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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1192.814,"end":1193.02,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1264.65,"end":1265.435,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1300.906,"end":1302.055,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1478.567,"end":1480.174,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1551.232,"end":1553.137,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1593.029,"end":1618.945,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":1647.39,"end":1647.552,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1720.555,"end":1722.43,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1848.776,"end":1850.05,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1878.166,"end":1878.507,"text":"繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀"},{"start":1902.469,"end":1928.149,"text":"本日議程排定經濟部報告業務概況現在請郭志輝部長進行業務報告主席各位委員大家早這位應要到貴委員會提出業務報告深感榮幸"},{"start":1929.059,"end":1955.429,"text":"以下请就当前经济环境及本部施政的重点做扼要的说明进行各位委员不吝视教今年全球经济随通膨趋缓各国降息以刺激需求呈现温和成长的态势为美国新关税政策引发全球贸易摩擦加剧全球供应链重组"},{"start":1956.311,"end":1980.65,"text":"将提高全球经济的不确定性以S&P Global、IMF以及OECD等国际机构的最新预测今年全球经济成长介于2.7到3.3之间当前AI应用商机与所需软体硬体的产业能为推进全球经济成长的核心动力"},{"start":1981.516,"end":1987.638,"text":"國際數據資訊IDC指出AI為全球經濟產值的貢獻將由113年的1.2兆美元至119年成長3倍到4.9兆美元台灣受惠於AI應用與資通信產品需求的持續強勁且國內本土產業供應鏈完整並具有優勢"},{"start":2005.02,"end":2018.809,"text":"可望推升出口及民间投资的动能加上国内消费持续的畅望将带动今年经济稳健成长根据主计总数最新预测台湾今年经济成长可达3.14%"},{"start":2022.834,"end":2039.187,"text":"國際經濟環境變化快速為鞏固台灣產業競爭優勢強化供應鏈韌性本部將依總統揭示全球半導體民主供應鏈夥伴倡議推動AI晶片產業鏈全球聯盟與國際合作共創半導體產業新局面"},{"start":2041.791,"end":2064.757,"text":"並積極落實境外關內 境內關外協助企業擴大對外佈局提高國際競爭優勢對內則加強開拓亞林國家來台消費擴增內需動能此外 為利中小微企業也能夠因應快速轉型以及提升競爭力今年將投入116億元支持中小微企業數位淨零雙轉型"},{"start":2066.83,"end":2095.7,"text":"並透過ASCO協助企業降低成本達到深度節能同時持續強化能資源供應韌性滿足產業發展與民主所需台灣半導體產業長期為全球客戶提供晶圓代工以及封裝等專業服務7奈米以下先進製程佔超過六成世界第一先進封裝也持續領先全球為全球高科技發展不可或缺的關鍵角色"},{"start":2096.875,"end":2125.87,"text":"臺灣晶圓大廠海外佈局正式考量提升長期的競爭力以及回應國際客戶需求藉由貼近市場優先掌握商機並可運用當地高階技術人才讓臺灣半導體領先優勢再擴大為滿足全球快速成長的AI需求半導體產業在臺灣的研發以及投資也將持續加速最先進製程也優先在臺灣量產並加速與在地供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2127.028,"end":2147.331,"text":"本部會與產業保持溝通滿足投資需求同時深化與美日歐盟等民主國家合作強化供應鏈國際韌性確保台灣在全球半導體的關鍵地位AI為產業創新變革的核心驅動力台灣的AI實力在晶片與伺服器的製造技術全球第一"},{"start":2147.972,"end":2169.452,"text":"AI伺服器由九成由台湾厂生产本部预计四年培育20万名AI人才为目标每年培养2.5万国内人才也借由二加式人才培育计划每年招揽2.5万海外生解决国内人力不足问题未来也将借由机器人与生成式AI的相互整合提高生产力"},{"start":2170.333,"end":2198.719,"text":"目前本部已开办AI相关培训课程已培育超过6.2万国内AI人才另外今年2月本部已启动智慧创新大赏的竞赛希望激化年轻世代更多的创新应用军工产业处在国家防卫任性扮演关键角色也是驱动我国产业转型的主要推力"},{"start":2202.244,"end":2223.017,"text":"113年成立台湾卓越无人机海外商机联盟以整合国内119家业者成立制造国家队带领联盟成员打造无人机飞红供应链并带动扣件以及金属加工产业转型打入供应链预计无人机产值将有113年的50亿成长到117年的300亿"},{"start":2224.958,"end":2240.371,"text":"在无人船舶的部分由船舶中心投入自驾系统开发于114年1月获得爱迪生国际大奖目前已协助国内业者成功进入国际大厂供应链预计115年第一季可以正式量产"},{"start":2241.272,"end":2269.113,"text":"全球主要国家正在布局6G以及低轨卫星通信技术抢占市场为确保台湾网通产业在全球供应链占有一席之地本部积极投资6G雏形系统以及低轨卫星设备目前已成功加入欧盟支持的6G实验网计划我国自主6G雏形系统于今年2月底开始在西班牙建置及测试并持续与国际卫星大厂"},{"start":2269.753,"end":2291.676,"text":"恰商低轨卫星地面设备的研发合作机会以推进台湾次世代通信产业的发展为协助台湾优势产业及中小企业海外布局本部推动境外关内带领台商开拓全球版图并聚焦美国、日本、中东欧等重要信赖贸易伙伴领在中南亚国家中"},{"start":2293.939,"end":2321.286,"text":"则规划菲律宾设置产业园区同时深化与当地伙伴在关键领域的合作113年12月已经在捷克设立台湾贸易投资中心完成境外关内的第一个海外服务据点第二个据点将于今年4月与日本福冈设立提供一站式服务就近协助业者布局欧洲以及日本的市场拓展合作商机此外因应美国新关税政策"},{"start":2321.966,"end":2344.422,"text":"本部除以成立专案小组及时提供企业资源并结合境外官内策略规划在美国设立贸易投资中心协助企业评估投资环境以及媒合当地的合作伙伴同时为协助我国企业开拓海外市场以台湾Cellent为共同品牌扩大海外的通路也结合台湾Excelent"},{"start":2345.161,"end":2359.539,"text":"鎖定臺灣優質產業在海外17項國際專業展設置臺灣精品館推動優質產品目前已協助620家市的品牌上架海外實體及電商通路讓臺製"},{"start":2361.789,"end":2376.881,"text":"优质的产品行销全世界在境内关外的部分将加强邀请日本韩国菲律宾以及越南等邻近国家来台观展及采购及消费并结合半导体电脑等国际指标性大展提供"},{"start":2378.288,"end":2395.351,"text":"导购服务设置查缝补以及健检医美生活体验专区再搭配交通接驳导引国内商务人士导引国际商务人士再来消费每个人都希望健康长寿出现大健康市场的庞大"},{"start":2396.112,"end":2411.559,"text":"台灣運動及醫療器材產業在全球市場上可謂為隱形冠軍有利於我們從運動到醫療建構全面多元生態系打造台灣成為提供大健康服務的國度"},{"start":2412.523,"end":2430.609,"text":"由其结合AI技术,可以在Digital Twin虚拟环境进行实体训练,运用智慧医疗及健康管理,强化疾病的预防。本部将透过研发补助与租税优惠,推动运动及医材产业投入AI技术与创新科技的应用。"},{"start":2432.446,"end":2448.834,"text":"為協助企業落實減碳並降低成本本部去年啟動深度節能透過三階段推動產業導入EXCO由公營事業帶領再擴散到民營企業並擴大資金投入透過跨部會的服務去年完成輔導577家含公營事業128家帶動民間投資24億元促進節電48億度達成106%"},{"start":2459.139,"end":2486.536,"text":"相當全國用電的1.7%今年將節電的目標提升到55億度預計116年可累計節電206億度今年除繼續跨部會合作推動公民營企業節能改善節能家電太舊換新外將推動大型的ESCO專案透過由大型ESCO公司承攬中小企業施作的以大代小方式"},{"start":2487.436,"end":2506.801,"text":"擴大EXCO業者整合建立大型專案的商業模式目前已經與環境部金管會共同合作盤點包括台大醫院榮總三總台水公司等大型專案此外為擴大EXCO量能將引導保險業資金以100億元為目標投資EXCO產業後續也將研擬"},{"start":2512.202,"end":2535.254,"text":"授權資金投入ASCO的商業模式目前已經成立50億元ASCO信保制度協助取得銀行融資部分產業公司也建立ASCO節能專案保單提供保險支持令本部也研議將ASCO業者的獎勵機制透過公司協力加速落實深度節能"},{"start":2537.284,"end":2553.636,"text":"面對國際市場競爭日益激烈中小微企業在數位以及淨零轉型的雙重挑戰下需要政府更多元以及更有效的政策支持本部去年提出中小微企業多元振興方案的計畫以提供"},{"start":2555.137,"end":2582.034,"text":"諮詢以及輔導中小微企業6.5萬家協助創造57.7億元的產值今年加碼投入116億元預計諮詢及輔導升高到19.3萬家協助創造689億元的產值因應企業對AI應用及減少碳排的需要政府對於企業培訓員工的數位技能以及導入數位資訊工具都有提供"},{"start":2584.441,"end":2597.967,"text":"同时推出租税优惠措施鼓励中小企业继续投入创新研发增雇基层员工为员工加薪并将员工加薪纳入中小企业信保基金的审核机制"},{"start":2599.353,"end":2614.886,"text":"針對投入數位淨零轉型的30年以下中小微企業除了提供優惠貸款額外提供最高3500萬元的融資保證額度其能協助20萬家取得融資達到2400億元以減輕企業的財務負擔以及壓力促進國內薪資結構的良性轉型"},{"start":2621.491,"end":2645.62,"text":"截至今年3月12日申请贷款超过7000件融资金额达到244亿余元再生能源的充分供应是带动我国绿能产业躍升以及产业绿色转型的关键本部积极推动再生能源的设置除太阳光电以及离岸风力更积极推动地热"},{"start":2646.704,"end":2664.197,"text":"以提高能源來源的多元與自主性截至去年底地熱共設置7.49MW並於宜蘭取動鎖口4000公尺深層探測井今年將以20MW為目標目前已掌握關鍵暗場12.6MW預計開鑽涵蓋半地"},{"start":2670.408,"end":2697.064,"text":"熟的热的潜能的大屯山也将透过国际合作扩大深层地热专探由国营事业带领引进国外专警设备以及国际专业团队增加中油台电案场加速我国地热发展达到2030年设置容量1.2G的目标随着台商以及国外厂扩大对台投资并考量"},{"start":2697.944,"end":2718.013,"text":"半導體AI等新興技術的長期用電需求目前已規劃113年到122年大型機組裝置容量可近增加1786萬千瓦增量將超過所預估之用電成長需求可確保供電的穩定"},{"start":2719.653,"end":2738.462,"text":"另外解決區域間供電不平衡的問題除加速各地電力建設亦推動電網分散工程強化供電網路的韌性逐步降低電網集中風險在供水方面持續推動產業穩定供水以及前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":2739.582,"end":2765.327,"text":"截至113年底以增供每日237萬噸的水源相當於增加全國22%公共用水各地區均是供給大於需求未來持續採取開源節流調度以及備援等策略推動穩定供水預計117年可再增加供水量每日120萬噸"},{"start":2769.42,"end":2782.212,"text":"整體備援能力提升到60%全台民生以及產業發展用水均可保障此外為因應未來投資案的用水需求目前主要科技或者產業園區都有"},{"start":2784.397,"end":2811.394,"text":"多谷的水源以及多条的管线可互相备源重要的产业将优先媒合使用再生水同时赶办新竹与台南各10万吨海水淡化厂作为产业备源的水源本部已成立平台听取产业意见专案协助并全力满足产业用水的需求请产业安心的投资"},{"start":2812.898,"end":2814.701,"text":"國際趨勢瞬息萬變台灣擁有堅實的產業基礎與領先全球的技術"},{"start":2823.243,"end":2843.415,"text":"雖歷經各種國際的挑戰但在政府與民間的攜手協力下軍人化危機為轉機面對當前全球經貿秩序變化尤其是美國新關稅政策帶來的影響本部已陸續召開產業座談會為產業提供更完善的支持"},{"start":2844.275,"end":2869.108,"text":"也密切關注國際經貿情勢協助企業因應市場變化加速推動產業AI轉型並開拓國際市場讓臺灣的產業更具韌性與競爭力期盼各位委員對於本部施政指正視角本會期送請大院審議的相關議案亦懇請委員鼎力相助"},{"start":2870.455,"end":2895.473,"text":"最後敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝郭部長現在進行詢答委員詢答前原例做以下宣告每位委員詢答時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止登記發言現在請登記第一位林戴化委員詢答"},{"start":2900.663,"end":2901.628,"text":"好有请郭部长"},{"start":2912.077,"end":2931.213,"text":"副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計畫自在物提升"},{"start":2931.933,"end":2960.081,"text":"還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼"},{"start":2962.855,"end":2987.663,"text":"報告委員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司形態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過啊我們電業法現在本席有提案啦很多委員都有提案"},{"start":2988.303,"end":3010.776,"text":"那就是希望他維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為他發電輸電售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了在我們現在的再生人員發電"},{"start":3013.097,"end":3038.123,"text":"你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任售電也各自在這個平台當中自己去售電所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身"},{"start":3039.083,"end":3046.186,"text":"他是不是應該也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一直訊號的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣"},{"start":3063.773,"end":3074.517,"text":"那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點諮詢完後你也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定好第二個呢台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債那我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力好這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話"},{"start":3093.123,"end":3103.527,"text":"跟分割為三家的這個公司來經營控股之後有三家的這個營運這你要怎麼的對於 好啊又要漲電價如果你要補貼 那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割"},{"start":3120.373,"end":3127.118,"text":"就沒有那個意義 因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中 這個業 電業當中它負有那麼大的我們對電力的韌性之高度的要求 為什麼因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震"},{"start":3146.511,"end":3162.897,"text":"我想我們高雄是感受最深的 一個三坨颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾啊那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究我跟總公司叫不動的 我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啦 我出去就是成本欸 加班費欸"},{"start":3171.94,"end":3182.884,"text":"所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張本息是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題"},{"start":3188.046,"end":3193.088,"text":"好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損哈現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司情況之下經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億"},{"start":3216.676,"end":3240.595,"text":"所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不夠5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下是 報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意這個我們行政院所準備的1000億要補助這個台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分"},{"start":3243.993,"end":3269.586,"text":"是但是就如果加上今年的六千六百億四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損那怎麼辦呢是我們在內部會啟動這個這個全面改善的這個計劃所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠這個讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個"},{"start":3271.126,"end":3274.729,"text":"補助 撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境好 來 部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損"},{"start":3288.078,"end":3305.472,"text":"那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼"},{"start":3311.597,"end":3337.559,"text":"管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪啊總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水力卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入"},{"start":3338.2,"end":3359.311,"text":"八百零七億達到先進國家的百分之十的漏水率的標準那這八百零七億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司來報告謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這八百零七億裡面有八十億是由公務預算來預注台水空師其餘的部分由自來水空師來擠在"},{"start":3360.72,"end":3373.296,"text":"對 