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院長辛苦了本席今天要針對新住民的議題來跟院長做一個探討台灣的政府為了協助新住民適應台灣的生活其實擬定了很多友善新住民的政策例如像訂定新住民照顧服務"},{"start":1903.331,"end":1929.31,"text":"還有這個設置新住民發展基金還有辦理新住民生活適應輔導計畫那還有建置新住民賠利發展資訊網我前兩天才去參加了移民署所主辦的這個賠你銀向這個新生活的這個活動那甚至在小英總統的時代還把東南亞七國的語言列入了這個國中小的這個課綱這是世界的這個首例"},{"start":1930.01,"end":1952.012,"text":"去年我們也三讀通過新住民的專法所以我們也可以看得出來台灣政府其實對新住民都展現了很大的誠意希望新住民在台灣能夠好好的發展好好的生活賴清德總統在過去其實多次下鄉跟新住民面對面的座談"},{"start":1953.513,"end":1969.938,"text":"所以我們也看得出來賴總統對於新住民的支持跟關心甚至有一次在座談的時候新住民朋友有提到就是說因為我們新住民都是來自於世界各國"},{"start":1970.618,"end":1995.947,"text":"那來到台灣其實對語言也好或風俗習慣也好其實是非常的不適應那可是呢一來到台灣幾乎大部分的新住民都有面臨這個養育兒女的這個狀況尤其是孕育兒女的狀況那很需要自己的親親父母親呢到台灣來做這個陪伴我想這個都是基於這個親情的這個呼喚所以那時候呢總統聽了這個新住民的這個心聲之後呢"},{"start":2000.228,"end":2012.378,"text":"所以在這個大選2023年大選的時候呢就擬定了新住民的這個六大政策那其中有一項呢就是要鬆綁新住民直系尊親屬來台探親規定的這個停留的這個規定"},{"start":2016.221,"end":2039.713,"text":"那當然我們有跟這個相關的單位像這個內政部也好陸委會也好還有外交部我們都有提到說新住民其實需求並不是很多我們只希望能夠比照外專人才專法就是說外專人才延攬條例來台的新住民其實他們的父母親可以在台灣停留一年可是呢"},{"start":2040.273,"end":2056.943,"text":"我们来自于世界各国婚姻移民来到台湾的这些新住民呢其实我们的父母亲停留的时间也许只有三个月最长就是不超过六个月所以竟然透过专业人才演览条约莱特新住民"},{"start":2057.803,"end":2073.284,"text":"這樣子的這個這個條例為什麼我們沒有辦法來做比照所以我跟各個部會曾經做了很多的探討那當然這已經討論了一段時間我想了解就是說到底這個有沒有進展我們到底有沒有實施要實施的話是什麼時候會通過請問院長"},{"start":2076.055,"end":2099.304,"text":"謝謝委員我們都結成了歡迎要跟台灣當朋友要把鄧理當家鄉的任何新住民的朋友因為總統的原因來到這裡跟我們的生活融合在一起我們也會竭力的來照顧跟他們也融合在一起所以總統跟新住民朋友跟團體接觸的那個經驗也是我們普遍共同的經驗"},{"start":2100.524,"end":2117.461,"text":"那我們當然也希望從法制上能夠來做全面的檢討跟更新如果說剛剛您提到的這個來台灣遵清署來台灣的時間等等的問題我們在一個橫頻的比較底下內政部有沒有再進一步的來做規劃請部長來做說明"},{"start":2119.77,"end":2143.959,"text":"謝謝羅委員羅委員對於新住民的政策可以說是一個非常重要的推手我想羅美玲委員所關心的議題目前沒有錯新住民專遷署來台停留時間最長六個月羅委員多次跟我們的相關單位包括我們移民署都有做協調所以目前我們已經有跟相關單位的言商取得共識"},{"start":2144.759,"end":2173.635,"text":"就是希望說在台設有戶籍且懷孕或育有兩歲以下親生子女的新住民延長他父母在台停留期間的法令目前我們可能是朝著可以6個月再加6個月6加6對 以這個方向來處理現在相關的法制作業包括要修正入出國跟移民法的配合修法的程序已經陸陸續續完成可能最近公告出去的話就可以來執行"},{"start":2174.465,"end":2202.28,"text":"OK好謝謝部長我們聽到了一個非常開心的一個進展因為這個議題其實從總統提出來之後呢我們就一直在做討論所以那當然新住民朋友也是非常的關心一直在問說到底有沒有進展既然是總統的政見就一定要實現嘛我在想這是總統對新住民的這個承諾那再來還有就是說也有很多台灣的民眾有在想說如果是說我們讓這個新住民的尊卿署來台一年"},{"start":2202.7,"end":2223.753,"text":"那有沒有健保的這個問題這個部分是不是要說明一下呢目前為止我們並沒有討論這個進度了因為原來在六個月的停留期間他是屬於停留的身份所以沒有辦法適用健保那目前我們先以這個延長六個月到六個月的一個停留的期間所以還是停留的身份仍然是停留的身份"},{"start":2224.173,"end":2247.162,"text":"是我们只有拘留的部分才有健保的问题嘛对不对所以既然是停留就没有健保的问题所以说台湾民族所担心到时候会被造成健保的这个负担我想这个部分是没有的所以这没有健保劳健保的问题就对了这纯粹就是考量人道的考量让新住民的尊亲属可以有多一点的时间来陪伴自己的孙子自己的女儿或"},{"start":2247.962,"end":2268.469,"text":"这个自己的女儿所以我在想这个都是人道的这个考量那当然我知道说目前我们设定的就是家里育有两岁以下的新住民家庭就可以来申请纯粹就是说让这个尊亲属可以来做这个陪伴嘛对不对OK好谢谢以上谢谢OK那再来呢还有就是有关于这个劳动部"},{"start":2269.829,"end":2285.258,"text":"勞動部在2月的時候有預告婚姻移民新住民將納入救福法那我是不是要請一下勞動部長那也就是說在2月10號有公告就是為了落實保障新住民的就業權益"},{"start":2286.198,"end":2296.382,"text":"希望藉由提供各項的服務措施跟就業的獎勵補助計畫呢希望讓這個新住民呢也可以納入救福法的第24條就是資歷促進就業的這個對象其實勞動部呢"},{"start":2301.764,"end":2321.602,"text":"我們本來就有擬定促進新住民就業補助作業要點在新住民的這個身份上來講的話其實我們設定的是未涉及的新住民嘛對不對那現在我們要把這個新住民的納入救福法第24條那想請教一下就是新住民的這一個"},{"start":2322.342,"end":2338.458,"text":"定義經過這個新住民基本法通過之後其實它新住民的定義是有擴大來做解釋所以我想了解一下說我們把這個新住民納入救福法二十四條到底我們的身份定義有沒有改變好 跟倫報告"},{"start":2339.48,"end":2353.44,"text":"確實在民國97年的時候當時其實我們訂了一個對於新住民的就業補助的要點當時那主要是主要的範圍是設定是在他是這個未涉及他有居留但未涉及"},{"start":2354.221,"end":2382.649,"text":"那當然現在在新住民基本法通過之後那現在我們在今年的二月的時候我們把這個新住民在納入的救護法第一項的第十款裡面的這個特定的對象把它納進去以後現在的狀況是不管你有沒有涉及你都可以取得我們比方說雇用的獎助或者是我們職業訓練的這個生活的津貼你都可以有得到這相關我們的幫助所以它的範圍是擴大了"},{"start":2384.029,"end":2398.766,"text":"所以明確的來講我們還是設定是婚姻移民像利用其他比如說專業技術進來的新住民是不適用的嘛新住民配偶就是婚姻移民嘛因為婚姻移民基本上他們都選"},{"start":2399.866,"end":2414.097,"text":"因為剛我提到就是說新住民剛來到台灣其實他們因為語言的不通所以造成他這個就業其實他是屬於比較弱勢的所以我們有一些比較重要的一些補助比如說我有看到有臨時工作津貼職業訓練生活津貼僱用獎助還有"},{"start":2417.279,"end":2444.398,"text":"求職交通補助金就是在這個新住民的這個促進新住民就業補助作為要點本來就有的一些補助項目嘛那我們現在把這個救福法第二四條納入的新住民就像部長所提到的就是說不管你設不設局你有居留也好或者是入籍也好都可以納入可是只限婚姻移民嘛就是先住配偶的部分"},{"start":2445.198,"end":2464.495,"text":"那這部分什麼時候要實施?因為那時候2月10號公告的時候有說可能就是3月份的時候會來實施可是到目前為止好像還沒看到好,我們會來盡快我們實施的同時也會把原本那個要點就範圍比較限縮的那個要點會停止使用那我們會來盡快的趕快來把這部分實施所以這個時程大約是今年會通過嗎?"},{"start":2465.636,"end":2480.243,"text":"應該是會對因為對新住民來講就是一個很大的一個進展就像過去的話只有補助的是未涉及的新住民現在只要你是有新住民的身份其實當然我們還強調是婚姻移民的部分OK好"},{"start":2481.263,"end":2493.699,"text":"好謝謝部長那再來還有呢下一題的話可是也是跟勞動部或是我們內政部其實都有關係那下一題的話我想探討的是這個預期的這個"},{"start":2497.623,"end":2512.872,"text":"應該是說移工啦非法移工的這個部分這問題呢已經討論了非常久了像我們國內的話現在呢預期拘留的這個人口數呢去年其實是突破了14萬人那其中失聯的移工就超過了9萬人"},{"start":2514.687,"end":2535.365,"text":"好那剩下的是什麼呢可能就是因為來台灣利用觀光簽證或其他簽證進來然後就不離開留在台灣的所以我們這個預期居留的人口數是非常高的那相較十年前的話其實我們增加了將近的一倍就造成了一些這個邊境管理的一些困難"},{"start":2536.286,"end":2564.725,"text":"那当然雇主要重新寻觅这个移工其实也是不方便的那甚至还造成了一些治安的问题比如说像这个毒品炸漆甚至现在更是有充当黑道打手等等的这个治安问题那当然这个合法的这个移工如果说逃逸之后失联之后他就丧失了这个医疗的资源社会福利等等的这个保障那我常常见到很多一些医院的"},{"start":2565.385,"end":2582.41,"text":"像南投地方的一些醫院曾經也跟我澄清過他就說很多這個醫工到了這個醫院因為他並沒有這個合法的身份所以造成就是有一些醫療的一些費用醫院必須自己來承擔成了一些呆帳"},{"start":2583.73,"end":2600.086,"text":"可是基於一些人道的考量因為有時候他醫完病人也就跑掉了你也跟他要不到錢所以醫院也是有產生的一些呆帳等等那像這些當然為什麼會有這麼多的預期的這個拘留的人口我想我們應該可能要從源頭來"},{"start":2601.867,"end":2624.824,"text":"來重新來做思考那比如說我們現在引進的制度到底完不完善還有高昂的重借費還有薪資的待遇還有移工來源國的配合度等等像這些的話可能都會造成非法移工的產生因為只要逃獄了他就不用繳交高昂的重借費或者是說他覺得他的工作環境不好所以"},{"start":2625.424,"end":2648.269,"text":"他就去打黑工那當然所造成的這個問題是非常的這個複雜那這是台灣長年以來的問題可是我發現大家好像都是束手無策源頭無法管理那後面呢又產生這麼大的這麼大量的這個預期的居留人口那當然這個收容的也是一個很大的這個問題那我有看到就是說目前台灣呢"},{"start":2649.05,"end":2661.372,"text":"只有四個收容所台北、宜蘭、南投跟高雄這幾個收容所其實他們的收容量其實都不大像台北收容所"},{"start":2662.625,"end":2680.173,"text":"它只能容纳360人宜兰423南投480高雄450也就是说它最大的收容量四个收容所加起来也就1713人可是我刚才有提到我们的这个与其聚合人口有高达14万人你要如何去去化"},{"start":2681.033,"end":2703.066,"text":"如何去去化好源頭無法管理也無法去化那我們這個說到收容所我們最長的收容時間是只有28天就算遣送回國你也就是28天就把錢送回去甚至有些無法遣送因為拿不到他的旅行資料的也有理由真的拿不到可能就沒有辦法就是"},{"start":2704.744,"end":2717.914,"text":"回到他自己的母國可能繼續留在台灣時間到了你還得把他給放出去又造成另外一個社會的問題那我想請教想針對這個收容的這個這部分先請教我們部長"},{"start":2719.414,"end":2741.525,"text":"我們有沒有 你看我們的收容所只有四所那我們收容量也只有這麼多那針對這麼大的這個陶藝的這個預期的這居民人口我們要如何去去化這個部分要怎麼處理我知道像很多專情隊就是因為收容不足所以有時候明知道有這個陶藝移工他們也不去處理因為來了沒有辦法收容這個部分我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":2744.355,"end":2756.772,"text":"謝謝羅委員的指教委員所提到有關收容所不足的部分確實是行之有年再加上最近失聯移工確實比較多那因為台灣是有法制的國家所以我們不可能永久積留"},{"start":2758.313,"end":2784.821,"text":"再來遣送回去確實有一些困難因為他原來失聯移工的母國有的時候他不願意支付他遣送回國的費用所以說衍生我們的困擾目前內政部除了跟相關的勞政單位或者是觀光或者是交通單位有做比較好的源頭管理之外羅委員所關心的就是有關收容所的部分事實上在111年的時候第一階段我們已經有通過了所謂的請財政部的國有財產署"},{"start":2812.546,"end":2815.047,"text":"好 謝謝羅美玲委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第30號張家俊委員請質詢"},{"start":2832.952,"end":2836.594,"text":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好"},{"start":2848.456,"end":2876.055,"text":"主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情啊不曉得部長有沒有跟您"},{"start":2877.82,"end":2879.471,"text":"這個報告過他的評估的結果"},{"start":2881.079,"end":2909.155,"text":"在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎"},{"start":2909.815,"end":2926.569,"text":"如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼地方什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一"},{"start":2926.969,"end":2953.129,"text":"那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元"},{"start":2954.93,"end":2979.681,"text":"那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿"},{"start":2981.155,"end":3002.99,"text":"結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的"},{"start":3004.591,"end":3022.858,"text":"所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔"},{"start":3024.378,"end":3043.768,"text":"他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本"},{"start":3048.05,"end":3066.545,"text":"然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一"},{"start":3067.771,"end":3091.939,"text":"所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買"},{"start":3093.899,"end":3114.665,"text":"是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓...我是...沒有,我必須要講喔政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?"},{"start":3115.285,"end":3142.701,"text":"就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的"},{"start":3144.168,"end":3155.995,"text":"這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電"},{"start":3157.52,"end":3175.402,"text":"菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象"},{"start":3176.343,"end":3191.933,"text":"我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的在放電的這個成本並沒有那麼高您是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長"},{"start":3199.398,"end":3213.443,"text":"其實全世界各國包括日本、韓國、歐洲都在重啟核電那來確保能源穩定的時候台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來也不願意討論核能這樣子是為什麼呢?"},{"start":3220.045,"end":3243.992,"text":"這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術"},{"start":3244.972,"end":3268.598,"text":"可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估"},{"start":3272.739,"end":3273.399,"text":"報告委員 這些我們都有在評估"},{"start":3291.831,"end":3310.163,"text":"評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有"},{"start":3310.983,"end":3333.901,"text":"這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔"},{"start":3336.563,"end":3357.41,"text":"我想這個電價的問題,可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了,但我還是必須再問一次,就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少?目前它因為大部分的折舊已經折完了,所以它的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢,"},{"start":3359.499,"end":3368.504,"text":"1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電"},{"start":3378.258,"end":3389.588,"text":"那這樣子台電當然要困險啊我接下來也想想問院長請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價"},{"start":3396.667,"end":3407.439,"text":"店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容"},{"start":3410.888,"end":3428.026,"text":"這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億"},{"start":3429.688,"end":3450.561,"text":"台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長"},{"start":3459.836,"end":3462.281,"text":"台電不虧損的原因大家都知道"},{"start":3464.017,"end":3492.656,"text":"戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想"},{"start":3496.62,"end":3508.331,"text":"你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊"},{"start":3510.177,"end":3527.771,"text":"電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是我理解但是呢我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次喔"},{"start":3532.154,"end":3546.729,"text":"這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長、院長都說這個店家審議委員會會決定可是其實呢政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說"},{"start":3548.33,"end":3573.559,"text":"可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以藉今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內"},{"start":3575.356,"end":3597.179,"text":"我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論"},{"start":3599.655,"end":3612.884,"text":"目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲"},{"start":3628.554,"end":3642.227,"text":"院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的"},{"start":3643.388,"end":3661.099,"text":"也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要"},{"start":3664.983,"end":3680.701,"text":"這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說這個苦民所苦啊他們的這個一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個"},{"start":3682.483,"end":3706.218,"text":"打到腦門子上非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成"},{"start":3707.919,"end":3735.387,"text":"你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府"},{"start":3736.047,"end":3763.279,"text":"能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡"},{"start":3765.987,"end":3781.215,"text":"我跟委員報告我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職"},{"start":3782.677,"end":3807.392,"text":"我們共同期待但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議那我也希望說這個部分院長能夠大力的支持"},{"start":3809.687,"end":3826.446,"text":"院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重"},{"start":3827.247,"end":3849.935,"text":"我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 我聽這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明"},{"start":3850.655,"end":3876.531,"text":"我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保障"},{"start":3877.131,"end":3899.379,"text":"所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天"},{"start":3900.419,"end":3912.604,"text":"可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查"},{"start":3926.69,"end":3946.233,"text":"另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地這些你在講我都知道我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐"},{"start":3948.066,"end":3964.462,"text":"那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給光電業者"},{"start":3971.929,"end":3995.567,"text":"或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦我跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分"},{"start":4001.531,"end":4010.046,"text":"很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險"},{"start":4011.707,"end":4035.246,"text":"他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天"},{"start":4036.087,"end":4060.42,"text":"把你的精神都用在跟立法委員都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在"},{"start":4061.44,"end":4088.102,"text":"他們的立場來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦嗎我跟委員說明沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地"},{"start":4088.792,"end":4106.321,"text":"出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢"},{"start":4110.29,"end":4131.426,"text":"我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了"},{"start":4133.434,"end":4150.789,"text":"那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對"},{"start":4152.33,"end":4179.975,"text":"這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎"},{"start":4180.655,"end":4195.247,"text":"我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的 我們一定虛心接受如果它是一個錯假的話 我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面 我始終強調農漁優先 農漁優先"},{"start":4199.793,"end":4214.421,"text":"官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律"},{"start":4215.249,"end":4232.833,"text":"謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店"},{"start":4236.874,"end":4263.979,"text":"一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年呢"},{"start":4266.621,"end":4281.046,"text":"如何會不會漲還是電價生意委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億"},{"start":4285.77,"end":4309.476,"text":"是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":4310.216,"end":4331.871,"text":"我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實"},{"start":4333.312,"end":4356.269,"text":"一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容而且從人性的角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了 也拜託部長那接下來因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化"},{"start":4363.479,"end":4387.047,"text":"我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個"},{"start":4389.509,"end":4411.17,"text":"11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審經歷了多次的審查上次本席也在這裡問過您終於在6月解決了1.曲率半徑2.效益評估3.臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去交通部審查了然而過去了9個月"},{"start":4413.772,"end":4435.653,"text":"原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長"},{"start":4438.588,"end":4460.559,"text":"目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員"},{"start":4461.439,"end":4471.443,"text":"一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是"},{"start":4476.384,"end":4503.396,"text":"根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準"},{"start":4505.157,"end":4516.524,"text":"那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對"},{"start":4518.069,"end":4542.048,"text":"我必須要說的是鐵道高加化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展"},{"start":4542.828,"end":4562.026,"text":"把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上包委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係我願意放心 不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因"},{"start":4562.426,"end":4582.773,"text":"希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之一點八跟"},{"start":4584.013,"end":4612.734,"text":"時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來"},{"start":4613.587,"end":4629.714,"text":"是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以"},{"start":4631.174,"end":4650.633,"text":"這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市"},{"start":4659.045,"end":4685.671,"text":"好 謝謝張家軍委員質詢 謝謝卓院長跟部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第31號林楚英委員請質詢謝謝主席 主席有請卓院長好 麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4695.257,"end":4715.786,"text":"院長早 院長辛苦了本席今天要針對國家安全的議題來跟您請問我們知道昨天有一個非常重要的國際論壇那就是玉山論壇那麼玉山論壇當中我們看到許多民主友邦都提出了針對現在全球受到威權國家逼近那麼其實民主陣線是應該要站在一起的"},{"start":4716.266,"end":4726.675,"text":"那我們來看到就是昨天AIT的這個處長古麗妍也特別提到賴總統就打擊中國長期以來的間諜和影響力的行動所提出之倡議"},{"start":4728.342,"end":4752.648,"text":"那麼接下來其實我們就可以有機會美國跟台灣有進一步的合作其實這樣的說法剛好切合了日前我們賴清德總統特別去定調那麼中國就是所謂的敵對勢力而且呢中國對於台灣的威脅不論是統戰或是國安的方方面面其實他也具體地點出了包括主權的威脅間諜行動還有就是透過這個交流以及認知作戰等等"},{"start":4758.149,"end":4781.92,"text":"但是滿可惜的是昨天在野黨最主要的在野黨就是國民黨竟然說這個賴總統所說的這個幫中國定位為所謂的敵對勢力讓人民陷於危險之中因此他們要發動所謂的反戒嚴公投請問院長你怎麼看自助人助也會得到天助"},{"start":4788.379,"end":4794.411,"text":"這個就完全展示我們對於防衛我們自己的決心負責跟我們的信心"},{"start":4795.424,"end":4823.743,"text":"很多友邦或友門國家當他考慮到要維持印太地區是台海的和平穩定的時候台灣當然是最關鍵的一個角色跟地位這種戰略地位我們自己要認清楚也因為這個樣子我們更要珍惜我們在這裡所做的各種努力至於外交的工作我想部長做得非常的好做得非常辛苦但是成就就一直展現出來那請部長來說明一下現在外交對我們的協助"},{"start":4825.864,"end":4848.207,"text":"部長回答之前我想先問院長啦所以你認為台灣現在戒嚴了嗎?需要反戒嚴公投嗎?