣嘛但是你把最低標準把它拉高以後自然而然調薪的機率就會大增這點我要拜託我們工程會這裡啊"},{"start":4576.983,"end":4582.47,"text":"要幫全國廣大的勞工去做這些事那吉利來下一張"},{"start":4584.025,"end":4612.919,"text":"像這些像這些什麼應安會的調查員啊 蘇發部的工程員啊氣象這些分析 我說實在你訂那個薪資是太低了太低了因為他的專業專業是不一樣的所以你一概而論去對這些人是不公平的這個我是就事論事啊 特別給主委做一個建議那另外"},{"start":4614.195,"end":4631.115,"text":"我也每一次我都跟你提公安的問題啊當然公安的主責組織單位是勞動部但是你是監督單位喔你發現問題你要去制定這整個規範要做到什麼應該是要跟勞動部"},{"start":4632.576,"end":4658.745,"text":"跟勞工部這個監督這個執行的單位要有聯繫所以在這個部分特別這幾年下來確實是有進步但是我還是要拜託我們主委在這個部分確確實實你還是要用一點心把這個勞工的生命財產安全去把它做得更嚴謹這對勞工才會有幫助"},{"start":4661.326,"end":4681.188,"text":"那最後啊我還是特別要拜託主委啦因為下一張我要拜託主委就剛才孟愷委員他所講的解凍的問題啊我也知道解凍有兩種一種是委員會解一種是宴會解"},{"start":4682.031,"end":4701.759,"text":"但是我私底下你來看我我還是給你一個建議啊我說先送委員會因為我們委員會只有15個人據我了解我來參加交通委員會我跟你講我們這個交通委員會不分黨派大家都一團合聚針對問題來解決那有什麼困難在委員會講"},{"start":4706.101,"end":4733.699,"text":"那有必要到宴會去結委員會先結送到大會備案來結這是對我們案子是有幫助的所以都不要去爭論事實有些確實是在宴會來做解凍有些是在我們委員會去做解凍所以主委我說實在啦我還是希望我還是希望我到任何一個地方我也知道"},{"start":4735.041,"end":4748.835,"text":"這個金職獎這個部分是大家都重視啊包括我們所有委員各黨各派我們都認為這有必要啊那你們做的最好的也是這個金職獎的部分啊當然不能停頓啊那如何去解決"},{"start":4750.485,"end":4773.718,"text":"當然就是主委你這裡特別特別要用一點技術性的東西我比較建議送到委員會委員會審了以後呈給大會我跟你講反對的機會不會很大所以主委這個我特別啊給你一個建議啦那當然因為我也知道說實在的最近啊這個這個"},{"start":4777.351,"end":4793.997,"text":"這個謠言滿天輝啦好 謠言下一張來謠言滿天輝啦但是真的 主委以我了解你的處事原則我不希望你跟這些你跟這些謠言去起舞不需要因為你要做事"},{"start":4795.834,"end":4823.714,"text":"你曾經的主委就是公共工程委員會的主委我就是把所有的問題解決這是最重要所以我今天說實在第一個重視薪資的問題第二個重視公安的問題另外這個我是給你一個良心的建議用這種方式很快就可以解決因為我們要解決問題不要跟這些啊那個那個捕風捉影啊 造謠一大堆我們解決問題最重要嘛"},{"start":4825.535,"end":4847.883,"text":"因為我們要繼續前進下去所以主委我還是良心建議啊也就是這個這個獎項當然一定要辦啊但是我是覺得沒有必要這些民間團體當然也不是你授意啦我在看是他們心裡面緊張啊但是我認為對執政黨負責"},{"start":4851.974,"end":4862.317,"text":"無可獲悔但是不能跟造謠這些啊來做對主委以上這三點我還是給你一個良心建議好不好好謝謝好謝謝主委來接下來我們請李坤澤委員執行"},{"start":4888.076,"end":4891.984,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 請一下陳金的主委好 主委請"},{"start":4898.362,"end":4926.485,"text":"委員長主委長那其實看到今天開會的過程那我們都是尊重各個委員的發言的權利及相關的內容不過還是有一些議事的程序我想曾經的主委也算是我在立法院的學長也是我國大代表時期的學長那對於相關的議事程序也應該都清楚那其實我們在過去很少會碰到說幾乎"},{"start":4928.306,"end":4950.314,"text":"是沒有碰過說預算可以先執行30%你不夠再來說或者是要院會來解凍這樣的一個流程其實在以前都是沒有碰過的這個當然立法院的生態以及議事程序的變化也真的有時候讓人家非常的錯愕那我先請教一下主委我們的橋樑是"},{"start":4954.124,"end":4974.825,"text":"很重要的一個交通的動脈跟基礎設施那因為我們台灣的天災地震極端氣候的衝擊我們對於這些相關橋仰的結構安全因為它攸關到民眾的生命財產安全的一個基本的保障所以橋仰的維護管理"},{"start":4975.746,"end":5001.123,"text":"是一個很重要的議題那在2月26日工程會有抽查全國的橋樑300座裡面有35座的橋樑是達到U4的等級U4的等級就是說它必須要進行立刻要進行養護而且它是預期未修的這個階段那其中中央部會圍管了有3座"},{"start":5001.883,"end":5006.828,"text":"那地方政府圍管的有32座我要請教主委我們針對這35座橋樑他達到優勢的等級我們工程會會去邀請他進行相關的如何的一個補強的計畫來主委說明一下"},{"start":5019.78,"end":5035.793,"text":"報告委員優勢就是最緊急啦要立即處理啦所以工程會會要求橋樑的主管機關或者是維護機關立即透過工程的方法或相關的方法去改善"},{"start":5036.934,"end":5059.386,"text":"那因為橋樑的維護有他的維護主管機關上級也能夠去抽查他嘛所以工程會大概就是抽查不是每一座去查那300座這個是透過系統去盤點出來的然後分門別列U1 U2 U3 U4那會要求主管機關就U4的部分立即要來改善有沒有補強計畫這些補強計畫什麼時候會完成簡單說明一下"},{"start":5063.344,"end":5083.755,"text":"我們就要求這個相關的主管機關那麼針對優勢等級的那必須立即提出計畫那必要的時候工程會會去做審議他這個計畫這個必須要立即要讓民眾看到我們對於這些有必須立即維護管理有潛在立即會發生危險的橋樑"},{"start":5085.276,"end":5093.741,"text":"那另外就是說有32座的地方政府所轄管的這些橋樑我們如何去督促他做維護管理"},{"start":5095.512,"end":5118.524,"text":"因為橋樑他有主管機關嘛不管是交通法規的或內政法規的他還是有上級中央主管機關我們要求內政部或交通部公路局等要求地方政府去改善那這個橋樑呢那當然我們也可以去督導了基本上我請他的主管機關去要求地方政府按照等級去做必要的改善"},{"start":5118.764,"end":5135.942,"text":"這個都必須要加強我們的一個都管的一個能力這個都必須橋樑關係到人民的這種生命財產的安全我對於高齡的這些橋樑主委我們更進一步來探討全國的橋樑總共有26432座"},{"start":5141.442,"end":5146.409,"text":"然後有22963座它是車型的這種橋樑30年以上的橋樑有8523座裡面還有6552座它年份不明就是"},{"start":5158.855,"end":5185.278,"text":"裡面的這些橋樑有超過一半他是地方委管的他的相關的這些資料也不夠齊全他的年份也不明那我們現在每年只能查核300座量能啊大概只有現在橋樑總數的1.1%而已那如果我們的這些26432座橋樑要全部盤查大概要花70年以上了"},{"start":5186.175,"end":5210.803,"text":"那如果只盤查30年以上的也要30年能量啊 量能是明顯的不足啊主委我們看到在抽查的這段期間其實這些橋仰它還是持續的老化那它的這些危害的風險啊災害的風險它也每天都在提高那工程會對這個橋仰安全有沒有更具體的政策"},{"start":5211.523,"end":5233.271,"text":"依法這個橋樑的維護主管機關他必須兩年就要去去查一次啦那我們會按照這樣的標準要求相關機關確實務必兩年要查核一次所以不會只有抽查300座而已300座我們是盤點出來所以因為他每座橋都主管機關工程會確實"},{"start":5234.591,"end":5257.028,"text":"那麼來要求相關的機關每兩年查核一次這件事情我相信這樣子兩萬多座就不會那麼久花那麼久他每個機關的兩年都去查一次那資料我們都會納管這個很重要就是相關的除了這些抽查或是兩年定期的這種檢查的這個制度必須要去加強落實"},{"start":5257.808,"end":5278.876,"text":"那我們現在來談一下強化橋樑的這些圍管的機制那我們目前全國的橋樑管理的這個系統每年3月跟9月都會通知各機關轄下的橋樑的管理狀態同步要通知工程會來含穩各圍管機關這個程序沒有錯吧"},{"start":5279.836,"end":5293.789,"text":"另外我的具體的建議我是認為工程會應該跟交通部運營所還有各縣市政府來協助就是說我們要依照橋樑的風險程度使用的連線"},{"start":5295.05,"end":5316.097,"text":"構造的形式地理的位置還有交通的流量以及既有結構的這些評估等等的項目必須要明列出來我們要建立跨機關共用分級及養護的追蹤機制來建立這些養護的履歷這個是一個很重要因為目前各委管單位"},{"start":5316.957,"end":5336.583,"text":"有養護履歷但是沒有互相的這種互通這是一個機制目前很明顯的一個缺陷那另外我們工程會也要領頭來建立分級查核小組以及查核的程序也要擴大這種新興的檢測的技術還有智慧的管理的應用"},{"start":5337.663,"end":5358.835,"text":"例如說引用空拍機及AI的影像辨識科技及大數據風險的這種預測的模型來篩選高風險的橋樑來做改善也要結合無人機檢測的新興科技手段來提高巡查的效率以及預警的一個準確度來讓主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":5359.875,"end":5376.707,"text":"謝謝委員這麼關心這個危險橋樑的維管我想我們會精進我們要求所有的橋樑危險這個機關如果兩年查核一次那麼他的data他的數據一定要報到工程會那工程會希望能夠建置一個全國這麼多橋樑來分級"},{"start":5379.329,"end":5391.719,"text":"那每兩年前才試的這個數據啊我們也請專家幫我們篩選或建立一個指標什麼樣的指標表示這個橋樑已經有風險了就像剛才U1 U2 U3 U4更"},{"start":5395.982,"end":5417.987,"text":"更比較說結構啦或者是相關的指標建立出來然後主動要求這個維護主管機關去做改善而不會被動由主管機關就檢測那資料都沒有彙整在一起我想我們可以做的是把這些檢測的資料整個彙整起來來分級來納管好 主委橋樑"},{"start":5419.767,"end":5447.912,"text":"本席一開始就提到它是最重要的一個交通的動脈以及基礎設施那關係到民眾的這樣的一個生命財產安全的基本保障的這樣一個嚴肅的議題那我們對於相關橋樑的巡查檢測以及相互的維護管理相關的提升安全的這種機制的推動也是主委跟工程會一個重要的工作我們必須來加強以上"},{"start":5452.145,"end":5469.111,"text":"好謝謝我們李坤哲委員好現在接下來何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員他走過來嗎沒有嗎好"},{"start":5491.754,"end":5507.738,"text":"現在我們請何新淳委員詢答沒有啦 現在前一問題 有人提前一問題所以必須要處理好 謝謝喔 謝謝超委那我們請我們陳靜的主委"},{"start":5510.438,"end":5510.718,"text":"恩主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":5520.171,"end":5528.459,"text":"不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一"},{"start":5542.253,"end":5556.067,"text":"那賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢"},{"start":5562.173,"end":5589.526,"text":"目標就算是零碳 但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話 我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事 在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子"},{"start":5591.038,"end":5616.845,"text":"以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在的大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們"},{"start":5618.578,"end":5631.515,"text":"以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個"},{"start":5633.658,"end":5649.886,"text":"我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克"},{"start":5652.347,"end":5671.092,"text":"那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳"},{"start":5678.334,"end":5703.409,"text":"那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹"},{"start":5704.77,"end":5715.695,"text":"可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟"},{"start":5722.017,"end":5743.675,"text":"署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的"},{"start":5748.419,"end":5752.16,"text":"那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說譬如說"},{"start":5778.342,"end":5800.247,"text":"教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢"},{"start":5802.491,"end":5826.699,"text":"這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委"},{"start":5828.055,"end":5847.373,"text":"非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳是啊就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛當然那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的"},{"start":5848.174,"end":5872.763,"text":"成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究"},{"start":5873.283,"end":5884.934,"text":"因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產財第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來"},{"start":5889.819,"end":5917.191,"text":"越發展 第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有有數字有效率的 對不對 主委"},{"start":5918.615,"end":5938.938,"text":"就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面"},{"start":5939.498,"end":5961.614,"text":"也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李崑哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要"},{"start":5965.957,"end":5980.378,"text":"馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你"},{"start":5982.861,"end":6004.715,"text":"給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫"},{"start":6005.916,"end":6023.03,"text":"他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對金數是多少 