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更為說明因為我們其實真的在做最後的幾個利害相關方的意見的收整對 尤其是裡面涉及到很多法制性的文字所以因為就行政部門來說我們提出一個版本會需要比較會有一定的程序跟嚴謹"},{"start":188.067,"end":212.783,"text":"謝謝部長我都尊重包括現在這些相關的條文的文字我自己也都在確認那因為今天禮拜三所以我認為可能應該會是在這一兩週對所以最晚不會超過下個禮拜五就會預告對不對我希望是這樣子對好那我還是希望可以部長可以儘速一點啦如果最後這幾天確認一下我想這個也很多期待啦但是關於這個部分我們的同仁每天都會這件事情是所以我特別這個表達這個對"},{"start":214.324,"end":233.891,"text":"我覺得是肯定也希望說我們可以再加速一點但是因為你也說到最後的階段所以我們再問一點細節的部分其實有關於這個部分我想大家最關心的其中之一是所謂最低報酬的部分那我想要請問一下部長你們目前的版本有沒有預計採什麼樣的方案"},{"start":234.631,"end":262.708,"text":"究竟是最低的這個時薪薪資保障呢還是是所謂的每單三分之一最低基本工資的這個限制我想要請問還是有其他的方案這個部分我是想要追問一下因為其實這個是關鍵中的關鍵我想對旁邊也都在點頭其實委員我們現在正在最後收斂就是真的這個部分因為每一個做法說實話這裡面沒有完美的做法每一個做法都有他的優點跟缺點"},{"start":263.849,"end":289.118,"text":"都有優點跟缺點就是剛才在講到委員剛才講到的幾個保障的做法都有它優點跟缺點所以我們也是在最後評估這個保障的做法的方向目前對所以我就是特別想問你們大概有沒有什麼方向就是說因為你在評估其實委員你問得很精準其實這就是我們現在為什麼還需要一點點時間再去評估這個每一個優缺每一個做法因為對於不同的外送員來說"},{"start":290.678,"end":312.289,"text":"不同處境的外送員來說可能每一個做法都有不一樣的效果其實那我再進一步問一下那你們有沒有去真的很精準的計算因為有關於最低報酬的部分嘛其實這個跟他在真正的成本覺得說外送員在做這個跑單的這個成本也有很大的關係對吧那你們有沒有去精準的計算"},{"start":313.109,"end":338.79,"text":"包含他當然至少是外顯的成本那隱藏的成本當然也要算進去我想要請問你們有沒有去精準的計算他們現在的成本是多少我所謂外送員因為外送員的成本其實你各方的成本都要掌握啦你才知道說有沒有人不願意釋放利潤好那我先針對外送員的部分你有沒有去掌握因為這跟你要訂哪一個方向也有很大的關係"},{"start":339.531,"end":364.713,"text":"其實這部分因為交通部這邊因為針對比方說你機車使用機車相對的成本比方油耗或者是你要去做相關的維修這部分其實交通部有把它相對機車的成本給算出來那請問有沒有你現在有沒有資料我們當然有啊但是詳細的數字交通部這邊有提供對可不可以提供給本席辦公室因為我其實有精算了我其實有精算了我大概提供給你們假設是"},{"start":366.474,"end":380.67,"text":"油耗燃油的費用我算起來一年他假設每日他是很用心全力的在跑好了高度的依賴者他一年下來燃油費可能是四萬五千八"},{"start":381.411,"end":397.018,"text":"那再來保養費可能是一萬三千多其實這個還不含換輪胎可能是換機油的部分然後再來有折舊對不對這個機車的折舊費兩萬六千多好那再來還有包含他的通訊費用然後以及他的設備費用"},{"start":398.519,"end":414.781,"text":"還有他的勞保費用 健保費用然後還有強制險或是意外險等等其實一年下來他的所有費用大約是11萬左右那11萬如果用全台的勞工時數來算"},{"start":416.323,"end":430.308,"text":"你如果是除以2000個小時左右好了你要除以2030個也可以他其實每一個小時的成本就是五六十塊對不對所以你市長也在旁邊一直頻頻點頭他大概就是五六十塊每個小時他要跑就要負擔"},{"start":432.009,"end":450.696,"text":"所以其實這個部分一定要有精準的掌握你才知道怎麼訂定所以我剛剛要表達的是這個意思那另外還要精準的掌握平台它每一單是多少錢因為它每一單它目前我以本席掌握的數據每一單大概是300塊可是它還會另外收配送費"},{"start":451.636,"end":473.807,"text":"好所以其實我們現在要我特別要問部長這一塊就是因為現在可以感覺出來推到現在會有帶風向的狀況就是說我們要怎麼避免在推動因為我想這是朝野大家都有共識啊但你要怎麼避免在推動的過程中這個