剛剛說過在國內的政黨只有中國國民黨有戒嚴的經驗或許只有他不知道戒嚴的痛苦目前的台灣沒有戒嚴的時空任何條件所以我說他是在一個黑暗的房間裡面找一隻不存在的黑貓"},{"start":4849.087,"end":4872.855,"text":"好 所以說其實台灣如果有戒嚴那還有哪裡來的公投其實我認為這個完全是邏輯錯亂本末倒置我們來看下一張喔那麼其實這個昨天這個假日啊這個民眾看到我們的卓院長揮出光劍希望帶台灣持續向前我先來問一個輕鬆的話題其實蠻多網友都問說光劍哪裡來的"},{"start":4876.636,"end":4895.923,"text":"也有在野黨說預算都刪工了居然還有光劍可以買院長還是有社會正義人士可以把這個他專屬的光劍借給我們用謝謝這位馬可多大師好所以說是有大師出借專業人士出借希望我們拿的光劍是"},{"start":4897.082,"end":4917.312,"text":"自由與我們同在 民主與我們同在好 正義的原理會與台灣同在但是我知道這個口號國家要安全 台灣要向前我真的覺得非常的重要本席特別整理了就是現在中國滲透的樣態包括在退降裡面吸引退降主親中的政黨"},{"start":4918.713,"end":4938.951,"text":"國軍裡面有透過地下權裝來吸引國軍來做訊息的交換甚至於洩密在媒體裡面現在有所謂的在地協力者協助中國的榮媒體來做唱和在產業裡面現在媒體也報導了甚至於在華碩工會裡面有中配在裡頭宣揚統戰"},{"start":4941.733,"end":4970.319,"text":"甚至於連武統都在所不惜那至於僑界有最新的訊息媒體也報導了就是統戰的勢力已經滲透了海外僑社跟中國的組織在做聯動昨天我質詢習家青委員長的時候也特別提到了在海外雙十國慶現在變成是中國也要滲透結合抗戰勝利八十週年這種荒謬的言論另外當然金融界"},{"start":4970.839,"end":4989.379,"text":"也有所謂的科技的滲透所以我想問一下就是面對這種全方位的滲透總統也宣示了就是要來做正面的因應的時候那麼行政院有跨部會的因應嗎除了國安會議之外"},{"start":4990.31,"end":5015.729,"text":"我在當時開會的時候我就說我們會要求所有相關的所有的部會一定要列專案來執行而且我會要求要定期的考核 限期的完成所以我們這個禮拜就會開始相關的作業我希望在一定的時間內把17項內容有關的各部會都要訂定出一個未來執行的計畫而且能夠看到它執行的時間"},{"start":5016.55,"end":5041.527,"text":"好 謝謝這個院長非常明確的答覆就是其實我們這個整個內閣是這個光劍一出要對這個所謂中國的滲透必須要有所作為那下一張我們來看的就是其實我剛剛最後一個提到有關於金融面的問題我不知道院長是不是知道在前一陣子媒體特別報導了有一個"},{"start":5043.427,"end":5069.91,"text":"從中國的財政部底下進入先持股進入國家的中小企業發展基金這個國家是中國的財政部中國的國家然後再往下到了深圳國中小企業發展私募基金然後這一間公司呢它雖然號稱是新加坡的公司然後來台灣開此公司"},{"start":5070.951,"end":5100.359,"text":"那麼現在會不會是另外一個就是我們知道資安及國安金融的安全更為重要那麼就是台灣的業者如果跟這間新加坡的公司來他的所謂信用卡的核心關鍵技術那麼會不會變成是一個中國滲透進入台灣的一個方法甚至於成為一個樣板我不知道院長知不知道這樣的一個個案跟案例"},{"start":5107.351,"end":5124.375,"text":"其實我們在金融監理上面對任何比如說我們金融機構委外我們是不限國家地區我們是全面的有要求他們必須針對這些自動安全的系統有一些規範特別是高風險的地區我們更是要求他們要做"},{"start":5124.975,"end":5153.463,"text":"像這件事情發生以後我們也全面的去了解國內的金融機構相關的這些的他們執行我們也加強了金融機構的一些安全的這些的控管希望他們能夠持續的把這些強化好所以說目前現在來自新加坡號稱是新加坡但是背後是有中資的影子帶的這樣的一個公司本來要進入台灣的信用卡系統目前"},{"start":5154.983,"end":5183.324,"text":"還會持續進入嗎?還是其實金管會已經做了一些必要的措施?其實跟委員說明一下其實這件事情呢我們立刻就請他一定要務必要這個清查背後的這些的問題而且他們這個系統根本沒有上線就是而且我們要求說這有沒有資安的風險不是你自己說了算你必須找第三方的公正他們也做出了這樣的一個查核發於這個系統並沒有相關的後門安全但是呢"},{"start":5183.744,"end":5197.168,"text":"這件事情他沒有上線所以這個部分應該是被阻缺這家公司的背後的關係系統經濟部已經相當有了解我們請郭部長我想新加坡"},{"start":5199.734,"end":5219.515,"text":"類似任何科技這些是不是入資公司經濟部經過調查以後確定新加坡商任何科技公司是具有入資控制力的確實為入資公司所以我們將依兩岸條例第93條之一的規定處以新台幣217萬元的發援"},{"start":5222.844,"end":5233.549,"text":"好 所以言下之意確實背後是有中資的影子在裡面我們都知道其實台灣的金融是高度尖利這樣的一間公司我們來看下一張"},{"start":5235.094,"end":5261.325,"text":"他本身他的合作夥伴就通通都是來自於中國那麼當他來自於中國的時候很可能台灣就是他的下一塊想要前進的部分所以在金融如何來避免所謂非紅供應鏈我們知道我們現在在基礎建設我們在國防安全的部分其實都已經開始強調要去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":5262.205,"end":5280.232,"text":"但是在金融系統裡面呢因為其實本席特別去找到2019年其實也發生過受險系統受險的核心系統採用到了中國的相關的技術跟系統所以這個部分"},{"start":5281.567,"end":5302.059,"text":"它並不是一個偶發事件它其實是一個整體的親融國安的部分所以本席就要請問不論是郭部長或者是彭主委我們在親融系統上面我們的IT防範上面如何來避免紅色供應鏈的入侵現在有個方法嗎比如說這一次這個案子恐怕"},{"start":5302.879,"end":5317.473,"text":"如果他在申請的時候他是以設立公司那麼設立公司我們可能就不一定會經過投審會的相關的審查而且當時業者也說勘查這一間所謂任何科技它並沒有在我們所謂的"},{"start":5318.735,"end":5334.797,"text":"紅色供應商裡面所以他就認為他是安全的那麼接下來我們既然發現了這個問題之後想請問部長或是主委有沒有一個方式能夠保障台灣金融系統的安全是跟委員說明"},{"start":5335.327,"end":5363.759,"text":"其實我們在過去我們是不限國家地區我們本來就定有金融機構支通系統服務供應鏈風險管理的規範這部分而且我們也會收集相關的案例特別對這些高風險我們已經開始會採取這些動作像這次為例其實我覺得他們警覺性剛開始確實是需要被強化但是我覺得這件事情從表面上來看可能就是我們未來金融業我們要特別透過這個案例呢告訴他們要特別的強化在我剛才"},{"start":5364.259,"end":5372.365,"text":"要跟委員特別強調我們在經管這個這部分有兩個重點一個是資安一個是只要任何碰觸到客戶資料的部分我們都會"},{"start":5372.952,"end":5396.688,"text":"做更嚴格的管理謝謝好最後本席要建議這個院長那就是喔當我來跟業者詢問的時候他會提到的是他們其實是找不到合適的廠商來做合作那我們都知道台灣是IT大國科技大國如果一個信用卡的系統又或者是受險的系統當我們找不到國內MIT的廠商的時候當然國外的"},{"start":5400.09,"end":5419.557,"text":"其他非中國的國家非紅色供應鏈如果有價格的問題的時候是不是也可以請數位部應該來做一個整合我相信台灣應該做得出來信用卡等所謂資訊相關需要的系統或者是受險所謂保障客戶的這種系統是不是"},{"start":5420.057,"end":5441.322,"text":"是應該的 我們會請跨部會來互相的協助當金融單位有這樣的需求的時候我也請主委來協調 跨部會來協助提供必要的資源廠商這樣才能確保我們的資通案的安全好 那因為時間有限我想要跳到我的最後一張PTT那就是我們知道現在有許多的這些公民團體在發起"},{"start":5443.442,"end":5450.045,"text":"他們屬於自己的罷免權但是從二階的罷免開始其實從一階開始之後不斷地陸續有出現騷擾的行為"},{"start":5456.524,"end":5476.756,"text":"從3月17號我開始整理這樣一系列一直到去年其實要不就是支持者打人說我是中國人我來鬧場甚至於有志工在路上發禪單就被揮拳然後被當頭K頭然後甚至於是有抄著中國口音的人來鬧場"},{"start":5479.198,"end":5507.997,"text":"我覺得這是蠻諷刺的啦就是中國連自己的總統都選不出來但是呢卻在台灣滋事那到底他是真的中國人還是台灣人假扮中國人這個恐怕是要由相關的執法單位來做說明但是我要請院長回應的就是台灣是一個自由民主而且受到法律保障的國家雖然國民黨昨天他們在所謂發起"},{"start":5509.558,"end":5529.169,"text":"公投罷免提案的時候他說要反廢死要還命於民啊但是我們剛剛羅烈看到的這些都是國民黨的支持者我是蠻想呼籲國民黨還命於民之前要不要先還安全於人民難道說台灣民眾自發性的發起他們要"},{"start":5530.049,"end":5554.721,"text":"展現他們的罷免權卻要被國民黨的支持者來痛打又或者是自稱中國人在台灣這片土地來毆打我們的台灣民眾嗎我覺得這個部分講到這裡我非常的憤怒我也認為院長應該要做一些說明好 政府的責任在保障每一位國民合法行使他國民的參政權利"},{"start":5556.055,"end":5570.371,"text":"政府的責任也在保障每一場合法的活動所有到場的人人身安全如果有這種滋擾的事件那麼要求我們的警政單位檢調單位一定要負起責任部長在這裡請部長來說明"},{"start":5571.032,"end":5598.287,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的關心我們已經三令五申包括警政署對於有關安全的部分一定要馬上處理那我們也鼓勵各種罷免的活動合法罷免活動的志工如果有碰到這樣狀況的話能夠拍照或是錄音錄影然後到現地的派出所馬上報案那我們依照相關的規定馬上來辦理確保在所有的公民活動上面的安全好謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":5599.857,"end":5624.967,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第32號黃建豪委員請質詢好 院長好 我們請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5636.219,"end":5655.85,"text":"本席其實一直長期的關心我們行政院對於性別平等政策的一些政策那從過去頒布的行政院性別平等政策綱領到去年行政院公布的性平數的考核有11個部會連續兩年列以等或不列等我想說我們其實對這個性別議題是非常的重視"},{"start":5656.61,"end":5674.082,"text":"那我想昨天有一個新聞有一個時事啊因為沒有放PPT上我跟院長直接報告院長你也有注意到昨天一個新聞就是這個執政黨的總召啊他是認為說媽媽就應該回去當家庭主婦那我不知道說院長你對於這樣子的言論或這樣子的看法你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":5675.182,"end":5702.552,"text":"對不起媽媽應該回媽媽就應該回歸家庭當家庭主婦昨天有一位這個執政黨的立法院黨團總召在開記者會的時候針對了台中市長盧秀燕嘛因為盧秀燕市長的這個綽號大家都叫盧媽媽媽媽市長那所以柯建民總召就說這個媽媽就應該回歸家庭回去當家庭主婦我不知道院長有沒有掌握到這個新聞那他講這樣的話院長你對於這樣的性別議題這樣的性別議事有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":5704.779,"end":5723.025,"text":"這或許是柯總召對他母親的愛的回憶吧我的確這麼說啦我說每個人媽媽的定義不一樣有的媽媽對他母親就是這樣的感覺他說他不一定是在這個這個女性表現這麼優異的時候所有的時代但是我們不能剝奪一個人他對他媽媽的"},{"start":5724.389,"end":5740.028,"text":"沒錯 那你覺得他可以指涉別人別人的媽媽去做別的什麼事情嗎他有權去定義別人的母親別人的媽媽應該扮演什麼樣的角色嗎那我在問柯總統他有在指涉哪一位他有講他指名道姓啊他指名道姓是魯秀妍啊"},{"start":5740.626,"end":5754.451,"text":"那我要講說今天我想問針對性別議題我想這邊也有資料啦因為行政院過去提供給本席的包含各部會3D機關所屬的委員會政府捐助或出資超過50%的財團法人及國民事業董事與監視性別比例的相關資料"},{"start":5758.832,"end":5786.986,"text":"我今天特別提出來我也是要提醒院長以行政院本院的這個達成所謂的三分之一的單一性別的比例來講的話行政院本院的達成率只有43.24%所以我想在這個數據上面我想還是差強人意所以我也希望藉由這個事件來提醒說我們行政院作為這個國家一級行政機關應該要以身作則把這樣的性別議題要重視我想"},{"start":5787.546,"end":5811.013,"text":"如果院長願意帶頭重視的話那我想我們的民意代表們就比較不容易去做這樣的發言好不好 院長謝謝委員的提醒我也常常自己在提醒自己我們有所不足的地方那麼一定要按照我們過去所說以及我們應該做的要來盡快的逐步達到好 謝謝院長 我們一起為性別一點的努力啦好 那接下來我們進入今天的主題我想"},{"start":5811.673,"end":5822.098,"text":"院長看到最近的新聞提到說不只電價我想水價好像也在討論說要來調漲那台水公司的意思是目前看到新聞稿說現在每賣一度電會虧2.45元2024年的稅後虧損39.49億那2025年"},{"start":5827.521,"end":5844.193,"text":"預估今年會再虧損59.3億那合計起來將近會虧損100億所以可能有在討論說水價要調漲那我要請教說其實我們從這個台水公司2024年公布的永續報告書裡面來看到其實在這個2019年到2023年的損益表裡面"},{"start":5846.394,"end":5875.273,"text":"在2019到2022年這段時間我想台水公司的這個損益這個虧損並沒有明顯的上升是直到2022年到2023年之後才產生嚴重的虧損那甚至2023年2024年跟近年預計的2025年都會有虧損的問題我想問一下我們院長也可以請教一下部長到底為什麼水公司在這幾年的這兩三年的虧損突然的增加那增加之後是不是真的要調漲水價"},{"start":5879.259,"end":5891.337,"text":"這幾年我們因為有一些新的作為包括再生水的製造 包括一些海水氮化廠海水氮化廠以目前為止 譬如以澎湖為例"},{"start":5892.08,"end":5921.534,"text":"我們要照顧這個澎湖的這個居民所以我們賣給他的水價是全國統一的但是我們的製造的這個成本是差不多將近10倍所以因為這個需求這個極端氣候的改變讓我們現在的這個氣候變化非常的大但是我們我想院長體恤所有的國人的這個水跟電的價格所以水價我們到目前為止31年都沒有漲過這我知道"},{"start":5922.054,"end":5950.066,"text":"那我們的這個成本現在的成本因為改變很多海水淡化或者這個水資源的投入這個成本就升高了那麼導致於我們台水公司在這幾年成本確實因為這個氣候改變然後我們要維持這個當大家喝到好的水沒關係 我請教一下我也請教一下院長安部長像比如說海水淡化廠那還有包含說我們各地的這些水利工程"},{"start":5950.987,"end":5973.429,"text":"這個預算到底是用水公司的錢在做還是用政府的公務預算在執行我們的這個水公司當然有配合工程但我說錢從哪裡出比如你剛提到像海水淡化廠或者是我們各地的淨水廠或者是我們這些輸水的這些管線"},{"start":5974.736,"end":5989.031,"text":"各地的水利工程相關的這個費用這一部分很大的部分當然是公共建設但是接管回來以後變成是我們台水要配合他"},{"start":5990.152,"end":6014.909,"text":"一樣要付出很高的成本我們現在的水基本上那個海水進來的可能是公共建設但是進到我台水的水處理廠以後的成本是屬於我台水的我大概處理一噸的水要七八十塊錢但是我只能賣十塊錢這個是我們非常大的負擔"},{"start":6016.63,"end":6039.218,"text":"那現在因為我還是跟委員報告因為極端氣候嘛所以那個水什麼時候會下大雨什麼時候我們現在又不能夠去抽取地下水所以這個造成我們這個成本非常的高我要打斷你一下不好意思喔就是說其實你提到極端氣候但是我們看到這兩年的水情啊就我剛剛提到的過去從2019到2022年中年還發生過乾旱喔但是2019到2022年這段時間台水公司的這個財報裡面看起來的虧損是不嚴重的"},{"start":6045.7,"end":6072.551,"text":"或是幾乎沒有虧損但是反而到2022年之後我想降雨都非常穩定嘛每年都我看經濟部臉書也常講說今年的這個水庫沒問題中部沒問題南部沒問題水水沒問題那但是在這種情況下面水需要調漲我想民眾沒辦法理解啦所以我是不是可以請你們再說明一下到底哪個部分的成本增加了所以你們必須調漲增加我們一開始譬如說這個水管老舊送水的部分所以我們要更新嘛"},{"start":6073.211,"end":6088.626,"text":"不更新的話突然間這個水管爆了啦年久失修的部分其實還蠻多的啦所以我們水價沒有辦法調整我們的成本不斷的在增加我們要維護讓我們的所有的國人用水方便水龍頭整個就有水這樣這是興奮很大的事情"},{"start":6091.329,"end":6113.156,"text":"所以麻煩這個大院能夠同意我們當我們如果能夠提出來這個水能夠調整價格那讓大家能夠隨時就能夠喝到好的水隨時要用水方便的話其實我們現在這個水價確實是偏低的好沒關係我們就等你們的報告啦因為我想台水這樣進去的這個大家說明人事也會增加"},{"start":6114.416,"end":6136.761,"text":"設備的更新 設備的維護 設備的採購都會增加那我們現在一度水 平均下來一度水是十塊錢一度水是一公噸一公噸是一千CC的一千瓶再十塊錢 確實是便宜了如果合理的調整對員工的試劑以及鼓勵大家節約用水應該有正面的拜託院長謝謝 院長我想在調整水價之前我想"},{"start":6137.461,"end":6166.337,"text":"因為目前還沒有看到詳細的報告我想也還在擬定當中我想希望你們要跟國人交代清楚為什麼這兩年就我剛提到的2022年之後反而虧損增加到底哪個環節出問題我想這是希望我們會做詳細的說明明確說明那當然水價談完之後當然大家最關注的還是即將來的電價上漲的原因電價上漲我想這個原因在講說是國際燃料價格大漲但是我們看到這個全球的這些這個能源價格的費用我想這兩年"},{"start":6166.997,"end":6193.177,"text":"烏俄戰爭之後2024年2025年結束之後還沒結束啦但是這兩年2024跟2025的部分我想這個能源價格其實還是下降很多很多的比起正在戰爭的當下2021、2022、2023的時候我想下降非常多所以每次說橋長價格就是說是因為國際燃料價格上漲我想一般民眾多數人看到這個數字跟這個趨勢一般來講是比較難接受的那如果我們從這個台電的發電結構的成本來看我想這個表"},{"start":6197.26,"end":6218.762,"text":"你們也看了非常多次了的確在那幾年我們的燃氣不管是台電自發或者是購物電力的確都有稍微上漲但是我想最影響最大的可能還是我們的光電成本或是風電成本我特別把它mark出來用黃色的底子把它放出來"},{"start":6219.583,"end":6237.7,"text":"風力發電,我們外購的,購入電力的風力發電成本到這個1130的這個自編預算裡面是6.5,平均成本是6.59那太陽光電,過去低就是5.74,那現在降到4.87還是高,有下降,但還是很高那另外一個有趣的,而且無法"},{"start":6238.32,"end":6255.866,"text":"大家會覺得奇怪說但像自發的太陽光電你的成本3.94你購物的卻是4.87中間有將近一塊錢的價差這個部分是不是可以請經濟部說明一下為什麼會有這樣子的成本的變動不一樣的問題那如果這個成本能夠下降的話是不是就有機會電價不用調漲"},{"start":6260.069,"end":6279.821,"text":"電價的調漲當然是反映成本這是第一個目的但是我們會不會調整電價不是我們經濟部的計算就能夠調整電價而是由電價審議委員參佐所有的產業跟所有民生的需求以後他來定出來一個價格"},{"start":6280.842,"end":6300.908,"text":"但是台電為什麼現在的虧損,確實是累積過去這幾年來,因為烏鱷戰爭,因為這個整個燃料的價格上來。那麼政府為了體恤這個國人,所以我們在民生的部分有動漲,那產業的部分其實我們也調控了。"},{"start":6301.508,"end":6325.077,"text":"所以在這個累積下來的都是在補貼讓電價不漲的在那幾年但是這幾年我們雖然得到大院的同意補助了三千億但是我們實際在那幾年是六千億的這個成本的付出所以這個我們現在持續的在請大院能夠同意來撥補一千億是在於撥補我們的財務面"},{"start":6326.698,"end":6351.646,"text":"那我們當然台電 我們要反省我們的創電成本您剛才所說的這個創電的成本確實是我們在考量的我們如何來調適讓它的一個價格能夠穩定這個高成本的部分我們呢 這個滿足需要的這個客人部長 你剛剛提到過去累積的虧損啊那我們看到目前的這個數字你剛剛講6000多億我看那個4429啦"},{"start":6355.347,"end":6369.817,"text":"我們看到的資料是先429億累積虧損是429億那去年不管是在追加預算還是今年在省所謂的114年總預算裡面在院長跟部長的任內你們提到了去年提出來的數字是2000嘛"},{"start":6370.738,"end":6393.163,"text":"你們本來說如果給你2000那可能這個兩年內店家不會上漲但是我們如果就數字來看數字如果累積虧損4429億那假設一切都順利兩黨三黨大家都非常和諧的通過了最佳預算也通過了總預算撥補了2100進去台電那你還是有2429億的虧損那2429億的虧損之外呢我們也看到今年1月的這個財報台電的財報我們再次看一樣我們就數字論數字嘛"},{"start":6399.665,"end":6411.536,"text":"光是今年一月的財報的部分,我想一月還不算用電的高峰一般來講我們認知商量不是用電高峰但是光一月如果含發電成本,你的虧損一月份而已又增加了112億的虧損112億的虧損裡面,其中太陽光電虧損了5.8億風力發電虧損58億"},{"start":6421.064,"end":6436.375,"text":"外購的燃氣虧損17億燃煤虧損7.9億等等的唯一沒有虧損的是什麼呢大概是核能發電發電不多但它是唯一有盈餘的盈餘大概7億多然後水力發電當然非常非常少啦但是這兩個都是有盈餘的"},{"start":6436.855,"end":6457.042,"text":"所以如果按照現在這種人員成本結構我們常常講嘛因為這個你已經虧損了那想辦法是開源和節流那開源當然就透過可能預算的波幅是開源漲電價是開源但是節流就我們提到啦如果今天我今天2000就像部長你提過的嘛如果2000給你然後你兩年不漲價可是問題是你的虧損是持續在累積耶"},{"start":6459.702,"end":6480.207,"text":"我想我們這個整體的能源的政策我們除了多元的發展以外我們還有一個節能的部分節能的部分我們希望能夠讓大家能夠正確的來使用好的電所以我們希望靠節能這樣然後來協助我們台電能夠在經營上面"},{"start":6485.228,"end":6498.463,"text":"能夠面對他的客戶的轉型然後協助他們這個用的這個電是具有可以這個那個節能當然是要做啦但是我後面有一張圖會跟大家講跟你講說因為我們的綠電我們的綠電是這樣我們的綠電是要賣給這個所謂的RE100的這些這個需求的"},{"start":6506.832,"end":6518.505,"text":"所以我雖然這個發電的成本高了一點但是那個是客人需要的就是說我們台灣因為是出口的國家所以你到歐盟的國家幾乎都是一定要用這個綠電你剛剛在說的這個核電的部分"},{"start":6522.289,"end":6543.514,"text":"它在歐盟是不被接受的它只是一個乾淨是一個潔淨的能源但是到歐盟是不行的歐盟它就是要綠電所以我們還是要發展這個綠電給我們國內的廠商有助於它做出口這個部分請委員能夠了解虧損的部分不是只有綠電虧損當然你說你要賣R100然後賣給這些綠電廠他們需要這個樣的電"},{"start":6550.615,"end":6573.617,"text":"所以回到你的財報上我是看不出來說這對台電公司的財務有明顯改善財報的表現跟委員報告財報的表現是根據會計法他做這樣的一個表現當然如果委員對這方面有興趣我們當然可以這個據實的跟委員做一個詳細的報告也許委員可以執政哪一些地方我們可以去improve"},{"start":6573.917,"end":6592.506,"text":"我相信我今天要讓台電能夠好好變成一個恢復到過去好的公司我有很多的管理構面從產銷人發 到Logistics我通通能夠來幫助他降低成本這一部分就是不是只有能源政策才能夠解決這個問題"},{"start":6594.167,"end":6611.3,"text":"如果委員支持 我們都歡迎討論我要支持什麼 我要支持希望你們要比照全球的趨勢我們等一下要下降嘛 我們看一下部長不好意思齁 這個因為時間真的不多 我們有去慢慢討論我們可以看到一下全球的這個趨勢啦我們從這個"},{"start":6613.982,"end":6640.422,"text":"再次能跟總署看到的數字從2010年到2023年的數字全球的光電它的成本是理論上下降90%的那離岸風電的理論上成本平均下來下降63%但反觀台灣其實我們下降的幅度幾乎沒有這樣的幅度坦白說我們現在是用很高昂的價格在採購或是在購買外購這些綠電的成本報告委員我想每一個人對資料取樣的方式不太一樣"},{"start":6641.443,"end":6658.912,"text":"那如果說委員您上面有寫這個IRENA的資料我們會來參考一下然後來檢視我們目前到底為什麼跟這個我們目前實際運作的成本不如那委員您所指教的這個部分不是 不是指教啦 我希望說提供"},{"start":6659.512,"end":6685.268,"text":"公開資訊嘛因為這個是對於全球人比其他先進國家的成本為什麼會比較低呢因為台灣的這個區域啊我們台灣的區域我們的地理地理區域事實上建制的成本都是比其他這個所謂大的這個這個大的島譬如說你到澳洲澳洲這麼大的一個島然後他發展太陽能光電有沙漠的地方發展太陽光電那個成本也非常非常的低"},{"start":6686.309,"end":6708.903,"text":"那我們譬如說在做這個陸域風電或者做這個離岸風電也是一樣因為我們的這個水底的資源不太一樣所以我的發電的成本一定高於歐洲的平均成本我們是不是就要來部長你這樣講我也同意所以我們是不是就要很坦誠的跟民眾告知說我們因為現在就是因為要發展再生能源所以我的電價你就要上漲"},{"start":6709.543,"end":6724.756,"text":"不要每次都講一些什麼為了照顧民生啊因為藍白卡預算啊因為什麼奇怪的原因所以店家上漲確實如果是如同部長所說的因為我們的地理環境限制所以我不管發展光電或發展風電我的成本就是這麼高那這個成本最終還是要回饋到店家上面"},{"start":6725.396,"end":6740.574,"text":"你要坦白說你要發展這個事情報告委員所以我們為什麼在2030年定下來我再生能源從現在的20%提到30%主要還是因應國內出國廠商出國到歐盟相關的廠商他們的需求"},{"start":6741.468,"end":6770.604,"text":"我們現在20%努力在建置到明年我要讓這個這個再生能源到20%但是2030年我們要滿足到30%也就是說2050年我要把現在的這個你剛剛提到說是為了廠你剛剛提到說是為了我們廠商出口的這個這個需求啦那如果是這樣的話那你漲民生電價不就沒道理了嗎因為對一般民眾來講這是你出口廠商的利益啊那你對一般民生來講你卻漲我一般人使用的民生電價那我想這是有點本末倒置啦好不好"},{"start":6772.785,"end":6794.703,"text":"對民生的部分 民生他既然不需要用到完全純綠電所以我們當然在這個售價上面我們會有一些不同的價格好 再來 部長你提到這個電力不足 院長也清楚我們剛剛上一個 詹樂圈我也提到我們最近看到新聞說菲律賓買電 你的目標價格是每度4塊錢"},{"start":6796.284,"end":6799.387,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會在這裡再次澄清我們那一份報告基本上是在做可行性分析的報告"},{"start":6822.113,"end":6847.125,"text":"那麼我們在做可行性分析以後確定技術面可行然後我們接著會探討風險會探討風險那我想這個所以你現在探討而已嘛還沒有要做是不是我們現在還在評估啊然後接著我們會實地的去這個survey然後看看成本是不是如這個評估報告裡面可以做得到"},{"start":6847.805,"end":6864.818,"text":"那麼以上都做到以後我們會鼓勵國內的廠商我們把它整合變成國家隊讓他去做大面積的這個重點部長我先確定一下你的目標你的風險或是你各方面的評估你的四塊錢是目標嗎我再跟你講"},{"start":6866.398,"end":6890.245,"text":"5塊5的這個所謂傳送回來這個店的資料是指日本他們目前從北海道送到這個九州的這個店前我要問最終成本我要問對我國對台電或對經濟部你去菲律賓採所謂做這個事情你的最終目標價是多少錢我最終目標價再一次在這裡跟你報告就是4塊錢到岸下超過4塊錢4塊錢到家我想這樣子啦"},{"start":6895.76,"end":6908.47,"text":"就一樣看如果回到剛剛醫院的財報來看的話以現階段來講4塊錢大概是我們外購的燃氣4.05元還有灌腸水利3.97元按照這個價錢來講還是虧損的啊不是啊對台電來講還是虧損的啊報告委員我是綠電喔回來是綠電喔所以綠電的價格是比較高的"},{"start":6917.184,"end":6922.928,"text":"綠電價格是可以賣比較高的賣給企業還是賣給一般 賣給台電公司賣企業 賣企業你那個綠電回來是直接是一樣透過台電的機制去賣綠電給企業還是有其他的方式直接給企業"},{"start":6933.339,"end":6959.849,"text":"我這是解決企業的問題嘛企業才有需要綠電一般的民眾他不需要綠電所以人力標價格是說他這個電回來之後是四塊錢的綠電也將四塊錢的價格賣給相關企業是不是你的計畫是這樣子不是不是我們四塊錢以後還要加上我們台電的電網成本輸電的成本所以我的賣的價格一定是高於四塊錢"},{"start":6961.894,"end":6987.489,"text":"成本呢?成本你說4塊,包含訂房成本4塊嗎?我的進口,我的進口到案價格是4塊錢嘛然後送到你的家裡面這個書配店的成本我要再加上去嘛我台電不可能虧錢我說4塊錢才賣出來,不可能的事情好部長謝謝喔那我們再看,你剛剛提到節能啦因為基本上我們從你們這個能源署或是說經濟部能源署提供的全國電力工序報告裡面來講台灣的用電量是持續在成長"},{"start":6988.089,"end":7002.684,"text":"那按照目前的這個能源結構來說按照目前的發電量來講可能是不夠我們都擔心說會不會缺電那不然是這個過去美國商會、歐洲商會甚至現在連AIT自己都出來講了嘛就是說對於台灣不發展核能他覺得"},{"start":7004.085,"end":7024.44,"text":"有很大的疑慮或對他們覺得為什麼不發展他們美國願意提供相關的技術所以我想問一下院長院長自己也提過說如果在各界的技術面中能達成的情況下面台灣可能可以重新考慮所謂新核能那我不知道院長現在對這個所謂新核能的定義或說對於這個發展核電的可行性現在的態度是什麼新核能的技術"},{"start":7025.37,"end":7033.688,"text":"很多國家或是一些大型的廠商他們有的研發大家通常講的是小型的核電廠或者是那個"},{"start":7035.319,"end":7056.343,"text":"融合各種的技術但是目前都還沒有到非常很熟的商轉的階段但是我們一直在關注這個方向的發展那我們也保持跟他們開放態度共同來研究的這種可能性我想就目前的狀況啦2025就現在啦就所謂的即將要達到非核家園了嘛"},{"start":7057.603,"end":7085.157,"text":"台灣要即將做到非核家園那非核家園的那一刻開始我想主要的主力發電就剩下可能就是火力跟所謂的再生能源但目前來講我們很明顯看到我們再生能源的這個供電量就是不足以應付大多數民生所以很多時候必須用依靠火力發電所以在這種小型所謂的新型核能還沒有成熟之前我們是不是就真的要把所有的核電廠來把它關掉"},{"start":7086.778,"end":7105.675,"text":"只剩下火力發電跟再生能源這兩種的主要的用途我們依照核管法規定5月17號核三廠二號機必須除役這是現在的規定但我們依照規定在執行但同時呢我們也對於現在新開發的多元的發展綠能以及我們在"},{"start":7106.135,"end":7127.389,"text":"逐步在推進的以氣換煤的電廠的更新還有一些包括民間的電廠能夠如續來進到我們發電的這個總數裡面來那這樣算起來我們到2032年的供電量還是足夠的這個民間電廠我想就現階段多數民間電廠是不是也都是以火力發電為主"},{"start":7128.78,"end":7154.503,"text":"也有氣發點 燃氣發點還有我們現在最新的跟委員報告我們現在的地熱也是都是透過明謙跟這個中油還有台電所有機構來努力在發展這個小水利也好啊或者是地熱也好這個屬於本土的這個能源我們現在擔心的是啦這個今年2025非核家園"},{"start":7154.983,"end":7179.854,"text":"真的說核電廠停機之後本來所謂屬於核能電廠穩定供應電的這一塊未來是用什麼來取代未來這幾年在你所謂的新型小型核能新核能發展完成之前的這段空窗期我們我國的這個電力到底是用什麼來取代是不是就真的都是用多數都是用所謂的燃氣或燃煤發電來取代的我們很多燃氣的電廠會逐步的在上上升"},{"start":7180.523,"end":7200.969,"text":"好 這個我覺得這個一般我想這個還是要希望這個行政院要去好好調整一下能源政策啦因為這個我想 不管是一般民眾安全無虞的供電意思是我們對人民的承諾 我也說也是台灣對全世界的承諾好 最後我想這個時間不夠了 三四分鐘這個我跟院長討論一下 這個政治問題 口水問題"},{"start":7202.249,"end":7216.254,"text":"這個院長上禮拜有來到台中來做相關的演說那提到說對台中有很多的建設非常照顧但是我們如果按照以拿出台中跟高雄這兩個這個人口差不多的直轄市來比較的話院長一看到就是"},{"start":7217.438,"end":7246.223,"text":"提到了台中三大建設比如說會展中心、巨蛋、綠美圖我想這個金額很明顯的多數都是地方來負擔那對比到高雄的幾個像類似的場館不管會展中心他們的展覽館、主場館流行音樂中心或衛文化中心等等的幾乎看起來全部都是由中央來負擔那從台中港這部分來講台中港的擴建計畫中央負擔90.9億那再來是高雄的港規建設我想這個數字加起來五六百億至少"},{"start":7246.883,"end":7264.788,"text":"那從這個機場也是高雄小港機場的新國際航廈計畫,金額高達880億,那我這個台中機場呢,我還一直擔心我是不是查錯資料,看錯資料,我還特別去調閱,華興道工程6.8,整體的台中機場目前的改善工程9.99,合計起來的16、17億左右,對比881億,我想這個落差,"},{"start":7270.009,"end":7284.439,"text":"很大還有幾個國道建設我想那天部長在台中也提到非常多對於國道建設的努力但是一個國道7號就615億台中捷運正在蓋的準備要蓋的藍線還有還沒有蓋完的綠線"},{"start":7285.419,"end":7305.032,"text":"對比到我們高雄的捷運紅線橘線跟已經準備要蓋的捷運黃線跟正在規劃的環庄輕軌我想中央政府的出資比例跟地方負擔的比例等等的我想都列在上面我想今天為什麼市長也好或是我們這些民營代表也好會常常會去講這個事情我並不是說中央完全沒有給台中建設有"},{"start":7306.033,"end":7324.287,"text":"也感謝包含說我剛提到的國道包含說捷運建設等等的但是這個數字就擺在眼前啦這個比例就擺在眼前啦我們台中市作為全台灣人口第二大的城市拿這樣子的中央的資源相對比較少的情況下我難免會發布不平之名我難免會覺得相對不多感嘛"},{"start":7324.747,"end":7347.613,"text":"所以我想問一下這個院長因為未來即將這個新的這個會期開始了嘛那這樣台中到底接下來有什麼樣的重大建設中央願意全力支持讓我們台中能夠符合相關的這個作為全台灣第二大城市我們的規模人這麼多交通就一條捷運目前為止一條而已那這個怎麼解決我們都要共同努力啊"},{"start":7348.123,"end":7369.304,"text":"在均衡台灣的理念之下不會像過去縱北青南也不會像過去縱北青南不注重中央縱北青南也要注重中央所以中間這個部分我們已經在我們六大區域產業的生活計劃區裡面把它列為精密"},{"start":7370.084,"end":7397.23,"text":"精密智慧的新核心台中維中心的精密智慧的新核心跟科技都把它連結在一起當然要串起很多的交通建設這樣才能夠讓基礎建設襯托整個六大產業生活區OK 院長跟部長也是給個方向啦對我們台中市民而言部長最了解台中我知道啊 我跟他以前同事啊"},{"start":7398.257,"end":7406.085,"text":"報告委員其實中央對台中絕對不會不注重我在台中的時候我也有說像東風快速道路"},{"start":7407.099,"end":7429.118,"text":"中央出了差不多70%的預算這個是台中市的建設但是內政部跟交通部大家一起努力出了70%的預算這個部分其實中央很努力在做還有就是台74縣74縣其實都在台中裡面包含建制包含現在的維養全部都是中央在努力台74縣在台中很多的民眾大家每天都在使用"},{"start":7429.557,"end":7438.083,"text":"其實中央能做的只要台中有需求一定都會努力好 最後幾秒鐘啦我提醒一下就是捷運的紅線跟捷運橘線你盡快核定"},{"start":7443.544,"end":7445.285,"text":"現在休息15分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":8436.372,"end":8458.314,"text":"現在我們繼續開會首先我們來歡迎來自美國芝加哥亞洲國際關係學院所有的同學們Welcome