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李宗盛"},{"start":1829.565,"end":1847.488,"text":"好謝謝各位媒體朋友嘉賓還有這個非常多的部會一起來參與那我想一開始我們還是希望能夠稍微做一點說明那有介於科技發展日新月異一日千里"},{"start":1848.149,"end":1868.039,"text":"那隨著能源科技的持續變異跟發展那以及呢對於非碳家園低碳無煤等等的目標有追求我們更多元的電力我們也希望能夠追求那核能呢再次的應該說我想對不起這個我稍微再回復一下"},{"start":1869.564,"end":1886.882,"text":"首先希望能够感谢与会的13位专家学者在场的媒体朋友那列席的政府官员代表那今天工地会的主题呢是展望未来科技发展实现非碳家园为台湾能源提供多元的选项"},{"start":1887.583,"end":1913.096,"text":"那台灣的能源問題以及機會或者風險都是全國所有民眾包含產業界學研界都共同關心的議題那不僅如此由於台灣在科技產業上面具有重要的全球戰略地位因此許多國家也十分關切我們的能源政策那畢竟穩定平價"},{"start":1914.537,"end":1930.391,"text":"多元的電力才是台灣未來發展的非常重要的基石那各界對於台灣能源選項的高度關注從今年1月剛剛召開的第三次總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會的會議就可見一斑"},{"start":1931.152,"end":1960.099,"text":"那根據會議記錄委員會的兩位副召集人合作聯合科技董事長童子賢先生以及組長中華民國最高學術研究機關中研院的廖俊志院長都在這樣的會議當中明確的表示考量民生與產業的需求尤其未來AI用電需求量可能無上限台灣土地面積則有限再生能源總量也有上限"},{"start":1961.226,"end":1981.404,"text":"因此必须考虑其他能源选项来因应未来的需求这是最务实的看法也是最沉痛的呼吁为了台湾未来的发展以及我们科技业的永续除了再生的能源政府应该尽速考虑其他能源的选项"},{"start":1982.485,"end":2011.905,"text":"这是这个会议当中包括童子贤董事长包括廖进志院长都曾经提出的相关的意见和看法不仅国内对于能源的选项感到关注跟忧心台湾供电的稳定性也为国内外的产业以及外国的投资者是非常关心的首要议题台湾美国商会今年1月份就有发布2025年商业景气调查报告"},{"start":2012.565,"end":2040.5,"text":"报告当中高达82%的受访者对于台湾未来的能源供应是有表示担忧的52%呼吁政府在未来的一年应将能源充足性作为首要任务比去年也就是2024年的调查结果又上升了13%反映能源疫情受到美国商会以及非常多的美商外商高度的关注"},{"start":2041.32,"end":2069.67,"text":"那也在前阵子美国在台协会AIT的处长古利延处长也表示了能源当然是很多在台湾的公司与美国公司相当忧虑的问题那对此美国能提供核能协助当然也包含其他的绿能还有更多的能源的来源那国内的产业界更多是几乎政府必须重视缺电的问题并提出解决方案"},{"start":2070.49,"end":2092.041,"text":"除此之外,國際上更關注台灣能源供給問題所釀成的國家安全致命弱點。法國國際關係研究所 的研究報告就指出,中共意圖在經濟上封鎖台灣,目標之一便是阻斷台灣能源進口的生命線。"},{"start":2092.941,"end":2112.908,"text":"台灣作為海島電力系統為封閉式的儘管執政黨以2025非核家園為目標且近年來再生能源有一定程度的發展但台灣的能源仍大量依賴天然氣燃煤等化石燃料而其中又高達了96%到98%透過進口"},{"start":2117.625,"end":2145.563,"text":"如果面臨禁運或海運受阻或者極端的情況台灣將極度的脆弱尤其在電力的供應上在區域緊張的脈絡下能源供應會是我們中華民國在國安上面的致命傷因此無論從民生的需求從產業的發展甚至是國家安全的角度那尤其我們現在是非常重視地緣政治的狀態也好"},{"start":2146.664,"end":2163.002,"text":"AI科技的發展也好我們都必須加速為台灣的能源提供充足穩定而且多元的選項那最後呢再次感謝今天與會的專家學者代表本次的公聽會旨在提供一個理性"},{"start":2163.743,"end":2181.034,"text":"平和多元的溝通平台我們立法院所有的立法委員也有傾聽的責任我們做出最好的選項那還請各位專家學者以及立院先進不吝提供寶貴的意見那我們今天也有相關的這個討論提綱我稍微做一個簡要的這個陳述"},{"start":2186.437,"end":2214.851,"text":"那我們今天討論提綱的第一點其實也是相對平衡也多元的就第一點面對可預期之民生與產業發展需求政府如何提供穩定且平價的電力第二點提綱為維持供電穩定在安全無疑的前提下我國核電廠研議或重啟是否具有可行性第三點"},{"start":2215.871,"end":2240.9,"text":"我國對於人員科技研發之資源配置核能科技是否應該為投入項目之一那這是我們今天的討論提綱那我們現在介紹與會的委員以及貴賓那我想因為委員都今天有非常多的委員有這個發言簽到發言那待會我想他們應該會一一來過來來做發言"},{"start":2243.661,"end":2271.576,"text":"那我們也就先介紹這個我們的專家學者的這個名單那我們就以這個簽到這個我們就依序來說台灣環境保護聯盟謝志成會長謝謝謝會長那國立清華大學工程與系統科學系葉宗光特聘教授謝謝教授"},{"start":2273.84,"end":2295.575,"text":"中國文化大學化學工程與材料工程學系林仁斌副教授謝謝謝謝林副教授中華民國全國工業總會工總邱碧英副秘書長謝謝副秘書長國立清華大學科技法律研究所高明志教授謝謝高教授"},{"start":2298.271,"end":2320.14,"text":"那再來綠色公民行動聯盟林鎮元研究員謝謝林研究員謝謝那屏東縣恆春鎮游史金鎮長謝謝也謝謝游鎮長這個不遠千里而來給我們在地的聲音那中華民國全國商業總會劉守仁秘書長謝謝劉秘書長謝謝"},{"start":2324.677,"end":2336.585,"text":"臺灣滿野新竹生態協會蔡雅瑩專職律師 謝謝蔡律師 謝謝那再來MomentX李敬偉執行長 謝謝李執行長那再來呢我們會有這個線上遠端連線的幽碧達郭榮昌創辦人兼執行長那他現在他應該9點半會連線上來"},{"start":2349.975,"end":2364.967,"text":"那我們也有一位以預錄方式出席的非常重要的參與者之一大家都非常重要那我們也有另外一位是以預錄方式參與的合碩聯合科技童子賢童董事長謝謝好那我們現場也有委員已經到場了翁曉琳委員謝謝翁委員"},{"start":2377.915,"end":2397.198,"text":"那我们接下来还有我们非常谢谢我们的在场的官员那我们首先呢介绍国家科学及技术委员会国科会的主任秘书林广宏主秘谢谢那国科会工程技术研究发展处专门委员张嘉恒专委谢谢"},{"start":2398.915,"end":2420.21,"text":"那核能安全委員會核安會副主任委員副主委張欣副主委謝謝謝謝張副主委那核安會綜合規劃處組長李其思組長謝謝核能安全委員會核安管制組組長高斌組長高組長謝謝核安會核物料管制組陳文權組長謝謝"},{"start":2423.099,"end":2448.699,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院院長高子牧院長高院長謝謝那我們也有中研院中央研究院的秘書長陳軍厚陳秘書長謝謝那今天也是百忙中趕來謝謝那中央研究院永續科學中心主任陳于高主任謝謝陳主任也是百忙中趕來那經濟部常務次長賴建信賴次長"},{"start":2449.64,"end":2473.001,"text":"好謝謝次長出席那經濟部國營事業管理師副司長劉啟孝劉副司長謝謝那我們有經濟部能源署代理組長夏育權代理組長那也謝謝台電台灣電力公司副總經理徐永輝徐副總經理謝謝那我們法務部參事汪南君參事謝謝好"},{"start":2475.011,"end":2493.201,"text":"那謝謝大家再次感謝那我想我們再次強調我們這次的公聽會真的是希望能夠聆聽各種聲音那讓我們立法院以及我們的各位官員能夠做出最好的台灣能源政策的決定那本次邀請的與會貴賓有幽碧達的郭榮昌執行長因為在國外無法趕回與會"},{"start":2499.645,"end":2521.939,"text":"那他預定會在9點45分之前就與本會來進行視訊那另外 核說聯合科技童子賢董事長那他同時也是氣候變遷因應委員會的這個副召集人那他應該 他也是在國外無法趕回與會那已經將意見預先錄影那將與與會委員貴賓軍發言完畢以後我們會播放影片"},{"start":2527.302,"end":2555.262,"text":"那另外我們今天呢有手語老師做翻譯也有同步的聽打服務那待會有需要表達意見的時候請到我的右手邊右手邊的這個質詢台進行發言那因為我們只有兩位手語老師那他們就這樣就不用一直移動所以請大家就一律都到右手邊的這個質詢台來進行發言所以拜託大家幫忙配合一下那以利於手語老師的畫面轉播"},{"start":2556.323,"end":2584.869,"text":"那如果需要觀看聽打的服務那請到立法院議事轉播網際網路多媒體隨選視訊系統也就是IVOD的頁面當中會提供連結那能夠收看即時的字幕那我們今天安排的三位聽打員非常辛苦也非常感謝他們謝劍斌彭仁義范文文還有兩位首議員李正輝蕭匡宇我們掌聲先謝謝他們好不好謝謝"},{"start":2585.629,"end":2603.935,"text":"很辛苦那接下來為了能大家能夠順利的表達意見那我們做如下的處理首先我們每位貴賓發言的時間預計是7分鐘那我們在6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲提醒那7分鐘結束的時候我們會有一個結束的鈴聲"},{"start":2604.975,"end":2612.06,"text":"那專家學者的發言呢我們以簽名先後的順序為準那以及我們臨時有變動調整的話我們會公告之那現場的發言以及書面的資料立法院會做成記錄刊登在公報上所以我們今天的"},{"start":2622.348,"end":2646.604,"text":"這個公聽會真的非常非常重要能夠提供我們的各界一個非常完整的這個平衡的看法跟觀點那在場的立法委員如果有意見要發表在10點鐘以前登記者我們也會在會議當中進行穿插並且以在場委員登記順序發言那委員如果有要發言的那可以到主席台來登記"},{"start":2648.052,"end":2657.078,"text":"那我們現在就先請河安會張副主委來就現行的規定執行的狀況等相關問題來提出說明那時間7分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2676.536,"end":2702.038,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進女士先生大家好今天應邀列席大院教育及文化委員會召開之核子反應器設施管制法也就是核管法修法公聽會行會針對本次討論的提綱將依序一核電廠研議或重啟的可行性以及核安會投入核能科技研發的情形提出說明敬請各位委員及先進不吝指教"},{"start":2702.899,"end":2717.528,"text":"在核电厂研议或重启可行性的方面核电厂研议涉及国家整体能源规划政府已经表示核电的使用要以确保核安和废料可处理及社会有共识的前提并依法行政"},{"start":2718.208,"end":2736.989,"text":"行会作为独立的核能安全管制机关本欲法定职责执行专业安全管制为民众安全把关以下仅就核安管制机关角度从国内核电厂机组及用过核子燃料储存现况研议申请之法令遵行等方面依序说明之"},{"start":2737.89,"end":2765.822,"text":"目前核一二厂及核三厂一号机运转执照均已借其依我国目前能源政策规划停止运转依法除役核三厂二号机也将在今年五月借其后停止运转进入除役核一二厂及核三厂一号机在进入除役阶段后台根公司不再对与燃料安全及除役作业安全无关的设备进行维护保养"},{"start":2766.482,"end":2792.261,"text":"核一二厂的行政组织及维护人力也因应厨艺作业的需求而调整另外以核一厂为例其部分与燃料安全无关的周边厂房及设备也陆续拆除因此目前进入厨艺阶段的核能机组设备状态及组织人力都和运转发电所实质所需的条件有一定的差距"},{"start":2792.961,"end":2807.143,"text":"而核三厂因二号机还在运转当中其组织与人力目前仍维持运转期间的状态但在今年五月停止运转进入除疫阶段后台电公司因为巡力有所调整"},{"start":2808.072,"end":2824.138,"text":"目前,合一二厂用过燃料池已尽满足,合三厂用过燃料池储存空间有限,仅可公约再运转四年多。因此,不论厨艺或者研艺,干除设施必须新建启用,才能接续相关作业。"},{"start":2825.205,"end":2851.405,"text":"在室外乾除推動部分台電公司完成核一廠室外乾除熱測室作業目前正在向核安會申請運轉執照此外台電公司也已經在今年1月開始東宮興建核二廠室外乾除設施並規劃將於明年中完成該設施的興建在此期間核安會會執行安全檢查嚴密監督興建的品質"},{"start":2852.566,"end":2874.686,"text":"在室内干除设施推动的部分,台电公司已经在今年1月办理合一、二场室内干除设施公开招标的作业,另于今年2月办理合三场室内干除设施采购文件公开阅览。核安会持续督促台电公司推动核电厂室内干除设施新建计划以及深造作业。"},{"start":2875.649,"end":2896.374,"text":"在法令規定的部分,目前國內和一、二、三場各部機組都已經超過現行法令規定可提出換照申請的期限。核安會尊重大院委員及黨團所提核管法修正草案及條例草案,因提案內容有不同程度的差異,需要多方討論,尋求共識。"},{"start":2899.537,"end":2915.657,"text":"若修法通过,也仍需要经由经济部和台电公司就各个核能机组的状况及继续运转所需办理的安全事项,审慎评估研疫的安全性、可行性及执行效益后,来决定是否提出研疫的申请。"},{"start":2917.537,"end":2943.993,"text":"核安会本于安全管制的立场如果台电公司依法提出研议申请也需依法规要求及参照国际一致的安全标准与做法进行核能机组整体性老化评估与管理检查设备状况更新需要态患的设备执行必要的安全强化的措施盘点组织人力及解决用过燃料储存空间问题等"},{"start":2944.793,"end":2955.938,"text":"在確認機組延長運轉期間可安全運轉,經核安會嚴格的安全審查及現場查證,確認符合法規要求,同意換發執照以後,方能繼續運轉。"},{"start":2959.218,"end":2982.65,"text":"在核安會投入核能科技研發的情形方面核能科技涵蓋領域範疇甚廣包含核子工程、輻射防護、放射性物料法律以及相關衍生應用科技等近三年核安會每年平均投入約9.6億元的科技研發預算約八成經費是用在核能科技"},{"start":2983.51,"end":3013.17,"text":"旨在健全管制技术及法规维系核能人才充实基础科学及推广衍生科技在医农工业的应用等核安会亦透过持续补助国研院执行小型模组化反应器也就是所称的SMR相关研究投入新核能科技研发主要包含收集研析国际间有关SMR之相关发展与管制资讯并进行安全分析技术的先期研究"},{"start":3014.07,"end":3036.84,"text":"此外國研院與國內學研單位共同合作執行國科會補助資詞約數高溫電漿研究整合型計畫進行核融合相關研究目標在116年完成國內首套小型球型TOKMOK研究用實驗裝置為台灣核融合技術的發展建立重要的平台最後"},{"start":3037.85,"end":3060.146,"text":"目前国内大众对于核电厂研议或重启仍存有不同意见,需在核能安全、核废处理、社会共识等前提下审慎评估、充分讨论沟通。核安会尊重大院委员及党团所提的核管法修正草案及条例草案,若修法通过,仍需由经济部和台电公司审慎评估后决定提出是否申请。"},{"start":3061.187,"end":3076.819,"text":"核安會除堅守核能安全職責亦持續投入資源推動核能科技研發以強化安全管制及技術及法規維繫核能人才並接軌國際以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好謝謝張欣張副主委那接下來請國科會林廣宏主秘發言時間五分鐘"},{"start":3100.886,"end":3114.612,"text":"主席各位委員先進學業專家大家好今天很榮幸說要列席貴園會召開的核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案的修法公聽會那以下就請就國科會在補助"},{"start":3115.652,"end":3140.48,"text":"學研界投入與核能相關的研究情形做一個簡要的說明首先國科會長期以來和核安會這邊共同來推動原子能科技學術合作研究計畫結合及應用國內學術單位的研發能量推動原子能名稱應用的基礎研究並支援任務導向的政策規劃與安全管制的"},{"start":3141.5,"end":3164.56,"text":"相關應用研發研究重點大概有四個部分第一個就是核能與廚藝安全的科技第二個是放射性物質的物料的安全科技第三是輻射防護與放射醫學科技第四是跨域合作與風險溝通其次國科會從112年起推動核融合的相關研究"},{"start":3165.848,"end":3192.045,"text":"那學界這邊在投入的研究項目包括有慣性約束合融合的高功率雷射電漿磁約束高溫電漿實驗以及合融合理論的研究那除了前面兩項推動的專案計畫之外國科會也長期支援能源學門基礎科學的研究研究的項目包括有再生能源節約能源儲能以及其他能源科技等"},{"start":3192.685,"end":3215.17,"text":"透過這些獎補助的措施來累積學界基礎研究的能量以及進行人才培育的工作以上簡要報告進行指教並祝大家身體健康順心如意謝謝謝謝國科會林廣宏主任那接下來請中央研究院中研院陳于高陳主任發言時間6分鐘謝謝"},{"start":3227.501,"end":3253.375,"text":"主席 朝委 各位委員還有在座的各位先進學者 大家好中醫院現在沒有專家在做核技術方面的研究不過中醫院為了全國的近鄰的工作曾經做過一些電力的全球趨勢的盤點今天在這裡就分享我們一些已經盤點出來的全球大趨勢"},{"start":3255.116,"end":3268.384,"text":"所有的事情都來自於說全球暖化我們需要有更乾淨的電力那就回到我們排碳的這個基礎上來看我國的碳排57%"},{"start":3271.346,"end":3296.187,"text":"都是因為我們在生產電力供大家使用另外還有40%左右是因為燃燒所排出來的碳加起來能源部門共用了91%這個跟大多數的先進的工業國家是一樣的就是我們的排碳都在能源部門"},{"start":3296.807,"end":3319.995,"text":"那能源部門裡面又以發電是最主要大家不要忘記了我們所有東西燃燒的都在努力的電氣化也就是走向2050在台灣碳排電力恐怕不止51%的排碳會不斷的再往上增加以我們的簡單的計算現在我國每一年需求大概2800億度電到2050的時候我們可能需要"},{"start":3326.919,"end":3349.153,"text":"5000億度電左右 這還不含現在不清楚到底會成長多少的AI的需求和經濟的成長在這樣的條件下 我們就來想想我們現在有的幾個發電的手段燃煤燃氣 燃油抽蓄核能 還有再生能源"},{"start":3349.933,"end":3361.528,"text":"再生能源大概現在只有一年大概271度左右好 我們非常努力在2050年我們大概可以把它衝到1000億度那離5000億度還有4000億度的空間"},{"start":3365.112,"end":3382.042,"text":"那這個空間裡面我們現在有什麼無碳電力的手段呢恐怕馬上可以用的大概就是核二三我們如果不淘汰的話它可以提供三百億度剩下的通通需要努力就是我們需要找到新的手段"},{"start":3382.902,"end":3405.813,"text":"那在這麼多新的手段有哪些呢比如說天然氣我把它去碳一的就是把二氧化碳封存一的或者是把這個天然氣裡面的甲烷的碳拿掉只燃燒氫也就是我們需要發展氫能那也可以進口氯氨氯氫去發展新的氫能發電那自己再"},{"start":3407.394,"end":3434.937,"text":"國內自由的能源有海洋能 