多久"},{"start":6027.62,"end":6038.031,"text":"這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼"},{"start":6040.342,"end":6058.089,"text":"跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供"},{"start":6058.809,"end":6073.067,"text":"有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫啊那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在都還沒有收到相關的回文囉"},{"start":6074.744,"end":6087.4,"text":"工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說那中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都"},{"start":6091.765,"end":6109.838,"text":"跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們"},{"start":6110.958,"end":6139.224,"text":"還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果"},{"start":6140.678,"end":6142.279,"text":"現在我們請魯明哲委員執行現在好好現在請魯委員"},{"start":6182.967,"end":6206.053,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長 陳主委這個再跟你確認一下 理性確認一下 我們那個金子獎的問題你們是主計還是會計這個金子獎在公共工程的一個管理業務這個"},{"start":6211.341,"end":6228.661,"text":"這公共工程管理業務的項下裡面的一個內容裡面可能有十幾二十個五十個內容總共編排多少我來跟委員報告啦我目前被刪除的一個媒介費用220萬是只針對公共工程在查核的時候做記錄然後辦理金職獎"},{"start":6231.344,"end":6247.379,"text":"這項業務220萬可能被誤殺了啦就是說我們不是做其他媒體宣傳只是做金職獎這件事情而已220萬完全刪除所以這樣子我們沒辦法去去做宣傳做廣告或替得獎的人做一些記錄所以這個金職獎因為這220萬會失損你那3589萬刪除多少來另外不是"},{"start":6253.645,"end":6274.322,"text":"凍結的是凍結50%我知道嘛3589萬你們是在這個公共工程管理業務這個科目我們先講科目嘛會計的科目沒有一個科目叫做金子獎啦他的科目就是公共工程管理業務這一個科目裡面你們要做很多事其中有一些是金子獎請問一下3589萬刪除多少"},{"start":6281.067,"end":6307.433,"text":"山洞多少沒關係有山有洞我知道嘛3589萬山竹多少因為金職獎在金職獎在工程會的在工程公管處的預算裡面所以公管處的預算裡面1517萬凍結一半的話就只剩下758萬啦那這個不是金職獎業務而已整個工程管理處相關的業務都需要這個錢所以我們金職獎需要1060萬"},{"start":6310.094,"end":6318.803,"text":"1060萬如果說整個公管處凍結下來只剩下758萬可以用包括金職獎以及其他業務的話根本無法辦理金職獎好"},{"start":6321.122,"end":6345.217,"text":"現在你精緻講的一個部分因為本身你們的業務都包含在整個的一個科目裡面那本身科目的話當然有統三有三減有凍結這個部分我們都知道那我們覺得因為你本身的一個大的一個科目下面如果向下本身如果剩下的部分你可以先去做處理的我是先去做前期的處理那比較稍微不及的其他的業務"},{"start":6346.238,"end":6371.47,"text":"放在後面等解凍再來這是我給你的建議啦好不好看看能不能能夠達到這個讓這個事情也可以去做來我想這個我先要謝謝這個陳主委啊我看你這個到機場公司啊對於我們三航廈甚至我們三跑道未來一個發展你是做蠻多關注的我特別有注意到"},{"start":6372.35,"end":6385.215,"text":"那確實在今年過年的時候特別覺得恐怖你知道出國回國那個一航廈二航廈這個人潮擠爆了他吞吐量確實按照疫情之前當時覺得未來"},{"start":6388.624,"end":6410.439,"text":"出入境的人越來越多的時候我們現在兩個行下吞吐量是根本不夠的服務品質是絕對不夠的現在已經看到是非常非常嚴重那三行下當時預計的吞吐量就覺得非常非常重要我們看到下表2019年當年出入境跟過境的人數有4869萬你看到最後"},{"start":6415.787,"end":6426.28,"text":"2024就是去年快要差不多九成多了總共也這個使用到機場的也有4492萬那我這樣請問一下就第一個問題目前T3航廈"},{"start":6433.444,"end":6462.148,"text":"它的一個進度56.33因為我們希望是要完工的整個進度你是定在明年度的11月可是我們看到很多的一個配合的一個相關的一些工程當然有一些要硬體完成它可以進場的那當然最後一個包括PMS這個部分你對於整體能夠如期如質完工的目前就你深入的了解你來做一個說明好嗎"},{"start":6464.367,"end":6481.903,"text":"謝謝委員的關心他幾個部分有些停機坪已經可以完工先提供使用停機坪那接下來就是被登記廊廳一慢了一些所以我們要求今年9月15一定要完成9月15一定要馬上能夠"},{"start":6483.104,"end":6505.772,"text":"使用了那接下來就是那個主體跟藍燈機廊廳所以整個希望在116年能夠完工那目前呢陶磯公司也全力在推進啦北燈機廊廳大概在裝修了在裝修收尾所以希望今年9月15能夠完成啟用但目前的進度是這樣整個通通完成可能要等到116年"},{"start":6507.557,"end":6533.954,"text":"好那因為這幾天我也跟機場公司有了解北登基廊廳預計 剛剛我去年問你的時候原本的目標是在今年希望年中啊能夠弄好那你剛剛講慢了一點但是我是覺得要有把握一點好不好就是說因為旅客這麼多要進去相關的一些設施要請淘機公司淘機公司在工程真的要弄好不要弄一個"},{"start":6535.409,"end":6543.687,"text":"辦成品這樣 一進去給人家用罵得亂七八糟的這個部分我是希望以工程會立場要特別關注提醒淘汰公司好不好"},{"start":6545.851,"end":6570.942,"text":"那我接下來要講的最後一個就PMS那當然這個也要這個因為你的介入不是介入去關注跟淘擠公司最後的一個想法他是業主因為我們看到三航廈PMS這樣的一個航廈電巴的一個情況那我們之前談過我們就不說了就是在得標在112年12月25號得標之後"},{"start":6574.474,"end":6595.789,"text":"一路來的新歷路程到了去年解約那現在呢最新的3月11號又開始辦招標說明會了方式還是航廈電吧那個你指導他們啦因為工程類採購法這個部分啦過去一定有些問題所以我有兩個問題第一個"},{"start":6599.096,"end":6620.253,"text":"解約了我看誰向誰要錢還不知道那個部分多少錢我這邊不預判那現在再招標呢比原本的招標17億多變18億可能因為物價調整那你看看你覺得這一次有沒有發生這樣的一個事情有沒有人要人應該要負責"},{"start":6622.114,"end":6632.675,"text":"或說警告處分不是說下台啦都沒有人要負責就是說很虛幻的一件事就是哇這個大問題然後發覺沒有能力我們找到"},{"start":6633.683,"end":6653.542,"text":"沒有能力的人然後又要解約然後可能還要吵來吵去誰賠誰錢還不知道然後又重新加了一億再招標這中間到底你們在檢討的過程沒有人要負責嗎跟委員報告的確委員的見解相當正確是因為一個採購的"},{"start":6656.204,"end":6681.123,"text":"方式導致整個國家重大的工程延宕所以我們會請交通部就前期的這個採購那麼他的檢討報告送到工程會或者是我們相關會來瞭解 會請交通部來完成這個調查報告好 我也希望趕快做那再來是"},{"start":6684.082,"end":6696.049,"text":"我在去年9月30號特別有跟你討論這些事情也不光是我好幾位委員都在討論當時發生的這個問題航廈電吧發生的一些問題那我們討論到其中有一點你給我回答我說奇怪為什麼有這麼多能力可能不太夠的我們那時候講說要渣男廠商我不知道正不正確為什麼他可以一直在這邊"},{"start":6708.175,"end":6725.361,"text":"活得很厲害什麼都可以飆到讓後面都做不成那時候你也說我們希望能夠建置這些廠商的履歷讓優秀廠商跟不好的廠商大家一看就清楚畢竟發報單位從中央政府到地方政府到鄉鎮事工所"},{"start":6726.081,"end":6742.23,"text":"你知道嗎大家我哪知道哪家廠商是好還是壞所以這時候有相關的有沒有統一的一個系統建置你說這個履歷其實我蠻期待但是好像現在只能對工程類這些服務的又完全沒辦法是什麼情況要不要說明一下請處長來跟你說明另外我補充一點就是"},{"start":6748.376,"end":6774.649,"text":"我們將來這個有不管是承包商或者其他的分包商我們將來這個在101條款的時候啊他們也會重新修正就能夠希望一方面符合比例原則一方面也關注的到有些廠商這個得標A然後換個名字又去標B那這個我們會透過法制來防度這樣的現象那至於廠商的部位我想請處長來說明"},{"start":6776.57,"end":6799.825,"text":"目前我們的履歷是針對施工廠商那施工廠商假設有牽涉到他建造或設計的部分我們會在履歷裡面去呈現那不過單獨針對勞務類的設計的或是設計類的技術性的公司我們現在沒有去把他納進來這個部分假設要全面去管理我們系統我們可以去做擴充以上"},{"start":6800.305,"end":6815.636,"text":"不過我覺得還是要思考啦因為畢竟一個工程或者一個先進的一個設施能不能做成功你知道嗎每一顆螺絲如果是不行都是最後沒辦法成功啦所以我覺得像舉個例子像李立李立"},{"start":6816.917,"end":6836.75,"text":"因為這次我看到我問的淘汰公司你們又上網了又重新了那到底有什麼在標案中間有什麼精進的一個條件嗎它最主要裡面寫的必須要有相當經驗或實績者我覺得這很好還刮乎國外業績均可記錄可是我蠻害怕的我就想這個是處長嗎處長你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":6842.333,"end":6862.734,"text":"就是如果李立再來投標呢再來聯合投標可不可以啊基本上當然是不行啦就我觀點來看他應該是不行是不行 不行的原因是嗎我跟委員報我判斷李立之前所謂的時機只是一個測試階段他並沒有上路的時機所以這個時機的認定要請台積公司務必慎重"},{"start":6866.616,"end":6891.827,"text":"好啦 我直接說啦 我不要講說光是李立啦像類似這樣的公司甚至在國防領域 聽過很多很奇怪的但是就李立來講 他最早進入台灣能夠得標包括鐵道局或者幾個地方政府的自駕車最主要來源他都說他是美國佛羅里達州傑克遜威爾士自駕"},{"start":6893.377,"end":6920.919,"text":"這個系統因為哇那個弄得很大所以這個履歷到時候還在台灣還得獎經濟部還要頒他頒獎所以我在講說這個部分我覺得關卡還是蠻重要的誰來把關最後一個建議因為在上次的評審委員在挑選的過程中我們發覺其實每一個領域差一點還差蠻多的但是每一個領域可能都有都會的地方所以在這中間"},{"start":6923.041,"end":6946.912,"text":"這個這個航廈電吧的部分你找了很多領域當然機場公司一定要電力的有但是你主要以軌道工程捷運工程其實這個領域不太是有一些不太一樣我真的是希望你們建議啊你不能干預嘛你建議啊你們下次是不是再對於航廈還是電吧哦自駕電吧這種概念啊能不能要去找一下哦真正在這個領域"},{"start":6948.433,"end":6975.155,"text":"我覺得他比較專業的人一定有為什麼呢因為交通部跟我們這個車安中心啊在去年度啊就已經有研擬出自駕公車實驗運行安全的指引的草案啊我相信這個東西一定有專家在後面幫交通部跟車安中心把這個研究出來所以我是希望真的能夠在這麼多名單中間當然有軌道的"},{"start":6975.655,"end":7001.826,"text":"要自駕電巴這些的實務的系統的專家學者我們真的希望也你這邊能不能建議那個淘櫃公司也能夠一併納入讓能夠未來能夠真正的專業投入在審查過程中建立淘櫃公司就評審委員審查員的組成啊那務必能夠多元那包括剛才委員所關注問題我們會跟淘櫃公司來建議"},{"start":7003.554,"end":7023.306,"text":"還有什麼密集要講的委員報告就是說那個如果淘機公司他組成這個評審委員他要先公開廠商是可以建議當然我們也可以給他一些建議建議啦你這個自駕電巴已經出了一次問題了還是自駕電巴這一系列找幾個專家我覺得這樣比較好好謝謝好謝謝我們魯明哲委員"},{"start":7030.185,"end":7056.664,"text":"那以上啊 特別跟各位敬請各位官員上台備詢或協詢的時候請大家要尊重主席台因為主委上台備詢都是尊重主席台請問所有官員這是立法院 不是菜市場"},{"start":7058.424,"end":7067.893,"text":"拜託主委、領導之下所有只要學選或被選都一定要尊重主席台"},{"start":7069.537,"end":7088.458,"text":"那另外一個特別跟委員會報告也就是陳樹葉委員黃建豪委員兩位委員執行完畢之後我們就定定休息十分鐘特別來跟各位做宣告那現在請我們陳樹葉委員來執行"},{"start":7100.395,"end":7103.584,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請主委好 陳主委"},{"start":7109.738,"end":7129.349,"text":"委員長主委早安我們知道公共工程委員會是這個政府採購法還有計事法跟工程技術顧問公司管理條例的主管機關那對整個國家的這個公共建設的是不是能夠順利的發包推行然後包括這個"},{"start":7130.45,"end":7145.877,"text":"品質確保施工的品質等等我們公共工程委員會是肩負著很重責大任當然這些業務要順利的推動預算很重要我們看到就是說我們工程會在今年度的一個預算"},{"start":7147.518,"end":7150.001,"text":"原本是編列了5億4163萬8千元那目前就是經過就是立法院大會的一個審議之後目前是確定已經被刪了1514萬3千元那凍結業務費1億300"},{"start":7165.239,"end":7180.429,"text":"03萬元嘛這是確定的嘛對不對那本席想請問一下就是說對這樣子的一個預算被煽動的一個結果對我們公共工程委員會今年度的業務的推行會有什麼樣的困難是不是可以請主委講一下"},{"start":7181.964,"end":7196.573,"text":"謝謝委員主要兩部分就是凍結50%的部分是業務費雖然工程會預算不多但是工程會去控管的國家公共建設以今年度來講1億以上的控管就有7000多億"},{"start":7197.694,"end":7223.107,"text":"所以我們這些業務費主要就是包括去去視察去看這個橋樑或審議基本設計等等很簡單的來講如果凍結一半的話那一半不知道什麼時候會解凍那相對的那7000多億將近8000例的公共建設我們就一半沒有辦法去督導啦那這是其一第二個比較嚴重的就是金職獎因為金職獎要報名金職獎的大概去年就在準備了那"},{"start":7223.587,"end":7237.603,"text":"我們現在要發包了然後要通知業者他7月就開始來報名那我們就持續要去查核所以我們如果的預算剛才有說明凍結一半的話那後面"},{"start":7238.424,"end":7260.906,"text":"我們包括出席審查出評 賦評的委員都要給車馬費 都要出席費不知道能不能付得出啦所以到底要不要辦我們現在還在等這個預算到底有沒有比較明確什麼時候可以解凍尤其凍結金的史無前例的是在院會來解凍那我們看了一些大院的議事規則"},{"start":7262.327,"end":7284.907,"text":"院會來解凍這件事情好像還沒有潛力可循到底怎麼解凍我們都很難去有個遵循所以我們才評估說對工程會雖然預算不多那凍結53看起來不多但影響卻很大是那剛剛有委員詢問說你們工程會有沒有送出解凍案了"},{"start":7287.062,"end":7307.464,"text":"那就是說我們大院要求我們執行預算30%以後才能夠提解凍可是今年的解凍跟過去不一樣以前我們在委員會就可以處理因為我們跟各位委員都比較熟平常業務也都說明所以基本上我們比較有"},{"start":7308.447,"end":7325.215,"text":"有信心說在委員會來報告會獲得委員的支持但是在大院的院會就不一定比方說我們今年中央政府總預算在各委員會都已經談了差不多了刪多少凍結多少那機關也都我們也都同意了可是到院會去又突然會變卦"},{"start":7326.055,"end":7327.557,"text":"對 其實我們看到這次工程會被凍結比例最高的就是業務費50%我們也看到這是國民黨黨團的一個提案他們的提案也綁了一個條件就是要執行30%之後 