to Taiwan另外我們歡迎來自台北市成功高中所有的同學好 歡迎接下來我們請邱正軍委員質詢"},{"start":8469.424,"end":8473.707,"text":"主席好我們有請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選邱委員好院長好院長今天一開始我想跟你討論的是我們苗栗孩子的授教權的問題我們看一下影片好不好"},{"start":8494.176,"end":8521.485,"text":"這個是上個月開學的時候我到苗栗的後莊國小去看孩子們上課的一個狀況那1.8公頃的這個學校最合適的班級數大概是40班後莊國小現在是51班院長你能想像超出11班又是滿班的一個學校孩子們在上課的教室跟下課的活動空間是有多擁擠嗎 剛剛有看到吧"},{"start":8522.793,"end":8549.6,"text":"我們再放一次好了這裡有五十一班喔對 五十一班那我們後川國小的這個位置就在科學園區的旁邊你們看一下這是一個小型的一個室內的一個運動場一個運動的一個區域那後川國小的位置就在科學園區旁邊"},{"start":8550.977,"end":8571.047,"text":"竹科的員工上個月已經有17萬8633人比起五年前增加了兩萬五千人左右竹科飽和帶來的外溢效益讓很多新竹上班的人選擇搬到苗栗的竹南跟投奉當然我們非常歡迎他們到苗栗來"},{"start":8574.937,"end":8599.694,"text":"我們在2022年的時候成為少數人口一路正成長的一個縣市更值得一提的是到去年2月到今年2月一年之間涉及在頭份竹南的人口增加了2117人近三年大概增加了6000人每一年以1%的這個速度成長在整個台灣來講是非常少見的"},{"start":8601.141,"end":8608.368,"text":"那現在竹南頭份市區的國中國小幾乎都是額滿的我們面臨的是學校小孩子根本都沒有教室上課"},{"start":8609.369,"end":8631.741,"text":"那接下來桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的推動我想我們預估未來會增加14萬個工作機會那可預期的就是孩子的這個售價的一個問題其實桃竹苗大溪谷計畫當初在核定的時候配套就包含要確保水電無虞、交通的順暢、醫療充足、員工居住跟子女教育的部分"},{"start":8632.659,"end":8657.66,"text":"沒錯吧,我們當初也涵蓋在這裡面那我們以南科來說增加台南、高雄、嘉義、屏東園區園區裡面每一個園區都有一所實驗的學校我們不是說別人有,我們苗栗也要有但是苗栗確實有這個需要那我們再看一下剛剛下一張照片這個好"},{"start":8662.196,"end":8688.823,"text":"這是二月中我們開的一個座談會來參與的都是家長這個人數是爆滿的我們希望因應園區的發展小孩子的就業需求在竹南科學園區裡面設立實驗中學那目前我們中縣長也已經找好了地是縣府的地大概有九公頃左右那地由地方出中央出錢一起合作我們那天的座談會教育部有派人來參加"},{"start":8690.715,"end":8707.234,"text":"教育部目前應該是沒有什麼問題現在就等院長跟國科會我們這邊點頭我不知道院長的意思非常感謝邱委員如此關心教育的問題能夠關心下一代是我們必須該做的重要的事情"},{"start":8708.035,"end":8723.114,"text":"那隨著科學園區的增加產業的發展我們需要更多的這種教育的設施空間所以我想無論從硬體軟體 絲織各方面來十足的增加都必須要的而且"},{"start":8724.482,"end":8748.85,"text":"委員所說的已經不是光是教育部的問題了我們的實驗中學與其在科學園區的實驗中學都是國科會要全面來規劃來執行的所以國科會吳主委也一直在討論這個事情那我也相當的了解目前進度過程吳主委來答覆我們請吳主委講一下我們科學園區實驗中學需要在園區籌設計畫抱怨"},{"start":8751.428,"end":8775.124,"text":"核電技取得學校用地產權後才能夠進行評估規劃目前我們整個產業的需求現在還沒有很明確因為原來竹南科學園區的這個土地上次院長也去看過現在縣政府所規劃的三塊地"},{"start":8776.007,"end":8799.429,"text":"其實都不符合現在產業的需求我想問主委我們大溪谷計畫是不是確定會推動已經核定了但是地方政府要配合當然我們絕對會配合那既然要推動是不是小孩子就這個教育的問題 受教的問題是不是要優先考量而且要提早來進行因為"},{"start":8800.239,"end":8818.432,"text":"孩子的成長只有一次他沒有辦法重來也不能等他錯過這一次機會如果我們慢了一年他的未來就影響到了比較快速的方法是趕快在既有的學校趕快擴充問題他剛剛我講了他那個土地只有1.8公尺因為需要要成立科學園區的實驗中學"},{"start":8820.013,"end":8836.946,"text":"是有他的一些既定的這個辦法我想委員非常清楚我們要做很完善的調查這位委員報告這個部長也跟鍾縣長有過接觸有討論過那目前這個部長在教育部裡面的作業我請部長來說明"},{"start":8839.151,"end":8855.875,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心竹南竹苗地區的一些從小學國中到高中的一些教育的一個機會的提供跟教育品質上的一個確保確實我們也看到竹苗這三個縣是因為科學園區的一個進駐"},{"start":8861.608,"end":8869.363,"text":"這個人口是在增加的所以我們在今年的一月對目前的竹苗八所的高中我們已經撥了3,507萬先"},{"start":8873.444,"end":8890.442,"text":"用來增班這是一個馬上立即可以改善我跟你報告齁那跟委員報告那另外我們也核定就是說從今年開始我們這一個苗栗縣頭份國中的西測校測二十間的校測教師的工程經會"},{"start":8891.643,"end":8907.155,"text":"有1億7千將近8千萬這個用來希望能夠趕快增設這個學校我想另外還有一個苗栗的這個大同高中跟新華高中我們也給予這個經費的補助都希望"},{"start":8908.215,"end":8936.584,"text":"從快速的校舍的徵件學校的成立跟部長你講的沒錯這是一般的校舍啦一般的校舍其實當初我們中央補助了非常多的一個實驗教室實驗室那現在這些實驗室根本就是已經拿來當作教室在用了所以學生這連實驗室都沒有這個部分本來就是要解決那我們提的實驗中學他其實的目的是在於說因為我們很多這個園區的員工的子女受教的問題"},{"start":8937.364,"end":8956.818,"text":"一般來說,如果我們現在不成立,未來我們苗栗縣的這些,搬到苗栗縣的來這些園區的員工的子女,他未來要到新竹去念實驗中學是不可能的,他進不去的。所以我們是希望把人才留在苗栗,才會跟我們中間來提這件事情,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":8959.005,"end":8976.212,"text":"不過我們是已經跟縣政府有討論過這個事我們竹科管理局也是很積極在協助那我們希望苗栗縣政府趕快先進行擴建用地規劃這個規劃還是要符合我們產業需求這個規劃完成以後我們竹科管理局會"},{"start":8977.192,"end":9005.183,"text":"取得產權之後土地規劃完,用地取得你不能先核地嗎?先准他嗎?他就可以先前作業嘛,不是嗎?要先前作業,現在可能性評估在做可是現在三塊用地其實是並不符合我們現在講的重要產業他的這個需求那當然啦,這個縣府我這是另外一個層面我們當然會加緊腳步跟中央好好的配合啦那我現在講的就是說這個部分我們不能拿出來先來做一個事前的一個準備嘛"},{"start":9006.403,"end":9032.519,"text":"讓我們在後續才能夠知道我們下一步要做什麼委員剛剛吳主委講說現在的土地評估起來不是很適合也請委員拜託我們到一定對地方了解有沒有更好的地點我們可以再繼續做評估那原則上我這樣問好了我們院長 主委 部長你們支不支持我們大溪谷計畫的園區裡面我們住在園區裡面增設一所實驗中學你支持什麼我們評估"},{"start":9034.543,"end":9057.464,"text":"確定有這個需求 我們當然一定會盡力來協助現在我就覺得 你就答應我就好了嘛不是 我們還是評估因為用地取得對啦 我知道啦 我的意思是說你既然大溪谷計畫 既然要確定要實施那為什麼 學校我認為趨勢上我們應該要提早因應做準備但是如果沒有找到合適的地點 大小"},{"start":9058.445,"end":9076.574,"text":"他的位置的土地那也是沒有辦法執行所以趕快來找找看適合的地點是何在我們就進行來評估如何來設置怎麼樣規模內容的一個怎麼樣學校但地點要先有著落好的土地的問題我們來解決啦那我們會支持孩子受教的問題嗎對不對"},{"start":9079.045,"end":9096.367,"text":"是,我們當然桃中原大氣股的發展已經在行政院通過了我們科學園區管理局會積極來協助因為你看嘉義、嘉科、平科、時中111年核定,113年八月就開始招生了,它現在還沒蓋好"},{"start":9097.668,"end":9121.143,"text":"當然土地的問題這個我知道那我們回去加緊腳步那請我們主委跟我們部長還院長大家一起來努力來推動這件事情好嗎好謝謝部長請回那接下來我再請問我們的院長我們賴清德總統上週在宣布這個17項策略之後"},{"start":9122.955,"end":9150.989,"text":"人民還有各行各業普遍都感覺到台灣的民主變了調雖然總統沒有宣布戰爭也沒有宣布戒嚴但是對外就是進入了準戰爭的時期對內就是實施類戒嚴賴總統說中國大陸危險嚴重我們有召開或者是參加緊急的因應會議嗎有就開了幾次這一次兩次都有參加"},{"start":9152.473,"end":9177.876,"text":"院長你認為台灣是一個民主國家嗎當然是我也認同你剛剛講的但是我覺得讓我們覺得賴清德總統賴政府正在複製一段歷史一樣的反共一樣的反民族主義的口號一樣的製造內部跟外部的敵人一樣的利用抹黑的手段媒體抹黑的手段"},{"start":9178.922,"end":9196.108,"text":"一樣的藉體發揮面對不同的聲音一樣的貼標籤然後要做司法的變革一樣的政治目的目的就是要消滅我們在野黨你有沒有覺得這個似曾相識絕對非如此我們只是在面對境外敵對勢力對我們不斷的"},{"start":9198.557,"end":9221.456,"text":"併吞跟滲透的意圖我們築起一道更高更堅固自我防衛的高牆這絕對不是準戰爭的行為自我防衛的決心自我防衛的責任我們現在內政府所做的事情跟希特勒非常相似完全不一樣我們總統講一句話我們就要恢復軍事審判這個不是獨裁嗎"},{"start":9224.053,"end":9252.168,"text":"當然不是 軍事審判我再說明他只有針對現役軍人的五種軍事犯罪叛亂 利敵 泄密 廢止職務以及抗命軍人不能有這五種行為有這五種行為就是軍事審判我們總統公開發言公開宣布了30分鐘那台灣人民可能有一半以上就開始擔心以後的生活那按照民主法制的精神恢復軍事審判制度要不要修法"},{"start":9253.103,"end":9281.876,"text":"我們會啟動所有相關的修法包括軍法官人士的條例我們也要有更有經驗跟民主素養的軍法官來處理這些案子草案你有沒有正在處理啊什麼時候要提呢我希望我們這一個月內提了之後會跟社會溝通嗎當然我們現在所有的立法過程都必須跟社會也要跟大院溝通對啦 不要總統一宣布你們就配合著修法我認為爭取社會"},{"start":9282.876,"end":9297.31,"text":"的認同更重要我們會啟動相關必要的程序這才是民主國家啦跟委員報告我想我們在研擬的過程當中都要跟社會各界保持溝通也要跟這個相關的這些專業人士來進行諮商這樣子"},{"start":9300.032,"end":9318.543,"text":"那根據中華民國憲法總統是可以宣戰也可以宣布戒嚴公布法令發布命令但是我沒有聽過總統一句話就可以把這個現有的法律直接改掉的那要不要恢復軍事審判這是一個嚴肅的問題我們可以認真對待這件事情嗎 院長這個"},{"start":9320.578,"end":9346.495,"text":"朝野的委員在過去也都有這樣相關的提案所以不是總統的一句話總統宣示一個政策出來之後民主國家按照民主的程序來完成所有相關立法跟配套這是現在我們必須馬上開始要做所以立法的也都要經過立法院的同意這個不是說我們相關這樣一下宣布就可以進行因為我們研擬完之後"},{"start":9347.135,"end":9376.018,"text":"跟專業人士諮商跟社會溝通還是要送大院來審議我希望你們講的要照做就是說你們常常在喊的是沒有討論就沒有民主我希望你們不要一邊講一種話回來講又另外一種話我們當然是不允許我們的國軍裡面有人做出危害國家安危的事情但是你們現在對外一致的回答讓民眾覺得你在告訴大家"},{"start":9377.336,"end":9396.982,"text":"馬英九任內我們兩岸溝通非常良好非常和平蔡英文任內也還算穩定所以沒有軍法重啟軍法的這個必要那現在我們賴總統一上任之後就任務軍機就變換扇了就準備開戰了現在是這個原因嗎"},{"start":9398.562,"end":9422.571,"text":"我們外面的解讀是這樣我想院長已經一切的說明了這個我想我們就已經限縮為現役軍人犯軍人職務上是犯罪這跟這個戒嚴沒有任何的關聯不然我再問你你過去是支持廢除軍事法庭的嘛那你要為你過去的審判制度道歉嗎"},{"start":9423.77,"end":9451.331,"text":"我想我們現在要來的是一個重新打造一個新的符合公平審判原則跟正當法律原則的一個新的您的意思是說你2013年當時你還是顧立雄律師的時候你的私律不周、倉促行事、鋁蟒而廢除的軍事審判是錯的嗎?我想當時的軍事審判制度有違憲的地方有這個不符合公平法律的設計的地方那時候為什麼不改要廢呢?"},{"start":9452.472,"end":9469.711,"text":"當時我並不是國防部長所以你現在你現在擔任的你就要飛了但是我現在擔任我當然有這個職責來讓這個軍事審判是合於憲法的意志因為現在的司法跟檢調普遍都不太讓人民信任更何況是完全在威權的這個"},{"start":9471.668,"end":9492.862,"text":"軍隊禮軍事審判要不要恢復這是一個嚴肅的問題民主國家很多國家都有軍事審判的這樣的一個制度其實我們的立場一直沒有認為說要把它廢除我們只是說這個東西當然是可以更透明這是我們當初國民黨的一貫的立場那當初說要廢的是你啊是你們民進黨"},{"start":9493.903,"end":9509.195,"text":"那現在說要恢復的也是民進黨神也是你們鬼也是你們這個立場反覆啊讓人民沒有辦法苟同嘛你要怎麼樣去去跟像那些當初為了洪仲秋的案子的號召的上街頭的24萬人"},{"start":9511.135,"end":9530.108,"text":"他們要請何以堪?我們回憶一下當時是因為內在的因素因為裡面的事件軍中人權被忽略了所以內在的因素經過種種社會的反應是馬前總統的宣布廢除了軍事研判今天我們面對是外在的威脅"},{"start":9530.828,"end":9560.008,"text":"所以時空背景內部的因素我們已經完整的保存了人權跟包裝金鐘人權未來我們也會有更有經驗更有民主更有法律素養的軍法官來審理所以沒有內在因素的問題我們面對的是外在的威脅所以你現在解釋就是說跟現在時空背景是不一樣嘛對不對是不一樣以前追求的是安居樂業那以兩岸和平為主軸那現在你說追求兩岸和平是溫柔的投降"},{"start":9561.088,"end":9572.894,"text":"在我看來,私私有兩種,和平也有兩種一種是國家要夠強,一種是束手投降在我看來,這是掌權者無視人命的倔強你還記得賴清德總統要上任的時候他有一個影片廣告宣傳他是上了一部轎車"},{"start":9587.961,"end":9601.2,"text":"可是我現在看起來他當選之後他是不是上錯車了他開到火車了不會轉彎直走我們開一部往和平的車往和平中站的車但是我們每天受到"},{"start":9603.137,"end":9617.717,"text":"軍機軍艦的威脅在台灣環繞不是從今天開始也不是從520開始好啦院長最後來我跟你講我們內閣裡面有很多人失言、造謠甚至當側翼的這些官員你們可以用很多的政治語言去粉飾太平"},{"start":9618.237,"end":9645.555,"text":"但是總統對外講的話會牽動國家的生死存亡也會帶著2300萬人民的生命財產安全受到影響那我希望以後這種事情我希望你們能夠更審慎的來討論我們兩岸的關係跟國際上的一個關係這樣可以嗎一直非常審慎的討論事前做很多的研商那麼每一個文字自貞自卓的都相當的謹慎"},{"start":9646.576,"end":9657.346,"text":"就是要讓國人有信心讓國際也認為我們有保衛自己的決心那部長說國軍不管有沒有打仗隨時都要備戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":9658.75,"end":9680.999,"text":"對 因為我們備戰才能避戰對 我也覺得非常有道理本來我們這個國防本來就是要做那現在兩岸關係現在被你們搞到這麼緊張要增加國防實力我認為沒有人會反對今年國防預算是6470億我們賴總統說要提高到GDP的3%大概會增加1200億左右"},{"start":9683.539,"end":9699.528,"text":"當然我們在黨的立場是這樣合理的可以被監督的當然我們會支持但是你們打算怎麼分配你是多少要買武器多少要增加國軍薪資的待遇"},{"start":9700.568,"end":9726.771,"text":"跟委員報告我想大概國防的預算支出大概是就三大塊一塊是人員的維持費一塊是作業維持費還有一塊是這個軍事投資軍事的投資又有不同也有除了我們國防自主的產能之外也有軍購也有商購所以這些部分我們都是依照我們作戰的實際需要來進行這個相關的這些軍事投資"},{"start":9727.632,"end":9751.294,"text":"那作業維持的部分,因為中國的清早,我想這個作業維持也日益增加,我想我們也需要這些零附件、油料的這些籌貨。那人員維持的部分,我想我們也在進行一些待遇調整的方案,這些方案也順化行政院,行政院正在審議當中。好,那你們有提版本了嗎?國民黨提了一個,對吧?國民黨提了一個,"},{"start":9753.872,"end":9780.125,"text":"軍人待遇改革法案從薪資加給福利津貼方面直接入法保障因為要提升國防最重要的是人你買再多的武器沒有人是沒有用的沒有人使用是沒用的那志願役呢國民黨提的版本是二等兵直接加薪兩萬那你們研議的會比這個多還是比這個少我想行政院在審議之後我們會對外公布但是我們不認為這樣子的一個"},{"start":9781.383,"end":9805.308,"text":"我一直在講這種因為現在據這個立委有提出來的這些喊價式的這種待遇調整的方法我想並沒有考慮到整個這一個我覺得是這樣子你們既然有版本要趕快提出來是在還沒有進入三讀之前我們政黨裡面我們大家好好的來協商好好討論這件事情我覺得這是有必要的不要倉促到時候你們不談等到我們提出來你們要提復議"},{"start":9807.394,"end":9822.708,"text":"院長應該會盡快來核定這一個國防部已經把完整詳細的整個方案這個案子都送到行政院行政院基本上會尊重國防部我也會同意國防部送來的案子那什麼時候大概什麼時候會停我們完成內部很快"},{"start":9824.26,"end":9850.987,"text":"這個之外我們對軍人的一些包括他的保險我們也會做增加這是另案的我們是希望提升軍人的待遇目的是要有人那當然我們也有精兵的一個政策然後我們大概也算了一下大概改善軍人待遇初估大概多了大概是440多億我覺得這非常重要而且我們部裡面還有行政院這邊能夠納入考量"},{"start":9852.418,"end":9880.009,"text":"我們衡量國家的需求對軍人的待遇、國家的需求對於整體的戰力因為我們要從整體的不只財政預渡好啦,那我期待你們的版本出來還考量謝謝,謝謝部長那再來就是賴總統的17項策略裡面部長請回,請回主委也請回就台灣與中國的經貿關係進行策略性的結構調整那目前我們要怎麼調整"},{"start":9881.311,"end":9909.322,"text":"他的原則就是以強本固台風險管理作為原則性那對雙方的人流物流是現說兩岸的活動嗎是現說對兩岸兩邊雙邊的人流物流金流跟技術必須要做到必要跟有序的調整就是一切要以強化我們自己的經濟安全為出發怎麼調整嗎你要終止ECFA還是要做進出國管制還是要廢除兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":9911.055,"end":9937.248,"text":"大體的講是內控跟外控我們對出去到國外的你知道我們台灣一年出口中國跟香港的這個金額是多少嗎一定相當龐大 對所以我們更要小心不如過度的依賴性出去的各種關於高科技的產品更應該再符合我們現在國家安全的需求底下做強烈要求對 我現在要講的一個現實的問題就是說"},{"start":9938.772,"end":9967.455,"text":"台灣進出口到中國香港每年是四兆八千一百九十八億左右那我講的是去年的數據那今年呢出口美國的金額是三兆五千六百億左右那到日本的金額是八千兩百億台灣出口東協十國的金額大概是兩兆八千億左右那如果我們現在限縮了我們跟中國的一個交流的時候我們每年進出口到"},{"start":9968.459,"end":9991.545,"text":"大陸香港的這些業者他們未來怎麼辦所以台灣也要分散我們的市場我們出去到中國的很多的產品他都是加工之後又到世界各地去那也許世界各地也有更適合的生產基地你這些配套搶好了沒有因為我看你們的動作就是要跟對岸來終止你要叫這些人"},{"start":9992.285,"end":10009.397,"text":"我們只是要做必要跟有序的調整你要給人家一個方向你知道嗎你不是說現在講然後讓大家覺得沒有明天我到底要不要繼續投資我到底要怎麼樣我要移到哪邊去我這個行業到底要不要繼續做那我的未來怎麼辦我的貸款怎麼辦我的小孩怎麼辦"},{"start":10010.217,"end":10033.139,"text":"不僅我們的廠商會到世界布局,我們也會另外有相當完整的條件希望國外的廠商也到台灣來設廠投資那國內的廠商在國內的投資也會持續的加碼,這個都是現在已經看到的現象部長,你們如果最終的目的是要兩岸停止交流,我請你們直接告訴人民,讓我們的人民有所準備"},{"start":10034.179,"end":10058.042,"text":"這樣不確定性會讓人民不知所措兩岸必須做健康有序的交流我們只是做一些必要的交流你們的健康標準是什麼健康就是要保障台灣人主體的安全國防的安全跟經濟的安全跟人民的安全這個怎麼認定這個怎麼認定我覺得很模糊你知道嗎你不能選擇一把大刀在人家頭上什麼時候要往下砍不知道我高興我就不砍我不高興你就砍下來"},{"start":10059.383,"end":10085.406,"text":"那你叫人民未來何去何從他要怎麼樣無所適從你懂我意思嗎我們就是要避免這種大刀架在我們脖子上不是你現在是別人的大刀架在我們頭上沒錯那我們自己又拿了一把大刀又壓在我們人民身上不是嗎沒有我們沒有把大刀壓在自己身上所以我覺得你們的政策既然要做講清楚跟人民講清楚你未來要怎麼樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10086.594,"end":10111.401,"text":"總統在3月13號的財事當中這17項是非常清楚的只是我們一一要把它落實到部會裡面去當這個完善的周延的計畫出來之後會不會就拒之行那時候再請委員執照跟支持那我再來問台積電赴美投資我們這邊說是1000億美金川普說是2000億這個你們掌握的到底是多少"},{"start":10113.13,"end":10137.355,"text":"我們所知道是原來就已經有650億再加上1000億是這個1650億院長跟我們的總統也都說過要跟留台灣要把台積電最先進的製程留在台灣但是投審會說那個N1的規定只有針對中國其他地方是沒設限的對吧"},{"start":10139.58,"end":10150.089,"text":"報告委員台積電我們當然是尊重他的投資規劃魏哲嘉董事長也表明台積電對台灣的投資是不變的"},{"start":10151.212,"end":10173.488,"text":"像是高雄的兩奈米廠、嘉義先進的封裝廠這些投資都不會改變未來也會持續擴大的投資對台灣的半導體業來講,仍然是全球最完善的半導體供應體系我知道你未來是怎麼管控高階技術、高階人才不會過去"},{"start":10174.639,"end":10201.57,"text":"過幾天不是他們州長要過來嗎他們到美國去投資必須要經過經濟部的投審會的許可所以我們會堅持把最新的技術留在台留在這個國內那這個裡面當然你怎麼堅持是最新你們剛剛講了我記得部長前幾天有講過就是說最新的技術明年是1.6奈米是不會過去嘛對不對"},{"start":10203.611,"end":10220.782,"text":"台積電他們現在會開始開發1.6奈米的技術但是這個技術還沒有到生產線還沒有辦法到生產線所以我相信他在美國他要生產線上面要去佈局1.6奈米這個是"},{"start":10223.024,"end":10235.098,"text":"不夠內行的說法也不夠專業的說法所以就是不會去嘛所以他會去的一定是在國內已經有成績的部分才會過去我們每年到台積電的他的"},{"start":10242.046,"end":10262.278,"text":"基本支出是大概381到420億美元如果美國的這個設置工廠它要到這個1000億美元的話我們算過大概一年要250億美元那會影響我們台灣的這個整個的進度嗎?這個不會你保證不會?你說一年會有一個廠嗎?對吧?"},{"start":10263.82,"end":10289.289,"text":"他不會影響 這個是台積電他到美國也是他全球佈局的一個部分他主要是要接近他美國的客戶那麼這個美國的客戶比較先進的製程都在美國所以台積電去那裡主要是服務他的客戶好 時間也到了 謝謝院長 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢"},{"start":10292.753,"end":10316.874,"text":"現在在議場二樓旁聽的遠從屏東電器裝修職業工會的好朋友麗玲立法院我們熱情歡迎現在在我們議場右邊來自中華民國全級協會的武林高手熱情歡迎接下來我們請登記第35位謝一鳳委員質詢"},{"start":10331.267,"end":10337.213,"text":"謝謝院長我想要請卓院長農業部長還有環境部長麻煩請卓院長農業部環境部備選"},{"start":10349.929,"end":10361.934,"text":"主委長好我想要了解一下其實我知道說我們減碳一直是我們政府的目標但是"},{"start":10363.188,"end":10380.787,"text":"我們看到了對於農民有幫助的在減碳部分因為現在有非常多的企業投入了這樣子SDG以及我們ESG相關的這樣子的一個發展"},{"start":10382.329,"end":10397.577,"text":"這都跟農業有絕對的相關性我也去看了我們彰化縣農業非常多有志於發展農業科技以及結合綠電以及永續發展的農資農財這樣子相關的發展"},{"start":10402.219,"end":10426.175,"text":"但是我發現了一個非常奇怪的就是當我們的農業要來減碳的時候他一定要有減碳的方法學那我想要請問的是我們彭部長我們目前環境部對於減碳的方法學審理到底需要多久的時間"},{"start":10427.308,"end":10442.18,"text":"保護委員過去的確是比較久但是我們現在過去多久過去可能都要一兩年因為過去比較久但是現在大概我們通過了五個過去多久你說過去我不知清楚但是我們過去這幾個月大概通過了四個方法學"},{"start":10443.401,"end":10457.266,"text":"例如說森林的管理還有這種竹林還有各種的育苗的處理其實已經有五個方法學那未來呢未來目前例如說海洋的海藻或是紅樹林也正在申請當中"},{"start":10458.407,"end":10474.138,"text":"因為我覺得這個減碳的方法學對於農民是非常重要的尤其是小農過去我在質詢農委會的時候我們就怎麼樣子把這些方法學因為小農他沒有辦法"},{"start":10475.118,"end":10498.468,"text":"去自己去提出申請那一定是農委會等相關的協助我們整個小農對於整個企業的方法學一定要讓他們有一個可以共同遵循的方向但是在方法學的審理上面即便這個方法學是在農業部這邊是不是"},{"start":10501.05,"end":10518.604,"text":"我跟委員報告我們農業部本身所擬定的現在目前有五個方法學院送到環境部那環境部本身過往是比較慢但是這一年多來這將近一年來其實他們審理的速度大概平均大概是六個月到八個月就可以出來"},{"start":10519.204,"end":10539.591,"text":"那最近的比較重要委員所關切的特別是跟跟作有關的土壤的方法學那現在也已經進到環境部的第二次審查那我們預計審查過的過程裡面有些需修正的那如果過了以後對於我們農業經營上面的的這些減碳的作為就會很有幫助"},{"start":10540.984,"end":10568.9,"text":"對 如果沒有減碳的這個方法學的時候農民怎麼利用減碳去得到就是說除了種植農作物以外的這樣子就是說國際在追求減碳的這個過程當中他們額外的收入那我們知道說目前農民的數量減少但是有青農的加入我們希望青農在加入以後"},{"start":10569.52,"end":10594.258,"text":"可以藉由這種對於農業新興的獲利的方式來協助他們除了在耕種以外能夠藉由碳費能夠得到一筆收入這是我們希望能夠帶來未來農業可以永續發展以及結合現在企業要投入永續農業以及ESG相關的作為的時候如果環境部"},{"start":10594.778,"end":10622.766,"text":"你們的方法學沒有提出的話你們沒有加速審理的話你們都還在這裡局部不前的話那這樣子未來我們農業怎麼發展是不是保委員這個是我們非常重視的但是因為我們台灣過去對於農業的方法學是比較陌生的但是現在有在加快但是我也跟委員報告因為我們目前的碳費的價格是只有300塊那其實在這個市場上如果農民來做這個東西其實"},{"start":10623.986,"end":10650.909,"text":"現在的價值性不高那我們未來呢其實更重要的一環是要推動總量管制的排放交易如果明年下半年我們可以上路的話農民的誘因因為我們台灣的土地相對的農民的土地都比較小所以他要做這個整個碳的這個匯的價值額外的收入的話其實是成本跟收入不成比例的所以未來呢我們也會擴大跟農民的再溝通希望能夠來幫助農民在減碳的部分能夠獲得不一樣的收益"},{"start":10651.46,"end":10664.836,"text":"我在這邊跟委員補充就是個別農戶因為他土地面積小就算他得到的碳費本身的減碳的價值是非常低的所以我們已經同步針對這個個體小農去做集結變成集團栽培的經營組去做處理的話"},{"start":10668.28,"end":10694.802,"text":"那樣子他比較得到比較大的量可以跟ESG做結合在第一個部分第二個部分就是委員所關切的其實在彰化有很多葡萄農這些枝條的部分那現在我們農業部也推動了剩餘資源的循環在利用特別是將這些枝條剪下來以後經過粉碎以後變成生殖燃料的生殖燃料棒那這個生殖燃料棒的部分也可以當作一個能源的一個替代"},{"start":10695.66,"end":10703.394,"text":"好,那我還想要請,謝謝彭部長,我想要請衛福部的邱部長。麻煩請衛福部備選。"},{"start":10707.192,"end":10734.531,"text":"農業部我們陳部長請等一下我想請問一下就是對於紐西蘭的牛乳進口這個部分其實糯農還是很希望說我們可以維持就是說就是在鮮乳的部分我們希望紐西蘭進口的鮮乳能夠不要加上長效鮮乳這個部分以長效乳來鑄成那"},{"start":10735.431,"end":10763.529,"text":"為什麼衛福部都沒有辦法我是不是可以說明一下現在我們跟衛福部其實針對這個議題討論的非常多那最新的一個共識而且也經過諾能的座談裡面討論的就是未來只要是有鮮乳標章產銷履歷跟CAS的國產乳才能夠標鮮乳國產的鮮乳然後其他的部分包括進口的我們"},{"start":10764.369,"end":10782.208,"text":"修正了相關的經濟部的一個標準局的相關的規範未來的牛乳的話只能分為牛乳、羊乳不能再加先制因為先制本身是一個形容詞它很難去界定說它是幾天以下才叫做先所以未來只有國內生產的牛乳"},{"start":10783.699,"end":10802.439,"text":"國內生產的牛乳而且是要取得我們的證明標章先乳證明標章產銷履歷或是CS的那這三個標章是為了讓我們的國內的牛乳本身具有產品的差異化那透過這樣的產品差異化才能夠讓我們的國產牛乳在市面上比較有大的競爭力"},{"start":10803.41,"end":10818.187,"text":"那所以未來紐西蘭或其他國家進口的就不能夠加上鮮嗎?對,根據相關的規定就只能叫做牛奶所以就不會加上鮮乳,就是會排解我們目前就是國內弱農的疑慮是不是?"},{"start":10819.088,"end":10835.015,"text":"我希望說我們相關的作業能夠加速可以嗎因為今年度是因為就是紐西蘭的牛乳他生產並不多那進口的數量也不多那未來如果進口的數量多的話那恐怕會影響國內酪農的相關的生產"},{"start":10837.176,"end":10852.623,"text":"我跟你們提供一個數據,其實紐西蘭進口本身以去年來講是一萬三千多噸那一萬三千多噸裡面有將近一萬噸是薄酒爐的系統其實它紐西蘭本身它鮮乳的進口量只佔它整個進口量的百分之三十"},{"start":10853.951,"end":10869.42,"text":"好那那個邱部長再麻煩你把這個部分就是相關的法律能夠協助好不好好是的好謝謝那我再想要請問一下就是我們經濟部的郭部長農業部衛生部請回"},{"start":10881.481,"end":10905.248,"text":"我剛才那個陳部長他提到了就是農業的減肥其實我昨天排了一個到設計研究院也就是你經濟部所屬的這樣子一個財團法人那我們去看了就是裡面他已經有就是設計好的機台已經把果皮或者是果渣等等"},{"start":10905.828,"end":10919.894,"text":"它可以藉由這樣子一個轉變變成第一個可穿的布料或者是目前作為我們電動車車上的皮料"},{"start":10922.975,"end":10942.586,"text":"那以這樣子的一個研究以及讓我們的循環經濟能夠成為可實現的這樣子的一個方法那我想要請問一下我們經濟部以及我們行政院是不是應該要大力的支持"},{"start":10943.604,"end":10969.885,"text":"是的 我們經濟部是有支持我們有提供研發投資抵減 抵減率大概15%各個產業都可以來申請試用我想請問的是因為其實設計本身是一個產業目前設計產品的設計以及相關的這是不是也請我們財政部的"},{"start":10971.866,"end":10985.275,"text":"財政部貝雪設計業者從事具一定創新程度的創作這些相關研發的支出也可以申請那麼在修訂設備投資抵檢的子辦法時亦會將設計業所需的AI軟硬體設備或者技術這個抵檢率有5%納入評估"},{"start":10996.745,"end":11012.581,"text":"我是說對於品牌的設計以及對於我們產品製程的相關設計尤其是對於像這樣子農廢的再循環利用變成工業的產品等"},{"start":11013.161,"end":11032.674,"text":"相關製程的這樣子的一個研發設計那是不是我們不用透過修法以執法的修訂那就可以把他們納入就是企業的這個投資底檢的這個項目裡面那這樣子郭部長他是大力的支持那莊部長咧"},{"start":11034.262,"end":11047.46,"text":"我想在目前來說相關的法律裡面對原發的支出都已經有投資抵減那在執法規裡面只要在法律的這個法律的上位之下都可以訂定相關的一些細節項目"},{"start":11049.222,"end":11066.038,"text":"因為我們看到了目前台灣他希望能走出自己的品牌我們希望利用自己的產品在世界打出我們自己的品牌我們當然除了半導體以外我們還有非常重要的傳產"},{"start":11067.139,"end":11081.745,"text":"那重要的傳產裡面他們沒有透過這樣子的產品的設計的話他們沒有辦法能夠在國際有自由品牌我想要請問郭部長你知道吧你的過去你的次長"},{"start":11083.045,"end":11108.531,"text":"連錦章市長他現在就在設計研究院裡面當董事長他對於產業界非常熟悉所以他可以把產業界的意見以及我們設計團隊的意見共同結合起來對於台灣的這樣子設計產業的相關的這個共同研發的動力是非常大的"},{"start":11108.931,"end":11118.004,"text":"所以我們經濟部絕對不能夠放棄這樣子的一個項目我們一定要繼續的來培植我們的設計產業我們過去我們有金馬獎"},{"start":11125.214,"end":11145.209,"text":"然後呢現在我們過去我們的戲劇在國際都獲得非常好的成績現在我們的設計也有經典獎我們的設計跟世界上的設計的大獎共同都有互相的合作那未來"},{"start":11146.01,"end":11169.171,"text":"如果可以把台灣產品的設計力能夠展現出來的時候那是不是對於未來台灣不管是在高科技產業或者是在傳產裡面都有相關的協助那現在我們是不是能獲得我們郭部長以及莊部長共同的支持"},{"start":11170.468,"end":11191.739,"text":"報告委員,我們支持設計發展,所以我們編列的還不錯的預算。跟委員報告,我們藉由台灣設計研究院,整合國內的設計相關產業協會,共同來推動。每年我們投入的經費大概有六億元。"},{"start":11192.979,"end":11201.009,"text":"今年大概114年是6.03億元,主要協助產業設計創新,提高產品的附加價值。藉由補助、輔導措施,協助產業的商品或服務設計價值,以提高產品的附加價值。"