生殖能和地熱能全部加起來看能不能夠到5000億度這是大家在努力的一個工作方向這些選項都跟我們的土地大小有關係哪些能源的使用在土地的需求比較高土地需求比較高的是光能和風能"},{"start":3436.538,"end":3454.489,"text":"如果只有單機當然是不佔空間可是要大面積來使用的話就會很佔空間所幸我國是用離岸風電這方面的顧慮比較少一些比較小需求的土地面積是地熱跟核能這個資料供大家做參考"},{"start":3455.61,"end":3483.39,"text":"接下來我們就來看一看其中的核能的選項也就是今天的主題有不少國家現在還擁有核能也在發展核能中總共盤點出來有440座React現在在運轉中有65座施工中規劃中有86座有計劃要建的大概有300多座最近兩三年的規劃"},{"start":3485.071,"end":3509.85,"text":"要興建的數量在攀升中這是全球趨勢我們國內現在有的三個核電廠核一 核二 核三都是第二代的原來我們設計的核四是第三代大家也知道隨著代數的成長這安全性是逐步的提高的到了第三代的最先進的三Plus的時候"},{"start":3510.51,"end":3531.386,"text":"就已經有很好的免人為被動安全停機的機制根據文獻它的安全係數大概提升了兩個數量級大概就是100倍的安全性到了第四代就是大家常常說的這個小型的模組的時候安全性就相對會更高"},{"start":3533.447,"end":3550.41,"text":"是不是更適合我們用呢我們可以大家一起來看看這些新的資訊在台灣我們跟在其他的國家有一個很不一樣的就是我們不斷的有地震我們的斷層密度比人家高這一部分台電也經過了比較嚴厲的評估對核一核二核三廠"},{"start":3558.752,"end":3580.473,"text":"那麼這個Level 3的這個報告也是可以取得的那我跟大家說一下這個結論報告本身是完全符合這個國際準則的不管是核一核二核三都是那是不是需要再進一步因為我國在地震和斷層的資訊上還有更多新的資訊這部分確實還要再進行"},{"start":3583.596,"end":3602.008,"text":"在這個評估還沒有完成之前是不是這些核電廠在緊急事故的時候還能夠維持它的安全這應該也是都是肯定的這個報告給大家去參考接下來我們可以看一下"},{"start":3603.649,"end":3631.161,"text":"我們核一核二核三三個廠現在呢都因為核廢料的中置廠還沒有完成所以都放在廠裡面 一個是冷卻池或乾式儲存那經過評估 我們不拿出來放在廠裡面那最少還可以用十年那全部放在廠裡 如果乾儲也建好了那大概可以用到四五十年但是之後我們還是要找到中置廠來把它"},{"start":3632.842,"end":3647.555,"text":"保存至於SMR它的安全性確實是比較高可是它的核廢料有不同的設計核廢料有的機組甚至比原來還更高這個需要討論我們倒是做任何其他的選擇"},{"start":3648.476,"end":3665.424,"text":"最後跟大家報告科學家覺得科學在不斷的進展以前解決不了的問題科學家都很有信心以後陸陸續續會解決所以我們也期待合融合會在未來的幾個世紀未來幾個十年裡面會變成我們的新的選項謝謝大家"},{"start":3672.537,"end":3680.243,"text":"好謝謝中研院陳愚高主任那我們接下來有請經濟部的賴建信次長賴次長發言時間7分鐘謝謝"},{"start":3697.646,"end":3719.567,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生感謝各位委員對本部業務的各項的支持跟指教承蒙貴委員會邀請參加本公聽會緊究我國核能電廠現狀及重啟再運轉需解決的課題提出簡要的報告 敬請各位先進不吝指教"},{"start":3720.7,"end":3733.652,"text":"首先,我國核能電廠的現況第一,核一廠於108年7月運轉執照屆期目前已經拆除核安關鍵設施、汽渦輪發電機、聯外鐵塔"},{"start":3740.432,"end":3764.201,"text":"輸電線路等發電必要設施至於在核二廠的1號機組的部分運轉執照原在110年12月27號屆期是因用過燃料池已經放滿燃料棒反應爐內的用過燃料棒無法移出所以提前於110年7月2號停止運轉"},{"start":3769.189,"end":3772.633,"text":"8號機組也於112年3月14號運轉執照屆期至於河山廠1號機組於113年7月運轉執照屆期8號機組將於今年的5月17號屆期"},{"start":3788.8,"end":3803.764,"text":"第二報告核電廠重啟再運轉需解決之課題首先是在確保核能安全部分為了確保核能電廠之安全重啟再運轉核能機組需參考國外電業的做法針對核電廠重要設施結構進行通盤性的盤點與檢視也就是我們說的安全總體檢"},{"start":3819.758,"end":3844.11,"text":"結構設備機組的受領的管理設備的態況更新針對福島事件安全強化耐震補強評估且重啟再運轉計畫需經國際同儕審查並通過監管單位核安會的審查至於在處置核廢料部分無論核電廠是否重啟再運轉"},{"start":3845.657,"end":3873.178,"text":"核廢料的處置必須務實面對要能配套推動目前核廢料的處置推動過程屢遭反對高階核廢料最終處置廠也面臨選址無法源光做地質調查就遭到抗爭的窘境低階的核廢料最終處置廠也因為地方政府的拒絕協助公投"},{"start":3875.728,"end":3875.888,"text":"第三"},{"start":3897.591,"end":3914.384,"text":"政府長期電源的規劃,是以提供穩定且平價的電力為目標,為了滿足AI發展、半導體產業的擴廠、運具電器等大幅成長的用電、成長量及產業需求,"},{"start":3915.427,"end":3927.29,"text":"本部每年滾動檢討推估未來用電需求以考量半導體AI新興科技等用電需求預估113年到117年用電的成長2.5%左右經檢視113年用電的成長時機為2.5%與預估值一致"},{"start":3940.259,"end":3954.487,"text":"此外本部優先擴大建置再生能源推動燃氣計畫113年深霸二期以及大潭七號八號陸續上線114年預計有新達CC1號2號及台中新CC1號上線至121年新增的機組累計可增加"},{"start":3967.314,"end":3977.3,"text":"1636萬千瓦遠大於廚藝機組的數量可充分滿足用電需求此外考量未來間歇性再生能源大量併網積極推動"},{"start":3979.983,"end":3995.647,"text":"具備快速啟動能力及高升降載率之燃氣複循環計畫提升整體供電的可靠度除了積極加強電網韌性及投入儲能系統建置之外"},{"start":3997.328,"end":4013.299,"text":"並搭配優化基礎調度的策略需求面的管理確保再生能源發電量佔比情境之下之穩定供電隨著再生能源設置成本逐漸下降我國各項短過匯率亦逐年下降"},{"start":4014.259,"end":4040.81,"text":"為了確保我國電價的平穩反映電業合理供應成本本部依法設立電價審議委員會由學者專家工商及消費團體代表及相關政府機關代表組成並考量對民生物價產業競爭力能源使用效率之影響以公平公正公開透明的原則進行審議"},{"start":4042.991,"end":4059.596,"text":"對於新興核能技術的能源配置在能源安全核能安全核廢料可處理社會可充分共識的情況下政府對未來新興核能技術抱持開放的態度目前國際新興"},{"start":4061.863,"end":4079.583,"text":"新型的核能技術的發展尚未成熟歐美先進國家尚無建造及運轉的時機故在設計的安全性以及核廢料是否能減量仍有待確實的時機來佐證本部及台電公司將持續關注國際發展的現況"},{"start":4082.335,"end":4101.388,"text":"面對未來新核能技術的發展可能性除了配置適當的人力進行核能科技的勤收與研究之外並與國外技術擁有者開發者保持更多的對話也尋求國外合作的機會如派員至國外核電廠"},{"start":4103.106,"end":4127.651,"text":"及國家實驗室見習最後政府基於長期電源的穩定及平穩物價預計在113年至121年全國大型機組竟增加1630萬千瓦大於預估用電成長需求可確保能源穩定本部尊重國會修法的決議維修法前本部需依法"},{"start":4128.931,"end":4138.856,"text":"依照各項核子管理時程進行相關的工作重啟再運轉需確保核安之外亦需務實與社會溝通處理核廢料處置的問題"},{"start":4143.325,"end":4158.238,"text":"面對未來新核能發展技術的可能性本部將持續關注國際的發展現況主動尋求對話以及合作以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":4161.94,"end":4174.711,"text":"好 謝謝賴市長那我們接下來我們先介紹一下我們今天有非常多位委員這個踴躍來登記發言那我們除了剛剛的歐小林委員以外我們還有林沛翔委員好那我們還有這個廖先祥委員還有我們的蘇清泉委員"},{"start":4186.345,"end":4194.131,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會有關核子反應器設施管制法部分條文的修正草案修法公聽會請代表法務部列席提出相關的意見如下 敬請指教"},{"start":4213.59,"end":4235.629,"text":"有關核磁反應器設施管制法的各項修法議題包括政府應該如何提供穩定且平價的電力核電廠研議或重啟是否具有可行性能源科技研發的資源配置等等這些都是涉及國家能源供應及環境安全等重大政策問題需要相關領域專家的專業意見"},{"start":4237.911,"end":4260.417,"text":"以及主管機關綜合評估國家產業發展的需求能源安全投資環境社會民生期待生活環境永續等面向必須兼顧民生及產業並關注能源對環境的衝擊及其可承受的能力以尋求最大共識支持"},{"start":4261.317,"end":4287.198,"text":"因此有關各位委員、團體、學界、機關等各界的專業意見保護部均與尊重至於核子反應器運轉執照的核發、換發甚至申請再運轉的審核相關審核所需的時程、方式、安全條件等必要的考量這個涉及核能安全的專業知識與技術"},{"start":4289.44,"end":4303.442,"text":"直接的重大政策必須仰賴主管機關多面向多層次的思維以及整體的配套考量建請先由主管機關核能安全委員會提出相關實證"},{"start":4305.342,"end":4322.489,"text":"藉由專業審慎評估並做成政策決定確立據社會共識的能源政策及修法方向以研擬相關草案條文以上報告敬請主席及各位委員女士先生指教謝謝好謝謝王參事發言好謝謝好那我想"},{"start":4332.477,"end":4341.62,"text":"接下來我想依據我們先前的主席發言時有表示我們本次有邀請與會貴賓 郭榮昌執行長他其實在之前也在國外無法趕回與會"},{"start":4349.702,"end":4371.465,"text":"那他本身的也是做這個科技方面包含GPU包含這個雲端的運算等等那我們剛剛有表達是預定於9點45分以前會與本會進行視訊那我想我們是不是請這個教育委員會這邊如果已經上線了我們現在可以切上來"},{"start":4372.486,"end":4387.486,"text":"那因為一些時間的關係那我們也稍微表達一下就是我們今天也所有的與會的成員也都有文字的這個文件在我們的各位的桌上"},{"start":4388.067,"end":4403.313,"text":"那我們包含核能安全委員會的這個核子反應器設施管制法修法公聽會的書面報告我們是有放進來的那我們也包含國家科學及技術委員會國科會"},{"start":4405.054,"end":4418.801,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法的部分條文修正草案的修法公定會的這個我們這次的書面報告那國歌會也有提出那另外呢也包含由中研院有提出的這個國內外核電技術的發展現況"},{"start":4422.463,"end":4447.904,"text":"包含剛剛我們所表達的這個內容那以及我們談論到的一些細節的數字細項等等也都在這份文件當中那另外呢也非常感謝經濟部除了剛剛的發言之外呢也有這個書面的報告核子反應器設施管制法部分條件修正草案的修法公聽會那經濟部呢也是非常重要的在這個議題上的部會那包含台電這裡"},{"start":4449.125,"end":4468.131,"text":"那另外也包含這個法務部這裡也非常感謝出席那這個核子反應器設施管制法部分調完修正草案的修法工聽會的書面資料也都有提供好那我們現在切換一下視訊"},{"start":4477.147,"end":4491.242,"text":"在這邊我們視訊在切換的過程裡面呢我們也稍微跟各位表達一下就是這個科技一日千里也非常謝謝剛才呢我們有這個賴思寶委員也有到場"},{"start":4492.303,"end":4516.236,"text":"來關注我們今天的公聽會之外那我們也透過視訊連線的方式邀請郭榮昌這個幽閉達執行長遠距的來進行視訊來表達那同時呢我們也跟各位報告就是我們待會的發言順序呢就是兩位委員那兩位這個專家學者那也非常感謝我們這個不分黨派"},{"start":4516.676,"end":4534.697,"text":"有非常多位委員都有這個田達做這個發言的登記那同時我們也再次提示各位就是我們有非常完整的文件的資料都在桌上那如果你沒有拿到的話也可以跟我們確認好那我們現在切到這個視訊這邊"},{"start":4677.113,"end":4697.547,"text":"不好意思那因為我們這個設備還在做一些優化調整因為也希望我們的影像跟聲音都可以順利的出來方便我們的聽達人員跟手語老師所以我們再給我們的系統人員一些些時間那我們先稍微調換一下次序我們先請這個林佩祥委員進行發言"},{"start":4707.832,"end":4713.217,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位在場的專家學者跟政府官員還有各位媒體先進"},{"start":4716.499,"end":4736.994,"text":"有關無碳化已經是變成世界未來的趨勢這件事情我們都有不管你是哪個有什麼意識形態哪個黨派基本上這都是我們一致的共識而其實這共識不是應該只有在我們中華民國而已而是包括在歐盟美國甚至中國大陸甚至俄羅斯他們都已經把"},{"start":4738.835,"end":4754.194,"text":"核能當作一個部分就是說如何去製造電力的一個部分為什麼因為Global warming也就是全球暖化這個是一個所謂的迫切而且就在迫在眉睫的危機Clear and present danger"},{"start":4754.915,"end":4776.52,"text":"所以說我個人認為我們現在走的路剛好跟我們現在未來的趨勢背道而馳我記得沒錯的話台灣現在高達95%以上的發電是來自用碳力發電的所以對於我們未來不只是說我們自己本身的電價也好還是未來我們在進出口方面的稅也好其實是非常不利的"},{"start":4777.2,"end":4793.756,"text":"而我們也必須很認真的很務實的去了解到說這個世界上沒有任何一種發電方式是絕對安全而且是最好的方式這件事情是不存在的我之前差不多在半年前我跟"},{"start":4794.797,"end":4814.722,"text":"聯合國原子能委員會的一位顧問他同時之間也是那個德州科技大學的教授聊過他說因為每個國家他對他的地理限制不管是面積也好還是他的區域也好都有一定的限制在所以每個國家他們去發電的方式也進步相同"},{"start":4815.342,"end":4838.54,"text":"所以剛剛像說我們的中研院的陳主任也講到這一塊像是我們台灣適不適合去全力發展風電跟光電這是一個大問號而我們因為地理環境的原因是不是全面要使用太陽能而太陽能的發電的效率是不是能夠支撐我們的民生用電跟我們的工業用電其實這都是值得考慮的"},{"start":4839.481,"end":4859.1,"text":"所以說我們需要,與其說我們想要更多的電力,倒不如說我們需要更多的電力,而我們除了需要這些電力之外,我們更希望它是clean and cheap energy,也就是廉價而且乾淨的能源,或許核電是我們必須要考慮的一個選項。"},{"start":4861.021,"end":4880.734,"text":"我們現在常聽到一句話叫做算力即國力算力即競爭力那如果要讓中華民國在這個世界上繼續能夠保持同樣的競爭力而且身為一個先進國家我們不但保持競爭力之外我們也變成我們一個全球社會裡面獲不可缺的一環"},{"start":4882.195,"end":4901.974,"text":"那這一點來講的時候我們就必須考慮到說我們是不是要摒棄所謂的絕對安全在電力製造上面絕對安全把它給摒棄掉而是考慮到很務實的考慮到相對安全的能源政策我們是不是應該考慮到說怎麼樣我們有更多的電力來應付未來的挑戰"},{"start":4903.171,"end":4929.259,"text":"我們知道AI產業需要電力甚至說我記得以前李登輝前總統曾經講過一句話發展經濟不外乎水跟電那換句話說我們已經聽到太多的業界領袖說我們需要更多的電力所以我們可以總歸來講台灣中華民國我們就是需要更多的電力不是我們想要而是我們需要"},{"start":4929.719,"end":4952.586,"text":"要讓我們中華民國繼續繁榮下去繼續在世界上保有競爭力更多的電力是必須的因此我在這邊呼籲找一個方式能夠繼續讓我們的核電廠能夠延益之外而且能夠提供相對安全的政策跟相對安全的措施讓我們的電力讓我們的國家讓我們的產業能夠繼續下去這是未來不得不的選擇以上"},{"start":4957.369,"end":4977.158,"text":"好謝謝這個林佩祥委員的發言好那我們發言順序稍微做一下調換那我跟翁曉琳委員調換那我們請翁曉琳委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4987.407,"end":5010.044,"text":"张伟还有苏委员在座的各位先进媒体朋友大家好当全世界先进国家纷纷在重启核电之时台湾却反其道而行摒弃核电和全球的趋势唱反调民进党政府十五不化一意孤行始终抱着非核家园的神主牌"},{"start":5010.905,"end":5013.887,"text":"聲稱2025年的綠能佔比要達到20%然而不僅光電離岸風電等等承諾持續的跳票還爆發多起的綠能幣案從早先的雪甲爐渣案88槍擊案台南光電案雲豹能源案乃至最近的台鹽綠能光電幣案等等民進黨根本就是把綠能當成是私人的提款機那犧牲台灣的環保和"},{"start":5039.864,"end":5040.865,"text":"这个台电的能源结构的这个能源饼"},{"start":5066.244,"end":5089.079,"text":"燃煤燃气还是以燃煤燃气为主的火力发电仍然是高达八成那么干净能源的核电呢却下降到百分之三等到今年的五月十七号核三厂的二号机直照到期这个停止运作之后呢那么台湾核电归零火力发电预估大概会达到八成五"},{"start":5090.438,"end":5097.604,"text":"我們可以想像五月後的中南部的台灣的天空恐怕不再是灰蒙蒙而是變成這個暗蒙蒙"},{"start":5101.257,"end":5112.746,"text":"空氣污染將更為的嚴重根據環境部的資料顯示2024年全國PM2.5的平均濃度是高達每立方微克12.5毫克遠遠超過世界衛生組織的5毫克的這個標準其中嘉義"},{"start":5123.052,"end":5133.887,"text":"嘉義縣 嘉義市 雲林 高雄 南投 