你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分是來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊"},{"start":3374.424,"end":3381.788,"text":"727億727億要繼續借款啦對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉債1167.99億喔部長他7我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的我從就是你們的公布的這個報章你說700多億所以1167.99億再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率"},{"start":3403.7,"end":3414.903,"text":"部長這個您要重視我們在向院裡面要求 院裡面再準備我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好或者700多億分兩年全部進行撥補啦"},{"start":3426.707,"end":3454.417,"text":"才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持還有他的知習借了1167再加上807億也好700多億也好他這要知習欸知習在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3454.997,"end":3473.699,"text":"那我講到這個真財 所謂國營事業跟產業界真財誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前5年的薪資我們看2024年去年的國營事業倒考率"},{"start":3474.46,"end":3503.439,"text":"近三年最低所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率"},{"start":3504.56,"end":3509.027,"text":"倒考率很低3年最低離職率這就設3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易留財更難"},{"start":3519.662,"end":3544.122,"text":"好 那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的"},{"start":3545.123,"end":3559.539,"text":"所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷"},{"start":3562.142,"end":3566.683,"text":"觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電中油中油有得到你們的補貼"},{"start":3588.669,"end":3611.979,"text":"台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超徵稅收超徵稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超徵表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電"},{"start":3612.699,"end":3617.101,"text":"多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊"},{"start":3634.548,"end":3654.315,"text":"但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊"},{"start":3655.455,"end":3675.168,"text":"我動掌他的電 我動掌他的水 去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹功不可沒 所以在這邊 這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分 希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊 部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看"},{"start":3677.86,"end":3684.724,"text":"這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個 依這個方向來努力好 部長我們一起加油謝謝 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答好 謝謝召委 請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":3704.482,"end":3722.872,"text":"好 部長 部長跟所有的經濟團隊辛苦了我先請教一下 其實在野黨在去年的1月25號的時候就講到要讓政府找不到人來當部長那部長你同意這樣的看法嗎要讓政府找不到人來當部長"},{"start":3728.905,"end":3755.203,"text":"不便回答不便回答啦我當然認為是不適合的啦因為部長是一個重要的職務啦每一個部長都是國家重要的公職那應該要讓所有優秀的人才更多人才願意進到公部門來擔任部長擔任次長擔任所有重要的公職這個國家才會更好所以我絕對不認同這樣看法不論哪一黨在執政我都不認同找不到人來當部長絕對這不是一個好事情但是我看到昨天已經國民黨已經在開記者會"},{"start":3759.686,"end":3781.102,"text":"部長你會受到影響嗎我擔任這個公職我想是有我的這個理念那目前為止沒有受到什麼影響我想這個每個人的看法都有他自己的這個角度有他的看法但是我在努力的做為這個國家"},{"start":3782.743,"end":3799.718,"text":"為我們經濟部的同仁大家一起努力希望能夠這個完成我們大家要努力的這個目標所以部長今天有很多可能有人會不斷的要你下台要你離開你不會受到影響這個為國家奉獻為國家付出這個心念不會受到影響"},{"start":3800.559,"end":3828.495,"text":"因為委員你已經在這邊支持我一起加油啦我認為不斷的更迭絕對不是好事情讓部長做不下去讓沒有人敢來當部長絕對不是好事啦這國家不會前進但是當然我也有提醒部長啦就是我會建議部長就多做少說啦其實你是企業家出身的企業家跟政務關係有一點不一樣企業家暢所欲言沒有關係不會有什麼但是部長沒講出來的一句話可能都會被高度檢視"},{"start":3829.375,"end":3851.808,"text":"甚至有些是實際上也許是這樣但是部長的角度其實並不適合這樣講所以裡面看到過去來招發部長已經講過電價不是越便宜越好當電價越便宜大家越浪費電包括川普只當一任影響有限包括美國對台灣晶片課徵百分之百關稅不一定不合理包括蒙古症等等這些"},{"start":3852.928,"end":3879.199,"text":"報告委員我想這裡面有很多都是這個作者的斷章取義啦大概我應該是要讓我整段都能夠這個報告清楚那我想大家就會知道我的原意是什麼但是就那幾個字來斷章取義我覺得這個是有一些偏頗啦我還是希望說事實"},{"start":3880.299,"end":3900.473,"text":"就是事實我在講的部分當然有很多的人他不會認同但是時間久了他一定認同我的看法部長我會建議的是這樣這個生態上面他很容易就是會摘取你從前的一段話所以我還是會建議部長在某些關鍵性的字句還是要謹慎小心"},{"start":3901.414,"end":3924.002,"text":"若是企業領袖其實是沒有關係但是這部長他不會整段給你的他會只抓你中間那一段敏感性的次序這個都會影響到整個政府的一些好不好請部長這是我認知不清所以我會改進好謝謝部長那再來我想請教的是其實電價的部分其實大家很敏感我們看到各國其實在俄烏戰爭之後都是在"},{"start":3925.183,"end":3944.742,"text":"這個補貼的方式 包括日本補貼的7000億 包括德國補貼的1兆 包括法國也補貼了7000億那其實我們也採取這樣的策略 希望穩定住物價啦 穩定住整個電價的部分那但是卻不斷的被攻擊啦 攻擊這個能源政策我想問的是 部長啦 接下來這個電價的部分會調動嗎"},{"start":3947.925,"end":3965.859,"text":"報告委員我想電價調動是電價審議委員的工作我們會盡量收集所有的訊息也會請參與電價審議委員的這些提供他們正確的訊息讓由他們來做判斷"},{"start":3967.26,"end":3983.294,"text":"這段時間其實已經撐很久了啦台電撐很久了就因為這個整個有原因故料上漲之後撐了很久那也本來是期望得到政府的支持而進來但是顯然並沒有得到那我個人的看法我覺得其實穩定住物價這件事情是相當重要因為一旦"},{"start":3984.134,"end":3999.887,"text":"漲上去就回不來了啦 漲上去回不來所以我個人會希望是 電價先不要漲你等到7月新民意出來新的民意會去展現出來之後新的民意去做出最後的決定再來考慮因為電價一旦調漲特別是這些民生跟基礎的一旦調上去"},{"start":4001.168,"end":4024.806,"text":"電價上去就回不來了很多的已經指出來了其實每條1%到6%的電價會調漲了多少的整個物價的波動這個一上去就回不來了對於整個民生對整個都會產生相當大的影響特別是現在地方上的物價蠢蠢欲動甚至有的已經動起來了那我希望在電價這一塊還撐得住的狀況下能不能等到了下一個階段再來做整體的這個思考"},{"start":4025.106,"end":4042.784,"text":"新的民意即將出來等新的民意做出最後的決定如果新的民意認為台電就是這個政府不該撥補台電就是應該漲電價那我們尊重這個新的民意決定但如果新的民意認為其實台電應該由政府給予撥補穩定住物價而台電不要漲電基本的這個民生電價那我們認為台電還有機會來做這個調整"},{"start":4047.228,"end":4072.237,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的指導我們會來參考提供給這個電價審議委員做判斷我希望這個部分納進去做一個參考好不好就是七八月新民意會有出現那新的民意出來之後我認為這個是一個我還是希望以國家為重因為一旦動了其實就回不來世界各國也並不是笨蛋嘛為什麼大家都採行用補貼的政策盡量減少"},{"start":4072.977,"end":4098.248,"text":"減少這個調漲但很多還是調了啦但是盡量減少調漲他就希望穩定那台灣的現在很多的整個經濟的狀況也是來自於我們很穩定的這個物價的這個策略那再來我再問一下現在的核能的部分有很多人提到啦那當然核能的安全核廢的處理跟民意其實這三個很關鍵的問題部長怎麼看未來的核能的部分的思考對於新的核能我們都可以參與討論那我們的我們的這個"},{"start":4103.062,"end":4122.287,"text":"條件就是說剛才委員所指教的這部分安全無力然後核廢料可以處理然後大家有共識特別是新的核能我們都歡迎討論新的技術出來大家當然但是他還是必須確立在核能的安全上面同時核廢料的處理必須大家是有共識的"},{"start":4122.907,"end":4151.534,"text":"那更重要的是社會上的共識要去產生非核家園還在法裡面這個還是確立的所以我認為這個部分都是要經過很多的一個溝通的過程所以我們希望整個整理思考那最後一個我再請教一下我們這個高雄的中油的總部現在雖然已經這個設計已經移到了高雄去了但是中油的總部實質難簽什麼時候會來完成我是不是請上位董事長跟你報告"},{"start":4152.847,"end":4157.42,"text":"報告委員就是中油公司在105年戶籍都已經搬到高雄"},{"start":4158.699,"end":4181.958,"text":"至於說實質南遷的部分目前是還沒有規劃不過我們再看一個進度就是我們在高雄煉油廠這邊新蓋的那個南部企業大樓那麼我們加速改辦預定在119年年中已經會完成那麼在這個時間點或許是一個可以相對考慮的一個事項"},{"start":4183.842,"end":4211.101,"text":"部長 董事長我也希望朝這個方向來推動當你的工廠第一線都是在高雄在南部的時候管理單位越趨近於你的工廠你的反倒是更好做管理另外一方面也跟大家同在那另外一方面是這些對於整個當地的部分都有相當大的一個幫助那既然這個時程已經抓出來了我希望未來實質南遷來展現出跟"},{"start":4211.781,"end":4228.059,"text":"第一線站在一起跟第一線管理也在第一線那台北這個新計畫區的位地段相當的好我相信他不管是出租或什麼都會有非常好的效益我認為這是一個對國家對中國最好的方向部長同意這樣的方向嗎是我們朝這個方向來努力好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請邱議員委員做詢答"},{"start":4254.398,"end":4270.122,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主席我請一下部長郭部長委員好部長好部長您上任到現在將近8個月對不對超過超過8個月了適應這個環境嗎"},{"start":4277.02,"end":4301.987,"text":"漸漸融入漸漸融入我覺得今天您的回答剛剛前面兩位執政黨委員問您的話題我覺得您感覺上非常非常的謹慎不太像過去的郭志輝先生部長我想我還是針對最近大家關心的議題總預算沒過其實對於"},{"start":4306.169,"end":4322.462,"text":"台灣整個環境來講其實影響非常大第一個水電這個就是大家要首先面臨到的問題台電的1000億撥補沒有在立法院通過那台電的累計虧損已經到4229億元了這個累計的虧損越來越多就您經營一個公司這麼久"},{"start":4331.826,"end":4345.224,"text":"如果這個虧損達到這樣這公司還能活得下去嗎他如果不做一些體質上或者是財務上的調整這樣的公司經營得下去嗎報告委員如果以我的經驗來講"},{"start":4347.379,"end":4366.672,"text":"從各個管理面我們來看這個問題是到底今天造成目前的負債是什麼樣的原因我要知道原因才能夠找到問題然後這個找到問題我才能夠對症下藥好嘛那你一定知道台電的原因是什麼嘛對不對就是"},{"start":4368.342,"end":4384.754,"text":"動漲造成所有的一切都是動漲 只漲工業用電只漲民生用電 只漲用電大戶 1000度以上的那所有的民生用電全部動漲的結果立法院也不給撥補 也不給漲價什麼都不要"},{"start":4389.434,"end":4413.707,"text":"那台電的虧損就會越來越多嘛是不是這樣那我要請教就是說未來我認為調整電價應該是勢在必行啦雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開會但是調整電價應該是勢在必行調整的幅度到什麼程度這個可能還要經過再更詳細的討論嘛部長您同意我的看法嗎完全同意好"},{"start":4414.287,"end":4426.537,"text":"如果您同意我的看法我覺得經濟部現在下一步要做的是應該要去研議你們要如何降低民生用電跟小商店因為電價調漲所帶來的負擔"},{"start":4431.755,"end":4457.492,"text":"你們要怎麼樣去做要怎麼樣去減輕他的負擔有一個東西叫做節電補助但是這個節電補助呢預算也被凍結了那預算凍結的理由是因為要叫你們考慮這個核電重啟所以要叫你們寫一個報告然後要到立法院來專案報告以後節能補助的費用才能恢復所以節能補助很快的他可能就會"},{"start":4458.666,"end":4478.456,"text":"沒有這些設備沒有這些錢可以用那民生住宅小商店的電價又要漲昨天曾文森董事長說啦如果台電用韓國的電價去收費的話我們到2024年其實是可以盈餘1539億你就微幅調漲你如果比照韓國的電價是作為微幅調漲其實是可以有盈餘的"},{"start":4486.052,"end":4507.577,"text":"部長 如果您看這個表 您會怎麼做這個是昨天曾文森講 他昨天已經講過了我現在要聽一下您的意見我沒有去看到這個命題我現在把這個PowerPoint放在您的眼前讓您看來 文森你要不要 曾董事長你要補充說明嗎請董事長補充說明"},{"start":4510.882,"end":4532.72,"text":"那個報告部長還有報告那個委員喔我是拿現在韓國的電價然後就是2024年韓國的電價然後套在我們的用電度數因為它也是民生電價和工業電價分開計算是我知道所以如果你依照這樣韓國的這個電價的幅度台灣會漲到這樣的幅度嗎會不會"},{"start":4538.513,"end":4562.264,"text":"我們應該是不用漲那麼高啦我們當然剛才委員所關心的這個CPI的部分我想我們這個是院長也有指示我們希望努力讓國人在物價的通膨上面不要超過2%那電價的調漲多少會影響的影響因素所以我們會想辦法"},{"start":4563.018,"end":4583.08,"text":"然後來這個努力然後來調整那調整當然是要這個電價委員會的同意不過我們會去細算用什麼樣最適化的不是最好但是最合適的這個方法來提出來然後來請這個委員指導這樣好 部長"},{"start":4584.693,"end":4608.199,"text":"如果說您剛剛講的這個電價調整的部分還有有待電價審議委員會去審議那這個是你們之前也是您之前說的要到菲律賓去種綠電那這個報告已經送到經濟委員會來了我大概看了一下幾頁的報告我看完以後我其實不太知道到底經濟部在說什麼"},{"start":4609.11,"end":4625.182,"text":"到底是可行還是不可行因為然後我看了幾大媒體的標題我看到晚上以後我就跟我的助理說那到底是可行還是不可行因為早上看的是不可行下午看的又說是可以然後到晚上看了我已經不知道他可不可以了"},{"start":4626.318,"end":4649.407,"text":"結果現在又有一個標說 郭志輝部長不放棄 韓可行 未來的成本會下降到底菲律賓重綠電這件事情 除了你們送過來的報告以外經濟部內部有沒有經過很妥適的討論 很深入的討論它到底可不可以 那你說未來的技術或者是價格"},{"start":4650.827,"end":4669.794,"text":"這個部分你的評估標準是什麼評估基準是什麼部長我讓您說明一下報告委員我想在這個地方謝謝你讓我有機會來說明那我們那一份是可行性分析也就是說去或者不去先做一個可行性分析我們認為這個報告顯示是可行的"},{"start":4672.495,"end":4686.54,"text":"第二個有一些限制的問題我們在評估我變成要到實地去考察實地去了解才能夠再做更深層的這個計算那麼剛才講說我就回答你這個5塊5的這個問題"},{"start":4689.241,"end":4710.918,"text":"我們的同仁他們拿的計算方法是現在日本從北海道送到本州的然後一個儲能櫃大概是2.5M的計算方式跟委員報告目前我們國內的廠商可以做到一個儲能櫃5M也就是兩倍"},{"start":4711.718,"end":4737.125,"text":"日本他們現在可以做到8M那麼我跟日本的這個廠商對接過以後他們跟我講他們可以做到10M也就是說5塊5這個價格當儲能櫃到10M的時候5塊5必須除以4所以他的這個送電回來的價格大概只有1.25那你的10M是現在就可以做還是未來三年可以做"},{"start":4738.26,"end":4746.117,"text":"你講日本說他可以做到10枚是現在可以做現在是8枚年底會到10枚今年年底就會到10枚"},{"start":4747.951,"end":4771.003,"text":"所以像這些東西我覺得在你們的所謂的可行性評估報告裡頭是沒有展現我想要再簡單再問一題這個大概是跟我的地方上的建設是很有關係的因為預算被動預算沒有過新興計畫沒有辦法做部長這個你應該要去了解所有的河川"},{"start":4772.669,"end":4795.586,"text":"水利署所做的這些河川輸菌的工作或者是水利的建置的工作 防淹水的工作因為預算沒過 很多的新興計畫是沒有辦法做的那這個我希望水利署趕快去把它整理出來你們現在所受的影響有哪些我現在講的是六龜老農溪的部分"},{"start":4796.266,"end":4815.688,"text":"全台灣類似這樣的一個新興的計畫 河川的治理計畫是非常多的我認為你們應該把這些整理出來 然後讓當地的委員很清楚了解這個對治水 對於防災會產生的重大影響"},{"start":4817.27,"end":4832.909,"text":"不要大家在那裡預算山爽的啊然後淹水又來罵政府啊所以我是不是能夠要求水利署你們把你們這些防災防洪的新興計畫受到影響的全部把它名列出來可以嗎"},{"start":4834.494,"end":4859.601,"text":"這個可以部長我想這個應該要讓民眾很清楚的知道亂山預算對於治災防洪會產生的影響對於我們這項新興計畫六龜老農溪過去88風災的時候受創嚴重還好這幾年有這樣的一個包括前瞻的治水包括各式各樣的治水的計畫"},{"start":4861.564,"end":4870.479,"text":"那如果預算被刪了以後未來怎麼辦所以我請你們要趕快把這些東西整理出來要讓民眾清楚了解好嗎我們馬上處理謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":4898.063,"end":4924.879,"text":"請保定國務長委員長保定 剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名"},{"start":4926.035,"end":4953.013,"text":"我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了"},{"start":4954.226,"end":4983.408,"text":"然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題你會企鴿來啊台電本來是個金雞母那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你你如果一些事情都處理不好"},{"start":4984.434,"end":4988.781,"text":"那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內"},{"start":5001.858,"end":5017.144,"text":"馬上再漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的"},{"start":5019.045,"end":5032.552,"text":"所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有正常觀所以您的指教我會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的"},{"start":5043.538,"end":5067.33,"text":"電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下"},{"start":5069.076,"end":5071.84,"text":"看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次"},{"start":5081.028,"end":5101.679,"text":"這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛 