{"error":false,"id":["16534"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16534,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16534","日期":"2025-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-22-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-03-20T08:30:41+08:00","結束時間":"2025-03-20T14:10:00+08:00","影片長度":"05:39:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d4f190e5fa5d6a823e22f0a91eeef05037692a6bdb7e2f09fba9884bfa0d7b8555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:30:41 - 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第三位徐巧欣委員好 第四位楊瓊英委員好 那我們其次介紹與會官員我們非常謝謝教育部政務次長張廖萬堅次長張廖次長教育部國民及學前教育署署長彭復原彭署長教育部體育署署長鄭世忠鄭署長"},{"start":1928.871,"end":1956.715,"text":"教育部綜合規劃師副司長張金淑副司長教育部高等教育師曾興源副司長教育部技術級職業教育師專門委員陳玉君專委教育部中生教育師副司長顏寶月顏副司長教育部國際級兩岸教育師代理副司長藍仙倩代理副司長教育部師資培育級藝術教育師副司長王淑娟副司長"},{"start":1958.991,"end":1975.984,"text":"教育部資訊及科技教育師副司長 邱仁傑 邱副司長教育部學生事務及特殊教育師副司長 許家倩 許副司長教育部秘書處副處長 李啟光 李副處長教育部人事處 黃鴻鈞副處長"},{"start":1979.52,"end":1998.176,"text":"教育部會計處吳清潭副處長教育部法制處汪康定代理副處長教育部青年發展署副署長堪益聰副署長陳益聰抱歉農業部農糧署副署長黃昭興副署長農業部農糧署專門委員張瓊麟農業部畜牧師簡任繼政"},{"start":2009.369,"end":2015.83,"text":"逢逢逢一月嘛"},{"start":2016.792,"end":2038.498,"text":"月嗎好 不好意思逢一月 檢任繼政農業部漁業署鄭淑文檢任繼政衛生福利部衛福部食品藥物管理署副署長林金富副署長衛生福利部國民健康署研究員黃巧文研究員經濟部國際貿易署副署長鄭月婷副署長謝謝"},{"start":2040.612,"end":2044.234,"text":"好那我們也介紹我們也有另外一位委員到現場王宏威委員謝謝"},{"start":2059.787,"end":2086.116,"text":"好 那我們就現在先請提案委員進行提案說明那首先我們請洪孟楷委員進行提案說明謝謝主席各位委員以及在場的官員大家好本席針對學校公參法以及運動產業發展條例綜合作提案說明首先學校公參法"},{"start":2086.96,"end":2112.669,"text":"我國高中以下的學校飲食供應辦理情形從過去到現在大部分都辦理良好但還是存在少部分的食材安全營養不均餐費落差的情況也因此嚴重影響學生跟校園飲食的基本權益雖然現在現行的學校衛生法部分條文是已經有規範但僅做原則性的規範"},{"start":2114.338,"end":2136.212,"text":"對於我們所需要在另推的專法要符合當今學校飲食跟營養教育所需並且參考日本的學校給食給食法的立法宗旨學校飲食不僅是限於營養午餐的供給更應該兼具營養健康跟教育的目的也因此我們提出來"},{"start":2137.293,"end":2166.596,"text":"符合聯合國所提出的永續發展目標的指標讓我們的學生跟學校都能夠一起來訂立相關的專法而其中本席所提出來的學校公參法的專法包括實施對象中央地方的政府權責學校應該遵循的事項營養師等人員職長分工及合理的配置對於學生的飲食指導及營養教育以及學生作為資源使用者的政策參與"},{"start":2167.516,"end":2183.659,"text":"與全都能夠來健全期待能夠有完整的學校公餐體系未來我們也希望在召委的排審跟教育文化委員會大家共同的討論之下教育部能夠儘速的推出院版而"},{"start":2185.357,"end":2210.763,"text":"對於我們的學校營養午餐長久來看還是需要透過專法來保障經費穩定提升食品的安全促進營養的均衡以及強化監督的機制將環境永續跟食農教育都一起納入發展目標才能夠真真正正的確保每一個學生都獲得健康安全以及符合需求的營養餐食"},{"start":2212.56,"end":2238.803,"text":"在運動產業發展條例第24條及26條的條文修正裡面本席也看到過去在2021年曾經運動產業發展條例增訂26支2條有關營業事業捐贈職業或業餘運動的重點賽事的相關稅優惠的措施但是仍有不足之處尤其是已經經過了三年的時間我們更希望能夠來做進一步的強化"},{"start":2239.904,"end":2260.166,"text":"讓當初立法修法的美意不要打折因此本席提出鼓勵運動事業舉辦運動賽事或活動增加民眾參觀從事參觀性或參與性運動消費支出在24條之一明訂運動事業符合本條規定者請門票收入可免徵營業稅"},{"start":2261.667,"end":2276.225,"text":"另外在26條增訂第一項第六款明定營利事業推行促進全民運動發展的賽事或活動能夠不受金額的限制本次提案的修法鼓勵運動事業及民間團體多舉辦"},{"start":2280.24,"end":2296.569,"text":"運動賽事或是活動促進民眾觀賽的意願以及動機同時也給予運動員支持及關注進而營造運動產業良好的經營環境最終打造全民運動的正向循環而在運動產業發展條例本席很樂見"},{"start":2298.769,"end":2312.569,"text":"教育部已經有針對這個說明做出了正向的回應並且也說明行政院已經將運動產業發展條例修正案列為本會期的優先法案也因此我們期待能夠跟"},{"start":2314.136,"end":2338.664,"text":"行政部門立法部門大家共同的努力在這個會期裡面就能夠做出運動產業發展條例的修正讓我們的運動產業更加健全完整也展現政府的態度用實際的行動來支持我們的運動產業以上謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員提案說明接下來我們請王育民委員提案說明"},{"start":2344.673,"end":2369.06,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排學校公餐法法案的一個討論大家都知道我們全國的學童每一天很重要的營養午餐在學校裡面吃但是這一餐吃的是不是營養吃的是不是安全所有的家長都非常的關心今天有這麼多的委員提出學校公餐法"},{"start":2369.5,"end":2388.411,"text":"就代表這件事情其實是大家高度矚目的那本席這邊也提出了學校公餐法的專法主要是我看到我們現在現行的營養午餐還存在著許多的問題需要解決第一個其實我們在調查方面發現全國每一個月公餐的熱量有發生超過930大卡情形的有高達46%"},{"start":2397.597,"end":2417.463,"text":"前一陣子呢大家還發現小朋友吃的銀絲捲竟然捏出來通通都是油所以熱量超標這樣的情況需要把關第二個我們學校是食物中毒場所的第二名那所以過去都有一些的食安事件讓我們發現學校的食品衛生管理應該要有一個全國的專法好好的來把關第三個"},{"start":2425.225,"end":2441.291,"text":"像這個之前的蘇丹紅事件他四處流竄然後進到校園那就可以看到全國的縣市他們採取的標準是不一致的像在嘉義縣的教育局他就說這個蘇丹紅絕對不會流進我們學校結果馬上被打臉了這個實務已經流入校園那有的學校就比較積極採取事先預防的措施所以像這樣子這個全國不一致的情況"},{"start":2453.635,"end":2481.728,"text":"也應該透過一個中央的專法來給一個全面性的規範那所以這次本席提出來的學校公餐法總共有7張30條那這裡面比較重要的是我們應該要訂定專責單位制定公餐的規範而且應該要定期召開會議我們來做相關的這樣的一個孩子飲食的一個把關那第二個呢是我們必須建立食安的標準"},{"start":2483.189,"end":2487.551,"text":"而且讓這些人員可以定期的去研習進修來維持我們營養午餐的品質那第三個是我們賦予主管機關有這個稽查的權利去落實監督那如果有一些業者他是不合格的一個情況的話那就賦予公權利可以直接介入跟處罰"},{"start":2508.058,"end":2526.851,"text":"那第四個是長期來我關心弱勢學童的權益那這個學校午餐是弱勢學童一天當中最重要的一餐所以呢這個部分我們應該就是要建立起一個一致性的標準我們透過營養午餐我們供應這一些弱勢學生"},{"start":2527.952,"end":2551.92,"text":"在這個特別是偏鄉跟弱勢離島的這些孩子上面讓他們在營養午餐的費用的補助就是可以全部免費讓弱勢的孩子可以安心的在學校吃午餐那我們可以看到像日本跟韓國事實上他們都在幾十年前日本是在1954年早就有中央專法韓國在1981年就有中央專法比台灣"},{"start":2556.482,"end":2585.091,"text":"找了非常非常的多那雖然教育部之前有訂定這樣子的一個規範但它一直都不是一個中央的專法所以把它提升到一個中央的位階讓全國有一致性的標準然後讓我們的所有學校營養午餐的安全跟營養可以更加的落實我覺得這個是一個重要的工程所以希望透過這一次的修法我們可以提供給孩子一個既營養"},{"start":2586.451,"end":2589.414,"text":"又安全又健康的營養午餐以上謝謝"},{"start":2618.501,"end":2640.169,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天也是針對兒童食品安全公參法進行提案說明首先我們要講這個公參法其實大家已經關注很久包含教育部送了很久但是到現在都沒有院版變成是我們立法委員要自己來提案"},{"start":2640.689,"end":2654.625,"text":"但是跟過去的這個方式好像有所不同那我國經歷過重大的這麼多食安事件那新聞版面上都有報那引發國人對飲食品質的重視"},{"start":2655.646,"end":2676.429,"text":"那學校的家長呢也都很緊張餐點的品質食品的來源以及營養是否均衡都讓大家呢覺得很憂心那所以呢這些原則我們希望呢本來是略定於校園衛生法當中但是呢因為各地方政府自行自定"},{"start":2676.989,"end":2693.195,"text":"然后呢各地的财政状况跟城乡的民行不同那所以呢在这种多头马车的没有单一法源的适用之下呢第一线的执行单位其实会有无所依循产生很多权责不清的现象"},{"start":2693.835,"end":2717.113,"text":"所以學校共餐當然是學生他個人必要的使用事項用餐費也是屬於代辦代收費用但我們在檢視學生在校救援的生活作息這個一定是必然應該把它視為受教權的一項而且在少子化現象來說我們更應該要重視受教品質的提升"},{"start":2717.913,"end":2738.802,"text":"所以呢例如鄰近國家日本早在1945年韓國在1981年就已經制定了學校的幾十法為學童來做把關那考量學校的共餐由於一般的食品業者那我想呢應該有幾項是我們呢在學校營養午餐共餐法裡面必須要修訂的"},{"start":2740.063,"end":2753.059,"text":"所謂第一個是12年國教的涵蓋我們應該要把國小、國中、高中那教育部本來規劃的是9年國教可是現在我們已經是12年國教了所以學齡前教育的樣態也應該要把這個12年國教一起來納入"},{"start":2758.425,"end":2784.753,"text":"第二點呢是我們應該要建立公餐食材的採購平台那由農業部來主導然後我們呢透過這個食材的採購平台集貨配送那有安全的食品檢測機制並且簡化學校採購食材的行政程序那確保學校公餐的國產在地食材可以穩定提供那這一部分當然也需要教育部一起來配合"},{"start":2785.613,"end":2812.931,"text":"第三点我们应该要在学校里面设置营养师并且定定师生比因为我们发现在学校里面很多时候我们学生吃的东西我去翻过很多所学校他们所提供的午餐其实健康度来说都不是很高盐分经常有过高的情形还有他们的食物来说的话其实你说以营养师的角度来说"},{"start":2815.993,"end":2838.848,"text":"那我們都知道一個人在從小的食物對他的習慣對他這一生來說的健康都有很大的影響比方說像有一些小朋友從小現在爸媽有觀念就給他吃少糖少鹽然後少油炸的這個清淡的飲食跟健康的飲食你會發現等到他開始上學之後他會習慣用這樣子的飲食"},{"start":2843.911,"end":2869.194,"text":"那對他未來長久的教育發展來說甚至他長大成人來說都會能夠保持的比較健康所以這12年國教當中呢我們建議參考日本的營養師編制基準學生數超過500名的學生學校應該要增設營養師的職位不足500人的學校由地方的教育局來分配跨校的應聘"},{"start":2869.774,"end":2896.205,"text":"那營養師不只是幫忙計算審查每餐的營養所需那飲食的教育推動特殊的個案也可以在校園當中即刻的介入那還有呢廚工與工餐比數這個人數的比例定定我們工餐的品質跟廚工的多寡有密不可分的關係日本來講的話他們的校園廚工跟學生的比例大概是1比80到100"},{"start":2898.166,"end":2912.706,"text":"那考量到國人人口老化的現象跟衝擊勞動力的市場其實我們可以逐步訂定這個提高除工的人數讓除工的人數以1比100為最終的目標"},{"start":2915.049,"end":2932.175,"text":"我們看到日本的人口老化非常嚴重但他們都可以做到所以台灣也一定可以最後一項就是中央專責督導專業並且督導單位並且要聯合的來稽查提高我們學子的重視他的食安層級"},{"start":2933.215,"end":2959.165,"text":"教育部我建議應該要設置專責的單位負責管理跟督導學校辦理公餐的行政業務並且明定每學年至少一次會同衛生農業單位定期針對校園公餐環境安全衛生以及他們在所謂的標案的時候是否有貪污舞弊的行刑進行一個規範跟抽查"},{"start":2959.685,"end":2974.377,"text":"那這就是我們在學校營養五餐法飲食共餐法裡面主要我們來提供的一個幾個四項的五項的方案那也希望中央能夠採納謝謝大家謝謝許巧欣委員接下來有請楊瓊英委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2984.924,"end":2985.164,"text":"梁美芬議員"},{"start":3000.7,"end":3000.8,"text":"主席"},{"start":3031.461,"end":3052.074,"text":"產業發展條例第24條及26條這個條文修正草案那也請我們所有的委員以及行政院呢那好好的來討論我們希望能夠讓法案通過真正的全民運動我們也希望行政院呢在院版的方面也希望盡速來提出共同的來討論"},{"start":3053.275,"end":3057.877,"text":"第二項是學校營養午餐本院委員楊瓊英、廖偉翔、黃建豪、蘇清泉、羅廷偉、牛許廷等21人有鑒於現行的學校飲食規範 散落在相關的規定"},{"start":3071.542,"end":3089.747,"text":"中央跟地方的權責未有明確的一個規範那鄰近的日本跟韓國分別在1954年以及1981年就已經訂定了學校幾時法那建立完整的學校公餐的一個制度為校園午餐的安全來把關"},{"start":3090.467,"end":3105.014,"text":"而且目前我們學校午餐供應我們出現了城鄉的一個差距偏鄉的午餐菜色以及食材與都市的地區都有落差顯見學校午餐的資源存在著"},{"start":3105.794,"end":3109.399,"text":"為了平衡學校營養午餐發展不均的情況並提升校園午餐的品質使學童能夠享有營養均衡並堅固的生活"},{"start":3121.235,"end":3136.769,"text":"的食品安全的午餐呢那讓台灣的校園公餐系統日區的完善保障學童受照顧的一個權益所以你覺得學校公餐條例草案我們也希望在共同的一個討論也希望原版"},{"start":3138.63,"end":3141.553,"text":"能夠盡速的來提出讓這一個專法讓我們在執行者有所本讓我們的學童在吃的營養跟吃的安全都能夠得到飲食的一個保障那麼其中在第七條裡頭我們特別要提出也就是明定"},{"start":3156.989,"end":3181.257,"text":"中央主管機關那麼因統籌辦理學校的午餐成立學校午餐來精進整個諮詢的委員會或相當的這個性質的一個組織研擬學校午餐發展政策與方針那麼重要是在組織以及運作方式呢在中央主管機關來訂定之重點在於這一個"},{"start":3183.058,"end":3203.937,"text":"午餐的教育綱領必須要兩年至少要檢討一次學校的午餐精進諮詢委員會的組成專家學校的團體學者團體的代表以及現任的家長不得低於三分之一委員任意性別"},{"start":3205.498,"end":3234.177,"text":"這個比例呢不得低於三分之一那前將的委員遴選組織以及運送方式由主管機關來訂定之我們也就是希望能夠有一個公正而且讓大家都能夠有所本在監督或者在諮詢方面都能夠非常的清楚換句話說也就是所有的家長大家非常關心的希望我們的孩童可以吃的安全吃的營養吃的均衡"},{"start":3236.981,"end":3245.675,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員說明接著有請王洪威委員進行提案說明那因為我們今天提案說明人數很多那請大家簡短發言 謝謝"},{"start":3247.964,"end":3275.7,"text":"好谢谢主席那我就针对我所提案包含学校饮食健康促进法草案以及运动发展运动产业发展条例的修正草案来做提案说明在学校饮食健康促进法案里面那大家也知道就是到目前为止我们的学校公餐并没有专法那么而且呢我们现在有"},{"start":3276.661,"end":3300.359,"text":"在台湾包含直辖市还有各县市那么事实上也有一些的城乡差距所以有必要去定定一个统一的公餐的制度啊不要让我们的孩子在这个营养午餐在健康这个营养的部分呢出现了这样的一个落差那所以呢我提出来的草案重点啊"},{"start":3300.799,"end":3314.935,"text":"包括第一明確中央跟地方政府的權責劃分而建立統一的學校公餐標準第二學校應該設置公餐及飲食教育推動小組會議來辦理學校飲食"},{"start":3318.499,"end":3333.536,"text":"食品安全膳食的采购厂商集合以及其他学校公餐及饮食教育的相关事项而这个成员应该包括了外聘的专家还有营养师教师家长学生等等"},{"start":3334.537,"end":3351.714,"text":"第三规范学校公餐的方式鼓励学校能够制设厨房确保食材来源是可溯源而且优先采用国产在地优良食材第四民地学校营养师的职责公餐人员及厨工的规范"},{"start":3352.535,"end":3368.085,"text":"第五 中央应该编列预算协助办理及推动学校公餐还有饮食的教育第六 加强食品安全以资讯透明化要标示过敏源的资讯"},{"start":3368.945,"end":3393.351,"text":"第七 推動飲食教育跟習食教育讓學生能夠培養好的飲食習慣接下來報告在運動產業發展條例的修正我們都知道其實在台灣運動人口越來越多但是我們很多的運動賽事在官方來辦的大概它的資金來源來自於運產來挹注運動發展基金或者是公務預算"},{"start":3398.692,"end":3426.614,"text":"那么在民间的话也确实有很多的大企业或者是一些体育协会在长期任养但是呢很可惜的它比较长期是专注在某些特定的体育活动上面可是事实上台湾在多元发展体育活动并不仅仅只是在集中在一些少数的体育项目所以为了让我们的民间能够"},{"start":3427.515,"end":3445.38,"text":"举办运动赛事而且这些活动能够更加的扩大所以在这边我提出要修正运动产业发展条例那么在运动相关事业及体育团体"},{"start":3446.32,"end":3468.659,"text":"举办的运动赛事或活动如果符合加值型及非加值型营业税法第八条第一项第五款规定者他的门票收入免征营业税那么盈利事业于推行及提升全民运动发展之赛事或活动进行之捐赠"},{"start":3469.5,"end":3489.373,"text":"其金额不受限制用这样的方式能够导入更多的民间资金投入更多项的一个运动活动体育活动跟运动赛事以上报告谢谢谢谢王洪威委员的发言接下来我们请罗廷伟委员进行提案说明"},{"start":3502.09,"end":3519.599,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉今天排審我想這個台灣學生的營養午餐問題日益受到社會的關注所有家長都非常希望在這一次能夠有學生營養午餐法也就是學校公餐法的一個草案能夠早點來到立法院討論並且能夠落實"},{"start":3521.3,"end":3549.84,"text":"我想現在特別在外送平台的業務蓬勃的發展之際學生身心的發展與飲食的健康更是現在多數所有各界關心的一個重點然而針對學校公餐以及飲食教育的相關事項目前都沒有制定專法僅在學生學校以及衛生法中訂定有五條規定並無法涵蓋學校公餐所面臨的各種問題"},{"start":3551.481,"end":3562.153,"text":"現行各地方政府因財政的狀況還有其他的因素造成各地方的政府以及學校公餐飲食教育成多頭馬車這就是現在的心態"},{"start":3563.464,"end":3580.289,"text":"無法建立較為一致符合最基本要求來讓我們學校公餐的一個飲食教育有制度化還此現在我們對於高級中等以下的學校午餐的一個品質提供健康營養午餐以及"},{"start":3581.289,"end":3598.862,"text":"安全衛生的飲食促進身心健全發展尊重自然環境的教育目的奠定國民健康的基礎所以在這一次呢我們希望透過這個草案我們來立法來改善地方政府學校辦理公餐的一個困境我們要再一次的強調"},{"start":3599.963,"end":3629.343,"text":"不只是單純的公餐的過程我們希望有專法能夠來保障所有孩子在所有的飲食健康的一個權益之外包括學校的營養午餐秘書包括廚工相關等等整個產業的連結都是希望能夠在這一次草案中能夠獲得去探討來訂定之後維護我們學校學生"},{"start":3630.163,"end":3634.946,"text":"老師 廚工 相關等等的權益大家一起來努力 謝謝"},{"start":3652.913,"end":3675.569,"text":"會應應運動部於今年8月正式掛牌成立強化我國體育政策的統籌與資源的整合進一步活絡體育經濟培養運動的人才提升全民運動的風氣本席提出相關稅制的優化的措施首先是針對運動賽事的門票收入給予營業稅的減免第二是鼓勵企業投入資源"},{"start":3676.77,"end":3692.531,"text":"推動全民運動期待能夠填補現行運動產業發展條例的不足鼓勵社會各界投入運動產業促進國家整體的競爭力讓台灣的體育環境可以更好運動比賽可以更精彩創造更多的工作機會帶動運動產業的發展"},{"start":3695.254,"end":3714.821,"text":"本席提案修訂第24條明定運動事業及體育團體舉辦之運動賽事或活動符合加值型及非加值型業稅法第8條第1項第5款規定的運動賽事或活動也就是經認定有公共利益推動運動性質比賽門票收入可以免徵運動"},{"start":3716.621,"end":3742.376,"text":"可以免徵營業稅讓主辦單位把省下來的錢更有效率的運用在賽事品質的提升選手的福利或更多民眾參與的推廣上另外修正第26條明定推行及提升全民運動發展之賽事或活動得依所得稅法第36條第一款之規定以費用劣質且不受金額的限制該措施進一步鼓勵企業積極舉辦"},{"start":3744.157,"end":3766.883,"text":"贊助及支持全民運動相關的活動推動社會大眾養成運動習慣提升國民整體的健康水平這些措施不僅強化企業社會責任的實踐更形塑健康永續的企業形象同時也發揮民間的力量減輕政府推動全民運動的財政壓力形成公私協力的正向循環"},{"start":3768.003,"end":3771.766,"text":"運動部的成立象徵台灣體育發展新時代的來臨並提升全民運動促進經濟的專業的發展積極推動運動產業積極的國際參與為次大目標這不僅是對運動界的重大利多也是台灣整體產業發展"},{"start":3785.634,"end":3794.439,"text":"與國民生活品質的提升的重要契機本席提案希望通過減稅的方式鼓勵企業積極的參與國內運動賽事的活動帶動經濟成長的產值的成長並為運動人才提供更多發展的平台跟資源創造體育經濟與社會福祉雙贏的局面謝謝"},{"start":3808.9,"end":3815.702,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關所長官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生今天我們要審查的一個重要的法案"},{"start":3831.55,"end":3854.79,"text":"在諸多提案委員當中有的稱之為學校公餐法有的稱為學校午餐法也有稱為學校飲食法或是營養飲食法營養健康法飲食教育法諸多這些條目都要告訴我們一件事情學校是什麼地方學校是一個國家提供讓國民進行學習受教育的地方"},{"start":3855.575,"end":3870.428,"text":"但是在這個地方這個學校為何我們今天諸多立法委員要來推動將公餐或午餐或營養或飲食納入到學校的服務範疇大家可以看一看中華民國憲法第160條"},{"start":3871.929,"end":3885.696,"text":"提到了基本教育跟補習教育他說六歲至十二歲之學齡兒童一律受基本教育免納學費這就是我們義務教育的由來其貧苦者由政府供給書籍"},{"start":3887.213,"end":3910.391,"text":"不知道大家有沒有注意到在上個世紀將近八十年前那時候的中華民國的狀態政府要給人民受免費的國民教育但是學習所需要的書籍還必須貧苦者政府才能幫他負擔因此過去以來我們認為學校是讓人民受教育學習"},{"start":3911.932,"end":3929.72,"text":"但是公餐飲食這是家長的事情家長你要養孩子育孩子教育的部分學校幫忙分攤但是連書籍都要憑負責才政府協助供應的憑什麼政府要來負擔學童的飲食呢"},{"start":3930.6,"end":3955.25,"text":"別忘了這是一個上個世紀將近80年前的國家思維時至今日我們看到在學校教育裡面我們不是只有書籍可以來促進教育我們還有包括很多的設施甚至在學童學期期間他所必要的飲食跟營養這也是我們學校教育當中必須涵蓋的一部分"},{"start":3956.555,"end":3974.451,"text":"這個觀念上的進步促成了今天諸多委員我們紛紛提出了各種名稱不同的版本其目的就是希望我們國家正式對國民提供教育其中一項國家政府的義務就是包括提供學生在這段學期期間他所必要的營養飲食"},{"start":3975.933,"end":4004.631,"text":"好了還好憲法呢是有擴充性的在憲法規定的第一底線下我們往前延伸我們政府擴大它的服務同時我們也不要忽略了在憲法第163條國家應注重各地區教育之均衡發展並推行社會教育以提高一般國民之文化水準邊緣及平級地區之教育經費由國庫補助之說到什麼"},{"start":4005.683,"end":4027.736,"text":"所以其實教育的服務其實會有一些中央跟邊陲的不均所以中央政府在提供這樣的國民教育學校服務的時候特別要注重到對於偏遠偏鄉地區的特別照顧避免國民無法得到均值的服務因此本席所提出的學校午餐法跟其他委員"},{"start":4029.197,"end":4055.303,"text":"大多相同但是其中最重要的一項就是第13條在偏遠山地及離島地區居民有其公餐需求者公餐單位應會同相關機關辦理公餐看到這個條文大家嚇一跳不只是對於偏鄉地區要提供額外的補助連該地區的居民也要納入服務居民是我們國民教育學校教育的服務對象嗎"},{"start":4056.303,"end":4071.525,"text":"大家想想看一個學校在一個偏鄉的社區裡面他不是只是教育那個社區的新生人口我們也提到國民教育是全能全生涯的教育因此學校的設立尤其在偏鄉地區因為人口稀薄"},{"start":4072.426,"end":4099.958,"text":"他的提供餐飲的設備往往畏懼經濟規模因此如果只以學童為學校午餐的供應對象將無法發揮政府投資這些餐飲設施的效能因此本席特別在第13條當中加入了在偏鄉地區政府要積極地推動學校飲食的相關補助之外也應該將偏鄉的居民納入到這個服務的範圍"},{"start":4101.258,"end":4118.145,"text":"以促成該地區受教育學生的君子福利當然居民在學校也得到這樣的服務的同時更加能夠發揮偏鄉學校對於國民全生涯教育國民教育的功能以上 謝謝"},{"start":4120.227,"end":4132.671,"text":"謝謝中嘉賓委員說明那接下來我們還有兩位委員進行提案說明陳秀寶委員跟葉元之委員那我們先請陳秀寶委員進行提案說明 謝謝那我們時間稍微減短 謝謝謝主席"},{"start":4138.038,"end":4163.81,"text":"我們的孩子們從國小到高中在學校都有公餐的情況下孩子們將會有超過十年的時間每天至少都在學校享用一次的營養午餐甚至到了國中高中有晚自習會有兩次在學校食用餐食的機會也因此學校提供的餐食的營養環境的衛生及品質的把關至為重要也對孩子們的健康跟安全息息相關"},{"start":4165.868,"end":4171.611,"text":"而也因為學校餐食是孩子每天都會食用的本期的版本是強調除了營養健康我們透過學校提供的餐食來讓孩子認識食材推廣健康飲食的意識提升孩子們對食品安全衛生的認知"},{"start":4182.637,"end":4186.859,"text":"同時結合台灣在地的優質農產品及特色飲食文化強化在地食材與人文歷史的連結兼顧飲食的衛生安全與對台灣農產品的認識發揚飲食文化延續台灣特色飲食的技藝然而受到才化法倉促修法的影響"},{"start":4201.266,"end":4204.729,"text":"中央行政各機關各區分出將近百分之三十到各縣市政府本期希望教育部這邊應該要跟各地的縣市政府進行溝通針對營養師的設置飲食秘書這個新增的經費研議多少的比例該由地方的縣市政府自行來負擔"},{"start":4221.363,"end":4223.984,"text":"並且應該要與教師家長學生團體進行學校飲食相關法規的事項來做意見交流不能我們訂了學校飲食法之後卻因為才化法我們整個財政的分配無法執行希望在充分溝通之後"},{"start":4239.733,"end":4253.225,"text":"我們可以請教育部盡速的提出院版的學校飲食法一起跟委員們的版本進行審議以利三讀後通過之後可以順利的推動相關的事項謝謝謝謝陳秀寶委員簡短發言那我們接下來有請葉元之委員進行提案說明"},{"start":4280.061,"end":4292.204,"text":"我這邊也有提一個學校公餐營養健康促進法因為國外也有類似這樣的一個法律而且國外實施這樣的法律之後也有實證研究證實說有力專法確實跟學生的營養健康各方面都有發展跟促進當然在我們國內我們也常遇到一個問題就是現在營養午餐的"},{"start":4305.587,"end":4329.816,"text":"提供比例越來越高可是普及率高但問題是他真的有達到營養均衡的目的嗎我覺得這個是我們現在想要去解決問題那第二個是現在全台灣的營養午餐的供應能呈現多頭馬車跟一國多智的狀態比如說有的縣市他可能有弱農那可能營養午餐裡面就可以多喝牛奶像以新北市來講的話他們就"},{"start":4331.096,"end":4350.015,"text":"特別有有機蔬菜可以吃就變成一種並沒有全國就全國各行一市但有沒有一個統一的制度所以在我的版本裡面我們有訂定相關的一些辦法希望能夠來提高學生的營養以及做食農教育"},{"start":4350.535,"end":4375.093,"text":"譬如說希望能夠增設專責的單位然後設立專任的午餐秘書而且要有營養師由營養師專任的午餐秘書來把關務必讓學生在吃營養午餐的時候可以達到健康的均衡已經達到營養的促進那進而可以發展食農教育然後甚至於可以做到食食教育以上 謝謝"},{"start":4378.241,"end":4385.635,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的簡短發言我想接著我們就有請教育部張料次長進行報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":4392.999,"end":4420.889,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好本人今日應邀列席就學校公參法草案運動產業發展條例條文修正草案進行報告僅向各位委員長期對於學校供應學生學生膳食及運動產業發展之關心與指導表達衷心的感謝並請各位委員繼續給予教育部業務督導及支持 