使得申請解凍"},{"start":7348.078,"end":7367.67,"text":"那要送院會所以這個其實也是史無前例的那何況說上個禮拜四我們行政院的一個復議案才被否決所以就是說在這麼短的時間怎麼有可能說你們優務單位有可能提出這個解凍案所以我覺得這個真的是在誤導這個民眾"},{"start":7369.491,"end":7387.609,"text":"那所以這個結果都是已經確定了當然就是造成了我們工程會沒有辦法的去對這個大型公共建設的這個發包的部分沒有辦法去協助順利發包因為我們知道最近幾年就是很多的公共建設的案子流標的次數"},{"start":7388.569,"end":7405.198,"text":"比例也比較高這個也是要透過我們工程會去協助檢討之後來協助順利發包這個也是關係到整個地方基礎建設是不是可以順利的一個推展的部分那包括這個爭議案件的一個審議就是有關採購的一個爭議也是要透過我們工程會來做一個審議跟協調這個也都是會影響到這個廠商跟整個業務單位相關的一個權益問題"},{"start":7417.944,"end":7441.459,"text":"那最重要的就是有關這個技師跟顧問公司證照業務的一個推動這個也是一個很重大的影響嘛這部分我替主委補充一下這部分你剛剛沒有提到嘛這個對整個全國約三萬名技師跟一千多家顧問公司的權益也是會造成很重大的一個影響嘛是不是那還有一項就是金職獎的部分你剛剛有提到了那這個也很多委員剛剛都有這個在關心的"},{"start":7444.921,"end":7460.974,"text":"那有關這個金職獎這個可以說號稱是工程界的奧斯卡獎嘛對不對那如果說這個預算業務費沒有辦法這個順利的解凍的話就是恐怕面臨停辦嘛是不是"},{"start":7461.901,"end":7477.813,"text":"對 因為這個金指獎的期程比較長牽涉到很多家廠商他到底要不要報名或不報名都影響很大他要投入去準備所以我們希望有一個比較明確的能夠讓我們知道這個預算能不能用"},{"start":7478.433,"end":7492.872,"text":"那可是呢他的困難度就是說這次是院會解凍那到底呢將來所有的這些院會解凍的案呢是各部會呢到院會裡去尋求解凍呢還是行政院一次去尋求解凍我們都還不知道那"},{"start":7494.033,"end":7521.653,"text":"各部會向行政院來提解凍案呢還是行政院統包一次來向立法院來提解凍也都不知道那怎麼審查也都不知道那如果又陷入院會到時候又要去說明又要去表決那個都未定之天所以對我們來講造成很大的困難那請教一下這個金職獎對於工程界重不重要"},{"start":7524.174,"end":7552.368,"text":"歷年金職獎已經辦了24屆了啦所以它有一定的品牌那也是工程品質的一個指標啦所以所有的公共工程的機關或成人廠商都很希望在他們努力之後他的品質獲得金職獎的肯定啦那這個金職獎肯定除了說將來他這個再去參與其他工程的評選的時候有加分或者是他的保固禮約等等可以"},{"start":7553.489,"end":7581.627,"text":"可以減半等等這些優惠之外各界太重視這個金職獎了所以我們那個整個期程是很長啦不是說我可以這個先付款或不付款的問題那的確是希望大院能夠儘早能夠來幫忙所以金職獎對於這是就是工程界非常重視這個金職獎非常重視對所以如果停辦的話我想對整個工程界可能也是會有造成很大的一個我們也會有很大的壓力啦"},{"start":7583.068,"end":7604.363,"text":"那工程界對我們也會有一定的不諒解所以我們一方面有這個壓力一方面有預算不知道在哪裡的困擾因為我們知道透過經濟獎我們可以透過廠商間的一個良性競爭然後也可以變成是大家一個經驗的分享那也是可以確保公共工程一個施工品質"},{"start":7605.123,"end":7608.366,"text":"所以我覺得說這樣子的一個金職獎舉辦是很有意義的那何況又說這個金職獎是評定優良廠商的一個依據透過這樣子的一個評定也是可以讓這些優良廠商享有一定的一個優惠所以我們也是就是說對於這樣子金職獎因為業務費被這樣子大幅的一個凍結恐怕面臨"},{"start":7628.961,"end":7647.416,"text":"停辦我們是覺得非常的一個遺憾那另外還有一個很重要的一個業務就是工程查核的一個部分那工程查核的這個經費雖然編列的數額也不是很大可是也是非常的重要那目前也是確定被刪減了七萬兩千元然後又被凍結了"},{"start":7651.901,"end":7672.367,"text":"這個89萬就是超過了一半那對這個部分對我們這個公共工程有什麼樣的影響是不是請那個主委跟委員報告114年度的公共建設來講列管的一以上的就包括了七千大概七千七百多億所以我們這個查核才178萬凍結的話恐怕會造成連出去"},{"start":7677.088,"end":7685.661,"text":"租車都沒有錢啦這個吃個便當可能這個業務費都沒辦法使用所以影響所及是那個7000多億的一半將近4000億受影響"},{"start":7687.802,"end":7709.814,"text":"所以我覺得說這個在野黨對於這個預算在審查的時候提這樣子的一個煽動案真的就是漠視這民眾的一個公共安全所以我們也是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也希望就是說工程會在當然就是在衡量我們預算的執行的情形的話也是盡量趕快來爭取這個解凍好 謝謝"},{"start":7717.332,"end":7732.678,"text":"好謝謝我們陳書業委員現在請黃建豪委員執行現在請好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委"},{"start":7740.253,"end":7762.075,"text":"委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%"},{"start":7763.416,"end":7772.233,"text":"那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把程序稍微說一下"},{"start":7772.833,"end":7796.662,"text":"我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有"},{"start":7798.183,"end":7825.043,"text":"就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的"},{"start":7826.044,"end":7851.781,"text":"那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦 主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對於立法院來講"},{"start":7853.162,"end":7878.369,"text":"前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個"},{"start":7879.489,"end":7896.917,"text":"我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字之類程序來討論"},{"start":7897.757,"end":7911.941,"text":"那本席在這邊要提的建議是說如果要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛"},{"start":7914.332,"end":7932.252,"text":"前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦"},{"start":7933.453,"end":7947.107,"text":"那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最"},{"start":7948.849,"end":7970.014,"text":"最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過"},{"start":7972.515,"end":7987.552,"text":"主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他前面在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看"},{"start":7988.666,"end":8011.582,"text":"報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後始的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院"},{"start":8012.85,"end":8035.839,"text":"去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權"},{"start":8037.273,"end":8061.919,"text":"所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天"},{"start":8063.219,"end":8084.133,"text":"遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天"},{"start":8085.574,"end":8109.028,"text":"這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個"},{"start":8112.99,"end":8127.822,"text":"要提到工程會部分就針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的"},{"start":8129.904,"end":8154.699,"text":"最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年"},{"start":8155.299,"end":8178.248,"text":"大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程要留標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這個問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決"},{"start":8179.97,"end":8202.212,"text":"因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了"},{"start":8202.512,"end":8219.055,"text":"所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形"},{"start":8219.736,"end":8237.445,"text":"所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的該造價高的預算就變比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會"},{"start":8238.886,"end":8262.307,"text":"站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說"},{"start":8263.919,"end":8289.473,"text":"大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖5年10年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的"},{"start":8290.653,"end":8298.385,"text":"資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來"},{"start":8299.662,"end":8321.378,"text":"會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情"},{"start":8321.598,"end":8345.538,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有理業爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 主委謝謝"},{"start":8349.918,"end":8353.621,"text":"謝謝我們黃建豪委員好現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8384.07,"end":8399.104,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8406.998,"end":8407.739,"text":"加速快"},{"start":8930.54,"end":8949.881,"text":"好 我們繼續開會好 現在請我們林淨炫委員執行現在請好 感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":8958.032,"end":8975.89,"text":"委員長 委員長好 各位早上大概有有些委員也在問你那個預算被凍結的事情現在我查一下 我們工程會主要的預算都是被凍結的"},{"start":8978.206,"end":8994.699,"text":"然後他當時的凍結的條件是你要凍織30%業務費你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案對不對那剛有人說我們工程會為什麼不先送解凍"},{"start":8995.939,"end":9020.349,"text":"看起來好像你不能送 按照這個質疑上就是要按照大院的主決議審查預算的主決議是動資超過30%然後就要才可以來申請解凍但是解凍是在院會我知道 他這個當時的審議結果是要送院會才能解凍"},{"start":9021.889,"end":9041.36,"text":"我講不要說我們交委會有很多都是第一屆的立委就算資深的立委我在立法院十幾年了我從來沒有看過預算解凍要送院會送院會是要解凍程序上是怎樣第一個你要花掉30%你才能送解凍你什麼時候可以花掉30%"},{"start":9044.927,"end":9060.817,"text":"你可以拿捏嗎就是30%以後我們也會尊重大院的決議我們一定會提出提出就是說第一個程序上我們還不清楚大院要怎麼處理院會同意的這個解凍的程序第二個"},{"start":9061.737,"end":9085.11,"text":"會不會同意使用事實上是不知道因為如果院會不像貴委員會一樣那麼好溝通那我們在委員會裡面因為幾個會期都在一起比較了解我們的業務但大院那邊院會來二讀二讀處理解凍案是沒有這種經驗所以不知道程序上要花多久根本沒有沒有發生過這種事情"},{"start":9086.616,"end":9115.209,"text":"那你現在照理講預算案其實就是法律案啦程序上就算解凍第一個齁時間你不能現在就馬上送啦對不對所以工程會不能送因為你必須要業務費動資30%以後你才能送那程序上你是應該一樣要送到委員會來委員會要先審過嘛但是審過不算就解凍齁大概幾乎等於法案的一睹"},{"start":9117.794,"end":9124.326,"text":"就一讀以後送到委員會來一樣委員會審完然後再送院會那你這個解凍案是算二讀嗎"},{"start":9126.601,"end":9151.333,"text":"你這個解凍案應該就不是報告案對 按照大院的決議院會那應該是二讀照在野黨的那個看起來那個精神就是審議案對 就是審議案那你審議案院會要給你解凍院會必須要院長專門召開一個預算的解凍解凍院會因為你不能自己去"},{"start":9152.693,"end":9180.777,"text":"行政院長要 應該議長可以讓院長才能帶部會首長到院會去啦對這個部長是不能進去院會啦你要議長幫你找嘛應該是行政院長才有如果能夠排到讓你們各部會去解凍那個大概就是朝委協商啦讓你議長要擺嘛那你知道各部會有多少需要到院會去解凍的嗎不少"},{"start":9187.369,"end":9202.996,"text":"你要看院會的那個時程啦你有沒有時間排啦因為你現在是總諮詢嘛總諮詢大概到4月下旬才會結束啦結束以後我們還有一些法案"},{"start":9204.859,"end":9229.579,"text":"意思是說 除非啦 草野協商啦大家能夠同意啦 預算解凍案優先啦這個大概要看草野的氣氛啦他如果沒跟你排 你是不是要解凍你連解凍的機會也沒有 對不對而且看起來啊 那個是必須要以審議案的狀況進行那就是要排行政院長到會啦"},{"start":9231.406,"end":9247.573,"text":"行政省到院會來率領這些部會就解凍案來讓立法院的院會進行審議而且要審議通過喔對我們的理解是這樣子其實這種結論我覺得這是根本亂來反其道而行因為你都剝削了我們委員會審查的權利"},{"start":9258.444,"end":9284.827,"text":"你預算凍結刪除其實最重要是委員會我們整個會期每天要報告或諮詢為什麼委員會中心制要出來大家要強調這一點如果彭委員會的立委相較上一定比較熟悉了解業務是不是這樣所以你要刪要凍其實應該是委員會相對的你要解凍也一樣在委員會"},{"start":9286.28,"end":9290.702,"text":"所以能不能同意解凍案應該是委員會的權利嘛他有提議院會對不對我們的副院長也坐在下面嘛我從來沒碰過預算解凍案送院會去決定的那委員會要怎麼做如果你解凍案送到我們委員會來我們審查的結論假設我們都同意解凍也沒有用啦"},{"start":9315.046,"end":9324.176,"text":"因為委員會沒有權力決定嘛 