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包括主義總署來在研擬新的財化法的精神裡面"},{"start":264.656,"end":288.792,"text":"因為那個卓院長如果原來的版本是最好的版本那現在像政府院長他就不必再找這些部會首長來討論提出行政院的版本其實那時候我們是要求希望行政院能夠提版本一併進去討論但是當下這個行政院跟財政部真的沒有提出來院長也許你是"},{"start":290.213,"end":318.158,"text":"或是執政黨的支持者會把現行財化法出現有一些瑕疵難行的地方刻意把它凸顯放大來檢視但是本席要強調的是如果沒有本黨在立法院積極來反映全國多數的民意推動各界正式的財化法修法的急迫性和必要性那我請問院長民進黨"},{"start":320.32,"end":333.258,"text":"執政的行政院會願意主動來回應多數民意提出財化法的修正版本嗎這個委員恐有誤會在去年12月20號大院表決之前等一下可以請莊部長"},{"start":335.322,"end":352.975,"text":"回答在那個表決之前行政院跟各地方以及我們內部經過了多少次的討論當時的狀況我們請鍾部長來回答我認為那個也不必因為我們在財委會裡面有討論過你們要是有提出來到時候可以併進去大家來研商看怎麼做最理想"},{"start":353.996,"end":369.59,"text":"中央跟地方是要合作當初表決之前那一個禮拜因為院裡面發生了一些一些意識上的爭執所以沒有辦法進入到協商行政的立場是通過執政黨黨團要在協商提出但是沒有機會提出"},{"start":371.171,"end":392.257,"text":"就好比普發現金一萬元好了 民進黨立院黨團這個行政院起初也是反對到底到最後風向球又改變這個變成同意甚至於現在連主計總署官員也說隨著普發現金一萬元上路啊 應可以發揮刺激整個內需的一個效果"},{"start":393.378,"end":411.914,"text":"有助於拉抬第四季的民間消費的表現那我請問院長執政黨當初不分青紅皂白扣在野黨的帽子現在反過來趁政策紅利的熱度這是對全民負責的態度嗎我們當初的想法是我們不舉債"},{"start":412.975,"end":431.792,"text":"用稅計剩餘就可以因應這一次的中央政府總預算跟特別預算但是在大院表決的時候卻一再希望行政院能夠補發現金對於行政院不舉債的這個用心完全不被重視所以與其如此行政院就衡量"},{"start":432.893,"end":458.354,"text":"大院所通過的那個特別條例2350億是不足以來補發現金所以我們調整的內容變成2360億所以這個是依照行政院調整之後也用了舉債的方式增加政府舉債的方式才有辦法來因應所以這個部分是我們在公共政策財政這個紀錄上面的一個考量所以是行政院的版本那個卓院長當初"},{"start":460.322,"end":472.393,"text":"在野黨要求普發現金一萬元主要就是因為連續好幾年我們都知道稅收超徵連續四年超徵了一兆八千多億不是超徵是時徵數超過預算數"},{"start":474.079,"end":499.891,"text":"對啊 你確實啊很明顯的是行政院不是不能提財化法修法的版本而是去年卓院長的最好版本的說法本席解讀看起來就像是不願意把二十多年來二十幾年來未修訂的財化法重新客觀來檢討中央地方政府應該要進行財政的改革院長 副秘書長"},{"start":501.414,"end":519.329,"text":"阮昭雄說這個財化法修法版本以和執政黨立院黨團取得一定的共識但草案到立法院後是我獲得立委的認同多數立委的認同是一個很大的一個挑戰那我請問院長"},{"start":520.41,"end":546.608,"text":"行政院這次的財化法修法的版本有沒有獲得多數地方政府的共識這個很重要你剛剛有講那你認為要怎麼樣才能獲得多數立委認同的修法我覺得最重要的是當全國所有的縣市都放在公平的立場上沒有誰最優越也沒有六都直轄市那麼優越最優越"},{"start":547.549,"end":565.742,"text":"而這個縣市全部放在公平的角度上來計算地方的均衡這樣才能得到所有縣市的支持目前我們新的財發法就是往這個方向在做因為今天到這個會期 研會結束只剩兩個半月"},{"start":566.943,"end":584.66,"text":"那院長 