僅說明如下一 背景說明本部積極重視學生午餐"},{"start":4421.929,"end":4447.68,"text":"前業已擬具高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案並依據地方制度法規定我國學校午餐業務屬於地方自治事項相關人力配置午餐收費等須尊重地方政府因地制宜做法令去年因為財政收支劃分法的修正與本條例經費補助事項息息相關原本"},{"start":4448.919,"end":4470.453,"text":"本部每年補助經濟弱勢學生午餐經費已高達21億學校午餐採用國產可塑原食材補助每年高達38億推動偏鄉學校中央廚房計劃每年也有15億每年總計已經補助的款項已經有74億這部分希望回歸由地方來負擔"},{"start":4471.714,"end":4494.174,"text":"此外就各委員所提版本及關切事項包含新增營養師、午餐、執行秘書專職化以及廚房設備等如果修法完成累計超過至少26億那麼未來每年總計有超過100億移由地方來負擔那這個部分需要持續進一步與地方政府來溝通協調"},{"start":4495.535,"end":4502.321,"text":"另外有關運動產業發展條例為推動促進運動產業發展所訂定之法源依據包括健全職業運動產業發展"},{"start":4505.035,"end":4530.211,"text":"並推動相關業與運動加速職業化的進程及重點運動賽事提供營利事業租稅優惠誘因因應運動產業環境變化提供運動產業相關的輔導與講助由多位委員提出的相關修正草案在此感謝各位委員對於運動產業的支持與關心那麼行政院已經將運動產業法案條例列為本會期的優先法案建議委員提案與行政院"},{"start":4531.496,"end":4554.249,"text":"的版本來並案審議那麼其能攜手完善運動產業的發展環境第二教育部針對委員所提各草案做一個簡要的回覆一 營養午餐法的部分教育部回覆如下第一有關適用對象考量幼生年齡較小其供餐模式以高級中等以下學校不同另一有完備的法源依據所以原建議以高級中等"},{"start":4554.949,"end":4561.375,"text":"以下學校為適用對象第二午餐收費及食材費用佔比考量學校公餐標準"},{"start":4562.196,"end":4587.523,"text":"一致並避免各地差異過大影響學生營養權益原建議學生午餐費之費額考量因素與決定程序及食材費用佔學生午餐費之比例由中央主管機關會商地方主管機關定資以使各地方政府或學校與調整午餐費之相關考量及決定程序有所依循三"},{"start":4588.203,"end":4610.636,"text":"學校營養師及廚工之配置基準學校午餐不論是廚房管理、菜單的設計、食材的採購、驗收等作業需專業人員辦理為學校營養師設置標準關係學校人事員而編制的限制而且增加了各地方財政裁員及財政負擔等問題仍需與地方政府、延商取得共識並參考鄰近國家的標準來修訂"},{"start":4613.698,"end":4634.19,"text":"另有關儲工資配置比例考量不同公餐形態及公餐規模及儲工資聘任也應該尊重地方政府應地制以來定制第四 午餐執行秘書職責由教師兼任應檢授課結束那麼學校衛生法以明定學校應指定專責單位及專責人員"},{"start":4636.452,"end":4664.77,"text":"負責規劃設計推動學校午餐工作令多數委員建議黨由教師兼任應減授其授課時數查直轄縣市政府所屬國民小學及國民中學辦理學校午餐應注意事項以明訂教師得兼任學校午餐執行秘書並得以減少授課時數其相關規定由主管機關定之本部會持續跟地方政府來會商來精進相關的獎勵措施"},{"start":4666.131,"end":4686.632,"text":"學校或午餐供應業者違反相關規定之裁罰本部定有高級中等以下學校執行校園食品規範的督導考核要點對於違反規定之學校有相關的獎懲機制另外業者的部分可以依契約範本食品安全衛生管理法裁罰的標準及相關規定辦理原建議裁罰規定無需重複認定"},{"start":4688.354,"end":4704.5,"text":"第六農業及地方主管機關建置食材採購平台那麼學校衛生法規定學校供應膳食應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證之在地優良農業產品那麼學校午餐使用的這個三張一Q的食材從"},{"start":4707.534,"end":4728.544,"text":"從106年到113年已經達到了98.67%那麼各縣市在食材採購上已經自行運用方式本部會配合農業部及地方政府審慎規劃逐步進行那麼第二呢有關運動產業發展條例教育部回覆如下一委員省發會等19人萬美林等19人擬拒之第二條條文修正案"},{"start":4729.284,"end":4754.762,"text":"那麼修正主管機關委運動部原建議維持現行條文並配合運動部成立的期程在公告管轄變更方式來辦理第二委員林倩琦等二十二人拟據第四條條文修正草案委員提案中央主管機關應針對運動博弈業訂定運動博弈業管理辦法及運動經濟管理顧問或行政管理業應訂定運動經紀人管理辦法一節本部考量"},{"start":4755.642,"end":4780.702,"text":"運動博弈業屬於特許行業採高密度管理機制且已經訂定了運動彩券發行條例並依該條例授權訂定運動彩券管理辦法以管理運動彩券發行的相關事項另外運動經濟管理顧問及或行政管理業者由於運動產業人才多元且各具專業獨特性較不宜以通案方式規範並由政府介入管理建議維持現行條文並將"},{"start":4783.524,"end":4797.424,"text":"就定義的內容及範圍的部分納入未來運動產業的內容及範圍來研修評估三委員柯之恩等22人委員張志倫等18人委員洪孟凱等17人委員黃鴻威等19人委員區域"},{"start":4798.966,"end":4814.478,"text":"徵等17人委員萬美玲等19人及委員楊秋英等27人女拒運動產業發展條例第24條第26條條文修正案委員所提涉及租稅公平及一致性監獄與行政院版本並案審議學生健康"},{"start":4816.212,"end":4834.771,"text":"學生健康實育率是國家未來競爭力的重要基石本部致力於培養學生正確的飲食觀念以及感恩惜食的生活教育目標與照顧學生的健康成長那麼運動產業發展條例是為了推動運動產業的法源依據行政院已將運動產業發展條例的修正案列為本會期的優先法案"},{"start":4835.351,"end":4858.369,"text":"本次各委員所提有關修正法規主管機關原商運動產業的內容及範圍提升租稅優惠的誘因及相關的範疇等感謝各委員的關心及支持運動產業發展期望透過行政院的版本與本次委員提案完備相關法制健全運動產業發展並提供國人優質的運動休閒環境以上報告 敬請各位委員予以指教 謝謝"},{"start":4861.163,"end":4866.716,"text":"謝謝張廖次長口頭報告我們接下來有請農業部黃昭新副署長報告報告時間三分鐘"},{"start":4892.731,"end":4893.413,"text":"主席 各位委員 農業部"},{"start":4897.026,"end":4926.066,"text":"農業部報告農業部在這一次的學校午餐法審查裡面我們農業部報告的部分包括推動學校午餐使用國產可溯源食材辦理的情形農業部在從106年開始配合教育部共同推動學校午餐採用在地食材政策鼓勵學校採用有機"},{"start":4927.626,"end":4950.011,"text":"產銷履歷優良產品以及溯源的農產品追溯條碼的3Q食材提升效源食材可溯源性確保學童吃到來源明確優質安全的國產食材那在國產食材的供應部分在產銷履歷的部分我們從農糧產品從107年"},{"start":4955.772,"end":4961.456,"text":"總共有15000多公頃成長到114年2月成長到109500多公頃成長率達到687%那在水產品的部分也成長了40.32%在情緒產品已經代產品的部分跟106年比較起來也成長了132.03%"},{"start":4986.052,"end":4993.458,"text":"在推動有機有膳耕作的部分有機產品的驗證面積到114年2月已經達到20489公頃"},{"start":5004.861,"end":5007.405,"text":"在溯源產品的部分到114年2月也達到了91827公頃"},{"start":5019.144,"end":5030.5,"text":"那整個我們有三張一Q的這個可溯源的這個食材到114年2月全國的各縣市登錄的比數佔比已經達到98.81%那在"},{"start":5037.887,"end":5045.315,"text":"校園食材的這個抽驗的部分每年我們抽驗目標是3000在農糧產品的部分有3000件序產品的部分有8000件魚序產品有3000件"},{"start":5053.953,"end":5080.267,"text":"那合格率到在農糧產品的部分是有96.6%漁畜產品有達到100%那水產品是到99.4%那以上報告謝謝黃副署長的報告我們接下來有請衛生福利部林金富副署長報告報告時間三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":5088.328,"end":5115.3,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化委員會召開全體委員會議衛生福利部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸知就學校公餐法案提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教第一點本部食藥署針對學校午餐食品安全之相關規範"},{"start":5117.641,"end":5138.481,"text":"為維護校園學童食用安全、學校午餐所使用之食材、學校自設廚房與供應學校午餐團散業者均應符合食品安全衛生管理法的相關規定消暑持續透過跨部會合作確保校園午餐安全並規劃稽查專案"},{"start":5142.958,"end":5161.727,"text":"與地方衛生局合作每年至少積查一次學校自設廚房兩次團散業者如有查獲缺失皆依法處辦第二點本部國民健康署針對學校午餐營養及健康均衡飲食相關規範"},{"start":5163.525,"end":5177.019,"text":"為促進國人營養及健康飲食本部健康署依營養健康飲食促進法第十條所規定依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等"},{"start":5178.483,"end":5199.832,"text":"擬定國人膳食營養素參考攝取量每日飲食指南國民飲食指標等並發展我的餐盤均衡飲食圖像及口訣使民眾易於生活中落實均衡的飲食型態健康署協助教育部依營養及飲食建議攝取基準及飲食建議"},{"start":5202.987,"end":5228.278,"text":"由教育部訂定學校午餐食物內容及營養基準相關規範提供教育部推動飲食教育提升家長學童的健康適能最後為維護學童學校午餐食品安全衛生及健康營養並具有教育意義本部持續推動食品安全衛生及營養與飲食教育相關業務積極促進國人健康飲食"},{"start":5231.752,"end":5249.199,"text":"本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督在此靜置謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持 以上報告好 謝謝林副署長報告接下來我們有請財政部李立新副署長進行口頭報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":5260.235,"end":5267.349,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好那以下由財政部就運動產業發展條例社本部業務的部分檢要報告"},{"start":5270.61,"end":5289.822,"text":"一 各委員提案第24條運動賽事或活動門票收入免徵營業稅適用對象增訂運動事業的部分一 運動產業發展條例第24條立法說明營業稅法第8條第1項第5款規定教育文化機構提供的教育勞務免徵營業稅體育本屬教育的範疇"},{"start":5292.984,"end":5303.815,"text":"體育團體舉辦運動賽事或活動所收取的門票收入屬教育文化機構提供的教育勞務者得免徵營業稅運動事業依本條例第三條及第四條的規定它包含運動旅遊業、電子競技業及運動博弈業等產業其以營利為目的經營相關業務"},{"start":5314.424,"end":5331.169,"text":"與這個體育團體是以推展體育為宗旨依法設立的非營利組織不同不是營業稅法的所稱的教育文化機構所以他舉辦的運動賽事或活動的門票收入並沒有免徵營業稅的適用那第二是關於各委員提案第26條"},{"start":5332.409,"end":5345.535,"text":"增訂營利事業捐贈推行促進全民運動發展的運動賽事或活動得依所的稅法規定以費用列支不受金額限制的部分那營利事業目前他贊助體育活動或賽事的各項費用據廣告費性質的依所的稅法規定得以全額以廣告費列支那營利事業推行員工的體育活動"},{"start":5355.18,"end":5366.563,"text":"也可以依按職工福利費用或其他費用列資沒有金額的限制那一定是如果捐贈政府登記有案的體育團體那或者是舉辦員工參與的體育活動也可以依本條例第26條規定以費用列資"},{"start":5372.245,"end":5385.572,"text":"那綜上營利事業推動促進全民運動發展的體育活動支出目前已可以依支出項目分別適用相關的稅法規定列報不受金額限制那以上說明 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":5387.528,"end":5406.363,"text":"謝謝副署長口頭報告相關機關所提書面資料請一併參閱現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時間長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員、範圍委員質詢結束後"},{"start":5408.737,"end":5417.606,"text":"及進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯智恩委員提出質詢謝謝我們請張次長請張次長張廖次長備詢"},{"start":5426.844,"end":5454.004,"text":"谢谢科委员次长好我想在进入营养午餐专法的探讨之前我们先来澄清一件事情我想在这个人民投家的宣讲当中包括你们的委员还有包括非常多的网络在流传家长都在抗议说今年他们的小孩好不容易考上公费留考但是因为我们在野党删减的公费留学奖金的预算让这些学生没有办法留学"},{"start":5454.824,"end":5460.507,"text":"我想請張次長特別來說一下今年的留學獎金有被刪減或被凍結嗎這個部分柯木據我了解是沒有那在這個個案我們有去了解那我請那個細節我請那個我不是個案現在網路到處流傳然後你可不可以告訴我就你理解沒有來我先告訴你一下就我們查出來的資料當中很明顯的告訴我們這個教育部編列的國際人才是有一次"},{"start":5484,"end":5502.053,"text":"14亿8千多公费留考的举办留学生奖学金包括贷款是3407万这个完全是从我们的预算书里面特别出来的鼓励学生国外交流是4.8亿鼓励赴世界一流大学的奖学金是2.3亿还有世界大学合作的1.95亿"},{"start":5503.254,"end":5529.282,"text":"還不包括留學貸款的兩千多萬還有新南向國鄉產業實習的五億總共留學的獎學金是九億四千萬比去年七億還多增加一點三億請告訴我為什麼有這麼多的謠傳包括你們的立委在公開的場合告訴我們因為我們山我們洞所以讓這些學生沒有辦法出去請給我一個清楚的答案我想委員的這個資料非常清楚我們得到資料是這樣子"},{"start":5530.58,"end":5533.101,"text":"所以說太誇張太離譜好不好太離譜我的分貝98好不好這就是一個部分嘛所以我只能說這樣不有做澄清嗎你們如果選擇沉默難道是配合這樣的一個謠言嗎"},{"start":5546.548,"end":5553.491,"text":"我想不會去配合啦就是說因為網路有太多消息好 那很好啊那次長我們給你們一個機會教育部一向就需要把家長的concern放在心上因為這非常的重要不要讓家長去我也覺得啊留學好不容易考上怎麼可能會刪減呢所以呢你們有個即時新聞澄清網"},{"start":5566.517,"end":5584.359,"text":"我上网去看了一下真的不好意思我也不知道是什么理由停留在112年12月8号现在是应该我们有计算应该是114年吧对不对这叫及时澄清网次长你觉得你们是不是需要在这个地方做一个澄清让我们家长来放心一下呢"},{"start":5584.619,"end":5602.604,"text":"好我想這部分我們會來檢討來謝謝你所以說基本上趕快來做一個澄清啊否則我也希望教育部在你們的帶領之下面其實都非常理性的有如果讓家長有不安心的地方請趕快做一些澄清然後請問一下次長你們的預算什麼時候要送來解凍"},{"start":5603.8,"end":5617.608,"text":"我們預算已經在簽合了好 你趕快送上簡東以關跟教育有關的我們在場委員其實都會很願意來趕快去做趕快送上來我很怕有一些單位不送他好像到最後又是因為我們在動我們在閃我們覺得撐不起這樣子的一個謠言好不好謠言滿天飛"},{"start":5621.83,"end":5638.87,"text":"请把立即做澄清我们希望我们今天或明天看到让全国有公费留学的家长们放心在野党没有山也没有洞这是一个正确的资料好接下来我要问一下就是因为如此我还是忍不住要发声一下因为这位是跟我们是大学一样的同僚"},{"start":5639.471,"end":5660.348,"text":"大学教授愿意能够来到这个政府机关来服务我觉得都应该给予鼓励然后呢你们国立科学博物馆的馆长其实上是一个非常负责认真的我们过去呢去年也曾经到科博馆里面来做参访非常认真的告诉我们科博馆未来整个方向那我不晓得为什么会有逼退馆长这样一件事情"},{"start":5660.788,"end":5675.511,"text":"而且呢让所有的研究员研究员都在做研究他们竟然就是连署而且上诉到赖总统的部分里面请问你们现在也只是代理为什么要让一个很优秀的馆长却是被你们教育部给背请辞"},{"start":5676.212,"end":5691.761,"text":"我想我這邊得到的資料是交管長是在2月16號歸屆嘛那他是藉調他的任期是到7月31號對有什麼理由要讓人家在2月的時候就走人藉調沒有所謂我聽到的是藉調沒有所謂的任期啦就是說這個他就是藉調然後就是歸這個時間到"},{"start":5693.302,"end":5721.033,"text":"是他的理由事实上他想做到7月30而且他还在医院的时候呢曾经给全管发一封信希望大家能够为科博馆的未来能够做好一些预备的动作难道是因为他每一次都来我们这边希望我们周围能够帮他们争取预算争取到让你们教育部觉得这样的一个做法好像是太麻烦然后呢就因此明明是7月的时候可以让他去归件你们却在2月时候请人家走人"},{"start":5721.806,"end":5734.249,"text":"我想教育部這邊人事單位跟我講的說他們只有收到請辭的一個這個對不起次長他是被請辭你要不要再去了解一下所以往事已矣但是我認為一個非常優秀的館長而且願意為科博館來因為對我來說的話他是一個科博館的損失是你們教育部的損失你有機會的話你也認識這位館長然後呢基於對於他的優秀跟認真我覺得有必要因為這對於未來"},{"start":5749.372,"end":5769.666,"text":"所有要被借掉到我们教育部各单位里面来从事公职的教授而言这都是一个指标我请次长可以好好的来了解一下谢谢你了我们来了解对这是一个非常重要的我们不需要一个优秀的人才因为是怎么样不同的理由特别是跟庄委不断的希望能够给予更多的经费然后让大家觉得这个"},{"start":5770.146,"end":5789.154,"text":"认真过度以至于让其他人觉得到底发生什么事我希望这种事情不要再发生在教育部所属的单位所以请次长好好去了解一下接下来我们就来看看营养午餐的这个公法了我想我去年五月的时候在当招委的时候我就召开了学校午餐法制化的一个公听会那时候次长"},{"start":5789.534,"end":5807.807,"text":"当然不是你是一个林明玉政策来出席而且公听会到距离现在是到底多久了十个月过去了然后呢请问有关于学校影响午餐的立法是否还在原地打转然后呢为什么行政院不能把这个院板送来而且我还要提醒张廖次长在我们"},{"start":5808.905,"end":5832.796,"text":"一起在當第九任立委的時候我們就把這一個營養午餐把它提出來為什麼到現在我們兩個各自站在對面來做質詢的時候他還在原地打戰我想這個是一個從法的角度看但是從實質的內容法就是要提出更好的一個環境譬如說要增加人力要補助一些弱勢的孩童或者說這個營養三張一Q的這個食材擴大補助其實在108年最早108年嘛那時候我當立委的時候當然對對"},{"start":5838.218,"end":5853.838,"text":"那時候提出來之後事實上大家所提的那雖然說各界的意見不太一樣在整合中但事實上從109年開始當時的潘部長就說法沒有修我們資源先給所以不管是有關這個公立國中國民中小學的有沒有問題"},{"start":5855.18,"end":5872.923,"text":"但是我現在是回應到法的一個層面我要想了解教育部對於專法的一個態度我也看看你昨天很晚才送過來完全就是告訴我們說地方如何如何我們就一一來去看現在確實是遇到了就是說本來我們在去年11月20號已經送警政院就把布板的草案送了"},{"start":5873.063,"end":5877.266,"text":"但是12月20號的時候就發生了這個中央財政收支發放法的問題那我們都知道說剛才我在報告的時候有提過那事實上根據地方制度法來講學校國民中學小學的學校營養餐市長我們一一來釐清我們不要每一次都"},{"start":5891.658,"end":5914.283,"text":"都推給我們地方沒有問題我們現在來看嘛這其實最大的一個困難點還是到底我們政府可以投資多好的經費跟人力到底未來是中央跟地方治權怎麼樣分配這是後半段我現在只問到一個專法的部分你剛剛特別提到了院有院的板只是我們現在都沒看到院板長成什麼樣子我們修法會增加很多經費的投入就是提到地方的權限"},{"start":5916.624,"end":5922.447,"text":"就是說你修了法之後到底是要中央附地方所以你告訴我就說我們從那麼早開始到現在次長我們從我們第九任開始到現在所以因為裁劃法的關係讓原本要通過的部分開始又卡關所以我們現在裁劃法又開始要到釋憲又要開始到部分所以你是要告訴我們這麼樣一步可能可以推行的部分我們要等到釋憲完之後才要重新來看看這個釋權該怎麼樣"},{"start":5943.536,"end":5950.882,"text":"事實上從108年開始談營養午餐我們109年到111年的專案計畫已經投入了75.6億的補助我懂剛剛已經報告過了每年現在對於弱勢學童對於營養午餐的出發這沒有問題對於三張IQ每年74億這個沒有問題那修法之後會怎樣這怎麼會沒有問題不是我下次告訴你說你現在這個專法你們的態度是你們行政院會有這個版本出來現在只是在事權的部分我們需要做一個釐清嗎沒有錯"},{"start":5970.937,"end":5978.024,"text":"沒有錯你增加的費用跟現在負擔的費用都必須重新釐清嘛過去都有中央來出每年出74億修法之後最少再增加26億會有100億以上那100億都還是中央來出嗎那如果要地方出地方政府"},{"start":5987.233,"end":6011.656,"text":"市長我現在只是從時間軸的部分來說在這個財化法沒有公佈之前我們從第九任到現在顯然我們都沒有看到願版那現在有了一個財化法之後你告訴我因為財化法的部分才有我們就要追溯到更前面為什麼因為我們要討教事權之前還有很多條文因為我們有公辦公義有公辦民義有民辦民義有非常多委員你很清楚啦其實1153不是沒有"},{"start":6012.777,"end":6042.172,"text":"除了没有专法以外学校卫生法的第16条还有22条23条之123我觉得这个东西才是我们应该好好来厘清的我们应该好好来厘清特别是我要特别提到了像我们美农的龙渡国小里面你大家知道吗他们食农教育做得非常的好而且他们都可以自给自足可是呢就是因为有这样的一个专法中央厨房下来反而让这些做得非常好的一个地方的偏远的地方他们反而因为这样子让他们很多的很好的一个计划就因此受到"},{"start":6042.652,"end":6066.759,"text":"說到這樣部分所以我才說在專法的過程當中事權先我們是後面在這專法部分我跟你討論說以類似相對的部分來看每個地區都有他們自己的不同的部分我們如何能夠用這樣的法能夠保障這些原有的一個特色又可以讓很多的孩子因為這樣子而得到更好的一個部分我覺得這才是一個我們要討論的部分委員說你提得非常非常好"},{"start":6067.239,"end":6082.316,"text":"所以這就因地制宜嘛地方政府我們要尊重所以我才說在這個專法的這個層面上面有沒有把這些問題來考量至於你剛剛跟我一次argue那個只是在我們事權的分配上面那我們先從法條上面先一一來做釐清而且我所argue的點就是說我們這麼久以來"},{"start":6084.919,"end":6109.656,"text":"這個行政院的版本我們沒有看到要看到之前突然告訴我一個裁劃法讓我們這邊又要等到這個部分才能夠看到這是我剛剛跟你說我沒有否認說你這個市權該怎麼分配但是這個條文上面是否可以把我們剛剛所在乎的各地方的部分我覺得這才是他們的一個重點這部分我們會朝這個方向來協助我們有佈板啦隨時有佈板行程有佈板好 那就請我們剛剛講的即時澄清版請馬上讓我們可以看得到好 謝謝 謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":6115.081,"end":6121.287,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員質詢那次長請回座那接著我們繼續質詢那我們有請萬美玲委員質詢好 一樣我們有請張六萬今天次長請次長備質詢"},{"start":6134.471,"end":6159.391,"text":"次長,我想過去站在這邊是張亮萬堅委員現在站在那邊是張亮萬堅次長但是呢,以我過去我們一起在教育文化委員會我想各項的教育議題啊不管你在哪個位置,我認為你都不會改變這是對的嗎?沒有錯好,沒有錯我們在110年的時候本席跟您我們有一起參加過一個記者會,你有印象嗎?"},{"start":6161.36,"end":6182.967,"text":"記者會參加太多了太多了 這個記者會非常的重要在110年3月的時候當時我跟您還有跟黃國樹委員我們一起參加了營養師全國聯合會以及大小食育協會當時我們是要來支持這個飲食營養促進法那也就是現在我們大家一直在談的這個營養午餐專法也好這個午餐這個專法都好"},{"start":6186.568,"end":6202.527,"text":"那你看看110年到现在包括你刚刚所说的从108年109年到现在多少年过去了所以如果今天在这里我们是不是应该就要就营养午餐专访到底啊自然难行的地方在哪里我们准备到什么地方去讨论哦"},{"start":6202.927,"end":6221.854,"text":"所以我想剛才特別您跟柯政委員馬上就用這個才化法把這個問題就擋住了我個人覺得不太好所以我想今天我們好好的來討論一下我們現在營養午餐專法走到哪裡了那什麼地方應該再藉由這一次我們招委排的這個專報我們可以來更細緻的把它去做一個說明"},{"start":6226.756,"end":6243.303,"text":"現在我們來看您剛才也說到這個潘文忠部長過去也很支持也趕快要推那以前他也講過說這個營養53專法這個草案出來了他希望在該會期那個會期呢就要去完成所以大家都急嘛包括之前林明裕次長也有提過說我們要趕快來通過嘛"},{"start":6244.764,"end":6261.883,"text":"可是事實上就是到現在還沒看到半個影子院版也還沒有出來那部版其實有了但是現在我們還沒有辦法進行討論好 我們今天來看營養午餐專法何其重要我們在這邊要再重新來說一次好 我們看到現在在各縣市各校我們營養午餐的這個樣態非常非常的多"},{"start":6264.986,"end":6270.707,"text":"每一個縣市不同每一個學校不同樣態非常的多甚至還有一樣的樣態執行起來有不一樣的狀況跟效果出來所以營養午餐專法的重要我們看到營養午餐的這個統一規範其實我想中央是責無旁貸那地方執行當然也是要透徹所以我們來看過去不管是在102年發生了這個劣質遊的時候我們就會想到孩子的營養午餐怎麼樣然後蘇丹紅的時候我們也想到孩子的學校營養午餐會不會受影響"},{"start":6294.931,"end":6309.499,"text":"萊豬事件我們也曾經在這邊要修過一起要修過這個學校衛生法第23條等等就是一旦有食安的事情我們想到都是學校的問題所以我想這個養生專法真的非常的重要當然現在不管是學校衛生法"},{"start":6310.759,"end":6332.364,"text":"好 我們教育部來主責的食農教育法 農業部主責的營養及健康飲食促進法 衛福部主責的但是我們就是沒有一個專法所以我們在地方上在執行營養午餐的時候其實有的時候真的沒有一個統一的規則我覺得造成地方很大的困擾那我也相信你來自於地方你一定知道好 我們再看到2025年2月的時候 也就是今年2月"},{"start":6337.385,"end":6362.432,"text":"監委的一個調查報告上面指出教育部他直指教育部沒有落實這個對營養午餐的一個把關那我們看到現在很多的學校營養午餐這個不管是熱量超標這個很常見然後水果乳品分配不足這個也是有的炸物過多可能為了要討好孩子的口味然後以及我們不管是這個加工品 拌製品過多"},{"start":6364.232,"end":6384.722,"text":"其實這些都是監察院的報告出來的所以他也直指這是嚴重的影響了學生的健康發展而且呢他也說了沒有訂定這個學校午餐專法要求教育部要改進所以這個應該是我們學校也好老師也好學生家長或者您跟我"},{"start":6385.602,"end":6413.488,"text":"監察院大家都知道這個要快所以呢像現在如果我們沒有統一的標準我舉個例子喔也是來自於您的所在的區域台中喔在我們面對這個萊豬這個事件的時候你看台中市政府的態度跟中央就不一樣台中市政府就是更嚴格的去把關好後來呢我想我們中央有意見但是我們現在看到像這個萊豬之爭台中市政府最後還是贏了也就是說大家都知道實案的把關才是要用最高的標準來看的喔"},{"start":6413.908,"end":6439.122,"text":"所以呢 好 那這個次長 我們現在回過頭來把這些問題都把它釐清過來包括 營養午餐專法如果沒有制定下來 沒有一個統一的標準我們看到我們的食安的管理恐怕還是會有很多的漏洞出現那專法呢 不管是我們去規範這個食材的供應廠商的資格啦或者茶盒啦 或者這個食材追溯的一些相關制度啊 這都是會有的"},{"start":6439.582,"end":6443.408,"text":"那另外呢也就是呢過去我們一起都在講的不管是我們營養師或廚工的這個不足啊我想透過的專法也會有一個相當的保障那再來我們不管是在菜單還有這個營養的上面我們也一直都很在乎嘛"},{"start":6455.126,"end":6472.002,"text":"可是如果今天有專法我們在營養師跟廚工上面給予他們更多的支持我想在這個菜單跟營養上面我覺得我們可以做得更好那最後我想這個經費跟補助上面這個問題就更大了我想我們特別來講到這個經費我想次長應該知道我們現在各縣市各校真的是吃營養午餐的那個價格完全不一樣"},{"start":6479.409,"end":6500.602,"text":"我在想少的有二三十塊這個一餐的三四十塊一餐多的有七八十塊九十塊一餐的孩子都一樣啊每一個孩子都應該是平等的但我們卻有這樣的落差也許你要告訴我說食材的來源不一樣啊有的舊地啊舊境啊什麼的但是呢我們是不是就是應該要制定一個專法那在專法之下我們怎麼去保障說在成本之外"},{"start":6500.942,"end":6528.64,"text":"我們要用這個可以有透明公開的方式不是說大家吃的不一樣那你看現在又有的是這個使用者付費那有的就是這個可能這個縣市是完全免費這很亂很奇怪啊那你看如果完全免費的就是因為這樣所以很難有一個專門來市長如果完成免費的不不不你這個說法其實很不對喔我應該這樣講你在那個位置你這樣說你今天在這個位置上過去你也是這樣講我在那個位置我一樣也是知道"},{"start":6528.78,"end":6533.944,"text":"沒有 過去在這個位置的講法是什麼正因為有這麼多的問題所以我們才要制定專法不是因為有這麼多問題所以專法很難制定不是這樣子的說法啦所以次長你也知道有這麼多問題那因為要解決這麼多問題我們要趕快把專法制定起來而不是你剛剛這樣說的這有一點本末倒置所以我在想剛剛我們提到這個還有經費上的問題這也應該要統一也要公開也要透明嘛所以呢我想專法的制定"},{"start":6556.282,"end":6580.188,"text":"這一次我真的跟您站在完全不同立場看這件事所以才要快速而不是說這麼複雜所以就沒有辦法做所以我們剛剛也都知道說我們希望有一個中央層級的專法出來那過去您自己我昨天再回頭看了一下當時我們開記者會您的說法我想跟本席提現在的說法其實也是一致的我們要真的要能夠趕上日韓因為孩子的健康不能等所以怎麼樣趕快把這個專法出來那這個"},{"start":6582.813,"end":6598.321,"text":"市長今天能不能有一個時間我希望這個教育部能夠趕快去催促不管是自己的部板或者是一個院板讓整個行政團隊能夠跟我們的老師家長甚至於我們食材廠商等等我們站在一起所以這個時間上"},{"start":6601.347,"end":6615.38,"text":"謝謝萬委員的這個關心我想時間上我不知道要怎麼回答你但是我剛才你剛才提了很多問題沒有讓我時間來澄清跟回答譬如說你提到的營養師的問題我們質詢了那營養師有沒有增加那個次長我想我們剛剛講東西我們剛剛講的每一下問題你說實在的問題次長我們從這個午餐契約的我想次長"},{"start":6623.467,"end":6626.788,"text":"我想我們剛講的每一項我不會不讓你回答因為我們還要去審查嘛我想趙偉還會談嘛所以今天我把這個問題提出來如果今天我們有個半個小時的時間以上我們當然有辦法一條一條談市長 不要這樣過去如果你站在這個位置對面是這樣來答詢的話我想你應該也不會接受這樣答詢啦所以不要說站在那個位置上去這樣做"},{"start":6650.492,"end":6658.861,"text":"所以我現在要告訴你的是說今天問題點出來你也很清楚這些問題點但這問題點是必須點出來的至於你講的每一點每一點要不要時間給您回答呢我們在草案的時候大家可以一條一條來回答但你必須要準備好啊如果你都沒有準備好布板也沒有出來院板也沒有出來那我們修法增加的這些錢"},{"start":6670.993,"end":6673.074,"text":"過去補助的經費地方政府會不會買單你這個地方政府不買單我們怎麼去修這個法哎呀 次長我覺得啦你不要站在這個位置跟站在那個位置我覺得在面對答詢的這個態度是不一樣但是環境有改變嘛那我們必須要務實的來面對這樣的情況我們把它講清楚"},{"start":6693.151,"end":6716.384,"text":"你過去站在這個位置的時候你會這樣子嗎你過去在質詢的時候非常溫潤儒雅然後呢其實每一次我告訴你沒有一個對面的部長這樣子的你怎麼當到次長你這樣呢你過去在這裡講的時候如果今天林明裕次長這樣子回答你你有辦法質詢下去嗎你有辦法質詢下去嗎本席今天也告訴你說我們在頭上面到底要不要聽報告時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":6722.079,"end":6731.865,"text":"那個我們這邊質詢一問一答麻煩次長這個確認一下我們這個規定好謝謝尊重我們提出質詢的委員"},{"start":6734.406,"end":6750.854,"text":"次長我想我們過去的溝通都很好沒有一次像現在這樣今天本席也講得非常的清楚說以上的問題是把它點出來加強地點出來那希望我們在審查的時候有條文的時候我們再來一一講今天不是不給您時間講而且我相信這些問題過去你也知道"},{"start":6752.475,"end":6766.343,"text":"但是今天用這樣的方式 我覺得不太好你過於強勢 那今天我們只是要提醒你說這也是你過去的主張 本席只是再次的提醒你那我們在審查的時候 召委會排嘛召委要排的時候 是不是我們就可以再來出條討論那我希望說 你不本要趕快出來嘛你願本要趕快催出來嘛"},{"start":6771.105,"end":6792.015,"text":"這是過去你自己說的話呀所以我這邊再一次跟你提我希望啦能夠在一個月之內趕快把布板或是院板吹出來我們才有辦法繼續往下走那在這個討論的時候我們再針對這些一條一條來討論好不好那最後想給我再一分鐘的時間就好庭瑋不好意思那我想體育署體育署這邊我只要提醒一件事因為時間一分鐘的時間"},{"start":6794.216,"end":6819.596,"text":"就是我們現在有聽說到說教育部打算要讓國小的體育班轉型甚至於可能就是直接廢掉體育班變成社團的模式有這樣的事情嗎報告委員我們基本上沒有要讓體育班退場我們是在在這個討論的過程當中很多委員提到體育班的一些現況跟他一些地方不夠完善那我們希望協助他在不動課綱的情況之下來做部分的轉型"},{"start":6820.663,"end":6841.869,"text":"我簡單回答一下啦,其實那天是因為那個專業教練協會來拜訪,那我們也提到說在籌組運動部的過程裡面,很多選手出身的,或是教練,或是諮詢委員認為說那個體育班過早,在國小就,社立體育班過早分流,那對孩子的學習體育的方式可能會造成一些不良的影響。"