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我們有請部長有請洪部長部長早部長早 部長我要先跟你討論有關於這個冷氣安裝植栽的這個問題我不曉得你自己有沒有看到光是今年下半年已經連續發生四起這個工人因為安裝冷氣然後墜落死亡的案件"},{"start":33.887,"end":60.37,"text":"這個如果跟過去相較起來這個頻率算是增加的很多因為如果從2020年累積到現在是有17件 17人死亡但是光今年的下半年就短短的有4件我不知道你們有沒有去分析為什麼今年下半年這麼密集有這麼多起的因為冷氣安裝而死亡是 我們有觀察到這個事情那至於相關的分析的原因我請我們署長來"},{"start":61.789,"end":86.488,"text":"你們有一個一個個案去分析嗎 是什麼原因跟委員報告 其實冷氣安裝的部分最主要是這個墜落的一個災害那它主要的問題是發生在現在的大概安裝在舊有的建築物就現行的建築物的部分在當時規劃設計的時候沒有考慮到說它的安裝的一個路徑這部分就能源必須要到這個所謂建築物外"},{"start":87.148,"end":102.655,"text":"那這個部分雖然我們過去已經辦了幾乎每一年都要辦這個宣導會或是講習那看起來是現在這些安裝的這些員工他不曉得說正確如何去防護自己是年輕的師傅嗎還是有經驗"},{"start":103.876,"end":113.109,"text":"都有 那我們現在解決方式是說希望藉助這個他們的製造商跟通路商還有相關在實際從事這個電器安裝的這些職業工會我們一起來討論怎麼樣來訂定一個"},{"start":120.078,"end":136.775,"text":"一步一步的做這個安全的一個步驟的一個作為指引現在有關於冷氣裝修安全作業有訂指引的新北桃園他們其實有訂喔但是現在中央其實是沒有一套指引但是光訂指引他其實有一個問題他沒有強制力"},{"start":139.818,"end":169.05,"text":"那如果說高空作業安全現在已經爆發這麼多例了那你應該只是一個指引嗎還是應該是訂定標準因為事實上這個2023年立法院的法治局其實就有提出這個報告那針對這一點現在如果你們訂的還是指引的話他會有的問題就是缺乏強制力他只是一個guideline不是一個原則"},{"start":169.71,"end":187.219,"text":"各位說明的確因為這樣子的安裝冷氣墜落的事件其實他跟我們很多的事業單位他有一個比較明確的現場不太一樣所以其實在執行上面的確現在我們看到很多工協會跟我們反映的事情是"},{"start":187.839,"end":205.884,"text":"其實相關的法規不是沒有不是沒有但是他們現在很欠缺的事情是他們想知道怎麼樣子去執行這件事情在工程上面的做法在安裝上面的做法他們現在很欠缺這件事情所以我們也因為這樣我們也看到這個趨勢所以我們預計會在今年底來提出指引那應該是19號對不對"},{"start":207.925,"end":232.082,"text":"11月19号我们就会找相关的工协会一起来讨论你们应该是标准不要再是指引因为你们自己的那个议题研析里面其中有一个探讨研析我们找到资料就是这上面的他已经明确指出来了应该要研议定定具强制力的作业标准加以规范确保冷气安装作业的安全"},{"start":232.742,"end":250.448,"text":"所以不再是指引 而且之前立法院法治局也希望你們訂定的是標準所以我覺得這一個部分不要輕忽我希望這一個勞動部 既然你們要訂我就往標準的方向去訂定 這是你們自己的研議出來的結論"},{"start":252.469,"end":272.778,"text":"跟我們說明我們會在年底的時候我們會提出一套整體的這個職業安全跟職災的減災的計劃我們去預計年底那這部分其實我們也把它放在我們整體的減災計劃其中部分因為我們的確看到這些安裝家庭的設備那你們標準什麼時候要訂定"},{"start":275.649,"end":300.758,"text":"我們年底會來訂定相關其實其實我們的指引並不是單純他不就是這個指引其實他是有一定的有一定的規範效力的對有嗎有違反違反會有罰則嗎指引有罰則嗎有強制力嗎在法規上不是指引實際上就是法規規定裡面的怎麼樣做去符合法規嘛裡面按照指引做還是會扣合回來再跟法規你們有開罰過嗎"},{"start":303.069,"end":329.986,"text":"如果按照這樣表示你們有開罰過跟委員報告其實現在會定這個再定一步操作是因為他的作業實際上是一般的勞檢是在民宅上一般是很難去找到說他在屋頂或在哪裡所以你的法規就應該要再更嚴格一點讓他們就是必須按照你的標準來走我覺得就是反向思考就是因為你沒有辦法去勞檢所以你更需仰賴一個比較有強制力的"},{"start":330.506,"end":350.226,"text":"法規來要求不管你是任何的人你到家裡去安裝這個也是保護他是保護我們工人的安全跟文說明第一個事情我們在這個議題上面會非常非常需要跟相關的工協會合作這是第一個第二件事情我們當然可以來評估怎麼把這個強制性提高的做法"},{"start":350.486,"end":365.163,"text":"就像把強制性提高的做法我們可以評估但的確就像剛剛大家也講到的確實在這樣子的案場裡面勞檢員要直接到現場是比較困難的檢察員到現場是比較困難的到現場他可能已經走了"},{"start":365.583,"end":380.051,"text":"要強化你的SOP還有你的法令嘛另外一個我希望要求的是我現在已經看到在實務上面因為有一些老師傅就是慢慢退但是新的人進來他不見得那麼的閒熟所以在實務現場其實有這種跟不上的那針對這種高風險行業又跟不上青黃不接的我覺得你們的這一個相關的職業訓練就應該要去強化配合工協會他們怎麼樣去吸引就是有這樣專業的人進來"},{"start":393.038,"end":421.312,"text":"要不然我很怕我不知道這四例有哪幾例是比較生熟的如果是生熟的更會有這樣的問題他對於各方面風險的預判他經驗不足如果又沒有一個比較明確的標準跟作業跟這個企業主這邊願意去協助他就是說一個好的職業完整的職業訓練再讓他從事這樣的工作我覺得這個可能都還會再出現所以我希望這個漏洞從訓練強化的角度你們也應該要去強化好不好"},{"start":421.912,"end":442.103,"text":"好 