財政部莊部長曾說估計啊年底前會送出行政院修法的版本希望立法院能夠在這個會期啊能夠三讀通過那我請問院長您怎麼看我剛剛說過我希望在"},{"start":585.697,"end":600.033,"text":"這個會期就能夠結束之前就能夠通過現在我要看財政部主計總署跟各縣市的財主單位談的結果如果達到一致的話我們會把時程提前或許下禮拜我們就會進行正式的討論我希望齁"},{"start":601.134,"end":616.069,"text":"這個就是要積極啦然後多溝通然後有問題提出來怎麼解決能不能請部長談一下他如何積極溝通是 跟委員說明有關財化法的部分在水平分配的部分財政部已經召開了四次會議"},{"start":617.15,"end":642.804,"text":"那在最近一次也在10月的時候邀請地方政府來開會相關的指標還有權重已經獲得大部分的縣市能有共同的共識而且我們在人口也好土地面積也好在計算上更為細緻更為細緻也就是說人口上我們因為老年人口或幼年人口需要更多的服務以及土地面積裡面要分別土地的種類譬如說農牧用地建築用地林業用地都要有不同的一個權數"},{"start":643.744,"end":671.413,"text":"所以這個部分可以均衡城鄉的一個差距而且這一次修法的目標很明確第一個就是我們的國民的生活品質要能夠更均衡不管他在城市還是鄉村然後垂直的分配要更合理中央跟地方財政都要能夠有合理性還有我們的水平分配要更公平能夠讓各縣市都得到相同的一個支持還有地方自治要更能夠強化我們擴大他們的財政自主但地方自治也要能夠強化"},{"start":672.393,"end":687.734,"text":"還有中央跟地方夥伴關係要更能夠提升我想中央跟地方都是一個夥伴的關係這是我們的一個修法我希望在最短的時間裡面能夠取得就是大家能夠認同接受院長"},{"start":689.055,"end":710.399,"text":"因為明年編列AI新十大建設預算有311億元那你曾說這是未來國家發展的重中之重那8月下旬經濟部長龔部長也接受聯合報的專訪也說明年開始要推動AI新十大建設希望把AI相關的技術導入百工百業讓產業升級轉型"},{"start":713.94,"end":733.734,"text":"就本席了解產業轉型是指國家地區或產業透過整個系統性的調整其產業的結構將傳統或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值的產業的過程那我請問院長"},{"start":736.476,"end":757.738,"text":"產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎既然要導入百工百業你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位或促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎你的看法呢謝謝委員的支持我們的AI新十大建設"},{"start":759.278,"end":783.424,"text":"大致上分做三個區塊第一個是智慧運用第二個是關鍵技術第三個是數位機盤那明年是一開始第一年的預算我們統合一開始初期當然預算沒有辦法變到那麼多因為很多在計劃過程當中那未來逐年會是適時的需要而增加那我希望明年的310億我們真的是用在讓他能夠順利起步無論是"},{"start":784.264,"end":809.058,"text":"智慧運用或是關鍵技術或是數位機盤這三大部分都能在AI新十大建設的十大項裡面都能夠開始發展我認為這未來20年30年影響台灣在國際關鍵技術上面的尤其是高科技領先地位上面能不能繼續保持這樣的優勢要接軌AI相關的技術百工百業的建制成本你認為我們都準備好了嗎"},{"start":810.256,"end":827.263,"text":"我們現在開始從AI新時代建設來做統合其實我們的科技預算經費當然是更大但有的是原來的計畫在進行當中我們先把它挪一部分在AI新時代建設就啟動一個新時代的科技建設計畫"},{"start":829.044,"end":851.923,"text":"面對美國新聞新關稅的這些政策市場的競爭行政院要推動AI新十大建設人工智慧對於提升產業競爭力有非常大的幫助那我請問院長百工百業導入AI相關技術會不會發生人力排擠的效應"},{"start":853.004,"end":871.758,"text":"會不會反而導致某些產業甚至於人力被淘汰那萬一人力排擠淘汰甚至於產業走向黃昏請問院長政府有沒有想過要到底要怎麼辦我們AI信息他建設的終極目標是希望成立進入到一個全民智慧的生活網"},{"start":872.659,"end":895.134,"text":"那過程當中我們有十大項其中有一項也是AI人才的培育跟資金的投入所以這個都是在整個配套過程當中的我們對於我們如何在現在硬體製造方面的領先我們繼續往軟體讓他能夠有一個登峰的一個企劃這個是AI新時代建設那將來當然會造成一些產業上的轉型跟升級"},{"start":895.774,"end":921.016,"text":"那這個都在我們規劃當中我們會有一些像我們在數月羈盤當中就有一個產業科技均衡的一個項目我希望這個院長這邊你們要做就是要好好的要細密一點的規劃你不要到時候這裡好那結果很多這個百工百業甚至很多人力就沒有辦法去"},{"start":922.817,"end":938.709,"text":"去做他們原來應該要做的我們會協助中小微企業進行它的轉型這個是必要的人力跟科技的轉型數位的轉型都必要我是認為這一點是很重要不要說只顧這裡沒有顧到其他面向結果造成很多問題變成衍生社會的問題產生"},{"start":940.57,"end":951.2,"text":"AI實在有AI的問題那我們會事先做一些防範轉型是必然的過程當中事前一定要好好細密的規劃好不好也請委員能夠支持這樣的一些建設計畫 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（14時30分）大會主席韓院長還有行政院卓院長，以及財政部所有的單位。請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["林委員德福：還有莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩請財政部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長你好。卓院長，我請教，因為媒體報導，財劃法修法的版本正由行政院副院長鄭麗君召集所有部會討論當中，全面盤點一般性補助款、整個計畫型補助款等等。請問院長，行政院針對財劃法修法的版本，是否有預定送進立法院的最後時限？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在行政院所討論的不只是一般性補助款，我們是衡酌原來的財劃法跟現行財劃法對各縣市地方政府造成的影響在哪裡，尤其現行財劃法就地方均衡不夠，所以我們是整個更宏觀地考量。目前包括財政部、主計總處，會擇時間跟地方政府的財主人員再進一步溝通之後，或許下禮拜我們就會在行政院正式討論……"],["林委員德福：好，我是認為……"],["卓院長榮泰：之後就送請大院進行審議。"],["林委員德福：院長，事不宜拖，你認為你們討論以後，最晚哪時候財劃法會送到立法院？"],["卓院長榮泰：我本來的要求是在這個會期之前，我們會儘快地在準備妥當的時候適時提出。我們現在朝越快地準備越好，因為我知道大院裡面也有相關的修法，如果能夠同時或者是相併討論會更為周延。"],["林委員德福：要是沒有什麼期限……請問你認為現階段在事權劃分不明確的情況下，會不會有類似美國政府整個停擺的狀況出現？你認為會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不希望……"],["林委員德福：當然不希望，大家都不希望，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不希望出現這個問題。不過，即使現在財劃法的修法，經過大院審議之後，對明年的中央政府總預算也起不了新的作用，它應該著眼在後年、未來的中央政府總預算跟地方的補助，才能夠應用更新的財劃法之修法。"],["林委員德福：因為在野黨去年推動財劃法修法的時候，有催促行政院版，行政院卻遲遲沒有提出來。本席當時質疑財政部是不是提不出來，還是卓院長要求不提？結果院長卻回答說，現行的版本就是最好的版本。那我請問院長，為什麼在野黨去年推動修法前，你堅持原來的版本是最好的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：我修正一下，我說原來的財劃法是實行起來最有把握的版本。去年12月20號大院在表決的時候，那一個禮拜陷入協調的困難期，因為發生了種種事情，所以行政院的立場沒有辦法透過執政黨黨團在協商當中提出，這是當初的一個遺憾，我們是有準備好版本的。至於內容，我們再經過修正之後，會落實在現在包括財政部、主計總處在研擬的新的財劃法的精神裡面。"],["林委員德福：如果原來的版本是最好的版本，現在鄭副院長就不必再找這些部會首長來討論，提出行政院的版本。其實那時候我們是要求、希望行政院能夠提出版本一併討論，但是當下行政院跟財政部真的沒有提出來。院長，也許你或執政黨的支持者會把現行財劃法出現一些瑕疵、難行的地方刻意凸顯、放大檢視，但是本席要強調的是，如果沒有本黨在立法院積極反映全國多數民意，推動各界正視財劃法修法的急迫性和必要性，我請問院長，民進黨執政的行政院會願意主動回應多數民意，提出財劃法的修正版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個委員恐有誤會。