台南的PM2.5的濃度標準更是WHO標準的3到4倍"},{"start":5135.404,"end":5162.354,"text":"医学研究能也早已经就显就已经证实PM2.5的空污绝对是与肺腺癌息息相关那么民进党是让人用肺发电不仅无法获取台湾的能源安全与稳定供电更让所有人的健康随时都暴露在危险之中那么我们知道常年的错误的能源的政策导致台湾供电吃紧常年亏损电价"},{"start":5163.194,"end":5175.279,"text":"高漲蔡政府任內的八年就發生四次的全國大停電無數次的小停電曾幾何時夏季不停電竟然成為台灣民眾的小確幸"},{"start":5176.792,"end":5195.677,"text":"错误的能源政策让台电呢每年花费数百亿的来购买绿电那么光是112年就花了905亿在绿能上那平均的每度电高达5.2元是核能发电成本的4倍台电的亏损呢就像是一个无底洞"},{"start":5196.877,"end":5200.5,"text":"政府過去三年已經撥補了台電三千億至今虧損還有四千多億這虧損的補助如果能夠救台電也就罷了但是事實上是越補越大動為何我們民眾還要無止盡的去倒貼為民進黨錯誤的政策去買單"},{"start":5215.271,"end":5217.473,"text":"蔡政府曾經承諾說不會缺電也不會調漲電價但是至今已經多次跳表到目前為止已經調整了四次的電價平均的累積漲幅高達35%產業的電價更是高達66%"},{"start":5232.878,"end":5236.44,"text":"民生產業叫苦連天那麼預計民進黨接下來還會以這次立法院撥補給台電一千億為由四月預計會再漲電費那麼當全世界各國都已經紛紛將核能視為是淨明碳排的淨潔能源那麼有很多的專家學者也呼籲那麼應該台灣要重回核電像是唐獎的永續發展得主"},{"start":5260.774,"end":5273.68,"text":"美国哥伦比亚大学萨克斯教授那么他就说台湾的资源天然资源有限核能呢是可能的选项合作的童子贤董事长"},{"start":5274.898,"end":5295.656,"text":"也是说在台湾地侠人仇的环境限制之下应该要借尽瑞士还有瑞典要废除核能基础法令年限的法令限制那么中研院院长廖志俊也说台湾的不能够画地自限把自己困在再生能源的泥沼中AI的产业用电需求极大"},{"start":5296.357,"end":5318.112,"text":"那么至于就是像美国的这个先任处长顾立言也说台湾发展AI产业必须要足够的积载发电量如果我们需要核能美国可以提供协助当世界各国都在逐步重返核电发展和解决核废料的同时我们看到美中"},{"start":5320.495,"end":5336.522,"text":"法日韩都是加速的在新建核电厂美国日本的其他国家更是将核电厂研译美国现在就有88座的核电厂是执照研译从40年延长到60年那么我们知道其实核能发电的成本"},{"start":5337.322,"end":5347.545,"text":"穩定每度電是只有1.4元那麼更重要的是他可以達到能源自主鞏固國家安全的目的那麼就我國目前的核管法的規定核電廠的運轉執照最長只有40年如果需要延長必須在執照的這個前5年"},{"start":5356.708,"end":5384.37,"text":"到期前五年提出但是现在核一核二核集核三厂的一号机都已经进入除异阶段无法提出再运转的申请那么为了解决这个问题那么我也提出了本席也提出了修法一方面的就是放宽申请研议的时间的限制那允许在换照之前让核电厂可以继续运作二方面也可以允许将已除异的核电厂在技术设备安全无意"},{"start":5384.75,"end":5414.33,"text":"无余的情况之下可以提出再运转申请让合一合二合三厂都有机会回归商转那本次的修法无疑的就是要排除台湾目前核电厂研议所面临的法规障碍让台湾的民生产业不至于会陷入无电可用或是用不起电的困境那么今天我们立法院在野的所有的委员我们很负责任的提出修法案"},{"start":5414.83,"end":5442.124,"text":"那麼完備核電廠研議的相關法制那接下來當然還是要看民進黨政府的態度是不是會同意讓台電提出核電廠研議的申請還請全國的人民產業認真的看這一條邁向便宜乾淨安全的能源的永和之路民進黨到底是走還是不走是否真的在乎你我的健康台灣的發展以上謝謝"},{"start":5445.84,"end":5463.615,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言那接下來我們請專家學者台灣環境保護聯盟謝志成會長發言那葉忠光我們教授清大工程與系統科學系特聘教授葉教授準備謝謝"},{"start":5480.01,"end":5500.165,"text":"主席 在場的所有先進大家早安我請代表台灣環境保護聯盟在這裡就今天公聽會的提綱表達台灣環境保護聯盟的意見以及台灣環境保護聯盟對相關議題的立場"},{"start":5527.28,"end":5530.642,"text":"電力的選擇要考慮的項目很多"},{"start":5533.41,"end":5558.98,"text":"只是其中的一項由於價格是變動的相對的那能源的選擇應該還是要站在國家永續發展的高度所以容許我把今天的提綱評價兩個字做調整那有關提供穩定電力方面"},{"start":5561.029,"end":5566.192,"text":"環盟的立場就是希望能夠延續能源轉型"},{"start":5572.143,"end":5585.614,"text":"減煤、蒸汽、展綠、非核的規劃原則利用燃氣發電可以快速升降載的優點配合風電、光電的發電時間穩定電網同時我們也支持持續開發離岸風電、光電擴大地熱發電的開發目標"},{"start":5599.845,"end":5618.211,"text":"可以和燃氣發電相輔相成那有關當前電價調漲壓力也因為國際情勢的改變我們看到曙光當然也面臨的一些陰影支持核能的人常常說"},{"start":5629.011,"end":5640.753,"text":"非核家園是電價上漲的元兇甚至說核電是最便宜的這個能源但我這裡引用"},{"start":5641.906,"end":5662.611,"text":"IEA的報告IEA報告裡頭舉出美國歐盟中國跟印度的例子從這幾個國家的資料可以看得出來核電的成本並不是最低成本最低的反而是再生能源那這一份來自歐盟的數據用圖的方式呈現更清楚"},{"start":5676.947,"end":5682.97,"text":"剛剛也有幾位先進提到2050淨零碳排那EIA的報告也看得出來2050淨零"},{"start":5692.591,"end":5706.668,"text":"碳排的情境下呢2050年全球發電的占比再生能源是占89%核電是占8%足足差了11倍那第二個議題就關於"},{"start":5712.386,"end":5734.414,"text":"研議跟核安的這個議題那核安的重要性無庸置疑老舊核電廠研議更需要就核安風險的評估跟審查時間放在最優先的順位那遺憾的是我們看到目前的幾個修法版本"},{"start":5735.434,"end":5759.207,"text":"卻把攸關河岸風險評估及審查所需要的前置時間把它給閹割或者是模糊化我們看來這些修法版本是形同修法沒收河岸這是很多環境議題的團體沒有辦法接受的在台灣"},{"start":5763.097,"end":5785.77,"text":"談老舊核電廠的研議除了設施本身老化的問題之外還需要考慮兩個非常重要的議題一個是核廢料一個是新發現三座核電廠都因為臨近活動斷層衍生的安全耐震評估需要進一步的處理"},{"start":5789.226,"end":5814.478,"text":"那我這裡秀出台灣核廢料管理的這個入境規劃表面上看起來是條條大陸通羅馬那執行鏈上面卻看到條條大陸都有土石流那也不知道羅馬在哪裡在進不得退不能的情況底下累積的核廢料到底有多少"},{"start":5816.471,"end":5824.416,"text":"我們看到低放射性廢棄物的部分1996年5月之前因為蘭嶼計畫存放在蘭嶼低放儲存場的數量"},{"start":5829.366,"end":5847.183,"text":"已經有10277桶那1996年5月之後因為沒有辦法再送到南宇低放儲存場那目前存放在三座核電廠的低放射性廢棄物"},{"start":5848.484,"end":5863.135,"text":"已經達到113,741桶高放射性廢棄物的部分因為沒有著落所以目前全部都暫存在各個核電廠裡面累積的數量已經達到21,527宿"},{"start":5875.285,"end":5900.243,"text":"各位知道這個低放的監管要三百年高放的監管要達數十萬年舊的沒有辦法處理那延逸或者是重啟呢將會產生更多的核廢料我們這樣子做對得起下一代會不會留更多的在給我們的子孫這是大家要好好思考的"},{"start":5901.141,"end":5928.436,"text":"那另外一個就是新發現三座核電廠都跟國斷成袋為伍那我們要思考的是也要問的是已經知道蓋錯地點了是不是還要繼續僥倖研議20年那以前傻傻呆呆的過日子研議之後就要膽戰心驚的過日子"},{"start":5931.052,"end":5949.243,"text":"北海岸的風景很美麗,夕陽很美,但是已經淨黃昏,那放手吧,套句俞立華的小說《又見鍾離》的一句話,包起來的舊衣服已經不能穿了,何必把它打開?"},{"start":5951.011,"end":5965.059,"text":"有關核能科技的部分我們並不反對但是我們希望讓非核加鹽是核能科技的研究的新起點把重點擺在核後端"},{"start":5967.638,"end":5981.233,"text":"對下一代負責的一個研究方向那因為我是代表環境保護聯盟來表達環境保護聯盟對相關議題的看法那我們簡單講我們是反對核電廠再研議那堅持非核家園"},{"start":5990.471,"end":6003.195,"text":"堅持非核附加研那我們也以這個為信念加入這一次大罷免的行列這是環盟最嚴肅的立場謝謝大家謝謝謝志成會長的發言"},{"start":6012.657,"end":6040.028,"text":"那接下來我們請葉宗光教授清大工程與系統科學系特聘教授葉教授謝謝主席好在場各位先生大家好首先我要說明一下我等一下要講的內容都在我手上的這一份這個書面資料裡面如果在場媒體有興趣的話等一下可以找我索取電子檔"},{"start":6040.848,"end":6063.93,"text":"那首先我要說明我們國家現在目前面臨的兩大問題第一個就是供電不穩定還有這個缺電的問題第二個問題就是大家非常關切的電價問題那我先從這個供電穩定的部分來跟大家說起原來在政府執行非核家園政策之後他下一步"},{"start":6064.691,"end":6089.146,"text":"希望能夠達標的就是再生能源為什麼是再生能源因為包括核電跟再生能源兩者都是屬於無碳電力所以原來政府的規劃是希望再生能源能夠填補核電除以之後的一個缺口可是我們看看最新的數據就可以看得出來到今年1月最新的數據呢原本規劃要有2000"},{"start":6091.528,"end":6098.677,"text":"萬千瓦的太陽光電它現在執行只來到1436萬千瓦再加上風電原來規劃是690萬千瓦目前執行只到392萬千瓦在這種情況底下"},{"start":6108.149,"end":6136.748,"text":"綠電來自於再生能源的電力是不可能取代核電原來可以供應的電力所以在這個部分它會造成無碳電力供電不足的一個情形那各位都知道目前在全世界不管是AI也好不管是資料中心資料處理中心也好他們都希望能夠取得穩定的無碳電力今天台灣如果希望"},{"start":6137.528,"end":6155.134,"text":"這些外國的高科技廠商能夠到台灣來進行投資的話如果你沒有辦法提供穩定的無碳電力他們是不可能將台灣列為投資的對象再加上台灣本身半導體產業它也需要擴充"},{"start":6156.734,"end":6180.476,"text":"擴充的時候它也需要電力我們台灣今天的產品要出口到其他國家去的時候很快面臨的就是碳稅科徵的問題今天我們台灣的電力如果超過八成以上都是來自於排碳電力我們企業的競爭力就會喪失你說政府這邊有沒有在做規劃有"},{"start":6182.478,"end":6199.478,"text":"經濟部在從去年到未來去年開始的五年之內他其實規劃了18部的燃氣機組要新增但是這18部的燃氣機組能不能順利運轉今天不是蓋好電廠事情就結束了"},{"start":6200.619,"end":6212.196,"text":"這18部新的機組能不能順利運轉其實還是取決於未來新增的天然氣接收站目前只有3階預計在今年完工工氣剛剛通過環評的4階"},{"start":6215.541,"end":6241.235,"text":"四階的邪惡電廠他要到2030年才有辦法供電然後再加上其他位於台中高雄還有麥寮這幾個地區的燃氣電廠需要的五階六階七階現在民眾抗爭的問題都沒有解決所以未來這18部新增的機組到底是不是能夠像經濟部規劃的一樣"},{"start":6243.476,"end":6267.213,"text":"供給電力這個問題還是個未知數另外我想特別跟各位報告的是現在全球為了達到2050淨零碳排這樣子的一個目標很多國家都希望能夠繼續來使用核電甚至擴充核電COVID-28的時候全球有22個國家提出來"},{"start":6267.953,"end":6281.878,"text":"希望核電在2050年的時候能夠有發電量為現在的三倍所以你可以看到這就是一個全球趨勢那在核電"},{"start":6283.118,"end":6302.269,"text":"研議的部分其實我們還有很多國家可以來參考目前我們的核二跟核三有三部機組是停止運轉的有一部機組正在運轉礙於法規它沒有辦法進行研議可是今天如果要認真考慮重啟或者繼續運轉的話"},{"start":6304.17,"end":6318.739,"text":"美國密西根州的Parsiti核電廠它就是由停止運轉來重啟然後要打算來恢復供電加州的這個魔鬼谷核電廠它是正在運轉的核電廠"},{"start":6319.96,"end":6343.105,"text":"他去申請的原意美國核管會直接給了繼續發電的一個許可這個都是我們台灣的核安管制機關可以加以參考的今天要討論的這個修法其實還不是能夠最快速解決問題最快速解決問題的是讓我們的核管會核安會透過內部的"},{"start":6345.106,"end":6360.488,"text":"這個法規的修正就可以讓我剛剛提到的不管是重啟或者要繼續運轉都可以順利的來執行所以這個都不是問題就看政府這邊有沒有心要執行下去"},{"start":6361.149,"end":6387.477,"text":"另外我也想提到因為剛剛有先進提到核廢處理的問題核廢國家都已經做了非常完整的規劃從廠內濕式儲存到廠內的乾式儲存到最終處置這個三階段的做法早在很多年以前就已經規劃完畢了核廢不是沒有辦法處理是你政府要不要處理"},{"start":6388.177,"end":6416.453,"text":"否則就算今天電廠不研議你一樣有核廢必須要處理的問題要解決所以大家必須要務實的來理性思考最後我想講賴清德總統曾經在去年競選的時候當著台大學生的面說到未來國家碰到緊急狀況的時候可以啟動核電來解決能源供應的問題我想告訴各位"},{"start":6417.153,"end":6438.303,"text":"我個人是在河工這個領域非常多年的研究我今天要重啟一個核電廠不是總統你今天說的核電廠明天就可以發電不是你今天電廠的機組不讓他維持在停機待命的狀態底下他就不可能快速的去啟動發電所以"},{"start":6440.964,"end":6465.607,"text":"你一定要透過修法就算你不讓核電廠發電你也要維持機組在停機待命的狀態底下他才有可能未來真的總統一聲令下他大概三四天一個禮拜之內就可以重啟發電這個才是真心對全國人民負責的一個做法"},{"start":6466.067,"end":6487.815,"text":"除非今天有人跟我講賴總統去年競選時候的這些宣示只是隨口說說那我後面就沒有繼續後續的評論謝謝謝謝特聘教授葉教授的發言那我們接下來有請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":6494.179,"end":6515.868,"text":"謝謝主席那各會與會的機關代表與先進及專家選擇那我想因為隨著AI的發展電力的需求是持續的在增加所以我們還是必須謹慎而且務實理性的來面對我們的能源問題那目前在這個過程之中我想就是說台灣的核電廠的壽命已經接近或者是超過40年研議其實需要"},{"start":6516.448,"end":6527.94,"text":"大幅的去升級我們的安全系統那可是呢現在是有一些風險存在的例如反應爐壓力容器的催化問題而我們目前缺乏足夠的實驗數據來預測40年以上的輻射催化的一個狀況這使得"},{"start":6533.246,"end":6553.724,"text":"直接討論研議的修法會讓這個研議的這個核電廠如同是一個未爆彈那同時呢雖然核廢料這個現在核廢料一個最大的問題就是說我們現在第一階核廢料的儲存廠已經飽和了而且高放射性的核廢料不是還在冷卻池就是剛進行乾式儲存"},{"start":6555.694,"end":6574.629,"text":"而且我們現在其實都還沒有看到永久儲置場的共識在地方縣市上面的一些爭議都還沒有處理好所以針對這些高放射性的核廢料相關的管理機關也還沒有成立這代表的是什麼是我們現在沒有處理核廢料的一個手段我們就要繼續來討論使用核電"},{"start":6576.85,"end":6594.817,"text":"這樣子的論述我想是有點本末倒置的那最後就是核電廠的成本不管是興建或是研議的成本都是非常高的就例如說剛剛也有前輩提到就是說核商場類似設計的魔鬼加州美國加州魔鬼核電廠來說他們在2024年的時候呢為了研議而進行的貸款"},{"start":6599.839,"end":6613.994,"text":"為了研議而進行的貸款高達14億美元五年的營運成本更高達了118億美元換算成每千度的電費大概是101塊美元根據2024年世界核能產業現況報告的統計"},{"start":6618.158,"end":6634.216,"text":"过去的核电跟现在的核电成本相比已经从原本的每千度123块美元上升到了182块美元等于成长了49%将近一半"},{"start":6635.365,"end":6660.245,"text":"相反的風力和太陽能的成本已經下降了六成和八成因此核電要能夠成為平價電力的來源可能是有點困難那再來就是說綜合上面剛剛所說的一些結論就是說其實修法還是無法解決我們現在面臨到的一個安全問題因為能源這個是我們還是必須務實理性的那如果我們直接討論核廢的"},{"start":6661.806,"end":6679.78,"text":"這個修法的話反而會增加我們的安全風險跟成本負擔我認為我們應該要再繼續加速推動再生能源的發展提升能源效率才能夠去在確保供電穩定與環境保護的平衡之下才能實現永續的能源未來謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言那我們接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":6693.201,"end":6721.436,"text":"請林仁斌準備謝謝主席今天才參加的所謂學者專家有正面有反面我們都給予尊重我們當立法委員就是要反映民情反映社會大家社會大眾所需要河山場我們就講河山場因為河一河二現在已經停掉了我是屏東人我河山場我差不多去"},{"start":6723.424,"end":6748.872,"text":"六七座我想立法委員去河山場實際去看沒有人比我還多次的那我們河 恆春半島四個鄉鎮今天來了我們劉史金恆春鎮鎮長那他也親自來那我們在那邊做了多次的民調贊成河山研議的都高達75%以上"},{"start":6751.138,"end":6764.235,"text":"說好幾次喔然後他們鄉鎮長出來接受那個專訪也都持正面的態度我們河山場兩部機組一年的發電量差不多157億度到160億度"},{"start":6768.666,"end":6794.591,"text":"那每一度賣出來是3塊2左右那每一度的成本是0.8、0.9所以沒來沒去就替台電一年賺3、4百億了啊你給我講一講,你賣錢就發電然後呢,每一年跟另外一年要錢已經要了3千億電還是漲價漲4次我就一直搞不懂"},{"start":6795.939,"end":6815.22,"text":"為什麼一直要養這些再生業者然後他說成本越來越低現在一度還是四塊多五塊多六塊多不是越來越低因為馬英九八年再生能源的比例只有佔5%不到"},{"start":6817.182,"end":6840.38,"text":"蔡英文八年我們的再生能源的比例也是差不多8%所以再生能源怎麼弄 怎麼加就是有它的極限要到十幾%是不可能所以你的能源配比當然是核能發電是相當基礎電力以前三座核能電廠不很順嗎"},{"start":6844.144,"end":6855.675,"text":"河山場有發現過公安事件嗎每年的評比都是世界前五名那個小公安事件沒有核能本身的問題核爐子沒有問題啦"},{"start":6857.366,"end":6881.167,"text":"都是那些配電設備或颱風來,我屏東人我又不在關心屏東,我不是笑的然後一天到晚用石化,最高八十幾%都是用石化新南火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠等等等等我們屏東有夠衰啦,站不會保衰中南山脈的高度一直往下,就是延伸到仿寮再往下"},{"start":6882.523,"end":6909.388,"text":"整個所有的空屋都到泰晤潮州來義那邊就卡在那裡每天都是紙包一年365天將近300天是紙包所以我們那邊的人就要承受這些PM2.5 PM10 肺腺癌 心血管疾病 不孕症 什麼都來了我們在那邊我就常常在想說要不要去圍大林發電廠帶鄉親去圍"},{"start":6912.379,"end":6934.527,"text":"這是事實啊我們學者專家講什麼我們都尊重但是我要把事實給大家看川普總統一上台就說光電不要用什麼用石化用核能川普不就笑了我們這邊的人每一個學者專家都是第一等聰明的日本的核電廠一個一個又恢復為什麼他們配筆受不了嘛"},{"start":6938.26,"end":6951.864,"text":"所以他們的海嘯之後,他們全部關掉,現在一家一家恢復了。