},{"start":11212.063,"end":11234.461,"text":"所以委員所垂詢的我們更推動公共服務的設計改善也推動台灣設計國際的推廣因為主要我們希望把台灣能夠重新的定位重新設計台灣是一個團隊的產業我們把它整合成團隊往外服務世界的公民"},{"start":11235.353,"end":11253.449,"text":"六億的預算佔其實我們三兆的總預算裡面非常小的一部分但是其實它發揮了非常大的一個影響力因為它涉及的層面不只我們的公共建設還有公共的政策還有我們的產業面那當然了"},{"start":11253.849,"end":11280.066,"text":"今年度的台灣設計展即將在10月10號到26號在彰化縣舉辦我們也希望行政院跟我們經濟部可以大力的協助好不好是的好 謝謝莊部長那我再請教一下我們的郭部長跟我們國發會的我們的劉主委劉主委麻煩請國發會備選"},{"start":11293.354,"end":11316.528,"text":"劉主委國務長覺得那個台積電都不是他的指控師不過你國發會對於台積電有投資你也是他的董事你對他的了解應該很大吧應該還可以啦還可以啊那個我想請問現在台積電即將赴美"},{"start":11320.1,"end":11346.019,"text":"再投資三座,還是五座?六座總共呢?總共六座,再加三座嘛還有兩個Covas廠那請問,如果未來有六加二座,就是八座在美國那相關的零組件會不會都過去?"},{"start":11347.1,"end":11369.567,"text":"基本上以我個人的立場我希望過去的原因是他有需求如果這個需求被別的國家的人拿走對我們國內的產業是不利的那我們希望讓台灣的產業立足台灣放眼全球我們希望攻城掠地讓他們在美國也可以發展進而奪取美國的半導體市場"},{"start":11371.185,"end":11385.796,"text":"所以你希望其他的供應商都過去嗎我也跟委員報告一下我們在半導體的化學材料已經做到純度世界第一所以現在其實美國的大廠也發現台灣的產品的優良也開始跟台灣買"},{"start":11387.185,"end":11411.374,"text":"在沒有台積電的情況下已經有兩家廠商已經到了美國去設廠賣給Intel所以我們希望幫助台灣的產業鏈能夠再放遠全球尤其在兩個部分第一個是材料的部分第二個是設備的部分這是我們目前的短板我們希望讓它進入全球然後放大整個產業的發展這是我們供應鏈任性的一環但是國內非常多的業者"},{"start":11414.184,"end":11429.683,"text":"會擔心的是如果我們全部都移到美國去了那台灣剩下什麼我們剩下關鍵技術跟最新的製程以及我們的研發能力因為我們會把它留下來"},{"start":11430.986,"end":11445.997,"text":"報告委員 不是台灣的產業移到美國去我們是工程列定我們是護國神山的周遭我們護國神山都移到美國去了護國神山的周遭也有一些是我們最先進的技術如果只有護國神山去"},{"start":11446.497,"end":11467.234,"text":"我們的技術沒有去他在那邊重新開發會造成回頭跟我們這裡的相關產業變成競爭所以主要的意思是護國神山去我們相關配合的供應鏈產商也要去保持我們永遠在護國神山以及旁邊隨時供應鏈各種供應鏈上的領先地位到底去多少"},{"start":11468.514,"end":11496.173,"text":"這個我要通過何人的評估這個去多少是民間自己的意志我們現在沒辦法評估等他到經濟部申請的時候我們就會很清楚那去了一部分好了那留在台灣的是最關鍵的技術你能確保他會持續的壯大嗎我們要要求所有的廠商保持台灣關鍵領先的地位保持台灣關鍵技術的地位劉主委"},{"start":11498.218,"end":11519.869,"text":"廠商要壯大一定要有市場我說台積電在台灣會繼續壯大嗎這個位置的董事長在總統吳德記者會講得很清楚在台灣的投資沒有改變11個廠沒有改變這他有講得很清楚報告委員這個是這樣子就是說到美國去他生產的不是最先進的"},{"start":11520.799,"end":11536.665,"text":"他希望是最先進的但是台積電他這個公司來講他不可能沒有把握的東西就在那邊生產所以他需要台灣的供應鏈這個也就是說我們總統最近在呼籲的希望把半導體這個供應鏈能夠大家"},{"start":11541.387,"end":11566.779,"text":"有一個聯盟的倡議所以我們現在經濟部就是在幫助台灣的廠商然後再結合國內外的所有半導體供應鏈的廠商能夠在台灣做最先進的研發當研發都落在台灣的時候我相信不管在不一定是在美國全球各地要發展半導體的他一定要來找我們"},{"start":11567.059,"end":11593.834,"text":"那是不是因為在美國的廠那到底有沒有辦法就是說那麼快的生產還是他建廠的過程就會有問題跟委員報告就我個人專業的這個經驗來講蓋一座廠這麼先進的一座廠如果沒有經驗去蓋那麼他肯定要花三年的時間"},{"start":11595.455,"end":11621.062,"text":"那美國也沒有台灣建廠的這樣的一個過去的經驗所以他剛開始蓋第一個廠就像這個魏董事長講的他吃盡苦頭我相信他蓋第二個廠可能會有一些進步不過還是沒有辦法借重台灣的經驗的話所以他才講說那我可能要一千個人過去來協助他順利所以我們可以看得出來"},{"start":11622.182,"end":11636.993,"text":"也就是說它可能四年內它怎麼樣加快速度但是受限於當地的建築開發廠商或者是這些建築廠商是不是有辦法在四年內蓋出來這些廠"},{"start":11640.336,"end":11664.888,"text":"這個是不是那麼容易可以做得到的一件事情那如果我們現在就是連台積電他這樣子的就是一個已經在那裡有廠的公司他都沒有辦法有就是說能夠按照他預期的去蓋廠那未來我們如果有更多的供應鏈過去的時候那我們的廠商是不是"},{"start":11665.848,"end":11686.721,"text":"所以供應鏈它會有選擇以現在就是說我不一定要在美國生產我在台灣製造完了以後然後送到美國去然後做最後一個製程最後一個製程很重要就是說半導體它在捷徑的環境裡面去製造所以我相信很多的廠商會把Last Mile放在那裡做Cleaning"},{"start":11687.361,"end":11703.139,"text":"所有的Cleaning都是包括Components包括所有的Special Parts包括他穿上Operator所穿的這個無塵衣無塵帽無塵鞋子這一些東西都是需要Cleaning我相信Cleaning的廠商一定會過去"},{"start":11704.11,"end":11717.681,"text":"但是其他的因為任何一個供應鏈的廠商他大概一條生產線是半導體晶圓生產線的十倍大所以對他來講這個量台積電將來在那邊蓋六個廠"},{"start":11722.085,"end":11747.37,"text":"跟六個廠的量大概只可以滿足供應鏈一個小廠的生產量所以廠商今天到美國去他沒有義務去他要能夠賺錢他才會去所以我們認為可能會有一些最後的製程最後的需求可能會過去但是那個必須要市場夠大"},{"start":11748.65,"end":11769.893,"text":"但是美國確實太大了這個在亞利桑那下一個市場一定是在德州德州那邊有很多半導體的公司但是相距大概有兩千公里所以我在想一般台灣的供應鏈廠商都非常的小型小型的廠商對海外的經驗第一不足"},{"start":11770.393,"end":11796.658,"text":"第二個他的財務也會有困難第三個人才也有限所以你要現在把他帶過去其實沒有那麼簡單即使美國這樣的要求但是我想台灣的供應鏈廠商沒有那麼容易去移動這個是可以跟委員分享的部分所以我們認為台灣的廠商他一定會在重視他有市場的地方才會製造"},{"start":11798.018,"end":11816.258,"text":"但是供應的方法不一定只有在當地製造供應的方法也可能在台灣製造然後透過Logistics運送快速的運送送到滿足客戶的需求這個部分在我們過去的經驗上面都看到這樣的一個結果所以跟委員報告就是說比較專業的報告的話"},{"start":11817.739,"end":11843.181,"text":"我們尊重國內的供應商那麼他們如果有意願去發展這個美國的市場包括我剛才講的可能是生產完了以後可以賣給德州的廠商或者賣給這個華盛頓州的廠商等等但是他要有意願第一個意願他的意願一定建立在他是有獲利的這個情境下才會去那經濟部的立場就是幫助他"},{"start":11843.982,"end":11858.906,"text":"能夠快速的出海快速的落地然後能夠賺錢我要他的目的是他能夠賺到錢所以我們現在經濟部跟美國在談的也就是說不重複課稅也就是說這個不重複課稅不重複課稅雙重課稅談到哪裡了"},{"start":11864.708,"end":11884.241,"text":"現在眾議院已經過了現在參議院在備對經濟部來講的話就是幫助廠商能夠很穩健的在美國建立其他生產的態勢所以我想委員關心的這個命題是非常的重要"},{"start":11884.801,"end":11900.303,"text":"但是我們的供應商因為都太小型了小型的供應商非常的多所以他們會衡量自己的能力這裡面包括雖然有市場但是所以沒有能力過去的未來就要瞌睡是不是"},{"start":11902.661,"end":11925.439,"text":"我們現在跟美國在談,另外一方面保護,我們也跟美國在談,是不是在半導體能夠跟台灣一樣,台灣現在在科學園區裡面所有進口的材料、設備、零件等等是免稅的,所以我們也希望美國那邊就這一方面來講,"},{"start":11927.421,"end":11946.607,"text":"他也能夠免稅這個是我想作為我們將來談判的一個非常重要的一個關鍵好那我們知道經濟部也在推動了就是自駕車的相關的計畫在張濱工業區裡面有張濱鹿港觀光的接駁案那我想要請問現在自駕車他除了"},{"start":11950.868,"end":11975.911,"text":"可以在因為張濱工業區裡面他是一個比較人比較稀少的但是有沒有辦法在像彰化市啊像彰化市在八卦山旁邊他交通比較繁忙的區域有沒有可能在這樣子相關的區域一般來講我們希望不影響這個所有的城市的動作動態所以這個測試呢可以在晚上"},{"start":11976.651,"end":11989.976,"text":"夜間在某一個區塊固定的區塊我們經過公告這個當然要地方政府能夠配合因為畢竟現在已經從電動車要發展成自駕車了這也是未來整個AI的"},{"start":11997.959,"end":12020.028,"text":"就是相關的發展的一個趨勢如果永遠都只有在觀光區在工業區裡面那這樣子就沒有辦法發展成一個他這個需要跟委員報告就是說他在工業區或者在實驗區裡面他有安全的考量所以當你這個智慧城市"},{"start":12021.148,"end":12048.03,"text":"這個周邊配套的都已經完備了以後那麼我們自駕車就放到這個智慧城市的這個區域裡面去進行這個事情我想我們現在有很多的這個配合也就是說每個地方他要做智慧城市的這個開發跟研發那麼我們自駕車當然就是其中的一部分那麼在還沒有得到這個地方政府的配合情況之下自駕車只能在自己的有安全"},{"start":12048.891,"end":12049.573,"text":"無綠的場域裡面來做實驗"},{"start":12053.987,"end":12079.724,"text":"你認為什麼時候我們的自駕車可以發展成在馬路上因為畢竟還有我們的產業什麼時候可以切入自駕車因為現在其實我們知道的我們電動車在發展的過程當中因為零組件的減少導致於我們現在電動車相關的產業大家也面臨到一個生產的瓶頸"},{"start":12080.484,"end":12095.714,"text":"那未來又是自駕車的這樣子一個時代那台灣怎麼切進去那怎麼樣子能夠讓我們就是台灣相關的零組件的廠商能夠及早佈局能夠切入這個相關的這個產業鏈裡面"},{"start":12098.429,"end":12112.825,"text":"報告委員因為台灣的市場其實還不夠大所以我們建議台灣在做自駕車的廠商他要做成EMS也就是說幫人家做代工不是自己的品牌"},{"start":12113.425,"end":12141.253,"text":"但是是共同的它可以生產因為有生產的經濟的量出來以後那麼我們台灣做這些零組件的廠商就會有很大的量它可以降低成本那台灣因為這樣子的話替別人替有品牌的公司來代工製造的話這裡面呢我們可以得到比較高的這個利益因為為什麼因為我們幾乎啊自駕車裡面所用的電子零組件這個都是我們台灣擁有非常高的優勢"},{"start":12142.293,"end":12165.044,"text":"那第二個做EMS代工的這個產業在台灣來講已經非常的成熟台灣的EMS會得到世界啊任何的這個有品牌公司的讚許主要是我們具有速度又好 謝謝謝一鳳委員的資訊謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢"},{"start":12170.37,"end":12188.161,"text":"歡迎各位現在在議場二樓旁聽的來自屏東潮州長津協會的好朋友熱情歡迎歡迎各位我們上午的質詢到此為止本次會議沒有委員提出臨時提案我們不進行臨時提案的處理下午兩點三十分繼續開會進行質詢先來休息"},{"start":12286.749,"end":12287.363,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14030.1,"end":14031.067,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14686.056,"end":14686.766,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14965.889,"end":14966.315,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":21603.837,"end":21606.098,"text":"報言會我們現在繼續開會進行質詢我們接著請陳廷飛委員請質詢謝謝院長我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21633.086,"end":21652.467,"text":"林委員好我們零一二一的地震在第一時間其實我們就已經要求要比照零四零三花蓮地震災害的重建的標準來處理那現在也已經都開始"},{"start":21653.027,"end":21671.419,"text":"已經進入到在核發所有的一些補助款的部分紅單黃單但是確實速度有一點緩慢因為我們必須要經由土木技師結構技師建築師工會然後去做一些負評的動作那當然"},{"start":21672.941,"end":21685.316,"text":"現在還有一個問題其實從過去到現在都存在的我想今天剛好要拿出來跟我們院長還有我們內政部來討論一下就是說我們紅單跟黃單"},{"start":21688.36,"end":21714.226,"text":"我們一般的建物現在的這個復平之後都沒有問題金融土木技師結構技師跟建築師他們復平之後那麼依照他們給予的建議來做一些補助或是指引我們這間房子的一個重建方向那現在問題來了我讓我們的院長看一下其實"},{"start":21715.905,"end":21741.205,"text":"在這些圖片當中這是紅單你看在外面貼了一個紅單這個是牆面嚴重裂開這是紅單再來我們看黃單地基結構下陷然後還有屋頂磚瓦破裂漏水還有我們的樑柱受損甚至是輕鋼架受損這些都是黃單那麼院長"},{"start":21745.041,"end":21769.159,"text":"這是我們的廟宇我們的廟宇可是我們的廟宇如同一般的建物被貼了紅單跟黃單但是他們拿不到補助因為他們被認為是民宅所以沒有辦法拿到補助可是這是不公平的因為他們基本上也是建物"},{"start":21770.831,"end":21789.103,"text":"可是又因為他們當成廟宇所以他們沒有辦法得到補助連一點點都拿不到從過去其實都存在這個問題我覺得對這些廟宇其實是不公平的因為現在是"},{"start":21791.238,"end":21817.753,"text":"心情堅強 她也是用她的頭部這樣一撥一撥這樣伸起來就因為她她是護世的心靈所以她不能拿到寶座所以院長 我覺得這是極度不公平而且這一次 你知道在台南我們說真的就是眾神之都而且在我們這一次南西獄警"},{"start":21818.988,"end":21825.935,"text":"大內在這麼多東山這些地方在山區其實廟宇非常的多所以現在大家挨挨叫明明他們已經被貼了紅單跟黃單"},{"start":21835.728,"end":21862.62,"text":"沒有貼的我們不說就憑著已經被我們相關土木機師結構機師貼了紅單跟黃單就憑這樣他們也拿不到主院長我們是不是應該要思考一下他也是建物啦他只是生命的大但是他家裡人有可能比我們平常人還多"},{"start":21865.171,"end":21885.658,"text":"所以這個部分該怎麼辦謝謝陳委員當初地震之後0121之後委員跟著很多委員跟著我我們跑了好多地方大家很清楚的了解地方的狀況那為什麼這個整個核定的時間會比較慢因為紅單照我手上的資料現在500多件"},{"start":21887.539,"end":21902.369,"text":"黃丹也1600多件其實院長關鍵在哪裡你知道因為在0121之後餘陣又特別多所以我們是做了第二次第一次完我們又做第二次我們為了慎重起見慎重起見也進行了很詳細的負評也謝謝三大工會"},{"start":21906.312,"end":21925.231,"text":"香港大公會一而再的那工程會我也一直要求他一定要核實那至於說我們這個是針對受災住宅的一個補貼啦所以剛剛委員所說的才會有那種狀況那現在整個執行開始執行以及過程當中怎麼樣去面對剛剛委員所說的這樣的狀況是不是請劉部長來說明一下"},{"start":21928.903,"end":21957.012,"text":"謝謝陳委員對於廟宇的關心原來我們在0121的這個地震的時候呢所做的不管是重建啊修繕都是針對有住人的住宅的補貼或者是修繕等等這些我想委員非常清楚那如果是跟公共建築有關包括學校農會的話他各有原來的目的事業主管機關來幫忙那有關廟宇的部分第一個他有沒有登記有案或者是說他原來在建的時候呢那裡面沒有住人那我想我是不是請我們自己的總理司啊"},{"start":21958.153,"end":21983.929,"text":"來跟委員這邊聯繫一下如果有廟宇的需要有修建的補助的話我們來看看用什麼樣的檢討方式可以來協助他們但是我們首要的部分是在於地震之後對於有住人的部分不要有危險產生那現在委員所提示出來不管他是紅單還是黃單還是急需要協助的話我們來看看有什麼樣的方案可以比照基本上這裡面都會有住人"},{"start":21984.95,"end":22006.125,"text":"他並不是其實在山區的廟宇他們都會有住持或是會有在地方負責的人因為他在山區他如果是有合格的建物的話我們會按照合格建物或是住宅的修繕補貼的方向來處理那是不是我們再盤點一下看看用什麼樣的方式可以解決災民的困擾"},{"start":22008.507,"end":22030.762,"text":"陳書偉說明報告委員那麼1月21號的地震台南市政府在2月6號就已經有公告那公告的部分就是說紅單黃單裡面如果涉及到要重建要拆除的那麼他就補助呢按照台南市的相關的自治條例類似徵收自治條例"},{"start":22032.103,"end":22048.718,"text":"技師去評了多少百分之百就補助那修善跟補強的也是百分之百就是完全有技師那麼去去負評是因為我們有0206的這個善款所以這個部分沒有問題那其中只有一副呢結構比較問題"},{"start":22050.399,"end":22077.504,"text":"要做補強而且不用拆除這部分內政部也答應這一戶的部分內政部會來協助至於剛才委員所講的廟宇我想因為我們是善款給非公共設施道路學校這個主管機關廟宇的部分我想如果是主管機關是內政的話我想內政部會針對廟宇的部分比照"},{"start":22078.464,"end":22087.077,"text":"台南市政府的公告內容給予協助因為廟宇比較不一樣因為出入的人其實非常多"},{"start":22088.188,"end":22115.37,"text":"他可能危險性會比一般如果你沒有給他一些協助他只是期待就是說為什麼一般我們的所謂房屋的紅單黃單有所謂的補助可是為什麼在廟宇當中就沒有那我覺得說剛剛部長所說的很清楚了那我們會請民政局因為現在民政局他有報了一個計畫上來可是我覺得那個計畫可能對你們來講很難"},{"start":22118.032,"end":22143.505,"text":"能夠容納所以我覺得要重新盤點之後把一些實質能夠去協助幫助的否則當時候其實我們從過去很多地震所造成廟宇的損害只要不是古蹟他就沒有辦法得到補助那現在這一次會比較嚴重是因為剛好在山區山區我們在很多的廟宇都在山區"},{"start":22144.969,"end":22154.169,"text":"所以這一次在整個地震之後廟宇的受害非常嚴重所以你才會看到有這麼多的紅單黃單而且實質他們有去看"},{"start":22155.718,"end":22181.822,"text":"這些紅灘黃灘表示這些結構技師、土木技師、建築師都去看了確實有立即危險可是沒有辦法處理我覺得我們應該站在協助的立場看怎麼在這個部分用專案來幫忙可能這個對於未來我們的這些公共安全會更有幫助所以這個部分再拜託院長、拜託部長還有拜託我們的主委大家共同努力"},{"start":22182.162,"end":22207.542,"text":"好 再一次謝謝那這個部分我會請民政局再重新做一個盤點出來謝謝你請劉部長進一步去了解謝謝那院長我想這是非常嚴肅的問題這個馬上會遇到是因為今年今年的冷氣團特別不一樣到現在三月份還有冷氣團聽說還有一波冷氣團是"},{"start":22210.635,"end":22228.532,"text":"是因為這個樣子 所以大家感受不到可是我們很擔心 這種天氣變化它的一個極速性 極冷極熱所以當如果到五月六月極熱的時候現在大家開始在吵 電價怎麼辦"},{"start":22230.799,"end":22249.925,"text":"我們當時候其實在112年我們也因為要穩定電價因為現在燃料國際燃料的價格是非常恐怖的在整個國際間其實是居高不下的所以在這個狀態之下我們一直在112年我們又增資1500億以後特別預算撥補500億用這樣的方式然後在113年我們原本"},{"start":22260.949,"end":22276.779,"text":"預估我們要追加預算一千億但是已經出委員會了因為我在經濟委員會我非常清楚出委員會囉現在代協商再來今年的根本不用說啦就直接被砍掉"},{"start":22278.407,"end":22304.305,"text":"院長我很擔心原來我們希望藉著這個撥補因為這不應該是轉嫁在人民的身上我們用撥補來抑制這個店家這樣的一個所謂難以控制的一個方向但是我們現在從去年到今年我們的撥補都已經包括追加預算撥補都被刪掉甚至還在協商這怎麼辦"},{"start":22306.559,"end":22335.098,"text":"這個電價怎麼辦大家開始擔心了謝謝委員一直支持中央政府總預算的內容也一直關心台電我在這裡也代表台電28000名同仁向委員表示感謝我們對於電價的考慮一直是從反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳以及使用者付費這樣的原則來看那其中會看到照顧民生穩定物價是其中兩個相當重要"},{"start":22336.039,"end":22357.134,"text":"我們當然不是我們來決定電價是電價審議委員會但是我想院也好部也好跟台電都會用這樣的原則來做內部充分的討論我們絕對不希望造成民生物價的大幅的波動或是內心的一種驚慌所以我也請郭部長好好的把這個"},{"start":22358.675,"end":22369.393,"text":"狀況收集條件收集分析好之後有期有時間到了需要提供給電力駕駛委員會的時候國保黨自然會用這樣的原則去做溝通我希望能夠平穩大家的心情"},{"start":22369.773,"end":22391.423,"text":"院長這個很重要因為我們現在開始在下鄉我們在討論這個總預算的問題跟大家知道我們未來我們國家的方向可能我會被總預算去卡到可是我想這就是最現實的從去年的追加"},{"start":22392.233,"end":22399.32,"text":"沒有出我們的大院然後到我們的撥補又被刪掉這個東西"},{"start":22403.091,"end":22423.198,"text":"這兩千億的問題怎麼辦 怎麼辦所以現在大家都在問 啊 委員啊 啊我們五月份六月份 啊我們的電價要怎麼樣大家很擔心 就像剛剛院長所說的 我們不能讓大家恐慌因為我們的電價會影響到物價"},{"start":22424.538,"end":22450.773,"text":"這個一上去就回不來了所以為什麼我們一直希望說我們台電的撥補很重要因為在國際的燃料整個的價格不是我們控制的我們不能因為這樣影響到我們的電價甚至在影響到我們的物價所以我們在每一次經濟委員會在審議的時候甚至在質詢的時候我都支持一定要撥補"},{"start":22452.125,"end":22476.057,"text":"可是郭部長他也要考慮到台電的財政健全跟結構我們會從這個先從財務面來協助台電能夠穩定然後再從其他的應該要努力的從創電然後到這個售電來分離我想我們希望在這個撥補的部分能夠"},{"start":22478.319,"end":22501.879,"text":"彌補過去因為照顧民生而產生的這些債務所以我們希望這個撥補還是要請求大院能夠給我們這些輔助因為院長其實在過去我想在經濟委員會很清楚我們1000億你們也只刪了30億但是現在送到大院來"},{"start":22502.62,"end":22524.861,"text":"可能這個地方被整個刪除我們覺得是希望能夠再繼續溝通然後希望這個大院能夠同意再給我們補支部長我們在審這個預算的時候你也在現場我們光為了這個我們論述了多久啊結果我們那麼認真在經濟委員會審然後在大院大筆一揮就把我們刪掉那請問我們經濟委員審幹嘛"},{"start":22527.388,"end":22551.931,"text":"這個是民生問題耶不是政治問題所以我們真的拜託要好好審視這個部分因為沒有撥補我們很怕好謝謝陳廷輝委員質詢 謝謝卓院長各部會長 謝謝接下來我們請廖先祥委員請質詢"},{"start":22568.305,"end":22571.626,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩請卓院長麻煩請卓院長再次備詢院長午安那我今天的質詢大概幾個方向這個幕僚可以先準備一下沒關係首先會先跟您討論這個地方的軌道建設接下來可能是台六十二延伸的問題然後再來台大金山分院的這個"},{"start":22596.869,"end":22622.867,"text":"這個擴建那最後白袍乎 汐止白袍乎的問題那接下來可能還會再跟你討論這個台積電問題啦我今天的順序大概是這樣子喔那也先讓幕僚知道可以先做一些我們希望有一些實質的討論啦那第一個就是我們的軌道建設啦我想先請教院長我們通案性的問題通案性的問題就是財化法通過之後原則上我們行政院補助地方的軌道建設的補助比例應該也會有所調整嘛 對不對"},{"start":22624.287,"end":22644.267,"text":"財化法通過之後現在依照新修正的財化法從中央要少掉3753億那3753億從哪裡來總不能憑空掉下來所以一定會重新核定跟一些地方的補助的案件甚至順序 時間 內容都要重新再看過所以我跟院長確認一下"},{"start":22645.288,"end":22659.894,"text":"新的案子用新的補助辦法這個我可以理解地方拿到更多錢負擔更多我都贊成所以剛剛院長的意思是已經核定的案件可能也會重新的拿出來審視一下補助的比例跟起承的問題是嗎"},{"start":22660.854,"end":22686.1,"text":"我會要求重新再來看看有需要調整可以調整而且必須調整的方法所以所有的案子你們都會調整那我了解OK那沒問題那我今天開始先第一個討論我們汐止汐止的軌道建設第一個我們汐止的軌道建設大概分成兩條線兩條線就是過去的汐止民生線跟基隆捷運那分三個部分因為汐止民生線差離一半就是從汐止到東湖先做東湖到大稻埕"},{"start":22688.2,"end":22714.045,"text":"目前還沒有準備要動工那汐止到東湖這一段預計要在後天3月20號新北市政府就要辦實質的這個主體工程的動工典禮了啦那這個一條線原本有十多站那當初可能因為種種的原因所以切開一半汐止這一邊 汐止到東湖先做那現在台北市也有意願要接續後續的一個工程就是從 也不是工程 就是規劃從東湖大到老城 他們現在也開始規劃了"},{"start":22715.345,"end":22733.039,"text":"那一條線當初被切了一半效益一定是比較差的那我請教院長您會不會也是認同這樣的觀念一條線應該要整條的來規劃才會是比較有效益的未來也是會建議地方政府積極的來把他們應該做的工作來完成來給地方 來給中央政府進行審議"},{"start":22734.22,"end":22760.158,"text":"細節我請部長講 但我現在表示由此更看得出來很多的相關工程 軌道 跨年度的 跨縣市的由各縣市去做不見得是非常順暢的一件事情中央統一來規劃 計劃性的來規劃才是國家整體建設的發展有過相關的論述我覺得也是有部分是正確的是報告委員 過去會有這樣子的狀況是因為"},{"start":22760.778,"end":22786.514,"text":"新北市政府跟台北市政府大家所持的立場對這背景我知道我只是想問一下我們的方向是不是支持地方政府來繼續來推動那當然地方政府該做的功課當然要做好嗎其實民生繫紙線這一段也相當的有需要啦所以這個部分我們當然希望可以整段一起來規劃那過去的台北市政府或許他沒有這樣子的意願不過現在的台北市政府他們有這樣子的意願我覺得新北市政府跟台北市政府要好好去談"},{"start":22787.034,"end":22811.077,"text":"好,所以我想大家的方向都一樣,那各自要努力,大家就各自努力,好謝謝那另外一個是我們的基隆捷運,因為過去這個基隆捷運的一開始我們行政院核定的方案是700億嘛那前兩天有新聞出來,就大概新北市政府目前原本要送給中央的是1200億嘛,對不對那當然我們現在交通部建議他先依照700億來先送省嘛,這是700億,核定的部分先做加快來啟程"},{"start":22811.818,"end":22838.035,"text":"但是後續還是有這500億的差距啦我們先不討論這個補助集聚的問題這個是整個行政院的方針的問題那我有去跟新北市政府了解那大概500億的差距大概有以下幾項分別是我們這個暫停的一個設計啦過去可能是簡易的後車停那他們就提升標準為中運量的標準設置包括我們的廁所這個收費閘門等等的那包括我們無障礙電梯啊我們手扶梯等等他可能會新增這些項目"},{"start":22838.735,"end":22860.328,"text":"那以及有部分的基隆的路段可能因為跟台鐵路線競合的關係他必須要從平面改成高架還有當然第三點就是大家都會遇到的問題原物料波動的問題那這個就這三項那新北市政府就是可能他們在預估未來在招標的時候可能會實際上要到1200億才能夠把整體的工程來完成那我想確認一下我們這個"},{"start":22861.869,"end":22870.676,"text":"行政院跟交通部的態度只要我們的地方政府核實了編列沒有服報那我們是不是會繼續願意支持他後續的修正計畫"},{"start":22875.704,"end":22892.944,"text":"這段的捷運其實中央相當的支持我們也希望能夠做好不過當時核定的金額是六百多億快七百億那現在新北市政府拿出一個一千兩百多億的預算而且他沒有經過修正計畫的過程直接就拿出來了那這個對交通部來講會"},{"start":22894.906,"end":22912.973,"text":"他們會依照修正我認為他應該依照正軌就是走修正的這個方案修正的計畫提出來之後交通部自然會來審有沒有哪個部分是不合理的如果是合理的話這個方向是大家都希望能夠推動的基隆的捷運是大家都希望推動的所以我們也會來幫忙"},{"start":22914.053,"end":22932.661,"text":"基隆捷運會繼續的來推動不會因為這可能增加的這可能要給更好的一個搭乘體驗而增加出來的金額而可能去把它中止方向應該是一樣的那當然必須要做的這個地方政府要做的計畫跟中央的審核那就是照程序來走我們中央會繼續支持這個案子嘛"},{"start":22933.241,"end":22952.283,"text":"要看他提出來的修正合不合理目前我完全沒有看到修正的計畫只有看到一個一千兩百多億的預算合定的過程當中包含之前在審這個可行性評估的時候其實新北市政府也都參與在內啊為什麼現在會突然提出一個一千兩百五到目前為止還不知道答案"},{"start":22952.674,"end":22980.322,"text":"好沒關係這個報告裡面後續應該都在提修正報告的時候都會呈現那就是我們不會因為這一天兩晚一看到就嚇到了至少我們會務實的來審查它的必要性我只要確認這一點那當然院長你也放心我說我不知道我們跟您討論過我當然對基隆捷運的規劃是有一點維持我希望有一個更好的一個部分就是部分的路線是有板南線的延伸那當然既然已經沒有辦法了我們已經定案了我也會跟行政院一樣立場跟地方政府一樣的立場"},{"start":22981.262,"end":23008.753,"text":"讓這個案子能夠進出來推動好不好那剛剛部長三個方向第一個現在沒有送到交通部任何的修正計畫所以沒有所謂打回票這件事因為沒有計畫第二個就算要送修正計畫也要合理要合理的對內容做合理的精算再來新北也好基隆市也好甚至台北市也好也要有相同都要有同樣的共識才能把這個計畫完成好沒問題地方政府現在就是先把這七百億做好"},{"start":23009.213,"end":23036.626,"text":"然後之後的修正再請行政院再協助審議那剛剛部長講的部分原則上院長大概都認同嗎交通部在程序裡面要按照執行但是一定要合理好沒問題好謝謝那軌道的建設先到這邊那接下來是我們這個台六十二線分別有延伸萬里跟萬里金山還有延伸萬里兩個方向都有延伸嘛那在去年的時候謝謝行政院在3月19號的時候合訂了那合訂了過後"},{"start":23038.878,"end":23054.834,"text":"原本計劃是今生萬里一次送交通部的方案是這樣子但是我們行政院後續合訂了到萬里的部分這是可行性評估的部分交通部也很幫忙地方的期待能夠說我們只要一條路一定是先到萬里"},{"start":23055.294,"end":23082.862,"text":"才會到金山嘛 大家都可以理解但是大家希望說未來的這個可行性的評估也都能夠納到延伸萬里的綜合規劃報告裡面在一併的討論因為這次可行就只有延伸到萬里嘛金山沒有核定那藉由到萬里的重規一併把金山的可行再重新納進來討論那這樣子的一個方向交通部有幫忙了 有這樣子在做了那我不曉得院方面是不是也支持這樣子的方向繼續來做一些相關的討論跟審核"},{"start":23085.233,"end":23112.98,"text":"好 報告委員 這個部分其實我們針對萬里的部分我們會盡量來努力在114年的2月已經提出了綜合規劃的初期報告那您在講金山的這一段我們後續會繼續來努力好啦 我也希望請院長幫忙可不可以交通部已經知道這個案子的後續的狀況那地方的需求他們當然會很審慎的去回答當然他們已經幫忙了 已經呈現在報告內了啦還是要拜託院長多多幫忙好的 謝謝可以嗎就謝謝 幫忙啦 好不好"},{"start":23115.169,"end":23127.987,"text":"我們盡全力地方的需求依照我們的專業的審核盡量的來幫忙謝謝院長那接下來台六十二線延伸到宜蘭這個比較單純因為已經交通部送到國發會了嘛那國發會也已經"},{"start":23129.847,"end":23154.071,"text":"通過了,也不是通過了,就是他們建議繼續往後續的綜合公開報告來推進目前案子已經送到行政院了你也不要請部長回答了因為案子已經在行政院了你們會簽合嗎?讓這個交通部來進行後續的綜合公開報告嗎?我們看看案的內容,同時要看未來整個中央財政跟地方如何來做分擔所以你知道要送過去了嗎?"