我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又長了一次就三年長了五次喔大家就記得郭志輝的任內"},{"start":5102.699,"end":5126.975,"text":"已經漲了兩次了好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的"},{"start":5128.493,"end":5151.832,"text":"停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣R1-30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲"},{"start":5153.39,"end":5180.948,"text":"你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的 R130 趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛 對不對台電也不要虧損嘛 人品也不要再不要再被你漲電價啊所以4月1號有太多方法可以做 好不好好好想一下 好不好那另外我提 我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價 我看"},{"start":5183.584,"end":5196.457,"text":"有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛 對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把啊回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢收回來了嗎"},{"start":5202.806,"end":5224.477,"text":"報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善"},{"start":5226.48,"end":5245.687,"text":"所以這個很具體嘛就是雲能這個就是400億在那嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在雲能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審議委員會"},{"start":5247.287,"end":5270.804,"text":"好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從"},{"start":5273.912,"end":5298.482,"text":"不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業"},{"start":5302.503,"end":5304.368,"text":"在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重"},{"start":5305.796,"end":5332.094,"text":"你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個地下你現在只要再把400億依法律契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟您再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個平空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對"},{"start":5333.115,"end":5347.984,"text":"你等於是放寬了嘛 它確實是延誤了嘛所以裁委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛那我們絕對是依法我們絕對是依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告"},{"start":5360.531,"end":5365.814,"text":"一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問你這件事情問兩次,第一,總是選問一次對,要回去查證書,然後會盡量...這個是虛無的事情"},{"start":5386.412,"end":5406.851,"text":"這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個"},{"start":5411.758,"end":5439.186,"text":"解釋一方面我們要走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人民接不接受這個接受我剛剛講的歷史定位跟人民怎麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的"},{"start":5439.986,"end":5455.606,"text":"这个反正所有的事实的进行一定是有科学的根据才能够提出来论述用假设性或者推论的我认为这样的话可能就失去我们理想讨论的这样一个范围什么叫事实什么叫科学有没有这份"},{"start":5457.077,"end":5474.398,"text":"這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有的就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊問題幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時 站不站得住位的同時你幫他解套完之後 失敗不見了你又來占我們的電價"},{"start":5475.523,"end":5499.741,"text":"不是這樣子這個事情我們要追求 這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛 對不對 保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣 對不對讓企業可以買到電 可以贏然後呢 台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價 我們真明明的贏 好不好我們來研究啦 我們一定是在法律的框架之下"},{"start":5500.521,"end":5517.601,"text":"我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天的討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方"},{"start":5518.422,"end":5546.344,"text":"至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三贏這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德文前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的那個三座"},{"start":5548.345,"end":5571.611,"text":"三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個"},{"start":5573.051,"end":5592.985,"text":"只要大院通過我們就是尊重大院的這個昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有更有更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電"},{"start":5594.566,"end":5614.153,"text":"核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去報告委員我們不會單於廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作"},{"start":5614.713,"end":5634.322,"text":"不能夠為單一廠商去解套這個是這個不符合目前看到的事實就是這樣啊完全沒有我們在法的在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套"},{"start":5634.622,"end":5640.045,"text":"部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到你去幫這家廠商400億沒進來你們已經重複這個兩次了謝謝大家好我們現在請我們鄭振前委員做詢問"},{"start":5662.197,"end":5664.04,"text":"謝主席我想請一下郭智慧郭部長"},{"start":5675.904,"end":5698.236,"text":"部長好,我發現昭緯其實對你特別友善因為我們今天的質詢時間少了兩分鐘所以可以感覺到我們昭緯對你是友善的一個狀態我想說大家都很關心台灣的能源政策感覺像電價上漲似乎已經在箭在弦上可是我覺得台灣對於整個用電用到哪裡去我們也非常非常的關心"},{"start":5699.716,"end":5714.846,"text":"可是我發現說我們在找一些資料的時候我想問一下部長這邊因為我們想要知道說台灣前30大的用電大戶的相關的資料這個部分可不可以提供"},{"start":5719.828,"end":5735.617,"text":"現於個資法的部分我們有困難個資法的部分不能夠提供用電大戶的名單是這樣子嗎 確定嗎連我們如果要質詢也都不能夠有這樣子的一個狀態嗎"},{"start":5739.089,"end":5754.479,"text":"對於這個產業競爭的部分他用的度數多少這個我們很難提供Ranking的部分我想沒有問題Ranking的部分沒有問題嘛前30大用電的部分沒有問題可是如果要知道說他們用電的種類數量"},{"start":5756.34,"end":5784.892,"text":"可能就會有一些問題對不對OK那我們之後我們辦公室會直接會跟能源署這邊要求資料因為按照能源管理法的時候我們應該要有對這事相關的一個掌握OK好那我們接下來因為為什麼會提到這個部分因為當大家都在關心台積電到美國去投資1000億這事情的時候很多人講到國安的問題或等等可是我從產業上面直接得到一些訊息的時候他們很多很直覺的反應跟我講說是因為台灣的電他們怕不夠"},{"start":5785.672,"end":5807.999,"text":"所以到國外去設廠那這當然都有很多不同的理由那我只想要請教一下部長這邊就是去年2024年的時候台積電的用電量佔台灣整體發電量的百分之多少大概是8%左右"},{"start":5810.38,"end":5828.21,"text":"8%嗎因為我看媒體有些是寫9%那我按照那個標準普爾他的一個國際報告的時候他認為說電力供應逐漸成為台積電的信用風險那他提到的數字是在2023年的時候大概是8.4%啦那預計到2030年的時候"},{"start":5833.993,"end":5853.93,"text":"就是會占到台灣總體發電量的15.6%比重不斷的升高所以這也是為什麼其實我在第一線的時候我很多台積電裡面的人他們第一個直接反應就是說因為電量不夠所以他們要到國外去投資那我這邊我也想請教因為我這邊也有一些不同的訊息"},{"start":5855.271,"end":5881.117,"text":"就是他提到一個點就是說台積電現在每天到夏季的時候下午用電尖峰的時候如果台電的備載容量有點不夠的時候呢台積電馬上就會被要求降載然後台積電的馬來西亞你再回應一下然後他們就直接講說台積電他們自己的一個柴油發電機幾乎天天是火力全開長達半年的時間有沒有這樣的一個狀態"},{"start":5882.691,"end":5902.672,"text":"報告委員,你是新竹市的委員,你應該非常清楚台積電的訊息,台積電半島立場是不能夠降載的。所以這個就是我要特別提的問題,是因為地方一直在傳這件事情。我覺得可能是有人提供錯誤的訊息給你。"},{"start":5904.033,"end":5933.217,"text":"理解所以說我這邊我要特別提到就是說我們這邊對於電的部分是怎麼樣子我覺得我們這邊很關切所以從你上來的時候我們就不斷在講到怎麼樣在優化台灣綠電的一個產出所以當我們之前特別問到一個台澎電纜的部分因為它現在有200MHz的一個電纜線可是它實際能夠用的部分非常非常的低只有80MHz那我們在想這個部分有沒有辦法把它提高"},{"start":5935.078,"end":5954.893,"text":"報導委員我們現在當然有一個新的計畫我們大概澎湖有一些地區他們可以設置太陽能光電也可以設置陸域的風電那這個全部是綠電我們可以利用現有的海纜把它送回來"},{"start":5955.734,"end":5975.083,"text":"那這個大概會有將近100多MW這個對我們來講啊因為這個澎湖來到就是新竹其實也蠻近的所以我想這是一個我們在啟動這個新的這個計畫的一部分那當然現在我們還在抱怨許可啦那我相信我們對這個綠電的這個增設是不遺餘力的因為"},{"start":5980.465,"end":6000.991,"text":"我們增設綠電的這個部分主要還是要滿足台灣半導體業它的需求那針對這個部分的時候我想另外再衍生一個問題其實就是之前很多委員也都很關心就是呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫那因為之前是拜登的一個計畫現在川普上來之後這個計畫還繼續執行嗎"},{"start":6004.674,"end":6005.936,"text":"報告委員這個計畫因為美國政府的改變那這個計畫我們必須要得到"},{"start":6014.943,"end":6039.779,"text":"AIT然後這個菲律賓的這個美國駐菲律賓他們的這些關鍵人物的這個支持所以我們不是在旅送經濟走廊上面的份子我們只是想要參與那因為我知道去年什麼國發會主委其實也都直接表示台灣需要參與在旅送經濟走廊這個計畫當中很具體的表示出來"},{"start":6040.339,"end":6062.934,"text":"那你這邊也某一個部分參與那我想知道一個狀態是這個計畫 影不影響到我們在呂宋重電它可不可以分開來獨立處理基本上這是兩個不同的計畫我們希望讓台灣的廠商可以到菲律賓去重電主要是我們希望光電業者因為台灣這個市場太小了"},{"start":6063.274,"end":6078.733,"text":"OK他必須要走到世界但是最近的世界就是在菲律賓跟日本所以我們是協助他們能夠讓他在台灣製造特別是這個台灣製造的光電是飛鴻供應鏈裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":6079.613,"end":6096.681,"text":"所以我想在這個民主同盟的這個光電的需求台灣的業者可以扮演非常強大的這個貢獻所以我們幫助他能夠到菲律賓去種電所以我們會去幫他談到一些可以當地快速落地快速賺錢的這個方法"},{"start":6097.902,"end":6117.935,"text":"OK 兩個部分所以呂宋經濟走廊這個部分不影響到你提的一個呂宋重電的這個計畫對不對那呂宋重電計畫我上一次在質詢的時候我也曾經問過你一個狀態是在呂宋這邊發電的狀態它的碳權有沒有辦法為台灣企業所使用你那時候提到說因為必須要有電纜"},{"start":6118.875,"end":6141.344,"text":"才能夠滿足R100的需求那因為現在還有R130的問題然後我看到你們提到報告當中提到一個運電船的這個問題我先不考慮它的成本我想先知道運電船假設運到台灣來因為你剛剛有提到說年底日本這邊有就是成本會降低到一度一塊多那這個狀態的時候用運電船運到台灣的電"},{"start":6144.785,"end":6160.062,"text":"碳泉能不能使用可以可以使用齁OK那這個部分因為那個船那個船本身也是綠電的電池的話是電動船就可以OK如果是燒油的那就變成灰電OK所以說如果是呃"},{"start":6163.055,"end":6175.943,"text":"運電船運到台灣來的電這探權還是可以由台灣的企業這邊來直接使用那這個部分之後有再更細的資料再給本席一下我這邊另外要問一下我們大阪市博會這邊的進度"},{"start":6178.089,"end":6199.7,"text":"有沒有落後報告委員沒有落後因為那個我看整個新聞出來說目前整個國外的一個國際場館只有完成不到20%剩下不到一個月要開展那我在想說關心台灣這邊因為我們花了20億在大阪市博會這邊那進度是不是能夠如期開張"},{"start":6201.477,"end":6223.453,"text":"我們現在是按照進度在進行了這部分詳細的話我是不請我們署長跟你報告因為時間的關係請事後再跟本辦公室做一個清楚的報告好不好那我最後想問一個因為你在那個你的口頭報告當中的時候有特別提到了一個軍工的一個產業在國家防衛任性扮演的角色當中你特別提到了一個"},{"start":6224.193,"end":6236.5,"text":"就是無人機的一個費用供應鏈就無人機國家隊的問題那我想問一下目前這個無人機國家隊他是用商規軍用還是直接變成軍規軍用"},{"start":6238.348,"end":6257.244,"text":"我們目前所啟動的是軍規商用所以目前是用了軍規商用的部分可是商用跟軍用是他就在一線之隔 只是用法上面的部分200公里為界限 200公里可以飛200公里以上的叫軍規軍用"},{"start":6259.706,"end":6279.884,"text":"軍規但是商用的是可以飛200公里以內的是叫軍規商用所以基本上目前你會把這個無人機這個部分放在軍工產業這邊就是因為它是軍規商用所以對台灣來講的時候如果說我們無人機要用變成軍規軍用其實也是很容易的對不對防禦上面沒有問題"},{"start":6280.524,"end":6304.252,"text":"OK 理解那針對無人艇的部分因為你在這邊的時候針對無人艇的部分目前我們還沒有完成一個國家隊的一個建立可是無人艇的部分在整個軍規軍用的部分某個部分也很近那針對這個部分我想說之後再給本辦公室一個清楚的一個資料好不好因為時間的關係是的好 謝謝"},{"start":6305.972,"end":6325.428,"text":"鄭委員我主席做一項宣告因為今天登記發言的委員非常多那為了在郭部長離開前讓所有委員都可以質詢到他所以我們就是減少發言的時間不是對郭部長特別好而是對本會以及所有委員好 謝謝好 現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長郭部長"},{"start":6343.711,"end":6365.668,"text":"部長好 據媒體披露我們台電準備要提出漲價方案而且預估這個方案是整體電價平均漲幅6%民生住宅以及小商店用電幅度會更高介於11%到33%"},{"start":6368.45,"end":6379.334,"text":"以目前家庭平均每月用電338度的非夏月電價來做比較估計每一個月的電費要增加100多塊"},{"start":6381.434,"end":6384.737,"text":"所以在这样的一个情况之下本席要请教"},{"start":6410.994,"end":6420.798,"text":"用電越多漲幅越大的原則部長你有沒有知道這個事情那我們經濟部的立場究竟是什麼我們仍舊經濟部也是建議調漲嗎請說明"},{"start":6425.046,"end":6451.411,"text":"報告委員我想你也非常清楚電價的調漲不是經濟部決定的電價的調漲是電價審議委員會他們多數的人好 所以部長你有聽聞這樣子的方案嗎這一個部分請教基本上都不是我們台電裡面討論的方向好 所以剛剛本席所說的媒體暴露是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":6452.071,"end":6478.261,"text":"媒體有很多他們會去所以你不知道這個訊息我不知道這個訊息好一個不知道訊息所以本席要請教經濟部的立場在目前台灣的面向你認為你仍舊在經濟部的立場還是以漲價為主嗎經濟部的立場就是綜合考量這個目前的經濟的動盪以及國人的需求"},{"start":6480.782,"end":6496.786,"text":"部長你這樣說就對了因為你是經濟部你一定會中和考量所以在你中和考量立即要到下個月四月份那你認為在目前中和考量的情況之下你現在還會認為漲價是好的方案嗎如果是台電今天是民營的企業的話"},{"start":6503.868,"end":6528.167,"text":"它勢必要漲價但是台電現在是國營的企業它必須要肩負國家照顧國人的這樣的一個任務所以這個任務我們非常的要重視所以剛才我想委員你所指教的部分也就是我們過去數年動漲的最重要的一個部分"},{"start":6528.968,"end":6553.608,"text":"那我們現在這樣就是說我們要請這個國家來補助台電然後因為過去動漲造成他的這個負債那這個負債已經舉債到92%了我們希望是這樣就是說如果能夠撥補給我們讓我們的這個舉債的空間有的話那對我們來講我想我們會做其他更好的努力啦"},{"start":6554.389,"end":6569.221,"text":"那我們現在就是有一點這個因為負債過大那剛才也有人講說你不要再增加舉債了啦舉債的話你這個利息更多等等所以我要跟委員報告您剛才所關心的部分也是我們關心的部分"},{"start":6570.356,"end":6595.016,"text":"但是我們沒有辦法在這個價格調整之前做出一個肯定的決定所以我們會把這些訊息包括委員所關心的這個內容都提供給電價審議委員會由他們斟酌讓他們去討論我相信在那些專家學者之間他們會討論出一個比較有智慧的這個決定好"},{"start":6597.437,"end":6602.34,"text":"剛剛部長我運用了一分多鐘的時間讓你說明我真的希望聽到政府的立場第一個你會提供民眾的聲音因為現在如果你一漲價通膨是非常的恐怖因為目前我們看到如果再漲尤其像媒體所披露的這個方案CPI可能會上升到2%甚至以上"},{"start":6625.07,"end":6632.377,"text":"這樣的一個情況市民大家有一個心聲長了就回不了頭尤其在現階段你身為經濟部部長你必須綜合台灣目前整個民生以及產業的樣態"},{"start":6639.983,"end":6663.276,"text":"那麼這點是非常重要 