等一下可以請莊部長回答，在去年12月20日大院表決之前，行政院跟各地方以及我們內部經過了多少次的討論，有關當時的狀況，我請莊部長來回答。"],["林委員德福：其實我認為那也不必，因為我們在財委會裡面有討論過，你們要是有提出來，到時候可以併進去，大家來研商，看怎麼做最理想，中央和地方是要合作……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再重複一次，就是當初表決之前那一個禮拜，因為院裡面發生了一些議事上的爭執，所以沒有辦法進入到協商，而行政院的立場是想透過執政黨黨團在協商時提出，但是沒有機會提出。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，就好比普發現金1萬元好了，民進黨立院黨團和行政院起初也是反對到底，到最後風向球又改變了，變成同意，甚至現在連主計總處官員也說，隨著普發現金1萬元上路，應可發揮刺激內需的效果，有助於拉抬第4季民間消費的表現。那我請問院長，執政黨當初不分青紅皂白扣在野黨帽子，現在反過來蹭政策紅利的熱度，這是對全民負責的態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當初的想法是我們不舉債，用歲計賸餘就可以因應這次的中央政府總預算和特別預算，但是在大院表決的時候，卻一再希望行政院能夠普發現金，行政院不舉債的用心完全不被重視。與其如此，行政院就衡量大院所通過的那個特別條例，2,350億是不足以普發現金的，所以我們調整內容，變成2,360億。這是依照行政院調整之後，也用了增加政府舉債的方式，才有辦法來因應，這個部分是我們在公共政策、財政紀律上的考量，所以是行政院的版本。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，當初在野黨要求普發現金1萬元，主要是因為連續好幾年稅收超徵，連續4年超徵了一兆八千多億……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是超徵，是實徵數超過預算數。"],["林委員德福：對啊！確實啊！很明顯的是，行政院不是不能提財劃法修法版本，而是去年卓院長所謂最好版本的說法，本席的解讀是，看起來就像不願意把二十幾年來未修訂的財劃法重新客觀來檢討中央、地方政府應該要進行財政改革。院長，行政院副秘書長阮昭雄說，財劃法修法版本已和執政黨立院黨團取得一定的共識，但草案送到立法院後，是否獲得多數立委的認同，是一個很大的挑戰。那我請問院長，行政院這次財劃法的修法版本有沒有獲得多數地方政府的共識？這個很重要。你剛剛也有講，你認為要怎麼樣才能獲得多數立委的認同？這要怎麼去做？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得最重要的是，當全國所有縣市都放在公平的立場上，沒有誰最優越，也沒有六都直轄市那麼優越或最優越，22個縣市全部放在公平的角度上來計算地方的均衡，這樣才能得到所有縣市的支持。目前我們新的財劃法就是往這個方向在做。"],["林委員德福：院長，因為今天到這個會期延會結束，只剩兩個半月，財政部莊部長曾說估計年底前會送出行政院修法的版本，希望立法院能夠在這個會期三讀通過。我請問院長，您怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過，我希望在這個會期結束之前就能夠通過，現在我要看財政部、主計總處跟各縣市的財主單位談的結果，如果達到一致的話，我們會把時程提前，或許下禮拜我們就會進行正式的討論。"],["林委員德福：我希望這個要積極，然後多溝通，有問題提出來，看怎麼解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：能不能請部長談一下他如何積極溝通？"],["林委員德福：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員說明，有關財劃法在水平分配的部分，財政部已經召開了4次會議，最近一次也在10月邀請地方政府來開會，相關的指標還有權重已經獲得大部分的縣市能有共同的共識，而且我們在人口也好，土地面積也好，在計算上更為細緻。也就是人口上，因為老年人口或幼年人口需要更多的服務，以及土地面積裡面要分別土地的種類，譬如農牧用地、建築用地、林業用地都要有不同的權數，所以這個部分可以均衡城鄉的差距，而且這一次修法的目標很明確，第一個就是國民生活品質要能夠更均衡，不管在城市還是鄉村。另外垂直的分配要更合理，中央跟地方財政都要能夠有合理性。還有我們的水平分配要更公平，能夠讓各縣市都得到相同的支持。