},{"start":23155.475,"end":23176.668,"text":"我是還沒有看到可能幕僚單位還在看這沒關係院長可不可以給我一個時間你們多久以內我們回去以後趕快把這個現在流程跑到哪裡去盡快把它就在你們這邊院裡面還有院的流程給個時間好不好多久以內我沒有叫你答應而是多久時間可以可能有一個明確的回應有沒有辦法"},{"start":23178.2,"end":23189.138,"text":"我會回去馬上跟委員報告說我們現在流程到哪裡了那我們一般正常流程我們把它跑完一個月內有一個初步的方向 報告委員好不好報告委員 院長我補充一下"},{"start":23189.918,"end":23211.543,"text":"其實現在不只是總預算的問題還有才化法的問題所以整個中央包含交通部在內到底未來有多少預算可以用在交通上面的建設我們到現在還沒有很具體的把握坦白講所以對於未來的大型的建設尤其是這個比較長線的建設它的經費非常的龐大所以這個的思考我覺得或許會需要一些時間這一點跟您報告好沒關係"},{"start":23214.152,"end":23233.332,"text":"這個應該是部長講不然應該是院長講好啦 謝謝拜託院長再來看是不是在一個月之內的時間給一個初步的回應好不好 我沒有要求你一定要在一個月內核定但是我希望先了解一下我們現在院已經這個審核到什麼樣的程度這樣子剛剛的意思是說我跟委員講現在流程到哪裡那我們可能還需要什麼樣的過程其實部長講的那個是重點"},{"start":23234.614,"end":23253.369,"text":"好 謝謝交通部的案子大概就到這邊接下來討論台大金山分院的案子這個案子比較小啦台大金山分院雖然小但是對地方很重要啦先謝謝台大金山分院長期以來對北海岸鄉親的健康的照顧那也因為他們付出很多大家都評價也非常高"},{"start":23254.73,"end":23274.176,"text":"那所以台大金山分院有一個擴建計畫他們要新蓋一棟的長照機醫療綜合大樓那也經過行政院的核定了只是說你也知道院長也知道物價波動嘛有時候發包沒有那麼容易所以說照標不出去那目前台大醫院非常的幫忙教育部也幫忙就是他們可能先留用一下這個建設經費跟這個"},{"start":23276.216,"end":23294.685,"text":"設備的經費設備經費先流用到建設經費上面來但是後面還是有一些資金的缺口未來可能還是要修正的計畫原本大概十億出頭的一個經費大概只會多一億多啦那這部分是不是院長也能夠在這邊能夠幫忙一下照顧一下我們北海岸的鄉親能夠讓這個建設早日的讓他完成這樣子"},{"start":23295.665,"end":23320.454,"text":"謝德委員台大青山分院我的了解一直是一所相當有特色專業經營的一所醫院也深受地方人士所依賴健康上的維持那目前它的長照以及醫療綜合大樓興建工程原編預算總經費是13.12億但是經過兩次的流標都沒有辦法順利的來達成那至於現在預計是"},{"start":23323.128,"end":23330.449,"text":"3月已經又繼續上網公告了預計在4月還要進行以後就會進行5月進行開標"},{"start":23331.372,"end":23357.461,"text":"4月截止5月進行開標我們當然希望這個開標能夠順利他們會很幫忙先上網公報招標但是經費的缺口還是在後續還是會送修正的計畫因為現在是編13.1而已再拜託我們的院長以後如果說教育部送修正計畫上來的時候再拜訪我們的院長能夠多多支持讓工程能夠不希望他順利開標順利開標完之後我們只要有缺口我們行政院都會支持我可以這樣理解嗎"},{"start":23358.456,"end":23364.242,"text":"我今天跟你很理性的討論院長我們就不要扯那些我今天跟你還蠻愉快的那接下來我要討論這個白袍湖的事情"},{"start":23378.666,"end":23397.185,"text":"好 這個白袍戶的案子啦 這個年初總預算的時候我有刪除預算嘛 這個院長多少可能也有注意到一個民意代表刪了地方的預算 你老實講我有沒有壓力 我當然有壓力啊但是為了地方好 我相信我一定比院長 我一定比寧正部比規劃的人都還了解細節我為了說這樣子的計畫有調整的空間"},{"start":23401.417,"end":23416.536,"text":"社宅在國外經驗非常多年所以他們也會有一些指引社宅挑選的地點非常重要所以說包括聯合國以及OECD都有一些指引希望說它與既有的社區或者是透過都市開發的手段"},{"start":23418.438,"end":23438.087,"text":"與鄰近的住宅去做結合但是我們白袍湖的社宅它是用這個造政的方式那當然造政裡面可能你們還加了一些運動設施或者是社福設施等等的但是你們畢竟還是讀書一格的社會住宅那它可能就會產生了國外長期以來過去發生的這個因為孤立性導致標籤化的問題那這一點我們的規劃單位其實一直都沒有詳盡的說明"},{"start":23443.649,"end":23470.359,"text":"那包括還有其他的問題可能交通的問題啊當初原本的規劃我記得不是一千戶現在原本的後來修正到一千戶原本是兩千戶也是因為交通的問題所以說規劃單位自己有去說的他們也知道這個問題但是實際的交通影響評估也還沒有出來那包括其實預算去年就編了嘛那今年一月內政部自己內部的會議其實還在進行當中很多的老師都有提出許多的意見就是"},{"start":23471.739,"end":23482.444,"text":"我認為整個過程還沒有經過完善的一個討論那就可能非常匆忙的一個上路那所以說我就是有提案把這個預算刪除那在這邊先跟院長跟部長做一個討論我希望說這個案子"},{"start":23487.298,"end":23511.744,"text":"後續的規劃你們目前還是要依照原定的規劃再編一次預算嗎還是說你們願意跟我或是地方再多一點的討論來討論我們白袍屋這塊地到底要怎麼使用才是最恰當的我個人的意見當然是希望說之前部長應該比較清楚我希望說能夠引入一些作為產業的園區因為產業園區它的交通的方向性不一樣它比較不會造成地方交通的問題"},{"start":23513.584,"end":23541.841,"text":"那包括可能輝達在找地點啊可能台積電也在拜託總統嘛都是需要大面積的一個土地我覺得都可以去評估看看不一定說一定能成或者是這是最好的方案但是我就希望說能夠有一些多一些的討論那不曉得我們現在院或者部的立場現在目前是怎麼樣首先很遺憾這個社宅的這個預算被刪除掉之後現在而且刪除的結果產生了不合理的狀況那至於我們當然還是希望努力"},{"start":23542.902,"end":23562.869,"text":"努力能夠讓社宅的這個興建有它的時機的能夠興建的完成但是如果沒有辦法的話那內政部是要改變過去的計畫或是要怎麼做我們請部長來說明其實我先回答院長啦社宅我當然個人非常知我一上任就找了很多的地點在幫忙找地點我相信國家住住中心也非常清楚這個問題"},{"start":23563.829,"end":23581.462,"text":"我推薦的多少地點給國家住住中心去設置只是我對於地點的選擇跟內政部可能有一些不一樣的意見好不好我在這邊再補充說明一下我們在評估的時候其實新北市政府已經同意我們的想法希望在白袍湖的地方設置社宅而且做一個生態園區他們要生態園區啦"},{"start":23585.936,"end":23607.794,"text":"很遺憾的就是說總共被刪除了一億六千萬所以包括設宅的興建簡列一千戶或者是生態園區的工程現在完全停擺那這個預算到底未來能不能通過我們都不知道然後再來就是委員所提到的說要變成運動員或運動產業中心到目前為止我們還沒有看到新北市政府是不是同意這樣的方向"},{"start":23608.374,"end":23630.415,"text":"那再來委員有提到說未來要讓台積電來設廠等等這些如果只有一個18.95公頃的地方台積電要設廠這個土地的面積未免太小所以我是覺得根本就是退回原來重新再考量我覺得很可惜原來新北市政府跟我們的國土署已經講好做設宅而且是做個小造鎮那在上一次委員在質詢的時候其實我們也把這個計畫"},{"start":23632.336,"end":23654.303,"text":"那委員雖然說有不同的見解,但是基本上我們原先會覺得是繼續往前走但是沒有想到這次在預算的時候全部被刪除,再加上一六千萬之外還有一個三百萬是被倒扣回來的,也就是說全部都刪除之外還有個三百萬,我們還要再付三百萬的支出所以我覺得這個計畫到目前為止大概是完全停擺當中"},{"start":23655.103,"end":23680.171,"text":"沒關係,那未來的土地利用你們還有沒有要做相關的討論會不會把地方的民意,包括我本人的意見大家一起集思廣益,一起來把這塊土地做最完善的利用包括社宅,我當初有表明立場除了社宅,你的社福設施就是長照的或者是運動等等的,這些我都支持嘛但我就是對於社宅的責點我認為它應該要在大眾運輸旁邊,包括在氣質的"},{"start":23681.391,"end":23691.06,"text":"火車站旁邊我都建議你們應該要去做一些規劃我想這個目標方向都是一樣的那未來的規劃我想確認一下你們還會不會去做後續的討論那會不會有機會來做一個重新的規劃"},{"start":23696.76,"end":23718.476,"text":"報告委員,如果我們所有的預算都被刪減掉的話,我覺得我們現在先不要輕舉妄動就是說如果沒有預算,我們怎麼再重新規劃或者重新評估你今天沒預算嘛,你當初規劃是幾年前就開始規劃的,那時候有預算嗎?幾年前開始規劃是幾百萬,剛剛我跟委員報告的部分所以說現在開始規劃,重新討論,討一個大家都支持的方向"},{"start":23719.741,"end":23746.768,"text":"然後之後再依序來規劃所有的公共工程建設都本來就是這樣子哪一個案子一開始規劃就有錢那可能會拖比較長一點的時間也請委員多多支持所以你們還是要堅持白袍湖就是按照原定的計畫在推動嗎我相信中間的新北市政府他們在評估規劃的時候跟我們國土署有專業的考量跟參考台北新北市政府就是要那個生態園區而已啦好 沒關係我在這邊跟你做理性的討論今天我們能夠這樣很理性的討論公共政策很好"},{"start":23747.248,"end":23772.69,"text":"是不是我們原編的計畫能夠請內政部跟委員在座溝通說明是要加強什麼樣的功能在裡面或是做什麼樣的調整最好是能夠讓這個設宅的計畫能夠在這裡能夠落實下去那周遭的一些如果可以微調的話我們來跟委員商量對地方有利的對未來發展好的委員長承諾了我就相信您那後續就拜託內政部多多的我們這邊再做接洽"},{"start":23774.711,"end":23786.82,"text":"接下來大家互相溝通一下我不想在這邊做任何吵架地方的事情一吵架了就沒有共識了這也不是我願意的先謝謝院長,謝謝部長接下來我想討論一下台積電的問題這個問題可能會比較刺激一點"},{"start":23795.902,"end":23808.405,"text":"我先跟院長確認一下美國總統川普就任之後對美國貿易逆差大的國家提出了很多課徵關稅提高關稅的做法這樣子的做法您認同嗎"},{"start":23810.258,"end":23826.091,"text":"任何一個國家平衡自己的貿易都應該是他對外經貿政策其中很重要的一部分這也是雙方平等互惠互相幫忙互相成長互相發展平等互惠我支持啦你汽車課我多少我課你多少對大家一樣嘛但不能夠因為貿易逆差"},{"start":23827.452,"end":23841.718,"text":"關稅是一回事貿易逆差是一回事貿易順差還是逆差這是大家的本事怎麼可以用關稅的這個手段來要求別人一定要什麼我賺你錢就要還你錢這樣的道理我個人是非常不支持院長你要幫美國講話"},{"start":23843.478,"end":23865.005,"text":"我說每個國家都會把這件問題當作重要那麼要去如何平衡貿易有很多的路徑跟手段方法很多大家選擇各種不同的方式那因為美國先前也對墨西哥跟加拿大有一些新聞你都有看到嘛提高關稅你來我往什麼的那我們有沒有內部我們討論過假設美國也對我們中華民國對我們台灣"},{"start":23866.465,"end":23884.804,"text":"提出了一些不合理的關稅的加成我們要怎麼因應有沒有討論過模擬過沙盤推演所以美國對外的一些關係也引起不同國家不同的反應有的比較激烈但是至少現在對我們來講我們還在很合理平穩的狀態下雙方進行必要的溝通所以你們會不會"},{"start":23885.845,"end":23906.93,"text":"我們當然有一些想法但是現在我們沒有遇到困難外交的問題不需要大家在這裡好像先下手為強或先大聲所以林哥哥保證如果說美國對我們中華民國對我們台灣有不合理的關稅措施的話我們一定會有反擊措施我可以這樣理解我們會極力爭取不公平的這個關稅對待我國第一個"},{"start":23908.212,"end":23922.097,"text":"極力爭取避免不公平的關稅第二在對等關稅當中一定要雙方基於平等的爭取是一種我可以講你聽不聽是一回事但是我可以做什麼是我可以自己決定現在還沒有發甄請部長來說沒關係你們有沙盤推演你們有復案你們能夠保護國內的產業不要美國說抬高關稅然後我們什麼事情都沒辦法做"},{"start":23929.997,"end":23951.31,"text":"那就可以了當然我們維持我們的領先而且我們避免我們絕對要阻止我們的產業空洞化被懷疑另外就是不公平的關稅我們會極力的避免好沒關係你們有覆案你不一定要在這邊講我講了出來就好像在對美國嗆聲我也不知道這樣的意思好不好但是你們至少有覆案那接下來回到晶片關稅本身川普之前說對台灣晶片課這100%的關稅那院長了解這100%的關稅是怎麼課的嗎"},{"start":23957.873,"end":23977.081,"text":"報告這個委員我想這個100%的關稅只是他們放出來的一種說法但是對我們到目前為止我們並沒有說到這樣的一個我們有去了解嗎我們當然有去了解那他的100%關稅是怎麼克法100%的關稅怎麼克法我問的是晶片它不是一個終端銷售的產品嗎"},{"start":23980.09,"end":23995.964,"text":"所以我們到目前為止都一直在收集市場上面然後跟他們對方我們跟他們在溝通到底你這個100%是要怎麼課稅是中端產品還是在PayPal上面的產品還是在用每一個element去計算"},{"start":24000.488,"end":24022.76,"text":"這個大家都還在溝通部長講的就是我要問的所以我們的政府到目前為止還沒有理解川普政府所說100%的關稅到底是課晶片本身還是後續加工產品或是終端的手機產品到目前為止我們還沒有任何的訊息他要怎麼課我們不是沒有任何的訊息我們只是我們各種的這個simulation都有"},{"start":24023.786,"end":24046.625,"text":"我們都有各種評估不會說只有單一像委員你所說的這樣子我們都沒有我們做很多的評估A案 B案 C案 D案 每一種你都評估過了都評估過好 謝謝那我想因為台灣的台積電的產品單就晶片本身出口到美國的比例我看新聞報導上面寫大概是不到5%啦"},{"start":24047.646,"end":24068.522,"text":"所以說單就晶片來課稅的話老實說對於台積電根本是沒有任何的影響影響微乎其微那如果說是對終端的產品來課稅的話那就會有影響但是好像國際上從來沒有針對終端產品中的某一項的原件去課稅都是對終端產品的物件去課稅嘛所以說我才會去疑惑"},{"start":24069.362,"end":24089.544,"text":"美國政府到底是要對晶片怎麼去克法是 報告委員我想你這個質詢是非常正確啦但是美國到目前為止他也沒有講說他要怎麼克只是講說他要克100%所以對我們來講我們必須要去模擬各種不同的情境然後提出我們因應的方法"},{"start":24090.465,"end":24114.471,"text":"所以台積電他可能也不知道但是他就決定了去美國投資其實說真的我對於其實大家都很不理解台積電為什麼要去美國投資如果說單對晶片來課稅的話就成如剛剛講的不到5%影響微乎其微那我不曉得台積電有沒有被美國威脅過台積電不是一個整合上下中油產業的一家企業半導體制程是非常複雜的每一個人都專心在他每一個的項目"},{"start":24115.58,"end":24143.651,"text":"台積電如果說上游的原料被斷掉的話台積電沒有辦法運作就像現在美國要用EUV去這個牽制大陸的一個半導體產業的發展有沒有聽說過美國曾經想要用這個控制原物料原件的方法例如說一些我看一下 比如說晶圓矽晶圓或是光阻劑等等的這些可能在日本獨佔市場的一些原料來牽制台積電"},{"start":24145.195,"end":24164.962,"text":"聽委員講委員的質詢應該是對這個產業有相當的了解不過我們也應該有信心台積電是一個世界性的大公司他到世界全球做佈局他不僅要了解經濟的發展趨勢甚至整個國際政經情勢軍事發展國防他都要了解我們任何一個人"},{"start":24165.642,"end":24191.745,"text":"都不可能的想自己的想法超越整個台積電的評估但是因為台積電在一月法說會過後就很明確的講不會去美國這個去美國門都沒有那兩個月的時間不知道我的世界發生了什麼變化讓他突然改變了心意所以說我才會懷疑是不是台積電有沒有被世界的變化是蠻快的台積電有沒有受到一些不公平的一些對待"},{"start":24192.245,"end":24219.062,"text":"我想報告委員我想這個半導體您這麼熟悉這個是相當不簡單但是我要跟您報告的就是說在整個台積電的這個他們這麼優秀的一個公司我想他對海外的這個進出一定有他們所有的考慮那他們這個考慮不會這麼倉促也不會說這麼高的一個投資金額可以就是一個人去做決定所以以我們"},{"start":24220.602,"end":24247.474,"text":"對國際企業了解的程度來講的話他只有兩個目的會到這個海外去做第一個就是思考的是當地的市場有沒有這個市場的需求第二個考慮的是有沒有當地的資源他的說法我大概知道啦那那個台積電的部分我們就反正沒有人證實我們也沒辦法揣測啦我只能亂猜一通嘛那回到我們國內台積電到美國投資一千億這件事情"},{"start":24248.467,"end":24272.605,"text":"有沒有影響到輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情這件事情有沒有受到相關的一些擱置還是繼續的推動報告委員這個你也是內行我可以跟你報告台積電的這個RD工程師大概分成三種第一種叫Research第二種叫Develop第三個叫做這個Manufacture也就是improve他良率的工程師"},{"start":24274.624,"end":24280.085,"text":"這個台積電這三種的工程師三種的研發工程師加起來有一萬四千位"},{"start":24281.369,"end":24310.347,"text":"這個就是凝聚我快沒時間了我想問一下輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情有沒有因此擱置這兩個沒有正相關這兩個沒有正相關所以輝達還是繼續的在找地嗎輝達一定會在台灣可是再繼續輔導嘛跟委員報告台積電在台灣既有的投資計畫不會改變其他的主要的大廠在台灣既有的現代投資計畫也持續會進行我最後一個問題我們有沒有評估過假設台積電的這一千億的美金"},{"start":24311.687,"end":24338.491,"text":"改投資在台灣那這一千億的美金的投資可以為我們國內包括建廠土建工程的從建廠開始的就業機會報我們的他生產晶片所產生的就業機會所創造的GDP或者是我們每年的稅收包括我們上中下游產業的一些就業人員或者是GDP的影響跟稅收的影響我們有沒有進行評估過了"},{"start":24339.927,"end":24355.134,"text":"報告委員台積電在台灣有11個廠現在要開始做有11個廠他去美國只是對沒關係我就單純討論這1000億如果留在台灣他可以創造多少的就業機會我們的經濟價值我們的GDP我們的稅收我們這點有沒有評估過了"},{"start":24359.095,"end":24382.858,"text":"報告委員 我覺得這個不是取代性的問題所以在美國投資的一千億 台灣的投資會改變這對台積電來講 我當然不能替他發言但是我在觀察 對台積電來講希望我們的政府能夠做詳細的評估這個一千億是如虎添翼的一千億就像當初的福茂 大家會希望了解對國內經濟的衝擊嘛一樣的 這一千億如果說我們的政府能留在台灣這些就是我們台灣的啊並不是取代性希望我們能夠做詳細的評估"},{"start":24386.36,"end":24395.434,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥委員的諮詢也謝謝主委長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記38號張雅琳委員請諮詢"},{"start":24451.074,"end":24452.857,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請院長麻煩再請周院長備選"},{"start":24465.627,"end":24489.157,"text":"國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義"},{"start":24490.017,"end":24506.057,"text":"然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了"},{"start":24506.698,"end":24535.256,"text":"所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不寒的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的"},{"start":24536.206,"end":24555.511,"text":"所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台"},{"start":24556.371,"end":24573.307,"text":"但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退"},{"start":24574.048,"end":24590.942,"text":"匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎"},{"start":24591.903,"end":24618.533,"text":"那所以呢在今年一月的時候呢歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以呢今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論"},{"start":24620.478,"end":24636.143,"text":"在228當天中樞儀式的時候賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考"},{"start":24636.983,"end":24650.869,"text":"威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點"},{"start":24652.23,"end":24679.781,"text":"解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動"},{"start":24681.522,"end":24695.155,"text":"我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程"},{"start":24695.7,"end":24712.787,"text":"才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方那天在二二八當天總統所說的"},{"start":24713.147,"end":24733.822,"text":"它最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像228這樣的事件所以它把藝光教會把它先把它指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動它整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明"},{"start":24734.824,"end":24748.085,"text":"好跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個"},{"start":24749.264,"end":24767.444,"text":"不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前"},{"start":24769.679,"end":24794.35,"text":"助長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義部長其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來是是可以其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行"},{"start":24795.236,"end":24809.852,"text":"但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎"},{"start":24810.475,"end":24828.535,"text":"所以當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點對我們用這個起點從不移植或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動好那我想我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好"},{"start":24830.957,"end":24857.443,"text":"謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導"},{"start":24858.843,"end":24869.828,"text":"這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實也有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停"},{"start":24882.554,"end":24906.534,"text":"資訊請繼續謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在路民或是站民的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意"},{"start":24907.074,"end":24929.811,"text":"完全背道而馳,把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的,這真的是大開轉型正義的倒側,不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼?好,報告委員,未來這個部分我們可以納入討論,那我回到部裡面,再跟部裡面的同仁來討論,未來的審核的過程當中,把這些也納入。對,那這個部分的話,我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢?"},{"start":24930.547,"end":24938.03,"text":"我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長一起回"},{"start":24952.034,"end":24972.246,"text":"借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面太多我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續"},{"start":24975.563,"end":24989.71,"text":"好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有"},{"start":24990.63,"end":25007.879,"text":"更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這個跟這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時"},{"start":25009.099,"end":25035.396,"text":"期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢"},{"start":25035.856,"end":25046.649,"text":"不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台"},{"start":25048.412,"end":25070.072,"text":"事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富"},{"start":25070.832,"end":25098.731,"text":"可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說抱歉我按錯了"},{"start":25101.141,"end":25127.114,"text":"就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個"},{"start":25127.754,"end":25152.049,"text":"一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童長館那這個兒童長館它是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩"},{"start":25153.75,"end":25176.73,"text":"在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請"},{"start":25177.989,"end":25206.459,"text":"非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎檔案局它就會進行跨部會的協商"},{"start":25207.328,"end":25227.358,"text":"這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是他的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?"},{"start":25229.222,"end":25238.257,"text":"其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者"},{"start":25239.113,"end":25263.711,"text":"所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題"},{"start":25266.96,"end":25287.748,"text":"就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的測競方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正"},{"start":25289.168,"end":25317.142,"text":"那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員"},{"start":25318.142,"end":25342.203,"text":"其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像"},{"start":25343.186,"end":25359.647,"text":"我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主"},{"start":25360.308,"end":25386.565,"text":"甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉啊就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位"},{"start":25387.986,"end":25406.277,"text":"蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性完全支持謝謝張雅林委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長各部會所長的備詢謝謝"},{"start":25419.192,"end":25441.331,"text":"好 接下來我們請登記第39號鄭天才委員請諮詢韓院長 卓院長及各部會首長有請韓院長"},{"start":25446.69,"end":25475.827,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長 韓院長在這裡 麻煩再請卓院長正委員好 卓院長好 來後來後辛苦了 不會 謝謝今天這個總質詢在2月25號院長的施政報告裡面特別提到要落實原住民族基本法"},{"start":25477.133,"end":25504.982,"text":"推動原住民的希望工程這裡面先談這個加強提升加速提升原住民族的教育程度是在76年2月12號這次引用這個現在我還可以找得到的公文事實上在國民政府時代我們念書的時候"},{"start":25506.472,"end":25532.238,"text":"這個升協保障升協優待就開始了這個降低入企標準這個延時總分的25%民國95年9月3號這個杜正勝當任交易部長的時候把這個升協的保障規定做了修正改為外加2%外加2%之前的是"},{"start":25535.714,"end":25563.099,"text":"你只要加分之後就錄起來那個95年修正也就是96年1月開始實施那102年也做了修正是經過我的諮詢協調之後修正了就是希望授權就授權給教育部會同研明會跟大專院校能夠專案調高部分的科系"},{"start":25564.458,"end":25592.88,"text":"專案調高外加百分之五經過多年的實施之後因為很多學校他都不願意提供外加百分之五的科系所以這個我們看這個近五年的大專校宴學生出債協力107年度原住民跟全國的大專學生的出債協力是"},{"start":25597.516,"end":25622.367,"text":"31.9%逐年的上升喔到112閒零度上升到這個落差啊沿漢的落差高達34%所以不降反升所以這個必須要積極的來去檢討這個本席啊這個一再的協調教育部啊能夠"},{"start":25623.84,"end":25648.882,"text":"前面外加5%為什麼 現在少此理化了嘛很多學校也招不到學生所以我們100個名額再加五個位置 五個椅子也無妨嘛所以這個部分這個教育部是不是請這些能夠支持教育部能夠修正這個將外加名額前面提升為5%"},{"start":25651.035,"end":25664.682,"text":"好 報告委員其實原住民的夥伴們在文化 表演 藝術 以及在體育在各行各業 百工百業當中非常傑出的優秀的表現已經非常非常多了但即使如此"},{"start":25665.694,"end":25692.196,"text":"我認為這種保障就學的機制維持也是必要的因為我們還是有城鄉的差距我們還是有數位的落差但是如果把城鄉差距數位落差把它補足起來這才是長遠之道但是您說的這個現在原住民學生升學保障跟公費留學辦法他其中目前應該有的保障的這些規定到底執行起來是"},{"start":25692.936,"end":25716.306,"text":"保障的不夠還是人數的不足還是有什麼其他資金上的困難我講請教育部 請部長來說明謝謝委員關心原住民的一個受教權那我想在這個部分我們是非常佩服的但是就大學現場事實上我們大概很多的學校大概都把這個名額開出來那而且"},{"start":25717.188,"end":25732.477,"text":"用特別的一些管道來招生但是我們也看到現場許多原住民的名額是沒有被用滿的也就是說特定的這些原住民教育裡邊我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":25733.718,"end":25752.469,"text":"原來的這個原住民地區的這些青年朋友他們能夠勇於去接受挑戰我想這一個部分我們會來努力那另外也跟委員報告今年的公會留考事實上我們也特別針對原住民地區的這些生物的學生"},{"start":25755.663,"end":25781.655,"text":"沒有談到公費流考啦針對外加百分之二改為外加百分之五所以並沒有很具體剛才的數字我希望院長希望部長要有感要有感這是真實的數字這個數據還是你們所跟委員報告我們願意來再重新來檢討從31.9"},{"start":25786.854,"end":25810.754,"text":"不降反升差距越來越大差距到34%你講那些我都知道所以這個部分從國民政府都可以那時候就不限名額不限名額只要加分25%就上去了就去念了那現在我們"},{"start":25812.031,"end":25837.323,"text":"支持改為外加不要佔別一般學生的名額我們支持但是希望說從百分之二可以外加到百分之五而這個百分之五從一百零二學年度修正了之後可以專案的部分的科系從葉俊龍部長開始實施一百零五年"},{"start":25839.074,"end":25856.155,"text":"105年開始實施 專案外加5%但是你們的協調不足協調不足所以很多科系就沒有增外加5%所以是不是就直接就修正全部改為外加5%"},{"start":25858.364,"end":25884.202,"text":"這個沒有困難 如果有什麼困難你書面資料提問給我原民會應該會掌握到為何會有這樣的現狀發生因為時間的關係應該有的說是原住民的學生沒有進來我找你們開過會了我也找過教育部開過會了我們有什麼方法鼓勵更多的原住民的青年朋友們加入"},{"start":25885.263,"end":25908.271,"text":"這樣的一個保障的名額裡面現在這個制度應該是否足夠院長 他去考啦 都去考啦高中畢業 高職畢業都去考啦 沒考上啦就是這麼一回事啊說明一下最主要數字都在教育部來報考的研究院的學生我們要鼓勵他們多來考啊多考啦 不是沒有考"},{"start":25912.193,"end":25933.473,"text":"我們今年還特別通過了原住民的一個國際專班為原住民來培養國際人才我想只要有各大學在申請我們都會全力來支持那現在就是說委員所關心希望有更多原住民我們也會在前面來盤點來檢討看有沒有什麼因為不是增加5%的問題"},{"start":25934.634,"end":25959.108,"text":"因為增加5%它只是會讓那個缺額更多我想我們怎麼樣來真正落實讓原住民的一個學習品質能夠提升我想就像委員今天穿的衣服為什麼我今天裡面的衣服跟委員的也是來自於原住民是因為我真確認為台灣生物多樣性、文化多樣性、族群多樣性"},{"start":25959.688,"end":25987.564,"text":"我身為一個教育部長我應該對各個族群有一個更多的一些文化的一個認同跟欣賞任何人不分族群教育是最重要的我完全同意委員的一個也認同委員的一個努力方向我剛才講過國民政府時代就開始了當時不是外加只要加分25%"},{"start":25989.465,"end":26008.167,"text":"就這樣啦 