相關的平台就說我就是全力全部轉嫁給消費者這件事情部長你們有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":475.336,"end":501.423,"text":"跟文說明第一個因為這個外送的這個事業這個數位平台的運作的狀況他其實涉及到了就像之前講到的四方所以我們其實在現在的專法裡面其實我們當然也是希望能夠去處理一方面是在四方的大家都講四方的平衡但是我們也知道在這裡面相對比較強勢的是平台對"},{"start":502.003,"end":517.559,"text":"最弱勢的是我認為最弱勢的是外送員沒錯那怎麼樣保障外送員的基本權益保障基本權益同時對於其他的包括消費者包括對合作商家他們的權益也透過定型化契約的方式去做予以一些"},{"start":519.221,"end":533.608,"text":"部長這個我想我們都討論很多但是您現在講到這裡還是比較屬於大方向指引或是比較空泛一點但我相信你們既然到專法最後階段你們應該掌握更多的細節所以剛剛我有說到就是有關於"},{"start":534.828,"end":558.972,"text":"剛剛的成本 外送員的成本以及外送平台他每一單到底多少錢我剛剛也提供給你 本席我不是主管機關但是我也去研究國際上的資料所以我告訴你說可能以台灣來講他每一單Maybe是300塊還要再另外加配送費好 那你一定都要去掌握你才有辦法權衡嘛我們有 這個跟相關的主管機關其實他們也提供相關的數據對 所以部長我要跟你說一件事情就是我假設啦"},{"start":559.392,"end":584.362,"text":"用一單300塊來簡單來算一下就是現在啊外送員會被加單所以他可能20分鐘會被送三單就要求他送三單可是他也有拿出這個相關的記錄結果他送了三單之後他只收到45塊好那我就用數學算給你聽現在平均他跟台灣的店家收收費的乘數可能是30%到35%所以他三單我剛說一單假設平均300塊好了就是900塊"},{"start":585.763,"end":597.633,"text":"900塊如果他跟每一個這個商店收 抽了35%好了就算是30%好了也就多少 300塊嘛對不對他還有另外的配送費可是他最終只給了外送員可能是45塊 50塊"},{"start":600.856,"end":625.495,"text":"所以我必須要跟部長特別今天要再特別講這個議題就是說我們在推動專法的時候你剛剛說要平衡四方利益嘛我想你也最擔心的就是說你推下去之後平台將所有的費用說我要提高這個消費者要負擔更多我相信您也有在擔心這個事所以我今天要告訴你的就是說為什麼要把這些東西算得很清楚推出來給社會大眾溝通就是說"},{"start":626.756,"end":647.55,"text":"推下去之後照理說不可能平台應該也不可能全部都轉嫁到消費者身上我跟委員說明其實委員在上週公聽會的時候其實也有講到希望平台業者要提供相關的數據給大家去做確認所以這時候也會有各種算法比方說委員也提供你花了心力去做的算法"},{"start":648.03,"end":670.861,"text":"那在因為這關乎到運輸成本的部分所以運輸成本的部分交通部也會提供他相關的估算的方法來讓我們知道好所以這裡面會有各種不同的算法我覺得彼此可能需要做一些確認謝謝所以部長我也希望您可以提供相關的數據既然他們提供給你可不可以也提供給本席辦公室好不好那今天可不可以就今天下班前就先提供給本席辦公室你們現在手上有的相關資料"},{"start":672.041,"end":698.567,"text":"明天 這一週我們提供這一週提供給本席好不好我們可以確認一下因為我其實研究了各國的案例我本席是蠻目前看起來蠻推薦的這個紐約的模式我覺得看起來是它既保有了彈性給平台它對於外送員又有基本的有效的時薪的保障那我建議說不曉得你們有沒有研究這個模式所以請你們可以去了解一下"},{"start":699.451,"end":721.641,"text":"有跟委員說我們現在對這模式也非常熟悉那的確它在一定的保障下但是它的確也會有一些相應的配套比方說它也會遇到平台會設整體外送員的總量的管制其實有這種狀況所以我要跟委員說明的事情是其實目前我們看到的幾個保障的方向每個保障的方向都有它的優點缺點"},{"start":723.306,"end":749.998,"text":"很難有一個一個保障的方向或一個保障的方案他是所有部分都是我們只能夠選最佳的對沒錯所以我們現在在評估最可是因為對不同的外送甚至對不同情境他跑的比較少的或比較全職在跑的他可能對同時對一個部分的優缺點來說他的感受會不一樣所以這也是我們必須總體評估的一部分所以我剛才一直特別問你們現在往哪個方向去是是是好所以但是你們還是沒有回答本席不過沒關係請你們把"},{"start":751.843,"end":779.278,"text":"