那光電,我們的經濟部長突發奇想,說要去禮宋島種電,然後海底電纜送到八旦島,然後從恆春上來,然後進入河山廠的配電系統。我問河山廠廠長,我說是可行嗎?他說可行。"},{"start":6961.96,"end":6990.196,"text":"但是我們經濟部長說一坨電不足五坨結果昨天 前天又改口了所以那個電纜送不過來因為巴士海峽最深的地方兩千多公尺所以那個海底電纜的困難度非常高那昨天就說那不就用能源船載過來那在能源船載的成本就要五塊五一度所以喔 我不說的啦只是參考用"},{"start":6992.011,"end":7009.982,"text":"從菲律賓、李宋島種太陽能光電板已經有台灣的能源廠商跑去那邊做了要開始啦全世界光電板拉最長的是新加坡它在澳洲在PERS那邊博士那邊做光電"},{"start":7011.175,"end":7038.761,"text":"那把海底電纜送到新加坡送了三千多公里這是全世界最誇張的那他的能源耗損一K40幾%那新加坡因為地小人稠所以他沒有辦法光電只好跑到澳洲大英國寫的國家所以這樣繞過來他們值不值得我不知道啦他們自己去算所以我在這邊跟大家報告我們希望"},{"start":7040.336,"end":7050.182,"text":"我們的光電越來越多然後把整個人家說國破三合在那我們現在是國債三合破"},{"start":7051.124,"end":7074.557,"text":"每一個光電廠都是用粉泥土那個土地將來要護原都是極度的困難所以我們看了都是整個環境破壞成這個樣子我們覺得很荒唐台灣還有這個能力去破壞山林整個延山公路要砍20萬棵樹然後要做光電板"},{"start":7076.191,"end":7083.418,"text":"這個我們所有的環保單位好像沒有人出來抗爭我又去抗爭三次所以我要跟大家報告事實跟理想是有差距台灣這個基礎能源要怎麼做那燃氣十幾部機組等著要上來"},{"start":7097.113,"end":7117.561,"text":"但是三接四接都還沒有完成四接還要等到2030年所以我們的基礎電力當然核能是最好而且最穩固等到打仗的時候在馬英九時代曾經曾經颱風兩個颱風來造成整個瓦斯船進不來台灣斷氣"},{"start":7124.502,"end":7148.754,"text":"八天 我們的最大 現在是十一天所以跟大家報告 大家都要多方考量那這個法案要不要修或者一定要修 大家共同來參加意見以上 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言那我們接下來請林仁斌副教授發言邱碧英副秘書長準備 謝謝"},{"start":7156.509,"end":7184.56,"text":"主席各位先進我是林仁斌很高興受到立院黨團的邀請來這邊做簡單的報告核能發電雖然是能源的議題但是它牽涉到核武的擴散災變的風險還有核廢料的處理還有龐大資金的問題所以它事實上也不是一個單純的能源問題"},{"start":7186.485,"end":7212.864,"text":"那台灣現在的核電廠的現狀如表所示那最近中研院蕭新華老師的民調顯示了竟然還有八成的民眾不曉得事實上在去年一整年核電佔我們發電的比例已經不到10%今年剩下的核三廠二號機"},{"start":7215.598,"end":7239.359,"text":"也只有3到4%的電量所以核電沒有的核電事實上就經濟部的資料來看我們也沒有缺電好那核電廠的運作當然過程當中台灣很幸運天佑台灣所以縱使有大小事故但是目前來看"},{"start":7240.526,"end":7262.273,"text":"也沒有發生重大的事情所以我每次只要站上這個台上我就要感謝台電參與核電廠運作這四五十年來還有核安會的管制人員要表達我最深的謝意所以在我們今年5月17號核三廠二號機"},{"start":7265.634,"end":7289.313,"text":"順利的安全停機之後那台灣就很自然、順然、合法、合治的成為亞洲第一個承用核電而能廢核的國家這個是受到亞洲各種跟世界的這個矚目為什麼我們會不再發展核電也許很多人都已經遺忘"},{"start":7290.919,"end":7317.801,"text":"今年是日本福島核災發生的14週年日本的福島核災敲醒了台灣知道核能的安全並沒法保障所以台灣跟日本同處於地震帶類似的複合式災難如果發生在台灣地狹人仇的台灣那後果將不堪設想甚至導致台灣的滅亡"},{"start":7320.035,"end":7347.021,"text":"所以這種狀況並沒有改變核電在台灣的安全堪慮核廢的命題更是難解所以經過了數十年的論辯我們才決定不再發展核電也才有現在的2025核電的歸零開始有了民進黨政府2016年開始的減煤增氣展綠非核的能源轉型"},{"start":7348.983,"end":7374.429,"text":"現在我們所討論的這些修法我們現行的法令都是參照國際核能管制的一些規範定的是為了要確保核能安全定定的制度任意的修改法條不但破壞了核安法制的規範的嚴謹性也會提高核電發生的機率"},{"start":7376.345,"end":7391.855,"text":"特別是這些運轉已經40多年的老舊電廠當初都是為了發展核武而建並沒有經過詳細的地質調查環境影響的評估就設置如果要繼續運轉一定要經過很多詳實的調查"},{"start":7394.298,"end":7409.167,"text":"那從剛剛的報告都曉得目前的這些核電廠問題重重內部的運作還有地底下的斷層所以事實上是沒辦法承受類似像福島核災這樣子的衝擊更嚴重的是"},{"start":7412.54,"end":7439.082,"text":"根據Nature的研究全球最危險的三座核電廠台灣就佔了兩座核一核二在翻圓30公里內人口數就高達五六百萬這也是為什麼我們要不再發展核電的原因在這樣子的一個狀態之下假設修法通過相信行政院也不敢貿然言議"},{"start":7441.147,"end":7465.574,"text":"所以台灣應該做的是早日告別核電而不是擁抱老舊的核電廠事實上這些核電也不屬於國際供應鏈所承諾RA100的再生能源所以核電是解決氣候變遷的萬靈丹嗎根據IEA的這個預估剛剛謝會長有提到到2050年再生能源的比例是89%"},{"start":7467.264,"end":7491.753,"text":"核電只有8%所以核電根本不是減碳的主要能源雖然核電是比火力發電的二氧化碳排放少但是鈾礦開採燃料的提煉電廠的興建到整個核廢料處理整體的排放量還是比再生能源多得多所以台灣要做的是發展再生能源"},{"start":7493.151,"end":7517.09,"text":"那沒有核電就會缺電嗎?從經濟部的資料,未來電力的供給是無虞的剛剛經濟部次長也做了相關的表述那台灣核三廠一號機、二號機在10月21號停機41天大修的過程當中備載容量都可以維持在一定的水準那更是提供了非核家園不缺電的實證"},{"start":7520.492,"end":7540.226,"text":"再來我要強調的是有些人是以能源安全的理由認為核電才能因應外敵的封鎖事實上核電也是進口的能源建立本土多元分散的再生能源才能夠確保台灣的能源自主和能源的安全"},{"start":7541.067,"end":7563.943,"text":"在全世界的兩百多個國家裡頭用核電的只有三十幾個也就是說絕大多數的國家並沒有使用核電比我們經濟還好或一樣的也很多沒有用核電所以台灣要成為非核家園絕對不是特例在COP28 COS29所得到的行動共識也是一樣"},{"start":7564.924,"end":7591.866,"text":"要使再生能源變成容量的三倍全球能源效率要增加目前兩倍這是為什麼因為發展核電沒辦法解決這些問題還會造成核子事故的一些影響從此前昨天已經秀出核電的優點不過那些都不是核電有主要的一個缺點"},{"start":7593.13,"end":7611.004,"text":"這些資料不管是現在參討的SMR或者是新型的反應器都有上述的缺點核電不是永續再生的能源核電不是無碳的能源核廢料沒辦法處理會成為大家的負擔"},{"start":7613.137,"end":7634.985,"text":"沒辦法保證核電的安全核電廠不是便宜的能源他的興建跟廚藝的成本都非常的高再來核工業的發展也是有違世界的和平會讓大家遭受核武的威脅永和者大概不患無幾個觀點缺電大漲價以廢發電"},{"start":7641.801,"end":7659.671,"text":"國土摧殘再來就是這個種種永和的思想裡頭這些雖然使得大家開始有一點波動但是這個相關的論述大家都可以看到這些破除相關母儀師的這個論述好那"},{"start":7665.356,"end":7693.159,"text":"民進黨政府的人員轉型事實上一直走在對的路上所以走對的路一直走做對的事要持續做但我在這裡的表述也是希望所有的政黨政治的工作者都應該站在人民的這一邊所有政黨政治的工作者都應該站在人民這一邊以上 謝謝好 謝謝林仁斌副教授的發言那我們接下來有請邱碧英副秘書長發言 謝謝"},{"start":7703.158,"end":7730.225,"text":"朝委還有各位在場的這個先進貴賓大家早安我是中華民國全國工業總會副秘書長邱碧英我想近臨轉型是國際趨勢但是相較於歐盟國家他們可以互聯電網互相買賣電力那台灣呢受制於海島型的獨立電網結構電力需要自給自足所以我們一直認為核能是非常好的"},{"start":7731.125,"end":7754.252,"text":"这个积载电力因为它有稳定高效价钱合理的优势那根据台电官网我昨天看了一下啊昨天下午两点钟的时候我们火力发电的占比是差不多81.84接近82那其他不管是再生能源呢大概totally大概只有11不到12左右"},{"start":7755.032,"end":7782.159,"text":"所以從上面的數據就可以知道為什麼中南部的空污越來越嚴重尤其是台中的天空以前台中曾經被國人譽為最適合居住的城市因為晴空萬里不缺水但是現在藍天白雲成為絕響我們非常同意和安的重要但是我們更應該重視空污對國人健康損傷的現在進行性"},{"start":7785.789,"end":7802.384,"text":"我们都知道美国加拿大日本韩国都支持在2050年核能可以成为2030年三倍就刚刚叶教授所提到这样一个核能倡议那我们因为基于非核家园的政策所以在5月的时候会全部归零"},{"start":7803.064,"end":7818.121,"text":"在电源开发不易的情况下电从哪里来如果再生能源无法如期达到目标未来如何确保稳定供电无虞以及面对2050年的净零碳排的挑战"},{"start":7819.042,"end":7838.042,"text":"这个即便是不断的调涨电价也没有办法解决电力供需失衡的问题国际原子能总署报告说过去50年来核电减少大约550亿吨的碳排放相当于全球一整年能源相关二氧化碳的排碳量的两倍"},{"start":7839.504,"end":7866.321,"text":"因此延长现在的核能厂的运转连线是最有效的减碳措施国外的学者也曾经提到在安全无虞的状况下延长现有的核电连线是减碳最有效方法之一根据美国核管会的资料截至2024年5月美国有96座反应炉通过延长使用执照审查"},{"start":7867.222,"end":7883.383,"text":"可以使用到60年其中有22座又再次提研译的申请如果通过可以延长到80年那国内有多位著名的核子工程的学者也表示核子反应炉的研译技术并不困难了"},{"start":7884.551,"end":7911.743,"text":"因此要让台电的系统尽快脱离电力不足的泥烙满足国际社会对于减碳的要求以及达到2050年净零摊牌的目标所有能源的来源包括蓝煤 蓝气 再生能源以及核能跟氢能都应该要列入考量而且规划最适合最适切的能源发电结构"},{"start":7912.623,"end":7923.237,"text":"因此重新檢視能源配比跟提供穩定的電力我想穩定非常重要不是有沒有電的問題是目前政府最需要迫切解決的問題"},{"start":7926.944,"end":7946.805,"text":"大家也都听过美国为了要发展半导体产业AI产业跟电动车产业导致用电倍增我想我们情况也是一样所以美国政府担心供电不足所以不只希望境内的核电厂研议还考虑新增核电机组"},{"start":7947.586,"end":7975.166,"text":"那我们也知道其实赖总统在推的五大信赖产业里面不管是半导体或是人工智能的AI产业都需要庞大的电力支引尤其是半导体产业积极扩敞而且它建厂的速度比原来的还要快用电的比重也会更大我想可能2.5都是不够的它的成长尤其当你的基础越来就是你的前面的母数越来越高的时候"},{"start":7976.147,"end":7994.856,"text":"那在这样的情况下这么高的用电需求台湾供电能不能应付政府需要审慎的评估跟考量跟规划从目前整体的电源开发方案来看产业界对于未来稳定供电充满疑虑"},{"start":7996.721,"end":8016.533,"text":"大家都知道台灣以出口為導向在面臨美國歐盟關稅壁壘還有貿易保護的情況之下還有大陸低價競爭的挑戰之下可以說前有狼後有虎所以呢請不要跟我們說這個不要那個不行也不用告訴我們你們應該要提升產業競爭力或是做"},{"start":8020.115,"end":8021.556,"text":"以上是我的发言谢谢大家"},{"start":8051.908,"end":8056.992,"text":"謝謝邱副秘書長那我們接下來有請謝榮介委員發言主席各位學者專家"},{"start":8081.206,"end":8101.863,"text":"各位先生 大家早安這婚姻的問題啊 看到台灣有很多人有的人是用非婚姻加恆的 還是因為他的信念這種偉大的信仰 我個人是非常非常地敬佩"},{"start":8103.257,"end":8123.704,"text":"有的人認為推動婦人可以改善台灣的未來,這我感覺非常有信心我來自南台灣的台南,這是我的故鄉我的故鄉有美好的街坊,漂亮的土地"},{"start":8126.006,"end":8132.711,"text":"當然我也支持以火靈來過渡,來培養新的力量可是我們的執政黨沒有這樣做,它覺得火靈的加分比較對台灣比較適合我也來尊重所以看到它來開發太陽靈發展和風吹發展的時候"},{"start":8152.577,"end":8164.082,"text":"我個人也覺得這樣台灣有一點點希望因為畢竟我們的生活是要進步的那麼在進步的生活裡面每一年的用電的度數就不斷不斷地升高都要考慮身份 生活也要有身份吃一碗大麵 我對十五塊吃到現在五十五塊每一行都在企業這個中間如果聽到電競企業"},{"start":8184.07,"end":8204.348,"text":"人家說 不能企業吃麵的出息 到位就要到消費者的性固定我看到的是 我的土地的米片海米的台北的這個母親 就親像卡車旁邊大一塊一塊的沙龍髮絲一樣你去到我的故鄉台南去看 你的腦袋也會死過去我們所看到的"},{"start":8211.476,"end":8214.517,"text":"那個海浪山 那個天際山 以及這麼漂亮的山峰 土地為什麼今天你看起來 因為太陽能夠發展如果民眾能夠解決臺灣的問題 我也要忍耐一下可是不是這樣 因為有太多狡猾 因為地形的犯罪我簡單在這裡跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":8243.544,"end":8262.811,"text":"世界太陽能發展的新聞出來的介紹在中國大陸的一度電差不多在一公里至一公里所以剛才有人說太陽能這麼小我相信在印度一度電只有一公里至一公里的代表在美國一度電是一公里至三公里"},{"start":8269.744,"end":8273.566,"text":"如果在內地說,一坨太陽磷是2.4元2.6元日本有比較貴的,也是2.6元3.3元而已我們台灣,一坨要5元這裏面有更高的衣顏,還有我們地形的限制所以現年從這裡看起來,我們是沒辦法發展到2.4元的太陽磷"},{"start":8299.189,"end":8301.129,"text":"這是對我們一個先天不足所以大家都要共同努力沒有輪到一個角度你看到這個太陽能公司成立主本業新代表十萬經過四年五年後主本業新代表一百千萬後五億的現在看基礎 內容看一看 我看得很清楚"},{"start":8329.864,"end":8336.046,"text":"原來是犧牲我們無親台大犧牲人民的血汗漂亮的屋檐說好做力量發電但是落地的地比較粗糙在我們的土地下也有它的大街這種太陽林我認可不來有人說在林 福林不是最瘦的"},{"start":8359.636,"end":8363.418,"text":"福林發電不是最便宜的,但是它是比較便宜的但是在台灣它是最便宜的,就要利用土產你看我去南台南,到英安、高考、那邊發電機在做,發電太熱了"},{"start":8385.319,"end":8390.821,"text":"你只要自行車站在旁邊買一包粉凍來你平常吃的阿嬤嘛你這個白色的社群社會我們老外把他吊在那裡不用半點鐘 一地一地 一點一點 阿魯士有羞嗎 頭痛羞啊各位在這裡說 正確沒有絕對的對 沒有絕對的不對"},{"start":8415.367,"end":8417.088,"text":"要怎麼讓人民便利我請教中間的專家我們台灣的超級電腦的勝率現在世界排名如何我們要怎麼發展 他說很壞為什麼 電力沒問題啊沒電 要怎麼有超級電腦沒超級電腦 要怎麼有AI這是公安的問題啊"},{"start":8447.045,"end":8453.747,"text":"我們的工廠要怎麼發電 每天都要看美國大的 看我買什麼的 要贏什麼這就是國安的問題尤其我們城市 它說必要的時候 我們的機動負擔所以今天你這個手法就是要滿足它必要的時候今天如果沒有超情 保守 法律沒有修改"},{"start":8474.01,"end":8478.581,"text":"萬一必要的時候 你我我們 大家就要眼睛睜睜 人最重要的不知道要怎麼應對"},{"start":8482.964,"end":8506.253,"text":"全世界包括日本三一一受到這麼大的傷害傳播不斷地被停止 到今天重啟傳播不再新建 不再新建美國也一樣 澳洲也一樣如果台灣 例外各位學者 各位專家 各位先進我們沒辦法超前部署"},{"start":8507.492,"end":8512.333,"text":"為我們的家孫保留擔保和重新選定的空間我們不用去做任何的決定但是這個法令如果沒有先把酒醃起來像現在萬一受到壓力還要重啟恐怕會來不及啦所以朝廷保守不一定要安全"},{"start":8536.014,"end":8552.771,"text":"不是沒有安全不行啦但是 留給你我大家阿伯 人家說 等你退也就留三千年讓我們大家有淡泊和悲傷的空間讓我們的家屬有淡泊和悲傷的空間 酸澀的空間讓我們的母親在內有淡泊和幸福 