當初今天才十二個早如果沒有外加25%不會去念台大法律系我絕對是沒有念大學所以這個部分現在既然是外加早期又不是外加喔"},{"start":26009.211,"end":26038.122,"text":"現在只不過是請你外交2%改為5%何況這個5%從102閒年度也實施到現在有一個階段性的一個實施顯然這個差距還是越來越大所以應該要調高到5%請教育部往這個方向去努力"},{"start":26039.704,"end":26066.683,"text":"好另外就是說原住民念大專校園除了剛才的一個原因之外到了大專校園之後涉及到教育經費經濟的壓力我念大學四年禮拜六禮拜天都去挑板模啦"},{"start":26068.442,"end":26096.828,"text":"在台大法學院二年級在台大法學院正好宿舍有這個餐廳我中午晚餐收盤子洗盤子邱泰山過去的主委部長陳明通過去的政務官跟我都是同屆的他們是政治系我收他們的盤子洗盤子"},{"start":26099.819,"end":26124.011,"text":"這個接下來跟教育的提升這也是因素之一所以這樣的一個教育減免學雜費也是從國民政府就開始的我當初有減免學雜費住宿費還免費但是還是沒有辦法因應相關的生活的包括很多的"},{"start":26125.41,"end":26153.545,"text":"所以原住民租交易法有這樣的一個規定減免協雜費但是112年6月29號行政院這個減免私立大專協雜費的3.5萬但是原住民的部分因為我們本來已經降低了所以沒辦法用到 用不到所以這個"},{"start":26154.659,"end":26180.276,"text":"整個219億多的經費我們用不到而這個這樣的一個抱歉從107年這個結雜費的減免107年到現在都沒有再增加沒有再增加這個減免的額度"},{"start":26181.178,"end":26198.639,"text":"所以我也開過協調會 到現在為止 事實上已經七年多沒有修正了這個部分也是讓我們的好不容易考上了 結果因為經濟的因素就輟學"},{"start":26201.212,"end":26218.616,"text":"所以這個部分也請教育部行政院希望能夠支持提高調高學雜費減免的數額請院長能夠支持謝謝委員提醒我想確實國家在對新世代年輕人的照顧怎麼樣能夠隨著私立學校的學會的"},{"start":26231.483,"end":26251.101,"text":"這個補貼能夠也反映適度的反映到原住民我們會整體來細算然後來看怎麼樣來協助原住民青年的一個教育希望你能夠在這個下年度的預算現在開始鎖邊明年度的預算希望你能夠把它列入進去"},{"start":26252.842,"end":26276.045,"text":"我們都會區的人口已經高達百分之五十一點多院長的施政報告裡面特別提到實踐居住正義營造安居的家園執行社會住宅新辦的計畫這跟內政部也有關係我們先看這個早期還沒有延期法的時候還沒有住宅法的時候"},{"start":26278.017,"end":26305.721,"text":"81年台灣省政府以一億五千多萬興建了基隆的原住民國宅而且土地還是爭辯為原住民保留地新店的中正原住民住宅83年這個是兩億一千三百多萬兩億一千三百多萬"},{"start":26309.653,"end":26339.174,"text":"然後新北市的三峽原住民文化部落整個是兩億八千零九十二萬也請內政部部長也上來麻煩請內政部長備詢三峽原住民文化部落剛剛講到一百五十戶民國八十八年中央人民會以四億九千兩百萬架構直接購買民間的集合式住宅"},{"start":26340.643,"end":26368.486,"text":"提供給原住民126戶的來住戶原基法94年2月5號公布施行現在正好20周年政府應該設定原住民族住宅政策住宅法第二條第四項規定為了原住民族的教育及文化"},{"start":26369.804,"end":26393.764,"text":"語言文化的提升大家住在一起都會期啊大家住在一起語言文化包括教育的提升比較能夠所以要精建專攻原住民成豬的社會住宅這是105年12月23號住宅法本席也曾經質詢內政部前任的部長林佑昌"},{"start":26394.81,"end":26419.637,"text":"他當時答覆說在台中沙鹿、新北樹林、桃園大溪總共541戶原住民社會住宅業要規劃興建結果呢這個後來素面答覆的結果台中沙鹿的部分沒有經費新北樹林的部分沒有經費新北樹林說經費要調 人民會說要調經費他也去調了"},{"start":26423.22,"end":26450.38,"text":"桃園大溪的說沒有經費沒有經費跟中央要 中央沒有錢好這裡面 園民會本來中和發展基金新北市的部分就是跟市 園民會說我跟你借錢借原住民族中和發展基金然後一部分你補助給我"},{"start":26451.693,"end":26475.811,"text":"希望能夠興建那原住民族綜合法案基金105年12月31號的結算數是117億7千多萬但是到了今年到了去年了到了去年 人民會的答覆給新北市政府說我們的存款原住民族綜合法案基金的存款只剩下9.1億"},{"start":26478.786,"end":26503.707,"text":"因為絕大部分的經費54億已經被挪用去做進法補償的費用了以無資金來支應這個社會住宅本席曾經執行過內政部的部長到了之前的部長希望能夠住宅的這個"},{"start":26507.495,"end":26533.782,"text":"106年3月27號 諮詢內政部部長他說可以用住宅基金 內政部的住宅基金自建自營新建原住民社會住宅但是已經這麼多年了住宅法修正公佈已經八年三個月專攻原住民的社會住宅一個都還沒有我剛剛為什麼會掀起之前的"},{"start":26535.633,"end":26562.444,"text":"基隆的新北市的三個總共四個就是說在那時候沒有法律的情況之下為了照顧為了提供給都會區的原住民的社會住宅都做了有了住宅法之後已經八年三個月了一個都沒有所以請行政院能夠支持"},{"start":26563.496,"end":26583.745,"text":"以內政部的住宅基金或者是編列公務預算來興建當然直接架構是最快過去我在演民會服務過直接架構是最快 細指的就是直接架構對民間來講也幫助院長是不是交給這個"},{"start":26588.166,"end":26616.4,"text":"這個是一個大議題今天也不必直接答覆了是不是請院長這個警內政部跟園民會當然如果要公務一算原住民委員會的住宅計畫剛合訂的住宅計畫根本就沒有列這個部分了所以國發會也希望能夠支持主計總署希望能夠支持可以嗎"},{"start":26617.588,"end":26645.656,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們再來內部再來商議一下什麼樣的方式現在的制度如果繼續走或怎麼樣我們再來商議一下好 謝謝 謝謝院長好 深化自治這是總統府的這個新聞 新聞稿深化自治好 請那個部長 沒錯蔡政府推動原住民組織制立法的進度的創案包括特別提到"},{"start":26647.588,"end":26676.78,"text":"他說我國早期中央各級民意代表的原住民保障席次以及三地鄉的鄉長保障縣三地原住民來擔任甚至相關的這些學校的校長主任優先兼用原住民都認為這個實質上已在逐步落實民族自治"},{"start":26677.822,"end":26690.069,"text":"也就是說這個特別提到已經具有民族自治的精神我們看這個民國41年戒嚴時期民國41年戒嚴時期動員勘亂時期三地鄉鄉長現由三地原住民擔任這個是當時的法規"},{"start":26702.29,"end":26731.484,"text":"三地鄉的三地公民年滿25歲50人連署就可以去參選這個鄉長原住民的立法委員保障其次從民國61年動員抗亂時期開始從一個名額後來增加到兩個名額後來增加到四個名額現在增加到六個名額曾經最高高達八個名額原住民的立法委員"},{"start":26732.165,"end":26758.207,"text":"當然國大代表也有那我要談的是什麼呢事實上談的就是這個原住民族基本法院長也特別提到要落實原住民族基本法那原住民族自治就是原住民族基本法其中之一很重要的部分所以部落工法人在原住民族基本法也特別明定"},{"start":26759.409,"end":26782.319,"text":"相關的土海法也是在這個原住民族基本法第20條第三項特別規定蔡總統特別承諾105年的時候8月1號講的105年11月1號我們開始發射公告原住民傳統領域土地部落公法人的制度我們已經上路了"},{"start":26783.499,"end":26807.472,"text":"蔡總統還特別提到我們會加快將原住民族自治法原住民族土安法送請立法院審議但是經過8年多了都沒有都沒有送來而人民會的預算原住民族自治的預算總共從105年編列到114年總共已經編列了4,039萬8千元院長"},{"start":26812.864,"end":26841.82,"text":"我在延民會當企劃處處長後來當延民會的常務副主委是陳水扁總統任內當任常務副主委我們沒有編列經費我們完成了原住民主自治法的草案我們沒有編列經費完成了原住民主土地及海域法的草案花了這麼多錢原住民主自治法這八年多來應該是講九年了啦"},{"start":26842.914,"end":26868.044,"text":"這九年來沒有送到立法院這個擦一下這個因為預算已經編了很多剛講四千多萬了所以我就凍結了園民會的預算希望說就不要編預算改為積極的去怎麼樣去落實去推動我不敢刪我不忍心刪"},{"start":26870.1,"end":26898.042,"text":"我當立法委員從來不刪減預算然後這個也是經過我在內政委員會的一個提案張宏祿召委主持的 也沒有反對就同意凍結結果呢就被列為這個復議案的理由啊復議案的違反這個"},{"start":26900.359,"end":26927.695,"text":"司法院的一個391號的解釋所以這個部分這個是額外的他不都談了重點還在於已經編了這麼多預算希望第一個請行政院三個月內發布部落公法人設置辦法部落公法人設置辦法發布之後並不是所有的部落就編成公法人"},{"start":26928.444,"end":26951.537,"text":"他還要按照很多的行政程序從部落會議一直到要提包到縣到中央演民會所以並不是每個部落都要成立第二個公告原住民族傳統領域公告了新店新店區烏來區我講錯了烏來區已經公告將近7年多了"},{"start":26957.522,"end":26978.62,"text":"都不會 沒有怎麼樣啊沒有怎麼樣 所以不要怕不要怕 各部會不要怕第三 原住民族自治法草案 趕快送立法院來審議原住民族土地及海域法草案 趕快送立法院審議好 曾主委要講話我跟委員報告那這個有關部落供火人的設置辦法"},{"start":26980.049,"end":27003.195,"text":"曾經我們也是有公告過但是部落現在的意見還很多但是我們想乾脆我們先來試辦所以今年我們會試辦五個部落那這個五個部落為什麼要找他試辦因為我們自己覺得這個部落的核心幹部比較容易形成共識我們就先試辦今年就辦主委這句話我已經從宜將主委聽到現在我來說我來說"},{"start":27010.731,"end":27032.531,"text":"部落你這個部落設置辦法發布施行之後部落要不要當公法人部落自己決定部落的人民來決定你不要去說服他你不用說服他他自己去開會決定我們會設置這個會設置辦法但是就是說重點"},{"start":27035.539,"end":27057.837,"text":"重點是你要快把部落公辦的設置辦法要發布比較容易成功的而且今年就會做成功的這樣的話我們才會有跨出一步不然永遠都是在那邊你沒有這個設置辦法你怎麼去辦啊你怎麼去試辦啊可以試辦啊用什麼法規依據去試辦啊都不用依法行政了"},{"start":27058.357,"end":27067.628,"text":"就是先跟他說 而且我們已經找到五個部落今年會成功我想到時候我再跟委員報告好不好主委這是完全是違法的你也要訂那個"},{"start":27074.807,"end":27099.496,"text":"部落事辦的辦法部落公法人事辦的辦法你也要定啊在這個之前我們就先去找比較容易成功而且有您紀律的我們先跟他做說明 那才叫事辦啊好 你把那個事辦的計畫提供給我還有你講的這個民主自治草案"},{"start":27100.56,"end":27126.273,"text":"你也知道這個進入立法院已經五進五出嘛這個不容易嘛這個宜江主委已經講了八年了啊確實是五進五出啊啊你說這個土海法的話送到貴宴期齁連討論都沒有討論啊都連排審都沒有排審因為送來的時候這你不了解這我最清楚是我送的送來的時候正好就"},{"start":27129.309,"end":27156.262,"text":"立法委員的任期要結束了這期不聯繫又退回了是這樣的因素並不是沒有審所以這個部分不能因為這樣就不送來好 我們也會整理會再送院長不能因為立法院反而是立法院既然立法院沒有公示就趕快送來嘛不要自己承擔這個責任嘛"},{"start":27158.413,"end":27178.326,"text":"行政院為什麼要去承擔這個責任對不對反過來是這麼一回事確實如主委所說的各方的共識目前一時還沒有辦法達到可以往前再走一大步但是一步一步的往前走這個方向一定是存在的最後時間的關係我本來後面還有議題"},{"start":27182.554,"end":27204.802,"text":"但是重點就是說 我執行過很多次 精良的軍備 要專精的國軍這個預算一直調高提高 沒有問題 國防部長請好 副部長但是我們的志願役逐年下降 志願役"},{"start":27208.223,"end":27225.834,"text":"退伍人數比周末的多志願役士兵人力下降志願役士兵大幅下降這是每年的下降薪資是一個很重要的因素這個薪資每年按照軍公教的調薪3%或4%"},{"start":27229.67,"end":27250.906,"text":"但是紀理跟勞工的基本薪資4萬6千多的平均薪資差距很大我也質詢過這個邱國正部長他答詢說我們多希望提升軍人薪資但是從110年11月2號到現在"},{"start":27254.441,"end":27263.783,"text":"所以這個部分請行政院支持部長就提報部長沒有再好的武器"},{"start":27280.475,"end":27306.798,"text":"在接下來我們請登記第40號郭國文委員請質詢主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27316.035,"end":27323.422,"text":"各位好院長好院長本期這次的總質詢呢首先呢要為這次零一二一的地震的災民來請願"},{"start":27325.615,"end":27347.746,"text":"在零一二一的當天主席院長第一個時間點就馬上到災區裡頭去而且在上禮拜五的時候也應本席的要求馬上同意了住宅的補貼方案本席在那邊表示感謝這一貸款跟租屋補貼都非常的重要"},{"start":27348.786,"end":27369.503,"text":"那你也提到不論行政院或立法院怎麼審查預算但是呢給災民的這個補貼樣樣不能少而且提到說要補助零四比照零四零三的這一種精神跟方式那我們當談到補助的部分我們先談災情的比較我想在數字上給院長參考一下"},{"start":27370.697,"end":27396.282,"text":"因為呢為什麼很多人說為什麼災水那個零一二一的這個部分看起來好像沒有什麼太多的傷亡但是為什麼污損這麼嚴重主要有75%的這個老屋的存在所以都是老屋比較居多再加上這一次地震的強度我給院長參考一下在花蓮的部分它雖然是7.2度然後"},{"start":27399.463,"end":27424.199,"text":"0121雖然是6.4度但是就觀測站的數字Gale這個數字來說的話也就是所謂的地動加速度的部分你去看看垂直向的最高的這個數字在南溪國小是569比起花蓮測站的209是兩倍多另外的部分呢以東西向最高的部分的Gale數據南溪的部分是861"},{"start":27426.021,"end":27436.308,"text":"然後花蓮的部分只有256也就是南溪是花蓮的3.5倍的這種地動加速度再加上呢 房子老"},{"start":27437.165,"end":27451.196,"text":"那老房子又多以至於污損特別的嚴重截至今天早上我統計的數字紅單的部分有500件黃單的部分是1556件未貼單的部分是2065件總共加起來是4121件的污損4121件面對4121件的污損的部分"},{"start":27467.213,"end":27481.06,"text":"要如何去處理當然陳金德政委也提到說要希望台南的善款先優先處理但是依照目前為止目前留下來的0206的善款12億其實是不夠的"},{"start":27485.442,"end":27504.385,"text":"那不夠的原因是這樣如果說你處理黃單跟紅單或許還OK但是如果把未貼單的部分算下去的話就很困難這是目前為止我聽到最多的聲音這是跟院長說明一下一個民間的污損第二個是公共設施的部分"},{"start":27505.236,"end":27529.256,"text":"公設室的部分呢一個是南西的這個陸陶洋的客家聚落的修繕這個中央部會都去過了第二個是學校的部分是南藝大的這個校舍的修繕大概1.6億南西國中也希望原地重建學校的部分第三個是南西市場的部分的原地重建第四個是四大農會的一個修復的工程"},{"start":27530.277,"end":27546.238,"text":"而這些公共設施的部分到目前為止就本席所理解也尚未核定那我在這邊說一下那個院長老實說就0403外界的關注度蠻高的他拿到的善款有16萬"},{"start":27547.728,"end":27565.903,"text":"在零一二一的部分拿到三款只有五千萬相差許多事實上從政災基金會的網站來看的話我覺得政災基金會到目前為止還是很重視零四零三網頁上還是貼了零四零三上面都沒有零一零二"},{"start":27566.86,"end":27588.471,"text":"即便0102到目前為止已經快兩個月了這種情況底下我們是不是應該給0121的這個災民更多的溫暖就有兩個部分再比較一下院長其實我統計過你去花蓮看災的部分第一個時間點就到南溪我想大家都有感受到你的溫暖"},{"start":27589.511,"end":27617.967,"text":"可是相對於你去花蓮市災的部分到本席目前統計已經有七次之多你坐火車非常有誠意但是相對來台南你現在只來一次我不是說次數多一定有誠意但是如果時間有的話可能更多會好一點如果可以的話院長這兩部分的請求能不能請院長有機會來南部的時候來做一個核定之後來做一個宣示第一個公共設施的部分我剛剛列舉了那四項"},{"start":27619.068,"end":27631.202,"text":"第二個的部分呢在台南市立有未待的情況底下在未貼單的部分中央的部分是不是院長可以指示政災基金會能夠多少予以補助讓災民能夠度過這次難關院長請說"},{"start":27634.606,"end":27654.074,"text":"謝謝委員時間我們一定繼續來安排那0121之後我到了現場但之後總統也到了現場他關懷的速度一定次數一定也比我多那至於說我們跟地方政府包括跟黃市長陳主委跟黃市長一直就善款如何使用紅單黃單如何負評"},{"start":27656.949,"end":27673.367,"text":"住宅的部分有一直做相當多的討論那至於剛剛其他的包括學校學校我們也有兩千萬還有另外五百多萬的補助下去另外有一些剛剛列的之外還有江家古厝的文化的一些毀損我們也會另案來做一些"},{"start":27674.008,"end":27698.281,"text":"你做一些必要的修補那另外你提到的那幾個部分客家的部分等等我想都會另案可以再做一個處分院長我在想你應該不會拒絕你應該會同意只是說既然我們要同意合不合定快一點你就下去做個詮釋譬如講以南溪國中的時候政委跟我下去現在就合定一部分是評估費用而已"},{"start":27698.681,"end":27726.257,"text":"那是不是就乾脆就說你就宣布說我就是要原地重建所有費用由中央來出就是這樣子阿沙里一句話就好你就下來宣布一下先把公部門的公共設施做個解決這是其一第二個部分未貼單的部分呢能夠做多少也對外宣布讓大家比較安心能夠趕快恢復生活秩序院長請回答因為這個數量多多到這個負評的時間也拉了長現在最接近的數字我剛剛就給你報告了最新的數字就這樣子"},{"start":27726.877,"end":27747.641,"text":"然後呢 未貼單的部分就2065然後呢 黃紅單就2056就是差在這邊而已政委請給委員報告因為台南市政府在2月6號就正式公告對這些的民宅受損的補貼的原則"},{"start":27750.402,"end":27756.772,"text":"所以已經很明確就是如果拆除的拆除的就是按照徵收條例的"},{"start":27759.488,"end":27784.595,"text":"這個內容我大概就知道了所以這部分就現在盡速把它評出來對 但是它現階段而言紅黃應該都不會有問題是有補助的內容現在argue最多就是未貼單的部分那我比較0403過0403未貼單的部分也是動用那16億的善款而有那我們政災經費目前就我知道大概還有20幾億之多是不是有可能有虞錯"},{"start":27785.655,"end":27805.441,"text":"可以給予那個台南市政府在未貼單部分給予幫助因為這個部分其實在政委的時候的主持的這個會議當中也沒有全然的拒絕啦那如果說有這個可能性的話是不是能夠趕快有所定案讓災民能夠有所移民各位應該是請台南市政府把整個賦品出來"},{"start":27806.301,"end":27827.114,"text":"然後加總數額是多少如果說現有的善款如果真的還不足我們再來共同討論其他的方法不足的部分中央能不能朝向協助的方向先不說金額多少"},{"start":27828.197,"end":27855.777,"text":"應該要先看那個他整個評出來就我知道部分是不足的政委因為他估計他是原來是用每戶多少而事實上是應該現場去看評的修繕有大有小有有那個都有去看那個都有去看其實總體估計起來是不足院長麻煩這部分公部門的部份見早宣布然後私部門的部份見早提出方案各方的數據了解狀況也都相當清楚了那到今天為止剛好經過了對快兩個月了對"},{"start":27858.038,"end":27883.8,"text":"我們會跟主委來商量 我們也跟地方政府來配合我希望我們在月底之前 我們到現場做了解月底之前 好 謝謝 就是聽你這句話月底之前 慎重提出另外一個部分 這個是屬於這個復原的部分 還有一個需要復興的部分復興的部分呢 0403的部分當初我們中央政府對花蓮多重視投入了純五億的政新方案 公關政新方案"},{"start":27884.981,"end":27889.071,"text":"但是呢目前我去中央一樣觀光署要到只有要到兩千萬"},{"start":27890.25,"end":27892.331,"text":"我們當然很重視各地的產業觀光但是您也知道東部就是一條路"},{"start":27920.56,"end":27931.967,"text":"一條公路一條鐵道但是中南部南部我們各種的交通的方式不一定說比照完全比照會重視完全重視那至於說觀光的產業如果受到這樣大的影響是不是交通部還要再繼續的去對"},{"start":27940.532,"end":27959.151,"text":"台南甚至嘉義觀光的產業來做我希望有一個類似於花蓮的一個振興專案出來啦for 0121啦會觀光的部份還有農業部的部長在0121的部份我們景區的應停並沒有受到太大的影響但是確實地震的影響造成一些遊客會減少"},{"start":27961.753,"end":27983.488,"text":"我們會從軟體的部分 也就是活動的部分我們增加活動的經費 多辦一些活動來引客 來吸引客人交通的運輸沒問題 但是活動如果增加讓客人多一些進來 這是我們應該要做的部長我只是提醒你一下 我相信零星的活動會有啦民間也會有 我是希望說我們院裡頭高度的話整合成一個類似的振興專案裡頭讓財民感受到中央政府"},{"start":27984.068,"end":27993.963,"text":"的誠意啦我只是希望這樣子不同於花蓮但是也有一個振興方案啦因為我們已經復原了嘛接下來復興嘛我們跟國防署特別來討論這個事情麻煩好不好然後因為這個振興專案之外山區有一些不一樣的地方"},{"start":28000.612,"end":28025.134,"text":"他有一個古老的問題 目前我們已經有做一些長照機構長照機構的部分能不能加速那現在就我知道的部分 預算也不足 也差了九千萬我就跟院長報告一下 請院長回去慎重評估一下是不是長照的這個機構 目前為止能不能增加一些預算的可能性否則真的搬不出去第三個部分呢 裕豐南河院長期以來的一個限制以至於呢 山區沒有辦法發展"},{"start":28025.794,"end":28048.817,"text":"它現在的用水的定位做一個調整之後呢它將來是有縮邊的可能可以帶動這一個山區的地方發展也就是說它的整個振興的部分有三支箭啊這三個方式一個呢因為震災來的振興方案二來呢長照機構來因應那些的高齡化的問題三來的部分呢這個整個保護區的一個縮邊也可以帶動山區的發展"},{"start":28049.718,"end":28077.182,"text":"我請院長回去好好評估一下因為我現在講你可能不能馬上理解請您慎重評估可不可以謝謝委員如果真的影響到長照那是萬萬不得我們一定馬上做處理 查久先我們馬上速度做處理那其他的官委員建議的部分我們也會同等重視好的那另外一個部分跟本席選區有所相關那兩位就先請另外一個部分在我們海邊的部分花了很多時間在做太陽能"},{"start":28077.915,"end":28094.006,"text":"那過去太陽能當中的這個綠能當中呢其實啊我在去年十月的時候就問過那個郭部長再生能源發展條例十二條之一的部分的執法有關於興建增建義務的這個裝修光電的方向就是要讓屋頂型的光電能夠增加"},{"start":28094.907,"end":28112.346,"text":"但是呢 國務部長在去年也有提到2025 20MW 8MW是屬於屋頂12是屬於地面型的部分的目標延後一年但目前為止地面型因為爭議非常的大只停留在5到6GW而已必須靠屋頂型 屋頂型已經達標了"},{"start":28113.607,"end":28140.751,"text":"可是我們看到為了減少這種地面型的負擔這是第一個爭議地面型的負擔通常都是在偏鄉通常都在農漁村也就是說非人口密集區的部分它承擔了很多政策的負擔七股就是這種例子但是在都會區裡頭用電是最多的大概有六成之多他們負擔反而比較少以至於屋頂型的部分是可以作為平衡發展的可能性但是喔"},{"start":28141.724,"end":28169.585,"text":"這一個最近國土署內政部國土署在2月公布了這個執法建築法設置太陽能光電的這一個標準草案目前還在一個公告期60天的公告期你去看喔它要300坪以上 院長300坪以上可以設置光電只有10%而已而這10%當中我還請人家換算起來這300坪的標準來說的話增加裝置的容量大概多少"},{"start":28170.285,"end":28191.722,"text":"只有0.15提高啊0.15提高啊這個代表沒有實質的效果嘛我們地面型既然已經沒有辦法成長屋頂型已經達標就計畫說屋頂型來補地面型的情況底下你這個又限縮到這種程度怎麼可能達到這個目標呢為了公共設施沒有到300坪你沒有可能達到這個目標啊"},{"start":28192.483,"end":28219.52,"text":"更何況將來你如果要透過金融機構要落實ESG的責任的可能性更加不可能嘛所以現在在法令公告期的情況底下我們如果說像郭部長所說的2025的目標要延到2026我跟你講你2026這個目標一樣會再延啦一樣沒有辦法達到啦會變成這種結果 院長這怎麼辦啊報告委員我們就是朝著這個不延期的這個目標努力"},{"start":28233.531,"end":28235.012,"text":"我們現在休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢"},{"start":28810.236,"end":28811.717,"text":"法務院會我們繼續質詢 接下來我們請謝龍介委員請質詢左院長 請到左院長"},{"start":28837.659,"end":28844.881,"text":"麻煩請卓院長我對債庫來了大家都在問債務,今天都是我們台南的辛苦,臨時來的我告訴你大家先感謝你,對台南的照顧"},{"start":28865.968,"end":28892.019,"text":"感謝這應該大家都應該這樣做但是因為他們沒有在重點受到災害 個人都應該這樣做災民 還沒安在這裡還沒過出來 你要怎麼多錢給他 你也沒辦法你剛才他們外地 我跟你說很危險我是去看啊喔 外地去看 要說好誰因為我外地一定會去看 改國我就給你勾勒啊你呢感謝你啊 感謝你給我勾勒那齁"},{"start":28897.796,"end":28919.155,"text":"你實在是表現很好 優良 演技十足不知道你有沒有一百港幣我看你的演講是很厲害的你以前出來 我看我就沒辦法了我認為那不是演講 我是在說老實話演講就是演講你說老實話 待會我就告訴你什麼叫老實話"},{"start":28927.045,"end":28938.031,"text":"我會在南西的在庫啦在裡面說很多人三不足啦只有你吃了就把錢拿來而已我為什麼要這樣說因為你們是公保門 人家修理的改革整理的都要你們負責嘛 對不對但是安提的過程中有很多說法不能開的"},{"start":28956.735,"end":28977.771,"text":"有一些不便的啦 吃虧的無所不知啦所以我們很懷疑我跟報告委員我又跟台南市國民黨的黨團議會 跟毛黨的黨團因為周一期的在地議員嘛我們跟四五百的在民 副市長五人的局長都在那邊跟他們亂動我才知道 我是很感謝你齁"},{"start":28986.94,"end":28994.683,"text":"我說中央你如果沒有算一個數字,你是中央什麼?你們就乖乖清清地看這一間八十八里八百,還不是數字?中央要怎麼幫你處理啊?還是好知道呢,當我熱情地做起床的時候,0206那四十三億的成款,冬季時要去做土壤移化,我就把它凍起來,大約存二十八億。"},{"start":29016.617,"end":29020.741,"text":"風太開開,還有十方月多,一百個可以贏的,不是真淒慘的結果我財民跟我說,哎唷,兩家夭壽咯,那兩間議長說你們倆有夠無損的,都沒有衛生紙還能贏啊叫我把這支衣服衛生紙趕快帶給你先贏啊"},{"start":29036.493,"end":29042.117,"text":"他說你比他們更慘 我說沒有啊 你們每天都這麼慘他說沒有啊 鄉親比我們更慘說記者要來採訪 要扁桑 要自己找衛生紙還要我掛一句話說什麼拜託 你拜託道義還有另外一車 送給監察員 說監察員沒有衛生紙就要跟委員講 要送給監察員對啊 對啊 對啊所以 財民都有看"},{"start":29063.803,"end":29081.291,"text":"所以我說你剛才的演講表現不錯你剛才打起來我是對於衝刺機台嘛搞不好我也是衝刺機台的早期東華運動就是說衝突 特約有一些進步但是你這次來衝突 衝突 再衝突"},{"start":29093.516,"end":29104.407,"text":"當然你若要說,哇這無所不知啦我是歎息跟你錄啦,因為我對你一向很尊敬啦一百四十年,咱國的武聖齁,是,你不用看那些了,那些小子跟你講"},{"start":29116.8,"end":29135.575,"text":"一百四十年就對了,我們國有算是一條七千七百六十幾億一百五年是一條八千兩百二十四億一百六十年是一條八千四百十億,這是臨轉做議長的時候到我們現在這樣做議長,是一條九千六百六十九億"},{"start":29144.056,"end":29148.558,"text":"到所預料來講是2條空776億所預料做到181年單件年預料來講2條6千891億到度預料在去年來是2條8千589億今年有算起來有差不多2條9千986億差不多中間3條"},{"start":29171.767,"end":29178.449,"text":"他在挨被叫,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法你在這大中間,給我打電話給我蘇英中?沒有嘛你跟青島老總統在說,你是不是肥民的中間,跟我說,總統啊"},{"start":29194.312,"end":29203.981,"text":"啊你以前一條高清軌道是怎麼做的,你靠我做這樣,做得不錯餒你常常說你做行政移動做得不錯餒一條高清軌道餒現在搞了你兩條高清軌道,你說沒辦法做這點我是覺得說,你不是沒辦法做因為你總要靜地化了這個這樣可笑了我過去對你的淫脈,不是這樣"},{"start":29222.045,"end":29230.087,"text":"所以 很多人在跟我說 法令就被簽了 我說沒意義啦來到國會的電燈 大家又要喝水燒噴不是改革活動的方式啦我記一下的例子給你看當我們普京來做美國總統的時候 現在有二十個在我們統國五省的時候他這樣堆堆在國會 國會的中間"},{"start":29253.744,"end":29265.007,"text":"馬斯克這樣把他查了,他再拜託人家把自己政府裡面的巫生不懂的、浪費的、消謀的,隆重把他抓起來這樣刪差不多兩條的美金,送進來過去,老總統在做市長的時候,你問單叔叔,說得對我在俄羅斯公寓,災情的紀錄不錯"},{"start":29283.402,"end":29292.766,"text":"現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣"},{"start":29312.483,"end":29322.629,"text":"他說一戶戶要給他發五千塊美金五千塊美金五千塊美金五千塊美金多少台幣十六萬十六萬我最近認識這個美國朋友我感覺他越來越有魄力我在新加坡也有一個朋友姓吳叫做吳孫宅"},{"start":29342.358,"end":29346.719,"text":"嘿嘿 新加坡人一個人要發兩萬澳門稅金撤銷 17人來每一個澳門的國民發四萬的代表所以國民黨的提案 今年撤銷差不多五千三百億"},{"start":29367.638,"end":29394.969,"text":"2年2年2年2年3年呢 隆重啊 銷售的稅金出的來時要有1票 空600 60億所以在你的手裡呢 能應用到很多啦 應該找到好好的資料去探討一下我們台出 反水移民 台灣台出市到巴黎河 一人大小漢堡輪都而已一萬"},{"start":29399.011,"end":29410.454,"text":"這樣就要兩千三百四十億這是合情合理的但是我知道你們不可能讓我這麼好睡那你國民黨拿一萬你可能會加萬億萬五啦我落關幾成啊錢又貪得有了改欠就欠改開就開讓人民有一點幸福感有時候要扭轉利"},{"start":29425.342,"end":29430.685,"text":"會去死,我待會會再跟你說你現在的願意度到哪裡,到副成員頭到尾,整座庭,我們的臨環政策,很快都破亂你補台台,我聽不下去有什麼,說補一千億,他就不會把我們去掉,你胡說八道的"},{"start":29447.073,"end":29472.094,"text":"他給我們補三倍一千億 給我們企業企四倍他都說有風波啊 他在做風吹發電啊你給他補一千億也沒意義啦 一千億補他 沒補他 現在還要給他企業企各位 我們的民生喔 要結合差不多一百塊至一百二塊沒有關係啦 你就給人民一人給發一萬啦"},{"start":29475.678,"end":29500.618,"text":"他們的立定是過頭過臉啦報紙貸款,一筆賭最盡責心、公斷我最高潔這就是靈丸政策的不懂無心不作啦公主公有說嗎無約束、無減銷禮約束這不得減銷禮這代數不行吃雞都沒辦法嘛"},{"start":29505.626,"end":29532.587,"text":"但是這不是你的精神啊你人吃不來 你想要扭轉也再十個月來 沒看到啊沒看到你扭轉天坤的效力 因為什麼?你點門在中央屋道這最可笑在這裡啦用什麼精神 大家來講大家來想想 沒有那個做不高的"},{"start":29534.733,"end":29545.419,"text":"你如果做不到了 回去問蘇貞昌 問賴清德 問鄧建銀看是怎麼做 你家的過去可以做我倒行逮 現在沒辦法人家做我現在來跟你說這個打雜 你現在剛才在看齁跟人家看得這麼辛苦我可以講幾件就好嗎 跟你報告幾件事你剛才在說雨傘 今年雨傘差不多三條嘛有年假淡泊嘛 是啊是啊有時候我沒辦法做"},{"start":29564.069,"end":29591.883,"text":"你知不知道這三條裡面有兩千八百六十六項是幾年沒的這新增事項我告訴你喔新增也好啦 估計也好啦叫做協商啦你說這麼多拜你都沒聽到啊兩千八百零六頁新增事項這個新增事項如果把它補掉因為宗教在這裡也跟你們說啊有自愛難行 冠軍上來奔回"},{"start":29592.685,"end":29594.75,"text":"你現在總統 也不會說話我在復會之前就說了總統也不會說話沒關係來說一句啦"},{"start":29601.976,"end":29607.481,"text":"所以很牽連 我說新政事項2800年你不應該用這種國會心情去騙百姓我沒騙你下鄉我也下鄉啦你下鄉我也下鄉你下鄉我也下鄉"},{"start":29624.701,"end":29636.108,"text":"不會說會人 不會在說地方不是你講你的 我講我的不是這樣 聖誕節 國會我們得罪就是事實但是你不來講不來講 你為什麼要擁護水龍和水盆不行啦有要來講 不要來講 好啦好啦韓院長請入座我告訴你 你也是我的詐騙的電話嗎"},{"start":29656.581,"end":29667.972,"text":"你都沒在接電話,我打給你你也沒在接我打給你變詐騙電話我打給你變詐騙電話我叫是詐騙電話所以我沒在接啦我不顯示號碼就對了,好來你覺得NCC有來嗎?你來,這二、三個可能沒什麼了解,但是很需要"},{"start":29682.676,"end":29711.008,"text":"有MC就是說,當機時NCC是很好,要讓電話的公司業務開墾更好你聽到沒有?這是電信主義法的時候會宣佈的所以當機時有這個阿台電信跟台灣之星電信公司結果因為他們大哥大不釋放但是現在我們所有的"},{"start":29712.59,"end":29719.613,"text":"衍慶公司都有事化 有大割大你覺得你當時開放這個業務就對了 告訴我我們家有一個電話 事化我要打出來 我打給卓院長 我給你顯示賴清德的來電號嘛顯示賴清德的大割大 可以嗎 不可以可以 不可以"},{"start":29734.397,"end":29757.915,"text":"跟委員報告,那我們的號碼,就是互聯辦法裡頭有規定必須要有透通性,必須要撥的號碼跟售貨方的號碼必須要一致那如果他是選擇兩段式的撥接的方式的話那是有存在一些灰色地帶你看,認得嗎?炸片這麼多,可以做得到嗎?這樣太過量要死"},{"start":29760.953,"end":29767.136,"text":"我告訴你現在電話卡出就對了,不然我靠你的孫子,我顯示你太太的電話合併你知不知道?你對,我驚訝不?"},{"start":29782.093,"end":29793,"text":"我用集團,而且他為什麼?跟我一樣,我這支電話喔我今天卡,你知道的照片嗎?我明明知道可以改造韓國瑜的電話號碼顯示,來電顯示,但是我是用這支電話卡的他只要每天申請,每天申請報,檢查官,檢證書,書店有來嗎?內政部長"},{"start":29809.753,"end":29829.533,"text":"你要去查?要去查就怎樣?我電訊就叫你來公文啦!要現金啦!一筆來賺錢就賺錢啦!民間的還會賠還不民間的?我問你要查這筆?