},{"start":6842.569,"end":6859.266,"text":"那我們其實是盤點了之後那也請國教署去看一下那課綱的時數就是說我們第七節以後有一些彈性課那是不是我們將來如果可能教育政策能夠允許的話國小的部分讓更多的孩童都能夠接觸到一般相關的"},{"start":6861.468,"end":6872.812,"text":"我簡單的下一個結論就是說體育班的部分你們希望怎麼樣處理更完善那我覺得我們大家都會支持但是可能第一個不能貿然退場第二個我們要轉型要說明因為現在這個消息出來已經造成我們國小的體育班家長跟學生還有教練人心惶惶"},{"start":6880.474,"end":6899.769,"text":"所以我們要趕快對外做說明因為那些媒體沒有採訪我們他是聽過轉述所以在轉述的內容裡面確實會影響基層尤其是國小部分教練的一些恐慌這部分我們會透過管道能夠跟這些教練好就是說清楚說明白如果要轉型的話我覺得要全方位的去完善考量這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝委員的關心謝謝"},{"start":6903.547,"end":6928.136,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員的諮詢 次長請回座 官員請回座我們這個是詢答 這個我們立院的委員提出詢問那也希望部會官員就提出解答我們是提出問題 然後部會官員提出解答而不是部會官員提出問題所以我想這個接下來 我們有請羅廷偉委員諮詢"},{"start":6934.36,"end":6960.032,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請次長請次長背紙取 謝謝謝謝主席 羅委員好次長你好 次長對我來說啊您不只是次長您更是我們台中市的立法委員曾經在我們面前是一個非常溫文儒雅而且呢對台中市是非常非常重視學生的一個權益所以呢"},{"start":6960.632,"end":6988.42,"text":"對我來說您是我的學長所以在有些議題上我一定會尊重你那我也想有一些事情想跟你探討我想在這一次呢人民是頭家的一個宣講當中我們認同這是一個民主的一個活動那您也在現場對吧對那我們很可惜看到何新淳委員在提到了所謂的公費留學的相關獎學金因為刪減導致無法出國留學當下"},{"start":6989.56,"end":7012.926,"text":"我想你也在現場那你有跟他說這是錯誤的資訊嗎我當時沒有跟他碰到面他講因為我們在人很多那我當時應該是在宮廟裡面跟董事會在一起跟那個董建士在一起好沒關係那可是我要講的是說剛剛你也再一次的澄清這是一個錯誤的資訊包括阿柯智恩委員所提到的相關的一些培育國際人才的一些經費"},{"start":7013.906,"end":7027.856,"text":"還有公費留考舉辦的相關出國獎學金這些都是沒有任何刪一毛錢也沒有去凍結一毛錢而且還比去年還多那在這樣子的情況之下我想還有所謂的謠言當著"},{"start":7029.737,"end":7055.156,"text":"上百人在這邊直接宣講並且說了是藍白砍預算而導致了這個學生的權益受損我們是覺得非常的遺憾怎麼會有立法委員會直接在這樣子造謠那另外我想跟您詢問的是我們不只沒有刪預算在這一次我想賴清德總統有提到的所謂的青年百億海外圓夢計畫這個您知道嗎"},{"start":7058.786,"end":7079.764,"text":"您知道這個計畫嗎知道您知道這一次申請有多少人申請嗎我們是不是請青年署來講細節的部分我們請副署長好不好沒關係我想副署長我大概引述一下網路資料啦4437位爆量要來報名參與這一次的青年海外基金圓夢計畫對嗎對"},{"start":7081.485,"end":7100.336,"text":"沒錯 對吧我想不只是我們沒有三億毛錢沒有動億毛錢而在這一次青年海外基金圓夢計畫已經爆量參加我們看到了有這麼多的青年學子對於海外圓夢給予支持賴清德總統的一個政見"},{"start":7101.437,"end":7128.818,"text":"在實現的過程我想我們這些做立法委員只要是有利於我們的學子在未來的發展我們都給予支持所以我非常可惜學長市長在這一次所謂的人民是投家就針對這一點所謂的留學獎金被刪減導致無法出國留學的部分我們感到遺憾您可以承諾在這個所謂的及時澄清的網頁上趕緊將這一個"},{"start":7131.76,"end":7147.231,"text":"並不是事實的一個事件來做一個澄清嗎我想這個已經在我們的審查報告裡面都很清楚的提供了那我們也沒有辦法去對每一個網路的訊息或被引用的訊息那來一一澄清不過你提到的這個"},{"start":7148.352,"end":7176.649,"text":"蔣學金的部分我們會請國際司請這個相關業務單位來把這個審查的結果再次的跟外界來說明跟國人一起報告像我永遠都能夠同意網路資訊千萬種不可能每天都應對這些事情沒有這樣的能力但今天算是我們很緊密能夠就針對這件事情已經造成了某些國人的恐慌家長的恐慌"},{"start":7177.429,"end":7200.215,"text":"我說身為教育部應該有責任救委員所說的這個項目的審查的結果我們一定會說那針對性的我想我們不是我們不需要你在網頁上針對任何一個不用 你不用針對個人你就政策上的一個說明讓家長能夠適宜讓家長至少知道這件事情他們可以繼續申請這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":7202.876,"end":7222.168,"text":"我想那另外我想跟次長探討2019年教育部就已經拟據了學校午餐條例這個草案並於同年4月3日公告期間4到6月也召開多次的公聽會跟座談會國教署也於112年成立了學校午餐科都已經準備好了但是6年6年過去了"},{"start":7224.529,"end":7250.181,"text":"這個什麼原因來催生六年的一個法案可以躺在行政院還是因為科的層級太低無法食材烹調食安運輸以及飲食的部分教育來面向的一個議題來做一個探討我想教育部的網站上我們可以看到112年12月28日的新聞稿還掛著教育部預計立法院下一個會期提出的學校午餐專法的一個草案部長"},{"start":7251.121,"end":7257.262,"text":"對不起 次長一年已經過去了到現在都還沒有看到剛剛你有提到已經有布板"},{"start":7258.188,"end":7287.066,"text":"月板什麼時候會通過那個謝謝委員給我機會來說明啦其實剛才萬委員也問同樣的問題那其實當時我也在當立法委員我很清楚當時教育部把專法這個教育部的專法的草案跟地方政府溝通的時候我們產生很多很多的問題譬如說第一個現在營養午餐的型態有公辦公營公辦民營有民辦民營他們各自規範也不一樣現在大概就是五十幾萬五十萬五十五萬大概供應一百六十萬人三種型態各三分之一這一個"},{"start":7288.027,"end":7311.058,"text":"第二個現在有10個縣市是採取營養午餐免費最便宜的42.5元我知道樣態不一樣馬祖最好75元是那你如何去訂一個專法讓這些縣市都要照我們的規範或者說要怎麼樣來形成一個這個其實是有困難我沒有改變我的立場我們還是希望孩子吃得好所以在這方面"},{"start":7311.678,"end":7335.101,"text":"吃的安全吃的好所以在這方面我們在質詢之後我當時也沒有提版本但是增加營養師啦增加張Q的費用啦增加弱勢孩童的這個偏鄉的廚房的補助我都支持也是這樣子所以教育部在109年到111年用專案的方式來補助花了75億所以我們都知道修一個法最重要是什麼資源投入嘛是"},{"start":7335.701,"end":7353.476,"text":"所以在這三年大家談到要用專法的這三年已經形成了一個很好的預算的投入就是每年74億包括弱勢偏鄉的孩子的補助21億每年中央廚房偏鄉的中央廚房15億包括食材張Q的補助38億"},{"start":7355.498,"end":7370.032,"text":"用可溯源的國產食材這個其實你在剛剛報告的時候都有講我有聽所以我說並不是專法沒有上路中央就不重視營養午餐並不是我就改變我的態度我覺得這個是我不能接受的原因謝謝我剛剛沒有說你改變啊好 謝謝"},{"start":7370.772,"end":7385.487,"text":"對吧我應該從頭到尾都沒有說吧謝謝那我也給你時間說明喔好謝謝剛剛您的一開始的報告也都有講到這包括相關的一些預算你們投入的一些經費但是我要講的是說已經六年了我們還是希望"},{"start":7386.307,"end":7398.514,"text":"不管是預算上剛剛其他的委員都很關心我們能夠有一個草案出來大家對於自愛難行的地方我們針對來討論你也提到了有公辦民營有相關的一些樣態我們要怎麼去針對各個樣態"},{"start":7401.536,"end":7416.622,"text":"去逐一的協助還有各個縣市有所謂的營養午餐免費有所謂營養午餐沒有免費有所謂補助比較高的有補助比較低的我們都一一的納入到這一個專法我覺得還是要多溝通啦"},{"start":7417.762,"end":7434.664,"text":"我們可以不能否認吧多溝通將它其納入我們不用說一定要改變它現有的樣態因為基本上還是要尊重縣市政府嘛那至於你後面說的因為某部分的法案有可能要地方來自籌的部分可以討論啊"},{"start":7435.805,"end":7464.944,"text":"今天不是說鐵板一塊大家不能討論嗎因為所謂財劃法現在有相關的我們的一些財源下放到地方要不要也下放一些相關的權利給地方應該要自己執行這是可以探討的啊對不對我們沒有說只要錢不要權利啊只要錢不要事啊我想這是一個不負責任的但是給了錢也要給相關的權利這是地方市政府應該也要因應的好請說我想就是這樣回答我們其實是非常同意羅委員這種說法你可以採納我的說法嗎"},{"start":7466.665,"end":7480.152,"text":"去年其實陸續辦了五場五場的這個諮詢會跟座談會跟地方政委探討所以在11月20已經把版本送到院了我剛才已經說明過了過了一個月之後才有辦法通過那事實上院在審查的時候就問我們說這個補助的經費"},{"start":7482.653,"end":7510.647,"text":"將來中央跟地方如何分攤所以我們是必要需要跟地方政府再去好好去探討這個事情好 這個我都能夠認同但是我想我們還是希望教育部在這個具體的一些採取實質措施推動專法的過程我們可以看到有更加的一些作為那今天報告寫到2019年4月3日公告2019年4月到6月召開多次的公聽會座談會請問是召開幾場你有沒有去你要現在打一次會後來 那個署長可以"},{"start":7511.687,"end":7531.095,"text":"大概幾場就好了我們召開四場以上會後可以提供資料那能不能提供教育部歷次召開公聽會跟座談會的會議紀錄我們明天中午以前好不好那個資料都給我們一下我想這篇報導新聞標題下得很好日本校園午餐成功的一個秘密每件小事都要管"},{"start":7531.795,"end":7556.467,"text":"每件小事都要管今天我們先還是要回到草案內容我們希望說到底我們為了什麼為了學生營養午餐的健康為了營養師我們來努力為了廚工我們來努力為了學校的體制我們來努力因為我們看到光是學校的營養午餐秘書真的非常的辛苦這個部分我們是不是每件小事都要管我希望我們的營養午餐的立法也是成功的甚至能夠"},{"start":7557.327,"end":7580.677,"text":"作為其他國家的一個借鏡另外在今年2月27日我們的監委田秋瑾蔡崇義發布的新聞稿各縣市學校午餐自治條例等不同法令的規章缺乏全國一致性的做法以學校午餐費用的為例各縣市補助的金額跟學生的餐費皆不相同"},{"start":7581.857,"end":7604.304,"text":"針對食材費用佔餐費的比例無強制的規範不但影響學生用餐的品質亦造成各縣市學生權益不平等的一個現象且學生若對學校午餐滿意度低落往往轉以零食飲料果腹國家投注的經費新力付諸流水"},{"start":7604.904,"end":7626.594,"text":"教育部有檢討改進的一個責任喔 我想 次長 監委的新聞稿啊以國家投注的經費付諸流水 次長我再講一次齁 監委用付諸流水付諸流水是什麼意思 就是浪費了我們再來看這張齁 監委的新聞稿 次長教育部在今年的預算增加300多億 營養午餐還是"},{"start":7629.255,"end":7657.305,"text":"沒有辦法可以把它辦理更好六 我們評比項目全書日韓到底是怎麼一回事 次長你覺得呢你講的那個部分很多是地方政府的落差啦我們會加強跟他們溝通好不好這個平常是還有很多包括食安的管理的問題那是屬於管理層次我們都會在這個以中央督導機關的角色好好跟地方溝通我想台灣的沒有比日韓差啦"},{"start":7657.925,"end":7679.962,"text":"那為什麼學生營養午餐的這個業務做的比日韓還差我們有必要去檢討更希望在這個專法的探討過程中有必要性我們要納入一起來把這個所謂的孩童的營養午餐能夠超越日韓政府所提供的這個服務還要更好我想在每人用餐的費用上台灣每餐餐費是40到60日本是125元當然我知道日本有所謂的我去過日本參觀他們的物價這個我們都知道"},{"start":7687.688,"end":7713.622,"text":"你也去參觀過他們的供給過程當然成本比較高我都能夠體諒但是我們不能夠去否認他們的確投注的金額是很敢給的那當然後續我們也希望能夠探討在專法未通過之前如何改善通過之後我們要如何在生效的時候準備起有相關的改善方案我們一起來加油為了孩子好謝謝委員的關心謝謝我相信以前你也是有一個口號"},{"start":7714.542,"end":7736.155,"text":"孩子就是未來我們一起在努力好不好一起努力可以嗎教育經費不要煽動就有增加300億了不要再說了有自愛男性的地方歡迎你提出追加預算你要解凍我們台中市一定做你的後盾你要解凍我們大家一起來努力可以嗎但是前提是把政策做好落實讓孩子更好謝謝"},{"start":7737.315,"end":7745.858,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員質詢好 官員請回座那我們接下來有請林佩祥委員繼續質詢好 謝謝主席 有請次長請次長備詢"},{"start":7763.137,"end":7791.82,"text":"林委員好市長本席是基隆市選區的立法委員那其實我記得沒有錯的話在2020年我們奧運的羽球拿到我們奧運的這個就是羽毛球拿到金牌的時候那個時候時任總統蔡英文說我們要有一個羽毛球的國手訓練中心在基隆市的基隆高中那現在後來2024年去年我們又得到了世界冠軍"},{"start":7792.981,"end":7812.555,"text":"那我就很好奇說,有兩任總統來去背書的這個羽球國手訓練中心在基隆,現在進度怎麼樣?那我請詳細進度,我請署長回答好不好?我也好,那關於此案呢,我們去年一整年的努力,那我們其實已經完成幕僚的作業,目前已經在行政院了。"},{"start":7813.015,"end":7833.828,"text":"好那如果可以有任何進度的話我會再跟院長來討論因為這個案子對於我們基隆人還蠻重要的不只是因為說基隆是一個相對來講這個羽都之外而且另外一方面這個現在羚羊配都已經變絕配了都已經拆夥了但是我們很尷尬的就是說我們要答應他們兩屆世界冠軍的這個羽球"},{"start":7835.689,"end":7854.229,"text":"國手訓練中心到目前還沒有有著落那其實讓所有關心羽毛球甚至關心體育的人其實認為這件事其實是蠻可惜的啦所以我希望說市長在這邊也可能跟內閣在那邊討論一下好 謝謝再來是有關我們今天才講到的這個學校公餐法"},{"start":7855.31,"end":7869.36,"text":"本席來自基隆所以在基隆在去年在過去兩年之間發生的主要有三件這個有關食安方面的這些議題那食安方面議題裡面有兩件本席覺得很值得來給我們這個"},{"start":7871.161,"end":7892.25,"text":"在這個學校公參法草案裡面來納入我們考量因為第一個是在2023年2月14號的時候因為有番茄它是裡面驗出來有這個未核准的農藥所以後來被校方給退貨然後並報到教育處裡面去而且後來發現說這個農藥上這個番茄上面居然用的是假的"},{"start":7899.494,"end":7919.408,"text":"那這點其實是蠻重要的第二件事情還有另外一個案子也跟這個食物我們未來食材的來源我們要加緊追蹤有關也就是在去年的11月8號居然有小朋友在吃學校午餐的梅干扣肉裡面不小心咬到兩公分的針頭"},{"start":7920.689,"end":7932.602,"text":"那這件事情後來我們去查明之後才知道說這個食物食材的來源商他在裝包進CAS的時候他並沒有經過金屬探測器"},{"start":7939.164,"end":7955.934,"text":"這兩個來源商嚴格講起來都不是基隆的廠商那變成是說教育處要直接去查也費了很大一番功夫我知道這個已經進入好像民法的這個狀態這個是一個食材管理的問題對那我也非常關心我們是不是請榮良署來解釋一下或者來他的瞭解好 請他先說明"},{"start":7958.099,"end":7980.078,"text":"針對這個QR Code的這個部分我們針對這個食材真實性這個部分也都有到校園裡面對這個食材去抽檢所以那個部分是我們有去主動去查出來的後續也會針對這個供應端這個部分去做追蹤的處分"},{"start":7981.072,"end":7999.279,"text":"我為什麼會把這個議題拿出來呢因為這個食材其實不是在基隆市當地而是這個食材他們所合格的廠商其實遍佈全國而且廠商其實沒幾個因為要符合我們營養午餐的標準其實營養午餐標準是相當嚴格的"},{"start":8000.279,"end":8016.769,"text":"但是尷尬的是說再怎麼嚴格都還是會出現狀況而這又是我們剛剛小羅委員直接講說孩子的未來不能等孩子是國家的未來那我們總不希望說孩子未來吃到的食物導致他們身心受創"},{"start":8018.47,"end":8039.617,"text":"所以在這個前提之下我會認為說在這一次的這個學校公參法草案在擬定的時候如果有行政院的版本請務必把這個tracking也就是所謂追溯食物來源追溯食材來源這件事情要納進去變成是中央政府的主責而不是讓地方政府來承擔因為地方政府"},{"start":8041.858,"end":8061.174,"text":"舉例基隆市我們只能查到基隆市的廠商如果是這兩件案子它的這個主這個食材供應商並不是來自基隆市而是來自台北市新北市那基隆市政府要透過其他機制透過其他平台去查這些東西的時候就變得相對困難而這一點這一點來講甚至這樣講"},{"start":8064.457,"end":8078.83,"text":"我們剛剛講的很明顯三章EQ但是三章EQ本來應該是在tomato是在番茄上面的結果卻是用在別的地方上面這樣三章EQ的管制是不是也有所謂的疏失呢所以這種種的方面來講"},{"start":8080.792,"end":8108.815,"text":"為了真的要保證我們食材的品質而且也要防止未來像剛剛這種老實講蠻可笑蠻可恨的事情發生而且我們也要追究責任老實講追究責任可能是最後面但是我們要防止未來這些事情發生甚至如果不合格的廠商他在環境上面還在各方面不行的時候我們必須在這之前在這次我們的學校公參法上面就直接修法把它列入中央的責任這樣子把這"},{"start":8109.295,"end":8137.445,"text":"把這個中央的法規放進去的時候所有整個業界才會跟著復合我們才會引起足夠的重視市長你認為是對的嗎委員我想你這個關係的角度非常好就是也證明了一個事情就是說其實我們本來就有三張EQ的制度那這個管理的問題執行的問題出了層面事實上我們即使納入法那個管理的部分也要落實那三張EQ就包括這個食品的檢驗的相關的制度我想龍娘署的這個代表"},{"start":8137.745,"end":8156.031,"text":"非常清楚你剛才提的問題為什麼會發生他是不是要來簡單說我會認為未來這主責單位不應該是地方教育署或教育局應該是所謂中央單位來去做主責因為這方面來講如果中央願意定這麼嚴格的標準那中央就要負起相應對的責任才是"},{"start":8158.203,"end":8159.585,"text":"我認為未來整個檢查食材的SOP必須很清楚"},{"start":8174.944,"end":8201.229,"text":"因為在地方的代理商或經銷商他不會去看到如果有CIS的認證之後然後他還去把它打開來拆開來重新再看說裡面有多少的裡面有多少東西再重新做檢驗這樣時間來講也是來不及的但是如果說我們在前頭SOP就做好 主則就做好那相對來講會讓中間在地方的經銷商或代理商能夠比較輕鬆的去處理這些食材對"},{"start":8202.689,"end":8219.055,"text":"對我想這個部分食材安全分工上面很清楚在源頭部分農業部會去針對張Q的使用做管理我想這個法因為我們今天討論是學校公差案這個要很明確主責跟SOP必須放在裡面這樣未來我們全國會有一致性的標準"},{"start":8225.718,"end":8239.371,"text":"今天發生在基隆這兩個案子未來有可能在我們不注意的時候發生在全國的小學裡面那這一點來講對於我們民意代表來說我覺得這個是我們必須強烈要求的案子"},{"start":8239.639,"end":8266.758,"text":"我想台灣的張Q其實非常嚴謹就是說他也會有抽查例行的抽查我所知道的抽查也會有罰那這個案件他主動發生了他們也會主動去罰就是說他的這個罰者是都有的而且都有名單張Q可以溯源他就是說可以知道是哪一家犯的就比以前好就是說他的張Q制度不管是CS也好或者是有機也好或者是可溯源的農產品也好這三張其實都是會透過那個QR code那個Q能夠連結所以他們"},{"start":8268.579,"end":8296.88,"text":"除了主動清查我必須要說市長這個問題是未來我希望說直接列入法裡面不是說未來我們解釋會發生什麼事情因為已經有冒用過了就表示有更多冒用過了以常理來講今天有一個冒用的例子就表示市面上有更多冒用的例子正在流傳而我們只是剛好沒有查到而已所以這件事我認為說主責SOP查清這三個事情必須放在法規放在這個法裡面既然我們要訂學校公參法"},{"start":8297.58,"end":8322.515,"text":"那我們就把這個放進去現在都有了現在這三個制度都有了那可能要嚴格執行那SOP也要嚴格執行主責單位不應該是地方不應該是地方證一起來跨部會合作最後一個小小的問題其實我還有一個蠻長的不過還有一個小小的問題請問一下國光獎章或獎金的分發辦法第17條已經多久沒有修了"},{"start":8323.547,"end":8348.744,"text":"你是說獎金的那個對 國光獎金我為什麼這樣問呢我們如果說要對於運動產業要對於運動產業來做推廣那運動產業的職業運動員最後面能夠代表國家能夠在跟國際之間競爭應該是最高的榮耀很多人跟我很多人說過中華隊或是國家代表隊的那個球衣是很重的"},{"start":8349.224,"end":8363.221,"text":"甚至有人寧願不幫美國打19歲以下的國家代表隊會願意回來幫我們台灣打但是這個前提的話最近我就問一個職業運動員說那他們有什麼需要我們幫忙講的他說最小的一個"},{"start":8364.71,"end":8387.427,"text":"目前國光獎金是用點數來去算的不到50點不准發放那如果剛好有一些國手是在不到50點是在一個點數一個點數值在30點左右他整個職業他整個國手生涯就結束的話那想請問他們這個獎金1.1萬塊的國光獎金是否還能拿得到呢我請那個署長來說"},{"start":8388.376,"end":8403.75,"text":"報告委員那個是早期的制度了現在已經不是這樣子了那現在是怎麼樣呢現在就是針對他的運動成就我們直接就是發放這個獎金所以就是如果他是有能夠如果他是支持上我想您的那個那位陳青仁的個案他應該是很多年前好"},{"start":8404.29,"end":8413.82,"text":"在這個案子它整個法的更新之前的一個案例委員如果有個案可以直接來因為國手來講的話如果我們正要推廣運動產業我那時候在國事論壇也特地幫我們的運動員發聲幫退休的運動員發聲那如果我們要給他們一個標杆幫國家來去出戰各個競賽的運動員應該更受到重視是 謝謝一句話嘛"},{"start":8427.153,"end":8455.268,"text":"錢給的不夠心受委屈了那我們台灣的運動市場並沒有像美國日本來的大但是我們基本的尊重有時候很悲哀的現金也是一種基本的尊重如果連這點都不給的話甚至在本來在我記得聽說有保險都出問題的時候其實這樣對於整個運動的風氣就很不好那我希望說我們今天張亮市長是負責運動的那我希望您跟國體署可以在未來在運動產業的發展上面注意這一點"},{"start":8455.768,"end":8476.306,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,我們會努力,謝謝好,謝謝林沛翔委員的諮詢,關心請回座好,現在有請葛如君委員諮詢"},{"start":8484.09,"end":8487.651,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請教育部次長有請次長次長好我想我們剛剛都看到了我希望能夠跟您確定一件事請問教育部是提出問題的人還是解決問題的人解決問題的是嗎"},{"start":8510.618,"end":8535.304,"text":"所以我相信我們希望用這樣的精神來看待我們遇到的各種狀況這些問題可能會來自於現在的教育前線也可能來自於我們的學校也可能來自於這個各種各種的情況我們也希望教育部是以本著解決問題的心態我們來討論那首先跟你討論一件事就是最近的這個已經不只是問題了這已經造成恐慌了"},{"start":8536.084,"end":8539.086,"text":"剛剛有非常多委員也都問了所以我想就是一個案件出現在網路上可以說是被到處的流傳我相信教育部也非常困擾我們有一些其他政黨的委員提出了很多的轉貼提出了很多的追加的詢問說這個事情很可怕這個東西會影響到我們的學生會影響到我們的教育"},{"start":8565.666,"end":8574.81,"text":"那我想剛剛這個部長有這個也說明了這個相關的獎學金留學預算應該教育部是沒有刪減的對嗎"},{"start":8577.083,"end":8603.863,"text":"目前是是那也謝謝教育部有提供一個這樣的一個文書讓我們可以比較清楚明確的知道這個我們相關的教育部的獎學金的編列呢並無刪減也沒有凍結但是就像我們剛剛看到的我們說教育部應該是要來幫忙解決問題的不應該讓問題持續甚至擴散所以我想請教一下部長您剛剛我們有看到"},{"start":8605.945,"end":8633.584,"text":"這個我們的這個即時澄清還停留在好幾年前都沒有更新那現在這個應該澄清了剛剛可能時間不夠啦那這個案件是澄清的狀況是什麼能不能簡短的說明一下就像委員所拿到的這個書函我們將這個內容對你們有說有去了解這個這個案件嘛因為這個個案所指是什麼因為上個新聞我們從我們的預算科目是看到這個個案我是期待你們剛剛有說有去對個案進行了解"},{"start":8634.424,"end":8651.154,"text":"那這了解以後他到底是誰是哪一個縣市他是什麼樣的部會的預算經過刪減這到底存不存在這個人有沒有了解我們沒有辦法去查到這個因為新聞有出來媒體有出來那媒體查證是否屬實這個教育部如何等一下 部長 次長"},{"start":8652.455,"end":8675.431,"text":"有學生的權益疑似受損了市長不需要去了解一下嗎委員剛才你提的是說叫我去查證嘛那我們查證的預算的部分確實沒有刪除也跟委員回覆了你預算沒有刪減謝謝你們說明啊有學生權益受損我就問您學生權益受損教育部有沒有責任去協助當然有責任"},{"start":8675.811,"end":8688.36,"text":"有沒有責任要去了解請問這個狀況他到底是誰存不存在哪一個預算影響到他有嗎我們當然有去了解但是這個部分就不是這個部分對所以我希望他來說明嘛對"},{"start":8696.044,"end":8720.243,"text":"我想這個情況我們也是看到新聞出來那我們有去了解這個新聞的源頭並沒有指明是教育部的獎學金我不是 對不起 這個我們都清楚了第一 這個事件存不存在第二 有沒有這個人第三 你們有沒有去詢問這個學生的權益是否真的受損因為其他的哪些原因"},{"start":8721.224,"end":8749.776,"text":"有沒有 有或沒有 不好意思我們的學生不會受到影響是因為我們的經費都已經是確定這名學生是沒有揭露任何訊息的只是依據新聞的報載教育部有沒有責任了解我問到現在你們現在就是把問題放在那裡嘛然後老闆就說喔 跟我無關我們沒有刪減 凍結我當然很謝謝你們說明啊學生如果真的存在學生有權益受準了"},{"start":8751.225,"end":8773.531,"text":"這不是教育部的範圍嗎因為這個新聞所揭露的對象的背景真的太模糊了您知道那個老師的名字有出現嗎對嘛 有沒有出現請後面的同仁說明 有沒有出現報告委員 這名老師的後來後來他自己也有說明不是教育部的老師對不起 我還是在說 請問"},{"start":8775.712,"end":8792.945,"text":"我們已經知道謝謝再三的說明不是教育部的預算刪減動情有學生的權益受損教育部要不要去了解關心嗎這麼簡單的問題我想還是跟委員說明像我們公費報考的人數不一定是學生"},{"start":8794.269,"end":8808.611,"text":"所以他有可能是在職中或者是其他的已經就業的其他部會或者是什麼各種各樣的所以只要不是學生他出國就學就跟我們的這個教育部完全沒有任何關係嗎確定嗎"},{"start":8812.196,"end":8812.757,"text":"他已經在網路上求救啦"},{"start":8828.337,"end":8831.919,"text":"沒有關係我覺得這種態度全國民眾都看到了我們的教育部設定了各種的可能性說我們教育部不用理解我們的部分我們澄清了你還說他也許不是學生至少你聽到你同仁的說法嗎有沒有確認他是不是學生沒有被刪除的 