還要送院會去做最後的一個裁決嘛這樣委員會我們就心寒肉燙了我們就沒有權力決定了啊你院會一百多個立委 大家會了解你工程會意義上幹什麼嗎一定是本委員會的委員會比較知道嘛"},{"start":9336.542,"end":9362.596,"text":"所以這個絕對啦 第一個我覺得時程上啦你要先花掉30%你才能送啦30%沒花 花不夠 你也不能上解凍案 對不對對你 就是你上解凍案 你也要拜託我們召委你我召委 這要給他善意 你就要拜託拜託召委 趕快給我們擺解凍案的委員會審查我們如果審查了 也不遵守啦 因為你要再送院會"},{"start":9363.556,"end":9391.861,"text":"那還要看院會 當然要朝野生生看那時候的氣氛啦拜託韓院長 看什麼時候可以把我們的解凍案排進去所以 這個會不會影響業務 我看這這要到五月 五月六月了那當然會影響業務嘛那約底就馬上又要修會啦然後又要修會了 那說 而且這當中之間要審查的法律案不知道有多少啦"},{"start":9393.134,"end":9411.226,"text":"對不對 你總不能把任何時間全部都浪費在解凍案這根本就浪費時間嘛 你應該是讓委員會來決定嘛那就你的報告啦 就我們主委的報告啦你現在預算這些被凍結大概有幾項事項會受到影響嘛"},{"start":9412.287,"end":9425.695,"text":"你自己說的 就是工程的一些裁定像你去年 我看你的報告裡面 我們來看一下爭議採購案件有786件你開會有開了1034個會議 調解會議47次就是標不出去的流標專案會議有8次 有8個案"},{"start":9437.122,"end":9449.253,"text":"另外還有採購諸行會六個案你這些大概都是必須要你業務你必須要做這是你的本業你的專業啦每個月大概受兩八十件禮業爭議調解啊你現在要怎麼開業務會嘛要怎麼開業務會啊"},{"start":9453.177,"end":9470.395,"text":"你說會不會影響 其實影響到的是一些廠商啦 民間廠商跟業主就是公部門有糾紛的啦這大部分都在這啦 生涯不是人民的權利嘛所以我們也希望啦 就這個部分啦 能夠"},{"start":9473.612,"end":9498.829,"text":"大家能夠有一個可以解決了那以目前的草原分委來看喔我看你要慢慢等啦我也不知道什麼時候可以才可以排到你們的所謂預算案可以送到院會去解凍喔沒有你要先花掉30%咧那你們要趕快開開啊為了救後面的70%那前面30%趕快亂花啊不然你怎麼知道你當時能花掉30%是不是這樣"},{"start":9502.796,"end":9508.525,"text":"那就你目前政見會影響的這種 這種你的業務啊就你所報告的啦 那你怎麼處理"},{"start":9511.98,"end":9536.152,"text":"金職講的部分我們希望能夠比較明確能夠盡速來解凍啦這個才能夠辦法著手進行啦那其他重大公件的查核啦管控啦 督導啦那我們就還是按照過去的計時政策 核發計時政策因為凍結一半嘛 只能用一半的錢嘛那如果說一半用完了大概就停擺了啦"},{"start":9536.772,"end":9551.833,"text":"但是金字獎比較特殊金字獎不能說做到哪裡付到哪裡它就是整個案而且牽涉到那麼多廠商要報名所以是要很明確說今年有這個錢要辦我們辦這個金字獎不能說要等到大院同意了之後"},{"start":9552.213,"end":9577.39,"text":"我們再來複習 廠商為什麼要爭取金職獎 爭取到對他們有什麼好處因為它是一個品質的指標嘛 保證那也是他們廠商的榮譽啦那對他們來講 得到金職獎呢那連續幾年之後 那麼他這個將來在承攬其他工程啦 評選的時候就會加分 保固金啊 理業等等都可以減免對廠商來講是一個無上的榮耀好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":9579.175,"end":9607.356,"text":"好謝謝我們林俊訓委員好現在我們請蔡奇章副院長執行謝謝主席請陳主委好陳主委蔡委員早主委早"},{"start":9609.082,"end":9634.57,"text":"這個主委預算齁刪除凍結這麼嚴重齁其實本席在質詢裡也有點辛苦啦因為涉及到預算的我都不問了啦你就沒錢我自己問一半是在問什麼所以如果我待會不小心還有問到跟預算有關係你就直接告訴本席說報告委員預算被凍或者被刪所以沒辦法執行好"},{"start":9639.286,"end":9644.195,"text":"這個預算啦這個送院會解凍這個本席也沒有"},{"start":9645.202,"end":9670.774,"text":"印象中也很少聽到這樣子解凍就在委員會現在這個可能要請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底是要不要交付委員會先審再回送給院會來審這個可能大院要去研究一下因為至少在我印象裡面好像送院會解凍這個"},{"start":9673.086,"end":9691.68,"text":"不知道,不管先回到我們的主題這個工程會,我的辦公室有問了一下最近大家都在做這個發包,都在做這個減項就做這個減項招標這個減項招標,都是因應著物價上漲"},{"start":9699.38,"end":9724.765,"text":"那因為中央政府要地方政府要經費不足嘛那經費不足的情況底下事情很重要又要做所以呢我們就把它做減相的發包那這個減相發包本來本席就覺得這個問題很大因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠但菜都先點了"},{"start":9725.97,"end":9750.46,"text":"那我們是預期反正一邊吃錢還會有人送過來餐廳所以我們就繼續吃那現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除本來已經帶夠了但因為這個其他因素又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結又刪除所以這個減項發包的問題會越來越嚴重那"},{"start":9756.343,"end":9780.416,"text":"工程會這邊有提出這個檢向發包這個主要還是因為大概有九成都是因為物價上漲這個沒有足夠的這個經費所以我們做這樣的一個調整那檢向發包最後就會發現幾個問題譬如說這個中孝橋 台北這個中孝橋"},{"start":9781.91,"end":9810.237,"text":"這個引橋拆除兩次流標那北市要檢向發包那這個檢向發包啊有沒有可能會出現這個有橋沒有路燈那像我們這個台中啊像大甲國中啊這個手球啊手球館他檢向發包的結果就是房子蓋好了裡面不可以打手球而且沒有門"},{"start":9811.377,"end":9838.95,"text":"沒有門 因為門當時檢像發包所以沒有門所以檢像發包它會產生我認為它會有一些問題譬如說報紙也看到醫院蓋但檢像發包所以醫院沒有防火門所以這個檢像發包的問題主委 這個的確是應該要認真工程會恐怕要認真來講否則以後這個案例會越來越多而且越來越荒謬"},{"start":9840.267,"end":9867.318,"text":"就不久之後我們就會看到這個本來檢向了那本來預期這個今年要補結果預算又被刪又被動所以不能補不能補就會發現就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物或者很荒謬的案例我剛剛已經舉了幾個啦譬如說我們手球場沒有門的啦譬如說可能蓋路橋沒路燈的啦譬如說醫院沒有防火門的啦"},{"start":9868.358,"end":9880.028,"text":"那我相信會越來越多所以這個要不要工程會要不要有一個統一性的指示對於檢像發包到底要怎麼來規範才不會出現這種亂象"},{"start":9884.978,"end":9899.771,"text":"剪相發包那當然也是目前政府採購法裡面這個有規範的一個發包方式那有時候是因為比方說這個原設計的費用跟他預期能夠獲得中央的補助"},{"start":9900.652,"end":9919.08,"text":"有所落差或者是他獲得議會同意的預算有所落差那在不影響主要的這個工程的核心核心需求之下那麼去檢向發包那未來他有機會再擴充可能中央也同意說"},{"start":9920.06,"end":9939.68,"text":"下年度或以後年度一定會給你那這種情形有時候是有在進行但是至於把主要的核心的價值不考慮那麼在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下做了一些比較不符合常規的減向花包那這部分的確工程會的確要來檢討"},{"start":9941.522,"end":9958.714,"text":"那把這些太陽列為一個相對的教材那麼韓班各機關那麼對於減限花包這件事情應該有一些負面表列要避開的這一類我們會同意蔡委員的這個主張我們會立即來改善"},{"start":9959.895,"end":9988.881,"text":"好 謝謝主委啦 應該要有一些規範啦沒有規範 譬如說你要什麼樣的前提底下你減相發包是可以的什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的譬如說什麼美術館減相發包那完工後還需要20億結果可能完工後沒有辦法使用就是殼子蓋好在裡面可能沒錢嘛那我的意思是說這個本來就算預算沒有被動被刪也可能會發生"},{"start":9989.921,"end":10018.28,"text":"就大家地方政府可能搶著 要有政績嘛就轉到花包出去了結果呢 東西蓋好了 卡蓋好了 內容卻沒有辦法所以會有很多那種案子就是奇怪大家看殼都已經蓋好了 為什麼遲遲不能使用本席的意思就是說 今年因為又預算遇到這個把中央的預算動成這樣 砍成這個樣子那所以可能這個問題本來就算我承諾你的"},{"start":10019.124,"end":10035.631,"text":"沒問題我本來可以承諾你結果沒想到沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子所以可能就沒有辦法承諾了就沒辦法履行那個承諾所以我同意主委啦就是你把它檢討一下就是什麼樣的樣態底下不可以再"},{"start":10036.851,"end":10064.89,"text":"這樣子的方式去發包就檢像發包應該是要有條件的情況底下才可以進行這個檢像發包另外就是如果檢像發包預期要擴充那這個訊息要揭露不能只有單獨幾家知道其他的不知道會擴充而且擴充可能擴充很多所以這訊息是要揭露沒錯因為揭露在標的過程才會公平OK這個我覺得這個建議是很好的"},{"start":10066.631,"end":10095.116,"text":"第二個我想跟主委請教那個CSR納入評比這個事情看起來公共工程會做的這應該是主計單位吧 審計處做的中央機關大概有三層做CSR的評比就是最有力標啦最有力標有納入CSR的中央大概三層國營事業大概四層地方政府僅有一層"},{"start":10096.141,"end":10121.897,"text":"那我們都知道CSR你要最有利標我們要意思就是說我們評選 透過評選評選出最好的公司 最優質的公司能力最好的公司那這裡面有很多條件要去審核那這個CSR的納入評比的比例這麼低像地方政府只有一成納入那這個CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理嘛薪資結構合不合理"},{"start":10122.717,"end":10138.166,"text":"那像這樣的一個照顧勞工考量這個勞工的權益的部分這種薪資合理化的這個部分主委有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升好 謝謝蔡委員那麼我們目前正在整理相關的法規會朝向ESG"},{"start":10150.054,"end":10177.946,"text":"方向來進行那過去我們都講CSR那目前因為環境重視所以用ESG那當然我們會在評選的部分希望各機關在辦理有利標然後評選的時候那麼有做到一定標準的他應該給他一定的分數來鼓勵企業那包括我們主席很重視的勞工的薪資的部分也都會納入加分的項目不過這個ESG或CSR"},{"start":10179.847,"end":10204.975,"text":"有做沒做或是做好做壞有時候會差很多啦就有的公司可能那個永續報告寫得很漂亮那事實上沒在做啦所以這裡我們在還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確說這個公司他很努力在做ESG或者他已經做了10年了做20年了不是去年才做的那他有沒有像像這個"},{"start":10207.517,"end":10227.71,"text":"這個金管會或證交所他上市公司有沒有提永續報告這我們正規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式來鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任或者是環境這樣的或者相關的公司治理我們都會來考量這個會遵照蔡委員的交代來重新訂購一個比較嚴謹的標準"},{"start":10228.911,"end":10251.882,"text":"好 這個主委你也知道問題啦 第一個目標要清楚啦ESG也好 CSI也好 其實都是企業社會責任的指標那這個事情要推 政府再不動就很困難嘛 特別是在有利標但如同主委剛剛講的 也有可能會有公不公平 或者真的有落實嗎 這種疑慮 所以可能"},{"start":10252.983,"end":10268.423,"text":"評比的百分比或者我們有訂定另外一套去合格查實的這個方法這個本席都支持那態度先有了後面就會慢慢推動嘛好不好最後一個這個"},{"start":10269.645,"end":10282.968,"text":"本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取這個我們台中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建那交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議那主委你知道這個案子嗎我是請我們這個處長來說明好不好這是屬於基本設計審查"},{"start":10292.691,"end":10302.498,"text":"就我們台中大甲西橋跟大安西橋年久了嘛現在公路局希望把它本席爭取要改建嘛來可不可以說明一下處長報告委員齁這個案子的改建案交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議齁那目前已經送送往國發會那國發會的現在已經在會診中"},{"start":10322.577,"end":10326.176,"text":"好 所以我們預期他的進度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":10326.482,"end":10354.933,"text":"那國安會如果審閉行政院就會核定所以基本上等國安會應該很快如果基本設計就是工程會審閉國安會這部分只是一個改建沒有相關的環評或相關的問題國安會審這個會很快所以工程會審了我們審了才會送國安會已經出去了簡單講是這樣子那已經不在你們追案子已經不在工程會了是在國安會了這樣就好了謝謝"},{"start":10357.58,"end":10383.857,"text":"好 謝謝我們蔡其昌副院長接下來請廖先祥委員執行好 謝謝主席你要麻煩邀請我們陳主委好 陳主委問金子獎 相關的也可以一起上來"},{"start":10386.597,"end":10408.596,"text":"委員長好謝謝主委怎麼沒有人要救援你好金子獎那個業務單位好這個金子獎嘛這前幾天有新聞嘛那當然今天有很多委員在詢問主委嘛當然大家認為可能金子獎很重要才會被社會來討論我想請教一下我們金子獎去年跟今年去年的這個發包的決算跟今年的預算大概分別是多少我是請處理說明"},{"start":10419.139,"end":10438.864,"text":"謝謝委員那去年的決算大概是我們在他有兩部分一個是那個委員的審查費大概將近400萬然後再發包發包的費用大概也是將近500萬左右500萬所以加起來900那我們今年大概應該也是差不多的規模啦頂多都到"},{"start":10440.429,"end":10464.608,"text":"報告委員我們每年大概成長20%所以我們今年編的大概審查費跟發報費大概是各530萬那大概1000億以內嘛對不對好那今年的我們的業務費那大概就2億嘛那當然動50%那所以說我們實際上目前我們工程會實際能夠用的大概就是1億元嘛那也就是說在我們工程會的認知裡面我們在2億的預算裡面有1億的預算是"},{"start":10468.568,"end":10495.182,"text":"優先於這個金子獎的審查可以這樣理解嗎如果說我們不辦金子獎的話不是因為業務分在各處技術處、公管處、企劃處是同那個兩位你動了一半那各處都有各處的業務你如果把它挪用來辦金子獎相對排擠其他應辦業務包括重大公共建設的考核等等都會影響到優先順序的問題嘛你怕排擠到別人的所以金子獎"},{"start":10496.022,"end":10510.302,"text":"可能就是可能順序比較後面也就是說我們今年有一億的預算你認為這一億的優先的順序就在排序的時候金字獎可能沒有在這一億裡面可能是在後面的一億所以你才會說金字獎可能不辦不是這個意思"},{"start":10513.286,"end":10526.621,"text":"那你就辦啊所有的業務費都在業務我們預算說明欄都有說明公管數多少錢多少那個企劃數多少錢這個金職獎的說明是一千零六十萬說明在這裡"},{"start":10527.762,"end":10550.156,"text":"去流用其他部會其他業務的預算就排擠其他嘛而且大院同意不同意解凍我們不知道我們就今天當作不解凍嘛對不對你們現在是預期不解凍嘛委員認為已經確定不解凍我們要這樣講你們目前就是當作不解凍來說沒辦法辦嘛如果會解凍就會辦嘛對不對我們希望大院能夠盡速解凍"},{"start":10550.816,"end":10578.451,"text":"因為解凍就會辦嘛這沒有問題嘛對不對因為就按照你們的預算在編嘛就不知道什麼時候解凍對好那就是說我們在給你的一億裡面你不打算用這一億的經費來辦金子獎可以這樣子理解嗎不可以因為這一億裡面有其他業務要用對啊所以這一億裡面沒有要辦金子獎啊金子獎受影響是50%啊是啊受影響50%啊所以你一億裡面沒有要辦嘛你也不可能金子獎只辦一半吧"},{"start":10579.588,"end":10603.844,"text":"金職獎的確 