這筆半年金我就跟主要給你咧!社群網路電話部分我們現在正在處理,下個月大概就會有一些網組跟語音警示"},{"start":29834.986,"end":29848.233,"text":"主委你怎麼不說話我先喝 詐騙的手段詐騙的手段一直在講詞啦 我要跟著上訴肚子這麼嚴重 是是是我告訴你 這真是所有現時出來詐騙的靠你的電話都假的 你看到的訊息都假的一般我們家用電話 我們不吃肉啦你也不吃 我也不吃肉 你聽到嗎 除非我們家的電話啦"},{"start":29861.482,"end":29864.164,"text":"所以他現在說你敢顯示是大誇大的辯護大小人就叫我騙他你看我們的詐騙的看多少就好了所以我不是在跟你借錢,我是在說要怎麼面對,對症下藥啊吃到藥,吃草吃一條啦吃不到藥,你零三就吃一條啦,你聽到沒有所以"},{"start":29886.311,"end":29908.747,"text":"這個就是說 電信你怎麼給他整個叫電信自由法單純電話的這回合專修你這樣就不可以 整個這件事不都修修起來 不有意義啦這段 保釋到那個詐騙集團警察官跟警察查查查 查到這個電話的來頭查到了 後來是上車 他再給你換一支電話"},{"start":29913.732,"end":29927.338,"text":"又換一支電話 兩天可以換一半你不知道啦你你不知道啦 你不提供給我你不提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我"},{"start":29939.04,"end":29939.841,"text":"現在進行是了現在進行是了"},{"start":29968.567,"end":29981.003,"text":"你有沒有覺得是各位我要求我們所有的部委,有關的部委馬上提出一個,因為這個看起來這個行為,來看我們是既然了解他的行為,我們就要想出對策"},{"start":29982.95,"end":29999.204,"text":"我們已經提出對峙了我現在是跟你說這各位啦 我的意思是說 你們如果真的好玩等這各位今天全國的人民都聽到這種情報 他們都有每天收到這個詐騙的電話啦你看 他的內心是多痛 你知道嗎 本來政府是可以作動的啦我不敢說大街上沒有詐騙啦喔 但是一定有好的工作 我們要做啦好 再來喔"},{"start":30013.049,"end":30030.819,"text":"這點就是我要說的留學生的問題很可憐,我們自己賣,人還是法國的孩子才會不要這樣一百零二年內,我們境外的學生差不多三四萬人,你知道嗎?同期是2013年高中生的,來我們這裡讀高中的,九百三十六個"},{"start":30041.377,"end":30055.906,"text":"九百三十六個,一百零二年的時期,在鄉下北上,下面那些樸瀉的那些就是高中生啊,這上面這是大專生啊,所以大專生是正常的行動嘛,你看下面這樸瀉的高中生,一百零二年是九百三十六個,一百三十年耶,"},{"start":30063.906,"end":30072.269,"text":"變成境外的大學生,學生當中是九萬一千的但是高中生,對九百三十六個變一萬三千的高中生來我們台灣留學的這支,在天下十幾你不知道看的這批報告很清楚這叫做血汗跟血汗鑽石一樣"},{"start":30093.348,"end":30111.321,"text":"他就去做工 他不是來託車麻不吃麻不吃 吃吃不喝麻建交合作他去台北跟山東那些核心說這三十幾間行都佔了六島的 台灣一流的裡面有人來台灣託過車我們以前的託車是不是很多 矯正有人來台灣託過車說 這裡的核心我比較不會聽過不會聽過"},{"start":30121.26,"end":30126.582,"text":"打起來大開始都要退場的結果讓這核心裡面來的建教合作那一種教學合作就從工廠去好聽說去實施我跟妳說我三十幾年前在做工廠外銷我有一些工作在法務部的感覺在做"},{"start":30147.899,"end":30148.58,"text":"我不是要問他啦"},{"start":30163.131,"end":30181.398,"text":"因為這過程 因為你剛提到的這部分我讓你們注意一下因為那篇報導事實上是一個偽專題我敢在這邊解說 因為有三個大錯誤第一個數字引用錯誤來啦 你聽我說我們沒有講的話 三個字改差所以委員我沒有用你的陳證欸 主委 我沒有用你的話啦我不是在哭你哄你 你跟他們說什麼他們說什麼啦不是 這些學生是很認真來學習的啦"},{"start":30192.759,"end":30210.566,"text":"不要給他貼標籤啦你看 啊 如果是這樣 不然我們還不知道在工廠查什麼啊委員我們都有去看 我們都開始去 各個企業去看你們去看都漂亮啦 委員你也可以去企業看嘛你們去看都難免啦 因為我是媳婦出來的啦我是要跟你說 奉旨給美國這個領款 我們簽的領款都公約了"},{"start":30220.472,"end":30231.842,"text":"尤其這裏面有卡在二聖殿我們真正是靈魂的問題,所以集體不準,靈魂的問題你這樣責罪了真好,我這個處理我要讓他知道?當然我...甲親姐,我不在乎,我不跟你說你怎麼樣對不對"},{"start":30240.595,"end":30250.53,"text":"因為他們說這個問題最主要是社會的關注如果跟他有主觀、有關、尤其沒有,請你出來說明你去查清楚,我們再來對話嘛我們就查過了"},{"start":30253.928,"end":30271.938,"text":"是真假真假,但是真假不是壞事查國外申啦讓他好好,我可以修律,工場有工人請,好事啦,好事查國外申對我們的勞力很高,政績很好,我給你額熱一下這都是多贏啊,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下"},{"start":30281.687,"end":30287.349,"text":"協委員的鼓勵,我們會持續的團隊努力補充加油補充加油民進黨裡面最近這個網絡負聲量你是算筆數,你是第二名算筆論,你又抄襪寡見名"},{"start":30309.687,"end":30337.559,"text":"你說變第一名,所以這就是我對你不甘的所在你的過去不是這樣的人啊,政治人物以我齁你再選過第一名的曹新成齁你看,他才69.98%而已結果你73.87%我現在想你探討的就是說政策跟施政,到底你是有什麼正義的你落在你所安排到政策的推動"},{"start":30340.029,"end":30352.577,"text":"你有沒有感覺,你不是只挑戰在野動民,你還在挑戰人民挑戰人民的底線讓它失敗,一直在在地上,三二四,四二五我們台灣,坦白說,教育的普及,大家對民主的作用都很侵犯差不多我們每一個人身上都有民主的DNA"},{"start":30366.138,"end":30388.39,"text":"但是你卡不住就避暗無啊,你都替中國講話,你都同費啊,有的沒的這個主人,你是不要對我講啦,但是最好保我所謂的保肥手段啦,也能在我身上固定啦你去等他問多少天,看他對我這樣講的時候,我什麼反應?人齁,政敵利益,可以增,就像郡主愛宅出一幼的一樣"},{"start":30395.513,"end":30423.945,"text":"聖地里的靈科特長處 無法求中求堅強 規矩 無法等所以你並不是說有做什麼不對啊所以變成你贏這麼多人才 但事情沒兩點出來你給北省誤會說 啊他都沒人才所以出來跟人才那些都好處相憑我告訴你也不是 這些都人才啊像這個郭新聞 我帶來的啊"},{"start":30426.315,"end":30435.321,"text":"像中聯營的營長 像這主委這種做不熟的啊 我跟你說的事情這個電視都沒有了 這種全開了還有一個不認識的但是所有你這條線上的煙霧裡這個認識的所作的事情沒有辦法突顯出來就變成沒有辦法突顯到你倒下去的情節"},{"start":30454.569,"end":30473.124,"text":"出來的時候都變負評了整個都想的啊這樣不是對你來說不公平 又做不得我可以很虛心來接受所有的批評但是你看那個運動部長爭議後面現在鄭士忠 那就假的事情了鬧那個爭議鬧那個爭議鬧那個爭議運動部長爭議鄭士忠鬧那個爭議來"},{"start":30484.079,"end":30506.166,"text":"我告訴你 能源政策失能 我們現在能源政策穩定的找多元綠能欸 阿哥這段我給你解說 能源政策你解說了怎麼回事只要一點啦 就是說 如果只要 柏惟委員的意見就是說我如果把河山廠賣給園藝就不會失能不是這樣 我告訴你 我為什麼剛才跟你說吃緊都不會破碗 當然是"},{"start":30509.5,"end":30535.126,"text":"國民黨主席說 以和養力我們都需要綠能 但是我們知道綠能起來不夠快速啊所以 維新婦人繼續在全世界婦人店舖四十年後期都會延長二十年偏偏啊 整棟圍著二公二五年會婦人的家屬這個新珠牌啊 我當然不期待你去突破但是"},{"start":30536.926,"end":30542.317,"text":"李鴻麗已經回臨過去了我幾年就跟你說了嘛過去了 你們已經達成宿命了現在就可以叫經濟部 叫他們去研究"},{"start":30548.479,"end":30565.293,"text":"免費加費 請你就可以選擇我告訴你 婦嬰婦女婦嬰 你要知道的原因有多嚴重因為現在是暫停 要保存五年所以那都沒問題在Token 基礎安全的狀況下"},{"start":30566.974,"end":30573.963,"text":"我們希望可以快速恢復這12%的用電 這樣對你未來的市場 越好投資 那時候你就益虧重點了我現在新的想法 減碳先行 目標淨零"},{"start":30585.063,"end":30601.887,"text":"我告訴你 你的金銀碳牌做不夠 為什麼?因為北企北當 所有的整碳都空洞嘛所以我們現在看到澳銀所有的規定 我們都不停不急啦但是你開始在做啦包括這個彭啟民 開市 有一個好的開市 OK跟你講話 雖然現在沒有選擇"},{"start":30612.29,"end":30639.293,"text":"但是這次是好的開始面對世界的凋流那麼世界的凋流就是希望恢復福林美國 日本 澳洲 隆重開啟認真福林電廠的項手希望你們的年可以聽到你開啟福林永電的好聲音好消息就是能夠認真和平 你就贊成我 對不對"},{"start":30640.918,"end":30653.966,"text":"你開口沒人安傳我還要贊成呢安傳我是沒贊成的這個命題是有問題的嘛我虛心接受,繼續努力,謝謝委員好,謝謝謝榮介委員的質詢,謝謝主委院長各部會所長的對詢接下來接下來我們等謝榮介委員把這些帶來的班總,我們再繼續質詢"},{"start":30689.693,"end":30694.216,"text":"好 謝謝醫事處 辛苦接下來我們請登記第42位 沈伯陽委員請質詢"},{"start":30708.5,"end":30709.18,"text":"謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩在請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30748.503,"end":30769.012,"text":"因為上個禮拜賴總統有記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的國家安全現在要守衛所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰作為一個名稱但是因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的"},{"start":30769.472,"end":30787.532,"text":"所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第十五還第十六點關於這一個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要離與離境所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障"},{"start":30788.132,"end":30812.697,"text":"那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片"},{"start":30813.317,"end":30835.533,"text":"那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請"},{"start":30836.684,"end":30863.559,"text":"辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為我們有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads"},{"start":30864.039,"end":30878.775,"text":"他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流"},{"start":30879.514,"end":30903.381,"text":"也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦"},{"start":30904.4,"end":30928.291,"text":"所以在這邊呢 這都是這陣子的新聞 這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套我記得是逮捕了三個人左右然後呢 這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套"},{"start":30928.971,"end":30954.15,"text":"所以這件事情呢我在這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛比特大陸嘛他背後有華為嘛"},{"start":30955.131,"end":30984.297,"text":"那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條"},{"start":30985.077,"end":31012.907,"text":"都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行"},{"start":31015.872,"end":31031.783,"text":"現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本"},{"start":31032.783,"end":31049.352,"text":"絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例"},{"start":31053.694,"end":31070.359,"text":"那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不"},{"start":31071.215,"end":31086.487,"text":"很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益"},{"start":31089.738,"end":31105.073,"text":"因為部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色"},{"start":31105.794,"end":31129.605,"text":"那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整"},{"start":31130.245,"end":31153.118,"text":"第二個他提到國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國"},{"start":31153.758,"end":31172.613,"text":"我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是說最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條"},{"start":31174.835,"end":31190.877,"text":"大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例"},{"start":31191.417,"end":31209.492,"text":"所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正"},{"start":31210.112,"end":31220.488,"text":"這一個部分的是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行"},{"start":31222.25,"end":31248.193,"text":"所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手"},{"start":31249.981,"end":31274.181,"text":"謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例他就是有一個主責的一個單位他是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全"},{"start":31274.821,"end":31287.562,"text":"因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題又產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個"},{"start":31288.277,"end":31313.282,"text":"再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會 剛剛這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個頭審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的寫作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資甲界那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題"},{"start":31314.222,"end":31337.826,"text":"因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來就國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢"},{"start":31338.326,"end":31354.606,"text":"到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能"},{"start":31355.2,"end":31372.864,"text":"又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題"},{"start":31375.865,"end":31402.298,"text":"要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好"},{"start":31405.279,"end":31420.016,"text":"那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼"},{"start":31420.683,"end":31435.374,"text":"由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強"},{"start":31436.898,"end":31462.795,"text":"經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的"},{"start":31463.215,"end":31490.878,"text":"就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣"},{"start":31492.612,"end":31513.987,"text":"法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐所以呢在這件事情上面對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨"},{"start":31514.787,"end":31540.956,"text":"但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java script所以這個 script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去我會擔心啦 看到這個如果你這個講那個 script"},{"start":31542.496,"end":31555.624,"text":"對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼"},{"start":31556.528,"end":31580.161,"text":"結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法"},{"start":31580.984,"end":31594.782,"text":"那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎"},{"start":31595.882,"end":31615.452,"text":"那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消機會它也是民間團體但是它也是我們政府認可的團體它也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商它完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管理"},{"start":31616.343,"end":31638.604,"text":"所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但有沒有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府"},{"start":31640.093,"end":31647.939,"text":"民間的這些東西 我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個"},{"start":31672.936,"end":31675.258,"text":"好,謝謝陳柏安委員質疑,謝謝主委院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝"},{"start":31677.58,"end":31702,"text":"接下來我們請登記第43位張志倫委員請質詢院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":31711.537,"end":31737.807,"text":"院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億"},{"start":31741.069,"end":31746.137,"text":"114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億"},{"start":31753.587,"end":31771.502,"text":"所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算"},{"start":31772.523,"end":31796.704,"text":"我們今年可以看到萬物皆長人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告"},{"start":31799.045,"end":31823.316,"text":"所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了長假總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務員員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%"},{"start":31827.472,"end":31852.487,"text":"要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西"},{"start":31854.448,"end":31874.958,"text":"過去有都可以買了很多 收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高"},{"start":31876.035,"end":31887.219,"text":"我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對"},{"start":31900.163,"end":31920.333,"text":"只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS"},{"start":31921.26,"end":31933.647,"text":"短程的固定的這些乘客用TBUS對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們TBUS又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的"},{"start":31936.648,"end":31954.997,"text":"可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%"},{"start":31956.858,"end":31985.145,"text":"所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為它就是應該緩緩的漲可是調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好"},{"start":31986.025,"end":32010.271,"text":"第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎"},{"start":32012.464,"end":32040.374,"text":"呃 院長院長說全市開票反映成本的話你一直漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊那已經不是在全額反映成本了報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵啦也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾%所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾反映你意思是說人民在台鐵票價漲20幾%人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得"},{"start":32041.755,"end":32046.617,"text":"那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎"},{"start":32047.461,"end":32071.475,"text":"沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好,請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範,好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了他的成本不斷在成長,他的服務也必須要成長在他的員工的薪水變化成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就"},{"start":32074.577,"end":32094.693,"text":"不會有感覺 然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊 他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有過程 台鐵它的成本不一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來 你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣 好 沒有 你有解釋我就可以了好 那我們看下一頁"},{"start":32097.856,"end":32121.358,"text":"所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加"},{"start":32122.6,"end":32135.876,"text":"類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當"},{"start":32137.495,"end":32165.237,"text":"這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是"},{"start":32166.308,"end":32194.06,"text":"我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動其實沒有我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動可是委員你來現場應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話"},{"start":32195.06,"end":32220.688,"text":"我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供的照片請院長深思第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題"},{"start":32222.068,"end":32245.313,"text":"我就說因為我在這裡講委員有些聽不懂到那邊講民群眾人民都聽得懂好可是我要跟院長報告的是這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好那接下來我們必須要講"},{"start":32247.189,"end":32263.815,"text":"這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了"},{"start":32264.975,"end":32269.1,"text":"在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了"},{"start":32282.836,"end":32305.148,"text":"每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候"},{"start":32309.107,"end":32319.436,"text":"台電的發電燃煤的發電成本是3.4他基本上來講他都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電他在112點的時候是加20%就是意思就是說他多給了民營電廠20%的獲利"},{"start":32326.642,"end":32347.502,"text":"結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%"},{"start":32350.137,"end":32359.618,"text":"這意思是什麼呢當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去"},{"start":32361.138,"end":32383.04,"text":"依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請請報告委員我想這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容"},{"start":32385.362,"end":32414.082,"text":"合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討"},{"start":32415.403,"end":32443.243,"text":"所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低"},{"start":32444.056,"end":32470.943,"text":"可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費所以說就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是"},{"start":32472.165,"end":32496.899,"text":"我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電"},{"start":32497.839,"end":32509.686,"text":"有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及"},{"start":32510.663,"end":32538.365,"text":"未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者當他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電毀了就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長"},{"start":32541.311,"end":32570.456,"text":"最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的"},{"start":32571.482,"end":32598.549,"text":"我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買"},{"start":32599.289,"end":32612.076,"text":"它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台北的經濟對 現在的意思是過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊"},{"start":32614.597,"end":32634.506,"text":"只有現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上市會公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成"},{"start":32637.697,"end":32655.562,"text":"這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示它是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年"},{"start":32657.222,"end":32676.224,"text":"那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能要請教一下那這樣可能在法案之下他可以違約不可能所以原來是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他"},{"start":32677.79,"end":32699.66,"text":"他一定會處分他可是處分他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰效的委員會主他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法"},{"start":32700.14,"end":32722.799,"text":"好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出Guts就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損"},{"start":32724.761,"end":32731.798,"text":"不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了"},{"start":32734.941,"end":32757.987,"text":"所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源"},{"start":32759.467,"end":32787.412,"text":"在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告委員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億"},{"start":32788.874,"end":32794.943,"text":"所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉"},{"start":32804.4,"end":32831.214,"text":"如果你們有提出更好譬如說可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔"},{"start":32832.435,"end":32861.773,"text":"只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑的同意因為我們的一千億是在"},{"start":32862.433,"end":32890.803,"text":"消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好我們就接下來講那接下來希望說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告那我們下一位"},{"start":32892.742,"end":32920.358,"text":"好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個"},{"start":32921.078,"end":32939.1,"text":"太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":32939.58,"end":32953.656,"text":"可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是在我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是"},{"start":32954.577,"end":32979.033,"text":"太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EPA的這個膜它黏的很緊沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或"},{"start":32980.194,"end":33006.989,"text":"可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成台灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎"},{"start":33008.49,"end":33026.315,"text":"報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術"},{"start":33031.052,"end":33051.512,"text":"好,謝謝部長,部長為了了解這個中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些這個授權給相關的民間業者,可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品,就我得知是完全沒有。"