沒有影響的"},{"start":8849.511,"end":8869.651,"text":"但是剛才這個提到的是說因為其他部會也有或許像外交部啦國科會啦或者是其他部會是有的就跟你們無關這個不是跟我們無關就是說我們比較難那如果他是學生受到影響就跟你們有關嘛你們就沒有去了解啊我們去了解他就說不是教育部的預算嘛那我們怎麼去了解"},{"start":8870.39,"end":8883.695,"text":"他如果是透過外交部拿到預算我覺得您這樣子在做解釋是完全國人是無法接受我剛剛已經問您了如果他是學生權益受到影響教育部要不要去理解"},{"start":8885.509,"end":8895.356,"text":"然後你現在又在跟我講說教育部預算沒有被刪所以它跟我們無關沒有關係這個問題沒有關係沒關係你現在在講說這個神秘人物你們沒有責任了解沒關係我問次長一個非常明確的問題已經有三位立法委員在為這個題目在哭窮在喊窮那我想請問次長"},{"start":8912.464,"end":8929.677,"text":"這三位委員 何新淳委員 郭育琴委員 林俊憲委員他們都非常關心請問現在教育部說了不是你們的預算煽動請問這個問題答案應該非常明確的請問教育部有沒有主動對這三位委員進行說明我們如果委員要求我們會跟他說明"},{"start":8939.153,"end":8962.302,"text":"所以教育部的態度就是我們任由所有的問題漂流在整個社會上然後有委員以不實的這種暗示然後教育部就說如果有人叫我們去說明我們再說明請問我就問市長您覺得這樣態度是對的嗎委員我們尊重你的發言權但是我們教育部也不是留言"},{"start":8963.743,"end":8982.996,"text":"那個澄清中心你說任何人的一個訊息揭露有限欸 對不起 市長市長我們這裡看到的是三位立法委員都提出這個問題喔他們在網路上提出教育部沒有預算的煽動教育部沒有責任去說明解釋嗎有立法委員可能有這樣的誤會"},{"start":8983.897,"end":8997.545,"text":"不用說明解釋嗎我們已經就這部分解釋了嘛所以我說有沒有去向立法委員的辦公室說明解釋有沒有發文 有沒有通電話有或沒有 請次長回應沒有 目前沒有"},{"start":9001.877,"end":9026.897,"text":"我覺得這個我不用指示我們是詢答我想教育部該做什麼你們應該比我更清楚所以我想這個不用我們來說請各位官員同仁都非常清楚接下來我想這個謝謝次長我們還是要再次感謝教育部的同仁真的是告訴我們這就不是你們的山洞但是我跟次長"},{"start":9028.322,"end":9055.132,"text":"同步一下我覺得這樣的一個方式這些訊息在外面流傳我覺得對於教育部在處理公費或者相關留學獎金的同仁情何以堪啊情何以堪啊外部有一大堆這樣的誤會結果我們的教育部是以一個非常被動的方式在澄清我替教育部的同仁報不平情何以堪"},{"start":9056.564,"end":9077.085,"text":"那我們再來看這個相關的這個營養午餐我們也都很明確的說出來剛剛也非常多委員來提供了資訊那監察委員的這個事情我想剛剛也都提過了那我只想問其實這裡面有提到的一些問題是關於這個食材登錄平台的缺失"},{"start":9078.413,"end":9107.965,"text":"那我想我們剛剛回到啦教育部希望是一個解決問題的人所以呢我們這裡也提供您一個解決問題的可能性啦其實有很多的這個食材都是重複登錄甚至是假登錄那現在已經有很多的科技拍張照就可以上傳哪些食材多少熱量什麼樣的營養可能可以來協助所以我想我們的這個教育部的相關食材登錄平台如果要改進要編列預算我們會支持有沒有機會來了解一下用科技的方式來優化它"},{"start":9108.365,"end":9135.513,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好我們會將委員的意見導入將來的合作計畫我們盡量來優化現在這個AI時代更好的一個優化的登錄平台是 那我想營養不足的問題剛剛都討論過很多了那我想食安在校園裡面我們應該要重視之外現在竟然還跑出一個水安有大學有這個用水安全的問題說有某間大學的自來水存在本超標64倍"},{"start":9137.794,"end":9151.222,"text":"那我們有看到啦其實教育部說這個可能是環境部啊等等的問題我想請教次長這個有沒有去進行譬如說普查或者有沒有提出預先的一些措施去確認這個問題不會出現在其他學校"},{"start":9155.587,"end":9179.149,"text":"這部分我想委員如果關心我們會來了解因為我看到委員提到的是水管老舊的問題那事實上這幾年我所知道台水不斷在更新那更新之後牽管的問題現在都已經改成我當過委員我知道我們都協助過現在都是那種不鏽鋼的是比較好的"},{"start":9179.409,"end":9193.247,"text":"那這幾年編列經費相當多那大學的部分我想它有在社區裡面或者它內部裡面如果有這方面的疑慮的話我們當然會一併來關心那我剛才看到的這個新聞應該是在十年前左右"},{"start":9194.195,"end":9221.913,"text":"不是 我們這個是提供給您的解決方案我不是來攻擊您的我們是說以前發生類似的問題其實相關部會是可以有因應措施我想請教次長一個問題次長難道要等到有學生在校園裡面水中毒了教育部才要來處理嗎當然不是嘛對 如果委員見我們一定會來關心這一點所以是不是評估一下如何來確認大學或者是校園的用水安全"},{"start":9222.513,"end":9240.059,"text":"這個相關的做法可不可以提供一個報告好我們會跟大選端來聯絡來問他們這方面是不是已經有在關心有在處理好主席抱歉我最後一個時間非常短就是這個私立國中入取率偏低非常多家長在說那請教次長您覺得主要問題是什麼"},{"start":9242.12,"end":9262.355,"text":"這個問題我想因為時間的關係希望市長可不可以有相關的書面報告提出來那我在這裡要表達本席對這樣的狀況我不預設立場但是我們認為公立學校裡面有非常優秀非常認真的老師跟學生這種訊息在外面流傳"},{"start":9263.095,"end":9285.735,"text":"如果教育部不去很清楚的知道原因的話對於這些人來說是非常不公平的對於辦學的形象對教育部來講也不是很好所以請教育部長針對這個問題做一個報告讓社會大眾了解目前的這個中學的公私立業這個狀況所面臨的問題原因到底是什麼是不是可以提出好我想我請那個署長來"},{"start":9287.268,"end":9303.14,"text":"謝謝文的關心我們會跟各主管機關包含台北市各縣市還包含本署的各有關私校一起來努力謝謝文提醒謝謝那請次長研議看怎麼樣來讓公立的學校我們提升競爭力重建整個社會的信心謝謝好 謝謝趙偉的關心 謝謝好 謝謝葛禄君委員"},{"start":9316.749,"end":9323.371,"text":"好 謝謝 接著繼續進行質詢請林怡瑾委員 林怡瑾召委質詢謝主席 有請張亮次長有請次長備質詢 謝謝召委好次長好"},{"start":9337.412,"end":9342.977,"text":"吃得好 吃得健康我想不想直接影響我們孩子成長的狀況當然也影響各學生在各方面的表現所以正確的飲食跟健康觀念是跟著一個人一輩子的資產所以國家絕對有積極投資的必要"},{"start":9357.23,"end":9372.22,"text":"那所以在上一屆立委任期我們本席就有提出這個學校飲食法的草案這屆再提那不斷要求教育部要跟上腳步那我知道我們暢言那麼久教育部也準備那麼久終於有機會要端出演藝成果的時候"},{"start":9375.882,"end":9392.62,"text":"突然殺出個所謂的新版的才化法三毒從中央拿走了3700多億到地方那我們不知道說有哪些原本中央負責出錢辦理的事務那應該是跟著移轉到地方去辦理"},{"start":9394.141,"end":9419.397,"text":"讓許多的施政跟建設都處在一個不確定的狀況之下好那實際上教育部辦理營養午餐的業務每年本來就有固定的支出就誠如您剛剛的報告中央補助21億的午餐費那針對採用這個國產可受人食材中央是補助38億那針對偏鄉中學校的中央廚房的建置中央是補助15億"},{"start":9420.638,"end":9437.99,"text":"共計74億而且這是每年喔那原本由中央辦理的營養午餐的業務我們隨著這個新版的財化法上路那是否會移交到地方去那我們今天來談營養午餐專法那各委員的版本都有一些加碼的支出啦"},{"start":9438.49,"end":9467.99,"text":"那推估起來那應該也有26億那所以這個所謂的如果說這個營養午餐的專法如果真的通過之後那很可見的就是說整個的費用要有100億以上如果是中央來負責的話那好那現在因為這個才化法出來了那所以中央跟地方要如何劃分這些我們都不知道所以未來分工不清楚的時候我要請教次長第一個是要叫我們把法案重新都撤回嗎"},{"start":9469.531,"end":9489.609,"text":"那不然就是說 好 那教育部應該就是要積極的跟地方政府溝通好 那溝通了沒 有時間溝通嗎因為才化委也剛通過那地方政府的態度是怎樣那如果我們還沒有跟地方政府好好的溝通聯繫那我們今天談這個營養午餐的專法的所謂的加碼不是都空談嗎 次長你怎麼覺得"},{"start":9490.93,"end":9516.577,"text":"我想謝謝委員的關心其實事實上就是會遇到這樣子的一個難題就是說我們當然很希望每年這種74億的補助都能夠繼續然後這個修法的部分增加了26億中央也有財力來負擔我們一樣修法也買單那其實剛才署長跟我說其實不只是每年固定加碼的費用超過100億就是有關這個午餐專法"},{"start":9517.017,"end":9534.771,"text":"上路跟上路之前我們已經陸陸續續透過學校衛生法各種制度已經增加了74億每年的補助那如果說再增加26億最少那還有餐費餐費聽說還120億左右所以這個部分其實我們就是說在去年"},{"start":9535.771,"end":9558.987,"text":"各界的注意這關心下包括柴北部分黨派大家都希望趕快立專法所以我們也在去年大概有五次的這個座談諮詢然後在11月20做成佈板送院那一個月之後會遇到裁判法所以裁判法的衝擊那個政院方面要求我們做評估那在評估的過程裡面我們就發現說那這個中央午餐"},{"start":9560.607,"end":9571.733,"text":"這個營養午餐它的這個這個制度法地方制度法規範好像是地方的權責這是在很無奈的狀況下必須去檢討你說營養午餐是地方的國民中小學我想我剛才講的補助都是國民中小學居多啦那這部分我們怎麼樣子來跟地方政府再談洽談我們會盡快就是說這部分如果因為現在那個新版的裁判法已經上路那地方政府是不是願意就"},{"start":9587.221,"end":9593.545,"text":"過去已經補助的每年的74億做一些負擔然後新增的部分他們是願不願意負擔那假如都願意的話我們在這邊修這個法那個將來的權益義務可能也要一起來談那這樣子會比較能夠不去破壞到那個完整性"},{"start":9605.413,"end":9630.535,"text":"那我們現在光是裁判法上路之後如果中央跟地方的權責不釐清將來負擔不釐清我們怎麼樣去保有孩子能夠至少這個74億不要動對於教育部國教署來講已經是一個非常頭痛的問題在裁判法上路之後那我們在心情上在修法大家講得很高興充滿理想熱情跟我以前當立委也一樣對不對"},{"start":9631.516,"end":9651.358,"text":"那但是我們如何真的去增加這個經費然後這個經費是誰要來出所以這個不講清楚坦白講這個專法又會遇到新的問題過去的專法在很難整合就是說那個制度都不同有的地方是免費的有的地方是這個家長付費的有些部分呢是這個中央補助的"},{"start":9652.239,"end":9680.542,"text":"那在這種狀況下我們好不容易形成一個專法有一些共識了可是這個現在很大的一個問題就是說那這個錢錢講起來很傷感情但是是最實際的我們中央地方怎麼樣的來來釐清這個權利跟義務我覺得這個恐怕我們必須要先去談了有一初步結果對於再進一步的把這個法請院方那邊來就是我們中央政府要好好的跟地方政府來談詳細我可以再請署長來補充"},{"start":9683.765,"end":9698.597,"text":"就是在溝通的過程中在108以來有三個問題那有偏鄉的問題有人力的問題有餐費的問題那因為這個問題不好整合但是我們又不能等所以在109開始就先解決剛才講的三個問題的第一個問題先把偏鄉做處理"},{"start":9702.68,"end":9712.53,"text":"雖然沒有專法很難整合但是我們還是跨出去做了偏鄉的處理投資63億做了解決而後年度為了偏鄉每年15億加計剛才講的59億全部加起來每年從111年開始每年74億那新法修了之後不含餐費就要增加26億含餐費"},{"start":9723.3,"end":9742.171,"text":"要達到兩百二十億所以不含餐費的話一百億含餐費要高達到兩百二十億這個得要好好跟地方政府一起來了解地方政府拿到了這些才化法的裁員之後有沒有能力跟他會怎麼規劃我們想要保障學生的權益所以制度上得要談清楚以上跟委員補充好 就是說如果這個談清楚之後那分配的比例也清楚了可能這個法這個院版的這個法才能成熟"},{"start":9750.876,"end":9779.074,"text":"譬如說我們要加碼對不對 營養師要加碼那加碼的錢是地方出還是中央出地方要補助多少像是植蜜啊 午餐植蜜啊 或是營養師啊等等 對不對所以家 對孩子好 我們都支持啦基本上方向都支持但是我們必須要為政策負責所以就必須要去講說這個問題怎麼解決那也請你們技術要談啦 好不好OK那另外 再來回到我們今天另外一個主題就是運動產業發展條例喔那本席剛提出版本"},{"start":9779.414,"end":9783.976,"text":"那當然這次主要是要修正26之2就是說有關於企業捐贈職業或業餘運動業或重點運動賽事免稅額的部分那現行的法規是2021我們修正的嘛那時候就是可以抵稅150%那當時本席也有參與修法"},{"start":9796.82,"end":9801.003,"text":"張亮 萬堅 當事委員也有一起那個時候其實我們是主張一開始我們是主張250%那因為我們先求有再求好的原則之下那財政部一直哀哀叫所以我們就用150%上路那過了三年了那現在時機成熟了嗎"},{"start":9816.593,"end":9821.478,"text":"那署長還是次長過了三年了就是說150%變成250%有沒有機會委員我想你知道我的心裡是期待的但是部會就是議題大家還在溝通那我們也希望"},{"start":9832.509,"end":9853.525,"text":"其實我們現在看到的數據每年底稅的大概額度3年了大概從11億左右去年好像11億前年10億那職業運動大概去年底的10億那當時協商的時候門檻是可以到30億那為什麼會沒有辦法用到那麼多可能有一些結構的因素那看法也不太一樣這個問題我必須承認"},{"start":9854.286,"end":9866.032,"text":"但是我們還是希望運動部上路之後為了優化運動產業的經營我們當然希望在租稅優惠方面能夠爭取到更大的一個額度那這部分我們是財政部有代表來"},{"start":9866.991,"end":9890.01,"text":"我們是不是要請他們對啊因為體育署是說如果根據這個專戶的運作來看受證金額最多只到11億嘛那沒有達到上限30億所以稅水影響其實有限的啊那加上我們運動部再來要掛牌所以整體的運動產業要大爆發的時候所以這個時候如果不把"},{"start":9891.451,"end":9907.458,"text":"減免銀索稅的額度調到250%那增加這個動機讓更多企業投入運動產業那要更待何時所以這個時候是更加把握的時候對不對對 我想委員的關心有一定的這個一定會有一定的效果"},{"start":9908.838,"end":9931.05,"text":"所以我想再請大家努力如果說250%當然這是我們心目中的願想如果財政部還是有很大很大的意見那您覺得有什麼折衷的方案嗎我想這個是列入我們院的優先法案所以這部分我們會再來研商"},{"start":9931.69,"end":9946.421,"text":"那因為委員的版本相當多朝野也都有一些不同黨派也有相同的提案所以這部分我們會持續來討論也會尊重委員的意見那我再請教一下因為之前體育署有說財政財政部要在3月14號開會討論這個議題那到底討論的狀況如何我們請財政部來說明好不好"},{"start":9958.235,"end":9963.537,"text":"跟委員報告目前的現在的現行法是那個費用加成就是150嘛那150其實相當於說企業他捐贈100塊裡面有30是政府補助就政府補助的比例已經達三成其實這個是補助比例很高啦"},{"start":9975.62,"end":9997.847,"text":"那因為企業捐贈的對象是企業他自己決定的那政府已經配合企業他捐70塊政府已經出了30塊這個比例很高那是不是要再提高我們可以再跟這個教育部大家再一起再來談過可是他背後所創造的產值那是不是這樣子的來計算的好你說像我再簡單說一下像說我們因為改成150所以我們職棒變了6對這個我想知道市長最清楚"},{"start":10003.809,"end":10017.115,"text":"那多了台鋼雄鷹在六支隊伍之後那你看整個職棒蓬勃發展那特別是我們又拿到十二強的第一我想這個都是因為有六隊然後整個的效應所產生的所以不要簡單看這個"},{"start":10019.256,"end":10031.821,"text":"表面上的碎損這個背後創出了產值包括我們現在有大巨蛋也有我們台南的亞太棒球村那未來因為球場的這個規模變大然後大家球迷湧進那整個創造出來的產值包括我們亞太棒球村也有讓韓職來春訓那個整個產值大家來看韓星的啦"},{"start":10041.244,"end":10070.604,"text":"將來有試對未來會有試對Okinawa本來是日值韓值的最佳春訓基地那他們的產值一年是上百億的那可是我們開始慢慢在經營這一塊我覺得我們未來有可能會超過Okinawa因為我們的條件都比他們更好所以我想啊就是說財政部要拜託您就是說不要看表面上的稅損或者說國家先補助多少我覺得那個背後所創造出來的產值的那個稅才是更驚人的啦"},{"start":10072.145,"end":10088.881,"text":"我們會跟財政部還有企業投資的這些企業團體來找個機會一起來溝通因為我們會盡快因為這個部門署這邊已經準備要提了那目前因為沒有共識所以我們就是用尊重立委提案的方式將來也會併審來討論OK 好 謝謝次長 謝謝署長 謝謝昭偉好 謝謝 謝偉"},{"start":10095.987,"end":10103.669,"text":"謝謝林警召委的諮詢 這個官員請回座那接著繼續進行質詢 請劉書斌委員質詢有請廖安章監次長"},{"start":10126.117,"end":10152.274,"text":"委員好市長好我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從草野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做"},{"start":10155.616,"end":10176.637,"text":"做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的食材等等的健康還有國民健康這些去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到問題的是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是財化法還有"},{"start":10177.833,"end":10187.404,"text":"包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢當然他的附議是沒有通過的是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初"},{"start":10190.885,"end":10198.673,"text":"教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送部之後送行政院的情況之下結果就因為這個變數出現了繼續跟地方政府溝通我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說"},{"start":10211.907,"end":10223.578,"text":"市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為才能把總原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在對一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個"},{"start":10229.784,"end":10243.337,"text":"因為各地在做營養午餐的差異性是有縣市裁員還有偏鄉供應的問題那這種情況之下是不是在於這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的"},{"start":10244.58,"end":10259.641,"text":"對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000"},{"start":10262.504,"end":10287.076,"text":"753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多了財源去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是"},{"start":10290.919,"end":10308.533,"text":"這個執行的秘書嘛是不是就有比較多的對我懂委員的意思就說我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說"},{"start":10309.513,"end":10330.807,"text":"金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉"},{"start":10332.048,"end":10344.883,"text":"我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助"},{"start":10347.065,"end":10372.153,"text":"所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助"},{"start":10373.433,"end":10400.803,"text":"那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講"},{"start":10401.403,"end":10429.877,"text":"要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過的裁劃法我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他市長"},{"start":10431.097,"end":10448.892,"text":"時間真的會生效嗎?對那知道這個情況之下可是他一旦生效的時候就是必須會做除非他都被暫時處分等等所以可能也沒有那麼快但是重點是在於說我們今天要召開這樣子的一個尋答最重要的目的是說想要問的問題是確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?"},{"start":10450.433,"end":10458.14,"text":"我們希望能夠定但是遇到的問題也必須解決現實上必須面對事實上就定我們現在在目前的情況下我們本黨也提出了我們本黨的意見我想要就因為後來進入到修法委員會的審查法的精神我們會繼續討論那非常好那我就想說如果在以"},{"start":10475.194,"end":10493.773,"text":"以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了三千多億的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上"},{"start":10498.666,"end":10526.901,"text":"如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法"},{"start":10528.002,"end":10549.182,"text":"我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下就很在高中但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方"},{"start":10549.642,"end":10564.623,"text":"他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低啦那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是以國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在"},{"start":10566.425,"end":10589.964,"text":"其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有有工具讓這個管理更好 思安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去"},{"start":10594.608,"end":10610.786,"text":"不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的"},{"start":10611.887,"end":10633.113,"text":"像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,這個看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊,甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下,在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談,就是說我們那沒有關係"},{"start":10636.314,"end":10655.049,"text":"那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以"},{"start":10655.989,"end":10675.223,"text":"自設廚房為主但其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應當中的情況它事實上好像它只遇到所謂的統餐跟合餐"},{"start":10675.983,"end":10694.759,"text":"在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在草原的情況之下您認為這部分"},{"start":10695.439,"end":10711.394,"text":"有這樣多元的情況第四點我們要加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員去學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個"},{"start":10715.617,"end":10743.217,"text":"參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少"},{"start":10743.997,"end":10767.939,"text":"監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話"},{"start":10768.399,"end":10785.849,"text":"他們認為台灣一餐六十幾塊他們一百二十塊我們吃的並不比他們差就是說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力"},{"start":10786.269,"end":10792.452,"text":"是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以那如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師啊還有所謂執行秘書啊在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有"},{"start":10816.842,"end":10817.322,"text":"您對這個看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":10836.079,"end":10864.935,"text":"我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多sign in的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作"},{"start":10865.555,"end":10870.818,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝謝謝劉書斌委員的質詢那待會我們在陳秀寶委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘那接著繼續進行質詢請郭育晴委員質詢好 主席早安有請次長"},{"start":10895.816,"end":10911.209,"text":"有請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝委員剛剛一進來就被我們主席點名了齁那我看到主席這個相當生氣那在這裡我想問一下喔講學金的部分應該不是只有教育部能提供對吧"},{"start":10913.47,"end":10937.95,"text":"應該是有各類的啦剛才提過說像僑委會啦外交部啦或者是中研院國科會我去訪問外國的時候其實也會遇到台灣的一些留學生他們是譬如說他們是政府的官員那他們有一些計畫他們前往那邊去做學習學術的交流或一年有各種研習可能統稱獎學金所以我不清楚這個新聞事件上所講的留學生是哪一類"},{"start":10940.312,"end":10955.92,"text":"因為委員非常關心我們一定會再繼續因為委員的指責我們也很難過啦所以說我們可以繼續做這個了解我沒有指責教育部啊對我們沒有指責教育部我們只是在想說這個來源我們要搞清楚不然其實真的罵錯人了"},{"start":10956.3,"end":10982.162,"text":"好不好好那這個其實也是原po啊他在底下有人在問了他說請問很好奇喔這個關於這一個部會的這個獎學金到底是哪一個單位負責那他也提出了因為中研院也把老師的名字也寫出來囉好那我想呢在這個中研院114年的預算當中的業務費喔其中的業務費其實也包含學術交流的部分"},{"start":10982.742,"end":11002.375,"text":"那當然也包含參與學術研討的相關的經費那這個部分呢 有沒有被刪 有沒有被砍 