你要買就要辦 要買就不辦吧沒有辦法說辦一辦 要等著要報名啊所以就是辦跟不辦的差別嘛就是這一千萬你到底要不要花的差別嘛一千萬要花就是一千萬花 一千萬不花就是一千萬不花嘛目前我們有一億的預算 你不打算花這一千萬嗎是不是這樣理解 大院何時解動大院凍結了不只金職獎的預算 所有的業務會凍結一半啦"},{"start":10606.926,"end":10608.087,"text":"所以50%你會去與你的優先順序嘛你會去動你的優先順序"},{"start":10619.678,"end":10636.504,"text":"這個是大院到底要不要同意我們使用的問題不是我們能不能留用的問題所以好像每個東西都做一半那你議員你告訴我你現在的議員你要幹什麼我們其他的公共建設的審查或其他的議員還可以優先你講不講得出來議員你要拿來做什麼"},{"start":10637.404,"end":10662.862,"text":"一個部會都有他的預算實際的實際的我們公共建設的審查包括多少錢什麼項目多少錢這有辦法現在提供嗎我們會提供給你好啊那你就告訴在預算裡面我想你們經過仔細的審查我們都是對那個是兩億的狀況嘛對不對那現在你只有一億你會一億優先用在哪些項目我想知道嘛因為目前金子獎可能不辦嘛對不對那你其他東西就會把這一億花光嘛"},{"start":10663.868,"end":10683.29,"text":"不是一億發光這個一億就是其他業務都各使用一半的情況之下其他的業務也許可以這樣辦一半同意再來辦這個金職獎就一件事情而已現在要嘛辦接受報名然後做一些準備那如果說大院等到今年10月才同意解凍那我們還辦什麼金職獎"},{"start":10684.471,"end":10698.085,"text":"好沒關係那主委如果說你現在現場提不出來我們這一億目前的規劃要做什麼的話規劃很清楚在預算書裡面大院在審查的時候那是兩億的狀況嘛現在已經是一億嘛對不對那你就會後給我給個書面資料我們優先一億會用在哪些項目那你要說每個項目都50%我也可以接受啊"},{"start":10707.054,"end":10735.499,"text":"對不對這總是我要知道你50%你要怎麼花嘛我才會看後續的結凍案要怎麼結凍我們的預算使用每一個科目都很清楚而且委員應該有這個預算書啦有啊當然有啊但我不確定你我們沒有辦法跟委員報告說哪些要優先使用就是同商50%嘛對不對那我想知道在不結凍的情況下你50%會用在哪嗎就這麼簡單而已現在我可以跟委員報告其他的科目呢可以用一半但是靜止獎沒辦法用一半再來考量說大院要不要同意"},{"start":10735.759,"end":10751.642,"text":"好 沒關係 那就會後再給我明確的資料每一個細項好 那另外我想確認一下就是解凍三層你們的因為當初是說三層嘛 對不對剛剛主委也有一直強調這個院會的決議嘛 你們要遵守那三層的部分其實現在也三月了啦你們大概用多少了我們我們業務費 對 業務費"},{"start":10764.016,"end":10778.086,"text":"所有的業務費你們用到多少了因為我們想知道就30%嘛對不對你現在用多少我們會遵照大院的決定使用30%我們就會嚴厲來提解凍案那我剛才說得很清楚"},{"start":10779.787,"end":10798.685,"text":"所以現在你們不確定現在動之幾趴了怎麼樣解凍我們還不知道大營料我們沒關係這會後也可以給資料會後給資料你目前動之幾趴這對我們來說應該很重要啊因為你們30趴才能送嘛你們應該要很清楚現在動到幾趴結果現在花了多少錢好像也沒有辦法很明確的講因為如何解凍程序我們還沒辦法掌握啦"},{"start":10798.905,"end":10823.152,"text":"但你們都可以先準備嘛就包括你們的報告我們當然會準備都可以先準備包括委員的溝通也私底下都可以溝通嘛程序當然是到了哪時候都可以先走但是很多事情可以溝通的時候就先溝通嘛目前至少委還沒有接收到櫃會來跟我辦公室說要溝通後續的結婚的狀況嘛預算審查的時候在交通委內已經每個委員都有溝通而且交通委內已經審閉了如果說"},{"start":10825.529,"end":10853.428,"text":"即使講要不要辦我們還要再到大院兩百多個人所以你解通案就是直接送來你也不打算跟院會溝通嘛是不是你們也不打算再溝通嘛是不是溝通就是復議成功那個才是溝通因為你都已經決定是復議了所以到時候你們就直接行政院就送來然後就看你們立法院要不要過嘛就這樣子沒關係啦這個是那個這本來就是你們的權利嘛要不要溝通本來就是你們的權利嘛不是溝通不是要不要溝通你這個復議如果同意復議才有溝通的空間嘛"},{"start":10854.309,"end":10873.608,"text":"啊你都已經溝通不接受復議嘛不接受復議那個案就會報我指的是解凍案啊解凍案啊我指的是解凍案解凍案就是在預算案的主決議裡面就在預算的主決議裡面所以你不接受復議那就是那個那個案也是在那個主決議但是你後續還是要來解凍嘛對不對你還是會申請嘛"},{"start":10874.741,"end":10892.186,"text":"我們當然會遵照大院的指示到目前為止還沒有打算想溝通我想確認一下你們會不會有意見你不可以你認為你們不需要那沒關係這就是你們的態度我們還不理解怎麼行使這個解凍程序很多公共工程其實在"},{"start":10893.146,"end":10920.447,"text":"例行性的很多公共工程其實譬如說地方政府的地方道路的養護等等的他們不會等到預算過了才發包他們也不會等到譬如說今年114年度到了才發包他們可能都會在去年發包那並且在這個招標文件裡面可能說明這個預算就是有條件的嘛是預算通過後或者是我們是不是說付諸是預算解凍後來先行做這個相關的發包程序你們有這是"},{"start":10921.788,"end":10930.767,"text":"可不可以這樣做跟你們程序上可不可以這樣跟你們會不會這樣這兩個部分可以說明嗎有條件的決標是可以做的有條件決標可以做嗎所以說我們有打算要做嗎"},{"start":10932.996,"end":10957.954,"text":"這個是有錢的狀況之下我知道有預算已經有啦然後什麼時候解凍就可以花嘛對不對可是不知道會不會解凍啊所以你可以有條件大院沒有給我們一個能不能用啊所以我們如果掛那個條件結標掛有條件的結標你說可以嘛對不對可以但是錢在哪裡對所以你可以先招嘛但是就是錢在哪裡我沒有錢的情況之下沒有辦法辦理這個有條件的結標如果"},{"start":10958.856,"end":10960.12,"text":"如果給你錢了你還有條件幹嘛啦就是你還不確定你有沒有錢的情況下才是有條件啊"},{"start":10965.267,"end":10992.406,"text":"我們不是私人機關我們每一筆支出都要有預算都要大院同意所以所有的地方政府在預算還沒有過的情況下你剛剛說可以那現在好像又不行那個是預算通過了沒有通過預算沒有通過沒有人敢做這種決標啦他們都會預算沒有通過沒有一個政府敢做這種決標啦所以不能夠付諸嘛我想你如果待過議會你會知道對所以不能夠付諸我第一點就是跟主委確認這件事有預算"},{"start":10993.326,"end":11006.944,"text":"才能夠這種有條件的決標比方說我環評通過才來執行沒有說等預算通過再給所以有條件的範圍不包含預算我們預算不知道就是條件是可能其他條件不包含預算確定要有預算才能上網報告標這個沒有人敢來標啦確定齁"},{"start":11009.006,"end":11025.455,"text":"確定所以是其他單位如果說以後看到相關的相關的這個有關預算的有條件我都報到工程會來那個條件是其他的條件我都來對對對這不是這個預算對對對我知道我清楚主委的意思就是其他的條件您剛剛講的可能環評之類的但是預算這一點公家機關絕對不行應該是這樣子嘛"},{"start":11027.372,"end":11047.678,"text":"因為他沒有預算沒有通過我印象中應該有一些所以我請教主委如果說我記錯了那可能是我記錯了如果說未來我再發現的話我再提供給主委那不好意思再用一點時間最後一個這個基隆捷運這個現在在交通部那主委不知道有沒有注意到相關的新聞原本的預算大概700億當初行政院核定那最後"},{"start":11049.639,"end":11057.331,"text":"對 地方政府評估到1200億嘛那最後如果說現在提到交通部的意思就是說你先按照700億當初核定的預算規模來報"},{"start":11059.217,"end":11079.913,"text":"來報交通部那交通部合了之後會送到工程會但實際上他可能會到用到一千二兩百億那我們工程會後續的意見會認為這個差距過大嗎希望他先提這個修正報告我指的修正報告就是那個整體的這個基隆捷運的修正報告再來工程會嗎還是說我們也可以先走那最後再來提修正報告"},{"start":11080.613,"end":11097.472,"text":"我們是審查他的基本設計啦這個基本設計當然牽涉到他這個費用吧也許是這個案是修正計畫是不是是修正計畫鐵道局建議整個工程經費核定了之後再提修正而且 對他們希望今天按700億來提"},{"start":11098.72,"end":11122.891,"text":"那提我們就審他的基本設計啊你就審他700億嘛你不會針對整個計畫我們就針對工程項目有沒有合理來去審的現在中央政府大概錢的使用是受到很大的限制啦沒有我們是專業審查嘛對不對對OK好那我就確定一下我們不會因為700億跟1200億的差別造成審查上面這些我們就看交通部送什麼樣的基本設計我們就這個基本設計來審我們就審工程對好以上了解謝謝主委好謝謝主席"},{"start":11124.107,"end":11143.795,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥委員現在請喜護魁委員執行謝謝主席 有請我們陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":11150.895,"end":11170.561,"text":"委員長 主委早 主委辛苦我認識的主委 這個過去不管從中央到地方的歷練 擔任過很多的職務那甚至在這個政治的歷練上面 是我很敬重的一個前輩今天看到你 在想起 很不甘的 很認的 不會生氣啦"},{"start":11172.834,"end":11196.212,"text":"主委我想從剛剛我們看到前面幾位委員在質詢過程裡面我想又要馬而飛又要馬而不吃草那是不可能的事情尤其我們公共工程委員會兼顧的這個全國包含公共建設許多方面的包含採購預算的一些監督很多的一些重大工程的一個督促我們扮演很重要的一個角色"},{"start":11196.952,"end":11221.471,"text":"現在我看這預算連連5億多包含目前凍結跟刪除大概有高達21%的部分主委前幾天我們看到我們在野黨的召委在運會的時候有點名了我們好幾個部會主委有用點到沒有那一天你是說副總召那天沒有因為我們工程會是預算是很少"},{"start":11223.908,"end":11230.952,"text":"零頭而已但是我認為工程會的預算很重要21%如果凍結又不解凍之後這個澳幣會慷慨主委你認為澳幣會慷慨?因為這五億齁其中業務費是兩億嘛凍結一半"},{"start":11243.76,"end":11262.635,"text":"那業務會是雖然我們並沒有資本支出啦我們沒有我們自己不發包工程但是這個業務會是再來督導或者是查核或者是管控所有的公共建設他的發包他的品質他的進度或協調爭議禮約等等要做這些事情"},{"start":11263.636,"end":11287.685,"text":"相對來講2億3億一半剩下一億嘛就是我們有一半的工作沒辦法做假設我今天我們的相關處要去看100座橋樑那我的業務已經凍結一半我只能去看50座橋樑啦就是一半那這樣影響所及我們今年我們今年納管的公共建設7700億嘛就1億以上的才納管其他各機關至於納管"},{"start":11289.386,"end":11315.883,"text":"7700億的公共建設如果凍結我們一半的業務費意思就是說我們只能先管控3300億的公共建設其他3300億的預算是沒有經費去管控的啦主委這就是本席擔心的問題啦剛剛你在業務簡報裡面有特別提到除了我們過去我們關切這個公共建設的進度之外那我想很重要就是我們賴總統提出均衡台灣這個政策"},{"start":11316.744,"end":11334.738,"text":"我想這個工程會也扮演很重要的一個角色還有我們現在兩名七月份颱風季節來臨的時候我們萬一有一些復健工程我們現在要去勘栽要去做一個審查的時候我看連年出差會就突然迷迷茫茫的這後面要怎麼出差要怎麼看這個問題"},{"start":11338.045,"end":11364.619,"text":"凱米颱風各縣市都受到影響零四零三花蓮地震零一二一台南地震那這些跟這個災後重建復建有關的工程都必須要工程會來統合所以一定要到縣地去看然後其他機關主計或相關主管機關去看然後再來協助地方政府說這個大概可以補助多少地方政府把這些案送到工程會我們還去審"},{"start":11365.76,"end":11386.462,"text":"這個地方補助多少這個地方補助多少假設呢這個預算確實已經凍結沒辦法解凍那我們迅起來了今年的重大風災或其他的這個要重建的時候會影響到我們出勤的人數跟這個能力啦所以這裡面的確會受影響"},{"start":11388.517,"end":11415.223,"text":"陳友主委剛剛講的金職獎 大家都在問金職獎不能做一半 不能辦一半那你勘栽能夠只有勘上半年 下半年不勘嗎如果說是2億的預算凍結一半 剩下一億那其他的 其他剛才有尾算能不能調當然是可以調 就其他的經常性的我這邊稍微調一下 這邊挪一下盡量使用到一半但是金職獎這部分沒辦法調"},{"start":11416.883,"end":11445.487,"text":"金職獎沒辦法說我只使用多少以後同意再來辦如果我把其他的業務調到金職獎來那看起來是可以問題是在預算還沒有能不能解凍不知道的情況之下會互相排擠嘛排擠到其他的業務所以這個也是金職獎我們這個考慮在沒有獲得答應支持預算解凍的情況之下有可能今年會評估停辦的原因"},{"start":11446.207,"end":11469.58,"text":"是這樣子所以我認為公共工程委員會我們的業務也都非常非常的重要那除了公共工程委員會之外相關的各部會也會面臨這樣子預算如果不解凍我們很多業務真的受到影響這真的是要講清楚說明白了那我們這邊也呼籲我們幫我們交通委員我們的林朝偉跟我們的徐朝偉我們都會來希望來倒三天讓我們的案子今天可以來做處理"},{"start":11471.201,"end":11486.213,"text":"那主委我想我們屏東縣這個去年我們來做的一個橋樑的一個檢測那其中全國一年裡面要檢測U3的橋樑有1461座那屏東縣是排名第二我們有"},{"start":11488.375,"end":11511.577,"text":"197座的橋樑必須要做一個一年要做處理那另外U4等級的部分就是嚴重損害的部分我們也是排名第二有兩件那剛剛主委說這個未來這個預算面臨這樣的一個困境怎麼樣協助屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個財政的一個處理然後甚至針對維修的橋樑的一個安全的部分來做一個檢測"},{"start":11514.097,"end":11530.925,"text":"我們會要求這個相關的橋樑的主管機關包括縣政府也好或專案機關也好U4的部分要立即處理啦立即改善U3的部分我們希望在迅速報未來一年內要改善的計畫到工程會來列管"},{"start":11531.946,"end":11551.206,"text":"主委那剛剛已經講過了就是我們現在運營所一年只有抽查300座我想這數量真的是不足啦怎麼樣去強化這樣的一個檢測它的維修機關或上級機關會去看然後每兩年至少要去查核一次啦是啊這本身我們又來幫忙看部會來督促一下對"},{"start":11552.711,"end":11569.598,"text":"我們會要求相關的主管機關或維修機關一定要依法依相關規定每兩年要去檢測一次好 不然我們還是維護我們的車輛安全那我想根據主計總出這個物價的一個指數那2021年我們漲了10.94%2022年漲了7.36%"},{"start":11576.781,"end":11591.587,"text":"去年1.74%然後我想這樣的一個工程物價指數的不斷上漲我想對於我們的營建業者造成很大的一個壓力尤其我們很多公共工程的發包這注意最清楚的這都面臨很多這個預算的一個問題"},{"start":11593.087,"end":11611.755,"text":"這個我在去年的時候在這邊有請教過主委要怎麼樣來協助我們這個屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個合理性的一個招標然後能夠讓我們很多的供應工程能夠順利那主委面對我們這個物價上漲的速度我們物條的部分這部分要怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":11614.036,"end":11640.259,"text":"是如果已經執行完畢了那造成禮約爭議啊那麼工程會會協助來調解啦來執行後來調解如果在執行中的因為誤調的這個主張那麼縣市政府或主辦機關他可以提改就修正計畫修正計畫看主管機關來核定是不是能來再來修正相關的預算"},{"start":11641.625,"end":11664.234,"text":"因為主委也很清楚屏東縣的狀況我們有原鄉有橫空半島偏鄉然後還有離島地區所以我們針對所謂的很多相關的這個物價成本都比其他地方要更高所以我們提出來的部分也希望我們主委這邊能夠全力來協助不過因為現在有些已經本來已經核定"},{"start":11665.442,"end":11690.21,"text":"或者是已經準備核定的重大的工件那麼因為預算不知道還有財劃法的執行都有的會有暫停所以也許這一未來這一兩年整個重大工工程發包可能會順延沒有像以前那麼多主委謝謝你辛苦了謝謝好謝謝習副委員現在我們請喜智傑召委"},{"start":11707.456,"end":11718.539,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委好 