純粹的空間謝謝"},{"start":8563.171,"end":8569.654,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的發言我們接下來有請柯智恩委員發言高明智教授準備謝謝"},{"start":8575.055,"end":8581.018,"text":"謝謝莊委也感謝今天來到我們現場所有的學者專家我想我們今天坐在這個地方當我是代表背後是國民黨的委員的時候大家都知道我們的立場就誠如我們現在所有的學者專家有些是民進黨委員請來有些是國民黨委員所請來的當你們坐在這個地方的時候呢大家就知道你們誰是永和誰是廢和"},{"start":8600.288,"end":8619.987,"text":"这就是我们今天讨论这件事情最大的问题我们的意识形态其实是往往高于我们专业的一个讨论那我们今天就特别来看看到底核能是不是我们其中的一个选项我必须要说台湾这片美丽的土地我们大家都有权要把它维护"},{"start":8620.527,"end":8630.256,"text":"所以安全絕對是高於一切這一點是前提我們要先完全來確定的不論是說我們要廢核或是我們擁核好像把這個安全問題大家都要在這邊政變這是毫無疑問安全是我們第一首要需要守護的"},{"start":8638.584,"end":8660.902,"text":"那我们就来看看到底核能的选项会不会是我们未来台湾的一个趋势每个人都期待目前来说全世界的一个新纪元的开始的时候呢其实把新的核能当作是一种选项那当然我也聆听到非常多的学者认为肺核也是让台湾在亚洲当中是一个可以被关注的一个焦点"},{"start":8661.883,"end":8687.246,"text":"但是呢我还是要提出来美国已经是把这个能源当作是国安战略的问题的时候那这已经不是牵涉到我们要不要用核电这样的一个问题所以说呢我们今天要特别提到特别是我们这一次的赖总统或是卓院长现实淡淡的告诉我们新的核能可以是一个讨论的一个空间但是它需要更多的社会的一个对话"},{"start":8687.907,"end":8693.59,"text":"那聽君一席一話就如一席話因為講了也還是那麼一席話到底我們社會的一個對話到底在哪裡現在只要把核能問題排在一起大家就會質問核廢料該怎麼樣的處理台灣的斷層該怎麼樣的處理全世界有很多人都使用核能他們為什麼沒有提出核廢料問題因為這是執政黨該解決的"},{"start":8713.24,"end":8734.026,"text":"所以执政党今天坐在这个地方就是要告诉我们你的能源政策倒就把我们带到什么地方去当你开启了新核能可能是未来的选项的时候你有没有告诉我们未来你可以做的事情是什么而不是只有一个社会对话让我们蓝绿两边的学者到现在目前为止还是没有一个交叉点大家从过去到现在"},{"start":8736.627,"end":8743.412,"text":"都是互相在永合 肺合當中不斷地去擴大彼此之間的優缺點但是焦點到底在哪裡我們先來說一下好了當我們問起來我們現在目前為止台電是不是在規劃撤裁核能發電處的時候左院長告訴我 沒有我們不是撤裁只是動態地評估組織的型態適度地配備人力這跟撤裁有什麼兩樣"},{"start":8761.664,"end":8777.988,"text":"现在目前有非常多核电的一个专业人士告诉他说这个东西被测材之后他们只能去看管核废料这不是我说的这是反映出很多专业人力的一个担忧当我们看到教育部留学的奖学金的时候完全看不到核工的影子"},{"start":8778.468,"end":8806.988,"text":"当教育部完全放弃合共人才的时候你今天告诉我新核能可能是一个选项都没有这些人才的时候你如何告诉我在上有非常多清大合共系的教授或者是过去曾经从这个系所毕业的人你们的专业目前来说完全是已经完全断层的对过去你们所付出的这个心力包括过去在台电核电厂里面付出心力的人你难道不觉得非常的有一点的唏嘘的感觉吗"},{"start":8808.249,"end":8824.887,"text":"所以说我们今天讨论这个问题的时候我们再来看一下非核家运的推动从2019年第四次会议上就有共同推动中期暂时储存的设施在2020年第五次会议当中要求台电提出选址的原则五年过去了"},{"start":8825.687,"end":8834.293,"text":"債政府也上台了不僅中期的儲存場遙遙無期非核的小組更是超過四年沒有開會你告訴我全部這些問題你都只能留給社會對話來涵蓋一切嗎所以呢永和到底有沒有什麼樣的待遇代價我們還沒有遇到非核的這個苦果我們已經嘗到但是我必須要說安全還是我們的考量"},{"start":8851.005,"end":8868.665,"text":"我只是在说每一次问到这个问题呢问到我们电费的问题每个人都提到这个部分但是呢永远是把它推给国际燃料价格电价过低欧乌战争之后基本上国际原油的材料价格已经是回稳的这已经不是一个例子了"},{"start":8869.105,"end":8874.652,"text":"燃料支出的成本大幅下降到1130億但是我們購電的成本已達到3095億這個是一個事實當然我們不能忽略我們的安全但是我們未來整個經濟的一個發展我覺得這個部分裡面完全歸咎歸咎於台電"},{"start":8887.947,"end":8906.739,"text":"每一次都在期求我们能够拨出1000亿但是台电的自发的费用就跟购电的费用来说是不成比例的你用电越多你购电越多台电的亏损就越大不是每年拨补1000亿2000亿就有办法解决的那我们的政府在面对这样问题的时候"},{"start":8907.159,"end":8932.578,"text":"你为什么只丢出一个社会的共识有可能讨论但是你讨论的空间在哪里让得我们今天坐在这个地方蓝绿的学者还是必须在这个地方争辩到底核能好或是不好所以一个政策的拟定很重要就像你认为光电光电的光电板难道所带给环境的污染你没有考虑过吗30年40年之后你所留下来的这个所谓的污染"},{"start":8932.998,"end":8949.012,"text":"难道会比维和废掉还要更不严重吗但是你已经锁定的再生能源是我们的发展我们也完全同意啊可是呢你对于所影响的这个环境你影响农民里面大量的使用废掉的光电板的这部分难道你没有考虑过吗"},{"start":8949.372,"end":8974.925,"text":"所以一个政策你如果制定完毕之后接下来我们该怎么讨论核的安全我们该怎么讨论未来的核废料怎么分来讨论你一个目标设定完之后你就有后续的方法现在完全就是摆烂的一个态度就是我们今天坐在这个地方我必须要说开了多少次的会议大家还是各自言而治然后呢最后你们用强行通过的方法然后制造社会更多的纷乱"},{"start":8975.385,"end":8983.868,"text":"那你就大膽的告訴我們嘛以後完全沒有核的這個可能你為什麼要開一個空間讓大家覺得新式的核能可以符合社會的一個趨勢然後呢嘎然而止然後讓大家繼續再繼續吵架那這樣有任何的意義嗎所以在安全的原則在永續的原則之下面我們是一個很卑微的祈求我們政府單位拿出一點 guts"},{"start":8997.833,"end":9005.438,"text":"告訴我們你們真正覺得符合世界的趨勢在安全的趨勢之下不要永遠就告訴我每次早一提出來你就告訴我核廢料擺你家嗎核廢料該怎麼樣你先把忠誠的核廢料儲存的這個地方選子的目的不斷地告訴我們然後告訴我們一堆抗爭然後你就兩手一攤丟給社會共識就是社會沒有共識才需要你政府站出來如果社會有共識的話我還要你政府幹什麼"},{"start":9023.809,"end":9043.292,"text":"这就是我们今天非常沉重的一个呼吁不要从我第九任当立委到现在为止我还是要讨论同一个问题然后到最后到底要不要演绎四十年六十年到最后就付诸于蓝绿之后再来一个对决这绝对不是一个真的有为政府该给放给我们人民该做的一件事情谢谢"},{"start":9046.298,"end":9054.053,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員的發言那我們接下來有請高明志清大科技法律研究所教授高教授發言"},{"start":9058.803,"end":9082.746,"text":"委員以及各位與會的先進大家早安然後今天很高興能夠有這個機會受邀來這裡然後讓我來針對這一題然後我其實今天一直聽到現在啦我覺得說大家的這個討論其實比較著重在其實還是回到傳統的反核啊或者或者永和的這個辯論然後我是把它拉高到一個我自己常年來觀察這個議題的角度特別是"},{"start":9083.266,"end":9098.841,"text":"回到法律面然後來探討說這個非核家園跟這個核電演繹的這兩件事情其實是可以一起來看的然後其實多年來我觀察這個議題很久了啦可是很多大部分其實都是在政策面跟環境面的討論然後比較少法律面的或幾乎沒有"},{"start":9099.241,"end":9127.11,"text":"所以我今天其實是還蠻樂見說法務部竟然難得在這樣的場合其實可以發言然後我簡單的心得就發現到很好玩的地方是編碼時期一路以來在推動非核交易的密度其實是遠大於菜的然後現在很樂見其實在目前這個階段其實有這麼多的法案百家爭鳴我覺得非常不錯然後至於我為什麼會來談這個主題其實我2000年的時候那時候我還是碩士班研究生我就已經開始"},{"start":9128.07,"end":9141.442,"text":"研擬一個可能大家很多人都沒有聽過的法案叫核能電廠提前處理條例的草案然後所以我常年來其實我每十年就會寫一篇文章來談這個非核家園的回顧這樣然後所以我原則上應該是這一題我看了滿久的"},{"start":9143.624,"end":9172.361,"text":"然後甚至英文的我還把台灣的很多的議題介紹到國際上面然後大家說我你們有看到我特別highlight一個就是說我覺得我們台灣我一直覺得我們台灣雖然說沒有趕上其他國家在做這個非核家園可是我們或許有一個可以是第一個叫做第一個不負責任的非核家園這是一個我自己的觀察後面會再跟大家分享為什麼然後一開始其實回到大家在談非核家園反核就是核電反國外的問題其實"},{"start":9174.402,"end":9201.533,"text":"從我法律觀點可能今天會提到蠻多讓大家蠻震驚的資訊第一個資訊就是我去回顧長久以來從2001年2月13號提出的朝野共識的非核家園一路到現在我做了盤查針對重要的核電議題的盤查我發現到其實沒有一個版本是一樣的比如說曾經有一個版本的非核家園在扁政府的後期的非核家園甚至覺得合適要興建到重啟"},{"start":9202.873,"end":9221.804,"text":"他覺得是非核家園所以有很多非核家園概念大家其實一直都以為是然後這裡這一頁其實非常重要就是常見的誤解大家都以為環境基本法的非核家園就是核電只能運轉40年其實從來沒有我把歷史文件的立法說明欄找出來立法說明欄"},{"start":9223.525,"end":9249.883,"text":"完全沒有提到非核家園是什麼他談的其實只是輻射防護啊然後電磁波這些有利輻射的健康影響完全沒有提到非核家園非常的有趣然後然後所以就變成說其實我會去看啦其實非核家園假如一個國家要推非核家園其實它有蠻多元素當然說核心的元素都是在處理既有興建中興建核電廠的命運然後附水才會處理像今天談很多的這個總體能源工序這個問題其實是已經到"},{"start":9250.623,"end":9275.364,"text":"很後面的然後甚至我們曾經台灣有一個版本還會談反核武擴散的這個部分可是這都是很附屬的核心其實在處理既有的相關的電廠興建中未來的然後所以就變成說它的概念內涵大概是長蠻多圈的可是當然說非核合法案的核心當然是要處理既有電廠的命運也包括說今天我們要談核能研議的也是在談既有電廠的命運那都是其實是那個什麼說爭論的焦點這樣"},{"start":9277.245,"end":9296.969,"text":"然後其實台灣有趣的地方是台灣其實迄今沒有任何法律在處理非核家園的核心議題本來有是電業法的95條可是它被公投否決掉了所以其實就沒有了所以其實我這一頁其實也要跟大家再度強調的台灣其實從來沒有什麼非核家園台灣從來的都是正常核電家園核電本來就運轉40年我們也沒有提早"},{"start":9304.231,"end":9323.223,"text":"因為世界各國非核佳育其實都是提早的所以我要講正常國家到底是怎麼對付非核佳育其實就兩件事公投或民意基礎有公投的國家會以公投沒有公投的國家像德國德國最近大家都說他要回來了嘛因為民意支持很了然後另外很重要要有特殊的法案"},{"start":9324.063,"end":9348.757,"text":"處理核電的套牢成本就是核四的套牢三千億然後比如說或者說因為你核電要提早要怎麼說提前除役的時候會面臨你要負責任的去處理高低放的法案所以其實像很大部分國家其實都會處理像德國就有兩個版本的草案在處理那台灣的非核很有趣是完全沒有公投或民意基礎"},{"start":9349.827,"end":9368.05,"text":"因為公投已經被推翻了可是在國外其實你要推翻你要說這個2018年年底的公投無效你不能說它只有兩年效力而是你要有下一個反核的公投把它推翻掉可是完全沒有然後第二個民調其實現在市面上的民調其實一面倒的幾乎都支持核電嘛"},{"start":9368.45,"end":9389.675,"text":"所以其實台灣是沒有這個基礎的那德國負責任的非橫向政府大概做什麼他們避免以美養綠所以他們有無媒家園的時程2038年而且他們政府絕對不會朗朗和後端做不到很難處理沒有廁所沒有廁所這一類的而是認真面對因為他們提出兩個版本草案然後德國其實最重要的地方是在這邊"},{"start":9390.515,"end":9409.246,"text":"他們會發展便宜的再生能源不會像台灣只發展貴的再生能源然後最後面這塊很重要就是說他不會拿全民的錢來補貼台電補貼電力公司他不會拿全民的甚至未來我們下一步要用全體股民的錢股市股民的錢然後來讓中鋼這些產業承擔"},{"start":9412.928,"end":9434.893,"text":"承擔這個非核的成本這是非常不可思議的所以我們那至於法律面上我簡單的說就是我們台灣很可惜啦我們是從正常的法治國家到這幾年變成落後的法治國因為其實我們早期其實在這個Fukushima之後其實大量的非核法案特別是在野黨草野都有然後在野黨非常多版本可是我們最近之後其實幾乎都沒有"},{"start":9435.333,"end":9463.498,"text":"然後其實是有好好機會處理非核議題啦可是就變成說因為陳其邁委員其實之前曾經提出過所以我這邊其實在這一呼就是說其實要合法的終結核電的命運其實我歡迎說因為我今天看到那個提案的版本幾乎都是在野黨我其實建立行政院版或者說在座的環團朋友們就參考我的法條你們也提一個非核法案大家來對決看看到底誰過吧然後條文都幫你們寫好了你們就參考這一頁就好"},{"start":9464.818,"end":9482.243,"text":"好 然後所以就變成我們發現說為什麼台灣是一個不負責任的因為我們不負責任不尊重民意不尊重法治甚至還要準備吸供全台灣股民的錢這是一個非常不可思議的非核駕馭然後最後我這邊要簡單給大家看就是說台灣跨沒有核電的樣子是什麼樣子"},{"start":9484.689,"end":9494.109,"text":"這個是2023年的其實你可以看到台灣的電力排濫係數就已經非常高而且還是有三個月核三的一號機的時候所以你都可以看到美國"},{"start":9496.029,"end":9514.179,"text":"其實表現都比德國跟南韓好你們看這張圖然後這張圖可以看到嚴重性就是全世界高碳電力的國家台灣排第十一名然後排在前面的全部都是我們傳統覺得可能不是那麼進步不是那麼製造業大國的落後國家所以這個詞有點偏執"},{"start":9515.703,"end":9544.679,"text":"所以其實我會覺得說所以從近年的角度其實變成說我們希望說還是要讓核電回歸或者說讓大家有一個正常的討論然後我很高興說今天有很多法案啦所以其實台灣終於又可以變成正常的法治國家好 謝謝各位好 謝謝高教授的發言那我們接下來有請林正元綠色公民行動聯盟的研究員林研究員發言待會徐益臻委員請準備"},{"start":9547.121,"end":9573.813,"text":"主席 各位委員 在場先請大家好我是綠色公民行動聯盟的研究員林鎮元很感謝立法院教育文化委員會給民間團體機會來到立法院表達我們的意見在本次公聽會開會之前我們收到了開會通知單以及討論提綱顯見本次的公聽會根本沒有要討論目前國民黨與民眾黨所提出來的九個不同版本的核子反應器設置管制法的修法草案也沒有要討論核電研議的安全與成本的問題也甚至是核廢料處置問題礙於時間有限"},{"start":9575.774,"end":9577.985,"text":"我在會議之前有提供我們的書面資料大家可以詳細閱讀"},{"start":9580.046,"end":9606.587,"text":"因此我的簡報今天在著重於釐清本次工廳會提綱重的問題首先我們必須澄清全世界沒有所謂的核能復興根據2024年世界核能產業報告指出全球的核能佔比持續在下降裝置容量也在下降新建核電廠的國家也在減少全球核能佔比從1996年的高峰17.5%下降至2023年全球核能只剩下9.1%全球的核能仍是在衰退的狀況"},{"start":9607.688,"end":9627.383,"text":"也因此在COP28當中更多的國家是願意支持再生能源擴展三倍核能三倍的這些聲明只是一個場外的倡議並非是COP的正式結論我們必須搞清楚什麼是正式結論什麼只是民間外面的倡議這樣子"},{"start":9629.628,"end":9645.162,"text":"再來是在提綱中也很關注美國的核電的發展這也是社會所關注的議題但事實上美國早就沒有大規模興建核電廠他們的基礎的平均年齡也是全世界最老的目前全世界的平均基礎年齡是31.4年可是美國是42.7年"},{"start":9649.125,"end":9670.716,"text":"在西二兩千年之後美國只有兩座新增的反應爐動工也就是位於喬治亞州的Vogue核電廠3號機及4號機原定於2016年及2017年完工但是工期延宕至2023年的7月及2024年的4月耗時15年以上兩部成本的機組從140億美元暴增到368.5億美元相當於1兆1917億新台幣成為全世界有史以來最貴的核電廠"},{"start":9677.759,"end":9692.875,"text":"也因此美國目前沒有任何在興建中的核電廠如此昂貴的核電廠台灣負擔得起嗎前面的產業界代表說要核電廠那一座6000億的核電廠你們負擔得起嗎接著我要談SMR的問題這也是大家很關注的問題"},{"start":9694.366,"end":9717.643,"text":"美國旗艦型SMR的計畫NewScale計畫原本與猶他州市政電力聯合系統簽訂了一個六部機組合約第一部機組原本要在2029年運轉其餘五座機組將於2030年運轉然而在2023年11月8日由於成本的暴增電力公司宣布解約NewScale也宣布終止該專案美國目前沒有任何在動工的SMR"},{"start":9718.263,"end":9739.795,"text":"根據美國經濟與金融分析研究所的研究指出NewScale的單位發電成本從2021年的58美元兆瓦時在2023年的1月增加至89美元兆瓦時若扣除美國政府的補貼其單位發電成本更高達119美元兆瓦時將是光電加上儲能系統的單位發電成本的5倍以上"},{"start":9740.495,"end":9749.984,"text":"更別提美國核管會前主委麥克法蘭的專業期刊他有經過通常審查的期刊指出SMR的核廢料將會是傳統反應爐的30倍連美國電力公司都不要的SMR台灣都嫌貴的SMR台灣的工商業界要引進嗎接著我要談日本的問題"},{"start":9762.642,"end":9787.683,"text":"日本的發展它根本還沒走出福島核災的影響在福島核災前日本有54座反應爐災後因為安全成本的跟這個安全包繩的提升有22座反應爐除以目前只有12座反應爐運轉中但是核能發電的占比從核災前的49%下降到目前只有5.6%日本政府今年2月所公布的能源基本計畫中所採取支持核電立場但是在其重啟的這個政策緩慢這個"},{"start":9789.204,"end":9810.551,"text":"政府所做的這個核電目標被批評不現實評估中甚至包含去年重啟審查中不合格因為下面有斷層而不合格的敦賀核電廠二號機以及在能登半島地震中受災的治賀核電廠一二號機以及延宕多年的博奇義與核電廠以及未完成的大間核電廠東電東通核電廠一號機刻意低估了核電建設中所遇到爭議與安全問題"},{"start":9811.652,"end":9816.078,"text":"韓國也是很多人說有核電台電就不會虧損但事實上就算韓國的核電佔比20%在2020年中也因為烏俄戰爭的影響能源成本的上升韓國電力公司的總負債已達1470億美元約等同於5.8兆新台幣"},{"start":9829.963,"end":9855.372,"text":"接著我們要談核電研議的一些問題我們曾聽很多永和人士說核電廠可以通過進行大修剪查出設備老化的問題這根本是內行人說外行話因為有許多的設備例如反應爐、壓力容器、鋼結構管道、電纜、鋼筋混凝土等是無法被更換的我們必須強調沒有任何的人造物是可以避免老化故障的其設備老化的風險在國際科學界中以欲光取勸來呈現越老的核電廠風險越高我在我的書面當中有非常明確地提出來"},{"start":9856.792,"end":9877.243,"text":"以上的風險,如果核電廠貿然研議,將會成為一個未保蛋,最後的這些風險將由人民來承擔。