有沒有被動教育部知道嗎我想就按照剛才委員關心我們如果已經是有名有姓有單位我們會去了解關係沒關係我來回答齁在中研院的部分呢其實我們在立法院已經凍結了11.62億"},{"start":11004.696,"end":11025.869,"text":"就是關於中研院的業務費那我剛剛提到了這業務的範圍包含學術交流也包含參與學術的研討相關的事件那有可能就跟這一位沒有辦法成行的同學博士生有相關了那另外呢在整個所有的經費呢也是被砍了大概將近15%15%大概就是3300萬"},{"start":11031.053,"end":11044.332,"text":"所以其實不是只有劍指教育部就沒事因為還有很多的部會我在這裡也做一個說明我們剛才也是說教育部沒有但是其他的單位到底有沒有我們也必須做了解不然我們背上好多劍好多刀"},{"start":11046.135,"end":11064.934,"text":"好那再來因為今天剛好次長來喔除了剛剛我們大家都關心的營養午餐以外喔我先來講一下關於上一個會期應該是說上上個會期三月的時候因為凱凱案昨天他們開了第四度的這個準備的程序庭"},{"start":11065.575,"end":11092.209,"text":"那這第四度的程序準備庭其實我也到場的去聆聽喔那主要就是他們在接著下來之後的審判庭期喔審判的這個期日呢來做整個所有的程序的一個報告喔那凱凱案當初為什麼我會這麼的關心是因為他的隸屬的主管機關之一當時還沒改例在九月初改例之前其中最大的就是我們的"},{"start":11093.149,"end":11107.776,"text":"教育部是我們他的主管機關那針對這個凱凱案呢從頭到尾其實跟教育部相關我質詢了大概有八次即便在兒福聯盟改立到衛福部"},{"start":11108.456,"end":11113.861,"text":"在10月4號的總質詢當中我也在大院針對兒扶聯盟來做質詢那我想當初其實我們的建議要部長他也有同意也答應我給我一個肯定的答案"},{"start":11124.671,"end":11143.604,"text":"就是在凱凱案告一個段落之後他會來再回過頭來追責所謂的兒福聯盟在內部控管的缺失跟他們整個所有的監察的系統的一個落差這個部分還有他們在內部的消息有沒有疏失來做一個懲處"},{"start":11144.585,"end":11162.403,"text":"是我想這個部分我還是需要再次在今天的這個質詢我希望能夠得到這個次長您的同意然後您的認可我們繼續雖然教育部現在已經不是兒福聯盟的主管機關但是我們還是希望能夠繼續就責可以嗎可以沒有問題"},{"start":11165.626,"end":11179.797,"text":"我們會等這個司法判決啦他會有一些犯罪事實的這個判決結果的認定會書寫那我們會有更清楚的一個究責的對象那我們行政機關是一體嘛我們到時候會一起來努力"},{"start":11180.598,"end":11203.336,"text":"尤其是我們昨天其實我跟林月琴委員我們兩個人在追凱凱案的這個時間跟次數應該算是全院最多的但是我們沒有站在人群面前去討拍去蹭這個聲量那尤其是當初3月14號3月18號的時候未還的委員會"},{"start":11204.837,"end":11216.026,"text":"召開了他們的這個會議針對凱凱案的時候其實當時他們的主席還是兒福聯盟的高層董事王玉敏"},{"start":11216.909,"end":11239.523,"text":"那這個部分其實他當初沒有迴避繼續擔任主席而且還說他也是3月11號聽到媒體揭露他才知道凱凱案的以兒福聯盟這麼龐大的慈善巨獸居然他是董事他是高層怎麼會在孩子在2023年12月24號的平安夜已經離開了"},{"start":11244.426,"end":11254.83,"text":"他到三月份還是聽媒體才知道的這個部分我個人非常的不苟同我也非常的不認同好我們來進入今天的營養午餐的部分我想學校的營養午餐攸關學生的健康是非常重要的那但是營養午餐的亂象其實也頗多那像前一陣子我們看到就是有學校的營養午餐就是擠這個所謂的這個應該銀絲捲"},{"start":11274.156,"end":11299.61,"text":"光一顆銀絲捲可以擠出大概半碗油等等然後再來關於所謂的營養午餐的這樣子的一個亂象其實還是有一些新聞頻傳但是呢在我們知道從這個營養午餐依照地方制度法其實事權在地方然後另外呢在過去其實我們中央有一些補助但是今年我想要問市長最重要的一件事情是"},{"start":11300.47,"end":11325.798,"text":"我們在11月之後發生了財化法請問對我們的營養午餐不管是地方的一些營養午餐的補助請問會不會有重大的影響當然是會有啦所以說我們就想說其實這個因為財化法的這樣的修其實對於這個像國民教育階段需要中央大量補助的這些國教補助款"},{"start":11326.838,"end":11351.397,"text":"那過去雖然在審查的過程裡面有說一般補助款不能減少但事實上我們有很多地方的補助是透過計畫來達成政策的目的譬如說我們希望孩子吃得好、吃得安全、吃得營養那當然像張Q的補助從106年到現在上路已經補助到一年38億像這個弱勢孩童要讓他吃得飽"},{"start":11352.097,"end":11380.16,"text":"那要協助地方政府去補助他們那也從91年到現在也陸續補助的到每年21億像這個廚房設備不足偏向的地方那校長常常開著發財車到地方到山下採購一個禮拜像這樣子的一個新聞我們都看到了那這幾年來陸續也在委員的關心下我們編列的經費中央廚房每年也都到達到了15億所以我說每年其實我們不算那個餐費的補助"},{"start":11380.76,"end":11403.277,"text":"光是這方面補助其實已經高達74億了那財化法的衝擊對國教補助款的影響到底有多大我想我們也在做內部的謹慎評估但是對於修法會再增加負擔跟補助的部分我們是真的覺得不跟地方政府攤開來談那事實上修的再怎麼樣的法好的法我們怎麼樣來落實會變成將來一個"},{"start":11405.879,"end":11426.486,"text":"我們就不希望看到中央地方在互推我想讓孩子吃得好我剛才也說過那是一個甜蜜的負擔那中央跟地方一定要合作一定要來談所以中央跟地方目前其實是還沒有達到對 不能說我們錢沒了錢被拿走了三成28%結果地方增加的那我們又要去負擔又沒有那個能力然後地方又說他們沒辦法接手"},{"start":11426.866,"end":11449.171,"text":"那這樣子就真的就是不是一件我們樂見看到的尤其是我們看到有很多的委員提案也包括我自己其實我也特別對委員提案非常肯定就是從40班至少有一個營養師我們希望能夠往下就是再擴增比方說可能20班就至少要增加一位這個營養師原額的配置也因為採化法其實營養師陸續這幾年都有在增加"},{"start":11449.531,"end":11454.074,"text":"所以其實光是我們的才化法到目前為止其實我們不知道對所謂的這個營養午餐它會有多重大的一個影響那目前有沒有一個時程是說我們跟地方要怎麼樣來大家把事權講好"},{"start":11479.831,"end":11502.763,"text":"還是要82分我想委員知道在這樣氣氛下教育部我們會很強力的來捍衛這個預算但是要跟地方談我剛才提過了有些縣市對於他所獲配的財源他不見得很滿意那中央說我們要收回這個補助款希望由地方負擔他也不會那麼容易答應我舉個例子嘛台南台南現在是"},{"start":11503.803,"end":11530.85,"text":"國立高中他還是我們國立的那其他的六都裡面大概有四都已經收回了那台南會願意嗎那台南不願意我們怎麼辦那像台北市他錢比較多他或許他會願意比較好談那新北會願意嗎有些偏鄉的補助所以這個我們要盡速來溝通啦那也希望才會把這個影響能夠把影響降到最低啦因為孩子其實在學校的營養現在行政委員會做憲法救濟嘛剛才那個委員已經提過說"},{"start":11532.15,"end":11556.459,"text":"複製已經過了 行政究竟如何我們當然如果說真的對我們裁員的影響不大我們當然不樂見還要透過跟地方協商我們會很大方的補助就像過去這幾年一樣好 那我們希望能夠就是因為裁劃法的關係然後在營養午餐的部分我們其實不打折還能夠給孩子更安全然後給家長也放心 好嗎謝謝委員的關心謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11558.968,"end":11565.259,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員質詢 官員請回座接著請陳秀寶委員繼續質詢謝謝主席 請張廖次長"},{"start":11578.752,"end":11583.114,"text":"這邊我想先跟您討論關於這次學測的這個成績我們學測成績剛公佈不久但是這個統計卻顯示說在英文的成績狀況已經連兩年底標都降為三級分後標也降為四級分那在五級分以下的學生佔比從23.14%提升到34.17%增加了百分之十"},{"start":11599.821,"end":11622.456,"text":"那有高中的英文老師有指出111年到114年的這個學測的英文成績比較友善那麼在題目變簡單的情況之下成績卻變得比較差可能就不是題目造成的結果次長這邊我想請教你教育部針對這次的成績英文的成績狀況你們有沒有掌握我們會不會針對英文成績持續探底的這個狀況來進行檢討"},{"start":11624.697,"end":11645.054,"text":"對委員的關心我們也非常關心教育部過去不管是透過高中優質化的補助方案或者是高職優質化的補助方案其實對於城鄉的差距你提到的就是英文的成績會有一些落差我們也都持續關心詳細部分我們是不是請副市長來那請您簡短的"},{"start":11648.407,"end":11651.29,"text":"謝謝委員的關心剛剛所提每個學校可能有他原來的校本的經營但是國家的政策還是在有幾大政策上我們持續給予協助剛剛委員關心到那個成績有特別的情況我們會就跟高教師去釐清他那個背後真實的不管是學校區塊"},{"start":11673.171,"end":11695.022,"text":"真實到底是什麼原因造成我希望你們盡快的去了解因為其實英文是很重要的基礎科目那在大學階段也有很多課程是會有閱讀會閱讀原文書的需求所以我們在這個部分我們去了解說為什麼是什麼原因是教學呢還是什麼原因造成說會有這樣子的這個標準都下降的這個造成的這樣的狀況"},{"start":11696.563,"end":11701.088,"text":"因為英文也是目前全球最通用的語言所以我希望說你們針對這個部分呢這個我們學生相關的英文的實力的這個提升的這個方案你們來研議一下那你再給我一份報告好"},{"start":11710.899,"end":11740.131,"text":"接下來我請到次長目前有報導說在桃園的某國中傳出在露營的活動中有使用中國軍服那本席這邊有跟國防部確認這個活動所使用的迷彩服確實不是我國軍所使用的這個我也認得因為我想要再當兵他每個禮拜會帶回來給我洗所以這不是我們自己國軍的這個試樣那這邊我將這個迷彩服有放大次長您看一下你覺得說這個很明確不是我們的那你可以看得出來這是中國軍方使用的迷彩嗎"},{"start":11741.87,"end":11769.301,"text":"這個媒體有報導說這是比較明顯是解放軍的啦但是業者有辯解啦但是我看這個看起來似乎是沒有錯其實對於一般的教師啊學生或是民眾可能沒有辦法及時的來辨認說迷彩服的樣式是哪一個國家所以對於負責辦理活動的廠商跟校方其實就應該更嚴格來把關那我想請教現在對於目前國中露營活動他們使用這些迷彩服我們有定"},{"start":11770.261,"end":11790.359,"text":"相關的要求嗎還是規定嗎這地方的權責我們沒有管到那麼細不過我想請那個署這邊其實這兩天也有發函地方也跟地方做了解來做一個回應所以說署這邊已經有跟就在那第一時間3月17號我們今天新聞喊請桃園市政府做確實的了解"},{"start":11791.54,"end":11816.907,"text":"但同時對地方政府怎麼繼續監督管理跟學校本位如何訂定相關的這個活動的設計跟活動實施過程的了解這一套我們都有跟各縣市來做溝通跟要求謝謝所以署這邊已經有去研議說如何防止學校再發生這樣的事件那我想請問一下那針對這個使用中國軍服的廠商我們有任何的問責的機制嗎"},{"start":11820.926,"end":11836.268,"text":"我們會請桃園市政府教育局來掌握本案後續的狀況事實上去負起督導學校的一個角色如果有違反相關的規定那麼也可以依照他們相關的法令"},{"start":11837.409,"end":11851.383,"text":"包括校長適不適任的問題那處理上有沒有行政上的一個問題我來做一個問責好那也希望你們能夠掌握盡快的掌握相關那趕快去了解我們會把這個案件列為重點本期在這邊真的要強調其實中國現在正不斷的以各種方式來侵擾台灣甚至他們也不斷的就是放言說他們不放棄武力犯台"},{"start":11859.051,"end":11884.287,"text":"所以我們不能在學校的教育我們所舉辦的活動上這麼大意我們甚至這等於是在幫中國做這個認知作戰所以本席會希望說我們教育部盤盡快的對這個事情我們來了解你們要提出一份檢討報告給我因為這不是小事這不是小事中國一直對我們有存在敵意我們在教育上要非常的小心我們要有這樣的憂患意識那接下來呢我還要再問你一下"},{"start":11885.788,"end":11897.637,"text":"桃園某國小的校長在抖音上發布統戰圖文甚至還發表兩岸一家親的言論如果我們的校長他都是有這種觀念他要怎麼帶領一間學校來阻止中國統戰思維滲透甚至說這個校長他還是我們足球協會的理事"},{"start":11905.343,"end":11932.998,"text":"次長 這樣子錯綜複雜的關係及人際網絡都是中國拿來滲透的管道所以本席希望說教育部可以審慎地面對就是全面來檢討相關的這些人員也要注意管束這些言論的適當性本席不希望說某些人士利用特定的這些體育團體來動作管道將運動及運動活動比賽染上這個統戰的色彩我希望教育部 整個教育部還有包含體育署我們所有的"},{"start":11934.079,"end":11949.497,"text":"都要好好的来应对那次长您对这个您的看法跟您的现在可能要做的做法是怎样我想这个行为是非常不妥完全非常不妥那至于他的这个相关的选择还是在台湾市政府那这个国家组这边已经也跟他们联系"},{"start":11949.497,"end":11968.697,"text":"那再請你們持續追蹤好嗎我再次強調其實中國對台灣有存在的很巨大的敵意我們不能沒有優換意識這一點我希望說我們在整個教育體系我們一定有這樣子的概念好這現在進入我們今天主要我們那個學校飲食法的這個主題"},{"start":11969.518,"end":11997.818,"text":"我想請教說這次學校飲食法的增訂所有委員的版本都有明文規定要增設營養師及飲食秘書那教育部你們會朝這個方向研議嗎那如果以委員的版本你們有沒有預計要增設多少人力需要多少的預算對 其實我們送院的布版裡面當然也有布版的一些綜合大家考慮提出來的一個版本那這個詳細的部分我們是不是請署長來回答好 謝謝"},{"start":11999.426,"end":12011.091,"text":"剛剛委員催詢到營養師跟有關的五蜜營養師的部分如果按照目前我們的規劃是公辦公營的大概會增加263人將近要增加的經費是達到2億7800萬那如果是五蜜的部分現行五蜜有41%是老師監作"},{"start":12020.054,"end":12033.991,"text":"有59%是非老師處理那這整體有簡課的方式也有很多的其他的建議那這些建議如果加計起來可能會達到五億多五億的部分所以這個都在那個剛剛講增加的那個26億內"},{"start":12037.475,"end":12060.615,"text":"就是兩億再加五億如果以營養師跟飲食秘書來講的話那其實我們根據新修正的這個才化法中央各單位已經預計要撥出去的大概是將近百分之三十的預算到地方政府那我們教育部現在在教育的整個預算減少的情況下那你們有辦法負擔這些新增加的高額的預算嗎"},{"start":12061.756,"end":12075.014,"text":"對 謝謝委員的關心如果按照專法草案各項的項目經費剛才除了營養師的部分可能需要兩億七千八百七十八萬之外像補助高級中等學校經濟弱勢學生午餐的所需經費還需要增加到四萬四億左右"},{"start":12077.017,"end":12094.976,"text":"那午餐秘書專職化所需的經費以這個組長值來預估可能要5億5千萬那學校廚房硬體及設備的器具經費的補助也會高達2億6那有關這個高級中等學校納入張Q補助那只是團散的那個部分也要1億7千6百萬"},{"start":12096.437,"end":12112.382,"text":"所以我說這個最起碼最少還會再增加26億7300萬以最少的版本來算至少要增加26億以上所以整個補助不包括餐費就營養午餐的部分就高達100億7384萬那針對這個專法教育部沒有辦法來負擔的情況之下你們有預計就是將這些增加的預算跟地方政府來協調到底地方應該要負責多少"},{"start":12121.484,"end":12132.09,"text":"財劃法現在的狀況就是復議案沒有過那現在行政院還在做這個救濟那我們也希望比較確定之後那你們預計何時開始展開跟地方跟團體的這些對談跟溝通我們會盡快啦 署長可能有你們規劃大概什麼時候開始"},{"start":12139.431,"end":12156.027,"text":"可能我們大概在可能有一些才化法的那個確認之後比較好來溝通才有一個標的跟未來做法的溝通方向也好或是各項目也好所以說要等才化法整個比較精確的離居之後"},{"start":12158.709,"end":12177.808,"text":"救濟成功沒有減少的話那當然就會繼續加碼因為我很希望說你們盡快可以展開就是不管是跟教師啊家長啊跟學生團體跟地方政府溝通那你們才能夠把各方的意見都融合之後你們盡快提出你們的版本喔那因為你有溝通過了之後這推行才能夠順利"},{"start":12179.069,"end":12206.992,"text":"這個部分希望說你們可以盡快的來做這些相關的後續那我這邊也要強調一下我的版本裡面是透過學校提供的餐食讓孩子來認識食材也推廣健康的這個飲食的意識希望結合台灣在地的優質農產品以及特色飲食文化而且是強化跟在地食材跟人文歷史的連結所以這個部分也希望說教育部你們可以嚴嚴納入你們法案的方向讓我們的學校飲食法可以落實食農教育的精神"},{"start":12207.312,"end":12217.354,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 我們來努力 謝謝謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢我們現在 官員請回座 謝謝我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":12574.687,"end":12577.65,"text":"好 接著我們繼續進行質詢 請范雲委員質詢好 謝謝昭緯 有請次長有請次長被質詢 謝謝好"},{"start":12589.941,"end":12593.582,"text":"委員好次長午安在我問學校公參法前我先針對早上有委員提到的科博館的事情我知道張亮萬堅委員次長出自台中科博館也都說您一直大力支持"},{"start":12607.426,"end":12608.888,"text":"這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向外部提出科博館升級計畫"},{"start":12622.563,"end":12643.662,"text":"汉堡德就是1993年筹划以来最重要的计划我想科博馆的重要性张亮次长非常的了解因为他是我们全国标本数最大的那每年参观人数也300万人次非常的重要那这个计划不会因为人事的变动而受到影响吧这次长可以承诺吗"},{"start":12644.082,"end":12673.092,"text":"我跟那個離子的交管人員非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關係我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善"},{"start":12673.812,"end":12698.096,"text":"那我想至少教育部承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有外傳這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通"},{"start":12701.837,"end":12729.739,"text":"那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為你本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性那再回到今天的這個主題因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案"},{"start":12730.6,"end":12746.96,"text":"那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公餐法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過"},{"start":12748.542,"end":12774.511,"text":"同時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億"},{"start":12775.751,"end":12785.478,"text":"每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講"},{"start":12793.403,"end":12813.667,"text":"就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育"},{"start":12814.147,"end":12816.59,"text":"還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的"},{"start":12829.104,"end":12855.513,"text":"也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張廖次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商"},{"start":12855.973,"end":12881.003,"text":"那到底地方政府那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復議都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢"},{"start":12882.063,"end":12902.021,"text":"我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版"},{"start":12902.802,"end":12924.53,"text":"的採訪法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動就是說那今年修法如果增加的預算那要增加的我們講過至少會26億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個550人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億幾千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是"},{"start":12926.209,"end":12938.317,"text":"他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是財務法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":12950.966,"end":12974.197,"text":"對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣那我也想藉這個機會請教次長"},{"start":12976.218,"end":12994.007,"text":"因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些"},{"start":12994.907,"end":13014.141,"text":"我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有一些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能撿的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育預算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著撿"},{"start":13014.801,"end":13031.927,"text":"那跟著減的話小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分它六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些"},{"start":13032.927,"end":13050.05,"text":"你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果"},{"start":13050.891,"end":13075.617,"text":"方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理"},{"start":13076.617,"end":13089.872,"text":"剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元志委員我們應該問他新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣"},{"start":13091.414,"end":13108.157,"text":"我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔"},{"start":13108.878,"end":13125.121,"text":"我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔"},{"start":13125.902,"end":13143.915,"text":"那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通"},{"start":13144.756,"end":13159.437,"text":"專法的精神我們都很支持專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費都出來如果我們"},{"start":13160.558,"end":13187.696,"text":"如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果有開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油"},{"start":13192.6,"end":13197.383,"text":"謝謝范雲委員質詢 官員請回座接下來我們請葉元之委員繼續質詢您好 麻煩請教育部次長請次長備質詢"},{"start":13215.902,"end":13236.151,"text":"好 謝謝 維永好其實營養午餐這個真的非常重要其實我們在地方跑的時候常常也有小朋友或家長跟我們反映營養午餐的問題那當然好不好吃是另外一回事但重點是有的時候品質的把關這一塊大家其實有時候會提出一些憂心譬如說我現在給你看這個圖"},{"start":13237.512,"end":13264.088,"text":"當然這不是發生在我們新北市但是這是最近的事情成大南宮他們就發生說營養午餐裡面有豬扎銀絲捲捏出大半碗油那其實這就牽涉到說我們營養午餐第一個品質它有沒有出現異物第二個就是它在營養上面有沒有做到那個不管在食材上面或者是在營養的分配上有沒有達到均衡那我現在先點出三個問題是現行的狀況的問題"},{"start":13266.75,"end":13272.142,"text":"那第一個問題就是我們因為按照現在的法規規定只有在40班以上"},{"start":13273.126,"end":13297.328,"text":"自辦的廚房才要設營養師自立廚房自辦的四十班以上才要有營養師但實際上市場應該很清楚啦現在四十班以上的學校也沒有那麼多啦用人會比較準啦對對對所以他不是全部都需要四十班以上第二個有一些是自立廚房可是他是委外辦理的"},{"start":13297.808,"end":13321.446,"text":"那委派辦理的話學校就沒有設營養師他的營養師是設在委外的單位那委外單位的營養師我不能說他營養師有問題但是因為他是委辦單位設的營養師關係比較近關係比較近啦當然有時候有可能會睜一隻眼閉一隻眼第三個團散的部分就是不是自立廚房團散的部分那這個營養師的規範也是在團散的業者或便當業者自己訂定"},{"start":13322.307,"end":13331.681,"text":"那而且這個團戰業者他的營養師他有時候會去學校支援一些這個營養教育嘛那但是負擔也非常重"},{"start":13332.779,"end":13351.898,"text":"所以這其實都是現在的問題那現在呢有營養師的國中跟國小大概只有佔百分之二十不到其實比例也是蠻低的所以我們訂這個專法其實是很有必要啦訂定專法把營養師這個重要的角色他的規範把它訂定清楚然後第二個是"},{"start":13353.001,"end":13370.662,"text":"第二個是說針對午餐祕書還有儲供等等相關規範我覺得這個這個應該是應該要做的嘛對吧市長你應該也是同意嘛不過有一個點因為好像現在按照那個你們即將提出來的版本是不是說如果是"},{"start":13372.123,"end":13398.741,"text":"儲公假設是自辦的自立廚房如果是委外的話它是德設營養學校德設營養師現在的規劃是這樣嘛德就是可以或不可以都可以嘛對不對公辦公營是因啦那因為剛剛委員有提到其他的話就德那但是就是說其實委員我們我可以講一下嗎就我們114年度法定應該聘的營養師是474啦那其實我們也知道不足"},{"start":13399.241,"end":13418.692,"text":"所以我們實際拚了681,超過法規最低的一個標準那偏鄉的也在加碼,那有些還有用專案經理人的方式來取代這個角色公辦公營我現在沒有要跟你討論這個啦,我跟你討論的是自立廚房但是委外的,是用德啦其實我們是建議說應該也是要因啦"},{"start":13419.552,"end":13448.166,"text":"因為你學校必須要有營養師去跟他對接嘛對不對不然的話剛剛次長其實你也提到嘛關係比較近嘛都是比較偏對所以是不是可以考慮把委外的部分也改成因就是讓學校可以多一個監督跟把關的機制然後第二個就是說像團散業者有時候你也知道有些能夠供應這麼多學校跟學童的團散業者其實非常有限"},{"start":13448.922,"end":13466.36,"text":"那學校其實有時候對於他們當然是可以按照合約去監督啦可是在人力上面如果有一個專職的營養師去跟他對接其實對學校的營養網午餐的把關也會比較好一點對不對好不好這個市長不知道說能不能朝那個方向去努力啦朝那個方向就是經費會再增加"},{"start":13467.601,"end":13484.083,"text":"因為我覺得真的是你看光是公辦公營的營養是增加對啦我覺得我們先來考慮說我們先來考慮說該不該做這個事情就是說我們該不該站在學童的營養健康這個角度去探討說該不該做這個事情那如果說大家覺得該做"},{"start":13485.365,"end":13507.532,"text":"那該做的話當然經費大家來討論嘛譬如說你說財化法通過之後什麼中央地方各負擔多少那大家可以去談啦可是我們要先確定說這個事情是該做或不該做嘛不應該對啊這部分主要增加會在地方啦那地方他會認為得或因我們也會尊重他們的意識我聽說很多地方其實建議說應該改因那時候是因為都中央補助啦"},{"start":13510.471,"end":13536.773,"text":"我們不能夠說大家要我出錢我就覺得不要做不要我出錢就應該要做那到底是該做不該做我們要站在學校的角度或學生的角度去想這個事情在中央立場好不好我們先確定該不該做那我個人是覺得該做你也該做好不好你看我們秀出來這個圖捏出大半碗油我們會把那個方案列出來版本的方案就是說得跟因多少錢那我們問地方中央一起來"},{"start":13537.393,"end":13563.154,"text":"我相信如果有營養師的話像類似我們現在PET上面看到照片的狀況會減少很多啦這是管理的問題啦你有營養師當然就是多一個管理嘛這絕對是比較好的啦而且營養部分他可以把關嘛然後第二個同樣也是學校人力的問題我跟市長或者署長請教一下啦因為我上個會期我們都很關心那個國中的校安人力那之前"},{"start":13564.935,"end":13588.947,"text":"國教署的回應是說有增設有增設一個副組長的津貼副組長的津貼那後來我們也有跟教育部不斷的溝通嘛後來謝謝教育部啦 願意後來也針對國中部分有增設一個那時候叫做學務創新能力啦實際上就是校安人員啦應該是這樣啦可是去年 