也請你將你剛剛善意的回應告訴電價委員會 務必在現階段如果連市民小電家 民生用電都如此的要高漲到更高的水準我想這是民眾沒有辦法接受的我們目的 政府要好好的讓民眾好生活 因為"},{"start":6663.996,"end":6689.252,"text":"在工業這個電價的部分呢最近這幾年也已經漲了數次在目前我們統計平均的單價已經高達4.29元所以本市還是要奉勸在先階段你要怎麼樣讓民生小店家能夠先安內先不要漲才不會導致通盆你願意這樣子的方向來建議給電價委員會嗎"},{"start":6692.194,"end":6710.948,"text":"謝謝委員的叮嚀我們一定會把你這些內容來向這個電價審議委員會報告不過我在這個地方向你說明一下我們基本上的原則對工業電價來講就是不能夠高於我們的競爭對手國"},{"start":6713.328,"end":6732.298,"text":"對所以你總是有一個防堵這個目的就是要真正照顧我們的產業嘛但是另外一項也就是我一直強調的本席民生跟小店家現在苦不堪言絕對不適合黨在這個階段我一定會提供給這個審議委員會"},{"start":6733.959,"end":6740.585,"text":"我相信你有這個能力因為我不希望你成為一個只有會漲價人家號稱你是漲價部長我不希望這個名稱因為卓榮泰卓榮泰說他是AI內閣我也不希望你是漲價部長卓榮泰不是AI內閣而成為漲價內閣"},{"start":6753.777,"end":6773.065,"text":"您剛才回答是你是經濟部長嗎我不是漲價部長你不是漲價部長所以你務必也不是水電部長對 也不是水電部長好 有gas所以我希望我們好好的來照顧民生這是一個非常重要的一個均衡的樣態接下來本席要請教"},{"start":6775.645,"end":6786.078,"text":"麥綠能那麼菲律賓的這個案子本席也聽到您說您會去實際上的一個這個考察什麼時候會去考察我們大概在這個"},{"start":6791.142,"end":6808.578,"text":"確定了以後會分批啦就是實際上面我個人什麼時候可以去可能就是我如果能夠請假出國的話那麼我就會去你非常想立即去是不是不是你一定有一個評估不要笑這個對台灣來講你一直漲價你解決不了台電的困境你的能源政策你要怎麼樣去調整這非常的重要"},{"start":6816.405,"end":6827.47,"text":"是 我們的專業的部分包括我們的能源局包括我們的公研院包括我們相關的這些專家他們會先走大約什麼時候應該是月底之前吧月底之前會出發那本席要請教因為本席在前半年一直跟你討論你也有回應但是你告訴我們的都是具可行性那具可行性也就是還在空想"},{"start":6843.656,"end":6851.161,"text":"還沒有實際行動但是我們剛剛看到你是具可行性但是你剛剛有說了你月底以前專家學者會出發是不是月底以前這是你現在告訴我們的因為在你書面答詢沒有這些資料所以我們要實際去討論接下來本席請問那到底你的工程費用"},{"start":6867.47,"end":6877.433,"text":"是多少 到底你要採用的運電的方式你要用什麼樣的方式你到底是原先說的海底電纜線還是這個電池的電池船的一個運輸那麼時程大概是什麼時候請說明報告委員 這個我們是不是可以另外給你報告"},{"start":6886.576,"end":6910.747,"text":"好 你給我報告 你有一個方案但是我還是要問你因為這個對我們國家來講是很重要的一個很重大的一個工程對 因為這個你們牽涉到有一些我不方便在這裡報告的問題所以本身要請教 那麼是不是台飛台飛也採用了什麼樣的方式來做合作我想這一點是非常的關鍵請說明 有沒有合作這個部分我們不方便在這裡不方便講沒關係 有沒有合作好 有沒有合作沒有"},{"start":6914.517,"end":6926.711,"text":"沒有合作好那我們也是希望也就是認真在推動是不是我們當然是積極的在推動好是一個積極在推動所以我們也希望"},{"start":6927.833,"end":6949.418,"text":"在整個能源的配比方式要怎麼做而不是就像本席剛才所說的這幾年民生也漲了幾次我不希望你成為一個漲價的部長那你剛才也說了你不是漲價部長最後一個議題本席要跟你討論的也就是我們這個大阪的這個"},{"start":6952.924,"end":6977.234,"text":"市博那當時我們在2022年的時候我回想我們一直在討論這20億我們要怎麼花那我們有一個條件因為以往在上海市博是沒有我們政府出資是台商自己募款那現在我們當然支持台灣的產業能夠在世界來展露所以因此最後我們"},{"start":6977.975,"end":6982.768,"text":"協商的結果也就是20億一毛不刪希望大家努力去做對不對"},{"start":6984.488,"end":6998.997,"text":"是不是 報告委員 這個是我們努力跟日本友好的關係我們本來我們在這個展覽 世博的展 我們不是會員所以我們是根本就不會受到邀請去參與 這個有主辦過部長 這個就是本席要跟你討論的 當時你承諾的是會多方的讓台灣來出現"},{"start":7009.384,"end":7037.25,"text":"甚至持續的透過管道判以這個希望以台灣管的面向來展出那現在我們是以teamwork的方式但是最近好像聽聞有媒體暴露也就是披露說日方認為台灣經濟部的官方網站在本月的6日發布的聲明內容是希望能夠更明確"},{"start":7039.81,"end":7046.832,"text":"去說明不是以政府的立場不是以台灣兩個字的名義來參展有沒有這回事請問有沒有這回事我們不是這個國際展覽局BIE的成員所以沒有辦法直接參展本席要請教日方有沒有最近6號有沒有這回事"},{"start":7061.956,"end":7088.895,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有收到 有沒有收到 請你告訴我我們接受日本的邀請 這個已經是非常大 人家非常給我們很大的所以我們21全力支持嘛 所以本席請教其中有變化的時候 是不是陳儒媒體所說經濟部有沒有接到這樣子的訊息 這樣子的這個不管是文也好 或者是我們的電子網 有沒有"},{"start":7091.877,"end":7107.723,"text":"有沒有請告訴本席你認為那個信度高嗎你不用問我認不認因為你是主席棄者你可以給社會大眾說到底有還是沒有我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個訊息你個人沒有經濟部有沒有"},{"start":7108.717,"end":7131.278,"text":"因為你是代表經濟部你不是個人那我剛才已經跟您報告就是我沒有收到你沒有收到好因為本席也不希望我們被污蔑這個就是我們在質詢當中能夠好好的去溝通說明清楚我們謝謝委員的這個垂詢其實我們到日本參展這件事情我們基本上是沒有"},{"start":7132.159,"end":7145.926,"text":"不是會員沒有資格去參展但是日本基於友好的這樣的一個關係邀請我們去參展所以這裡面當然有一些對我們有惡意的國家就會來挑撥離間會來見縫插針"},{"start":7149.568,"end":7165.218,"text":"所以我向委員這一部分你要了解我們同仁之間在穿梭這個案件的時候非常努力的千萬不要落入別人千萬不要落入這個輕痛愁快的這樣的一個境界"},{"start":7165.658,"end":7188.372,"text":"部長你現在說明的立場也就是全國國民的心聲我們也非常的希望政府部門可以說明清楚我們並沒有照你剛才說的我們經濟部並沒有收到這樣的訊息我們要讓國人安心因為20億大家全力的支持也就是希望讓台灣在世界能夠發光發熱是不是"},{"start":7190.478,"end":7203.015,"text":"我們去接受這個邀請去參展到別人家去做客我想我們有很多的事情必須要這按照主人的這個條件主人的這個規定來進行"},{"start":7205.458,"end":7234.64,"text":"不可能我们恣意乱行很多的人要求我们做一些我认为是没有这个太有意义的部分这个反而让我们自爱难行我想委员的这个好意应该也是这个部分所以让我们共同努力实际上让所有去看到在去参加这个展览的人都能够了解我们这个所谓的tech world这个馆是表现出"},{"start":7235.36,"end":7259.126,"text":"我們非常優異的部分對 所以在2022年部長你我本席再次強調也再次提醒 因為你在這裡有承諾也就是說我們既然不是在國家區我們好不容易也可以爭取到所以20億全力的支持也就是您所說的希望能夠透過各方的管道能夠讓台灣 台灣"},{"start":7261.987,"end":7288.179,"text":"臺灣的一個意向能夠在這當中來展露我想這是對於我們全國國民大家都非常的期待我也希望有任何不正確的訊息能夠透過經濟部也要嚴格去管控去說明清楚而不是隨波逐流我們的目的也就是希望讓我們的產業都能夠再次的強調是在世界看得到而且是跟世界接軌謝謝是 謝謝委員"},{"start":7290.72,"end":7307.55,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请陈廷飞委员做询答陈廷飞委员询答完休息五分钟谢谢赵伟后我们请部长郭部长"},{"start":7320.778,"end":7338.563,"text":"我們更期待的是把我們的特色跟精神要在世博的展場當中凸顯我想這個更重要所以我們在展場的佈置當中我們不能把我們自己的精神跟特色然後還有文化把它"},{"start":7339.656,"end":7359.945,"text":"放棄我覺得這個部分是很重要的其實我覺得名字雖然重要但是我們的價值我們的精神我們的文化跟我們的產業更為重要所以這個部分要拜託部長這也是我們希望透過各種管道能夠把台灣的量能"},{"start":7360.365,"end":7382.983,"text":"能夠展現出去那我們也知道現在我們遇到是一個派出兵不斷地用各種方式在打壓我們可是我們不能這樣就停止不前了我們更是要利用各種方式然後把台灣的特色 精神 文化 產業很直接地呈現出來那透過設計"},{"start":7385.117,"end":7398.465,"text":"我們的特色透過設計其實會展現不一樣的風貌所以這個部分再拜託部長是 報告委員我想世博是國際合作跟這個文化交流的重要平台"},{"start":7399.329,"end":7412.533,"text":"那我們用這個Tech World館除了向全球觀眾展示我國的科技創新實力也將豐富文化與生命活力爭取更多合作的機會謝謝委員剛才的這個勉勵所以厚色比什麼更重要"},{"start":7417.274,"end":7430.893,"text":"當我們有特色大家的目光焦點全部在我們身上的時候我們得到更多的交流機會這才是重要讓他用各種不同的方式看到我們台灣這個國家的軟實力"},{"start":7433.536,"end":7462.812,"text":"我相信這才是我們花了這20億很重要的關鍵所以我想我們必須體認我們遇到一個派出品可是我們不能停滯不前我們更應該往前走把台灣更不一樣的聲音與特色展現出來透過各種平台的交流所以再拜託部長我們希望給我們的紅人更多的鼓勵那場館的時間還有場館的特色我相信我們都要把它掌控住"},{"start":7463.392,"end":7471.058,"text":"再拜託部長部長在另外一個部分就是說我們一直圍繞在你身上的"},{"start":7471.997,"end":7496.762,"text":"尤其最近就是因為這個台積電赴美投資到底經濟部事前有沒有掌握光這個議題就連炒了好幾天部長我覺得你不可能沒有掌握啦我覺得從國安從經濟議題我們一定都要在每一個環節都掌握住可是可能有些時間點你"},{"start":7498.422,"end":7523.333,"text":"不應該也不能夠在第一時間做一個很清楚的看法跟對外的說明所以而被誤解了所以既然今天台積電赴美投資這已經很確定了我讓你一個時間你跟我們說一下到底你清不清楚這整個台積電的赴美投資案的狀況"},{"start":7524.329,"end":7551.616,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝你給我這樣的一個機會能夠在這個地方澄清這一件事情台積電到美國投資這件事情從總統開始以下經濟部我們其實都參與這樣的一個過程那每一個人負擔的這個內容會不一樣經濟部當然是知道台積電會去投資那我們把關的地方是在投審會"},{"start":7552.976,"end":7576.447,"text":"把關的地方在投審會那我想總統跟這個台積電的互動那麼總統我們包括我們的國安包括我們的整個行政院的長官都是一樣都參與這樣的一個討論但是分工分工那經濟部做什麼事情經濟部當然不是只有台積電投資這件事情包括美國的這些關稅啊各方面的新政府他們的措施會怎麼樣"},{"start":7577.327,"end":7604.566,"text":"所以經濟部只扮演一個搜尋這個資訊提供正確的這個資訊給陳鋒他們來做最後的判斷也給台積電做一個比較完整的這個參考這個大家對我的誤會說你都不知道我怎麼可能不知道我是說那一天我接受訪問的時候那個主持人問我說1000億你知不知道"},{"start":7605.964,"end":7616.722,"text":"跟委員報告這個是我很多不能說的部分所以我想大家可以諒解這種部分其實坦白講"},{"start":7618.462,"end":7634.119,"text":"我們去的時候沒有這個數字他大概跟我們應該說大概他要設多少個幾座的晶圓廠還有這個先進的封裝設施或是研發中心他有一個範圍的金額去"},{"start":7636.682,"end":7649.236,"text":"我說我這個人太老實了但如果問我說你這個知道嗎我真的那個數目金額不知道可是他要投資的規模是知道的非常清楚對所以我覺得說因為一句話所以部長以後"},{"start":7653.661,"end":7682.318,"text":"我們如果說 我要更精準的回答問題沒錯就是說很清楚說我們知道規模可是金額我們還是要尊重台積電自己的宣布嘛因為我們又不是台積電是 謝謝委員知道所以部長這個就是媒體這當中有時候就一句話就會被很多的不一樣的解讀我們就說怎麼可能會不知道而且我們所清楚的在這事前是很多不能講"},{"start":7683.618,"end":7699.349,"text":"從國安從經濟面那今天因為在這整個台積電的量能對於這個投資對我們台灣的基本面是沒有影響的因為他整個know-how跟研發的關鍵還是在台灣這才是重點"},{"start":7700.009,"end":7714.187,"text":"所以這當中包括我們的總統包括部長包括各單位都跟台積電非常掌控所有這個訊息所以我覺得這要說清楚否則會讓我們很多的民眾會有擔憂說"},{"start":7716.85,"end":7743.765,"text":"台積電這麼嚴重要去美國投資我們不知道不是不知道而是在每一個時間點我們該說的該做的有不一樣的分工而且當台積電畢竟它還是一間上市的公司它很多的一些必須宣布的還是要由它自己來宣布不能是我們政府來宣布所以這個部分還是要很清楚去做很多的一個"},{"start":7744.625,"end":7750.008,"text":"報告委員這個新聞如果不是台積電自己發布出來的我們都不予評論"},{"start":7771.471,"end":7786.09,"text":"這是跟台積電的問題嘛是台積電沒有發布的訊息我們怎麼去評論這個這可能是對很多想到消息或是不一樣的解讀就像一句話會被不一樣解讀所以"},{"start":7787.611,"end":7808.628,"text":"其實台積電我們在強調它是一個在台灣上市的公司然後在國際間是一個非常重要指標性的一個大廠所以它今天要做任何的所謂的擴展或是有任何的投資基本上是要由它自己來宣布"},{"start":7809.048,"end":7831.19,"text":"對沒有錯他一定會發重訊像這種事情他一定要發重訊所以他沒有這個確認的事情我想在坊間大家的傳聞經濟部的立場就是不予評論所以部長我們還是認為這個我們不予評論但是有一個重點是我們也要準備好就是說隨時如果萬一"},{"start":7832.051,"end":7853.702,"text":"他真的对外宣布了我们有没有准备好了我想那一天我问了相关单位基本上大家其实是准备好的我们都有非常多的simulation很多的基本假设如果这样子我们怎么做这样子做怎么做我想这么大的一个公司对国家影响这么大的一个作为"},{"start":7855.471,"end":7882.142,"text":"經濟部沒有基本假設沒有提早因應這個是不可能的所以我覺得這個我們應該講出來讓民眾知道我們政府會因應各種狀況的發生那我們前提就是不會影響到我們台灣的經濟也不會影響我們整個所謂的半導體或是我們相關產業的一個進步跟成長這個是很重要謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7884.226,"end":7885.707,"text":"好 謝謝 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7919.181,"end":7920.783,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7951.495,"end":7951.956,"text":"後來報仇"},{"start":7979.384,"end":7992.733,"text":"那我可以講 你們那你可以點頭來幫忙 幫忙一下幫忙一下 我們傳達給父母親 我們就幫忙他其實想講幾句他有說 中國文大靠幾十年了他有編成也有編成那我就要請他 請他申請長片 長片有編"},{"start":8025.84,"end":8026.761,"text":"我一定要死"},{"start":8051.713,"end":8059.979,"text":"就借一下手掌跟揍一下就揍了 等一下 祝祝 不好意思 不好意思"},{"start":8082.014,"end":8083.599,"text":"手留書 筆記 書籍謝謝 謝謝 請你早安"},{"start":8090.084,"end":8090.964,"text":"太酷了 太酷了"},{"start":8119.051,"end":8119.672,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8148.144,"end":8149.065,"text":"我怎麼厲害吧"},{"start":8174.889,"end":8178.21,"text":"要開始囉要開始囉先開回來啦"},{"start":8208.96,"end":8231.969,"text":"現在開始開會我們請鄭天才委員做詢答主席 郭委員 有請部長郭部長"},{"start":8238.903,"end":8261.638,"text":"部長好委員長這個嘴電雙掌這個是我們非常不希望的這個左院長特別說時機未定但是就這個部長啊"},{"start":8263.561,"end":8289.357,"text":"部長說水龍頭轉開就有水這是成本很高的事情當然這個水的部分有很多的因素以台灣來講本來不應該是切水的但是很多的因素所以怎麼樣去做一個合理的處理那電尤其是電尤其是電我們看這個電費"},{"start":8292.208,"end":8304.053,"text":"降價的這個歷史當然有漲有降但是如果我們看這幾年呢從2022年10月漲8.4%2023年4月漲11%然後2024年4月漲"},{"start":8320.739,"end":8349.341,"text":"2024年10月也漲漲的比例都很高所以下個月4月份審議委員會要開會了是不是是的所以這個部分很多的因素必須去思考部長去年剛上任的時候我是非常期待"},{"start":8351.257,"end":8376.344,"text":"因為你曾經也發表過有關核能的部分但是後來你這個比較不講了這個前幾天啊總統府氣候變遷委員會副召集人合授董事長童子仙昨天核電可以免省好幾千億元啊N千億元"},{"start":8381.744,"end":8410.581,"text":"他也特別提到2023年前台灣的用電2821.4億度如果用全部用太陽能發電的話太陽能發電的話需要10.5個台北市的土地為產生足夠的電河二河三的發電效率非常好成本非常低"},{"start":8412.695,"end":8437.173,"text":"根據台電去年公布的發電成本資料每一度電1.42元所以台電向民間購入的風力和太陽能的發電成本分別為6.59元4.87元差別很大所以部長你是經濟的專家"},{"start":8441.6,"end":8469.225,"text":"業界出來的這個成本應該要非常的清楚非常的清楚當然他還提到這個後面的這我就時間的關係就不再念了所以一開始其實我之前一開始你上任的時候我就講過在這邊講過所以你應該召集核電的專家台電來去做討論"},{"start":8471.226,"end":8494.996,"text":"仔細仔細的討論然後要就我們這8年多來甚至9年來在在這個力能的這方面投入了多少的經費然後包括台電要去買這些電又投入了多少經費這個這樣去算"},{"start":8497.574,"end":8521.829,"text":"如果你是你的話絕對不可能這樣如果這個事業給你做的話不可能這樣不可能像這樣的方式嗎這個部分所以這個部分這個請部長來繼續的來努力這個是我們所期待的就是不要再漲電不要再漲水也不要漲好接下來"},{"start":8525.759,"end":8553.045,"text":"這個談這個跟台電沒有關係了跟水利署有關係水利署這個本席有請這個經濟部上次我諮詢的時候有答覆了從111 111 112 113這幾年了在花蓮投入的相關的這個中央管河川及海岸"},{"start":8554.056,"end":8580.986,"text":"其實主要都是中央管合篡的所投入的經費這個代理部署長請問一下署長以110年然後這個2億在花蓮這個大概是三十分之一吧整個你們的總預算差不多三十分之一可能還更低投入的真的很少"},{"start":8583.447,"end":8608.114,"text":"而且整個都是修整修整件的部分只有一筆整件的部分只有一筆其他都是修都是修我上次也舉過這個例子花蓮大橋到葉美部落193線道一颱風就彈芳一颱風就下雨彈芳"},{"start":8610.874,"end":8638.255,"text":"其實很重要的因素就是花蓮溪的整治這個堤防對不對上次我也講過所以這個部分要投入要投入我再舉第二個例子北岡大橋它相關無事了但是因為你們把這個河川七一線劃得很大已經有堤防了"},{"start":8639.605,"end":8664.563,"text":"已經有提防了我的前輩楊榮福立委的時候好不容易提防提防提防蓋了就是要去解決我們土地的問題了我們沒有發生災害了我們是希望我們的土地不要一直變成河川其一的土地不要一直變成水利用地然後能夠把土地的產權能夠給我們還給我們就這樣而已"},{"start":8668.615,"end":8696.995,"text":"堤防也蓋了結果河川七一線越劃越大河川七一線劃到這個堤防的跟部落子之間這很奇怪大概前台灣可能是唯一的還是唯一的一例我不知道為什麼既然是要這樣繼續河川七一線要這樣堤防再蓋啊再拉長啊"},{"start":8698.871,"end":8726.983,"text":"提防在拉長這個部分請水利署仔細的去考量不是考量去做另外也讓部長知道有時候這個地方這個是台東成功鎮八翁部落多翁段的這海岸海岸"},{"start":8729.2,"end":8751.672,"text":"這個海岸被沖洗有房子有住家住家已經快被清洗了海岸還不做推來推去跟地方政府推來推去然後這個是私有土地當然是要保護私有土地"},{"start":8752.898,"end":8777.828,"text":"然後這個有零物質的土地 