陳主委委員長主委好"},{"start":11720.317,"end":11733.091,"text":"剛聽了很多 也有很多人問了金職獎所以主委你現在的狀況就是金職獎是以目前的預算煽動的狀況是確定沒辦法辦嗎"},{"start":11736.653,"end":11762.833,"text":"金職獎受影響有主要有兩筆預算一個是每一宣費用兩百二十萬歷年來工程會的預算每一宣就是這兩百二十萬這個幾乎沒有改變而且只做一件事情而已就是金職獎辦理的時候去考核整個公共工程會做所以這兩百二十萬完全是針對金職獎對 沒有做其他的那包括包括我們會上架嘛一些媒體辦這個"},{"start":11766.085,"end":11780.324,"text":"表揚的時候會做一些宣傳那這220萬全刪了就表示說我們沒有辦法再去比方說拖播委託什麼媒體去播放這個金職獎內容這一部分是確定的"},{"start":11780.945,"end":11803.688,"text":"那其他就是業務會凍結一半我們不知道什麼時候能夠解凍因為我們預計3月底之前要發包然後呢7月1號要接受報名那這個7月1號接受報名接下來就長達半年啦所有的公共工程會有很多委員去出評去看然後呢要負評所以很多茶盒很多業務會要使用時間很長"},{"start":11805.169,"end":11821.175,"text":"所以如果這個預算不確定的話那就造成要報名的這些廠商他不知道要不要報名所以我們才是很困擾的原因之一因為如果不辦那些廠商有的已經準備很久了所以我們會有壓力但是辦這個錢在哪裡是沒辦法簡單講"},{"start":11826.234,"end":11846.991,"text":"這個辦不辦不能用說大院解凍不解凍來作為依據啦一定是有預算我們才能夠去辦這個金職獎否則的話風險很高實在有困難唉 其實我看剛剛主委有曾經生氣過坦白講我也很不爽啦"},{"start":11849.881,"end":11868.068,"text":"其實金字獎我大概了解一下你們總共大概要1060萬嘛那剛剛主委提到220萬是媒體宣傳費嘛所以藍白統三的全部的議會各個部會都刪掉30%到70%那你們的刪掉50%算是中間啦那這個其實跟無目標殺人一樣的意思啦我們要針對哪個"},{"start":11878.257,"end":11894.543,"text":"部會 我就所有的部會全部都刪掉30到70然後藍白的講法就是說我沒有刪掉你這一筆金職費用金職獎530萬你們的預算那其他的相關的人會碰到的他就全部都亂刪 刪到的也不知道那還講說什麼金職獎他們沒刪那講什麼租屋補推他們沒刪講什麼那個幼教幼兒福利什麼他們沒刪"},{"start":11908.991,"end":11917.077,"text":"嘴巴都講梅山 把業務費全部所有的各部位都刪掉30%到70%這叫做梅山 讓你沒做事啊就等於說一個人說我都沒有跟你砍斷手腳啊但是我把你手腳全部都綁著啊讓你沒做事啊坦白講 其實我本來諮詢 要好好的諮詢你金指甲怎麼辦"},{"start":11938.166,"end":11943.59,"text":"結果聽到你們這樣回答其實我就一肚子氣辦了25年的金職獎今天如果因為藍白亂三你們的業務費造成這個沒有辦法辦所有全國的工程界情何以堪我呼籲全國的工程界特別的注意這個金職獎的辦理"},{"start":11967.299,"end":11980.049,"text":"這個是要鼓勵做得好的你們還有兩筆 另外一筆也被動了另外一筆其實就是那個剛剛富奎委員問到的你們公共工程的監督控管這個部分你們也是只能做一半"},{"start":11988.094,"end":12011.161,"text":"這個所謂的納管將近七千七百億嘛所以是分配到各縣市離島都有那加上有時候風災訊起來了要去勘災等等包括進度啊等等所以如果說動一半的話勢必另外一半呢就要等大院解凍之後才能去勘但是有時候比方說風災地震"},{"start":12013.457,"end":12041.844,"text":"這個沒有辦法等到解凍才能去啊所以這部分就也會造成困擾其實我真的也不知道怎麼問你啦因為這個都是攬擺亂山的問你你也很難回答啦但是我今天去講的時候我會表達很大的氣氛啦所有的手腳用繩子通通綁起來說你們可以把繩子解開啊什麼時候解開不知道啊"},{"start":12044.335,"end":12067.228,"text":"我可能會希望說跟我們黨團再跟國民黨黨團甚至民眾黨團你們乾脆一次院會動的全部都解凍掉啦不然我哪個單位一個單位一個單位要去拜託你一個單位一個單位要去問你一個單位一個單位要去通過再通過院會的程序這沒完沒了而且所有的單位手腳全部都被綁住了怎麼做事啊"},{"start":12071.772,"end":12085.638,"text":"我們南部那個行政服務中心行政院南府中心他們樓下電梯貼了一個什麼你知道嗎請大家走樓梯啦因為那個水電費那些都被刪掉了嘛請大家背樓梯啦這個東西表面上就是說每一個單位攬擺亂刪的預算表面上說我沒有刪你租屋補貼"},{"start":12100.74,"end":12111.331,"text":"現在我們的很多租屋補貼年輕人現在都領不到啊為什麼領不到就是因為業務費啊那你全面刪掉30到70就是混蛋對不起啦 我不是跟你生氣啦我是真的很生氣但是我是針對這個業務費你們被刪了50%吧"},{"start":12124.312,"end":12145.186,"text":"被動了對被動了50%嘛你們是1774.7萬然後200你看喔這個220萬你們的名稱叫什麼媒體你們的名稱叫媒體宣傳會用一年來都這樣變對南白很聰明看到媒體宣傳會用你們都是1450嘛就全三嘛白癡看到媒體的就全三"},{"start":12151.63,"end":12155.012,"text":"我不知道這一個你們後面有括號說這是做金石獎的宣傳嘛我希望說我們會這個是立法院的亂象我們盡快來解決啦那也希望說你們比較辛苦的就現有的資源齁那還是要做準備啦那這個"},{"start":12172.352,"end":12195.565,"text":"凍結的部分我們我會拜託看有沒有機會就提早趕快解凍讓你們把你們的綁住的手腳的繩子有沒有辦法趕快解開啦那不是只有你們單位不能做全國很多很多的單位都不能做事啦就是因為手腳都被綁住啦都是因為業會三十到七十八全部把所有的全國各部位的手腳都綁住"},{"start":12197.423,"end":12220.431,"text":"所以我是建議就是說那個主委您還是金職長我認為還是要辦啦您先做準備啦那我們會看看有沒有辦法盡快來處理掉這一些業務費的問題看有沒有辦法讓金職長能夠繼續辦我們希望大院如果說能夠協助工程會能夠在4月底之前"},{"start":12221.491,"end":12238.873,"text":"4月底之前如果能夠完成解凍那我們的競速我們本來3月底就要發包了嘛那5月來發包然後很明確的7月接受報名那這樣我們就還有時間啦那如果說4月底之前沒有辦法完成解凍那我想我們金職獎就很難辦下去"},{"start":12241.598,"end":12264.926,"text":"謝謝 所以拜託主委還是先預作準備啦那這裡也有民眾黨 我們招委是民眾黨也有國民黨的立委我們希望說這個所有的綁住全國行政的手腳的業務費有沒有機會一次我們來把它做一個大的解決不然這個各單位根本都是手腳被綁住沒辦法做事一起努力啦 辛苦主委 謝謝"},{"start":12267.264,"end":12293.993,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑 張偉來 現在請邱洛華委員執行好 謝謝主席主席有請工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委好"},{"start":12295.188,"end":12310.877,"text":"主委本席看到工程會有主要任務其中有加速公共建設的執行還有提升國家競爭力所以國家的發展關鍵是往往取決於公共工程建設的規劃還有執行那我們快速的回顧到1974年到1979年顧總統"},{"start":12314.987,"end":12341.858,"text":"金國先生他當時推動了十大建設那同時也奠定了台灣經濟奇蹟的基石那從交通能源到重工業然後全方位的提升產業的競爭力那在1979年的時候成立新竹的科學園區也是台灣半導體產業崛起的關鍵是台灣站上全球科技供應鏈的重要位置"},{"start":12342.378,"end":12364.564,"text":"那由此可見公共工程它不僅影響當下的經濟發展長遠來看更決定了國家未來的競爭力還有人民的生活品質那主委關於這一點您認同嗎完全認同委員的高見就是公共建設它除了經濟發展的基礎之外也是火車頭因為公共建設來帶動相關的發展繁榮"},{"start":12367.645,"end":12393.618,"text":"或者是就業等等這是非常重要的我們過去幾年前瞻計畫或者是重大計畫過去幾年是公共建設投入很多包括剛才您所提的金國先生早期的十大建設如果沒有那些十大建設帶動整個基礎的話一步一步奠基起來台灣不會有今天所以公共建設是非常重要的是 主委您提到過去幾年我們來看頭影片"},{"start":12394.819,"end":12422.106,"text":"那從投影片這三個表格的數據我們可以看到過去六年來公共工程的流費標比例都維持在70%以上甚至有個別的工程它的流費標高達14次那此外呢 那它的流費標金額越高那它的 不好意思 採購金額越高它的流費標比例也越高主委您能說明為什麼這個流費標的比例過高"},{"start":12423.246,"end":12451.143,"text":"我想大概有幾個原因第一個就是當然就缺工缺料或者是物價然後如果同時間公共建設很多那當然這個能夠做的工人也好或是營造公司也好他就會去選擇所以就會預算成本就會增加不好意思我這邊先中斷您的那個"},{"start":12451.983,"end":12474.195,"text":"好那您也有提到說因為缺工缺料那其中缺料的問題特別嚴重這也是全球經濟變化跟全球經濟他的環境變化有密切的關係那我們看到目前全球運輸成本持續上升那加上美國川普政府他的關稅政策那未來的物價恐上漲20%那主委您有掌握到嗎"},{"start":12475.696,"end":12501.792,"text":"跟委員報告因為物價的這個小組我並不是召集行政院層級的在召集這個相關的物價沒關係本席要進就是我們最近有幾個公共工程成本大幅提升的案例都顯示他是缺工然後還有缺料然後以及行政流程的拖延對公共建設經費的影響甚至那我們先來看到桃園鐵路地下化"},{"start":12502.992,"end":12514.656,"text":"2020年9月的時候行政院核定經費是1048億那受到營建市長缺工缺料的因素影響他必須來修正計畫那國發會他審議後經費增加了769.08億那總經費高達1817億那原本他2030年完工那現在確定了會延至2033年他的進度也落後了他原本"},{"start":12528.48,"end":12557.452,"text":"預定的進度是42%那現在實際的進度他只有32%那我們再看到另外一個案例捷運三一線延伸到巴德2019年11月的時候行政院他核定可行性評估當時的計劃經費是116.41元到了2024年6月11日的時候國發會核定增加43.59億總經費增加160億那目前已送院核定還在核定中"},{"start":12558.132,"end":12575.098,"text":"那我們再來看到花東花東快速道路2016年當時的可行性評估他估計興建的費用是819.6億那2025年最新可行性評他的可行性報告他總經費上升了3610"},{"start":12577.999,"end":12601.612,"text":"市議員暴增了兩千億那有這些案例我們可以發現漫長的行政流程還有工刑拖延造成進度落後那成本也不斷的上升主委那我們要怎麼因應跟委員報告以台灣鐵路地下化而言事實上他是有經過幾次的修正包括原來是高架"},{"start":12602.372,"end":12617.824,"text":"然後後來改成地下化地下化過程呢有些佔還有調整就是有修正這個修正計畫有一點時間所以呢自然而然供期延長那物價就上漲所以一直飆升"},{"start":12619.145,"end":12640.056,"text":"那這一部分呢我們希望在中央機關能夠做的情況之下就整個縮短審議的流程尤其是原來就已經有計畫了主委您身為工程會主委很清楚嗎在公共建設在中規過後那還有需要還有經過設計的階段然後再來才能進入正式發包動工"},{"start":12641.397,"end":12665.717,"text":"那如果這些程序他一直延宕的話一定會影響供給 也會造成成本上升那本期要跟您討論的是捷運的三陰線我們可以看到2015年捷運三陰線他2015年6月2號中規核定在2016年7月21日正式開工他的行政流程的歷史是415天那如今的三陰線"},{"start":12666.818,"end":12695.666,"text":"今年年底會完工那明明營運然而山陰縣延伸至八德他從2024年9月20日已經報請行政院核定本席也多次向行政院卓榮泰院長還有我們的陳士凱部長反映希望行政院能夠來進促核定已經178天了卻沒有任何進展也毫無音訊本席要請問主委您認為這樣的行政效率合理嗎"},{"start":12700.153,"end":12711.699,"text":"這個三陰縣是不是在國安會還是已經國安會審定了如果三陰縣的話我們工程會會寫審啦,我們沒有審過"},{"start":12714.773,"end":12742.4,"text":"我們還沒有審到了不過現在我們的確有一些困難這個困難我舉一個例子比方說我們去年對有些建設或地方的已經補助已經核定了困難是需要需要大家一起共同來去克服的是什麼樣的困難就是比方說已經核定了核定地方那地方有可能就編列預算準備要但是臨時現在整個現在是卡在行政院"},{"start":12743.28,"end":12751.899,"text":"就是沒錢啦就是沒錢就是未來的錢到底能夠動之多少已經那麼多的主要像您可能沒有掌握到目前不是因為經費的問題"},{"start":12754.676,"end":12773.439,"text":"有核定的也會受影響,不只這個山陰縣還沒核定目前的進度是還沒核定您是工程會的主委,同時也是行政院的政務委員本身希望您也可以以政務委員的身份來向院長"},{"start":12774.68,"end":12792.849,"text":"來反映加速三陰線的核定進度那巴德我們當地的居民也巴德的居民桃園的市民也非常期待捷運同時趕上當地的交通問題那這也是賴清德總統桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一環那主委您願意"},{"start":12794.049,"end":12821.403,"text":"來向行政院院長反映嗎我們會主動來瞭解相關審議單位包括交通部包括國安會我們願意能夠全力來協助讓他進度快一點讓他進度快一點OK好謝謝主委主委最後剛剛有很多委員提到金指甲有提到刪除媒體費的部分那本席這邊也要再提是因為我們不希望經費都只是集中在特定的媒體希望主委您能夠瞭解"},{"start":12823.066,"end":12849.225,"text":"我們那個220萬只辦一件事情就是金子獎的紀錄跟頒獎沒有其他媒體宣傳因為剛剛委員提到的是因為媒體宣傳費的關係就是我們因為編在媒體宣傳隊事實上我們那筆錢220萬只做一件事情就是金子獎去查核嘛會紀錄那他得獎之後這個紀錄這個工程怎麼樣或者是一些職人就是做這個那些表揚"},{"start":12851.947,"end":12863.72,"text":"坐在這些揭露並沒有做其他OK好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝邱若驊委員現在請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":12878.058,"end":12898.727,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列出政府相關官員會長工作夥伴媒體記錄女士先生有請陳主任委員好 陳主委委員長 主委好來我就盡快的開始進行標題你看了來我們先請教一下主委誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅"},{"start":12901.789,"end":12919.418,"text":"最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應"},{"start":12921.954,"end":12941.335,"text":"還在想 來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備施工機具裡面也有"},{"start":12942.256,"end":12956.335,"text":"工程營造的國運社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些沉險在包括了機敏的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做"},{"start":12958.393,"end":12979.949,"text":"我想跟委員報告關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安那時候有一個叫做建華重工"},{"start":12980.689,"end":13007.127,"text":"起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎"},{"start":13010.769,"end":13036.808,"text":"他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位 