當然 我們這個可以跟公協會來合作 包括相關的課程接下來我要問的是有關於外籍移工權益的問題因為前陣子有這個勞團到勞動部去抗議那他其中一個議題就是提到說這一個因為這家公司呢 因為他的員工外籍移工只要懷孕 然後就被遣返"},{"start":442.603,"end":469.869,"text":"那這個議題已經不是新議題了2018年到2021年監察院當時就已經糾正過就是說當時的懷孕終止契約離境大概有8000多人解約比例6乘6那現在呢勞團又再度指出這樣一個問題我要問這個部長的是那現在呢今年以來有多少的外籍移工因為懷孕提前終止契約離境人數有多少這個我們"},{"start":473.257,"end":499.606,"text":"我們可能要再統計一下再提供你們平常都不掌握的喔這個數據 這個也是大議題啊這個數據老闆已經去你們部裡抗議了你們這一題還沒有準備這個數據可能我們會再要再要再那1995接收到多少這樣的一個投訴就是這些數據我們我們下禮拜前提供下禮拜你們平常都沒有在做統計喔怎麼可以不統計呢這個也是一個重要的議題啊我們會來統計啦"},{"start":503.004,"end":525.621,"text":"那什麼時候要給本席什麼時候數字可以出來應該下週下週好這個要給本席我希望這個部長你要注意喔這一個是涉及到已經是違反我們現行的這個法令喔但是實務上還是持續這樣子做這個應該要去檢討喔不應該再存在這樣的一個現象有數字了是不是我們我們還那個數字並不是完整的數字好"},{"start":533.191,"end":549.719,"text":"希望你們多重視這個議題如果在委員會上回答不出來表示不夠重視接下來就是有關於這個我們的企業是不是有涉及到強迫外籍移工勞動的問題我想之前的巨大的這個案件讓大家看到"},{"start":550.679,"end":569.584,"text":"對企業的影響坦白講也是損失重大因為美方他是採取這個直接查扣貨品的方式喔那到目前為止你作為勞動部部長我們有解了嗎這一個部分應該要怎麼樣去解號因為現在被點名的還有17家的企業"},{"start":570.184,"end":588.693,"text":"那會不會都遭遇到同樣的一個狀況我們要怎麼樣事先去預防就是避免這個企業有強迫勞動的情況怎麼去輔導要求他們改善要不然這個其實都是我們台灣的經濟損失也很大勞工的權益也受損這是雙輸的局面"},{"start":589.133,"end":606.104,"text":"跟我們說我們會有幾個做法同時在進行第一個部分其實我們現在已經在研議相關的行動指引那這行動指引預計什麼時候出來我想應該也許明年年初或者是1月左右可以出來1月1月可以出來"},{"start":607.148,"end":626.353,"text":"我們的行動的指引目前正在研議中當然這部分我們也在跟經濟部這邊在做相關的會頭那我們也會跟經濟部這邊來研議其實一個對企業的輔導計畫這是第一點第二點是我們其實現在也同時在針對我們的法規的機制在進行盤點的檢討"},{"start":628.934,"end":645.246,"text":"那我们也希望在这个辅导的过程里面一步一步也了解我们企业目前的状况然后跟目前尤其尤其是跟目前国际的要求之间的落差的情况这部分没做第三点很重要是我们其实现在其实也希望能够扩大"},{"start":647.529,"end":664.39,"text":"國對國執聘的量能因為尤其是在仲介費相關的議題上面我知道擴大執聘這個我們都非常讚但只是你們現在一直都這個量能一直都是無法放大所以我們其實現在也很重要是我們現在也在跟包括跟企業界"},{"start":665.171,"end":686.651,"text":"包括跟來源的母國我們都會針對擴大職聘這邊來簽訂更進一步的MOU或者是希望讓更多的企業可以了解職聘也是他們可以選擇的一個做法因為的確現在國際的要求是認為這個企業如果讓移工來負擔仲介費的話就會陷入這個強迫勞動的疑慮"},{"start":688.633,"end":710.126,"text":"所以要避免這個疑慮的話就變成企業可能未來在這些聘僱過程裡面需要更多的承擔那如果企業願意選擇直聘的話這部分也是可以降低他的成本跟支出的做法所以這幾個方面都是我們現在在因應強迫勞動的議題國際上面非常關注強迫勞動議題的時候我們其實很明確的因應的做法那我最近其實也跟很多的企業在做相關的座談"},{"start":710.899,"end":716.782,"text":"好我希望這個指引你要盡快穿剛說是醫院嗎因為這件事情我認為對台灣整體是有傷害的有對於勞動人權我們形象的傷害有對於我們實質經濟出口的一個傷害所以這件事情因為你又是主責的部長我希望"},{"start":730.089,"end":747.945,"text":"你這邊要多花一點心力我們希望我們跟外籍移工都是雙贏不要演變成現在這個企業遭受損失然後勞權又受到傷害雙數的局面好不好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言那接下來請廖偉祥委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}