接著我要談核電研議的問題,核電研議的成本也不是永和人士說的那麼便宜,以美國加州魔鬼股為例,美國加州魔鬼股與台灣核生產有許多類似之處,例如軍衛吸入電器的產品,都運轉40年,都有兩部機組,都提供當地6%的電力,也面對著大斷層的威脅。"},{"start":9882.148,"end":9909.506,"text":"加州魔鬼谷的业主PG&E电力公司为研议所需的这些设备更新燃料的这些添购作业向加州已经申贷了14亿美元根据PG&E向加州公用事业委员会所提出的电价调涨的申请所提供的数据该电厂研议5年的成本是118亿美元像约等于3892亿新台币换算成每千度的成本是3331元到4321元之间绝非便宜的选项"},{"start":9910.347,"end":9919.601,"text":"目前美國在2009年到2025年間有23座核電廠因為成本的因素因為老化的因素提前除役"},{"start":9920.461,"end":9944.437,"text":"因為他們沒辦法再繼續負擔這些核電廠所以他們提前除役大家可以思考美國核電廠都那麼貴想要推銷核電廠的那些人動機為何今天我要談以國安理由這件事情去談核電廠是否應該保留大家可能都沒有都已經忘記在前兩年烏克蘭的札波羅核電廠甚至都已經被俄羅斯給攻擊轟炸飛彈甚至以距離那邊已經不遠了核電廠在戰爭中當然是會被攻擊的目標"},{"start":9945.97,"end":9965.957,"text":"接著我要談核廢料如果繼續運轉核電廠只會產生更多的核廢料在朗主席跟新北市長都曾經說過沒辦法處理核廢料就沒有資格使用核電目前高階核廢料的燃料房空間廚房空間已經已滿目前核一核二甚至它反應爐心中還有燃料棒低階核廢料還目前存放在各個廠區內跟蘭嶼也雖然有選址條例但卡關無法執行"},{"start":9967.225,"end":9974.054,"text":"如果沒辦法處理核廢料,核電就是不爭議的能源。因此我們主張,老舊核電廠在釐清核安疑慮之前,不應該研議。謝謝大家。"},{"start":9995.199,"end":10012.346,"text":"謝謝主席在座的各位專家學員大家好我想能源是近代文化的基石而且能源穩定的供應是國家持續發展的一個經濟命脈沒有電一切都將停擺那台灣的經濟奇蹟靠的是穩定的電力支持從半導體到高科技的產業從醫療設備到日常靠的是穩定的電力支撐"},{"start":10021.93,"end":10048.987,"text":"这些都离不开稳定的能源供应然而如今我们却面临一个残酷的事实就是台湾的电已经不够用了当半导体与AI产业扩增之后将进一步出现大量用电的需求根据112年度的全国电力资源供需报告113年到117年间全国用电需求的年平均成长率将达2.5%"},{"start":10051.608,"end":10073.638,"text":"至119年全国电力需求也比现在增加12到13%其中AI科技产业的电力需求更是呈现爆炸式的增长预估到117年将比112年成长8倍以上然而在这样的情况之下政府却仍然执迷于不切实际的能源政策"},{"start":10074.218,"end":10096.256,"text":"一方面高喊發展綠能一方面卻讓企業和民眾承受電價上漲供電吃緊的壓力綠能雖然是未來的發展方向但技術尚未完全成熟發電不穩定成本更是高昂根本沒有辦法取代機載電力我們不能再沉溺於理想我們必須要正視現實"},{"start":10098.197,"end":10118.362,"text":"台灣需要的是穩定的機載電力和電是其中一個選項台灣不能缺電而過去幾年來台灣的大停電的事件屢見不鮮從興達電廠事故到全台的大規模限電這些不僅僅是影響民生更嚴重的衝擊到企業對台灣的信心"},{"start":10119.802,"end":10143.45,"text":"針對近來台積電宣布擴大赴美投資一千億美元的這事件知名的半導體分析師陸行之更在臉書提到台積電擴大赴美台灣缺電可能是一個重要的考量之一這是一個令人震驚的警訊台積電是台灣的富庫 國神山象徵著我們的科技實力與經濟命脈"},{"start":10145.231,"end":10162.214,"text":"然而如果連台積電都擔心台電供電不穩甚至因此而加快海外的佈局我們還能夠假裝問題不存在嗎我們還能夠忽視積載電力不足的問題如何解決核電絕對是其中的一種方法"},{"start":10163.015,"end":10186.258,"text":"而且全世界都在重新擁抱核能只有台灣還在猶豫美國、加拿大、日本等22國已經在2023年底的聯合國氣候峰會共同發表聯合聲明承諾在2050年前讓全球的核能發電量增加三倍日本也已經通過了法案"},{"start":10187.359,"end":10208.918,"text":"將核電廠研議至60年而美國則有94座的這個核反應爐獲得研議的一個許可最高可以運轉到80年而比利時法國等國家也都採取類似的措施確保能源能夠穩定的供應反觀台灣政府就還在對核電做諸多的限制任由缺電的風險日據的加劇"},{"start":10211.46,"end":10218.347,"text":"而且今年的五月最後一座核電廠就要除役了這不僅僅是能源政策的錯誤更是對產業對人民生活的無情傷害有人擔心核廢料的問題這當然是需要謹慎處理的一個議題然而核廢料真的無法解決嗎"},{"start":10231.061,"end":10250.233,"text":"事實上全球已經有成熟的處理技術法國、芬蘭都已經建立生成地質處置設施DGR而美國、日本等國也都在推動先進的核燃料回收技術讓核廢料的體積跟毒性大幅的降低我們與其恐懼不如正視問題"},{"start":10251.934,"end":10276.036,"text":"好好的來去了解怎麼來積極解決這些問題台灣有智慧有能力有人才絕對可以思考我們怎麼樣來去建立符合台灣環境條件的核廢料處理機制而不是因業廢食讓核能成為禁忌的話題台灣需要穩定的電力跟需要合理的電價當綠能建置成本居高不下"},{"start":10277.057,"end":10292.978,"text":"燃氣發電要受國際能源價格的波動影響電價調漲又可能隨時停電這已經成為台灣民生跟企業界最大的隱憂甚至在台的歐美商日商也都多次警告高昂的電價跟缺電將讓台灣失去競爭力"},{"start":10295.581,"end":10308.17,"text":"甚至迫使企業將產線外移我們難道眼睜睜看著台灣的企業一間間的離開工作機會一個一個流失嗎我們難道要讓年輕人面對高房價高物價現在還要面對高電價嗎"},{"start":10310.02,"end":10336.809,"text":"如果我們今天不做出正確的選擇未來的台灣恐怕將不再是產業重鎮而是能源危機下的受害者從國際能源的供需趨勢來看核電 核能 能是重要的選項之一美國 歐洲 日本 韓國都在做核電廠研議的計畫而這次的修法就是要讓政府擁有更靈活的調節空間讓安全無虞的核電機組能夠繼續運轉避免能源供應失衡"},{"start":10339.83,"end":10368.61,"text":"台湾在全球的竞争中能够站稳脚步我们必须让政策回归理性让能源选择回归科学确保台湾不会因为这些短视近利的政策而陷入能源的困境核电演绎不是政治问题而是攸关台湾未来的生存问题是我们这一态必须负起的责任台湾不能缺点核能不能放弃这也是我们必须做出的选择"},{"start":10369.691,"end":10372.814,"text":"這樣我們現在就開始行動一起為台灣的未來而努力謝謝"},{"start":10387.964,"end":10415.229,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛一輪這樣子聽下來這個應該是從上一個會期其實我們都一直不斷地在討論就是延逸跟重啟的這樣子的一個問題上個會期其實我都已經有提到了這個藍白的版本從之前就一直說是執政黨錯誤的能源政策導致所以只要法規上說不行我就要用巨嬰式的修法把它修到可以為止但是我們剛剛其實聽了很多的專家學者"},{"start":10418.17,"end":10442.237,"text":"也特別提到當全世界的核能占比是全球目前都在下降當中連同日本從福島核災之後他們也在重新的考量究竟核電的存放的一些問題那當這個安全為首要我們跟日本是一樣的地處在所謂的地震的斷層的這樣子的一個重要的一個位置上面"},{"start":10442.997,"end":10458.617,"text":"到底安全大家把它放在哪裡只顧經濟不顧安全難道是我們要重啟核電最重要的一個這樣子的考量嗎如果這個考量沒有放在第一位為什麼又要重啟核電"},{"start":10459.838,"end":10473.576,"text":"那我再次的強調目前核三廠二號機是台灣最後一座運轉中的核電機組那也預計在五月要除役台灣的能源發展即將要邁入新的一個階段那剛剛有提到"},{"start":10476.32,"end":10495.214,"text":"福島核災之後其實老舊核電廠不研議曾經會是台灣的所有的共識包含民間包含我們中央那但是在過去這14年已經過去了國民黨的立場這個著是今非這14年來其實有很多的社會公民的意見"},{"start":10496.621,"end":10514.377,"text":"也為所謂的台灣的環境永續要付諸努力但是呢他們在去年這一整年一直不斷的在重提這個話題將把所有大家在為環境永續的努力全部一筆勾銷再次退回原點"},{"start":10515.558,"end":10530.018,"text":"那這次的這樣子的一個修法呢第一不但不尊重核安管制的一個作業第二也可以迴避了外界對於所謂的老舊核電廠的安全疑慮以及核能安全高放廠的"},{"start":10530.819,"end":10532.92,"text":"高放長紙的設計條例還沒有進展低放儲置的選紙的問題也還沒有突破所以我們怎麼樣能夠讓所謂的已經除役的合廠能夠再研議再重啟"},{"start":10548.027,"end":10562.207,"text":"我想藍白陣營不能把這樣子的一個政治責任以及對於台灣的核能的用電的安全轉諸到我們的下一代讓下一代去承擔這是非常不負責任的一個做法"},{"start":10563.983,"end":10592.602,"text":"講到所謂的老舊的核電廠是不是研議及就章你們有沒有削弱核安的一個機制根據現行的一個法規借領的核電廠必須在執照到期之前的5到15年要提出申請也就是目的要讓主管機關有充足的時間去確認安全無虞的狀況之下才能夠再來談是不是能夠研議但是我們看到以民眾黨的版本為例"},{"start":10594.023,"end":10597.707,"text":"原本呢5到15年的安全檢查被壓縮到只剩下1到6個月等於縮短了90%到98%的時間就算剛剛有人提到所謂的美國的核管會他們在累積多年研議審查經驗過後他們最新的審查的流程仍然需要"},{"start":10616.125,"end":10629.412,"text":"18個月就是一年半的時間我們急救艙的做法能夠這樣子玩這樣子的修法的遊戲嗎再來提到所謂的國民黨委員所提出的一個版本就是核電廠的運營的"},{"start":10631.873,"end":10649.21,"text":"這個年限跟安全的審查是毫無界限可言所以剛剛就像我講的這巨嬰式的修法法規上說不行我就把它修到我認為時間可以為止這是一種負責任的做法嗎另外再提到所謂的老舊核電廠的隱憂因為在這個月的6號核三廠的二號機其實發生了火警"},{"start":10654.955,"end":10676.862,"text":"那我想這個老舊的核電廠在安全的顧慮上其實也都需要我們大家來重視因為隨著所謂的機組設備的一個老化事故頻傳在這個時候要提到所謂的核電廠要演繹要重啟我們到底把安全放在哪裡"},{"start":10677.762,"end":10689.03,"text":"那不論是核電要處理還是要研議核廢料處理的一個問題到目前為止其實沒有一個人能夠說的準到目前為止其實大家是不是都還在迴避這樣的問題核一核二廠的乾式儲存"},{"start":10693.033,"end":10710.365,"text":"設置延宕了多年台電也坦言說這不是技術性的一個卡關合一廠拖了11年才獲核准合二廠則拖了9年才開始動工那麼乾式儲存設施呢算是一種過渡的一個方案並不是最終的處置廠"},{"start":10711.246,"end":10733.103,"text":"那研議將增加有更多的核廢料處理不了現有的一個問題所以我們是不是為下一代又埋下了不負責任的行為這樣子的一個修法的一個狀況那目前全國有九成的所謂的低放廢料仍然是放在所謂的核電廠跟蘭嶼部分的儲存庫的執照分別是在112年到116年之間要到期到底這些核廢料"},{"start":10739.548,"end":10765.725,"text":"要何去何從沒有人回答這個問題之前就要來討論所謂的核能核電廠是不是要重啟是不是要研議大家都覺得好像我們用核電會降低電費但是都沒有把很多的成本跟其他的重要的一個關鍵我舉例來說台電在2014年記得是2014年現在已經是2025年了"},{"start":10769.537,"end":10791.087,"text":"他們評估光是研議最少在2014年他們出估就需要580億而今11年過去了物價跟成本難道都不調整嗎都不用考慮嗎還不用再算3到5年的電廠體檢的一些支出所以大家不斷的在討論說因為電價要調漲"},{"start":10794.369,"end":10815.998,"text":"因為電價調漲我們要求民生會被影響所以這個經濟也會被影響所以我們要來重啟核電但是國民黨民眾黨他們沒有說的是總預算在台電的補助的部分你們刪了一千億啊這一千億"},{"start":10817.239,"end":10842.915,"text":"後來要來轉嫁把安全的問題丟給下一代要來強調核能要重啟這不是巨嬰 那什麼是巨嬰呢以上 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員的發言接下來我們有請游史金游鎮長 屏東縣恆春鎮的鎮長發言那待會有請劉守仁秘書長請準備"},{"start":10850.473,"end":10877.874,"text":"主席 焦佑娜 趙立群委員以及各位委員各位專家寫者 女士 先生各位媒體女士 先生們大家早安從早上我們昨天晚上就上來了一路風塵濮濮那到了今天早上我們進立法院以後就在這個公聽會裡面我們聽到"},{"start":10879.932,"end":10904.963,"text":"有很多專家寫者還有我們的一些民間的那個環保團體大家的論述啦我覺得啦安全一定是第一的啦我站在鄉村河山場現在在我們鄉村站到40幾年 50幾年了嘛我包括四港市的四港我現在要來報告跟各位報告就是說"},{"start":10906.664,"end":10920.412,"text":"河山廠在民國六十幾年開始施工一直到民國七十四年開始轉為電廠運轉在這段時間經過沒有鎖定的空間、沒有鎖定的空域當然就是經過我們所有的鄉親、我們鄉村所有的定民他們的宿客"},{"start":10931.189,"end":10940.675,"text":"因為河岸 河山 河電有問題 有安全顧慮所以站出來說一件事一直到現在已經發電40年了1號機也除役 2號機在5月17號就要除役了"},{"start":10950.254,"end":10965.783,"text":"在這個中間我們鄉村定民一直經過宿客我們也會宿客經過河山場因為說實在的河山場在我們鄉村和我們鄉村定民的相處內是非常融洽"},{"start":10968.664,"end":10988.97,"text":"不然怎麼讓我們了解到河岸因為畢竟我們那裡都比較不正確的人比較沒有特殊的所以地縮方面有比較經過河岸河山場的經營環境的經營之後我們河沿存地面的大家都有所了解到說"},{"start":10990.598,"end":11017.191,"text":"核能安全應該是處於設備已經是發展到可以用的時候呢可以說就是設備沒問題啦現在就是人管理的問題所以我們一直注重到這個管理的問題在核能發展處啦還有我們台電本行公民一直給我們教導啦有時候要教導說核能的安全到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":11018.211,"end":11030.306,"text":"所以我們慢慢地接受到進步前來40年何以河山場1號址除以河山場2號址及5號集結我們漸漸都贊成都接受鄉村店的名義就是接受"},{"start":11034.811,"end":11047.599,"text":"因為面臨到廚藝跟研議的問題嘛所以我們都有在討論到所以鄉村長 台北所內 台北都七星八星都贊成研議啦有人在說研議 那時候是因為在幕府年輕會"},{"start":11050.761,"end":11072.981,"text":"確實慕林經會在我們恆春鎮是一個很大的財源對於我們恆春的弱勢團體包括農漁民、教育都有很大的幫助要來感謝慕林經會所以慕林經會不是最大的問題我們在我們的輿論、我們的媒體也接觸到"},{"start":11077.093,"end":11097.009,"text":"核能 發電 電力是國家的一個經濟動力的來源所以在這個部分我們贊成說因為國家不能弱下來國家一定要強盛尤其是在這個時空時空背景裡面我們一定要更強所以我們一家"},{"start":11099.52,"end":11118.196,"text":"今天最主要就是要表示說一個設備它是安全的管理我們要強調的是管理把河山廠跟我們核能化電廠要來拜託他們在河山這麼安全就是你們管理優好的企業所以有真正"},{"start":11118.977,"end":11143.525,"text":"我們的鄉親會心動說 何能需要言語呢今天有介紹我們的專家寫者兩方面的論戰啦 我希望我們論戰會有結果到底言語或是廚藝 依你們的專家意見 依你們的學術經驗來做決定我們地方人士 當然我們會支持言語 