今年一月啦今年一月份那時候是回覆我們是說"},{"start":13590.528,"end":13603.303,"text":"現在是朝那方面研議然後會跟地方政府討論然後再簽辦那我不知道說這個校安人員的最新的有沒有確定的方案呢現在有兩個方案在跟地方協調我們是不是請那個"},{"start":13605.305,"end":13619.799,"text":"謝謝委員關心委員關心從去年到現在他的進度是這樣我簡單的回覆兩個地方第一個是委員講完之後也會回委員我們的方向那在3月4號的時候把這個方向變成具體的跟地方政府也溝通過"},{"start":13620.639,"end":13645.32,"text":"由學校自己選那兩種方法之一種那現在也是一樣在地方的這個才化法因為它叫年年要這樣實施所以有一些溝通允許我們跟地方政府再說服他們這是有必要而且經費上我們會一起來努力市長跟市長其實我們在這邊我們大家都是討論教育問題大家不用動不動就把才化法搬出來所以現在的做法到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":13646.461,"end":13652.548,"text":"組長可不可以很明確就現在已經確定兩個確定已經兩個方案114學年兩個方案學校會選好那各學校現在是主要是選擇偵測副組長比較多還是選擇專職的校安人力比較多以你現在溝通的狀況"},{"start":13664.039,"end":13676.423,"text":"以我們3月4號溝通之後縣市他還在跟學校做磋商以我前天調查的情況還沒有明確讓我們知道學校選擇情形跟委員會報但3月4號我們已經跟地方政府說明過了說明過後他足及會跟他所屬的比如說30個學校120個國中等等要做說明及選擇那個還沒有選擇完還沒選擇完所以到時候地方政府的教育局會整理完之後會報給你這邊嘛對不對然後你再統一簽報嘛是是是"},{"start":13693.089,"end":13704.319,"text":"對不對好那所以就是有在進行當中啦有有謝謝然後再來跟也跟那個次長問另外一個議題這個議題我那是前一陣子的議題但是我"},{"start":13705.561,"end":13734.333,"text":"個人非常好奇就是那個時候教育部開了一個性評會議把林玉婷列為這個性別身份資格選手的參賽的權益保障措施我先請教一下我實在不太懂為什麼當時討論性別身份資格的這個權益保障會以林玉婷為例因為就我們的立場我們全台灣的人都認為說林玉婷沒有什麼性別的問題啊她就是女性啊她就是女性嘛她只是說"},{"start":13736.254,"end":13750.434,"text":"國際權總不知道是為什麼去質疑他全台灣都是支持他就是女性他絕對沒有問題可是為什麼在討論性別身份資格的時候會以林玉婷為例到底當時你們的想法到底是什麼"},{"start":13750.814,"end":13766.157,"text":"我請署長來回答報告委員其實這個是當時我們在這件新聞出來之後其實我們的教育部本部這邊也做了一個新聞澄清當時的會議的確是討論林玉婷的事件在奧運我們體育署做了哪些努力去保護她免於網路霸凌"},{"start":13766.678,"end":13784.566,"text":"但是呢在當下也有委員也在結束的時候也順帶一提說我們現在全中運也是有這些的類似跨性別一些性別的一些議題那也希望體育署好好去處理所以在會議紀錄上面他們把它給混淆了其實是兩件事情所以這部分我們也修正了"},{"start":13785.885,"end":13803.833,"text":"所以第二點宣導跨性別運動選手性別身份的認定這個不是指林玉婷這是另外一件事會議紀錄林玉婷但是會議紀錄這樣一出來因為你的題目是以權及選手林玉婷而已大家以為這個個案嘛所以就認為說你是不是認為他是跨性別是吧"},{"start":13805.073,"end":13832.642,"text":"我說外界是這樣覺得嘛後來我們做修正但我覺得你們的澄清真的不夠清楚啦為什麼 因為你看喔你們後來就是有去修正那個會議記錄你修正會議記錄前面一頁你修正會議記錄呢你就是把一堆全部都刪掉了然後就說決定洽息請幾域署繼續維護選手參賽權益你就把它改成一句話"},{"start":13834.097,"end":13853.759,"text":"可是你看喔那時候人家問你們說為什麼你要去更改會議紀錄你的說法是什麼你們的說法是說那個新聞是說教育部認錯文字簡略導致誤解文字簡略導致誤解結果你去修改會議紀錄你修到更簡略你本來是三段"},{"start":13854.793,"end":13875.387,"text":"然後你覺得太簡略太簡略你應該要像剛剛次長跟署長這樣子解釋嘛對不對就是比如說題目把它改掉啊題目說我們其實在討論性別爭然後把林玉婷的名字拿掉嘛把林玉婷的名字拿掉然後比如說第一點你回到那個上一頁會議記錄好不好比如說你如果我是我要改的話"},{"start":13876.519,"end":13894.992,"text":"我第一個性別身分資格選手參賽權益保障措施我就會把已全籍選手林玉婷拿掉對不對因為不是以她為個案嘛這個主題不是她嘛她只是決定一二三其中的一個嘛所以應該是林玉婷不要出現在題目上"},{"start":13895.652,"end":13913.109,"text":"然後一然後二然後三然後提到就是說哎呀林玉婷因為這個事情被攻擊那以後呢如果我們再遇到的話我們應該怎麼support她她應該在小點裡面她不是在大體裡面然後結果你們的修改方式是她還是在大體裡面"},{"start":13914.551,"end":13929.785,"text":"然後決定變一句話可是你們因為一般去改那個會議紀錄是比較罕見啦但是我覺得改我也支持為什麼因為不要造成誤會可是你改你改得更奇怪你還是把林玉婷放在題目上面"},{"start":13932.667,"end":13939.71,"text":"我是建議說你們再去改啦好不好再改一個版本啦因為這個東西現在網路上還是看得到因為你現在我們去看我們還是會覺得說奇怪了為什麼"},{"start":13946.073,"end":13966.891,"text":"你討論性別身份你要講林玉婷林玉婷到底是有什麼性別身份問題我們還是會這樣子認定啊所以請你把林玉婷拿掉然後你下面在說明的地方你就前面就講跟林玉婷無關的東西嘛你最後一段就說有委員提到林玉婷類似發生這樣被攻擊事件下一次我們應該怎麼去"},{"start":13968.172,"end":13995.802,"text":"Support類似的狀況你應該要這樣子修正啦好 我們就請委員會我就是覺得因為你越改越大家覺得你越改越奇怪當時談的問題跟這個問題是兩件事嘛剛好那個關心林育廷的委員提到他的事情我知道我知道可是你們次長你講的這個東西呈現在書面白紙黑字就不是這樣所以既然你要改我建議說你再改一個版本"},{"start":13996.962,"end":14009.893,"text":"不要讓爭議的東西一直在網路上被全部的人看到好 我們會再提會議把它修正OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢 官員請回座那接下來我們繼續質詢 請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14027.322,"end":14048.399,"text":"市長今天如果說我們要為我們的營養午餐來立一步法我想很多與時俱進的觀念很未來性的觀念應該都要放進去好比氣候變遷影響下我們對糧食的看法"},{"start":14049.099,"end":14061.189,"text":"那這種低碳啊 抗旱啊 在地產銷 循環經濟保種的觀念 民族的味覺 解殖民的概念等等我想如果都能夠含瓜進去 這是非常前進的一步伐那為什麼我這樣談 我舉我的版本來講我的版本的名稱叫做學校共餐"},{"start":14070.417,"end":14084.742,"text":"飲食教育法那我看到很多的版本都會提到就是採用當地食材然後發展地方飲食特色但是談何容易我舉個例子我的部落旁邊種滿了山蘇誰來買"},{"start":14088.764,"end":14115.444,"text":"從產地到餐桌我們講探足機有那麼容易嗎這二三十年來我們做營養午餐很不容易達到但是我更希望談的就是說民族味覺的記憶跟文化附贈的途徑其實如果能夠從這一步伐來做其實可以成為一個很好的途徑我舉一個例子來講在花東地區有一個基金會叫慈欣基金會次長您聽過嗎"},{"start":14117.622,"end":14131.276,"text":"這個慈欣經濟會他是用募款的方式他目前有幫助12間的小學他做什麼呢每週幫助他們提供一次的小米加布農豆就是畫面圖片上看到的"},{"start":14132.377,"end":14136.66,"text":"那這個部分小米很營養為什麼因為農糧屬農業不說的啊小米是鹼性的它是所有穀類當中唯一就是不含麩質的那些胃腸過敏的小朋友呢其實很適合吃這個"},{"start":14148.869,"end":14172.741,"text":"容易吸收而且它可以做酸鹼中和對現在的孩子很愛吃肉來講是一個很好的一個食物那另外呢也提到說如果做成小米粥它的營養成分就好比人生湯哇 這麼好我們國家未來的主人翁如果能夠吃小米飯小米粥該有多好但是 次長你看一下"},{"start":14173.681,"end":14187.174,"text":"我們小米種植的面積日本人來的時候我不計算就已經開始輔導原住民轉作但是國民政府當時轉作稻米那個時候我們看到數據是在6736公頃"},{"start":14191.178,"end":14206.554,"text":"時至今日小米的面積只剩下91公頃1%不到真的很令人難過那我們其實原住民也經歷山地平地化的一個過程像我們的高山上以前哪有高麗菜"},{"start":14207.735,"end":14225.923,"text":"種滿了高麗菜以前哪有茶葉以前哪有水梨以前哪有蘋果所以呢山上種的植物已經不再是我們過去的作物或植物所以小米它面臨的問題很多像是種植的人口少而且那些人都高齡化"},{"start":14227.023,"end":14245.848,"text":"更可怕的是我們的小米品系在台灣原本是全世界最多的可是時至今日因為沒有人吃 沒有人種所以保種困難 快速流失甚至現在中國已經把小米變作是第二公糧因為它為了要抗旱當作是一個未來的植物"},{"start":14251.869,"end":14280.125,"text":"所以在這個地方生產端他說他不容易賣所以不種那市場端他說因為買不到所以不方便好 那我現在說小米他不是只有想要保種我們更希望的是把它昇華成飲食的行動保存我們民族的味覺記憶我們的孩子很需要小米但是我想說以慈欣為例她輔導那12間學校第一個每週給他們吃一次小米飯"},{"start":14281.326,"end":14293.624,"text":"然後呢 給他們種小米跟部落的農友合作做一些小米的變化料理做小米的宣講然後呢 進入到部落的文件站好 我想先問一下農糧署"},{"start":14301.138,"end":14327.345,"text":"委員好好 請教一下我們農糧署是副署長副署長我剛剛講了這麼多你支不支持我們的部落在地食材像小米 樹豆等等進入校園做營養午餐農糧署的部分原則上應該會支持那這一部分目前農糧署對於原鄉的作物我們也有在支持輔導好"},{"start":14328.365,"end":14337.536,"text":"那其實我在農糧署碰到一個障礙齁我過去也開過中聽會你們有一個非傳統性食品原料申請是很麻煩耶"},{"start":14339.245,"end":14362.28,"text":"我們的好多的月桃入菜老葉入菜很多都要被罰那個動作加速了沒有這個還要跟衛福部這邊因為那個可不可以當作食材這個部分要對我的意思說要加速要加速我們很需要農糧署的幫忙好不好好謝謝副署長那再請教一下我們的署長國教署署長"},{"start":14365.097,"end":14379.726,"text":"署長 因為這個專法是在我們國教署請教依您的經驗 這些部落在地的食材要進入到我們學校的營養午餐廚房會面臨哪些困難跟限制"},{"start":14381.446,"end":14389.01,"text":"第一個他可能如果在張Q的認定上這可能要鏈結起來這個我們會跟農糧署做了解農糧署據我了解最近在這個整體的認定上為什麼我們現在會98.41這麼高的比率也是農糧署做了很多的跟地方的合作第二點"},{"start":14400.635,"end":14427.754,"text":"可能在經費上經費上這一點剛好在前面109到111年我們給餐費我們直接給餐費到62元這樣的一個情況下對於量少它的經費可能要多一點的這樣也可以做一點支持那署長我的意思是說既然我們現在要立這部專法那您也很知道過去推動在地食材的一個困難那我很希望說這個部分我們要盡量的去協助輔導好 謝謝署長"},{"start":14430.877,"end":14444.993,"text":"對 剛才講的就是說門檻太高那部落的食材進不去學校的高牆那我們講的什麼碳足跡部落經濟部落足體農業在地產銷其實在這個地方都遇到了障礙所以我也請次長你能夠去關心這個問題"},{"start":14448.517,"end":14472.81,"text":"關心的是說你的公糧不是我的公糧你的營養午餐不見得是我想要的營養午餐所以這個部分其實我們有很多的在地食材我們都很希望能夠輕鬆的進入政府所講的這件事情怎麼樣從產地到餐桌讓它更順暢那我更希望的是說要有人吃啊有人利用啊才會有人種啊"},{"start":14473.63,"end":14500.605,"text":"那這樣子才是保種的真思維因為沒有人吃 沒有人利用 沒有人補助我們要談保種何其困難都要送到北極的種園庫這是很悲哀的一件事情所以我是希望說這件事情我們的政府能夠去介入 能夠關心連民間的慈欣基金會這樣的團體它都基於它對土地的使命感"},{"start":14501.625,"end":14522.25,"text":"對地球的愛護他都願意去募款但是他能力有限但是我是希望說我們的農業部我們的教育部 國教署大家一起共同的來推動協助我們這些的在地食材可以進入到我們學校的營養午餐那也希望呢 至少有沒有可能從原住民重點學校來示範 次長"},{"start":14523.769,"end":14550.936,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好,很前進這部分我們一定是願意來做相關的計畫因為涉及到地方的部分我們會跟他寫請他們來提計畫那我們如果可以的話我們當然會來讓部落的學校優先來示範這個如果能夠用這樣的方式來做飲食我想是部落孩童的福氣而且可以發展在地的食材在觀光文化旅遊上面都有幫忙"},{"start":14551.976,"end":14576.233,"text":"對 它就是一個良性循環其實我們談到的很多東西它都可以在這件事情裡面能夠完全所以為什麼說專法有時候就是一個宣示性規範性那很多特色包括食農教育在講很多特色在地食材是有地方的特色其實我們都很希望地方能夠發展出特色那如果在法規層面上譬如三張EQ的認證困難上面我們會跟衛福部還有農業部來協調"},{"start":14579.975,"end":14604.976,"text":"其實我要談的就是幾乎大家的版本都提到這幾個字鼓勵學校採用在地食材發展地方飲食特色但是要落實很難所以我希望說這個部分就是提醒我們教育部還有農業部能夠好好的去思考教育部的母法就是做一個規範那真的要做到有特色一定是地方的規劃計畫提出來我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":14605.596,"end":14625.857,"text":"那我們很難去為每一個縣市每一個學校由中央直接來規劃這不太可能的 也是不切實際但是我還是要講但是在規範上是有的我們在布的這個布板的條例裡面像第四條第十五條的樣子十三條都有提到就是說尊重在地文化在地食材"},{"start":14626.457,"end":14644.899,"text":"然後尊重這個認識跟尊重傳統及多元飲食文化尊重生命及自然環境我希望那個強度我們法的強度還是指導性再多一點因為到地方政府說一句實在話我們很辛苦就是說有政策然後再用政策工具再編預算來推動那這一部分"},{"start":14645.737,"end":14663.902,"text":"在經費的准許下我們會努力來做 好不好如果將來想辦法 大家一起努力地方政委也一起來分擔這個責任好 謝謝教育部 謝謝農業部好 謝謝主席謝謝武林華委員質詢 官員請回座剛剛聽到武林華委員講這個小米速鬥我肚子都餓了"},{"start":14665.022,"end":14676.987,"text":"我想這個在地的多元的食材真的是可以來考慮一下那我們待會在吳佩儀委員質詢之後我們會處理臨時提案那我們接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14691.343,"end":14713.387,"text":"市長在開始之前我不知道你有沒有看到今天早上的一個很大版的新聞就是有關於狼屍這個狼屍就是班導要女童雙腳打開給他偷拍還有教練性侵害32個兒童90次這個新聞我不曉得市長有沒有掌握今天還沒有看新聞不過這種新聞我們都會注意"},{"start":14717.008,"end":14742.891,"text":"那待會這份報紙我也就留給次長那我想最重要的重點就是說其實家長有個訴求一直以來都有一個訴求就是說過去在教育體系呢其實學校是可以透過不適任教師的系統去確認每一個他們招募的老師也好或是教練也好是不是有符合這樣子的一個不適任有沒有任何的罪行有沒有任何的犯罪證據記錄等等的但是其實家長完全是一無所知"},{"start":14743.672,"end":14768.352,"text":"那現在呢過去我自己在處理校園狼屍的案件或者是去年台北市信義區幼兒園的這個狼屍的案件這個毛俊生這個狼屍呢當時大家媒體都沒有在報導最主要是當時受限於那個兒少權法第69條不得揭露兒少事件身份資訊之相關規定可是因為後來保護司司長其實有出來說如果他符合公義的事實揭露"},{"start":14768.872,"end":14795.285,"text":"所以我想要了解就是說我們這個不適應的教師查詢系統呢是不是也可以提供給我們的家長可以來做查詢因為有時候你可能只有你老師可以查可是萬一這個老師跑到另外一個學校或是跑去外面開了這個工作室其實家長真的完全不知道這部分是可行的嗎我想我請我們有提過啦那但是有一些法規的部分我們請人事處來了解一下"},{"start":14797.07,"end":14823.609,"text":"跟委員報告一下,目前的法規並沒有規定說可以開放學校以外的一般人是不可以嗎?不可以我之前已經修了教育人員人員條例和教師法但是我覺得在法還沒有通過之前它是不是還可以有更積極的做法,可能類似公告的方式讓家長至少有機可循"},{"start":14824.269,"end":14850.918,"text":"其實我覺得那個過程裡面我看到很多個案就是那個學校本身或是任用的機關在查核上任用是一個問題他們可能沒有確實查核可是有一些是他可能他們發現只有這個資訊只有提供這個老師們自己知道家長不知道所以這個有前科的這一個不管是教練也好或是老師也好他跑去外面工作室開的時候"},{"start":14851.798,"end":14880.517,"text":"我們根本一般在外面的老家長其實根本無從得知其實現在幾個比較容易發生狀況譬如說教練譬如說這些才藝的老師我們其實現在都在加強這方面的那個通報系統以及那個確認系統就是說盡量讓這個可能性降到最低因為這個孩子他的表現權有限可是我覺得這個問題是在於來自於家長一而再再而三看到這些案例大家都非常的擔心會恐慌所以我在想我們是不是可以適度的來"},{"start":14881.678,"end":14910.757,"text":"跟各縣市研商啦有沒有更積極的方式可能是在各教育局上面公開這些資訊讓家長至少可以知道是不是可以試著去研商訪問看看對我想這部分我們如果已經確定的就是說基於公益性的揭露那這部分的範圍執行的就我們來研商好不好我們來研商看看在我們現在可行的法條的狀況之下再找找看還沒有可以做的做法這樣好不好查證上"},{"start":14912.398,"end":14936.905,"text":"好 謝謝那這大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢我們跟業務單位來我們大概什麼時候可以再來跟教育部討論因為那個涉及到其他的各部會的各縣市吧我們那個有一些法規"},{"start":14939.49,"end":14966.382,"text":"要不然你來說明很多法規的限制我們那個不適應查詢系統的部分實際上是有很多的法規去我現在不是叫你開放那個不適應查詢我是說可不可以公告呢你不用查詢啊 讓他公告出來就可以啊我想這部分我們來研究啦 好不好好啦 沒關係我們事後再來保持聯絡啦好不好我想一個月內一定會有結果啦好 謝謝可以跟不可以"},{"start":14967.362,"end":14980.962,"text":"好 謝謝那再來就是說再來這個才化法今天他其實很多的委員都提出了非常多的建議啦都積極的想要為孩子爭取我覺得這是一件好事喔但是我想理想很豐滿現實很骨感"},{"start":14984.226,"end":15006.459,"text":"就是說國民黨應該很難料想到當時匆匆的通過了這個才化法之後竟然會去傷害到我們可能許多的一些相關的政策因為像據我所知行政院已經初估法律義務之外除了法律義務之外可能要減28%而且對相關的一些教育政策計畫可能會有些重大的影響例如我們的一些少子女化對策"},{"start":15007.319,"end":15034.059,"text":"學輔法的專輔教師曾志還有中小學數位學習精進進化等等的可能都會多少會有一點影響我知道現在還沒有定案可是可能會有影響所以我想我們之前第一會期其實已經開了公聽會要來針對這個營養午餐的一個專法來做討論但是我想時空背景已經完全不一樣了甚至我可能都覺得是不是公聽會可能要重新來開來收集大家的意見那我想我們就回到就是說"},{"start":15035.06,"end":15059.066,"text":"你現在來說我們到底還有多少錢可以來做這件事情我覺得應該是要比較務實的來討論好那就是針對於這個三張EQ的部分我知道我們現在每一年的補助經費大概是40億大概將近38億38億那我們的每一年其實是補助給每年的補助大概是74億修法之後還要再26億那"},{"start":15061.909,"end":15076.043,"text":"我想就是說在現在的這個物價波長然後我們的這個財化法的影響之後我想知道到底在我們明年的115年的概算上到底影響針對3張EQ這個的預算到底影響是什麼我剛才其實也跟委員陸續報告就是說"},{"start":15081.414,"end":15098.252,"text":"有比較穩定確定的教育算其實對於我們過去的補助它能夠穩定的提供這個是比較好的那因為現在整個國家財政的分配的方式尤其財化法或者是刪除凍結的一個模式當然對教育部重點比較少但財化法這部分"},{"start":15099.053,"end":15125.815,"text":"它確實會有一些衝擊那這邊的衝擊目前就處於不確定狀態我講的就是說你現在問我說我們會少多少我們只能概估就是說如果說有一些例行的不能那個國家政策譬如說很多都是國家政策啦你說少持綠化政策也是國家政策啊那到底行政院的態度是要整體的預算要怎麼切少了28%3700多億之後要怎麼切教育部要被切多少"},{"start":15126.215,"end":15148.586,"text":"那我們現在要如何預估我們目前也只能用推論的方式那我所知道的是我們內部啊業務單位其實在籌編五六月籌編計畫的時候其實也在想說每個單位如果都少30%的話會有哪些優先會減少所以這個部分就是跟地方講就是要跟地方談就是說如果像國教補助款國教署一年大概1600多億"},{"start":15149.486,"end":15164.024,"text":"沒關係我們就針對於因為我知道那部分還不確定性還非常大我想我們就針對於三藏EQ這件事情因為它比較是類似於中央要做的事情三藏EQ的話這個部分的補助也是要跟地方談這個部分也要談就是說這個部分營養五山基本上它真的是一個地方自治事項"},{"start":15164.665,"end":15179.212,"text":"是那我們過去用計畫來引導是因為當時的裁判法沒有修當然中央的裁員確實比較豐富動審之後大部分的那個裁員也統籌都算到中央所以我們當然過去對國民教育階段的那個醫務條件我們盡量來支付"},{"start":15180.913,"end":15192.006,"text":"因為我聽起來好像是說到底明年有多少錢可以來做這件事情針對營養午餐的這些事情其實是所以我說如果是處於不確定性的非常不確定的這樣才有辦法這樣的衝擊處於不確定性的還需要跟地方談嗎對不對對我們就必須要談要談就會處在不確定性了解了解"},{"start":15195.95,"end":15213.528,"text":"那我想就是說因為其實大家當去之前我們在討論一兩五三專法的時候就是說希望22個縣市不要太多的落差把所有東西一起拉回來在中央做但是呢去年國民黨的這個談話法大筆一揮又把錢揮到地方去了所以我想我們真的是需要好好的來跟地方來做剛才我說過對對對"},{"start":15215.049,"end":15241.047,"text":"有的地方同意 有的地方不同意沒錯 沒錯 好好在這來討論我想作為一個立法委員我們立法也要負起責任這才是責任政治但在下一個部分我想要來跟署長表達一個感謝體育署署長就是說我在今年的少年盃的競賽規則中是有看到頭頂球的蓄意使用進入了裁判的判決我覺得這是一個非常好的進步因為要確保我們兒童的腦部不要在發育期間受到傷害"},{"start":15242.208,"end":15262.994,"text":"但是裁判到底如何判斷這個叫蓄意的部分我不曉得說這到底有沒有跟教練來做詳細的溝通呢?包委員這部分我們正在跟足球協會做一個釐清畢竟跟他們的規則有關但我們往這個方向去那賽事的部分我們這邊辦理的賽事其實也就是在下半年才算是一個開始"},{"start":15263.536,"end":15283.823,"text":"所以這部分我還在處理當中對我想要因為其實家長都非常關心到底我小孩子怎麼樣的東西叫做蓄意投頂球所以這個部分請麻煩跟教練做一個詳細的說明才能夠確定我們執法的時候不會有任何的偏差那最後一件事情就其實我就是簡單的快速講一下我想讓部長看一下次長看一下就是說陳潔憲其實他在"},{"start":15285.764,"end":15307.679,"text":"講他小時候其實非常希望如果學業跟運動之間的關係可以找到一個平衡那這樣他們會有好的球技也會有扎實的知識基礎讓所有的孩子都可以在未來不管遇到什麼樣的挑戰都可以有更好的一個可能性那因為今天時間的關係我來不及問到這一題但是我想接下來我可能也會持續的來跟體育署跟次長這邊來更詳細的討論這個議題但是先讓我一分鐘要一個資料"},{"start":15313.001,"end":15342.214,"text":"在我們現在呢其實有客服的一些相關的補助案但是我找不到相關的執行細項好像體育署這邊也沒辦法給我到底有多少人參加多少班參加這些實際的校數的分配比在哪些縣市我完全一無所知是不是可以請體育署提供給我這樣子的資料呢可以嗎好那為什麼之前不給我勒"},{"start":15344.285,"end":15371.878,"text":"是不是來不及整理 因為我們之前要為什麼不給我們呢主長這邊來那需要整理 需要多久的時間整理因為我們要從縣市裡面去一個一個去發文請他們回這表示說過去並沒有做相關的統計對不對那我想這可能要相時的來去確認因為這會影響到孩子的受教權我們可能要積極的跟進大概什麼時候可以給我這些資料"},{"start":15376.007,"end":15383.474,"text":"一個月好不好一個月好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員質詢官員請回座接下來我們繼續進行質詢請吳佩奕委員質詢謝謝主席我請教育部張料辦兼次長請次長備質詢謝謝"},{"start":15402.076,"end":15424.671,"text":"好 謝謝委員好市長好 今天我們要進行兩個法的討論的詢問第一個就是學校午餐學校營養午餐法那這個法我想大家都很重視我也有提案那為什麼大家會開始重視呢因為孩子的食安健康跟營養就是我們都需要來協助家庭來支持孩子的"},{"start":15424.991,"end":15429.213,"text":"那台灣的營養午餐專法是落後日本已經好幾十年過去其實在很多的座談公聽會上面都有所討論目前我們是在學生衛生法學校衛生法當中有相關的條文訂定那我們現在期待的已經不只是學校的衛生還包括了食材的把關營養師人力的補充以及飲食教育的推動所以我們需要一部營養午餐專法"},{"start":15452.682,"end":15467.318,"text":"那剛剛也聽到次長說我們也有布板已經在朝你討論那我們希望說目前已經送院了送院一個月之後發生財化法的問題那因為布板裡面有很多都是會涉及到增加經費的問題"},{"start":15469.56,"end":15476.984,"text":"那營養午餐又屬於地方自治權限規定所以這部分 財務法通過之後會產生很大的衝擊所以我們要再談 要跟地方政府再談所以我們希望說這一部專法現在已經抱怨了但是我們中央政府訂定法律都要跟地方政府來溝通討論因為畢竟營養午餐它的執行層面有太多都是在地方政府我們希望在溝通之後如果有一個共識的版本可以趕快送進立法院來大家一起談"},{"start":15497.534,"end":15501.957,"text":"那部長日本的這個學校幾時法他是在哪一年訂定我們現在看到在1954年就訂定所以他時間上是非常的早那我想有一個模式其實也可以給我們台灣做參考就是日本的學校幾時會"},{"start":15518.826,"end":15533.778,"text":"他這個學校幾時會是包括學校午餐用品的採購合約食材運送儲存都由學校幾時會來處理所以在日本的每一個地方政府他47都府道縣都有學校幾時會"},{"start":15535.359,"end":15540.806,"text":"那除了這個營養午餐之外呢他甚至我們在討論的在地食材他也會來例如說委託工廠客製化那以在地的食材來做適合學童的產品例如說呢"},{"start":15550.919,"end":15554.002,"text":"祁鈺縣他們有自製小麥嘛所以他們就有小麥跟豬肉做成的包子像福岡的幾十會他們就推出了他們現產大豆的醬油例如說京都的幾十會他們就來做他們京都的豬肉做成的可樂餅"},{"start":15567.375,"end":15596.778,"text":"所以我想這個都是特別為了孩子的營養還有口味來設計相當的貼心但是這樣的一個制度也已經在日本運作了70年當然台灣沒有辦法一觸可擊這個模式也沒有辦法直接移植過來但我想還是可以給我們做一些參考目前其實我們台灣對於例如說我們在偏鄉的學校我們教育部中央也是有補助中央廚房這個部分我們是補助多少錢"},{"start":15597.338,"end":15601.363,"text":"現在每年大概15億我們每年補助了15億運作15億那在這個這個當時會有這樣的想法就是我們的張酷上路之後發現很多偏鄉的學校因為他的數量畢竟比較少所以經濟規模不夠運輸也會困難所以呢有我們中央還有教育部"},{"start":15618.121,"end":15644.186,"text":"跟農業部一起來協助這個偏鄉的學校做聯合的採購我跟委員說明一下從108年大家提出要用專法開始上路其實剛才委員所提到的包括交通的問題包括食材的問題廚房的問題其實都後來陸續發了像偏鄉的中央廚房大概花了60多億在109年到111年的時候設立了專案然後現在每年固定的就是說"},{"start":15645.126,"end":15671.271,"text":"補助他運作就是15億車子可以開交通任何所以15億只是每年的運作但是在前期的設備前期那個已經建制完成我們已經補助了60億那這個部分呢協助偏鄉的學校進行聯合採購然後以及整個食材的聯合供應甚至農業部也有來協助一餐62塊已經補助到62塊了能不能說明一下我目前協助的方式我想謝謝我們請署長來"},{"start":15674.11,"end":15699.558,"text":"在109年之後蓋廚房設225條路線然後補助車子除工訓練除工補助營養師補助100名等等那類似這樣當時花掉63億那111年之後因為它要運作所以我們是整套運作之後每年給15億相關剛才建制之後要運作的包含人的經費啦交通啦這些都把它處理"},{"start":15700.878,"end":15726.992,"text":"有關農業部這邊在張Q的這個協助上在協助各地的小農建置平台來讓張Q能夠在當地落實以致能夠提升比例的部分農業部也非常的努力所以在平地一般地區張Q補助10塊在偏鄉補助14塊這些都有助於讓他那個門檻比較高單價可能比較高的情況下他採購比較容易那為了讓小朋友每一餐能夠均衡所以我們把它"},{"start":15727.872,"end":15752.078,"text":"讓他可以吃到每餐62塊中間差額也是由中央政府來協助是我覺得我們過去在偏鄉的地區因為他很難單獨來進行食材的採購供應運送等等所以我們有一個聯合的方式建立了這個食材供應的平台其實是一個非常好的模式也可以更加的去鼓勵就是使用他所在地的食材當時就是參考那個日本那個模式"},{"start":15753.598,"end":15767.446,"text":"我想未來這個模式我們在跟地方政府討論的時候也可以盡量來鼓勵讓它可以擴及到更多的縣市來推行好不好好 