公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進場施作不是採購 連施作都不可以喔以保障資通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購這契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了 研修了沒有"},{"start":13039.831,"end":13042.243,"text":"趕快回答時間我請祖密來回答"},{"start":13044.261,"end":13070.2,"text":"跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是否涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":13071.921,"end":13089.851,"text":"有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊 自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來 可以嗎 主委"},{"start":13090.471,"end":13104.307,"text":"跟委員報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念是那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓"},{"start":13107.23,"end":13135.193,"text":"那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然它的上級機關它的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成據敏感性含治安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊介入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防護中國的滲透竊資跟破壞"},{"start":13136.454,"end":13161.025,"text":"可以去研擬嗎我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會來補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎"},{"start":13162.878,"end":13188.297,"text":"但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我們多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是六月您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎"},{"start":13198.404,"end":13214.551,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底它屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查"},{"start":13216.803,"end":13244.855,"text":"港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎"},{"start":13246.556,"end":13266.271,"text":"是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓有電動車的擔心設充電樁會有公安權危險但是電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施"},{"start":13268.473,"end":13292.027,"text":"其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上屋頂型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統"},{"start":13294.608,"end":13311.366,"text":"它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調"},{"start":13312.754,"end":13328.722,"text":"能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法"},{"start":13332.532,"end":13347.766,"text":"上不去了所以他要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教建築研究所"},{"start":13348.487,"end":13372.316,"text":"他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延毅公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防渡中國滲透竊資破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調"},{"start":13373.396,"end":13391.894,"text":"公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來演繹我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們宗教兵委員接下來請游浩委員執行"},{"start":13414.563,"end":13440.696,"text":"謝謝趙偉 主席有請陳金正 陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委長那剛才延續著有提到這個國家安全那在政府採購契約是否會認為有無違反那這個當然是回到自由行政嘛我相信任何的民生基礎設施都是屬於國家安全中央一環這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":13443.247,"end":13458.885,"text":"我們希望工程會能做希望比較具體那具體化的話必須要有規範或者是指引或者是對象等等比較具體那國家安全部門必須配合相關單位那我直接想要請教一下主委那像現在目前來講"},{"start":13460.146,"end":13487.837,"text":"在賴清德總統發表談話之後在這30天國際情勢也有非常多的變化包括福建這邊也開始要進行軍演然後中國大陸那邊台灣這邊也是人心惶惶日本九州那邊也要部署長程的導彈我想問一下在賴總統談話之後的這30天有沒有感受到台灣兩岸之間的緊張程度明顯升溫"},{"start":13490.151,"end":13506.296,"text":"鮑賀委員的確不好意思這樣回答啦對岸對台灣的這個不友善跟那個侵略的野心從來沒改變過那我想問一下所以說你是認為有持續升溫了嗎不是我們這個段時間來他的戰機也好軍艦也好隨時要來就來嘛"},{"start":13509.017,"end":13531.997,"text":"這不會是一個友善的因為我們這邊也不是外交國防所以說我是認為你剛才的回答其實也認為持續升溫那我還是再次強調過去馬英九總統執政時期這八年其實是都沒有這些狀況那賴清德總統在發表談話之後其實國家安全我相信不分藍綠大家都重視那包括全民也都重視那在這段期間來講"},{"start":13533.018,"end":13560.507,"text":"我是覺得確實明顯升溫啦所以回到剛才國家安全的這一環那如果說要的話那工程會相關的準則讓大家如果再填寫的話那是要有相關的指引那延續的後面要提問的那剛才你有提到了當然說在這過程中我還是也肯定工程會的同仁啦大家公家機關的公務員大家其實包括主委也是非常的盡力的在把工作做好"},{"start":13561.127,"end":13570.028,"text":"那一直在提到金職獎我在想延續不分藍綠的委員其實都希望金職獎能夠在今年25年到現在能夠持續舉辦這沒錯吧"},{"start":13572.413,"end":13595.868,"text":"當然是因為這個金子獎各界很重視也都長期在準備我們是希望他不要間斷能夠繼續辦好那就希望說主委能夠讓他持續舉辦因為我必須坦白說那在目前來講雖然是動50但是在這個部分他並不是針對金子獎的部分來去動那如果再提到媒體宣傳費我坦白說"},{"start":13597.129,"end":13616.899,"text":"剛才有人有提到說這個部分動的話是不是1450啊或是特定媒體那我旁邊講不要說委員有這麼提到那許多的民眾其實也都會有這樣的疑慮那在任何的一個解凍的一個過程中啊那我就該把這個過去的在第一會期的資料調出來"},{"start":13618.226,"end":13636.884,"text":"那在這裡那時候在解凍案的部分如果說在113年在去年的時候中央政府總預算關於就是工程委員會解凍案等幾案均同意動之提報院會所以在經費的解凍的話它還是有它的文字跟有它的法規"},{"start":13637.865,"end":13662.123,"text":"所以我是覺得到時候你要提解動案我相信不分藍綠啦那其實也絕對都支持著這個金質獎的相關的經費能夠持續來去做一個辦理啊那所以我是覺得在這個金質獎我相信主委跟大家不分藍綠跟許多工程界他們總是特別重視我覺得還是希望是往這個辦理的方向來去進行"},{"start":13663.024,"end":13685.631,"text":"那其實在 我相信媒體朋友不管在現場的或是在辦公室的他們其實也都知道啦 我坦白講在現在的這個預算的這個過程中啊不管是看到行政團隊去下箱旋轉 先圈降許多的機關在民眾的認知上 那他其實感覺起來都有KPI啦"},{"start":13686.351,"end":13715.374,"text":"那其實像總統府的KPI就是他的點心被取消了還或者是總統府不分時間要熄燈了或是不讓民眾來去做這個參觀但是許多單位各式各樣的一個做法來去講這個預算那回頭來講民眾的各自有解讀但是我是覺得在工程委員會其實大家也是在做也是為人民做事啊包括主委"},{"start":13716.095,"end":13734.672,"text":"那所以金職獎的部分在辦理上我覺得如果到最後會變成這個工程會的KPI的話那這個會甚為可惜所以我還是希望說主委能夠往辦理的方向來去進行那至於剛才有委員有提到說這個預算綁住人民的手腳我坦白講"},{"start":13735.453,"end":13758.387,"text":"大家要去思考在過去的這一年那其實我們看到我相信工程會的預算大家在使用上也是盡心盡力所以那時候在交通委員會的甚至好像交通委員會的委員不分藍綠其他都是支持但是我們看到包括救安基金他的這個經費預算拿去辦演唱會包括拿去做室內的高級裝潢"},{"start":13759.528,"end":13786.415,"text":"那包括其實其他單位都有傳出這些預算使用不當的這個問題那我覺得在我們民意代表的角色上本來就是務實來監督來去審查預算所以凍結的部分我坦白講如果今天任何一個民意代表在監督預算的時候那都不去做任何合理監督、理性監督、嚴格監督的情況我相信這也不是全民所樂見那所以說今天綁住的不是機關的預算"},{"start":13787.515,"end":13807.967,"text":"反而是綁住像過去的這些例子那我覺得將來如果合理的部分我們大家一定會支持但是還是要請不管是工程會或是各單位在預算的解凍報告上那還是要盡力的來去讓社會各界寫的東西能夠讓大家能夠接受檢驗那我相信大家也會"},{"start":13808.928,"end":13831.858,"text":"那過去的話其實在解冬區專案的許多報告上其他的單位有些解決就草草一張紙那並不一定把認真的把這個解冬的過程解冬的內容執行的情況有詳細的跟社會社會各界交代那也同樣來這個機會也跟大家就是就是請大家在解冬案未來再提的時候相關的報告我相信這個執行率還包括這個內容來講其實"},{"start":13834.179,"end":13856.855,"text":"預算案大家全民都在看現在都攤在陽光底下我們提了什麼的案子都可以可供檢驗那同樣的未來解凍案的這些書面資料書面報告跟質詢力跟相關的理由事由我相信也是會被社會各界所檢驗啦所以我還是在這裡還是勉勵大家還能夠盡力的來去努力那最後的話我再針對這個35座橋樑被評為U4整齊那南投的綠美橋有沒有在名單之內"},{"start":13861.898,"end":13891.058,"text":"南投的橋沒有U3 U4的好那目前來講全國的這個部分那相關的近期的橋樑檢測計畫那預計這U4的部分什麼時候可以把它完全修復U4就是要立即處理所以我們會通知那個主管機關或者是維修的機關要最迅速的來處理那其他的一年內要處理的我們會請這些機關提他的維修或者是改善的計畫"},{"start":13892.039,"end":13900.313,"text":"好那最後的話就是本席針對剛才有提到推動淨零建築的部分那請問一下工程會目前的立場跟進度為何"},{"start":13901.917,"end":13924.625,"text":"淨零是我們政府的總目標2050那我剛才的說法是這樣就是說有排碳有固碳希望能夠綜合以公共工程來講他的目標不會是只有淨零排碳這件事情他有安全有結構安全有方便有設計所以這是一個總目標的最適設計所以不能說以"},{"start":13925.725,"end":13942.035,"text":"排碳為唯一的目標讓其他的設計要配合這個排碳那其他的結構安全怎麼辦呢比方說鋼構一定比磚排碳更多那難道我們都以排碳為目標所以所有的房子都要磚造嗎不是嘛"},{"start":13942.395,"end":13969.029,"text":"所以它是一個綜合的設計那淨零當然我們要重視所以我們全生命週期的包括這個建材它在生產過程這個在開採過程或者是我們就地取材減少運輸那綜合的來把這個碳能夠減下來這是我們目標我們也會全力以赴也會督導其他的所有的主辦機關來注意到關於排碳這件事情要自我檢核"},{"start":13970.37,"end":13998.165,"text":"好那因為這是剛才延續洪孟愷委員所提問的那讓你能夠補充說明那本席也希望在江灣的建築工程的話公共總委會絕對是專業中的專業但是也由於你也就是身兼政委員以及過去對地方上面機關上面也都非常熟悉業務那這個兩者之間的平衡那還是有待組委會來來講來推動還也可以跟後續跟委員會大家再做個報告好謝謝"},{"start":14001.701,"end":14027.812,"text":"好謝謝尤浩委員現在請陳俊宇委員執行好謝謝主席我們有請主委好請陳主委"},{"start":14034.122,"end":14060.855,"text":"主委吳安委員長主委高鐵延伸宜蘭這是對於整個環台高快速路網一個很重要的一個區塊那對於這個近期內我們對於這個高鐵要延伸宜蘭也有許多討論的一個過程那總經費也從一開始的近千億到現在已經上看可能要到四千億了"},{"start":14061.815,"end":14090.907,"text":"那現在在坊間常常都會聽到一句話就是說現在不做以後就會後悔那我相信這個對於這個我們這個國家的一個重大建設的一個推動我覺得應該是永續的一個進步的一個程序那礙於這個財化法的這個修正我們現在擔心這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭的部分相關的期程會不會延誤到"},{"start":14092.761,"end":14116.841,"text":"給委員報告因為北北基於成為一個台北市首都生活圈的一個這樣的計畫所以關於交通高鐵延伸宜蘭市是有其必要所以也是行政院的重大政策那我是工程委員會的主任委員我當然有權利來督導或來建立或來指示"},{"start":14118.633,"end":14139.734,"text":"這一這個國家的重大建設那因為我擔任政務委員同時也督導交通部內政部環境部所以我當然也希望這個國家的重大建設如期如止的來完成那目前的進度就是環境影響評估報告書二階的部分交通部鐵道局已經完成了那麼送環境部來審查"},{"start":14141.235,"end":14162.704,"text":"那因為這個高鐵是當初直線鐵路可行研究的替代方案所以後來鐵道局也補了一個修正計畫就是說這個可行的修正計畫他繞過翡翠水庫的這個集水區目前都在進行中那所以呢我因為這樣的角色"},{"start":14163.444,"end":14187.295,"text":"我督導這樣的一個工程我們希望這個工程如期就是希望他這個今年啦年底之前行政院能夠核定那核定之前呢必須要通過環評所以我對於環評呢也希望如果沒有其他問題希望他能夠獨立來環評委員會是獨立審查嘛合一審查所以如果沒有相關的問題希望他能夠"},{"start":14189.657,"end":14194.481,"text":"來競速來審查審議這個環評案所以目前進度不會受影響"},{"start":14195.353,"end":14218.917,"text":"好謝謝主委我希望說這個高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分一定無論如何要拜託主委督導的部分一定要落實為什麼因為不能再等了已經等那麼久了那好不容易我們已經走到這個階段了這我相信是所有宜蘭人引頸期盼對外的一條高快速的聯絡"},{"start":14219.918,"end":14236.02,"text":"連絡道路啦那也可以讓未來我們要還台六小時的一個交通路網趕快做一個銜接的一個這個東部的一個一個山鐵公共站的一個起點那我希望說這個部分要無論如何拜託"},{"start":14236.6,"end":14262.557,"text":"主委在這個督導方面一定要確實的掌握那個期程沒錯就是說過去東西部建設不平均賴總統他均衡台灣的理念交通建設是中二一環如果今天高鐵能夠延伸到宜蘭他將來有一天就會延伸到花蓮就會到台東就會連接到屏東那麼台灣呢"},{"start":14264.374,"end":14285.167,"text":"這個整個台灣由高鐵來串聯我覺得這個是對台灣是一個好事他不只是東部人的高鐵任何人也會到東部是全國在使用的全國人民重大的一個交通建設所以到宜蘭或者是南邊到屏東只是一個起點將來就會到台東將來就會到花蓮是好"},{"start":14288.171,"end":14311.367,"text":"另外要拜託政委就是我們的環山步道那因為宜蘭縣的這個山邊這個山上的步道非常的這個完善只是欠缺串聯那當然在政委您提出要建置這個環山步道之後已經陸續都有成效出來那五年內完工的部分會不會對於這個財務法會帶來什麼影響嗎"},{"start":14315.813,"end":14338.866,"text":"這個環山步道就是納入國家綠道就是整個希望過去有歷史文化的步道或有觀光價值有健行價值的把它串聯起來那宜蘭的這個環山步道指的就是淡蘭古道就是當初到宜蘭開墾的先民是走淡蘭古道一直到蘇花古道"},{"start":14339.446,"end":14364.021,"text":"那麼沿著山邊能夠形成五環那麼由中央相關單位跟宜蘭縣政府來協助這部分的經費是不多那大概是有的都是一千萬以內所以我們盡量克服來希望這個六年之內來完成在宜蘭的這個環山步道的五環提供給北部民眾甚至所有的民眾到宜蘭"},{"start":14364.861,"end":14387.628,"text":"可以有一個輕旅行或者是到這個整個步道串聯不管露營等等都好這提供給服務所有的民眾是北起龍嶺步道到南至這個蘇花谷道310公里那這個構想提出之後我要跟主委您報告就是很多登山客都在期待"},{"start":14388.308,"end":14411.577,"text":"期待這一條步道可以真的盡早來打通讓他們在登山休閒的過程裡面有一個新的選擇那從這個環山步道要觀看整個太平洋是非常漂亮的尤其我們宜蘭這個山景跟平原的這個景色是在全國來看是獨一無二那我也在此也是在懇切拜託我們主委對這個部分"},{"start":14413.378,"end":14438.244,"text":"來督導我們相關部會包括東北角風景區管理處還有林保署以及縣政府能夠對於這個工程的配合儘早來完工這個環山步道是20年前就已經規劃完畢了所以一直延到現在我們重新啟動希望能夠儘速來完成好 