但是我們會遵守"},{"start":11144.325,"end":11167.79,"text":"國家所決定因為畢竟我們都是同一個國家的一個人民所以非常高興今天有辦法來到立法院的公聽會來表達我們鄉村庭的定民的心願我們所重調的就是我們為了慕林經會支持園域我們是為了國家的安全國家的"},{"start":11168.71,"end":11175.516,"text":"雄壯來支持這個原例最後祝大家身體健康感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":11197.717,"end":11221.009,"text":"我們會議主席那各位專家先進大家早安那我是中華民國全國商業總會秘書長劉守仁那我在這邊代表本會有幾點發言第一個穩定供電那應被視為經濟競爭力的一個基礎前提那從產業界的角度來出發那個"},{"start":11223.044,"end":11235.889,"text":"企業用電無虞才有可能是一個長遠發展的一個基礎那另外對橋外投資在台灣穩定投資而言供電穩定才能讓他們安心投資在台灣"},{"start":11237.971,"end":11254.106,"text":"第二點在能源政策的規劃上它應該是一個永續的政策電力供應不應該是階段性的決策政府也常常跟企業說至少幾年不缺電或是2030或2032之前我們不會缺電"},{"start":11258.71,"end":11279.235,"text":"我想這樣的一個說法對企業來講是不具安全感的所以企業產業希望政府給我們的一個保證是政府的能源政策是永續無虞的第三點我們應該思考多元能源配置的一個選項"},{"start":11282.475,"end":11298.927,"text":"台灣的進口能源依存度在過去二十幾年來都達到大概都在百分之九十七左右這樣的一個程度所以目前來講我們的能源都持續照都需要進口"},{"start":11302.955,"end":11327.811,"text":"因為最近就是這幾年的俄烏戰爭然後中東局勢的地緣政治相關的問題造成我們現在全球能源的一個市場劇烈的動盪所以降低地緣政治的影響的積載電力是我們國家應該是要追求的一個選項我想我們"},{"start":11329.264,"end":11354.078,"text":"更應該積極的尋找擴大多元能源的一個來源啦尤其在穩定供電在穩定供電及安全永續的前提下來確保我們能源的自主性舉凡我想不管是核電也好潮汐發電好水力發電甚至氫能發電都應該是我們現在目前不能排除的相關選項"},{"start":11356.932,"end":11374.77,"text":"這樣才能夠增加我們自己對能源自主的一個可控性最後我想在多元配置的前提下能源多元配置的前提下尋找降低成本的方案是我們現在應該要積極去尋找的以電價而言"},{"start":11378.138,"end":11396.301,"text":"受到我們現在目前的一個能源政策就是增加天然氣的這個政策下這個地緣政治上面的衝突我們現在購買的天然氣通常都是比原來的煤高價許多"},{"start":11397.582,"end":11416.508,"text":"近幾年我想在我們那個電價審議會裡面其實討論相當多的就是因為我們因為能源的成本購置成本太高所以造成台電的虧損那包含到現在目前大家都在討論上有沒有可能要調漲電價其實這個都是我們現在目前看到一個問題所以"},{"start":11418.268,"end":11437.336,"text":"在能源配置多元的前提下我們必須尋找降低成本的各項的一個可行方案能夠維持穩定合理的電價成本我們企業的競爭力才得以確保我想這是在產業界當中我們現在目前所要訴求的一個問題以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":11442.434,"end":11455.653,"text":"謝謝劉秘書長的發言那接下來我們有請蔡雅瑩律師台灣蠻野心竹生態協會專職律師蔡律師發言謝謝那下一位李敬偉執行長請準備"},{"start":11468.555,"end":11486.365,"text":"不管是支持核電或反對核電大家都有一個共識就是一定要確保核安就是核安應該是不管反核、擁核都有共識的事項那因此我們訴求是說希望要先修核安三法把我們核安的漏洞全部都補起來再來討論在這樣一個基礎下是否有需要去研議"},{"start":11487.205,"end":11495.234,"text":"那第一個我自己認為至少有三個很明顯的核安的法制漏洞第一個是我們核子事故的緊急計劃應變區涵蓋範圍不足這是從日本福島核災的經驗讓我們看到我們的緊急應變區是不足的然後第二個我們也發現"},{"start":11502.442,"end":11525.905,"text":"核電廠當初在蓋的時候40幾年前缺乏核電廠的選址規範導致我們既有的核電廠幾乎都在蓋在斷層帶甚至有的蓋在岩漿庫上但這也是對我們的核案一個很巨大的隱患而且這種隱患並不是更換設備就可以解決的選址的問題事實上是很難解決的那最後我是認為說我們國家的法律對於發生核子事故的時候對受害者保障也是不足的"},{"start":11527.048,"end":11548.015,"text":"那首先我們第一個訴求我們認為防災要嚴格也就是應該要先修訂核子事故緊急應變法第13條明定緊急應變區計劃區不得少於30公里其實在輔導核災之後大家如果看以前的紀錄曾經有非常多的委員提出這個修法有的是說要延長擴大到20公里有的是說要擴大到30公里那我們認為30公里是更周延的我們可以看到日本"},{"start":11548.815,"end":11568.292,"text":"我們在福島核災後台灣的緊急應變計劃區只有8公里可是日本是強制撤離20公里然後建議居家掩蔽或是自主撤離是30公里他們的補償也是到30公里我們可以看到如果只應變8公里的話核一廠只影響到3萬人可是如果到30公里是420萬人"},{"start":11569.753,"end":11586.109,"text":"核二廠是8.6萬人然後到30公里是598萬人這樣所需要應變的一些撤離跟安置所需要的條件是非常不一樣的在日本福島核災因為福島電廠它周圍的人口比較少他們實際撤離的人數大概是15萬多人"},{"start":11588.011,"end":11614.72,"text":"可是我們國家如果以核二廠來講有些人想要研議的核二廠如果發生事故影響到的人口數是輔導核災的將近40倍我們國家有條件撤離安置這麼多人嗎不但要修法而且要確實的盤點有沒有能力撤離安置幾百萬人如果沒有能力憑什麼說安全呢而且我要提醒各位美國的國土面積比台灣大非常多日本的國土面積也是台灣的10倍"},{"start":11615.4,"end":11639.885,"text":"過去有核災反核食的公投其實我有算過所謂的核食五縣市他們的面積那五個縣市加起來的面積就比台灣還要來的大如果發生核子事故全台灣都被世界各國認為是一個污染的地區我們連生存的空間都沒有何來的安全第二個我們要求的修法是安全不落人後我們希望不要修改核子管制法不應該只討論"},{"start":11642.506,"end":11664.126,"text":"只修研議如果真的要修還要增訂選址規範而且明文要求要採取國際最高的安全標準因為台灣面積太小一旦發生事故幾乎是亡國滅種的問題所以只能採全世界最高只能比國際上高更嚴格而不能更寬鬆那我們過去其實歐盟在做核電廠的壓力測試的崇華審查報告裡面也有講到"},{"start":11666.308,"end":11683.906,"text":"台灣核電廠暴露於天然災害的危害例如地震、海嘯、水災跟颱風是遠高於同期做歐盟壓力測試的歐洲各國我們的風險比別的國家高我們對安全的要求應該要比別的國家嚴絕對不能更寬鬆所以我們要求要做選址採最高的規範"},{"start":11685.347,"end":11712.754,"text":"已經蓋下去我們默默的承受這麼高的風險已經超過40年了我們認為修法之後未來如果是在危險的地方是不只是不能興建、擴建、研議甚至裝填核燃料就是我們希望能夠提前面的提升安全的要求那我們認為說至少要考慮像斷層或地質條件水溫還有人口的問題如果人口很多或是有其他的安全疑慮都是不應該去開發的而且我們希望這樣的一個最高安全標準是由主管機關和安會"},{"start":11713.314,"end":11741.479,"text":"先收集會診分析國際上所有的安全規範然後還有分析我國的特殊的條件然後政府先提一個草案來告訴我們為什麼現在這個草案是國際最高的標準然後經過公開展示是說明意見會診聽證以後然後再來訂那如果後來國際規範有一些加嚴或是我國家的一些地質各種條件有一些變化的心事證也應該修正規定而且在修正之前還是如果說中間有一些審查還是要把心事證考量就是我們希望安全不是口號而是具體的行動"},{"start":11742.219,"end":11756.787,"text":"那我很具體的我們認為我們國家根本不應該研議的公立監察院的調查報告有提到美國核管會的核能核電廠地質與地震懸殖準則要求核電廠半徑8公里是不能有活動斷層的可是我們的一二三廠"},{"start":11757.347,"end":11779.161,"text":"全部距離活動斷層都不到8公里過去無知承受風險現在已知絕對不應該延長風險光是這點我就認為我們其實不需要再花浪費精神去討論要不要研議但我想要說的是核電的地域可能是地熱的天堂先釐清場址條件再選擇適當的方式發電方式我們核二廠下面被選者證實有岩漿庫是讓風險非常的高"},{"start":11781.903,"end":11808.16,"text":"我們為什麼不去發展真正相對安全的這樣地熱這樣子同樣是低碳然後又更穩定的基載的電力偏偏要去沿江庫上發展核電這是我們很難接受的過去政府自己也說說我們國家的地熱潛能大概有40GW洗衣河一二三廠全部加起來大概也有5.2GW我們的地熱潛能是所有三座核電廠的將近八倍這樣的一個狀況為什麼我們不好好去發展地熱偏偏要發展有很多爭議高風險的核電呢"},{"start":11810.221,"end":11836.089,"text":"甚至台電自己也說因為地熱的容量因素它可以達到70%如果說每個地熱電廠都是能夠這樣的狀態事實上未來如果我們要靠地熱來滿足全台灣的需求並不是一個很樂觀的做法反正我們希望政府應該往這個方向去前進而不是發展核電而且我們也看到核二廠跟核三廠大概各1.9Gg為什麼政府自己的計畫不好好去發展地熱要去討論說要不要"},{"start":11836.989,"end":11865.978,"text":"用核電那過去也有討論說核二廠變成地熱電廠這些我就覺得應該要重新檢視不要只討論研議討論改造的狀況甚至也有專家分析其實地熱的發電成本是比核電還要低的那我覺得這件事情是需要去討論的再來是我們要求核災必須賠償包含擴大核子損害賠償的一個範圍然後刪除那個國際武裝衝突跟重大天災免責的規定因為我們都知道福島核災就是一個天災造成的這麼大的事故居然可以免責"},{"start":11866.618,"end":11889.564,"text":"是不能接受或者是從無二二物戰爭也看到核電廠在戰爭中是有可能被攻擊的然後我們要求刪除那些核子經營者以外免責的規定包含那個奇工瑕疵設備製造商要負責然後那個賠償責任上限也應該要刪除回歸有損害及有賠償然後還有要求責任保險去考慮人口產業發展放射性污染清除成本等然後也要延長那個時效"},{"start":11895.493,"end":11901.657,"text":"謝謝蔡律師的發言我們接下來請李敬偉執行長MomentX執行長李敬偉發言"},{"start":11911.494,"end":11936.473,"text":"主席各位產業先進各位學者大家好我是Momax的執行長那我們是一間AI科技公司所以我今天在這邊發言主要代表的其實就是一個從產業來看整個能源議題跟一個比較青年創業對於能源議題的想法那既然我們自己是自己開公司我們看事情當然是比較務實我們從最務實的角度來看就是隨著"},{"start":11937.734,"end":11956.453,"text":"台灣的科技發展不管是AI也好晶片產業也好我們對能源的需求是一直在上升的那我覺得這個是一個不用質疑的事實也是大家的共識那很多不同的觀點我覺得前面的各個發言都有提到了所以我們就純粹就事實來討論事實一我們的能源發展是"},{"start":11960.777,"end":11971.67,"text":"需求是越來越大的那第二個事實是其實核能並沒有大家想像中的那麼危險這是一個科學跟科技可以被解決的問題"},{"start":11974.046,"end":11991.548,"text":"那我們也可以看到說未來應該講說還有一個事實就是未來其實大家全世界的發展跟不管是藍綠也好的共識都是要降碳排那以台灣的另外一個事實說我們的再生能源就算全部加起來"},{"start":11992.609,"end":12018.69,"text":"也無法滿足未來不斷上漲的能源需求就算全部加起來都沒有辦法我們一定要有其他替代的能源選項那目前這個替代能源選項其他幾乎都是需要高碳排的選項不管是火力還是現在的天然氣都是有碳排的所以其實如果真的要滿足這樣的能源需求我們一定得把核能納入考量"},{"start":12020.013,"end":12041.408,"text":"那我覺得這個其實就是一個不是要不要做是如何做的問題就是如果我們要接受核能作為能源選項那這也是目前看起來唯一務實上可行的路啦因為如果沒有這個核能我不覺得有任何其他的方式可以達到未來的能源需求基本上是做不到了"},{"start":12042.749,"end":12057.385,"text":"實際上就是做不到所以我希望我們的執政黨也好我們的在野黨委員也好可以更把重心放在如果這是必須被考慮的選項該如何做 怎麼做才可以做到這件事情"},{"start":12058.346,"end":12080.469,"text":"另外一個是我本身是個工程師也是就是比較偏科學這一面的所以我今天其實看到葛委員那邊寄來的那個通知想說教育文化委員會我覺得非常合理因為其實我覺得核能的議題其實很多真的是教育問題它本身是一個對科技發展的信任度的問題"},{"start":12081.71,"end":12100.05,"text":"然後對於安全的未知對自己不了解或不夠了解事物的恐懼的問題其實如果我們對於人類科技的發展是有信心的我們應該要有信心知道說核能是可以被科技解決的這些污染都是可以被科技解決的然後這些"},{"start":12101.554,"end":12129.729,"text":"不管是核廢料也好這些都有辦法在工程上被解決那我們不應該為這件事情而感到恐懼我們其實可以去擁抱說我們要相信我們的社會我們的工程師我們的產業界我們的科學家有能力去解決這樣的問題然後朝希望未來的台灣在能源自主上面是可以夠安全也可以提供整個工商業界安全的能源供給的後盾謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12133.635,"end":12143.523,"text":"謝謝李進偉執行長的發言那我們接下來有請徐光榮常務理事媽媽氣候行動聯盟常務理事徐常務理事發言"},{"start":12158.444,"end":12184.987,"text":"主席各位女士各位先生今天很榮幸來跟大家討論核電我們台灣核電為什麼不可以輕易的研議核能產業有一個跟其他所有產業最不一樣的地方就是核災風險是百姓在承擔你想想看風機或是太陽能板砸到房子砸壞了不能用了"},{"start":12186.209,"end":12187.681,"text":"你說一兩千塊可以解決嗎"},{"start":12189.619,"end":12193.762,"text":"可以處理嗎當然不行但是核電確實可以為什麼呢因為我們台灣的核能的法律呢幾乎都是沿用美國的那美國1957年通過一個Price-Anderson Act就有涉理賠上限161億美金啦現在所以我們都抄他們的不過呢我們台灣呢理賠上限呢就只有42億台幣也就是說假如發生在台北附近"},{"start":12219.699,"end":12233.79,"text":"好 那一個人大概分到一千塊錢可以幹嘛 你的房貸還要繼續交房子都不值錢了 東西都賣不出去了產業什麼東西都賣不出去了但是你只得到一千塊 兩千塊好了"},{"start":12236.195,"end":12262.433,"text":"所以我認為我們的核災理賠當然了核電業者是說你假如沒有理賠上限沒有人願意保險所以我建議我們的理賠上限至少要增加到4200億台幣那剛剛習友先進講過我們台灣的三座核電廠離斷層非常的近核一是7公里核二是5公里核三是從廠裡面通過這個斷層"},{"start":12266.355,"end":12277.422,"text":"那我們的耐震係數是多少呢你說我們蓋得非常堅固即使是斷層都沒有關係不是的我們的耐震係數照2013年我們參與歐盟壓力測試的時候我們那時候的原能會提出來的國家報告寫核一0.3G核二0.4G核三0.4G"},{"start":12289.429,"end":12310.279,"text":"然後呢這個報告到了這個歐盟壓力測試專家2013年底有來11月報告出爐原子能委員會都沒有跟這些專家提我們台灣有要提升耐震不過呢在第二年的6月居然我們都耐震提升了"},{"start":12311.42,"end":12317.763,"text":"短短的半年期間我們就已經耐震提升到0.5、0.6、0.7G了太神奇了那即使停到0.6G有用嗎?也沒有用因為日本在311之前的核電廠的耐震係數就是0.6G"},{"start":12330.848,"end":12342.638,"text":"但是你看看世界最大的核電廠薄崎易雨核電廠七座裝置在311之前一個6.6級的地震就把他們震壞了所以311發生的時候還有三個機組是沒有開啟的喔就是6.6級0.6G的耐震那現在七座機組還是停著的只有第六第七座在申請重啟"},{"start":12360.712,"end":12368.319,"text":"也就是說日本花了十幾年的時間都沒有辦法加強耐震我們台灣在半年之間就已經做好了所以我們應該輸出這樣的技術給日本教他們怎麼迅速加強耐震"},{"start":12378.027,"end":12385.314,"text":"另外呢其實就是這個用過的燃料棒池子其實是比反應爐更危險福島核災發生的時候有一度說要疏散東京市為什麼"},{"start":12393.661,"end":12412.521,"text":"因為第四座反應爐爐裡面沒有燃料但是它的反應爐旁邊的用過燃料池子裡面有很多的用過燃料棒在這個水潑出來之後呢怕這個火燃燒起來那萬一不幸的時候呢它就可能會"},{"start":12414.242,"end":12443.542,"text":"飄到東京所以一度考慮東京要疏散不過最幸運的事情發生就是那個水從旁邊不小心流進來了所以並沒有發生這樣的事情那日本人非常擔心我們台灣是不是更需要擔心右邊是福島的六個機組他在燃料用過燃料棒池子裡面含有的用過燃料的量"},{"start":12444.763,"end":12472.259,"text":"我们台湾目前所有的用过的燃料棒就在反应炉旁边我讲用的量我们原能会或是核安管制委员会只有给我们几束那是不一样的核三厂是跟核一二是完全不一样的所以我们的用过燃料棒的废料是非常多核三厂的两个都非常多是日本的大概有三倍四倍"},{"start":12473.464,"end":12475.265,"text":"是不是比人家更危險我們還不想這個還要想再研議然後呢最後一件事情我們現在可以隨便研議嗎核三廠是一種叫做壓水式反應爐不是核一核二的這種"},{"start":12492.421,"end":12495.764,"text":"那個熱交換的時候是非常高壓的狀況所以它的那個管子非常容易堵塞所以就是這個反應這個蒸汽產生器那其實2009年的時候台電公司就已經派員去法國去西班牙學習怎麼更換河山廠的蒸汽產生器"},{"start":12521.944,"end":12538.993,"text":"這個蒸汽產生器照他們的報告就說因為不是有掛在線上可以隨便去買來的所以今天你訂貨法國人大概要花五年的時間幫你做一個訂做然後呢"},{"start":12540.233,"end":12569.553,"text":"西班牙的公司要來台灣研究怎麼把河山廠的為主體切開來管子怎麼切開來把蒸汽產生器推進去然後再把所有的管線再接回去不是一根兩根幾百根幾千根所以總共換蒸汽產生器至少供期要有七年"},{"start":12570.594,"end":12597.53,"text":"所以所有美國核電廠在研議的時候都在甚至在十年前就開始更換蒸汽產生器那我們台灣並沒有做這件事情想要在一個月的時間或半年不到的時間就談研議實在是所有居民企業好了就我們發生核災企業你們的東西就不要想賣了"},{"start":12599.051,"end":12609.177,"text":"安全永遠是第一謝謝謝謝徐光榮常務理事的發言接下來我們有請張祺凱委員發言很高興今天有這麼多專家學者到現場還有我們的行政主管部門都在今天這個會議非常非常的重要"},{"start":12629.79,"end":12643.14,"text":"因為馬上就要漲電價了馬上就要漲電價了然後呢我們的核能到底要不要重啟或者要不要延續我們已經從去年的第一會期"},{"start":12648.366,"end":12673.574,"text":"開始討論了很期待今天我們透過理性跟專業這個討論有沒有可能找出一個比較好的一個答案甚至在馬上要開的電價審議委員會發現說我們的核能不管是重啟或者是嚴厲有可能是安全的更重要的讓核能像以前維持一個穩定"},{"start":12675.742,"end":12704.245,"text":"便宜的一個電價讓我們4月1號不用漲電價今天啊我想先從國際的情勢跟大家做一個共享我們現在談核電到底安不安全要不要研議全世界這幾年有非常非常大翻天覆地的這個改變當以前啊發生這個山梨島災變日本發生這個福島災變之後大家都不用核能了談核設變"},{"start":12706.343,"end":12726.988,"text":"可是你從國際上去看現在大家就在重返核能反回核能現在反對核能現在只剩下台灣的民進黨政府喔我建議大家可以看一下大家打維基百科維基百科做了一個現在目前全世界啊全世界哪些國家現在用核電哪些不用核電的裡面啊只剩下一個國家現在是反對核電的就是等待完我為什麼提這個例子呢"},{"start":12736.735,"end":12762.574,"text":"美國跟日本以前他們如果核電廠關掉重新要重開他們以前不願意重開把它關掉嘛對不對要重開現在最近這兩三年大家去看一下只要確定是安全一到三年就重啟啦更重要的烏俄戰爭三年前發生的時候烏俄戰爭的時候大家都知道德國以前是反核的嘛對不對"},{"start":12764.687,"end":12793.396,"text":"德國在烏俄戰爭的發現了他們天然氣斷氣了價格太高了他們馬上做了一個緊急的處理他們讓本來三座核子反應爐緊急檢查他是安全的讓他各研議了三到四個月上個月啊德國大選大家已經知道那個結果他反核的執政黨第一大黨跟第二大黨聯合執政黨全部都大敗"},{"start":12795.47,"end":12798.494,"text":"連德國這麼一個反核的國家民心都變了他們現在大勝的是第三大黨跟第四大黨要聯合組政府他們是支持要反回核能的所以國際的情勢已經在變了"},{"start":12811.201,"end":12836.202,"text":"連西班牙以前也是反對用核能的西班牙現在也要用了最特別的是義大利大家都知道義大利有文化復興對不對義大利前兩個禮拜喊出一個口號叫做核能復興因為核能穩定而且又便宜所以人以前最反核的德國喔或者以前因為有核災的日本跟美國全部都在反回核能了台灣真的"},{"start":12837.279,"end":12856.646,"text":"還要抱著以前的意識形態嗎當然我知道有人可能對安全有疑慮等一下我們進一步來談我剛舉例的是說如果當美國跟日本跟全世界先進