零液屬的土地國有土地也要保護啊 不要避免台灣變成越來越小啊所以海岸管理法14條規定得很清楚啊為防治海岸災害 預防海水倒灌國土流失 國土流失啊私有土地跟公有土地多是國土"},{"start":8778.871,"end":8804.998,"text":"保護民眾生命財產安全海岸地區有限公司者得失其嚴重性化作為一級或二級海岸防護區而且這個都是要由誰中央主管機關來去做所以這個部分請這個署長立即去處理好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝委員"},{"start":8807.21,"end":8834.151,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答那謝謝主席 我請經濟部的郭部長是不是能源署那個代理署長對 蔡代理署長"},{"start":8835.987,"end":8859.813,"text":"市長你好經濟部的書面報告跟口頭報告的資料我都看過了今天不提台積電因為大家都要提台積電昨天晚上睡不著夜觀天象東方群星燦爛一片明亮西方"},{"start":8862.32,"end":8886.932,"text":"這個星群暗淡我有一兩顆的星在閃爍所以我覺得台灣台積電還是永遠台積電富國神山永遠是富國神山天象可以看出這個台積電的未來走向從你的報告來說你的境外關內境外關內你在捷克"},{"start":8888.15,"end":8913.382,"text":"貿易投資中心設立了福岡馬上設立那你的境內境外關內在你的書面報告又跟這個大健康產業生態系結合我就混淆了捷克這個貿易投資中心你配置多少人力你預期要招多少商那福岡台灣貿易中心你要配置多少人力又怎麼樣跟大健康產業生態系結合"},{"start":8914.795,"end":8924.244,"text":"因為我有點confuse所以我請教您一下是 報告委員我想境外關聯的意思就是說在我們台灣之外的"},{"start":8925.457,"end":8930.681,"text":"我們現在是目前以我們國貿署的同仁住在住外外館的商業組的目前一位或者兩位一位兩位要變成一個台灣貿易投資中心"},{"start":8948.374,"end":8966.703,"text":"要做境外關內的政策能力會不會不足啊我們會請 未來在福岡福岡要成立台灣貿易中心也是一兩位貿易組的同仁經濟部派出的這個諸外同仁他們有這個能力做一條龍的服務嗎報告委員我們會local high"},{"start":8968.318,"end":8985.855,"text":"會邀請當地的人 有人脈關係的人來加入我們的這個陣容Local High是不是專業的 我們必須要考慮他有沒有專業能力好 我們一年時間來檢驗你的境外官內的政策執行的狀況是 是"},{"start":8987.657,"end":9008.773,"text":"然後這個到底創造多少產值 服務多少廠商另外你說要跟大健康產業生態系的結合用境外觀念 我就覺得奇怪怎麼突然講到大健康產業報告委員 我想大健康產業是這樣子總統曾經 總統在上任以後講說要健康台灣但是跟境外觀念有關係嗎"},{"start":9010.462,"end":9030.598,"text":"這境外觀內有關係嗎?境內觀外有關係嗎?境內觀外的部分我們希望提供一些比較優惠的地方那麼讓外國的人進來我們台灣你的報告是說境內觀外打造大健康產業生態系我真的有點迷惑"},{"start":9031.559,"end":9052.832,"text":"我有點看不懂是不是我的認知能力這個部分我是不是到委員辦公室去跟你做一個解說另外你要推動成立F16維修中心啊2016奉展計畫的時候我們在國安委員會是支持這個預算奉展計畫有幾架這個F16你知道嗎140架F16AB提升到F16V後續要採購66架的F16V你要設立一個F16維修中心"},{"start":9060.615,"end":9087.007,"text":"維修中心是你要結合漢翔結合其他的這個軍工產業對不對是到底能夠發揮什麼樣的縱效那是維修中心是所有F-16戰機不管是16V還是升級到AB是經過你們維修中心在做還是有軍方呢報告委員您的數字是我們國內的數字你還可以做國外F-16"},{"start":9088.341,"end":9113.274,"text":"也是 但這部分牽扯 抱歉我沒有辦法在這個地方做詳細的報告這是機密是吧對那我這個機密我就覺得如果用機密預算用機密會議可以請教一下我第一次聽到你這個想法好 那我請教在亞洲有F16的包 以色列也有啦還有哪些國家有他們願意讓我們來維修嗎"},{"start":9114.754,"end":9142.128,"text":"這個部分我相信這個在國安的系統所以我跟您確定我們的商源不僅是我們國內的L16一百四十架一架六十六架其他國家L16都有可能在我們台灣維修就是對我們民主同盟的國家都願意在我們這邊維修都會有可能難怪最近軍工股股大漲另外從你的報告裡面"},{"start":9143.602,"end":9145.015,"text":"五大信貸產業當然固然是重點"},{"start":9146.479,"end":9175.215,"text":"但是對傳統產業你要怎麼去提振轉型這個幾乎沒有任何篇幅在做任何的描述有我相信看過了真的沒有啦你對傳統產業扣建業怎麼輔導鋼鐵怎麼輔導石化怎麼輔導你應該有詳細的對策或者你要有一個白皮書怎麼樣對傳統產業讓他們能夠恢復競爭力降低成本種種真的你也有報告我書面報告我很詳細看因為我做高齡的時間很多"},{"start":9176.255,"end":9195.1,"text":"我從頭看到尾就是沒有傳統產業那你也知道中南部都是傳統產業他們也會看報告是不是在經濟部沒有重視傳統產業他很煩惱所以你要從經濟部的高度來做全面性的宣示說政府是高度重視傳統產業的轉型他們認為他們已經是棄嬰棄兒"},{"start":9201.598,"end":9227.312,"text":"氣質好像大家把所有資源都放在這個AI半導體他們有這種認知一旦認知變成他們的意識形態變成他們的想法的話那就我覺得是我們政府的問題所以這部分我希望說這部分能夠加強對傳統產業的協助跟發展那李君理理署長潛力長子的階段目前是這樣子對不對"},{"start":9229.801,"end":9238.825,"text":"那未來區塊開發的階段,你覺得這兩個階段目前問題在哪裡呢?現階段是他們需要協助的是資金的問題,因為俄烏戰爭之後,那麼他們的成本上漲那資金的問題就會形成...我問你,這兩年投資的金額有幾億?"},{"start":9254.768,"end":9279.109,"text":"大概總共加起來大概總共大概會將近一兆元的投資在那邊一兆元投資對是你確定這個數字是正確的是你看一下你的報告你現在離一兆元還很還非常大累計就是說完工以後107到114你們進場投資在894億對不對你要到一兆什麼時候到一兆啊"},{"start":9279.349,"end":9304.876,"text":"就是說我們目前合準的5.7GW通通完成我們是一個兆元的計畫預計我們大概在2026年的11月以前會全部都完成會到一兆的投資金額啊是是這個我是一個我們可以跟委員再報告一兆是你現在要增加10倍是"},{"start":9305.816,"end":9309.561,"text":"哇 如果你們達成我是覺得你們可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎"},{"start":9314.413,"end":9340.21,"text":"另外啊這個你們要在報告裡面寫說這台電增資不成撥補不成所造成的影響你們採取的是什麼造成什麼樣衝擊跟影響必須要來龍去龍要交代很清楚在你們報告裡面也要讓全民知道這撥補在藍白的這個決議之下撥補沒有通過預算沒有通過所以勢必要反映在合理的電價"},{"start":9341.431,"end":9342.915,"text":"所以是不是這次定價漲定了?"},{"start":9347.475,"end":9373.167,"text":"報告委員 電價的部分是由電價審議委員會透過專家學者你也是委員嘛 你是召集人嘛決定的這部分你也是召集人嘛我不是反正這個審議委員會一定是橫出他的財務狀況所以我覺得好像這個情境來看必須好像是非常不可那非常不可的原因為什麼會造成非常不可可以不漲的呢"},{"start":9374.827,"end":9389.436,"text":"那原因究竟在哪裡 我希望另外 那個進步要好好對外說明另外最後一個30秒的問題我很少被按兩次鈴30秒請吳明昌台談吳董事長董事長"},{"start":9397.185,"end":9408.994,"text":"這個您知道 您在台南現在台南有一個棒球村亞太棒球村高雄你也知道我已經爭取十年了十年不是不短的歲月人生有幾個十年"},{"start":9410.27,"end":9437.944,"text":"我要爭取這個北高雄棒球村我們也有很好的基礎 對不對你也有跟這個我們職棒球團接觸他們也有這個意願來用他們資金來開發你們提供處理來合作來撇去一個這個北高雄的棒球村就類似於台南亞太這是美式衣裝我聽到你的這個有這個想法過去的歷任董事長基本上都是相對比較消極"},{"start":9439.085,"end":9466.846,"text":"只有你比較積極那從你的積極的態度來看目前有沒有最新的進度我知道有一個球團很大的球團他要對這一塊他們要開發非常有興趣目前您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我們再積極的跟大家這樣介紹那這個棒球室是有四個棒球場同時進行是國際性的那那個我知道委員已經有爭取了十幾年那這個是非常不得了的事情"},{"start":9467.927,"end":9491.78,"text":"我們那個台糖一定全力配合把那個土地那剛好15公頃剛好可以做一個棒球村M7的那個特色國際性的OK我希望說一年之內有個具體的進度跟成果最後15秒我再發表一下我的想法這個台電的基層農人是非常辛苦"},{"start":9493.025,"end":9513.823,"text":"颱風天來 下雨天來 他們要去確保供電的穩定把停電的狀況迅速恢復 真的非常辛苦啊但是他們的辛苦卻得不到立法院的支持我作為經濟委員會成員 我的心情無比的沉重"},{"start":9515.473,"end":9544.121,"text":"為什麼我們沒有辦法支持但我必須要說明我們在經濟委員會在審查預算的時候是我當造委主審的這個一千億的撥補是有通過的我們是這個凍結三十億通過這台電的撥補預算但很遺憾莫名其妙在朝野協商的時候不曉得哪邊天外飛來一筆是一個完全沒有在經濟委員會出現的一個我不曉得他叫什麼名字是一個立法委員"},{"start":9545.683,"end":9574.785,"text":"提案 所有一千億檢列不只是藍白也有同樣提案所以我們在委會討論的這個昏天案例討論到這真的面紅耳赤做出了結論他一個提案就把他否決了藍一案白一案那我們對我們在場三位的這個這個執政黨的這個同仁是非常不公平的所以我覺得"},{"start":9582.369,"end":9603.527,"text":"所以我希望說這個國民黨同仁都很認真也用他們專業去審查這個經濟部跟國營事業預算但是問題出在這個朝野協商的時候不曉得他們黨團哪一個人啊是出於什麼動機 出於什麼理由一千億 全部把它否決掉"},{"start":9604.805,"end":9627.24,"text":"這可能 三位同仁啊雖然我們不同黨好 謝謝我們不同黨 但我們同心是為了台電為了國家能源的穩定啊時間已經超過了七分鐘了真的喔超過七分鐘 謝謝我以後會檢討一下是是謝謝我們沒有真的面貌是我們真的和諧的來討論我們的預算好 謝謝志偉委員 謝謝請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":9640.51,"end":9643.372,"text":"主席我想請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":9654.465,"end":9662.169,"text":"總統府去年6月成立了全社會防衛任性委員會首次實地演練已經規劃在3月27日在台南舉行"},{"start":9669.032,"end":9692.348,"text":"據我所知這一次經濟部也是受邀參加演習不曉得部長知不知道這件事情知道那這次經濟部負責的部分是哪一個部分呢應該是生活上面的部分類似大概你們參加的會是哪一些單位呢這個"},{"start":9698.242,"end":9706.332,"text":"市長跟你報告好不好好啊市長那你說大概是哪一些單位會參加呢這個您說的是"},{"start":9709.85,"end":9736.785,"text":"所以次長也不知道這個是應該是內政部辦的是內政部啊基本上是總統府的委員會辦的但是呢經濟部這一次也在被邀請的範圍之內那本席現在就是想了解說請問經濟部參加的大概是哪些單位哪些人員大概有多少人所以目前是次長部長"},{"start":9738.166,"end":9752.944,"text":"所有經濟部的所屬單位都不知道嗎不是跟委員報告這個因為現在目前的這個活動還在規劃當中啦3月27下個禮拜就要就要開始了你們都還不知道誰要參加"},{"start":9754.686,"end":9776.218,"text":"對我們第一個我們是配合單位第二個就是說這個因為是涉及到演習它是一個形同演習的所以我們可能不方便在這個地方提出那會等到這個已經確定了以後那由內政部會統一向還有國土辦會向這個我希望說你們可以盡快的理解一下到底是誰會參加是台電嗎是中油嗎"},{"start":9780.86,"end":9790.268,"text":"還是台塘也要參加還是水利署要參加這個總是要有一個方向吧如果假設是民生的話像部長講的是生活的話大概是哪些單位會參加我們也想要理解那去年經濟部就有說要增加這個天然氣的儲存量到14天但是目前據我所知這個安全存量才一個禮拜左右"},{"start":9806.522,"end":9831.534,"text":"那這是在沒有任何危機發生的情況之下那如果假設真的不幸有任何的危機發生的話天然氣馬上就無法使用了那目前經濟部有沒有做過推演我們的這個備援計畫台灣大概可以撐幾天呢報告委員我想您所指證的這些部分我想我們都有備援的計畫"},{"start":9832.745,"end":9860.856,"text":"那有一些備援計畫的內容不便在這裡跟各位說所以您不知道是我們現在可以備援幾天嗎我們都非常清楚所以是一個禮拜是準確嗎一個禮拜是準確嗎這應該是公開的我們比這個要多很多啦但是我們不能夠在這個地方公開的講我們可以到委員的辦公室跟你們報告所以是可以超過一個禮拜當然是可以超過一個禮拜太好了"},{"start":9861.576,"end":9891.019,"text":"部長接下來我想我也想要再關心一下這個有關於台積電台積電就是這個月初宣布說要到美國去擴大投資的消息那很多人都擔憂說我們台灣半導體產業外移那人才流失甚至會衝擊國家安全那但是您在廣播節目上表示說台積電的決定您事先是毫不知情那到底是知情還是不知情呢"},{"start":9891.679,"end":9916.406,"text":"報告委員我怎麼可能不知情前一天我想總統跟魏董事長在公開的記者會上面已經講得很清楚整個政府相關單位都在討論這件事情我當然是知情只是那一天主持人問我一千億這個金額你知不知道我不能夠講"},{"start":9918.512,"end":9924.885,"text":"所以我在講說這個一千億事實上一千億坦白講我不知道因為它是一個範圍"},{"start":9926.581,"end":9942.832,"text":"但是主持人問了一個非常具體的數字我沒有辦法因為我不知道是一千億還是八百億還是一千兩百億所以我當然一千億我不知道這個你知道回答這個問題但是有很多人斷章取義所有人不知道這件事怎麼會負責全國經濟大政的部長台積電這麼重大的決策我當然知道我當然知道"},{"start":9957.142,"end":9971.503,"text":"報告委員其實這個都是在歪樓啦對啊你想看看以你高度的智慧應該可以判斷這個事情是歪樓我個人來講我這麼重要的任務我怎麼可能不知道"},{"start":9971.823,"end":9978.028,"text":"就是斷章取義是100億你知不知道而延伸到這整個計畫是數字的問題所以我很擔心說這個經濟部變成文書處理單位因為畢竟經濟部尤其您就是經濟總舵手所以這一點也藉這個機會讓所有人都知道說這個是一個"},{"start":9995.28,"end":10004.006,"text":"我不是不知道有一些內容不能夠就其中的一個數字是那接下來本席也想要問有關於說卓院長有講過台積電赴美投資是用"},{"start":10011.391,"end":10015.834,"text":"N-1的這個規定 就是說我們的美國的製程必須落後台灣廠一個世代以上那目前N-1的明文規範僅是於對中國大陸的投資那對於其他的海外市場並沒有明確的這個強制規定說要求N-1那換而言之這個N-1的原則"},{"start":10034.488,"end":10044.137,"text":"到目前為止是一個口頭承諾並非是一個真正具有約束力的規範那部長請問您有沒有什麼想法說要來確保這個N-1的規定落實嗎"},{"start":10047.813,"end":10066.861,"text":"好 報告委員我想就科學的角度來看這個命題N-1它是自然而存在的所有的企業往海外走離開了台灣到世界任何一個地方我想它一定要想去那個地方賺錢所以它不可能把一個"},{"start":10068.154,"end":10092.167,"text":"不確定的事實或者不穩定的製程移過去所以它自然而然在台灣一個成熟穩定可以賺錢的這個製程那美國不會給壓力嗎他們不想要最先進的製程嗎是啊它是最先進的但是最先進這裡面各位知道我們所謂半導體的製程每一個階段大概有兩年"},{"start":10093.067,"end":10114.859,"text":"都是在那個階段你是兩年的頭還是兩年的尾都是在那個縱裡面所以我想這個區間上面表達得非常的清楚就是失去我們的國際優勢然後目前世界上有很多的國家都有類似的國家利益防衛條款那就是說政府立法要求"},{"start":10115.419,"end":10141.473,"text":"具有戰略意義的公司在推動這個技術轉移啊資產重組啊甚至有涉及這個國家安全的行動時必須獲得國家政府的這個批准那以確保我們的核心技術不外流那這個就有包括說美國的這個ECRA我講我們的機關不以核准的大概有以下六項第一"},{"start":10142.634,"end":10168.102,"text":"影響國家安全您剛剛所說的第二對國家經濟發展有不利影響的第三違反國際條約或協定之義務第四侵害智慧財產權第五違反勞動基準法引發重大勞資糾紛尚未解決的第四破壞國家形象所以以上六項的這一個過程之後到達我們投審會一律拒絕"},{"start":10169.062,"end":10172.784,"text":"是所以我也希望說部長也要做一個把關的這個動作因為另外我們擔心的是台積電的董事會的結構它其實是日益國際化有很多其他的包括具有這個美國政府背景的這個董事那請問部長假設我做一個問題這是一個假設性的問題如果未來董事會的決策"},{"start":10193.194,"end":10217.044,"text":"出現台灣跟美國利益有衝突的時候我們政府有沒有什麼機制可以確保台灣的利益不受損呢我想委員您這個假設問題比較大一點是不是可以具體一下哪一個地方違反什麼樣的利益就是說假設在董事會上面我們董事會決定說把先進更先進的製程違反這個N-1的話"},{"start":10221.046,"end":10244.136,"text":"你會這樣怎麼辦呢請你隨身回答董事會必須要替公司提出可以賺錢盈利獲利的這樣的一個責任但我們現在是在討論包括國家安全是不是這個是不可能的一個事實任何一個董事他必須要為這個公司賺錢如果假設這個公司只是賺錢然後影響到了這個國家安全因為現在有好幾位"},{"start":10250.839,"end":10276.751,"text":"這個美國人也加入了這個董事會所以呢我現在就是要提醒你提醒你提醒你務必做好準備確保台灣的經濟與技術的主導權不會受損害我們主管機關我剛才已經跟您報告了那個六項它只要影響國家的安全或者影響國家的經濟跟不利的影響這個我們不會允許好 加油謝謝"},{"start":10282.953,"end":10293.226,"text":"請謝一鋒召委諮詢謝謝主席 我想請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":10302.366,"end":10323.235,"text":"我想要請問一下川普總統3月17號的時候他在社交媒體說他說要用beautiful and