你如果現在不方便講請你們把你們相關的數據和你們大概的方向我們可以到本席辦公室然後我們來討論如果相信我們草野都希望這件事情有一個最佳解我們認為這個議題一定是需要草野合作的然後需要有一個最佳解希望可以提供給本席辦公室好那再來呢我知道時間到了但是最後問一下有關於這個跨國勞動力精進方案"},{"start":780.694,"end":802.01,"text":"我想要先請問一下部長本方案應該是希望可以提供加薪給勞工讓勞工可以加薪理論上是希望給本國籍的基層勞工加薪對吧對就是相對低薪的不是高薪的不是主管對是要低薪的是在比較是在企業的最最在薪資的最低低層的部分那我們會來確認跟檢視這部分"},{"start":804.952,"end":831.247,"text":"謝謝我相信這樣這個基本上的政策目的也是希望這樣所以我們也希望讓基層勞工有感加薪然後加薪有感提升整體的薪資水準但是我也想要進一步問那你怎麼防止雇主以薪資結構調整的方式來避免實質加薪好比如說他提高底薪但同時減少其他的津貼補助又或者是因為明年上路所以他現在預期他是不是有可能提早我說我就先"},{"start":832.188,"end":851.229,"text":"我就先這個調薪下來然後未來再加薪回去有沒有可能發生這類的事情啊那發生了之後你們要怎麼去檢核查核跟文說明齁其實在整個企業的經營裡面他的薪資結構當然包括很多部分可是我想我們會透過"},{"start":852.751,"end":867.868,"text":"比方說像我們的投保的勞保的資料來去做相關的檢核那如果我們發現他有這個假加薪或者是這種規避的做法的話當然我們就會去撤銷他的名額那第二個也是剛才委員在前一張其實有看到"},{"start":868.869,"end":884.13,"text":"我們其實是對於他如果增加的名額在三年後他其實還是要針對一定的就是同樣等同的名額再加薪一次一樣是兩千塊那這個加薪的幅度的高或低其實這當然我們做了很多的討論"},{"start":885.712,"end":891.56,"text":"因為如果也會有外界說那是不是有可能把這個加薪的幅度再高一點比方說我們現在2000塊有時候是不是要3000塊5000塊可是當3000塊5000塊的時候很可能這個會受到加薪的本國勞工就會變少"},{"start":901.093,"end":918.683,"text":"甚至加薪的幅度更高的時候企業就會產生更高的去做某一種規避行為的誘因所以這裡面的確這個加薪的幅度也是我們反覆在討論怎麼樣是一個相對比較適當的幅度的做法但是我們另外也加了三年後還要再加一次的這樣的做法"},{"start":919.483,"end":945.317,"text":"其實部長這個問題跟剛剛我們在討論所謂外送員專法這對於全面的盤點或數據的盤點也有蠻大的關係嘛比如說各個產業嘛所以像你剛剛說的為什麼你訂的是兩千塊不是五千塊你可能希望的是全面大家都可以更多人更多人可以送可以受到加薪對所以我就想問因為其實還是有很多的民團在質疑勞動部有沒有全面詳細的盤點"},{"start":947.378,"end":969.71,"text":"那請問你們現在盤點的有沒有很很具體的相關數字可以提供給本席辦公室各個產業然後以及就是你們目前在做這個方案的時候你背後的數據支撐是什麼跟跟我說我們其實如果從這張投影片其實大家我們可以看出來我們在方案的時候很重要是本勞的權益優先其實過去在開放外籍移工的時候"},{"start":970.891,"end":988.366,"text":"就會去做一定的成本的要求盡量避免可能會對於本國勞工的權益造成影響以前可能是叫做透過像extra這樣的做法就是他可能要多繳救安費的做法那現在其實我們提供的是有點像是另外一種extra他是利用幫本國勞工加薪的做法"},{"start":989.227,"end":1006.656,"text":"去取得多一点的名额当然我想我们其实这边也会设定查核的机制那透过我们在老保里面的资料去查核所以一样就是说如果发现是有规避行为或者是这个假加薪的话我们其实就会直接取消它这个名额"},{"start":1007.196,"end":1035.289,"text":"好謝謝部長我其實就是想要說因為做任何的政策你們我相信你們背後要有相關的數據做支撐支撐啦好所以希望部長可不可以也提供給本席辦公室你目前針對這個精進方案你們背後用什麼數據去支撐說你們想要這樣做好包含著各個產業究竟缺多少工然後你這樣子加薪各產業受惠的多少好我相信這個你們應該都有做精進的很詳細的數據分析可不可以提供給本席辦公室"},{"start":1035.709,"end":1041.681,"text":"我們把我們怎麼樣去考慮這件事情的一些原則讓委員這邊可以知道好 謝謝好 謝謝廖委長 委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}