還有地方自治要更能夠強化，我們擴大他們的財政自主，但地方自治也要能夠強化。還有中央跟地方的夥伴關係要更能夠提升，我想中央跟地方都是一個夥伴的關係。這是我們的修法目標，我們會朝著這樣的目標來做。"],["林委員德福：我希望在最短的時間能夠取得共識，大家能夠認同、接受。","院長，因為明年編列AI新十大建設預算有311億元，你曾說這是未來國家發展的重中之重，8月下旬經濟部龔部長接受聯合報的專訪，也說明年開始要推動AI新十大建設，希望把AI相關的技術導入百工百業，讓產業升級轉型。就本席了解，產業轉型是指國家、地區或產業透過整個系統性的調整其產業的結構，將傳統或低附加價值的產業，轉變為新興或高附加價值產業的過程。我請問院長，產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎？既然要導入百工百業，你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億，能夠一步到位，或促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎？院長的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的支持，我們的AI新十大建設大體上分作三個區塊：第一個是智慧運用，第二個是關鍵技術，第三個是數位基磐。明年是一開始、第一年的預算，我們統合，一開始初期，當然預算沒有辦法編到那麼多，因為很多在計畫過程當中，未來逐年會視適時的需要而增加，我希望明年的311億，我們真的是用在讓它能夠順利起步，無論是智慧運用，或是關鍵技術，或是數位基磐，這三大部分都能夠在AI新十大建設的十大項裡面開始發展。我認為這未來二十年、三十年影響臺灣在國際關鍵技術，尤其是高科技領先地位上面能不能繼續保持這樣的優勢。"],["林委員德福：要接軌AI相關的技術，百工百業的建置成本，你認為我們都準備好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在開始從AI新十大建設來統合，其實我們的科技預算經費當然是更大，但有的是原來的計劃在進行當中，我們先把它挪一部分在AI新十大建設，啟動一個新時代的科技建設計畫。"],["林委員德福：院長，面對美國新關稅的這些政策、市場的競爭，行政院要推動AI新十大建設人工智慧，對於提升產業競爭力有非常大的幫助，我請問院長，百工百業導入AI相關技術會不會發生人力排擠的效應、會不會反而導致某些產業甚至人力被淘汰？萬一人力排擠、淘汰，甚至於產業走向黃昏。請問院長，政府有沒有想過到底要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們AI新十大建設的終極目標是希望成立、進入到一個全民智慧生活網，在這過程當中，我們有十大項，其中有一項是AI人才的培育跟資金的投入，所以這都是在整個配套當中，對於如何在現有硬體製造方面的領先，我們繼續往軟體發展，讓它有一個登峰的計畫，這個是AI新十大建設。當然，將來會造成一些產業上的轉型和升級，這個都在我們規劃當中，我們在數位碁盤當中，就有一個產業科技均衡的項目，我們會……"],["林委員德福：我希望行政院要做就要好好的、比較細膩的規劃，不要到時候這裡好，結果很多百工百業，甚至很多人力沒有辦法去做他們原來應該要做的，變成失業等等。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會協助中小微企業進行轉型，這個是必要的，人力跟科技的轉型、數位的轉型都是必要的。"],["林委員德福：好啦！我是認為這一點很重要……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，請委員能夠支持。"],["林委員德福：不要只顧這裡，沒有顧到其他面向，結果衍生出社會很多問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：AI的時代有AI的問題，我們會事先做一些防範，但轉型是必然的過程。"],["林委員德福：事前一定要好好的、細膩的規劃，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝，也請委員能夠支持這樣一個建設計畫，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、財政部長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請葛如鈞委員質詢。黃珊珊委員，請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}