clean的煤來發電就是美麗又潔淨的那所以市場都預期未來美國的煤會增產"},{"start":10326.601,"end":10350.72,"text":"我們也聽到了AIT的古麗妍處長說美國他們可以滿足台灣能源的需求無論是液化天然氣再生能源或核能那前三項就是古麗妍說的這三項都是比較符合目前我們台灣的能源未來的規劃"},{"start":10352.642,"end":10376.219,"text":"川普總統說的這個捷徑的煤那如果未來他會不會有可能要求我們增加採購報告委員這個我可不可以請台電董事長跟你回應那個報告委員那個我們的燃煤機組目前就是只有五部超超臨界燃煤機組"},{"start":10377.239,"end":10402.188,"text":"所以我們以目前來看台電的機組的配置燃煤量是一定有一個上限的而且根據大院的決議在審台電的預算的時候其實我的燃煤採購量也在逐年下降當中所以即便是川普總統要求我們目前都沒有辦法增加對煤的採購量對不對"},{"start":10406.395,"end":10416.808,"text":"這個短期內應該有困難我想請這個董事長再繼續報告委員我們現在在進行的整個減碳的基礎更新規劃"},{"start":10419.067,"end":10446.368,"text":"興達的機組已經陸陸續續要除役台中的機組我們現在接下來二期開始啟動以後也會陸續的只要機組上來它就會開始燃煤量都會開始逐步下降那至於我們現在就是新增就是最近幾年投資的新的機組超超臨界的燃煤機組雖然它的排放量很低可是目前來看我們沒有新的燃煤機組的規劃"},{"start":10448.499,"end":10461.193,"text":"所以我們整體的購煤的上限是會受到我們機組運轉數的影響要大幅增加的可能性是很小很小的那如果他要求呢"},{"start":10465.202,"end":10481.766,"text":"我認為這些事情我們必須要跟他理性的討論理性的討論我想就這個事實來跟他們請教所以我想要增加有困難我想美國應該會有考慮我們的這個建議"},{"start":10485.849,"end":10512.163,"text":"因為你知道嘛4月2號所有國家的關稅號碼都要公佈嘛那這個時候是磋商的這個關鍵的期間啊那會不會在減少這個貿易逆差的時候那美國會要求我們就是加大除了就是說過去我們看到的核能天然氣還有再生能源等等那會不會多增加要求沒呢"},{"start":10514.547,"end":10519.358,"text":"這樣子的一個變數關係我們會列入考慮我們這個會提供給這個談判單位作為參考好"},{"start":10524.571,"end":10547.757,"text":"那還有我們知道其實除了剛才諸位委員所說的希望部長要了解到說民眾不希望漲電價即便是產業漲電價都有可能轉嫁到民生的用品上面那所以物價的上漲等等的因素"},{"start":10548.097,"end":10562.754,"text":"非常的重要除了剛才部長所重視的就是我們國家的電價比其他我們在製造業上面競爭國家的電價如果有就是說我們不比"},{"start":10563.134,"end":10577.935,"text":"就是不能夠超過他們以外我們必須要考慮到就是漲電量會對於民生所造成的影響所以你要把我們本院委員所有的意見充分的轉達給電價審議委員會可以嗎"},{"start":10579.938,"end":10605.615,"text":"市的委員這個部分我們一定會如實的提供給電價審議委員會參考好還有喔在你最新的報告裡面你也提到了在菲律賓種電然後不管是用就是電池船或者是電纜短期內啦當然電纜是不可行因為電纜沒有建置嘛那"},{"start":10606.175,"end":10623.933,"text":"我長期就是說用電動船就電池船來運送這個電力都是有難度的那甚至就是有可能是不會完成的那你又在去年的10月31號表示"},{"start":10626.215,"end":10645.261,"text":"如果在美國跟日本協助下參與禮送的經濟走廊這個計畫那是希望落實你境外關內的政策把低階的封裝高耗能的石化鋼鐵業移到菲律賓去"},{"start":10646.081,"end":10667.396,"text":"那你就說了重電的可行性很難那是不是代表你想要推動的就是把低階的封裝高耗能的石化以及鋼鐵業移到菲律賓那這樣子的情況對於我們國家的勞工的就業衝擊以及經濟影響的"},{"start":10671.939,"end":10698.024,"text":"成长的影响那你有什么样的评估报告委员我想参与这个旅送经济走廊这个命题应该是他们美国日本跟菲律宾之间的决议那我们能不能够参与我想这个变数还蛮大的那我们只是说我们在这个过程里面我们必须要考虑我们台湾的整体的发展"},{"start":10698.644,"end":10725.912,"text":"那因為台灣要擴增各方面的這個發展的時候我們當然提出一個建議去做說如果今天我們讓台灣的綠電業者可以到海外去增加他的市場這個台灣因為我想我們的地方有限然後我們能夠發展綠電的這個空間也有限所以我們到這個菲律賓去發展因為菲律賓的這個土地非常的大那我們在評估所以會寫出一個評估計畫書"},{"start":10728.433,"end":10743.208,"text":"那這個評估計畫書看起來在那個地方創綠電是可行的因為綠電應該都在兩三塊錢那我講過了就是說我買電跟我鼓勵國內的廠商去那邊創電這個是不同的這個計畫"},{"start":10746.471,"end":10767.548,"text":"如果今天我們的國內的業者發展這個綠電的業者他在海外有能夠擴張他的這個市場的時候他就可以提供綠電他在菲律賓提供他的綠電給我們在那個地方如果我們能夠做大型的這個工業區也就是我在提倡的境外關內的這個工業區那麼這個是一個這個這個"},{"start":10771.651,"end":10789.794,"text":"非常讓大家可以移動的生產移動的這個部分那這個部分裡面他可以得到最重要就是他需要有電有水那麼這個水電我們都可以幫助他獲得更高經濟效益更低成本的水跟電"},{"start":10790.745,"end":10819.593,"text":"那么这样子的话他会比这个他在中国大陆也好或者他在台湾或者在日本的这个厂商他可以移动到这个菲律宾去做基本上菲律宾的人力他们发展的非常的好菲律宾就我们在看吕宋岛光是一个吕宋岛大概台湾比台湾大概三倍大那大概有六千万的人口所以这一部分他们要进到这个工业区服务相对于"},{"start":10820.333,"end":10846.903,"text":"相對於台灣的廠商來講是一個選擇的部分那當台灣的廠商要往世界各地去發展的時候我們可以提供一個讓他離家鄉最近的一個地區但是我剛才在講過最重要的還是水跟電各位都很清楚一直在指責菲律賓的電七塊八塊這麼高的價格我怎麼可能送回來對不起我是先創一塊或者兩塊錢的電"},{"start":10848.884,"end":10877.471,"text":"讓他們先供給菲律賓的這些我們的台商或者是日商或者是從中國大陸要移轉出來的這些台商讓他們先得到基礎建設的這些輔助讓他更具有競爭力這個才是我們最大的目的第二個他如果剩下的發出來的電有剩下的話我們可以用兩種方式把它送回來一種透過電子船送回來"},{"start":10878.351,"end":10900.431,"text":"第二個通過海嵐送回來 海嵐這個2011年就在世界討論的一個海事工程我們也看到了非常多歐洲的國家是透過海嵐在送電我們也看到最新的計畫 從新加坡他願意從澳洲拉4800公里拉到新加坡也是透過海嵐"},{"start":10901.59,"end":10925.952,"text":"我們認為我們也透過很多的智庫分析也透過很多的這個單位來做這些評估評估報告都有所以我們呢做了這一份可行性分析認為它是可行的接著我們要做實地的驗證實地的驗證這是科學的方法實地的驗證在確認它是可行的以後我們才會建議國內的"},{"start":10928.367,"end":10941.274,"text":"綠電業者往那邊移動但是我們會跟這個當地政府來討論怎麼樣給我們一些好的這個優惠的這個措施所以對經濟部來講這麼大的一個計畫不是"},{"start":10947.018,"end":10967.75,"text":"這麼輕易就做決定我們都有做非常多的simulation只是有一些部分跟委員報告牽扯到國安的部分是我們在這裡不能夠詳細的報告不要什麼事情最後都扯到國安我覺得說我們還是應該因為我們現在非常多的"},{"start":10968.873,"end":10989.419,"text":"這個所謂的假訊息好非常多的認知作戰所以這一點請委員能夠諒解好我們確實沒有辦法拒信免疑但是我們願意到你的辦公室去拒信免疑的報告好好謝謝那也請你馬上就是能夠回去的時候轉達電業審議委員會把就是我們電價審議委員會把所有我們本院委員對於電價不應該調漲這個問題"},{"start":10998.882,"end":11019.04,"text":"應該要如實的來陳述 好不好是的 我們會如實的陳述好 我們現在請呂一林委員做詢答"},{"start":11029.451,"end":11030.635,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請郭部長"},{"start":11039.301,"end":11064.946,"text":"委員好 部長美國的川普總統他在競選的時候他就已經主張要加重這個關稅來消除美國對各個國家的貿易的這個逆差他在上任之後的話他也馬上兌現了他的政見加徵了出口到美國的鋼鋁製品關稅到25%他也預告了4月份要來實施對等的關稅"},{"start":11066.286,"end":11069.17,"text":"增加這個關稅這個動作本席是非常的擔心那我們看到我們台灣2024年對美國出口將近1163億美元那美國進口到我們台灣的是424億美元那我們國家是在"},{"start":11084.85,"end":11113.667,"text":"这个美国第六大的这个贸易这个逆差的国家那我们出口到美国的大部分也都是这个机械的用具跟电子的零件那经济部应该对我们国内的相关的产业对这个被征收关税的问题你有没有相对应的这个应对的方式是报告委员我们都有各种不同的这个情境的模拟然后提出因应的对策那刚才你所这个垂询的这部分呢"},{"start":11114.187,"end":11136.887,"text":"大概740億左右的這個出鈔呢大部分其中有七成是屬於伺服器是屬於伺服器的部分那我們會針對我們出鈔的部分然後來訪談所有的這個業者那我們跟業者共同討論如何來因應這樣子如果萬一關稅被調整的話"},{"start":11137.728,"end":11153.893,"text":"我們能會得到多少的這個衝擊跟傷害那報告委員我想所有的剛才你在上面所列舉的這些業者我們都談過我們都有談過那建立各種不同的情境因為美國會跟我們談什麼樣的內容"},{"start":11156.397,"end":11163.339,"text":"我們沒有辦法了解但是我們可以推論我們還沒有談我們會去推論那我們主談不是經濟部談我們談的是我們的這個談判辦公室在談是因為部長你特別說你會協助廠商以往這個美國那我們是擔心"},{"start":11176.462,"end":11205.882,"text":"這些產業包括像台積電他到美國去投資上下游的整個產業也都會為了成本問題而到美國去那你要協助這些產業到美國那整個我們台灣的就業市場不就會下降了嗎不會報告委員我想這個地方大家應該是可以用比較科學的來討論這個數大就分支數大就分支他今天到美國去特別像你剛才所指導的這個台積電這件事情"},{"start":11206.882,"end":11232.953,"text":"台積電是非常大它是一個世界市場的公司而且它是一個所以大家可能比較了解就是因為大所以上下游的產業才會跟著它走啊上下游的產業啊它也要看它的成本能不能夠符合那成本不能夠符合幾乎很難移動我要跟委員報告就我專業的角度跟我的經驗來跟您報告的話我可以分享給你就是說"},{"start":11234.215,"end":11254.753,"text":"供應鏈的部分大概是十倍的量對於這個台積電使用量的十倍所以我今天賣給台積電譬如說假設矽晶圓矽晶圓台積電大概一個月用兩萬片一條線如果說部長你講到這個問題的話本席要提醒你"},{"start":11255.393,"end":11257.374,"text":"剛剛有講到說我們出口到美國是1163億的美元那但是我們看到我們在這個所有我們晶片或者半導體的設備出口到美國大概佔有83.51億的美元在我們出口值上只是不到5%"},{"start":11272.66,"end":11292.711,"text":"不到我怕我們被美國要增加這個關稅我們就被嚇到了馬上就跑到美國去設廠在這種情形之下想請教部長就是說那是不是說我們台積電到美國之後的話我們就有這個當籌碼來幫忙所有我們其他產業到出口到美國可以免備加徵關稅的這個籌碼是不是這樣子"},{"start":11295.403,"end":11322.636,"text":"這個部分我想報告委員這個是綜合的考量我相信台積電會幫助它的供應鏈來談出一個比較好的條件畢竟打它關稅那對台積電的成本就增加了那就更沒有競爭力了所以這個不符合企業國際化的這樣的一個要求我要跟委員報告的就是說台積電到美國去"},{"start":11323.938,"end":11348.197,"text":"絕對不是受到美國 它一定是受到美國客戶的需求客到美國客戶的需求因為它是有客戶的需求 可是部長你不要忘了國際企業的創造只有兩個我們知道都要創造走入國際化但是人才外流是我們擔心的因為它現在宣布了說要到美國研發中心當然跟我們台灣的研發中心是有區隔的"},{"start":11348.737,"end":11365.783,"text":"一個是那個先進的製程一個是屬於整個產能產量的製造但是兩個研發中心的人才在那邊一起的時候你要知道說他會不會超前了我們的技術或者我們技術會流到美國去這個都是我們關係的問題你是不是給我一點時間跟你說明"},{"start":11368.524,"end":11384.421,"text":"美國的研究大概是做這個基本的研究包括材料 包括用什麼樣的設備來生產這個是美國的同仁他們比較喜歡做的事情所以美國的大學 美國的研究所都是在做這個所謂Research"},{"start":11386.114,"end":11412.753,"text":"對這個工作但是台積電最厲害在台灣的有9000人的那個是做develop可是他也說他要肩負著開創新的技術啊對但是那個技術啊要能夠成為生產他要能夠發展出來這要量產就好像我今天在家裡我只能做一點的這個這個譬如說10件但是我在工廠生產的就是1萬件"},{"start":11414.073,"end":11440.635,"text":"有这个技术要发展成能够制造部长你要了解这些都是我们担心的你要如何让国人能够增强信心不会因为台积电到美国去投资之后我们大家信心会大几这个我举一个例子继续壮大我们的护国神山台积电台积电是它的技术就是到哪里大概别人很难接受的很难接收的"},{"start":11441.567,"end":11468.337,"text":"可是研發中心在美國設之後這是我們擔心的他那個是在線上我這個線上已經成熟了我要讓他良率因為半導體注重的是良率可是我們就趴超前了啦這個在研發中心在美國之後他們的各項技術就會超前我們台灣的研發中心報告委員台積電在座剛剛跟我講研究跟發展的工程師有一萬多位"},{"start":11470.123,"end":11486.115,"text":"所以這個是不可能 他去的是一千位是這個所謂製程商 我在生產上面的工程師如何生產的成本更低 如何的效益更好部長你要有信心 那也希望能夠讓我們的護國神山繼續壯大好不好是 好 謝謝我們現在請賴氏寶委員做詢答"},{"start":11504.808,"end":11507.317,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長"},{"start":11515.387,"end":11542.086,"text":"委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力"},{"start":11543.668,"end":11557.25,"text":"這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練接兵了這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有找你談過這個事"},{"start":11558.591,"end":11584.762,"text":"這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚嘛我們大概都很清楚 勿視敵之不來 恃無有以待我知道 有沒有跟你談過 跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣的你們這裡面可以掉"},{"start":11585.462,"end":11606.568,"text":"可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人吊車輛吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間訓練時間給的錢"},{"start":11615.202,"end":11627.714,"text":"有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個"},{"start":11629.045,"end":11646.561,"text":"你好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談"},{"start":11647.742,"end":11674.892,"text":"都還沒有這麼清楚委員所垂訓的部分是非常細的這個細節沒有 這個很重要因為我知道很重要但是你垂訓的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個層級還沒有進入到你所垂訓的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題"},{"start":11675.712,"end":11701.839,"text":"我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就有這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信財政部也一定會依法來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容"},{"start":11703.139,"end":11722.513,"text":"我問的不是很細心我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談啊問這樣子你一直你沒有回答我嘛內政部有沒有找你談嘛問題這麼大我不知道從哪裡回答你的問題有沒有找經濟部談事實上是沒有嘛你後面的長官你說沒有嘛有沒有嘛"},{"start":11726.752,"end":11748.564,"text":"這個那我請這個我同仁回答有沒有找你們談報告委員因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題的那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權動署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你們有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嗎目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大"},{"start":11749.324,"end":11761.929,"text":"人家感覺好像台灣又要受打的樣子有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調是這樣子的我要強調這個概念"},{"start":11766.551,"end":11781.899,"text":"你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來全民防衛動員啊我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講"},{"start":11783.829,"end":11792.258,"text":"內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛"},{"start":11799.965,"end":11813.599,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面這個都要透過很多的第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是一千億美金還是兩千億美金"},{"start":11823.533,"end":11836.163,"text":"就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認"},{"start":11838.16,"end":11842.822,"text":"到現在為止我不是當事人嘛美國總統 美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億"},{"start":11858.05,"end":11882.324,"text":"一千里沒搞到兩千里所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千里還是兩千里就是說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候"},{"start":11883.445,"end":11895.17,"text":"就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔"},{"start":11901.493,"end":11911.502,"text":"請問這個件送進沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你幹嘛這樣 經濟部等於"},{"start":11915.365,"end":11942.792,"text":"這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔"},{"start":11943.712,"end":11969.746,"text":"我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?"