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝那接下來我要請體育署署長次長請回委員好"},{"start":15770.319,"end":15772.861,"text":"我們要討論運產條例這一次我有提案那我希望未來可以跟院本來併案來審查討論那主要三點第一點就是希望未來我們在捐贈我們在鼓勵企業捐贈職業業餘運動的付稅優惠能夠提升我們現行版本也有鼓勵是能夠抵這個稅多少"},{"start":15796.821,"end":15811.671,"text":"百分之一百五是盈利事業的部分現行是一百五是那我們未來有沒有機會再往上來提升幫委員這部分我們目前在因為我們整個政府是一體的我們在行政院裡面我們跟財政部以及我們院內呢"},{"start":15812.812,"end":15814.615,"text":"還正在討論那我們在近期會提出一個願板然後再來我們委員會的時候來做一個審議鼓勵企業來捐贈我們的運動項目這個線型能夠扣除150這個也是2021年的修法所以我希望我們這次既然要修法了"},{"start":15827.972,"end":15832.633,"text":"當然要往上提升那我們希望目標剛剛林執委也提了是能夠來提升到250%我們一起來努力也會提到我的版本當中第二點就是我認為要新增一個項目除了職業業與運動之外我們也要鼓勵如果企業他是捐贈我們房賭基金這也是去年我們一起修法通過的嘛"},{"start":15847.637,"end":15856.864,"text":"希望能夠來推動政府要輔導推動防堵的工作那就是要成立防堵基金那如果企業他願意捐贈給我們防堵基金我認為我們應該也要有相關的這個租稅的優惠來進行鼓勵第三點呢我們運動產業應當要去比照文化產業來輔導企業可以投資"},{"start":15870.633,"end":15877.618,"text":"相關的措施我們現行的法規我看了一下我覺得主要集中在融資但投資其實相當重要其實很多企業願意投資但是他不知道什麼樣的團體需要適合什麼樣的模式這部分署長有什麼樣的想法報告委員其實這部分我們目前在運動部整個籌備過程行政院執行委員都有提到"},{"start":15890.567,"end":15896.274,"text":"我們也是往這個方向在努力當中不過我們最近也是跟國發會這邊也來在細談因為他依照他們過去的對文化相關的這些的協助啦經濟相關的協助那我們這細節我們還在院內還在做一個統整那我們也是希望往這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":15909.551,"end":15932.804,"text":"好那接下來呢是我們運動部要成立嗎在討論當中其中很重要的一點就是全民運動討論到全民運動就會討論到俱樂部那我看了一下過去我們體育署對於俱樂部的輔導大多是透過協會很少有直接但是我們成立運動部最重要就是希望競技運動也要全民化所以未來我們針對俱樂部的運動的輔導預計用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":15937.307,"end":15959.348,"text":"報告委員我想這部分最重要一點其實就是希望把產業的部分的概念把它引進進來當然我們很多的方法包括像我們面臨這個俱樂部推動我們過去有檢討過比較遭的比較遇到的麻煩第一個就是我們專業的這部分能力營運能力這部分是有問題的不足"},{"start":15959.588,"end":15972.142,"text":"第二個我們的社區的設施的確還不夠那再來是我們的這個社區俱樂部它的整個內容其實是比較不夠豐富所以我們接下來第一個當然我們去盤點開發透過公建計畫"},{"start":15974.565,"end":15996.453,"text":"或是校園開放等等我們來增加整個社區可以使用的場館第二個我們希望引進一些基層的運動事業能夠進來跟校方這邊來或是跟校外的這些設施來做承租那機制我們建在眼裡第三個當然就是我們講最重要的是它的內容我們希望聯賽的部分而不是一次性的活動就結束掉了大家往這個方向來推"},{"start":15997.293,"end":16000.936,"text":"我同樣有三點建議第一點就是我剛講我認為未來運動部對俱樂部運動集團體應該要直接輔導然後第二點因為俱樂部現行有非常多不同的性質有的是社區有的是商業的有的是成人有的是兒少的所以不同的俱樂部團體可能需要不同的幫助你們要納入他的差異化那第三點就是剛剛署長有提到場地"},{"start":16018.251,"end":16022.493,"text":"場地非常重要有場地才有運動發展所以呢因為去年我開過一個座談會署長來參加嘛當時我要求你們這個滑板的場地要持續增加你們後來回覆給我說已經有在規劃新北汐止的白袍湖社宅它也是一個運動休閒園區當中你們就會新設一個這個滑板場那目前這個計畫進度怎麼樣因為我聽說預算也遭到困難"},{"start":16042.83,"end":16057.644,"text":"包委員目前的規劃是還有滑板但是至於整個的這個案子是內政部在主導所以案子繼續走還是怎麼樣這個部分我沒有辦法回答好你們要持續去關心好不好那只有一處也是不夠的"},{"start":16058.385,"end":16064.387,"text":"主長我們去年在這裡討論了嘛說上一次的奧運大家說日本的滑板場地練習場社區的跟國際標準都那麼多台灣的實在太少所以還是要持續的包括新北包括台北各縣市持續跟地方政府討論只要他們願意規劃滑板場我們就來給予支持好不好好 謝謝主長 謝謝主席謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":16088.218,"end":16107.704,"text":"現在處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案暨議案請宣讀臨時提案鑑於國訓中心目前即將正式啟動三期整建工程其中有關網球場地的興建部分現系以戶外硬地五面"},{"start":16108.88,"end":16133.638,"text":"風雨球場人工草皮市面之方式進行規劃為查訪各國國訓中心與國家網球訓練基地之規劃幾乎類似之設計應經詢問國內數位精英網球員一點出此種設計如意於天應遞紅土備賽需求之選手及無法利用風雨球場相關訓練資源以及運科器材更失去風雨球場存在用意"},{"start":16134.979,"end":16156.241,"text":"為讓設置的場地運用極大化讓軟網、硬網選手在有訓練區要需求時都能使用避免國家珍貴運動資源之硬體設施無法充分利用問題原請體育署於一個月內邀請國內精英網球運動員提供對於設施興建之建議必要時援引"},{"start":16157.442,"end":16168.813,"text":"足球場設計變更設計之經驗儘速完成相關設計調整提案人 陳培宇 郭益晴 張雅琳吳佩儀 林一錦 范雲 宣讀完畢"},{"start":16171.836,"end":16191.643,"text":"請問提案委員或在場各位委員有無補充說明這個提案就是國訓中心因為即將要三期整建那他的這個網球場地目前的規劃是室內跟戶外是不一樣的那我們是希望說是不是國訓中心可以跟選手有更多的溝通跟討論讓我們未來這個場地是更適合他們來進行練習的"},{"start":16197.912,"end":16226.411,"text":"好 請問次長後官員有無補充說明好 我來說明就是在第二段的部分應該是請國訓中心因為他是行政法人而且他已經動工了當天是我去的那對於內容就是說最後一段的時候原請國訓中心然後倒數第二句必要時援引男女組長這個必要時這個變更設計的部分我們是保留讓他們去開會研議決定好不好這一句刪除這樣子那其他我們就照辦"},{"start":16228.516,"end":16246.553,"text":"沒有問題好 那請問提案委員或在場各位還有沒有其他問題或意見沒有好 謝謝如果沒有意見我們就照案修正通過那我們接著繼續進行質詢那我們有請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":16257.404,"end":16260.168,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":16273.438,"end":16288.118,"text":"市長 本席從上一屆就提案希望可以訂定營養午餐的專法這一屆也有很多委員提案基本上這已經是超越黨派的共同主張"},{"start":16289.6,"end":16318.122,"text":"這個會期教育委員會也召開過公聽會 聆聽各界法會的意見所以在這邊首先要來請教部長當時教育部表示草案已經送到行政院在審議所以首先請教進度如何對 我們在去年113年11月的時候送行政院然後因為那個審議過程中 大概一個月之後我們立法院通過那個裁罰法"},{"start":16318.923,"end":16325.746,"text":"那剛才我有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前這個學校營養午餐法還沒上路之前我們依據學校衛生法16條22條到23條之3事實上我們已經陸續根據委員的建議包括營養師的補助啦偏鄉中央廚房的補助啦這個是在各個項目所以本校請教你們從去年送11月份送現在卡關卡在哪裡"},{"start":16342.975,"end":16360.666,"text":"現在目前就是行政會認為營養午餐的這個事項是屬於地方制度事項那現在每年所均攤的每年所應該例行要補助的已經高達74億那修法如果要再增加的話目前算起來在最少要27 26億多那大概會 哇 次長"},{"start":16364.829,"end":16393.268,"text":"我相信您啊也對教育就是非常的支持不管你在擔任民意代表或現在來擔任次長你都非常的支持我們的教育而且關心我們的孩子那但是如果剛剛陳如你所說的那我要在本席要再請教現在各個委員都提出也就是表示他已經是超越黨派的共同主張所以"},{"start":16394.028,"end":16421.424,"text":"你目前是否同意應該要設定專法來把關學校的營養午餐呢專法是超越黨派的精神讓孩子吃更好更安全那你同不同意設立專法但是中央跟地方的這個未來的地方採訪法之後地方要不要跟中央一起共同來負擔這個黨派還沒有達成共識所以我覺得這個誰跟你沒達成共識所謂的黨派誰反對啊"},{"start":16422.705,"end":16424.306,"text":"市長誰反對啊黨派還沒達成共識地方的縣市首長都是以各縣市的權益為最重要換句話說我們回歸到我們討論我們要把關我們的孩子吃的營養嗎"},{"start":16446.921,"end":16468.482,"text":"每年的74億加修法之後增加了26億如果照你這麼說 那請教行政院版會不會在這個會期會不會送到立法院來會不會如果裁判法的影響沒有好好評估 中央地方還沒有達成共識我們要怎麼去修法 增加這個市長你這個說法讓我蠻壓抑的"},{"start":16472.685,"end":16498.399,"text":"我們今天在討論這個專法你好好去審思接下來我要告訴你為什麼專法很重要監察院在上個月發布了新聞稿他針對於教育部沒有落實把關學校午餐餐點到今天沒有制定學校午餐專法這是監察院所提出各級學校仍有公餐熱量超標"},{"start":16499.46,"end":16522.151,"text":"供應水果類以及乳品類的食品份量不夠還有提供炸物以及魚肉類的半成品次數過多但影響了我們學童的健康發展所以市長在監察院要求教育部必須要檢討改進"},{"start":16524.132,"end":16527.596,"text":"所以市長我們當然有些屬於這個制度上的檢討我們一定會跟地方政府因為執行端在地方政府因為本席告訴你教育部雖然有學校午餐食物內容及營養基準"},{"start":16538.966,"end":16562.58,"text":"但是我們很清楚仍舊有很多的學校還是沒有符合到底是不清楚還是沒有辦法符合所以你們有教育部校園的這個食材登錄平台推動超過10年在這個推動當中你們的午餐資訊甚至有同一個餐點它的熱量它的差距非常的大"},{"start":16563.18,"end":16568.543,"text":"那等於是流域形式所以教育部你要怎麼樣去落實整個稽查制度呢我想這個部分我們會跟地方好好來談好你會繼續來繼續本席要告訴你為什麼專法這麼重要因為人力不足更是你一個重大原因因為你的午餐秘書啊大家都說是在吹工帝啊他也沒有家籍然後輪來輪去的好辛苦"},{"start":16591.494,"end":16601.75,"text":"好辛苦 這樣子的一個情況不斷的輪替 而且1153從業人員薪資偏低造成了年輕人他不敢接所以部長 這個務必要有專法來好好的來討論啊 是嗎"},{"start":16606.798,"end":16614.184,"text":"其實在沒有修專法之前我們也不斷增加營養師的補助啦你講的那個人力你現在所說的是目前樣態它已經產生這個問題所以你要有精進方案啊我們就陸續來加但是這個經費要中央跟地方談所以必須要好好的去精進喔謝謝你最後一個課題我給你喔因為我今天有提案也就是那個運動署我們這個運動產業發展條例"},{"start":16633.74,"end":16649.836,"text":"本席所提第24條跟第26條它的目的就是可以擴大民間企業對於體育活動的一個參與所以次長在這裡 署長在這裡你們有沒有版本 有沒有論版這也是跨越超越"},{"start":16650.656,"end":16661.982,"text":"黨派 大家都提案我們這個已經略為優先法案略為優先法案 進度在哪裡體育署現在已經在開會在研商這個稅賦的部分坦白講還沒達成控制體育署在研商 請問進度請問進度 這個近期會送來立法院嗎"},{"start":16667.51,"end":16694.106,"text":"包委員我們已經開始在審議在詢答了我們已經跟財政部這邊有做了初步的一個你們的KPI什麼時候可以送出來我們應該在最近這兩週會送到行政院來做審議兩週送到行政院因為我們非常的希望因為運動發展部呢我們力拼今年要上路大家全體一起來朝野的委員都已經提案行政院還沒有出來這個覺得"},{"start":16696.479,"end":16707.202,"text":"怪怪的那個法條其實只有一個是名稱的更動那我們就覺得說那個不管是怎麼樣我們的行政院應該要負責任啊沒有問題要有願板嘛這會期一定會送進來大家併審一起來所以要趕快加油我們期待願板趕快進來大家好好討論因為這個產業運動產業發展條例我認為對我們台灣來講的面向是非常的重要我想這部分我會打算公示啦"},{"start":16721.687,"end":16729.291,"text":"你是全力支持嗎有全力支持全力支持啊 所以你速度要加快啊好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊卿英委員的質詢請官員回座 謝謝接下來繼續質詢請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":16746.001,"end":16770.029,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麼本席是不是先請我們教育部次長 張教授次長和我想會計處的這個吳副處長跟公務預算處的專委黃子涵專委一起上來好不好好 請官員以序備諮這是時間的限制 所以我想說先準備著那之後可能彭處長或許某種程度會麻煩您好"},{"start":16773.082,"end":16798.057,"text":"次長您好我們在今天這個學校公餐法的這樣一個議題裡面許多委員都提出了營養午餐的這個相關法案那我們知道在年報告裡面也說這個學校衛生法已經有做了一些規範可是如果在這樣的情況下大家都有這樣子的關心我想裡面點出了一個問題就是人力短缺經費不足還有公餐的品質參差不齊的問題"},{"start":16798.817,"end":16825.932,"text":"那當然很多人都依據了這個監察院所提的一個報告那審計部 抱歉 這個審計部這邊所提到一個報告2019到2024都有這樣子一個狀況那您在剛才回應我也一直聽到對專法的各項的一個評論那本席在這邊就直接問如果您剛才講的那一些考慮的要素都沒有的話您對專法的支持度 您的態度是如何"},{"start":16826.352,"end":16849.583,"text":"我講專訪的精神我們都支持所以精神上您支持所以才會有佈板現在我們有一些要討論的部分現在最大的問題是經費的問題OK 好 謝謝那接下來本席就討論一下營養午餐的補助還有財務方面的一個議題好其實我們現在營養午餐的政策比較已經有狀況的就是經費補助的一個不穩定性根據教育部的報告目前很穩定"},{"start":16850.883,"end":16862.677,"text":"您覺得很穩定嘛那我想這個很重要的一個問題就是說中央跟地方那本席這邊要提到一個問題就是說那目前您的補助大概在74億左右如果我的資料這邊是對的那當然未來你們要討論這個中央跟地方"},{"start":16866.841,"end":16886.375,"text":"我這邊要先提出一個問題很重要的是那全台22個縣市10個縣市提供免費營養午餐那其他縣市要收費那許多偏鄉地區經費就已經不足了只能提供冷便當或者是低價的團餐那這樣子的公餐品質對於偏鄉的學童其實有一些不太公平"},{"start":16887.035,"end":16904.334,"text":"早上在你們的這個討論內容裡面我一直聽到了北一女、建中等等那請市長您可以稍微再關注一下這個偏鄉的狀況目前偏鄉的中央廚房歷屆以來補助六十多億現在每年補助它包括交通費包括運作費用"},{"start":16905.871,"end":16923.424,"text":"已經這個21億好的那您有講到目前補助的這個經費嘛好所以我們有沒有考慮提供最低營養午餐的這個經費讓學童的健康及安全有一些保障其實我們今天其實一直在談就是說我們都願意可是這個經費在財發法之後"},{"start":16925.385,"end":16931.089,"text":"你一直提到財化法嘛 我們就目前的這個狀況市長 我沒有跟你提財化法的任何問題但我們受到財化法的影響是事實 未來的經費分擔確實是事實我覺得這個不能不談 謝謝那我們就談現在遭遇的這個問題剛才本席也聽到前面委員談到營養師那還有一個很重要的問題 本席這邊要談到儲供"},{"start":16949.663,"end":16963.311,"text":"所以一個根本的問題就是人力的問題那這個監察院的相關報告其實也談到每位營養師要監督目前您剛才也講到全國有500位公職的營養師但是每一位營養師要監督的是3600份午餐點每一位營養師縣市要"},{"start":16969.995,"end":16988.05,"text":"負擔八千名學生這你覺得顧得好嗎你的數字 那個委員你的數字可能會有點問題那你提供給我囉好 我們剛才其實報告裡面報告一百一十四年度我們法定應該聘的是四百七十四好 法定嘛你都聘完了嗎實際聘的是聘六百八十一還有專案經理人一百人所以現在有七百八十一人"},{"start":16988.51,"end":17004.08,"text":"那我們的布板修法裡面希望550人一人我們班級人數不太一定以550人為基準的話大概會增加兩億七千多萬我們在布的精神是支持的好 精神上支持嘛那你們一直講才化法那我們就才化法見了好不好"},{"start":17006.121,"end":17019.913,"text":"本席這邊很重要的就是說偏鄉剛才一直講到偏鄉我們不希望你們在處理未來的問題本席今天都沒有跟你談到財化法你自己把本席帶進這個世界所以本席不接受我們在講基本的這個問題在偏鄉未來再考慮到各縣市的財政希望教育部正視這個問題我們不希望"},{"start":17028.939,"end":17039.962,"text":"偏鄉或者是財力比較差的縣市在這個部分受到權益上的不公平最後運動部本席這邊跟你們提醒幾個問題整個運動產業發展條例我們希望這個會期是很重要的優先法案"},{"start":17050.925,"end":17068.571,"text":"但是目前在大家所提的内容上都以租税优惠为主但是我相信府院我们都在讨论如何推动产业化所以我们在除了调整租税优惠那在产业发展的一个长期目标上你们有没有什么做法那个来 署长"},{"start":17070.609,"end":17085.983,"text":"報委員我想運動產業我們面臨一個最主要的問題就是我們的消費人口規律運動人口的確是不夠多所以我們的產業才會在停滯所以我們目前按照總統的這樣一個政見競技運動全民化往這個方向我們來提出提升民眾參與擴大全民運動的一個基本盤"},{"start":17087.745,"end":17097.089,"text":"好的 署長我知道在私下跟您的交流當中其實您對於推動全民或者是用俱樂部或某一些跟內容相關的全民化我想您有很認真的在做但是本席這邊談到產業化那也希望在你這個方向上能夠有更大的一個作為最後提醒兩點"},{"start":17110.735,"end":17127.794,"text":"運動經濟的規劃跟本席從一來就談到單項協會的問題本席今天因為受限時間在這邊不多談但是單項協會如何在我們全民體育跟產業化的過程當中能夠有很好的一個功能這個是我們其實要處理的"},{"start":17128.274,"end":17141.809,"text":"那另外運動競技的證照制度還有資格考核的一致性公平性這個本席在這邊先做提醒那未來我會方法我們會入案好不好OK好謝謝謝謝林倩琴委員的諮詢請官員請回座接著繼續進行諮詢請鄭天才委員諮詢"},{"start":17158.246,"end":17181.031,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝委員好 次長好這個108年4月8號 今天財院做了調查報告有關學生營養午餐的部分教育部也很快的 也是在108年就擬計了這個學校午餐條例也開了很多座談會 協調會然後呢在"},{"start":17187.531,"end":17209.491,"text":"113年1月開始開了六場次的諮詢會議然後也擬定了這個高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例這都很好那現在一直提到這個才化法我們不能因為才化法然後就受影響因為"},{"start":17212.698,"end":17236.008,"text":"財化法不是教育部所可以去擬定的而現在立法院已經覆議行政院要怎麼處理你們要去請教行政院這第一個 第二就當時修財化法而言要給地方政府的3700多億"},{"start":17238.246,"end":17267.322,"text":"也有一個考量超增稅收的部分稅計剩餘的部分都是一個地方政府3700多億的預算來源之一當然這個也不是你可以決定的好那財政收支方法什麼時候會公佈施行到目前為止也是一個不確定好是不是會釋憲 釋憲的結果到什麼時候 何年何月 不知道"},{"start":17268.587,"end":17297.079,"text":"所以就教育部而演就教育部而演就行政院而演就中華民國政府而演要去解決這個事情有沒有辦法解決在這個你的法案條文裡面我們怎麼樣落入落一個條文財政說事化或法文法公佈修正公佈的話就怎麼樣"},{"start":17298.868,"end":17317.578,"text":"你才可以一直上路啊才可以上路好不好這是我的建議啦就怎麼樣就是要跟地方協調啦就是說分擔比例你原來都已經沒有影響到先聽我講你原來跟地方政府已經談了六場次的那時候還沒有裁判法的問題我知道所以你弄一個落日條款"},{"start":17319.654,"end":17342.707,"text":"財政收支方法修正的話怎麼樣如果今年不受影響的話我們都會一定會增加支出 不會減少市長我來 但是修法會增加 請你參考啦我的意見是給你參考 立法院審查會議的教育文化委員會審查的時候也可以做參考為什麼呢各部會現在行政院 院會"},{"start":17344.127,"end":17363.886,"text":"在財政收入方法公佈施行之後照樣審查法案照樣有審法案照樣有做法案到立法院我現在因為還有另外一個議題很重要的議題我們看這個近五年大專校園學生的出債協力從107協年度31.9"},{"start":17369.059,"end":17396.57,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的落差一直擴大到112懸念度擴大到34%這個是一個非常非常嚴重的問題教育對原住民組合園非常非常的重要所以這個部分我過去一直努力本來早期沒有啦因為95年開始"},{"start":17398.996,"end":17415.552,"text":"修了這個辦法本來沒有外加2%後來改為外加2%我們也接受但是實施到現在這麼多年雖然有部分的科學經過溝通協調努力從那個葉俊榮部長開始"},{"start":17419.437,"end":17443.414,"text":"有外加5%的少部分的科系但是一直希望你們增加也都沒有辦法增加所以我具體的建議就是說全部改為外加5%趕快修正因為因為現在少子女化很嚴重啊都沒有招滿啊學校都沒有招滿啊"},{"start":17444.502,"end":17449.416,"text":"我們的因為外加2%的關係我們就沒辦法我們只能"},{"start":17450.407,"end":17474.739,"text":"只能2%的那個入協力所以這個部分這個請教育部趕快的來檢討到底有什麼自愛難行的因為2%高教授跟我說2%其實數量就很大就招不滿了你現在再增加5%還是會有這個問題那到底是什麼問題為什麼招不滿那個原因才比較重要我們來不是我們沒有"},{"start":17475.359,"end":17501.166,"text":"學校沒有招募老師 但是我們考不上因為我們外加百分之二 我們就考不上啦現在高雄市這邊他們的講法就是說資料就是說你百分之二的名額你都沒有滿了你再增加百分之五 還是不會滿那個問題 結構性的因素是什麼比較重要哪些科系沒有滿 哪些學校提供資料總是要去面對啦我認為是直接就改為外加百分之五"},{"start":17502.386,"end":17519.8,"text":"我想這個要研究啦好不好因為那很嚴重啊34%多的差距好我們來努力批評這個差距謝謝委員的關心謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員質詢有請官員回座接下來我們繼續質詢請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":17532.299,"end":17540.166,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席了政務司長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們張廖次長次長被質詢謝謝"},{"start":17543.554,"end":17565.32,"text":"市長,今天我們談學校午餐法,偏鄉設央廚,學校午餐納長輩,老幼共餐處,共學處,跨部會分工,我們來看一下,因為有個題目先問一下,今天有人在問,請看下一頁,藍白三預算影響國軍出國深造,最近在臉書上網路上有說,有一個人說呢,因為呢,有一個人當事人向國家申請獎學金呢,被立法院預算三的停發,"},{"start":17566.909,"end":17586.609,"text":"部長有聽到這樣的一個網路消息嗎台灣博士生因為藍白山預算獎學金留學的獎學金暫時停發延宕一年有沒有因為是剛才委員質詢那我之前有聽說有聽說那你們看到說當事人也澄清了他不是拿教育部的經費是嗎所以我們也澄清了那結果這個是什麼是拿國防部的這個當事人是不是拿國防部的"},{"start":17590.868,"end":17608.171,"text":"所以我們看到國外旅會及出國教育訓練費教育部是統三百分之六十可留用但是國防部呢所屬的統三十五不能留用所以國防部的罪名受到影響嘛是不是這樣這部分可能要國防部那邊國防部來回問那教育部會不會受影響目前有沒有受到影響"},{"start":17609.588,"end":17628.345,"text":"目前教育部有沒有公費留考的留學但是我們的業務費裡面25%裡面具體的影響目前還在盤查當中好 請密切注意我們不希望有這樣的情況發生來 我們開始看下一頁目前超高齡社會以我屏東的長幼人口的比例來看因為我們屏東縣大概不到79萬"},{"start":17629.426,"end":17647.502,"text":"六到十五歲的在學人口就是國民教育人口呢77.3%那六十五歲呢反而是20.4%將近三倍好那這個嚴重的情況呢我再舉個例子讓你知道什麼情況來往下看那以車神鄉為例你知道車神鄉是誰的故鄉嗎"},{"start":17649.661,"end":17672.714,"text":"我們潘孟安秘書長的故鄉車城鄉65歲的長輩有1753人但是車城國中跟車城國小全部的在學人口6到15歲的一共不到600人我們現在想想看部長請教一下 次長請教一下假如要在車城辦營養午餐你覺得有可能用個中央廚房嗎"},{"start":17674.256,"end":17677.26,"text":"其實地方政府如果提出計畫的話你們會為600個不到的學生的地區設一個央廚嗎央廚我們有一個經濟規模"},{"start":17683.838,"end":17704.157,"text":"這個央處的話中央廚房的話大概都是大概兩三千人吧但是它會有一個是的有個公餐區但是也不能太遠啊你太遠的話呢超過備餐時間會有營養品質的問題對不對好往下看來我們來看一下老幼共學是一個補償的學習為什麼要提到老幼共學呢你知道嗎現在什麼時候實施九年國教的"},{"start":17705.825,"end":17731.905,"text":"1968年好所以說現在70歲以上的長輩啊當年他年輕的時候不是他私學是國家沒有提供他念國中的機會是不是這樣子可是現在孩子可以念12年啊對不對所以你認為如果現在有機會讓這些70歲以上的長輩回到校園來是一種補償的心理是不是可以補償他當然如果這個地方有一個完備的比較好的一個規劃就補償他嘛對在政策性引導這是一個好的未來"},{"start":17732.245,"end":17757.381,"text":"所以我們說老幼共學其實不是因為年輕的孩子少了我們把老人家抓來學校 不是是這些長輩在年輕的時候因為國家的設備資源不足他們失去了這三年可以再學的學習期間我們要補償他 我們現在看所以我們來看一下屏東的我們老幼共學領先台北市五年我們利用老人日照 私自據點和學校的閒置空間讓社區共同使用來老幼共學但是老幼共學有一個問題"},{"start":17759.342,"end":17776.807,"text":"長輩他對於到學校裡面去學什麼國中小的課程沒有興趣你知道長輩最有興趣做什麼事情嗎最有興趣是什麼做實作他希望把他的生命經驗跟小朋友分享然後呢從小朋友那邊得到他對現在的知識小朋友最常教長輩什麼事情你知道嗎小朋友在老幼過程中最常教長輩怎樣利用手機網路"},{"start":17785.328,"end":17800.477,"text":"好 往下看來 那麼另外我們提到跨世代學習也在屏東屏東基督教醫院發展的食農勞用共學用農學 食農教育的基礎讓長輩跟小朋友共同去了解好 最後要講結論了往下看以鄉圍單位來共餐"},{"start":17802.398,"end":17824.651,"text":"教育部支持之下在屏東縣投資了將近2億做了一個宿舍跟中央廚房可以供應500份午餐大同中學在屏東市區我的母鄉那邊好幾個國中加起來學生整個500份呢還不夠所以如果以鄉鎮為公餐單位來設營養午餐的央廚的話恐怕都會可以偏鄉做不到是不是這樣子"},{"start":17825.796,"end":17841.69,"text":"沒有錯好 那我們往下看所以呢我之前在2020年的12月的院會執行我提出鄉鄉有央廚但是呢現在又加上三張EQ教育部有經費支持 是不是我們政府來設立央廚食材才統一的國產品教育部支持嘛"},{"start":17842.884,"end":17868.57,"text":"支持但是這樣就成鄉分佈不均啊我們大概只能在這些人口密集區設秧族人口細胞遞廣人稀的地方恐怕有困難怎麼辦來我給你一個建議什麼意思把供應能量如果大於在學的學生還記得車城鄉嗎車城鄉的學生不到600個可是老人家有1700多個如果把這些的共產隊拿進來車城鄉設個秧族有效益的您同意嗎"},{"start":17869.998,"end":17896.008,"text":"獨具老人 文化健康站 關懷據點還有學校都納進來這個跨單位的話我們就是要對 跨單位說要分工嘛 往下看最後 鄉鄉有央廚 跨部會來促成實現教育部來協助在學校的空間設央廚衛福部幫長輩的餐食經費補貼而教育部可以媒合農業部可以媒合在地食材您覺得這樣的部會分工 您支持嗎教育部支持嗎"},{"start":17896.308,"end":17904.007,"text":"如果部會能夠分工 那屏東已經有小規模事辦成功的例子我覺得是可以來考慮的好 謝謝主席站起來 這是我的結論"},{"start":17906.755,"end":17927.008,"text":"超高齡社會把教育權利還給長輩提供老幼共學並以共餐為基礎讓老人家來學校吃一頓午餐同時來一個老幼共學另外鄉鄉有央廚希望能夠跟農業部還有衛福部共同的合作將我們央廚的共餐的對象把長輩引納入我們共同來推動好不好好謝謝委員關心謝謝謝謝市長謝謝主席"},{"start":17929.617,"end":17932.504,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝我們接著繼續質詢 請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":17947.213,"end":17961.383,"text":"好 感謝主席 麻煩請我們張廖次長跟體育署政署長請次長 署長對質詢好來 次長 署長 簡單先請教有沒有看到最近日本有什麼樣的體育大事"},{"start":17962.349,"end":17989.136,"text":"就是那個稻妻跟那個小熊小熊的海外賽嘛對不對那在前幾天在記者會的時候大谷翔平選手也被問到當時應該是我們台灣的媒體朋友有問他說有沒有考慮過在台灣來打比賽那他那時候很當然很客氣啦他是個身為世界一級的棒球員他回答是說如果能夠在台灣球迷面前比賽是很幸福的事情"},{"start":17989.676,"end":18008.617,"text":"好 