},{"start":33052.273,"end":33062.681,"text":"而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原也有在做如果沒有辦法生產"},{"start":33064.195,"end":33089.564,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途"},{"start":33089.924,"end":33112.739,"text":"但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大"},{"start":33114.38,"end":33141.898,"text":"好謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力你們也知道也補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁"},{"start":33144.411,"end":33158.3,"text":"太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者"},{"start":33161.602,"end":33183.414,"text":"那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去積合可是沒有想到這個環境部的積合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的積合只是做一般就是做一個制式化的積合所以我們來看一下下兩頁拜託"},{"start":33186.055,"end":33202.689,"text":"左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板只有環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況"},{"start":33205.231,"end":33216.781,"text":"就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後他其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉"},{"start":33217.93,"end":33239.612,"text":"那這些是一些沒有拿到補助的業者有拿到補助的業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游的業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受的資料所以這就是我要跟"},{"start":33241.089,"end":33252.599,"text":"部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者"},{"start":33255.529,"end":33279.274,"text":"私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以好謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲"},{"start":33280.194,"end":33308.973,"text":"所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面"},{"start":33310.214,"end":33333.806,"text":"報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期"},{"start":33334.546,"end":33352.542,"text":"很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個葉片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的"},{"start":33352.962,"end":33382.331,"text":"好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠燃者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們現在的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策"},{"start":33382.799,"end":33398.519,"text":"接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長"},{"start":33399.839,"end":33421.708,"text":"3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億"},{"start":33426.567,"end":33440.715,"text":"所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法"},{"start":33442.358,"end":33465.186,"text":"我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實嘛那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有"},{"start":33466.26,"end":33469.722,"text":"沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關"},{"start":33491.115,"end":33518.376,"text":"一定會把關謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年外操了那我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎"},{"start":33519.056,"end":33539.006,"text":"政府跟所有的產業都會保持最好好 謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢也謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來最後一位登記發言第44位陳雪生委員請諮詢"},{"start":33548.404,"end":33555.167,"text":"謝謝主席是不是秦院長?周院長?謝謝麻煩再請周院長備選院長辛苦了站了一天了,馬上下課了今天本席質詢四個感謝一個抱怨我想感謝先來好了感謝國防部"},{"start":33578.803,"end":33600.534,"text":"國防部從善如流這個接受本席的建議對馬祖地區的東營指揮部還有舉光指揮部那麼在113年6月27號核定修正國軍地域加級也就是由原來的第三級那麼調整為第二級東營跟舉光"},{"start":33606.516,"end":33626.424,"text":"我們韓院長也在舉光當過副院長沒水沒電非常的辛苦那麼顧部長這邊從善如流謝謝您把他調整那現在問題來了亮島跟高登亮島院長沒去過我不曉得顧部長去過沒有我去過一個亮島有沒有去過"},{"start":33635.191,"end":33662.908,"text":"亮島跟高登,高登在北竿旁邊距離大陸是最近的一個地區高登大概也只有幾十個人亮島也只有幾十個官兵大概兩個島不足一百個那麼在亮島尤其辛苦我當縣長的時候每次陪同我們地區的指揮官去做軍務視察的時候他去視察我去慰問"},{"start":33663.769,"end":33692.631,"text":"我一定到肉舖砍兩個豬腳豬腿豬腿送到那邊去他們沒有他們都是吃罐頭沒有肉吃魚的話也要靠運補上去釀島那邊大概一兩個禮拜才運補一次那裡沒有因為土質都是鹽盤沒有土質所以他們都是用那個寶特瓶空心菜放在裡面種植一層一層的"},{"start":33693.8,"end":33722.205,"text":"他們吃的青菜是這樣因為普及的問題所以我在這邊建議是不是能夠把高登亮島由二級改為一級那麼三級改為二級大概是差距是兩千兩百一十塊兩千兩百一十塊那麼亮島跟高登只有幾十個人幾十個人是不是可以把它調整從二級調整到一級這裡面差八千塊目前"},{"start":33722.898,"end":33745.546,"text":"亮島跟高登的這個冰原人家都不願意去了如果您的小孩在那邊當兵的話你會體諒到沒水沒電沒有水也沒有電非常的辛苦幾十個人過去在戰時的時候我一級48年823砲戰十週年老共要做報復"},{"start":33750.219,"end":33771.662,"text":"我們在民國58年的時候我們全島16歲以上的婦女年輕人不可以離境而且槍彈全部都到位所以非常非常的辛苦我們面對對面一整塊的山群非常的恐懼"},{"start":33772.694,"end":33791.568,"text":"我們平常都要躲炮彈,每天晚上都要躲這個炮彈所以那時候內心的恐懼,所以我們一直怕戰爭的爆發所以現在兵兇戰為,我想左院長這邊也跟賴總統報告我們不要戰爭,我們希望和平"},{"start":33793.495,"end":33817.129,"text":"剛剛聽委員談到您對外島的國軍官兵送了一些食物過去我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝我們就是要防衛我們自己,我們走向和平之道才會表示說我們應該加強自己的防衛能力我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣好不好"},{"start":33825.93,"end":33836.525,"text":"現在一級只有南沙,我們評估的結果認為高登跟亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異"},{"start":33837.136,"end":33864.773,"text":"只是交通差異,問題是阿兵哥到那邊去,不能回來啊高層跟亮島之間的交通的狀況跟南沙比起來,南沙還是艱困許多他們那邊已經比南沙少很多南沙還可以發電種菜,在亮島是沒有的請部長回去查一下好不好我想只有幾十個吧,只有幾十位的官兵啊這個是不是請部長回去"},{"start":33865.393,"end":33894.829,"text":"演繹好不好,我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣啦我是拜託部長第二件事情就是感謝,第二個感謝就是北竿長崎拔長它原來是350公尺長那麼希望它現在已經變更為75公尺那麼原來馬防部啊,馬總防衛部咧演繹啊演繹說要5億,第一個方案要5億第二個方案要9億其實不需要嘛"},{"start":33895.222,"end":33924.449,"text":"在北甘島上面不過五百多個兵員你不用回答我多少啦我大概心裡有數五百個兵員長訓的時間不多啊不需要那麼大的一個靶場其實一兩年之內啊他們現在是答應我們說五年之內完成簽件因為他這個在淡黃的地區啊而且聘您了國中國小縣立醫院安養中心我們運動場所以部長這一方面拜託您"},{"start":33926.173,"end":33942.374,"text":"兩千萬足夠了現在用步槍的機會很少我想在馬祖我在那邊住了幾十年應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點用不到步槍但是步槍必須我們是一個常備的項目"},{"start":33943.444,"end":33964.978,"text":"所以部長這一方面希望國防部回去五年之內簽件這個允諾你要實現而且拜託不要那麼大的靶場靶場就是打個靶嘛是不是75公尺而已我也會打我們也常常我們在那邊常常接受民防隊訓練每年也是一年打好幾次啊部長你說好嗎"},{"start":33966.554,"end":33991.759,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這件事情因為委員長期關心我們現在一方面是調整這個涉及的週期我想這點你也知道每週五天就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五那時段就是八點半到七點半,兩點半到四點半本來今年的元旦,元月一號我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打院長說我要保重身體謝謝委員的體諒另外我們現在也做隔音牆"},{"start":33996.468,"end":34021.038,"text":"已經合撥了這個需求的預算金額所以我們會開標以後我們管制在90個工作天點內把它竣工以後就有效可以來防止噪音好,那繼續我第三個感謝馬祖飛高雄的航線部長你知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎?有900多位"},{"start":34022.591,"end":34050.303,"text":"900多位他們回家的路非常辛苦不是坐船就是坐飛機到松山機場還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄現在我們已經把這航線已經打開了當然我要感謝中油油罐車幫我們也弄了加油的部分交通部還有華航還有華信還有民航局大家都用了很大的心去做院長你有沒有聽說過"},{"start":34051.786,"end":34079.25,"text":"哪一家航空公司,我們花蓮也好,台中也好,台中也好,高雄也好,要縣政府補貼的,你們聽過?沒有縣政府補貼?交通部是有補貼的?我們縣政府要補貼,因為他人數不夠的話我們要補貼所以報告院長這一點拜託,還有部長來了我們固定航班時間以後,拜託不要縣政府補貼好不好?馬祖已經沒什麼錢了"},{"start":34080.444,"end":34102.225,"text":"即使這一次你看看這個財化法通過我一句話都沒講其實我們一般的補助款計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來我們幾億還不夠用還不夠分配是不是可能我們還倒貼所以對我們來講也不是好事所以我幾乎都沒有聲音我也沒表示意見院長部長在這邊"},{"start":34104.11,"end":34129.538,"text":"拜託一下不只是我們發展觀光的需求這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥官兵一個生活上的照顧兩位部長也都在能不能協力來完成那麼這個錢不要縣政府出請你們盡量去努力好不好一個月兩個月我們出得起太久的話長年下去的話縣政府你曉得我們財政分級是列第五第五級第六級"},{"start":34131.238,"end":34142.844,"text":"產生狀況非常的刺激非常的不好拜託院長可以嗎報告委員其實其他的航線也都有補貼你也都很清楚因為你也常時在關心這個議題"},{"start":34144.025,"end":34173.36,"text":"那高雄的這個部分我們還是要看他的整體的運量就是說現在華夏航空其實很擔心就是承載量不足他會虧很多所以他會希望有補貼但補貼的金額其實如果是承載量很少的話那個補貼金額還真的是會蠻大的部長其實啊台灣到馬祖這個航線我們國家本來就是有責任有這個義務行的電力嘛行的安全嘛對不對本來就有這個責任啊"},{"start":34174.281,"end":34201.251,"text":"你為什麼說高雄飛金門都可以飛,飛馬祖不能飛啦沒有道理嘛,飛澎湖也飛啦而且都大的飛機在飛我們現在小小的一個要求,小小的要求嘛所以拜託部長回去研究一下,看看有什麼經費什麼樣的法令,如果法令有問題我們可以修改嘛可以修正嘛,好不好讓縣政府能夠喘口氣還有就是這個票價前幾天已經開過會了"},{"start":34203.477,"end":34231.506,"text":"要報到交通部去核定這一點拜託部長回去看他公文馬上把它批了為什麼因為他票價公布以後華信還要排班排班裡面還請部長幫忙一下我據我了解華信很像要排禮拜二但禮拜二的航班因為要配合官兵休假我們除了發展官方這裡面主要還是阿兵哥阿兵哥回家日路更近所以希望在禮拜五"},{"start":34232.356,"end":34243.227,"text":"禮拜五的話他們禮拜六跟禮拜天他有多了兩天因為要精打細算他才有這樣的一個需求請部長能不能夠幫忙一下"},{"start":34243.912,"end":34267.522,"text":"報告委員這件事您也協調了好多次我們會盡量朝向委員的期望不過華信航空它整體的飛機的量能這個我們也需要考慮到因為也有其他的離島有這樣子的需求華信的董事長原來是華航的總經理他現在已經身處了是華航的董事長那麼他已經辭掉華信董事長的職務了"},{"start":34269.042,"end":34285.897,"text":"那麼現在華信董事長派了沒有我還不知道,派誰我也不知道我最好能夠派陳雪生的話那我最高興了這個問題不要你解決我就可以處理了但是現在董事長換了我真搞不清楚有沒有人跟華信新的董事長給他切磋一下好不好"},{"start":34287.025,"end":34308.633,"text":"你不要再笑啊不是,立委不能兼董事長我兼董事長?立委不能兼我不能兼,我辭掉啊你一定是一個稱職的立委不行啦,聽說罷免又要成功了,要罷免我欸,院長我24小時,數月匪懈為民服務,我助理請了20幾個"},{"start":34310.66,"end":34338.692,"text":"你不要看我們台中、桃園、台北,到處都是我們的鄉親我24小時為他們做便民的服務,徵取經費也是第一名的所以拜託你不要去談罷免的事情我沒有談罷免的事情拜託一下,因為說真的我對馬祖的鄉親非常熱愛我也熱愛這塊土地,剩下三年讓我做完好不好?這一點跟你懇切的拜託好不好?"},{"start":34340.798,"end":34364.611,"text":"這個很少人在那邊談這個事情我是第一個第三個就是有關,顧部長請回部長你請回這是衛福部的事情第四個感謝衛福部長上任以後當然他原來當立法委員在我的隔壁我跟他什麼事情,我們兩個如兄如弟"},{"start":34365.984,"end":34387.35,"text":"我跟他報告什麼事呢電腦斷層我們馬阿祖的緊急醫療後送大概一年有160位那後送過來以後有什麼問題呢電腦斷層醫生看不清楚上傳以後磨磨糊糊重新再造一次所以我們我要求他拜託他給我一個800"},{"start":34388.806,"end":34415.321,"text":"八百劑量的斷層後來他說我們部立院全部都是一百多切的不能單獨給你麻煩那我也OK不過他也核定了部長謝謝您雖然你沒有做到八百你當立委的時候答應我八百切但你做部長換了位子以後腦袋又換了不過我也不怪你因為全部大家一視同仁要公平那現在也很多民眾提出來說"},{"start":34416.973,"end":34439.958,"text":"縣立醫院能不能改部立醫院部立醫院的話要有部立醫院的規模、土地、醫生還有儀器、醫療設備等等我看需要幾十億啦當然以馬祖的規格目前金門厚重大概是兩百四十一個我們一年厚重,我們大概最近這三年啦最近這三年金門是兩百四十一個,我們是一百六十"},{"start":34441.67,"end":34455.91,"text":"所以說那邊基本上的一些配備像電腦斷層你給我了嘛這個問題民眾的問題解決了你不然那邊照一次這邊再照一次因為看不清楚嘛所以非常感謝我們衛福部長希望"},{"start":34456.857,"end":34483.775,"text":"有關部立醫院如果你不成立部立醫院的話起碼一些基本的配備需求神經內科神經外科還有我們腦袋現在心梗心臟心臟的問題也蠻多的後送過來心梗所以請部長能不能對這一方面再加強再注重一下,可不可以報告委員我幾件事情"},{"start":34484.665,"end":34507.191,"text":"我回答一下第一個就是說有關電腦斷層其實同步那個時期澎湖醫院也是設立了128間的電腦斷層其實它是再加上現在的AI的一個處理可以把影片處理到非常的清楚所以請委員放心以後我們那邊的醫師朋友所照的"},{"start":34508.559,"end":34529.617,"text":"回到台灣絕對不需要再重複照如果重複照我再找你嘛好不好而且這可以電腦的傳遞資訊所以這個部分沒有問題至於說在強調連江縣馬祖這個部分尤其在連江縣我們從幾個角度第一個人才的培育醫療器材的一個加強"},{"start":34531.906,"end":34556.4,"text":"還有整體的醫療費用的提升,其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力我想這個部分在幾戶方面也是給予家承家的30%不是啦,我們兩個人不談政治,我們是兄弟就跟周越南一樣,我們也是好朋友,也是跟兄弟如兄如弟一樣"},{"start":34557.381,"end":34583.935,"text":"我也敬佩對這個連江縣的縣民長期的關心我們一定不管我在過去或者是在現在因為那邊太多醫師的朋友了我們一樣希望他們有一個好的醫療環境來把我們的縣民照顧好謝謝部長好不好你請回謝謝院長那現在我要談到我的抱怨我要談到馬祖大俏"},{"start":34587.472,"end":34616.296,"text":"我還有應該算算不到三年的時間任期就要屆滿了我的年齡也應該差不多了這個馬祖大橋我每天都在關心這個事情從107年我們賴總統時任院長的時候我到行政院找他他馬上就把它批了中和規劃中和規劃他就批了批了以後交通部速度也很快"},{"start":34616.943,"end":34633.776,"text":"折騰公路總局馬上做計畫110年其中報告就出來了送到行政院110年送到行政院以後不停的行政院秘書處還有國發會交通部這個公文一直轉來轉去那個效率實在我非常驚人"},{"start":34644.249,"end":34657.859,"text":"抓了112年,一整年喔我不知道躺在誰的桌子上,我看不到也追蹤不到好112年不見了111年後來報到113年到國發會國發會說送到英商奧亞納工程顧問公司"},{"start":34673.697,"end":34702.773,"text":"做第三方的認證認證什麼呢認證技術有沒有問題認證技術有沒有問題那已經也回來了啊技術也沒問題啊我想賴總統時任院長的時候對我們馬祖大家有承諾他的攸關馬祖未來百年發展大街的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己的手中推動一定全力促成這是他第一次的承諾"},{"start":34703.717,"end":34716.864,"text":"然後賴總統也到縣地去會勘這個南北岸大橋大概3.1公里長他預計要8年完工賴總統也表示經費不是問題當然現在這個經費一直到288億我有一件事情我要拜託院長這個公文輾轉來輾轉去"},{"start":34733.919,"end":34762.621,"text":"那前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子我就非常震驚啊這麼重要的事情我在立法院每一年每一次都在總諮詢的時候向院長提出來爭取這個南北竿跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋但是院長說不知道沒看到公文"},{"start":34763.493,"end":34790.698,"text":"我非常的驚訝我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了這麼重要的事情賴總統親口答應的事情而且院長我也口頭跟你報告好幾次但你就看不到這公文所以這公文一直在國發會交通部一直在秘書長行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉我想我不曉得什麼時候才能看到院長讓您看到"},{"start":34791.55,"end":34812.607,"text":"我要親自拿去給你看嗎跟委員報告這個工程當然是複雜而且挑戰性很大經過國內國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估目前委員剛剛所說經費達到288億其實上他已經再度修正已經提高到392億金門機場評估的時候我們馬祖機場"},{"start":34819.989,"end":34836.187,"text":"剛剛評估的時候說要幾百億後來十幾億 十幾二十億我們馬祖南崗機場做起來啦所以你不要聽那個啦你要不想幫我做的話你說這個大橋啊 評估要兩千億因為他有南崗機場存廢的問題北崗機場要"},{"start":34840.034,"end":34859.125,"text":"修整建的問題,還有大橋的問題,整個合起來談我們還聽到有不同的聲音,主要是現在修正到392億所以我們必須要重新再修正392億誰修正的?是世西嗎?我不曉得是誰修正的?國發會有這樣的專家嗎?他沒有經過一個細部的設計,沒有經過建設計畫的啟動"},{"start":34866.001,"end":34887.627,"text":"他怎麼知道是那麼多億咧?所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的一個概算所以我希望他重新院內還在重新再也不是用含的,也不是用吹的一定要詳細精算部長,您知道是300多億嗎?你聽過嗎?這個部分我們要回去再了解一下"},{"start":34888.192,"end":34911.299,"text":"不是現在了解,這是你公路總局在精算的公路總局委託4C設計公司在弄的4C是我們國內頂尖的這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在漲委員長期一直關心這個做大橋所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展跟進度不是我是說院長你聽誰講的,誰跟你報告的"},{"start":34913.72,"end":34931.694,"text":"哪一個單位跟你報告呢?你回答我好不好,哪一個單位跟你報告呢?這個是在院內的公文我們綜合起來算,它一個概算之後要有人算嘛,總是要有人算啦1加1等於2,總要有人算出來嘛不是我,我們還在內部要求重新核定這個數字為什麼會從288億,會漲到390億我想這是馬祖仁未來的夢他這個跟機場一定要結合"},{"start":34943.4,"end":34972.382,"text":"欄杆機場要把它停掉欄杆機場的跑道頭端太危險了我每次坐飛機回去我家裡面試試過我每次飛機降落我都怕尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖你知道嗎很恐怖你不要造成人命理由再來檢討問題就為時已晚太慢了我希望我身為立法委員我身為馬拉圖的立法委員我一定要在中央來發聲拜託懇求院長回去"},{"start":34973.642,"end":35002.968,"text":"馬上把它進入建設計畫讓它去做細部設計讓細部設計出來因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了一億五千萬了已經花了一億五千萬了所以我剛剛有報告北竿機場的改善這工程的規劃南竿機場的存廢問題南竿機場一定要廢掉這個馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來這麼392億的這個預算我們要把它做一個"},{"start":35003.871,"end":35031.127,"text":"你看前院長,蘇貞昌院長,他錢不是問題賴清德院長,錢不是問題390而已就390而已嘛你桃園一個地鐵,從空中變成地下600億元你都花了,是不是?難道跟一張離島你不重視嗎?而且我們不是一次到位八年的時程,一年花三五十億,我其他的錢可以不要你這個財化法怎麼錢,我一毛錢都不要"},{"start":35031.892,"end":35059.719,"text":"拜託這個事情嘛,一年啊法律不是您要不要我們也可以說大家都不要,但是不行這樣說不要我不用也可以嘛,是不是我可以不用嗎?是不是我們已經陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方的財政的劃分的一個狀態裡面下那如果這個合訂了是300多億,那到底是中央還是地方我們不要爭一時啦,我們要爭千秋馬祖這個大橋啊,馬祖大橋"},{"start":35061.53,"end":35085.434,"text":"在朱院長手上批渴在賴總統手上核定我們會感謝你們的好不好我們馬祖真的你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎有跟你談政治的問題嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有有責難過行政院嗎也從來沒有好不好我想院長希望趕快進入建設計畫剛才我不停的質詢您就是說"},{"start":35086.383,"end":35115.872,"text":"你的消息從哪裡來的?你的數字是怎麼出來的?你講個五百億,講個一千億,你就把我砍臼了嘛,是不是?這樣是沒有道理,對我是不公平的啊你到底是誰算出來?如果世襲算出來,需要五百、一千億我給你下跪算啦我太口氣而已,是不是?但是不是這樣嘛你不聽國發會裡面的人,隨便算一下就出來了是不是?我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的?這個拜託院長好不好"},{"start":35116.577,"end":35131.034,"text":"讓他進入建設計畫讓他進入建設計畫我卸任的話我死也瞑目啊對不對,我陳宇人有努力過,我有衝刺過我不要讓人家講我陳宇人你在騙人人家說我在騙人啊,說我在騙人啊"},{"start":35131.69,"end":35144.783,"text":"是不是,我沒有騙我的民眾,我很努力在工作我覺得今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告,委員也可以跟鄉親說明那目前我們再重新檢討這個問題那個數字是虛無縹緲了嘛"},{"start":35147.386,"end":35162.913,"text":"是空中樓格誰算出來的委員我説明一下因為這個深度達到60米是全球也少見我知道你不是整個技術專家所以我們送到英國去以後然後重新的檢討也同時重新檢討你花500萬給英國算你找英國誰算"},{"start":35164.514,"end":35187.293,"text":"你給他付薪水都不夠啦他有到馬祖來過嗎有看過水深是多深嗎有看過我們的兇案我上次有跟委員報告過我們是建立在世新的這個規劃書上面的基礎因為他已經規劃得很完整我們只是去驗證這樣的一個深度國內沒有經驗然後看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗你進入建設計畫花不了多少錢啊 院長"},{"start":35188.43,"end":35198.539,"text":"後面有多少錢?你把建設計畫裡面細色、詳細弄出來,那才是叫數字啊你國發會有這樣的人才嗎?你海洋大學畢業,你就可以講說300億、500億、800億所以我們送到英國去,請英國的專家來寫證"},{"start":35210.55,"end":35226.444,"text":"英國人有講要400多億嗎?英國的專家至少他們比較有經驗,看得到國外的經驗,因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗世新也沒有這樣的經驗所以我們要再次的驗證,我們尊重世新的專業但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證國內的技術專家你不去聽"},{"start":35234.082,"end":35250.413,"text":"外國約量比較遠,我們只花了五百萬五百萬是什麼?五百萬在英國眼中是什麼?是不是OB是什麼錢你知道嗎?所以拜託院長,這個幫我們進入建設計畫我想行政院秘書長今天也會來"},{"start":35252.162,"end":35279.453,"text":"拜託一下好不好你送上去給院長看嘛送上去給總統批嘛好不好你不能在那邊跟我這樣子講包括我本人主委部長我們都有掌握這個狀況新的發展院長你也可以講說五百億啊一千億啊沒有沒有這絕對不是空口亂講你進國發會有沒有在那胡扯八道國發會有這樣的專家你把專家拿出來給我看誰啊這是透過專業的一個評估但是我就是從頭再來看這樣的評估到底準確如何"},{"start":35281.714,"end":35303.337,"text":"還有離島建設基金剩下8.86億我歷史跟陳玉珍委員還有楊耀維的資訊你們說隨時撥補問題你剩下8.86億你一年要花掉3億起碼吧你到現在怎麼辦很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了那離島基金就沒了嘛"},{"start":35304.909,"end":35329.129,"text":"委員我們現在是一年編列9頁的預算但是我們今年被砍掉了6%在大院你回去檢討一下,現在時間還剩下55秒小山通啊,拜託一下他們說團過來,我們又再阻止他團現在不來了馬祖街道冷冷清清啊真的所有旅館全部空蕩蕩的"},{"start":35330.356,"end":35357.908,"text":"民意部聊生所以請院長交通部有機會過去看一看陸委會這邊也謝謝我們邱主委很關心我們真的都給我們跟大陸盡量不要吵架了這樣弄下去我的心情被你們搞亂了我立委都不想幹了不要說罷免我最好今天就辭職算了我都幹不下去啦你知道嗎我都幹不下去啦院長你覺得陳遠勝這個兄弟"},{"start":35359.266,"end":35387.717,"text":"你要我留在立法院還是要我離開請你多支持我好不好請你今天結束以後多休息你多支持啊今天謝謝謝謝我們多愛的陳雪生委員謝謝你的質詢謝謝也謝謝左院長各部會首長列席謝謝報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢我們非常感謝左院長、鄭副院長各位閣員"},{"start":35389.544,"end":35416.466,"text":"一起來列席答詢也要謝謝現場的王振旭委員林月琴委員一起參與今天總質詢我們現在做以下的決定下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢我們現在繼續處理復議案本院民進黨黨團針對第四次會議包括事項第六案第39案至第42案之決定提出復議請公決案"},{"start":35418.154,"end":35425.107,"text":"我們現在做以下決定令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}