謝謝主委好 謝謝我們陳俊宇委員現在請李博義委員"},{"start":14440.029,"end":14446.833,"text":"李博義委員李博義委員好現在請張祺凱委員執行請陳主委"},{"start":14471.51,"end":14490.121,"text":"我看你可以一直人在問你這個公共工程金職獎這個事情其實你做過在法院你才知道凍結要解凍是很容易的事情而且長久以來你印象中有凍結的案子到後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":14491.791,"end":14496.295,"text":"主要是兩件事第一個從來沒有說要求院會同意使得動資這件事情立法院"},{"start":14508.846,"end":14524.175,"text":"也許從南京成立立法院到現在查一下看看有沒有說要求立法院解凍到議員會去解凍的很多其實有啦你有誤解了有有立法院送到議員會解凍的很多其實很多很多"},{"start":14525.155,"end":14540.752,"text":"那第二個就是說平常我們在委員會因為大家都很熟識業務很了解那委員們也認真審查這個業務所以在委員會解凍溝通很容易啦所以才不會去真正去嚴肅去"},{"start":14542.233,"end":14563.356,"text":"想說解凍這件事情合憲或合法在委員會是OK啦講一下所以如果那麼嚴肅提高到院會來決定我們看立法院之前新司法院會能夠審理的只有幾項宣戰、構合、預算法案及其他國家重要事項所以難道我們要求工程會"},{"start":14564.457,"end":14590.445,"text":"一億或幾千萬的解凍案算要報到院會去解凍屬國家重大事項嗎這份倒是其實每一年都有一些案子是送到院會去要求解凍老蔣也非常簡單沒有困難我就看了你這個案子最重要是你被凍結的理由是什麼如果是合理的又很簡單的你就不能夠好像是情的讓我們那些民間團體"},{"start":14592.233,"end":14615.824,"text":"覺得說好像是立法院去砍了他的預算啊你應該把它交代清楚啊你知道你這邊為什麼你的業務費被凍結了50%你沒看那個案例喔注意 你知道你為什麼被凍了50%嗎你應該去看提案啊這個提案很容易解開啊我點給你聽啦 來 看這個"},{"start":14618.675,"end":14628.597,"text":"現在上一張來上一張給主委看一下來來來解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎來為什麼會凍了公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%因為根據112年審計會的審計報告上面說的他說什麼他說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供結標的價格對應的標的資訊跟底價的金額"},{"start":14648.834,"end":14652.719,"text":"他要你這個提出來啊 因為這通過 因為這很困難對不對這個難做嗎 甘不難做第一 審計部的決算報告 標示合理"},{"start":14664.571,"end":14680.983,"text":"合情有需要嘛 對不對所以他要求用這個理由要你做這件事情合理嘛他要你解凍的理由很簡單啊你就照這樣做把這個資料庫建立起來送到立法院來報告這個很簡單的對你來說可能一天就做好事了是不是"},{"start":14692.476,"end":14711.976,"text":"所以 指揮 我知道你很努力 你也為了動50%在耕耗 我知道啦問題你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚好不好 你可以這樣說啊 你說你很努力要解凍對不對你趕快把這個案子 這幾天就做好了嘛有兩個管道嘛 你看我們的"},{"start":14712.918,"end":14721.382,"text":"你交通委員會這麼幸運 你有這麼英明 理性的召委林國聰在這裡你拜託他幫你擺啊 但是你也要拜託韓院長幫你擺啊是不是 這個有困難嗎 會不會 不會嘛報告委員就是說 我剛剛講過 院會來處理委員會審查過的預算"},{"start":14735.026,"end":14764.121,"text":"是還要同意使得動之這件事情的確是很少見啦也很難執行我坦白講到現在為止貴院大院都還沒有明確說這個關於預算院會同意使得動之這件事情來教導行政院教我們應該怎麼提案 教導不敢啦 不過你人言那好 你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來 我跟你講立法院這個事情也不會拖啦我給大家看一個資料"},{"start":14768.627,"end":14779.043,"text":"這個資料你們一定有印象113年啊被凍結的預算交通部傻傻一餅他在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎4月18號"},{"start":14782.228,"end":14806.746,"text":"4月18號交通這個決議叫什麼113年度中央政府總計算管理交通部主管凍結案有多少股泥113年度31項一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦解凍因為是宴會交下來了嘛親同意動資提報宴會交通部有31項就過啦你公共工程委員會股泥應該也有凍結啊你是幾個案過來審完就過啦"},{"start":14809.295,"end":14836.843,"text":"那更不要講院會啦院會到時候一定是把你你凍結最主要就是這個業務費嘛對不對我剛講過啊審計部要求的第一對他來說很簡單的啊那我看你的工作同仁工作人員應該很強啊你交代一下這個案子明天就擬好了啊應該是4月18號以前應該可能就解凍了吧所以不用第一個不用擔心你們有好的召委立法院也一定會盡速去通過嘛其實重點要強調喔"},{"start":14839.663,"end":14863.012,"text":"內容要看因為審計部為什麼這樣要求立法院為什麼要這樣要求啊我剛剛講的嘛 你也點頭嘛 對不對他的要求是合情合理合法嘛 對不對啊對人家講很容易做嘛那就趕快做啊你來這邊不是一直在解決是在你是在解決問題了啊不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊好不好先弄到民間連那個金詞獎金詞獎已經辦了幾屆了二十四屆第一屆五屆這樣你如果照預算法的規定"},{"start":14868.516,"end":14890.772,"text":"我們的總預算到現在還沒完全過總統還沒公告預算法裡面有明定啊 法定的預算啊延續性的預算本來就可以延續啊你已經說24屆辦25為什麼不行我今年是算第25屆所以預算指的是今年的預算他就是要延續性的嘛 尤其這不能反對啦僅此講這麼好的一個獎項 對不對"},{"start":14894.773,"end":14905.541,"text":"他如果是特優我看那個特優他以後去外面那個比價的時候他那個底標省二分之一耶對不對而且都很有榮耀啊總統還頒獎啊"},{"start":14907.347,"end":14909.928,"text":"我剛才已經有說明了就是如果4月底之前"},{"start":14930.193,"end":14951.546,"text":"預算能夠獲得解凍那金職獎繼續辦如果10月底之前預算沒有解凍那金職獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦另外我跟委員報告就是說以這個黨團提案然後說主決議是院會同意使得動之這件事情完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責"},{"start":14953.107,"end":14967.551,"text":"委員會所有的預算在委員會已經審閉了包括凍結凍結這是第一個我們最好不要經常有這樣的東西主委這沒有侵犯這歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作有些送到委員會凍結解凍有些送到立法院主決議通常是委員會通常主"},{"start":14970.012,"end":14999.172,"text":"主結通常是同意院委員會所提的說委員會解凍啦那第二個就是院很重視你們工程會嘛所以才會送到院會嘛不過最重要其實我剛才講的內容合情合理合法而且很快啦那來我再來講一個觀念我們再溝通一個觀念啦事實上每一年凍結案都很多我剛才講大概113年度高中報的31例啊對不對我剛還特別請請那個指揮你回想一下你當過立法委員有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":15001.175,"end":15026.082,"text":"非常少耶 我印象中只有一次啦賴清德因為國民黨去動了那個公共電視的那個預算啦因為賴清德 那時候賴總統是那個幹事長他不願意簽那個解凍後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了一個廣告要賴清德 賴幹事長要解凍只有那一筆其他一定如期嘛 所以你不要擔心你的什麼金字獎沒辦法辦啦另外我給大家看一下"},{"start":15030.669,"end":15058.374,"text":"今年啊 凍結的凍結的這個比例啊佔總預算的4.6%我說我從90年開始算那時候你已經在內閣啦90年開始算有8次都比今年的凍結比例都還高了你就算金額有4年比今年都還高啊我剛剛講了都解凍啦所以我拜託一下一方面我是會說這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就會講說什麼凍結沒辦法做"},{"start":15060.629,"end":15076.606,"text":"以前就沒有這個問題啊這是第一個我今天要特別強調的第二個你一直在擔心你的金職獎因為我昨天看了報紙還登了大大一個版你趕快跟我們優秀的優良的那些建商講金職獎沒有問題好不好OK好謝謝好主委謝謝"},{"start":15078.66,"end":15107.106,"text":"好謝謝張祺凱委員好接下來張宏祿委員張宏祿委員張宏祿委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員執行我們請主委好陳主委"},{"start":15113.3,"end":15132.316,"text":"委員長主委好 主委其實今天很多委員都不斷強調一個部分就是剛才提到的金職獎那我想確認一下金職獎剛才聽到如果說4月底前解凍那是有機會辦如果4月底前沒有解凍的話有可能會停辦這樣的理解是真的嗎"},{"start":15134.997,"end":15163.524,"text":"所以如果是這樣的話那金職獎對於工程品質他過去是有很多提升的貢獻其實剛才我也不斷的在強調他是國內工程界被視為最高榮譽的獎項所以很多施工單位為了要拼出這個金職獎他們不斷的在對自己的這個做法提供優質永續的公共工程所以他們不斷的在努力就是希望有得到這個獎這個肯定對這些公司企業都是很大的幫助"},{"start":15164.324,"end":15189.206,"text":"所以我擔心的是說如果金紙箱這種激勵的金字如果不見的話加上監理的資源減少那可能會導致一些工程品質甚至會下滑特別是在高風險的嘉義山區的地區的這些建設有什麼措施這個主委你可以想一下有什麼措施可以維持我們的品質的標準有沒有什麼其他的方式或者是在現行的狀況之下我們能做什麼"},{"start":15190.568,"end":15207.481,"text":"這個公共建設工程會可以去考核去督導那全國各縣市都有這樣的工程那如果是中央的工程或是中央補助的工程都可以去所以我們有查核小組等等但是這些業務會也動了一半"},{"start":15208.469,"end":15234.997,"text":"這些業務費也動了所以比方說我們查核的對象全國7700億這些業務費動了一半之後很簡單的計算就是有3400億左右我們沒辦法不知道沒有那些業務費包括包括查集包括什麼都沒有辦法沒辦法去做所以會當然去激活的次數可能會順延那也許就是會慢一點我想這個是也無可奈何"},{"start":15235.777,"end":15256.585,"text":"所以我想要確認一下被凍結的影響因為前一陣子我們嘉義大埔地震其實不是嘉義大埔台南也是地震那對我們這些嘉義山區的重要的一些公共工程可能會造成衝擊現在有沒有知道是哪一些可能急需但是被延宕的防災工程有沒有這方面的了解從台南到嘉義一帶"},{"start":15258.579,"end":15272.459,"text":"這次的地震因為嘉義跟台南的部分屬於地方管的公共工程那麼地方都已經篩準已經夠都已經在執行公共工程的部分中央0121這個地震"},{"start":15274.562,"end":15290.825,"text":"中央的補助還沒有那只有有的是學校有的高中或國中教育部會來協助那這一次比較嚴重的那些平常都是土葛柱有一些磚瓦房的秦島或者是那些你要有正年紀嘛"},{"start":15292.026,"end":15319.536,"text":"烘焙那個年間瓜那些窯有受到一些影響這部分我們正透過政災基金會的錢看能不能來協助那島市呢之前的地震嘉義的確是受損嚴重甘米颱風也好那麼很多山區的遺傳我們也去看過所以我的意思是說我們遺傳不多啦凍結了一半但是影響所及是放大了很多倍的影響"},{"start":15320.782,"end":15340.716,"text":"所以我這個地方還是要請主委能夠更重視我們這個嘉義特別是大埔地區就是受到地震的影響剛才提到的震災基金會的部分那也希望能夠加速就是加寬那當然還是能夠來協助我們的這一個受震災的影響的範圍其實"},{"start":15342.617,"end":15369.292,"text":"近期從台南到嘉義從大埔鄉其實在更之前中埔鄉也有地震中大型的地震那導致很多國中國小那這些校舍都有受到影響所以我們為什麼會這麼重視中央的預算凍結的部分能夠盡速能夠超越之間想一個方法來把它解凍或者是說把預算的部分找出一個方法我們能夠把這些東西解套"},{"start":15369.892,"end":15396.129,"text":"因為是對我們這個防災也好或者是一些工程也好都是非常重要的所以還是希望主委能夠在這個地方來承諾這個對嘉義山區還有台南特別是我們這個真溫水庫周遭的區域這幾個地方這些重要的防災工程的監理絕對不可以打折扣這個不可以跟我們嘉義鄉親台南鄉親都做一個具體的這個承諾"},{"start":15398.264,"end":15418.998,"text":"我們會全力來支援或協助針對這個去年1月21號大埔跟台南尤其水庫旁邊的這些比較弱勢的房子我們也持續在跟兩個縣市政府在談當中會全力來協助好 謝謝"},{"start":15422.298,"end":15450.277,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來 習新穎委員習新穎委員 習新穎委員 習新穎委員不在賴世保委員 賴世保委員 賴世保委員 賴世保委員不在陳寫生委員 陳寫生委員 陳寫生委員不在好 登記執行委員 經已發言完畢 做以下決定"},{"start":15451.479,"end":15471.469,"text":"一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員以執行之中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請公共工程委員會競速以書面答行以上今天謝謝各位委員各位官員我們會議結束 上會"},{"start":15513.649,"end":15514.012,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}