那也有人開始有討論我們有沒有機會因為去年是在韓國打MLB的海外賽今年在日本打MLB的海外賽那有沒有機會我們有爭取的空間其實已經在談就是說這個台灣也可以爭取不過如果從現實面來看"},{"start":18009.938,"end":18028.407,"text":"因為明年有經典賽那後年可能又遇到那個十二強或者是那個奧運的那個選拔那二零二八會有奧運賽所以其實在討論結果最可能是在二零二八之後是等於有看到我們中華時報的會長也是我們立院同事蔡吉昌會長有講到他講的確實是目前比較有可能的時間點是那站在教育部這邊當然未來的運動部我想也都會支持這樣之類"},{"start":18038.131,"end":18057.291,"text":"不管是教育部或是未來的運動部其實本席有一個很大的想法跟期待在於是說這雖然是NLB官方所主導的但是就各地方不管日本不管韓國其實他們政府的力量給予支持也有很大的一個部分那一樣台灣在棒球來講是我們的國球"},{"start":18058.772,"end":18084.327,"text":"我們也希望是說能夠把最高水準的比賽來到台灣甚至因為他們這一次到期跟小熊打他們還先跟日本的職棒球隊交流熱身所以他其實對於整體的運動產業發展帶動絕對是有正向幫助市長你同意吧對我想我同意就像韓子其實這今年也來了三隊也在打熱身賽也引起了好幾千人在看所以我覺得那個是非常好的一個現象"},{"start":18084.667,"end":18112.617,"text":"所以我們從現在假設我當然不是說馬上期待說明年NLB就可以來我們這邊打海外賽但是如果假設以二零二八二零二九為一個目標五年的一個計劃次長有什麼想法我跟你講身為球迷的你跟我我們都期待如果我們有這個能力來邀請那地方這個各民間也都配合包括中子大聯盟因為一定要是那個職棒聯盟來協助才有可能的話那我樂觀其成而且會全力促進"},{"start":18113.997,"end":18128.031,"text":"當然不只樂觀其成還要全力促成那促成很大的一個部分就是我們今天要提到的運產條例的一個修法24條跟26條嘛2021年的時候那時候大家一起共同推動就是讓它有150%的這樣的一個"},{"start":18130.233,"end":18150.377,"text":"優惠稅額能夠來支持我們的運動產業帶動整體的發展那我請教兩三年過去了這幾年的這個帶動投入這個產業的這個金額數量金額其實是在成長不過就是說到第二年已經到10億左右然後到去年是11億左右那我們的上限是多少上限是30億還沒用到對啊"},{"start":18153.496,"end":18173.987,"text":"市長所以這是為什麼我們提出來修法這是環環相扣的喔就是說我們希望有更高水準的比賽來我們台灣但另外一個部分我們給予的不管是支持讓這些企業支持運動產業的部分我們有沒有那個可以在更鬆綁的空間或是更加強的力道因為2021年150%到現在我們那時候設了30億的天花板可是這兩年只有10億跟11億"},{"start":18182.432,"end":18188.029,"text":"所以距離那30%的天花板我們還有20億的成長空間那不能"},{"start":18189.485,"end":18212.085,"text":"我們就是想說那沒關係反正就150%要來院者上鉤要投就投不投拉倒所以本席以及我們今天不管藍綠的委員也都有提出相關的修法版本可能有希望是說調高200%250%等等的部分那請教因為你們今天教育部給我們的回覆是涉及公平性建議跟行政院版本並案討論"},{"start":18213.246,"end":18235.392,"text":"那什麼時候行政院版本會出來我們兩個禮拜會送行政院兩個禮拜內送行政院檢查所以現在已經有研議了包括說可能討論我到200%的時候可能會增加多少250%增加多少或者是因為每一個政策一定都會有邊際效應嘛我可能到哪一個程度的時候是收益最高你譬如說放寬到500%說不定反而沒有250%來的效果好"},{"start":18239.374,"end":18254.348,"text":"這點您可以理解嗎所以兩個禮拜後會送行政院那行政院會不會很快的還是要再交其他財政部等相關的部會甚至他有沒有辦法通過院版正式送到立法院有信心在這個會期送出來嗎"},{"start":18255.829,"end":18279.284,"text":"對我想一定會因為行政委員已經列為本會期的優先法案所以我們一定會送進來跟委員的案並審那在不管有沒有動的法條我們都願意來聆聽委員的意見好所以剛剛次長特別提到了就是說這個會期行政院運產條例24、26條以及其他條文的修正院版會送進來立法院我們在併案討論我們等你會期喔這個會期到531喔只剩兩個月喔"},{"start":18285.046,"end":18311.14,"text":"OK沒有問題我們來努力市長突然間搖身票好像變院長的感覺了那麼拍胸部保證我欣賞你的努力我也希望真的能夠送進來因為這樣子我們共同來討論還可以真真正正幫助到我們運動產業進一步的築更大的夢好不好好謝謝謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢官員請回座謝謝那我們接著繼續質詢請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":18320.822,"end":18324.067,"text":"謝謝教委 我可不可以請政事有請次長備詢"},{"start":18327.678,"end":18343.525,"text":"謝謝政策 我希望等一下你對我的回應也可以像回答洪孟凱這樣子我想這幾個條例不管是哪一個政黨委員大家都很關注希望可以這個會期通過部長我是一個孩子的媽媽我相信你也是為人父我應該沒錯嗎學校的營養午餐非常重要不僅要兼顧他是足夠營養但更重要的是他要好吃"},{"start":18352.808,"end":18381.367,"text":"再營養不好吃的孩子不願意吃全部都丟掉那叫做浪費到最後變成下午去買零食一下課衝去買零食買飲品這個就被造成最後肥胖症我們台灣的孩子很多只是超過那個營養不良的狀況太瘦或太胖都有反而是不健康這個是我要關注的議題那我也關注到兒萌為這個國中生營養午餐評分的時候其實只有對於我們現在營養午餐只有51.3"},{"start":18382.908,"end":18402.752,"text":"这是一个不及格的分数营养午餐不够营养或不够好吃这都是现在的问题那因为我今天时间不够多包括我们现在营养午餐每周够用两次以上的眼菜罐头还有碗内的食品还有包括还有重组的七块培根等等都是有问题的那整理而言不到三成也就是27.9%的菜色全部被吃光这就是我刚才讲的"},{"start":18407.433,"end":18424.67,"text":"營養午餐味道不夠好太油或這都造成剩菜的原因到最後變成孩子去下課趕快衝去買零食來裹腹這個是現在最大的問題那另外一塊也就是我們現在的營養午餐其實就是我們現在食安系統性的另外一個"},{"start":18425.771,"end":18451.366,"text":"有可能發生問題因為餐點常常比較早做悶了好久或不夠安全或運送的過程有問題反而造成系統性的食安問題這個是我們現在發生最大的狀況包括現在2023年有1491人攝取我們的營養午餐發生問題所以營養午餐有可能有系統性的問題所以"},{"start":18452.907,"end":18479.367,"text":"我要就教於政次你也是父親我想我們都有同樣的感覺知道營養午餐的這個草案其實非常重要我們2019年就已經提出來我們希望趕快把這個營養午餐條例可以出去但現在都已經是第三個會期談到現在所以我們營養午餐法我非常希望在這一次大家各政黨支持之下不同版本大家有共識之下可以盡速的完成"},{"start":18480.107,"end":18502.696,"text":"我們現在營養午餐的全國大概只有630名營養師在做協助其他沒有營養師的部分就是教職員 護理師 營養師兼任有營養師的也就算了但是這次你應該清楚知道我要講的現在學校的老師 教職員又有行政業務 又要教學 又要備新的課程"},{"start":18503.576,"end":18518.268,"text":"其實是非常辛苦他還要再堅韌管理營養午餐所以營養午餐管不管得好你我心裡都有數所以很難把營養午餐照顧得全心全意我們希望達到的目標做得更好"},{"start":18519.148,"end":18539.891,"text":"這就是現在在學校營養午餐的問題這也是凸顯出我們營養午餐條例這個法案競訴必須要送出最主要的目的所以我想你我都不希望都希望回歸到專職去處理營養午餐絕對不再是由教職員兼職我說到現在你應該同意我的說法"},{"start":18540.131,"end":18554.419,"text":"校職員兼職已經改善了就是現在的那個比例已經降低就是這幾年來108年我們大概提出午餐專法還沒有立專法之前我們也是依照學校衛生法在做管理我知道但是你降低了比例其實這都不應該是"},{"start":18555.74,"end":18559.886,"text":"都不應該是教職員去兼任我知道你有降低我們是逐年在改善但是他畢竟不是專業我們希望就是由營養師來去做處理由護理師來去做處理由教職員來做處理雖然你說降低比例但由他來處理還是怪怪的"},{"start":18572.364,"end":18578.647,"text":"所以我覺得這不應該是我覺得我們的目標應該是由專人來去處理營養午餐我們的目標應該是這樣而不是由教職員來專任嘛那我覺得這個都不是應該是我們教育部主管應該有的態度所以這是第一個點我覺得這個法案送出去大家有共識盡速的處理因為已經談了三個會期了我想大家有共識應該盡速的處理"},{"start":18597.936,"end":18624.318,"text":"那另外我要提到就是譬如說芬蘭跟瑞典他們有提供義務教育的營養午餐包括日本都有給食的相關的設備包括運送的過程經費都是有國家負擔所以我再一次提醒就是說我們這個法案送出的時候有一些學校我們可能經費不足或偏鄉經費不足我們應該去思考說包括給食的設備包括營運的這部分陸續都有補償"},{"start":18625.579,"end":18645.717,"text":"對 我們希望不是互循 因為有的地方有 有的地方多 有的地方少所以曾賜 所以我想這個部分我覺得我都希望是整部法案裡面我們把它討論得更周延 更完整不會有偏鄉成鄉的差距這是以上我今天質詢的重點也希望這個會期大家有共識可以儘速的通過好 謝謝委員關心謝謝曾賜 謝謝"},{"start":18649.157,"end":18655.499,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員質詢 觀眾請回座我們接下來繼續進行質詢 請吳思瑤委員質詢謝主席 請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝委員 委員好"},{"start":18668.348,"end":18686.196,"text":"次長辛苦了已經中午了大家都需要休息但我也很快速的掌握我僅有的時間我今天在這邊聆聽教文會委員的質詢我不斷的聽到在野黨的委員說不要跟我講才化法今天不是講才化法"},{"start":18687.236,"end":18713.195,"text":"但问题是财化法就是各级政府财政的根本大法它等于是国家财政的准限法任何的预算执行何况现在要另立新法都关乎制度的健全以及预算哪里来怎么可以不谈财化法呢在野党的委员是不是肇事逃逸啊"},{"start":18714.511,"end":18734.101,"text":"修了才化法最後屁股拍拍走了不要跟我講才化法不要跟我講才化法我認為這不是理性負責的國會議員那這幾天我召集了教育部從國教到高教各個私處我們不斷地在搶救教育預算"},{"start":18734.921,"end":18762.582,"text":"所以今天我要跟您來討論本席在這幾屆立委的任內我投入催生我爭取的預算我當然特別在乎我不希望他因為總預算扼山扼東我更不希望他因為才化法來讓整個預算都喊咔都斷錘首先我聚焦在美學教育您知道思瑤最最在乎的夏業"},{"start":18764.523,"end":18788.416,"text":"自曉你一定非常熟悉學美美學計畫六年了當初從無到有 吳思堯一路催生2020年我們學美美學的計畫雖然是小規模 小預算 小計畫但是它有大影響 大效益它甚至獲得日本Good Design設計大獎的年度世界大獎Best of the Best"},{"start":18789.016,"end":18814.654,"text":"以前是台灣人去日本看日本的校園空間改造現在是日本人帶團隊來台灣學習六年的學文美學計畫校園空間改造完成了109所學校教師專業發展空間也完成了三個縣市獲得補助但是但是他預算可能沒了下一頁"},{"start":18815.695,"end":18831.427,"text":"第二个也是本席催生努力的美感教育刚刚讲的是空间环境现在讲的是整个课程内容美感教育一样是六年有成进入了第三期我们完成了2960个课程案例"},{"start":18834.89,"end":18863.209,"text":"培育出2133位的种子教师我们全台湾有1907个学校参与受惠的学生高达47万人而现在我们更跟文化部扩大合作美感体验的教育下业所以次长预算被二砍二删然后明年还面对才化法各个私处大家都"},{"start":18864.42,"end":18879.227,"text":"人心惶惶大家都很擔心那個中央一個指令因為立法院砍了三七五三一挖走了然後各個部會都要從自己的業務去尊潔百分之二十八點七"},{"start":18880.447,"end":18895.529,"text":"我很擔心我不樂見所有的美學美感的教育最後會被犧牲如果你們優先從這些美學美感的教育因為大家覺得文化是什麼吃飽了肚子再說"},{"start":18896.85,"end":18923.778,"text":"優先從這些美學美感已經非常有規模很可能因為它喊咔斷吹而復之一炬功虧一簣我在這裡請求真的是請求學美美學計畫預算不多只有五千四百萬一年由師藝司跟國教署分擔而美感教育第三級每年三點三億是中央要補助地方跟地方政府還有文化部來協力"},{"start":18925.558,"end":18951.623,"text":"絕對不要動到我們的美感美學教育可以嗎努力嘛可以嗎我為文化發聲我想我們這部分是真的很想努力不過整體的衝擊真的還是有待評估我只提點您不要因為文化是吃飽了以後再去面對的是台灣過去有這種錯的思維這些預算不應當被優先犧牲我只做這個提醒"},{"start":18951.943,"end":18978.831,"text":"好 謝謝 我想地方政府我們會提醒他們就是要接好 錢接好了 業務也要接好因為我是計畫的催生者 我比誰都在乎下一個 回到今天主題我再佔用兩分鐘 不好意思主席 謝謝校園飲食法其實我是立法院第九屆第一個提出法案的第十屆我也有提出校園飲食法但是這一屆我自己的法案還持續的在研議我還沒有丟出來 為什麼"},{"start":18980.592,"end":18993.387,"text":"因為我知道我們要增加資源增加人員中央想做可是地方政府還沒有共識所以現在如果立法委員覺得修法立法很簡單我條文寫一寫丟出去就好而不管他能不能夠執行我認為這樣不負責任"},{"start":18999.654,"end":19014.788,"text":"立法委員來自各個縣市大家如果想修這個專法那大家負責任回去跟自己所屬的縣市政府來協助溝通您同意吧我同意這個這樣才能夠加速讓立法真的能夠完成下一頁"},{"start":19015.709,"end":19031.681,"text":"而關鍵就是才化法嘛您剛報告說得很清楚現在已經擴大了幫助各級政府補助每年74億讓學生吃得健康吃得安全吃得有品質吃得有文化每年74億未來如果現在趕快立法還要再增加人力營養師午餐殖密每年還要plus26億我們認為要做但是誰來買單"},{"start":19043.01,"end":19055.439,"text":"這就是我說的如果各位委員認為立這個專法如此重要我也在乎我是第一個提出倡議的委員但是大家把這個責任帶回去一起協助跟地方政府來討論未來才化法3753億回歸各個地方地方也有責任來協助分擔這樣這個活動有可能用錢走對不對"},{"start":19068.977,"end":19078.553,"text":"現在是教育部面臨最大的現實的問題你們持續溝通中好 最後兩頁很快的說如果沒有這個專法 我們的校園食安就做不了嗎"},{"start":19080.596,"end":19099.007,"text":"這幾年來我們用了學校衛生法作為best我們修改了所有教育部的行政規章我們落實了校園食安防護網我敢說是史上最嚴的我們的三張EQ從2019年的普及率只有56%到現在2024年年底已經來到98.67%三張EQ看到成果我們另外給蘿蔔也給棒子"},{"start":19110.134,"end":19118.319,"text":"提高學生的餐食補助史上最高一個學生一餐補十塊中央給錢偏鄉給十四塊中央買單這是蘿蔔棍子是什麼我當初跟著國教署長您還是立委我們一起跟國教署把3368個學校的營養午餐團善契約一個一個拿出來看從契約下手我們要確保學生在校園吃的每一口肉每一口菜都是Made in Taiwan對不對"},{"start":19140.915,"end":19153.385,"text":"所以史上最好的食安防護網我們努力做到如果還有不夠我們繼續精進但是不能夠以藥力專法才做得到我認為這個說法太過簡化"},{"start":19156.787,"end":19177.618,"text":"對 其實陸續在做 108年大家提出專法還沒有落實的時候都透過學校衛生法 透過行政的手段不斷的增加資源 解決偏鄉的問題 補助弱勢兒童還有食材的補助 我想都一直陸續在做是 好 最後一頁 謝謝主席 我知道您站起來了我們也要透明公開 食材的追溯溯源也在我們上一屆做到了"},{"start":19178.018,"end":19204.151,"text":"伍思瑤催生了比較我們疫情的疫情儀錶板我們催生了校園豬肉儀錶板所有的食材溯源Made in Taiwan的食材每一個學校都可以追蹤包括老師包括家長所以現在還沒有專法之前行政作業能夠做的一定要持續強化但是如果要立專法我們就要負責任的跟地方政府協調好經費的分擔這才是正辦"},{"start":19207.373,"end":19210.958,"text":"就朝這個方向在做好 也謝謝主席我們跨黨派一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":19228.031,"end":19242.857,"text":"謝謝主席請次長大家也辛苦了請次長被質詢辛苦了謝謝我們今天在談這個營養午餐結果大家午餐都還沒有吃委員好不吃了我在去年去年我們有辦過共聽會"},{"start":19244.257,"end":19259.854,"text":"關於這個營養午餐有辦過公聽會那其實在去年底的時候的總諮詢我也問過卓院長就是說本席當然是希望能夠制定這個學校午餐的專法啦當然有幾個點出來就是說第一個我們這個要強化兒少的"},{"start":19261.176,"end":19264.278,"text":"飲食營養的教育補足校園午餐的專業能力確保學校營養午餐的經費能夠透明公開鼓勵學校自設廚房減少食安的風險讓營養午餐成為教育的一環"},{"start":19280.191,"end":19305.251,"text":"那當時候我是有這個想法啦那我在總諮詢的時候也問這個卓院長就是當時候的這個黑白大廚啊這個韓國列印集這裡面有一位進入這個前十名是一個學餐的廚師叫做李美英然後呢這個為什麼韓國的這個學餐廚師能夠進入這個黑白大廚的前十名那發現說"},{"start":19306.973,"end":19321.424,"text":"韓國因為他們有學校給食法每個學校他們的廚房都是用公辦公營的模式所以每個學童每餐的預算高達新台幣是200塊所以他們預算夠而且是公辦公營能夠讓廚師廚工能夠做出非常美味讓學生能夠吃得很好也很有營養的營養午餐"},{"start":19335.675,"end":19342.178,"text":"那其實那時候我還問這個卓院長說那是不是這個能夠去學校吃一下營養午餐看一下說現在的這個營養午餐跟他所認為的營養午餐有沒有這個差別"},{"start":19352.193,"end":19371.379,"text":"談到這邊我主要還是要問這個次長因為這個財劃法這個附議案沒有過那在你們的報告裡面有提到我認為這還是主要的原因就是說財劃法沒有通過所以你們每年要補助這一個經濟弱勢學生的這個74億總共加起來74億就是"},{"start":19376.681,"end":19397.487,"text":"補助經濟優勢學生午餐21億然後學校午餐採用國產可溯源的食材補助38億然後推動中央這個偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫15億這74億這74億是我們是全額補助地方嗎是我們都是全額補助地方這74億就是中央負擔的部分全部都是中央負擔好"},{"start":19398.308,"end":19415.769,"text":"那現在因為財務法復議案沒有過那中央的這個整個預算大概有3700多億要下放到地方那我們先不管國防預算國防事務教育部的預算大概有28%左右會被釋出那所以接下來這74億的補助就沒有辦法"},{"start":19417.651,"end":19444.132,"text":"就是要由地方自己來處理就對了我們是認為如果將來要去談這個權利義務的話那這一部分應該我參與地方制度法裡面規定是地方權限所以這一部分是不是能夠移交由地方來負擔就是我們一直在談這個錢跟權要把它談清楚那如果說地方現在因為財化法釋出了這麼多的財源那所以呢在這部分的話就是中央希望說未來就是由地方政府自己來做處理就對了"},{"start":19444.893,"end":19459.579,"text":"我們目前是這樣子的一個方向然後還有說這個26億是這個有關這個營養師午餐的這個植密還有廚房設備等等這總共加起來26億是如果我們這一次的專法在修的話最少"},{"start":19461.059,"end":19484.75,"text":"最少譬如說營養師我們按照這個布板的550人一個的話那我們必須要再增加263那大概2億7千多萬那這部分其實都用在國中小啦所以我們是希望說是不是就由財化法之後他的財源增加了就是由地方來吸收那這個部分修法還沒修嘛那你修法之後增加地方的負擔是不是應該跟地方政府跟他協商好"},{"start":19485.65,"end":19514.13,"text":"對 那有些地方財化法受益比較多有些地方他覺得他沒有受益那這個要如何協調也是一個技術啦好 那所以我聽很多委員對次長這個質詢還有你的回覆就是說我們教育部希望這個未來如果有一個營養午餐專法的話精神你們都是支持我們是支持的但是在預算這方面在經費這方面能夠再跟地方政府對 中央地方一起來談啦就是說這個"},{"start":19515.391,"end":19537.356,"text":"這個權利義務真的要談清楚我們來修法那個將來才有辦法落實或者那個教育金會這樣處在不穩定的狀況下那裁判法到底會影響教育部多少預算大家都還在盤所以是談好我們沒有辦法輕易在修法過程裡面承諾要跟過去一樣百分之百補助地方沒有辦法所以是談好之後沒有能力啦教育部會有個版本出來嗎如果能夠談成的話如果能夠談成的話好"},{"start":19543.464,"end":19571.161,"text":"那這個是有關營養午餐這部分那我再用一點點時間我談一下昨天這一個在台中發生一個事情就是一個台中的一個小學的一個棒球教練那他被查出來就是說他被檢方都起訴了嘛他這個罪行是非常的重大七年的期間對41名學童下手犯案的次數高達90次檢察官說這個要請法院從重量刑"},{"start":19571.781,"end":19593.835,"text":"那這個已經是最後的結果 我就想說 過程 前面的這個原因就是說這其實這個松信教練 他已經有這個前科了 他也被判緩刑了但是呢 他持良民證進入學校擔任教練我請問一下 這個我們的機制出了問題還是台中市政府教育局這個學校出了問題"},{"start":19594.895,"end":19615.911,"text":"報告委員,我想這個機制我們前一陣子有去做,透過國道署跟地方有做一個補強,就是說他們學校人員會輪動,所以承辦人員常常忘記要去做不適任教室的查詢,那我們現在要求他們每個學校在聘外聘教練的時候都要去做合約的簽訂,教練本身要願意給各自,然後學校這邊也提醒這個承辦人員一定要去做不適任教室的查詢,把這個洞補起來。"},{"start":19617.159,"end":19645.019,"text":"所以是現在是發生是這個學校他們沒有去做查詢那如果他們有查詢的話是查得到嗎是查得到不一定不一定喔我們這個這個個案是查得到的吧這個個案是查得到那什麼情況下會查不到報告委員那個就是在應該說過去啦社團的部分在不是學校的編制內或者是計劃前教練的部分的確有這樣的漏洞那目前已經開始跟補起來了"},{"start":19645.299,"end":19667.191,"text":"有補起來了嗎?我們跟國道署這邊目前正在做討論署長這邊已經跟我做一個討論所以我這樣聽是還沒有補起來就對了就是說它是屬於因為學校都有課後的社團課後社團這一部分因為它不一定是老師可是他們是進來學校教課所以它有可能它沒有在這個記錄裡面通報的這個記錄裡面就對了"},{"start":19673.789,"end":19692.898,"text":"對如果說你要進入校園大概都會去取得良民證嘛那良民證裡面就會有他有沒有前科這是最基本的這有確定嗎對對對他就會去查那查的話當然我們就把它放在那個系統裡面去查如果是確定沒有的話那就沒有如果有的話那沒有被查出來那當然就是這個過程就會有問題但是剛剛這個署長他所提到的說有關於"},{"start":19695.959,"end":19706.799,"text":"有關於這部分就是說他是課後社團的這些老師要不要我看這個國教署長跟這個體育署長在這種類很多要不要一個比較完整性的一個回答"},{"start":19708.757,"end":19732.225,"text":"性平的案件只要進入校園教任何的外聘教練不管是屬於什麼性質的他只要犯到類似性平的案件都會進入?都會有嗎?確定嗎?這要確定喔?那我在講就是說現在還是說那個學校的一個棒球隊還有另外一個教練他也涉及到這個性平的案件"},{"start":19732.825,"end":19741.456,"text":"但是呢他說這個沒有達到不得聘任外聘教練的必要程度那所以呢這是去年十二月底我不確定說現在的資料怎麼樣那後來咧"},{"start":19746.547,"end":19760.858,"text":"後來他還有在其他學校繼續擔任教練嗎我想你關心是我們會把這個資料再給委員是 這個時間關係那我想請部外官員用書面方式來回覆這不能讓這個已經有這個這個性評案件的這一個教練再繼續再擔任教練啊這個洞你們要補起來啊"},{"start":19763.76,"end":19776.91,"text":"我們會跟地方政府好好研商好謝謝好謝謝市長好謝謝主席李坤城委員質詢李坤城委員質詢好官員請回座謝謝那我們接下來繼續質詢請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":19787.625,"end":19813.371,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長 次長辛苦了 午安好 請次長被質詢 謝謝我時間還沒有 等一下 因為同一天還沒出來好了嗎 好 不好意思 主席我可以問一下 這個電視是壞掉了嗎時間可以暫停嗎 等一下時間請暫停我們看一下那個 那邊的螢幕是不是是可以運作 還是可能有按到開關麻煩請醫事人員協助"},{"start":19818.012,"end":19822.654,"text":"好 那次長要不要喝口水 好了 好了 好了剛剛是把我們關掉嗎 好又沒了 我的鴨皮都沒了需要阿宅來幫忙嗎 也是不用啦一個螢幕讓這個柯總召都要出馬了這個螢幕要乖一點"},{"start":19848.714,"end":19852.576,"text":"這個可能螢幕比較 這看到柯總召來 他比較這個比較那個 儀式尊重謝謝總召 好 我們今天就詢答結束了時間繼續謝謝次長 這個先往下好了體育班這題我們繼續討論"},{"start":19866.343,"end":19893.659,"text":"好 來 次長營養午餐今天已經很多委員講了過去大概有74億是由中央補助地方我們今天早上一路聽下來次長我有一個建議啦才化法這麼辛苦對不對剛剛看起來確實是一個困境要不要乾脆如果地方政府難以溝通導致摯愛難行可是修法沒有辦法完成的任務又必須要教育部承擔我們要不要乾脆攤開來中央政府跟地方政府你攤開來給家長看"},{"start":19895.4,"end":19923.35,"text":"讓家長知道我們到底要找誰問以下我要問的十個問題因為過去以來專法從我上任第一天我就講到現在已經過去兩年了但是我在研究的那個過程當中我才發現確實有非常多議題它不僅只是食安的問題也不是只有費用的問題也不是只有人員的問題不是只有法規的問題也不是只有地區跟偏鄉差異的問題有非常非常多問題但聽下來次長你認不認同如果"},{"start":19924.15,"end":19939.925,"text":"在後續的跟地方政府的溝通上確實遇到困難你這樣不贊成乾脆就攤開來講給家長聽例如說以前的食材我們補助這麼多人力的部分我們補助這麼多那未來地方政府要不要把這些事情帶回去地方政府做還是他們又繼續丟包給你們"},{"start":19941.963,"end":19968.18,"text":"其實這個我們都希望不要發生這個狀況啦就是說能夠維持現在有的這個但是現實上是不可能的因為才會把上路之後好 我們一個一個來看所以我認為啦 攤開來問我們就來一題一題看我們從去年的10問到現在11問到底專法所適用的範圍因為我跟次長報告很多家長連他自己的小孩念的學校到底是歸中央管轄還是歸地方管轄"},{"start":19969.2,"end":19977.463,"text":"他都搞不清楚你知道嗎不要說高中啦有的家長連小學國中到底歸誰管他都不一定搞得清楚可是我不認為這是家長的問題因為家長有自己的書業有專攻嘛他不需要去搞清楚這個法規可是他只問他的孩子的營養午餐歸誰管我就光是這一題我們好好跟家長解釋對不對好來再來"},{"start":19988.787,"end":20008.652,"text":"適用的範圍在跨縣市一定會有互踢皮球的地方接下來才化法大家都把錢拿走了但是大家都不認領事情來做台北新北基隆北北基這是一個一日生活圈的概念大家如何分工還有跨部會之間的分工跟食材有關跟衛生有關跟教育工作有關那這些部會怎麼合作"},{"start":20009.172,"end":20026.843,"text":"所以而且這些部會跟地方上在溝通的管道又不一樣經驗也不一樣對不對這個是不是也適合來談一下中央跟地方的分工你看到目前兩題了對不對次長來第三題專法的規範有沒有涵蓋所有的公餐模式我的小孩住的我們住的那個"},{"start":20027.583,"end":20045.829,"text":"那一條路上可能五間學校就有五種公餐模式有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營、他校公營包含蘇院長上任之後提供的中央廚房模式變得更複雜了那未來才化法通過已經通過了啦那地方怎麼談這件事情那甚至我還有擔心的問題所以次長這題我們這邊也要跟家長講對不對好再來"},{"start":20051.98,"end":20077.793,"text":"未來我們在談草案或者是後續財政規劃的時候中央地方學校要不要設置所謂的委員會要不要有多元的聲音而如果相關權責跟經費都到了地方政府去他們願不願意在這個概念上採納多元的聲音這個議題我知道次長您是認同的之前您在擔任立法委員的時候您也非常認同但我們都不確定到了地方他們會不會乖乖把該找來的人找來開會聽多元的聲音我們並不知道好下一張"},{"start":20079.614,"end":20095.031,"text":"營養師除工人數的比例如何協助學校營養師聘組還有除工還有營養午餐如果是外定統餐學校的營養師跟團上的營養師如何分工也就是說每次出現食安事件的時候大家就會追究除工的問題還是營養師的問題到底是外定廠商的問題還是學校的問題一樣我認為"},{"start":20101.097,"end":20117.184,"text":"攤開來跟大家講清楚不是只有你的責任次長我覺得地方政府現在所有地方政府都要加緊腳步共同來承擔跟面對這個問題雖然我問的此時此刻我是在問教育部但我更要問的是所有地方政府準備把錢拿回去之後要不要面對這些問題好 接下來"},{"start":20118.985,"end":20137.637,"text":"學校五蜜目前都是兼任老師很辛苦已經很多地方老師哀鴻遍野了抓交替這個現象如何解決到了地方政府這些縣市首長會不會更加壓迫我們地方老師對不對 次長所以這個部分也要講出來武蔡秘書承擔了非常多大量的業務這些事情必須要拿出來講好 再來"},{"start":20138.858,"end":20155.795,"text":"還有偏鄉我更擔心的是偏鄉的營養午餐業務偏鄉人力難尋相關食材的送達還有老師身兼多職這件事情也會影響而且那個影響的層面更加複雜跟多元一樣偏鄉的縣市政府要不要跟您教育部坐下來好好溝通來下一張"},{"start":20156.716,"end":20174.401,"text":"如何確保學生的營養攝取跟健康基準之前蘇院長之所以會成立中央廚房就是發現很多偏鄉的小孩營養午餐看起來有夠淒慘有夠可憐相較於同一天的照片如果我們看台北市六都小孩感覺不是同一國的小孩所以我們成立了中央廚房未來這件事情怎麼辦還有食材採買會不會是問題"},{"start":20177.282,"end":20202.69,"text":"食材採買當然是問題有非常多細節在裡頭我們說細節魔鬼藏在細節裡面好下一張第九張如果食物中毒誰來處理誰來管第十張食農教育法國民營養及健康飲食促進法還有未來假設營養午餐法通過之後學校的營養教育如何進行當然我們有基本的概念是有教育部來訂定但是地方縣市政府要不要督促他們學校努力去辦第十一張我就問次長"},{"start":20204.4,"end":20231.732,"text":"您來自地方的立法委員很多人在選舉的時候 我不是說你啦我說很多縣市首長在選舉的時候就開支票說吃飯不用錢 吃菜不用錢 聯絡部不用錢小金座也不用錢 我在講婦孕期都不用錢的時候 營養午餐的品質會逐年下降甚至是逐日下降最近這兩天 日本就有一個新聞日本有非常多縣市都提供免費營養午餐結果家長愛哄騙也因為品質下降 小孩根本吃不飽結果拿出更多的錢去買零食"},{"start":20232.572,"end":20256.738,"text":"所以這個困境真的很大所以市長我建議啦如果都搞不定不要我們自己背鍋攤開來跟家長講到底是中央該承擔還是地方該承擔好 市長可不可以簡單回應一下謝謝委員的指教我們就朝這個方向好啦 我們就公開講給家長聽好不好 謝謝好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳佩玉委員質詢官員請回座市長以及官員都辛苦了 謝謝好"},{"start":20264.98,"end":20287.38,"text":"請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請王宏威委員質詢王宏威委員王宏威委員不在請邱志偉委員質詢邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在請鄭振前委員質詢鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在請徐宇珍委員質詢徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員不在"},{"start":20288.481,"end":20307.415,"text":"請徐欣盈委員質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在好那我想今天謝謝辛苦了登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有徐宇珍委員提出書面質詢那關於今天會議做如下決議報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":20308.456,"end":20308.496,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}