},{"start":11971.155,"end":11987.956,"text":"外資的部分大概佔了這個七八十個七十二%這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董"},{"start":11990.271,"end":12007.45,"text":"幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是林全所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個林全這個這樣的一個結構"},{"start":12012.591,"end":12015.372,"text":"外界的質疑 外界的擔心是有道理的這個要變美積電 隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人了啊董事長換人就可以了啊每一個產業 每一個產業都有它的特性"},{"start":12031.036,"end":12052.992,"text":"不能夠用一般的論述來講這個特殊的產業台積電這個產業坦白講它的資本支出是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想"},{"start":12056.775,"end":12083.308,"text":"不是啊 我跟你講是說通不是啊 我跟你講從董事的結構從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒有回答我的問題啊因為大家人三個 美國人四個啊 獨棟 也是外國人兩個二比一 他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦"},{"start":12084.789,"end":12109.667,"text":"為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做得不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎英特爾這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台"},{"start":12111.348,"end":12133.68,"text":"這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子"},{"start":12134.71,"end":12152.615,"text":"如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來很高的這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能"},{"start":12153.576,"end":12168.491,"text":"專業不可能學術當然可能啊這不可能因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年以後50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告它就是不可能就學術上面的討論就機率來看"},{"start":12172.034,"end":12196.465,"text":"他是非常微薄不是說不可能非常微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是推頂比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是推頂比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你推頂做得比較多啦原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點我很在意的"},{"start":12198.206,"end":12203.225,"text":"你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點"},{"start":12205.103,"end":12231.625,"text":"老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦"},{"start":12232.523,"end":12259.163,"text":"一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我要核電我個人我個人我支持但是你不要核電你要一千億我不接受謝謝委員謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億"},{"start":12260.504,"end":12268.254,"text":"但是今天送到地理協議 地理協議完全被刪掉我就覺得這個不是專業的討論沒有 你要想盡極盡 要窮起於心辦法Cost down"},{"start":12274.517,"end":12291.417,"text":"然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用便利用貴的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你剛剛講的童子賢都講了我們不是說不用而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個"},{"start":12292.378,"end":12313.341,"text":"这个之下我们必须要遵法我们也必须要守法今天如果我们不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那这个政府还有信赖吗所以我曾委员报告今天那个法的框架在那个地方我们必须要依法行事这个你不能要求我们不依法行事这一点我们不能接受"},{"start":12314.583,"end":12328.643,"text":"沒有這個法咧沒有這個法這個法我想這個核安法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除"},{"start":12329.56,"end":12352.176,"text":"沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當官還是不要用我現在擔任這個部長我必須要尊重 遵守中華民國的法令法令沒有說不能用核電喔"},{"start":12353.464,"end":12370.274,"text":"法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守"},{"start":12372.662,"end":12392.881,"text":"我再強調一遍你1000億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被捶第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們"},{"start":12394.076,"end":12415.811,"text":"都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請洪孟楷委員做詢答"},{"start":12423.769,"end":12435.69,"text":"然後我們先宣告中午不休息 延長開會時間到議程處理完畢好 主席謝謝麻煩請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":12443.497,"end":12460.571,"text":"好 國務部長 只有四分鐘 不過還是簡要的跟你質詢一下就是能源是國安議題 我想大家也都重視能源為什麼之前一直講是說一定要操之在己那最近又再傳出 因為你之前提過說菲律賓重電這樣的一個訊息也改口了"},{"start":12460.911,"end":12481.812,"text":"但最近又在傳出說是可行性評估已經完成是不是來我先確認一下兩件事如果說真的經濟部目前規劃或是台電公司目前規劃要跟菲律賓買電的話是要跟菲律賓的原有的電力公司買還是要跟台商在那邊投資的電力公司買"},{"start":12482.598,"end":12499.719,"text":"報告委員都不是以上皆非好那怎麼樣第一個先看那個地方適不適合發展綠能的電力比如說有沒有這個土地啊土地夠不夠然後土地到底夠不夠能夠做這個太陽能光電或者是做這個這個"},{"start":12502.141,"end":12523.424,"text":"就是土地的問題嗎來再來所以我們可行性評估已經算過了是這個兩種那邊有足夠的土地足夠的土地有沒有那有沒有辦法把這個成本壓低目前看起來成本一度墊是五塊五以上嗎不是我們的可行性評估一度墊發展出來一定是兩塊以內好"},{"start":12524.926,"end":12535.432,"text":"那再來你現在講是說兩塊以內但本席剛剛問的問題在於是說是跟現有菲律賓的電力公司買還是誰發電我們讓國內的讓國內的做這個光電的廠商跟做這個陸域風電的廠商"},{"start":12544.156,"end":12568.719,"text":"我們的Business Model是希望國內的廠商到菲律賓去圈地發電然後再把那個電發出來之後賣回來給台灣原則是這樣 但是地是由經濟部幫助他們找更大的地跟菲律賓官方來談我們跟菲律賓的官方正在進行這方面的研究"},{"start":12570.242,"end":12594.572,"text":"所以現在是接觸到什麼程度了現在接觸的到就是我們還是在做可行性評估的階段已經評估完了認為可行的開始要進入實境調查我們現在的綠電在台灣的發電成本相對來講是高的那其中很大的一個部分是我們的零組件都是從哪一些國家進口"},{"start":12595.219,"end":12621.628,"text":"我們的零組件一部分是國內生產一部分大概從境外是,哪些國家境外的國家大概現在中國、越南、泰國我們有接受中國大陸的零組件嗎我們不准中國進來是啊,那這樣你怎麼剛會講說有中國的零組件我是外國的供應鏈有在中國的,也有在越南的但是我們能夠接受的進口的零組件主要還是泰國跟越南嗎是的"},{"start":12622.108,"end":12641.006,"text":"那全世界這個我其實之前就諮詢過囉我說全世界裡面來講中國大陸確實不可諱言他們的光電發電的零組件或是技術相對成熟能源是選擇但是因為我們國家有國安的相關疑慮所以我們不准中國大陸進口但菲律賓咧"},{"start":12642.622,"end":12659.037,"text":"菲律賓他百分之多少是用中國大陸的零組件我們現在這樣子報告委員所以我在講嘛所以我們大概就是買電發你不要先不要轉移焦點我先請教說菲律賓發電現在有多少是中國大陸零組件這個我不清楚"},{"start":12659.497,"end":12673.493,"text":"你不清楚我們沒有同仁現在我們一個經濟部部長要到菲律賓那麼重要的國家講說我們的能源政策是要到菲律賓買電結果不清楚說菲律賓有多少是用中國大陸的零組件來做發電"},{"start":12675.069,"end":12703.322,"text":"委員你這樣的這個質詢那你知不知道那這樣子我就要更嚴重懷疑我現在很聚焦啊不是部長那我現在嚴重懷疑您知不知道2024年菲律賓有馬尼拉電力公司他還跟中國大陸的中國電力建設集團簽約有工程採購跟施工的合約我們跟他沒有關係啦不是菲律賓有那麼多好所以我現在很直接的請教跟"},{"start":12704.082,"end":12715.874,"text":"要求 你的溝通或是你的這個未來的規劃裡面台灣的廠商到菲律賓去做發電會不會用到中國大陸的零組件不可能"},{"start":12716.986,"end":12743.018,"text":"會在合約裡面明白確定我沒有跟他什麼合約但是我如果買電的時候我就會寫你就會要求嘛跟國內一樣嘛跟我們台灣國內一樣跟國內一樣對不對當然這是本席站在這邊要捍衛我們台灣的一個權益就是要求經濟部提出來即便是未來有任何規劃到菲律賓你也不能用中國大陸的領主権"},{"start":12744.878,"end":12773.005,"text":"國內台灣的境內的規定是一模一樣的當然因為以我專業的報告他們的零組件是有安全上面的問題非常好所以我們不會用本席就是要經濟部長徹底的承諾在公開的經濟委員會裡面徹底承諾就是即便是我們有台灣的廠商到菲律賓投資也不能因為在海外而用中國大陸的零組件是的謝謝委員謝謝我們有這個機會"},{"start":12774.465,"end":12802.501,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員做詢答主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政務局院所長的官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請經濟部郭部長和能源署理代理署長以及台電公司曾董事長"},{"start":12803.134,"end":12804.98,"text":"好 請郭部長一律所述的"},{"start":12806.892,"end":12833.847,"text":"剛好山海東鎮部長好 署長好 董事長好來 標題很清楚離島供電虧損遷移依法撥補合作開發綠電實現電網互通來 我們請到這個新聞大概在3月9號的時候台電持續虧損擬漲電價追討離島補貼部長 這個消息你知道嗎3月9號 知道那台電說它有三個劇本我們還是希望說這個小店家住宅小用戶盡量不要漲或不要漲那麼多"},{"start":12835.208,"end":12860.834,"text":"但是台電說那如果這樣的話我不行啊我要去追討這個離島補貼來看一下部長知道離島發電的虧損過去有補貼嗎有沒有撥補離島簽署條例是4條嘛用水用電平均費率收取嘛然後呢主管機關中央目的世界主管機關審查後要編列預算撥補資請問部長提供離島平價水電是依法的"},{"start":12862.396,"end":12891.237,"text":"義務對不對那因此要撥補業者的虧損這是不是政府的法定義務要用法定的支出是的是的好所以經濟部會怎麼做經濟部我想謝謝委員的這個提醒經濟部當然就是通通是依法行事經濟部一向的作為就是依法行事不只依法行事還要尊重民意機關來105年行政院曾經說不要編列預算指引給經濟部可是後來呢在去年"},{"start":12892.517,"end":12913.546,"text":"經紀委會審查說做成決議喔要請離島基金研議撥補台電的可行性研議的結果你們有研議嗎離島基金來撥補台電可行性你們有研議嗎這個部分我是不是請台電董事長跟你們報告其實也不是台電啦離島基金是誰在管離島基金國發會在管嘛那國發會有來嗎"},{"start":12915.249,"end":12929.075,"text":"國發沒有啦 我問過國發會了啦他們基本上的尊重行政院的決定啦 往下看所以請問部長那如果是用本院的決定是用離島基金來撥補的話哪個機關要負責編列預算經濟部經濟部編列預算給離島基金那離島基金要來撥補 是這樣的意思嗎來 那曾董事長講一下報告委員喔"},{"start":12942.146,"end":12950.55,"text":"會有這一個討論其實關鍵就是行政院直接編在經濟部補貼台電的預算兩筆都沒有通過所以才會去討論法定的部分離島的建設條例這一條確實是法有明定是那邊在誰那裡那個編列的是14條的規定是由目的世界主管機關來編"},{"start":12966.638,"end":12991.724,"text":"好就是來審查那個是這個目的事業主管居然水電的目的事業主管機關是經濟部對但是整個基金放是在國發會這一個條例的造級是行政院所以它其實是一個很特別的法令很好它的主管機關在行政院不在各個部會這是一個非常特別的事謝謝我們請郭部長喔部長這樣你的領袖太重要喔是是你在行政院不能客氣喔國發會我都幫我幫你跟主委都問過囉雖然"},{"start":12993.144,"end":13015.291,"text":"總之他坐在你旁邊謝謝委員我都問過了好往下看來現在來聽個問題不同的環境資源條件適合發展不同的能源政策像澳洲有廣大的沙漠現在的光電它可以來發展對不對像是加拿大有豐沛的河川它就可以發展水力發電有些國家有石油有煤有天然氣它可以發展火力發電是不是這樣子"},{"start":13016.527,"end":13039.193,"text":"那請問台灣這些地方你都有嗎?台灣有廣闊的沙漠嗎?有豐沛的水電嗎?像加拿大,還是我們底下有蘊藏石油煤跟天然氣?報告委員,我們現在還是在國內找尋不需要進口的這些能源,包括小水利,包括我們的地熱,這個都是我們在...對,包括低熱,低熱潛力很大,但是基本上台灣"},{"start":13039.753,"end":13066.114,"text":"目前現有的我們的地理條件我們還是要需要進口能源或進口電是因為我們所做的這個再生能源因為我們的土地不夠多那我們的海岸也不夠長所以我想只能夠這個做進口的能源所以進口能源而且進口能源很大部分用來發電是不是這樣子是的那也可以進口電好我們看一下來哪些國家加拿大的電力呢"},{"start":13067.042,"end":13090.065,"text":"美國從加拿大進口水電,是不是?是德國從俄羅斯拿天然氣來發電,也從法國進口電力所以一個國家的電力網,它可以尋求進口能源,也可以直接進口電力,是嗎?是的那台灣目前有進口電力嗎?台灣目前沒有進口電力沒有進口電力嗎?好,我們來看一下所以電網如果互通的話,也可以進口電力嗎?"},{"start":13090.706,"end":13114.148,"text":"譬如說最近大家討論的剛剛報告洪源提到菲律賓的重電您提說新聞報導說每度是5.5還可以實地考察來我們來看一下目前從菲律賓如果要進口電有三種四種方法啦三種方法第一HVDC高壓直流輸電可以長目前已有的可以重1600公里比交流電還要節省損耗技術上是可行"},{"start":13116.77,"end":13135.065,"text":"是的但是可能台灣跟菲律賓有很深的海溝超過3000公尺以上這個還要評估好另外有人說那用電磁團運輸對不對儲能設置裝在船上把電運了進去有沒有可能性也有嘛有好另外一種呢就是轉換為氫能把菲律賓的電先轉成氫能再用"},{"start":13136.11,"end":13158.461,"text":"安 淡 用它來轉化 讓LNG運送到其他國家 是不是這樣好 但是最後一種呢就是可能我看到最近有人在提到的 今天的新聞台中院在講就是境外關內的產業園區啊也就是說境外發展的電 不是用輸到台灣來我們把台灣的部分產業 乾燥我們的產業分工放一部分到那個地方去 直接用那個地方來綠電經濟部有評過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":13160.818,"end":13180.214,"text":"這個就是我境外觀內的非常重要的一環好 很好 那這個時間所以我們剛剛在談到菲律賓的供電其實我去考察過菲律賓的大馬尼拉電力公司其實菲律賓的工業用電比台灣還高住宅用電更是讓那邊的台商嚇得要死為什麼有沒有進一步去理解一下菲律賓的電力系統"},{"start":13181.91,"end":13208.262,"text":"報告委員我們一開始就沒有考慮使用菲律賓現有的電力設施跟現有的電力的這個做法我們是在一個在跟菲律賓政府希望能夠談到一個具有經濟這個價值的一塊比較大的一個土地然後我們在那裡把台灣的業者送到那個地方去因為透過有這個經濟的這個"},{"start":13210.964,"end":13222.96,"text":"這個作用讓它的成本更降低然後它這個電可以賣給我們將來境外關內的工業區的這些業者使用剩下的送回來台灣"},{"start":13223.952,"end":13241.903,"text":"來跟部長說明一下因為在場有些人不是不一定會像董事長那麼了解電力這叫做職工啦發電業者他不直接把電他不把電賣給大電力網在大電網分配到用戶去他直接賣給什麼耗能虛能的用戶簡言之今天在菲律賓之前有光電業者去設廠"},{"start":13243.164,"end":13264.904,"text":"結果後來很吃虧 為什麼因為大馬尼拉這個菲律賓的電力公司的輸配線路的管理效能不如台電所以收很高的管線費算一算呢 如果要賣給他價格會變得很低 不划算不賣給他 都賣停工期啊所以其實之前呢 我去考察過菲律賓台灣過去的光業者在那邊如果都考慮到 聽說我的店要賣給"},{"start":13266.243,"end":13290.109,"text":"菲律賓的電力供應他不要但是如果我們台商去設廠需要綠能的產業去設廠像半導體他需要綠電他直接賣給台灣的廠商他很願意部長有往這個方向去考量嗎是的 我們一開始就是往這個方向就是職工啦直接供應好 最後的結論請協同主計總署研議籌措國發基金依法撥補台電離島的供電虧損可以嗎"},{"start":13292.83,"end":13315.24,"text":"我會幫你去找主席總書因為他在財政委員會是 這是離島建設基金對 這是離島建設基金啊是喔 對不起不是瓜哥基金說錯了是離島建設基金打錯了齁那另外呢整合能源供應和產業需求評估在鄰近國家地區比如說像菲律賓設置台灣產業園區的可行性可以嗎是的好 那麼進入給本席一個書面的一個報告好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請郭國文委員做詢答"},{"start":13332.426,"end":13335.208,"text":"主席有請郭部長郭部長部長好我想總諮詢的時候跟你討教過有關於地面型跟屋頂型的問題那之所以需要跑向屋頂型是因為地面型其實非常困難到目前政策缺口還缺個五六GW"},{"start":13357.062,"end":13374.778,"text":"那地面型之所以出了這麼多爭議性的問題的話其實啊 台鹽本身啊的這個台鹽底下的台鹽綠能的爭議案件就受人詬病問題是台鹽是經濟部每年投資6.9億持股佔38.8%董事其實是9席當中佔5席過半"},{"start":13384.87,"end":13399.13,"text":"結果呢這個台研綠能的董事長總經理分別起訴12年跟10年經濟部有沒有責任啊有沒有主管受到嚴懲啊部長請回答"},{"start":13403.576,"end":13426.99,"text":"報告委員這個是在我想目前為止還沒有確定的沒有確定 已經起訴這麼嚴重了你要等到判決定才要做懲處嗎起訴我想 你就告訴我起訴了 起訴不代表定罪啦12年 10年 好那你告訴我那如果定罪之後你們要不要懲處如果定罪的話我們當然懲處懲處 懲處主管機關懲處誰 到什麼階段"},{"start":13432.333,"end":13452.242,"text":"這個我想這個法院會來沒有沒有沒有 法院是法院 我說到你行政機關行政政府的時候 公務員懲戒委員會報告委員 我們會就法院這個結果來做一個適時的懲處必要的時候來做懲處好 第二個 這一家公司啊搞得烏煙瘴氣 讓整個綠能持續被污名化"},{"start":13456.9,"end":13462.523,"text":"我問一下整個公社資本人啊虧了連2.5億啊已經快虧光了聽說你們是要再加碼還是要把它收起來方向怎麼樣"},{"start":13472.547,"end":13487.972,"text":"這個方向都會做各種不同的評估什麼時候會出來這個評估的話我想我們會經過各種風險的評估然後找出一個最適合的方法出來的時候我們再跟委員報告什麼時候 要不要加一個時間點要評估那麼久嗎"},{"start":13489.832,"end":13512.621,"text":"台研現在正在進行這個最後的評論台研啊基本上是屬於一種國有的一個企業卻沒有受到立法院的監督什麼事情我們找他的時候擺出一副老大不管的樣子在我的選區當中七座當中有三座而且連台研博物館找他來討論一下愛理不理"},{"start":13517.16,"end":13540.263,"text":"這個就是你們自己的行政監督的結果啊搞出這麼多弊案啊是 報告委員我想台研就像您剛剛所指正的我們只持股38.8我們是最大的股東對但是它是已經一個上市的公司是所以我想也算是一個公股公司啦很多的單位在監管它主要的大股東是你們啦你們占50%啦是你們直接可以擁有決定權的啦"},{"start":13541.684,"end":13566.88,"text":"我們當然會監督他的這個監督不力啊,要好好檢討啦好,我再跟你討論另一個問題你看森巴第二期到現在為止喔二期的森巴電業執照還遲遲未發我就問你嘛整個森巴從去年六月以來配合台電調度南科工電1.1GW試運轉已經到這種狀態已經快一年了"},{"start":13570.991,"end":13597.601,"text":"為什麼徵招還沒有發下來為什麼這個委員我可以請這個署長跟你報告可以 來 能源署長是 報告委員因為那個立法院這邊在1月有一個主決議裡面有一些要求申報要履行的事項他還沒有完成哪一個事項沒有完成目前比較重要的就是希望他跟這個民眾辦理公開的說明會公開的說明會辦過幾場你知道了嗎"},{"start":13599.202,"end":13622.643,"text":"目前立法院要求他能夠辦四場那麼之前我們已經他辦了一場但是另外三場還沒有辦所以我們希望他盡快能夠依照立法院的決議把這三場辦好那個說明的部分老早就已經辦過好幾次一直強調所謂的安全檢測的部分安全檢測的部分就找了瑞士羅生公司來進行安全檢測"},{"start":13623.664,"end":13650.638,"text":"瑞士羅生公司也是中油管線的一個公司也沒有問題的情況底下為什麼安全沒問題什麼都沒有問題結果你們執照遲遲不發送事實上我們在我手頭上喔是好幾區的十幾個里長是簽署了聲明書他們希望你們趕快合法所以我們希望申辦能夠依立法院的決議趕快辦說明會那辦完之後他辦了好幾場了啦"},{"start":13651.678,"end":13668.951,"text":"因為後來他是有這個經紀委已經快一年了啦按照這種程序裡頭你們如果不給這個執照的話基本上是違法的我們不會不給他執照你們拖了快一年啊你一年沒有給的話他電協金的回饋金就沒有辦法運作啊"},{"start":13670.21,"end":13694.289,"text":"我算一下這個電學金的部分以發電量來說每一度要0.018來做回饋的話48億度的話總共每年回饋金額8640萬你現在地方已經實質在承擔這個發電的這種負擔的情況底下你回饋不給你是什麼意思所以我們希望森巴能夠盡快依立法院的主決議來完成"},{"start":13696.111,"end":13708.219,"text":"這個組決議基本上就已經辦過啦之前就辦過好幾次你要到底辦幾場啊因為那是組決議以後希望他能夠再辦四場那目前辦一場我們希望把他他趕快把這另外三場辦完到底要辦幾場要求是要求再辦一場就好了"},{"start":13711.653,"end":13739.067,"text":"要求辦四場那我們可以請他再辦因為他有辦一場了那但是還不符合主決議的要求所以我們希望他能夠盡快完成我跟你講署長你要尬死一點是這明明是兩回事他那個說明會是為了一期一期跟二期是兩回事要脫鍋處理啊你聽到沒有了解你剛代理署長而已啊是你要表現得跟上面那個署長不一樣一點啊是不要被拖得團團轉啊"},{"start":13741.002,"end":13760.316,"text":"我跟你講 