的國家他們都在用他們認為安全沒有問題為什麼我要問為什麼台灣安全就是有問題的最近啊AIT的這個處長啊古立言他接受自由時報的專訪"},{"start":12867.895,"end":12893.354,"text":"他說美國跟日本最近為什麼要重用這個核能他說第一個因為穩定還有價格低廉的這個問題他還直接講了他說我們可以幫台灣解決這個問題美國都開口了斯圖文上個禮拜有一個兵推斯圖文是上一任AIT的處長他直接講了他說台灣的這個電力明明有切口啊不穩定啊"},{"start":12894.571,"end":12903.969,"text":"他不懂全世界都還回核能為什麼台灣不還回你不管是現任的AIT的處長上一任的前任的這個AIT的處長都這樣講了"},{"start":12905.956,"end":12924.154,"text":"全世界都這樣講為什麼台灣要這樣呢所以我先從國際的情勢跟大家報告如果從國際都已經在改變了從以前反對核能到反回核能台灣真的要用意識形態然後還抱持留在所有人都已經到了21世紀了我們要停留在上世紀嗎這是第一個第二個我們台灣現在面臨的是什麼問題台灣為什麼最近這幾年一直在漲電價"},{"start":12931.223,"end":12958.271,"text":"不就是因為核一廠停掉了核二廠停掉了核三廠的一號機停掉了5月17號馬上就來了核三廠的二號機馬上要停了大家可以去算一下光是核電廠核一核二核三停掉之後我們的過電成本一年增加一千億結果我們政府啊現在一直拿我們人民納稅錢一年補一千億已經補了三千億進去了漲了五次電價還填不飽喔"},{"start":12960.674,"end":12982.01,"text":"一般是買歷電當然也花了五六百億這是個問題最大的原因就是因為我們把核電停掉了那你政府要停核電你要跟人民講每一年的一千億要從哪邊來啊你每次都要撥補然後十月一號漁人節馬上到了又要漲一次搞不好今年十月一號又要漲一次這是多嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":12984.191,"end":13007.287,"text":"所以我今天特別來參加這個公聽會一方面當然傾聽我們專家寫者的建議不過我期待大家可以從全世界一個大的趨勢來看然後從國內我們現在碰到的問題我們剛剛不是只有碰到電價要上漲的這個問題我們還碰到我們的電力是不穩定的然後全世界人在這樣活動除了安全之外"},{"start":13008.505,"end":13015.453,"text":"穩定之外他們在談到綠電的問題低碳的這個問題我們台灣現在沒有用核能用什麼用天然氣對不對天然氣也不穩定啊天然氣的排碳"},{"start":13021.534,"end":13046.133,"text":"這是不是對台灣的產業也是一個非常大的一個傷害所以當然我等一下會好好傾聽可能今天有些專家寫者是非常堅持說我們的安全是要顧慮到的當然我也主張說你要檢查確定是安全才可以用所以這個會期我蠻期待的包括民眾黨跟國民黨甚至有些民進黨的這個立法委員我們共同好好來這個法把它修好在法令上已經完整的時候我們共同來解決我們這個問題"},{"start":13047.815,"end":13052.208,"text":"電的穩定 電力的穩定電價要讓它可以降下來 不要一直漲電價我們共同來努力 謝謝"},{"start":13056.191,"end":13082.671,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員的發言那接下來呢我們先前有提到我們有一位非常也是一樣重要的來賓合碩聯合科技的童子賢董事長那因為在國外無法趕回與會但是他特別為了這一次的公聽會錄製了一段影片我們也很高興的看到我們的與會的專家學者有很多位都還在現場那也還包含我們所有的這個行政官員"},{"start":13083.391,"end":13087.2,"text":"那我們是否就請醫事人員協助播放童子賢董事長的這個發言"},{"start":13090.433,"end":13114.608,"text":"為什麼核能對臺灣是重要的核能非常好的優點有幾個第一個它的供電穩定第二個它佔用土地非常的小第三個核能會不排碳第四個核能經濟實惠它的價錢比天然氣比某一些綠能要便宜第五個"},{"start":13115.643,"end":13131.224,"text":"可能它的能源韌性相當的好也就是說它的磁性性相當的好相對的像天然氣的就是它的LNG傳如果兩個禮拜不到它就會斷氣也就是沒有電到"},{"start":13131.704,"end":13159.466,"text":"那我回過頭來談一下所謂的核能的供電穩定是這樣的目前我們在不排碳發電上面有綠能跟核能兩種選項我個人的衷心期望是綠能跟核能不要偏廢兩個一起可以發展那為什麼呢因為綠能是一種間歇性的能源綠能目前在台灣最主要發展的是太陽能跟風力發電"},{"start":13160.747,"end":13187.307,"text":"太陽能 有太陽就有電 沒有太陽就沒有電尤其當晚或者是夜間根本就太陽很微弱或者是沒有太陽這就變成電就會停 這個叫做間歇性發電而風 風也是一個看天吃飯的發電方式尤其是台灣非常需要電 需要冷氣的夏天到了夏天的傍晚到半夜幾乎都是沒有風"},{"start":13188.688,"end":13214.162,"text":"這是整個地球的大氣結構所帶來的條件我們沒有辦法去對抗它所以核能它是非常的穩定核能它的燃料棒只要上限開始發電它可以連續18個月也就是一年半不停的而且它的那條曲線非常的筆直非常的穩定這個穩定性對工業生產來說非常的重要"},{"start":13214.662,"end":13231.629,"text":"另外一個我談一下這個核能佔土地非常的小如果我們要把核能擴增兩倍或三倍的話台灣完全不需要額外的土地只要現在的核一到核四原來的土地就可以把核電的發電量持續擴張"},{"start":13233.19,"end":13248.919,"text":"如果我們不擴張而是把核二核三研議的話基本上也沒有用到台灣額外的土地而綠能在這一部分需要龐大的陸地跟龐大的海洋來執行綠能我有一個統計我們在2023年全台灣的用電2821.4億噸"},{"start":13260.126,"end":13283.725,"text":"這樣子的用電如果我們完全用太陽能紮電來支應的話會需要10.5個台北市的土地才能夠生產足夠的太陽能對於國土非常珍貴對於寸土寸金的台灣來說10.5個台北市的土地實在是一個不可承受之重"},{"start":13286.787,"end":13308.951,"text":"如果我們好好地用核電的U 供應穩定的電那麼台灣的產業發展 台灣的民生用電有兩個好處對外來說我們上進 台灣是一份子對內來說 其實台灣過去十年的供U"},{"start":13310.709,"end":13325.577,"text":"主要是因為火力發電所帶來的潛伏粒子跟二氧化碳的排放對臺灣的空氣品質是一個很嚴重的負面的效應到目前為止核電尤其是核二核三"},{"start":13326.878,"end":13354.398,"text":"它的發電的效率非常的好它的成本非常的低根據台電在去年公布的這個發電成本資料來說核電在最新的一個年度公布的成本是每一度電1.42元台幣那如果是風力發電跟太陽能發電呢台電向民間就是外來的外商或者民間這個發電購入的成本呢"},{"start":13356.099,"end":13377.998,"text":"風力發電是6.59元,也就是6.6元然後太陽能發電購入成本是4.87元,接近4.9元6.6元跟4.9元相對於1.42元的核能來說可以差到5塊錢以上台灣如果一年用電3000億度的時候"},{"start":13380.04,"end":13403.459,"text":"每一度電差一塊錢一年整個國家就要支付額外的三千億如果每一度電差到兩塊錢就必須額外的支付六千億那剛才給各位這個的數字是台電公布的數字風力發電的話可以差到四塊以上跟目前核二核三的這個成本那如果是這個太陽能的話可以差到三塊半"},{"start":13404.215,"end":13424.461,"text":"那各位把它乘以每一年如果需要用3000億對電所要發費的這個額外的支出是很驚人的所以我才會呼籲說讓核電來幫忙可以每年替台灣省下N個千億我要說一下這個民遠的韌性如剛才所說的"},{"start":13426.402,"end":13452.899,"text":"核電廠的燃料棒放上去就可以連續18個月非常穩定的發電通常燃料棒放上去之後旁邊還會備份另外一套準備要下一代一次要使用的燃料棒兩份燃料棒只要一艘船船運一道一次可以供應36個月也就是可以供應三年所以這個東西對台灣的能源韌性有很大的幫助"},{"start":13453.599,"end":13474.069,"text":"跟各位聊一聊為什麼會重視電力我曾經用一個我規矩的一句話叫做電力及國力來說明目前台灣所擅長的先進晶片製造需要用到相當的電力台灣所要追求的AI"},{"start":13475.369,"end":13495.928,"text":"也要用到相當的電力如果台灣想要減少汽車所排放的空污那我們會用電動車來代替燃油車的話我們也會用到電力也就是先進晶片的製造AI的預算跟電動車的使用跟推廣都會需要用到很多的電力"},{"start":13496.528,"end":13524.723,"text":"那電在能源的類別上面它是比煤炭還有燃油更精密更可控制的一種乾淨能源目前全世界主要的發電來源有幾個一個是古老的水利或者傳統的燃煤或者新興的天然氣另外一個當然就是不排碳的能源就是核電跟太陽能跟風力發電那我在這邊要跟大家聊一個數字"},{"start":13526.063,"end":13538.311,"text":"太陽能跟風力發電經過全球努力的發展的二三十年目前全世界,我講的是全世界,不是台灣全世界的風力發電加太陽能目前2023年IEA國際能源總數的統計是13.3%"},{"start":13544.595,"end":13556.296,"text":"也就是靠風力發電加太陽暖增新興的科技全世界努力了20年目前就是13.38%所以我給一個結論靠這個13.38%救不了地球暖暴"},{"start":13557.476,"end":13584.007,"text":"全世界還依賴另外一個古老的綠能叫做水力發電水力發電佔了全世界14.2%那14.2%加13.3%加起來就是27.5%左右那這27.5%一樣距離我們要百分之百用沒有不排碳的方式來救地球距離其實非常的遙遠而核能到目前為止在全世界的統計大概還在9.1%到9.5%左右"},{"start":13587.368,"end":13611.656,"text":"所以經過這麼多年下來我們得到一個答案讓核能跟綠能加水力發電來攜手合作才有機會來挽救地球暖化的命運台灣本身經過過去多年尤其是小英政府在八年裡面確實非常努力的發展太陽能跟風力發電可是我們遇到的瓶頸是這樣"},{"start":13612.856,"end":13622.574,"text":"台灣地狹人稠沒有足夠的空間來發展綠能所以過去八年我在2023一整年的統計上面看到太陽能發電4.6%"},{"start":13625.612,"end":13653.045,"text":"風力發電2.2%這是像台灣整體用電4.6%加2.2%就是6.8%這個是2023年的統計到了2024有微幅的進步又增加1%多所以太陽能加風力從6.8%大概就進入到8.1%、8.2%了我也給一個這樣的結論你靠這8.1%、8.2%救不了地球暖化也沒有能力提供整個台灣產業界所需要的綠能"},{"start":13654.185,"end":13675.345,"text":"不管是地熱發電或風力發電我們都希望說這些新的不排碳能源每一度變得很重要大家還是努力的去做研究不要停止可是何妨讓核能來合作所以這樣的方向叫做核力共存這是我所衷心盼望的"},{"start":13675.956,"end":13697.063,"text":"所有的先進國家過去10年包含美國、日本、歐盟都在微幅的下滑用電都在微幅的下滑這是台灣50年來的用電的分析這是全球的分析也就是大家可以看得到全球在最近10年是25.4%的成長台灣只有11.8%所以相對是沒有那麼高的成長幅度"},{"start":13704.292,"end":13731.665,"text":"所以對我來說其實認為能源不難解決你只要選對能源的類別在這上面下功夫台灣的耗電除了台積電跟電動車跟AI即使這樣子它的成長比起我們在20年前30年前的成長真的是相對少很多不用自己嚇自己只要做妥善的規劃跟把電網建設好台灣的用電可以很穩定的"},{"start":13736.715,"end":13756.278,"text":"好謝謝童子賢董事長的發言好那接下來我想專家學者委員均已發言完畢另有范雲委員林德福委員林怡瑾委員提出書面意見那現在請何安會代表回應"},{"start":13774.175,"end":13791.661,"text":"我想再次感謝大院邀請核安會列席今天的會議那各位委員、學者專家以及與會的代表對於核能安全表達的關注以及針對今天討論提綱所提出的看法對我國核能安全管制都是重要的參考的意見"},{"start":13794.79,"end":13808.565,"text":"核安會尊重大院委員及黨團所提的核管法修正草案以及條例的草案對於能源規劃及淨營碳排的議題核安會並沒有預設的立場"},{"start":13810.939,"end":13830.046,"text":"那在這裡僅是以核安管制的立場再次聲明若修法通過仍需由台電公司依機組狀況就機組運轉的可行性及安全性進行評估也需要依法規及採用和國際一致的安全標準及做法針對廠房結構及設備"},{"start":13832.947,"end":13848.896,"text":"进行整体的老化安全评估执行机组设备安全检查更新需要态患的设备执行必要的安全强化措施恢复运转所需组织人力解决用过燃料池储存空间的问题"},{"start":13849.833,"end":13872.605,"text":"此外若涉有其他主管機關法規要求事項台電公司也應依其規定辦理在符合法規及安全要求的前提下方可依法提出換照的申請那河安會作為獨立的核能安全管制機關持續秉持專業和公正透明的態度那無論是現在的機組運轉除役"},{"start":13874.741,"end":13902.659,"text":"或未來若需要再使用核能我們均會秉持嚴格執行核電廠的安全管制那本次公聽會對於管制方面的寶貴意見核安會會適時透過納入安全管制的參考做好民眾安全把關的工作那謝謝大家今天的意見那最後還是要敬祝各位與會的人員健康喜樂平安如意謝謝"},{"start":13906.182,"end":13907.383,"text":"謝謝副主委的發言 謝謝"},{"start":13911.38,"end":13933.599,"text":"那感謝各位專家學者今天的與會並發表寶貴的意見各位可能也有看到今天早上我7點10分來到這裡簽名做發言但是最終我個人也就放棄了發言主要也是覺得今天各位的發言內容都非常的完整我希望我今天能夠以一個傾聽的角色來傾聽各界的意見"},{"start":13937.202,"end":13951.619,"text":"那我想今天的公聽會大家應該也可以感覺到我們是希望能夠提供一個理性的平台讓大家發表對於台灣未來能源以及加上未來科技整合起來去做一些選項考量的看法"},{"start":13952.199,"end":13970.825,"text":"那剛剛幾位專家特別關心核電廠的安全問題今天會議我們特別邀請到核安會以及台電來列席那核電廠的安全在核安會和台電嚴格遵守相關流程以及作業規定的前提下加上他們的專業我們相信絕對是可以安全無虞的"},{"start":13971.525,"end":13986.259,"text":"我想今天列席的核安會張副主委以及經濟部賴次長絕對可以為此做擔保核安會的報告也提到我國三座核電廠是依法廚藝套用一句執政黨喜歡使用的話"},{"start":13987.26,"end":14005.573,"text":"時空環境條件不同今天多位專家提到台灣對於穩定平價能源的需求我們是不是還要繼續用民國92年也就是2003年所施行的核子反應器設施管制法來綑綁住台灣的未來"},{"start":14007.774,"end":14022.011,"text":"用22年前的法規來管制現在甚至還要前置住未來產業的發展我們是不是真的要這樣做呢今天公聽會以後希望各界我們可以一起再次進行反思"},{"start":14023.012,"end":14037.688,"text":"同時今天中研院的報告也提到全球正有440座核電廠正在運轉另外有65座核電廠正在施工86座核電廠正在規劃334座核電廠正在研議興建"},{"start":14046.076,"end":14057.763,"text":"剛才也有專家提到一些數據那我們確認了一下發現可能有一些需要被更新剛剛有提到我們的鄰近國家像日本54座核電廠剛剛有說是22座停止運轉12座重啟"},{"start":14064.207,"end":14083.126,"text":"事实上今年二月份的资料已经很明确的表示停止运转的是54座里头的20座有14座已经重启运转而有另外没有提到的有11座正在做重启的申请那中研院的报告也有提到"},{"start":14083.826,"end":14100.551,"text":"新兴的核能科技具有安全高效率低成本的优点不仅是先进国家对此趋之若鹜更有许多的私人企业投入数亿数十亿甚至数百亿的美元去发展新兴的核能科技"},{"start":14101.351,"end":14109.818,"text":"我們剛才也持續的確認了剛剛也有專家不斷的引用IEA的數據這個數據也已經顯示IEA的報告說2025年核電發電量的佔比將有可能在2025年創下歷史新高"},{"start":14122.427,"end":14149.58,"text":"希望所有的專家學者都能在這個時刻以現在以及未來作為考量不要再用過去的機制過去的思維來綑綁自己我們是時候也有機會來進行反思所以我個人認為台灣不應該與世界以及科技的潮流去背道而馳那根據知名媒體2024年所做的民調"},{"start":14151.261,"end":14167.821,"text":"這個有高達七成的民眾認為台灣有缺電的問題同時也有高達七成的民眾支持繼續使用核電因此我們站在民意的基礎上我們也希望能夠傾聽各界的意見"},{"start":14169.546,"end":14187.825,"text":"這個各界的意見也希望能夠一起來推動核子反應器設施管制法的修法進程我們再次強調這個法令從民國92年施行以後是需要進行討論跟修改的不要忽視高達七成的台灣民意我們的政府應該要正視"},{"start":14188.826,"end":14213.183,"text":"那也就在今天早上的這個時間,這個美國這個NVIDIA正在進行一個年度的發表會,GTC的發表會。在這個發表會當中,黃仁勛也明確的表達,Every data center in the future will be power limited.Your revenues are power limited."},{"start":14213.993,"end":14227.353,"text":"也就是所有的資料中心也就影射指涉著AI科技以及經濟數位科技的發展的未來將有賴於人員的上限"},{"start":14228.342,"end":14248.452,"text":"同時他也表達不管是他所謂的Yours包含企業甚至我們相信也是一個國家他的利潤也就表示了他的經濟將會是Power Limited所以當全世界各國都在希望能夠提升自己的能源的上限"},{"start":14249.312,"end":14269.344,"text":"我們台灣也應該在這個時候很認真的進行思考所以我們再次呼籲我們的賴清德政府不要忽視高達七成的台灣民意也不要忽視我們非常多的產業、學界還有各種科技發展全球趨勢的專家"},{"start":14270.965,"end":14299.306,"text":"期待行政院趕快將院版的合資反應器設施管制法的修法草案送進立法院來討論如果沒有能源主權我們就不會有AI主權更遑論其他所以我們再次的強調行政院有責任也應該要趕快競速的將合資反應器設施管制法的修法草案送進立法院我們一起來共同討論"},{"start":14301.003,"end":14319.602,"text":"今天我們也就依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員以及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考"},{"start":14323.925,"end":14324.966,"text":"感謝大家,謝謝各位。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}