如果說你這樣弄不好 我就找你算帳搞什麼啊 這違法的事情 你們可以公開違法堵職沒有違法 我們一定是照程序來算程序都已經給你們了 已經運轉快一年了 還沒有證照"},{"start":13762.239,"end":13786.883,"text":"這沒有違法因為他目前的審查已經經過國際公司的檢定了已經安全無虞了你還不給他細節我們跟委員報告第一個他之前有送資料他的資料是要件不齊全所以我們有把它做一句已經即時補件了啦目前他還沒有送到我們這邊之前已經即時補件了如果沒有即時補件就罰他嘛好 部長來我再問你一下 部長"},{"start":13789.557,"end":13811.36,"text":"部長,之前整個能源署出的問題就是在KPI的問題,橫衝直撞,包括太陽能是這樣子,包括天然氣也是這樣子,天然氣的話用KPI思考的話,硬要把酒味通過,結果現在酒味弄到後來,酒味也是受害者,之前我就跟你們講,"},{"start":13816.125,"end":13825.496,"text":"這個簽這個 簽這個電力採購協定之前一定要有這個這一個環評 好 現在又知錯能改 改過來要環評了好 現在九威呢 有沒有辦法運轉"},{"start":13828.578,"end":13851.063,"text":"沒有辦法嘛我們都是依照這個法令的規定在進行我跟你講啦 好 法令啦要取得施工息可必要條件要經過還品他現在沒有拿到還品合約已經到二月底已經到期了那現在已經到期的情況底下你有沒有確定了解台電有沒有依法處罰款這個我請台電董事長跟你們報告好不好"},{"start":13851.82,"end":13878.552,"text":"有沒有我請台電董事長跟你報告總經理跟你報告報告委員九位公司已經來函要求說要終止契約只是說這個終止契約的條件譬如剛您提到的整個的罰款金額怎麼計算雙方還有一些爭執爭議這個爭議我們正在處理當中大概是目前的進度到這裡目前在確認罰款的金額那罰是什麼時候開始罰"},{"start":13880.594,"end":13900.131,"text":"依照合約啦齁那因為當時的這個合約在執行的過程當中有一些不可抗力的條件我們有給他一些這方面的一些展言那要罰幾個月才能終止契約所以目前就是針對這個部分我們認為要多罰一點他認為要少罰一點可是就時間上沒有argument空間吧"},{"start":13900.811,"end":13919.485,"text":"你金額你多少你們兩部分可以談可是就實質金額你罰款六個月之後你今年應該8月25號就要終止契約條件了不是嗎是就是我們預計罰他六個月的那個所以最慢8月25號就依法終止契約是最慢到8月25最慢8月25 9月就結束了"},{"start":13922.054,"end":13937.022,"text":"因為他已經提前要求說要提前終止契約好 真正退場就8月25對 如果最晚的話大概就是這個時候但是就是合約會到那個時候結束啦但是中間的法律上的一些談判我知道 我期待8月25有結果 謝謝是謝謝我們現在請陳昭之委員做詢答不要走"},{"start":13950.263,"end":13967.438,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答"},{"start":13971.129,"end":13995.8,"text":"我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台樹集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗水產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎"},{"start":13999.588,"end":14018.985,"text":"您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠"},{"start":14026.617,"end":14046.834,"text":"環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化"},{"start":14048.475,"end":14075.518,"text":"這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞部那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設"},{"start":14077.54,"end":14089.594,"text":"國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實"},{"start":14090.748,"end":14095.69,"text":"我支持你的這個檢舉但是假設的問題 假設的問題我不允許我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果真的出現造假不是我認為如果有證據我問你的博弈事業造假你辦不辦"},{"start":14114.721,"end":14123.147,"text":"我這是依法犯禮啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠世界突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎"},{"start":14130.134,"end":14136.159,"text":"卓院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的"},{"start":14146.809,"end":14175.898,"text":"台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎"},{"start":14177.076,"end":14199.052,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢的時候提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們有了解的程度我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嘛部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電"},{"start":14200.373,"end":14201.234,"text":"您的簡報是顧問公司的,不是我們台電接受的"},{"start":14221.337,"end":14229.059,"text":"這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼"},{"start":14250.45,"end":14260.656,"text":"超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶"},{"start":14273.186,"end":14299.098,"text":"天哪報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的你要拿去查"},{"start":14300.339,"end":14310.907,"text":"我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 最後一部資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND not detectable用一個點 一個點位採測"},{"start":14321.795,"end":14333.118,"text":"這個是根據他的法律的規定我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事報告委員我們是依法行事你們看看TPH就是這個污染指標重金屬大澳新你不能夠跳出那個法的規定來講這些事情大家在場大家都會看好繼續看"},{"start":14344.821,"end":14352.199,"text":"你看這個總是有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好再下一張"},{"start":14354.106,"end":14377.736,"text":"這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三張突然污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多路連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候告訴你多路連本有那麼毒的四季就多人都出現了"},{"start":14379.319,"end":14398.709,"text":"結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個"},{"start":14399.189,"end":14416.781,"text":"我們做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異"},{"start":14418.407,"end":14420.589,"text":"部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開"},{"start":14435.04,"end":14441.243,"text":"要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世間環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世間開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞"},{"start":14463.015,"end":14472.494,"text":"是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛"},{"start":14473.356,"end":14495.327,"text":"好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期"},{"start":14503.444,"end":14524.749,"text":"你現在索賠說 你要指控我這個是假的嗎不是 我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦 你現在就要訴出法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好 那我現在要求那個四階開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理"},{"start":14530.01,"end":14546.796,"text":"他敢翻土 他敢移點 他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎 封閉現場不動 不要讓他有機會作弊 可以嗎 這小事啊報告委員 我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法 我跟你談土無法 我跟你談環評法"},{"start":14549.059,"end":14571.229,"text":"可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案 現場先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就是要做一個這麼大的開發案你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛是 你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情再處理好 那先把這個場地封閉起來 可以嗎"},{"start":14572.089,"end":14576.054,"text":"讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦"},{"start":14580.424,"end":14599.737,"text":"有問題我沒有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 這個根本不用依法你們政庭會有問題 政庭不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話"},{"start":14606.223,"end":14627.982,"text":"不要我沒有那個意思我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土"},{"start":14634.526,"end":14646.473,"text":"陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼龜縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當"},{"start":14648.373,"end":14667.1,"text":"不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢啊沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像有超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊"},{"start":14667.6,"end":14681.428,"text":"好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 立法院的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會"},{"start":14688.908,"end":14700.84,"text":"我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事報告委員我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會好 謝謝"},{"start":14716.291,"end":14738.926,"text":"好 我們現在請林月琴委員做詢答主席想請陳怡伶 標準級的局長好 請陳局長"},{"start":14751.81,"end":14770.206,"text":"委員長因為去年11月就在我們的經濟委員會就已經質詢過同一個主題了那上次我有請標檢局能不能盤點相關法規跟配套措施跟相關部會做討論看如何怎麼做跨部會的合作"},{"start":14770.953,"end":14785.767,"text":"那也希望標準局在後續交給我們一些相關報告所以在報告裡面我們比較沒有辦法看到就是說你們盤點缺乏的法規跟開會這兩個部分我是沒有看到的想問局長說這兩個部分有做嗎"},{"start":14787.088,"end":14809.359,"text":"那為什麼報告裡面沒有呈現這兩個東西所以如果有做的話那是不是會後應該要給我因為我說從去年11月就已經諮詢了然後要請你們交報告到現在這個報告裡面還缺這個先跟口頭跟委員報告一下我們在郭部長指示下2月份由部裡頭召開一個協調會議那也把速發部主管機關找來"},{"start":14810.379,"end":14836.905,"text":"那也把那個相關的那個電商平台都找來我們就是希望進一步找出委員所提的一些問題那我們如何加強我們在會議上都有充分討論好謝謝標準局做的事情不過我們也還是要問因為從你的報告裡邊如果你講說二月份郭部長已經找相關的部會來討論的話那先來問你的報告裡邊回覆竟然寫是跨電"},{"start":14837.885,"end":14857.776,"text":"跨境電商因為我國的法令無意外的效率固難以規範這件事情想問的是說我們當時要你盤的是如果法規上不足的要去定法所以我不知道說現在如果二月份開完會之後這個解決了嗎"},{"start":14858.797,"end":14887.834,"text":"沒有 因為那個跨境電商這個部分我們去了解 survey 一下全世界也沒有一個跨境電商的一個管理即使各國都截然那所以這一塊我們暫時沒有辦法有一個很具體的答案跟委員回報但是我們強調的是說如果東西一旦進到境內我們會加強做境內的管控那目前我們是朝這個方向在積極的一個處理那這個部分有跟委員報告過有一天也是到委員辦公室來這部分我們會持續加強做前市場跟後市場的管理"},{"start":14888.114,"end":14892.199,"text":"不過歐盟在2023年5月就正式通過一般產品的安全規範"},{"start":14894.814,"end":14916.206,"text":"GPSR這邊新規定在2024年12月也就是全面生效要求所有包含跨境電商的商品都要符合歐盟的安全標準所以你這個是不是應該要把它考量進去剛剛跟我回答說沒有可是其實歐盟他們已經做可能要去考慮這種比較積極性的做法"},{"start":14920.769,"end":14933.458,"text":"上次您提到這個GPSR我們有去了解那它現在是一個非常粗犯的一個規範事實上它真正要執行到執行端的那個細節都還沒有出來所以我們會持續挖取它的一個相關規範再麻煩局長"},{"start":14935.86,"end":14950.072,"text":"那現在回收這一塊我想問一下就是這個發現違規是如何發現的就是是靠民眾檢舉投訴嗎然後每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":14951.357,"end":14977.85,"text":"好先跟委員報告一下我們機制上在商品檢驗法的規範下我們派員檢查有兩種一種是我們的同仁市場檢查一種是夠樣檢測也就是說市場檢查是在市面上去看或者是網路上去查如果有商品檢驗法規範的他沒有因私檢驗的話我們就會可以依法通過是那我說那你們這樣做可是大概每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":14978.75,"end":14989.63,"text":"我舉個例子我只要知道件數你們現在做到的是我舉個例子電商這一塊我們自從開始這樣子跟他合作之後我們下架大概一年有七八萬件"},{"start":14990.899,"end":15019.431,"text":"只要他發現是沒有要購的7、8萬件7萬多件那也要再提醒就是我們一直覺得宣導非常重要可是你的小安心粉專從2012年創立到現在13年那粉絲人數在5萬5啦所以我認為還是要再強化因為民眾他需要有知那可是他知道你們有這樣子的一個資訊平台讓他們知道嘛"},{"start":15020.711,"end":15034.996,"text":"還有一個積極檢驗這一塊也想請美季列為我們高風險的標的商品有哪些我們會定期公告可是我現在標檢局網站上我找不到高風險商品檢驗公開資訊"},{"start":15037.069,"end":15059.078,"text":"我們會後再跟文這邊說明一下網路上的查詢的方式我們再跟文這邊說明那剛剛John回答說有7萬件可是我們現在去看到的是說今天我只針對兒童產品了解下架回收的狀況結果發現我們的召回的兒童產品平均一年只有一件"},{"start":15060.342,"end":15088.274,"text":"我剛剛報告的是下架的數量是7萬件那委員說的回收我們有數字因為我現在手邊沒有我會後再提供給辦公室這是我們在你們網站上找到的只有一件可是你去看美國CPSC他們才短短的現在才3月他們已經有38件所以我覺得這是不是應該要去考慮就比較積極的做法讓台灣產品都很安全才可以保障到我們兒童"},{"start":15089.895,"end":15095.158,"text":"再來我們看到嬰屍檢項目這一塊就是標準局在給我報告當中現在總共33項可是足夠嗎因為我們看畫面上的嬰兒的車的風扇還有抽屜櫃的那個仿秦島的束帶那遮光捲簾這些目前都是美國CPSC裡面他們有已經提出一些警訊"},{"start":15117.09,"end":15139.37,"text":"會造成孩子手指夾傷或者是捲到脖子產生窒息的商品所以他們都已經有一些要求所以想問標檢局這種兒童產品的因試驗項目有逐年評估嗎你們評估機制是依據什麼人家事實上是有規劃有確定然後最後去做到然後從標檢局這邊可能就會有些要求在"},{"start":15139.932,"end":15160.323,"text":"有跟我們報告一下我們那個英式檢驗商品有一定的那個程序在走每一年如果社會關切像玩具這個就是過去幾年那個社會上一致的覺得它是一個高風險商品我們就把它列現在這些東西都有已經在如果美國他們已經有系統規劃已經知道這些商品所以對孩子產生傷害"},{"start":15160.822,"end":15178.084,"text":"是不是國內就應該要把列為英式檢驗項目可以 但是我們有一個程序會走就是要看到整個社會氛圍我們也要去知道國內的一個檢驗能量還有產業 從業界產業之間的一個協調才能作為英式檢驗的商品最後就是還是期待"},{"start":15178.865,"end":15178.965,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":15208.325,"end":15236.995,"text":"我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢答黃國昌委員不在黃國昌委員不在我們現在請王宏威委員做詢答王宏威委員 王宏威委員不在我們現在請李坤澄委員做詢答謝謝主席部長已經他請假他請假了好那我就請這一個台電董事長"},{"start":15238.643,"end":15243.163,"text":"沒關係你先喝口水真懂"},{"start":15245.683,"end":15272.976,"text":"是委員好來董事長好這個昨天你有有一個會議那我看了一下會議的一些結論那會議結論那你有提到就是說這個希望330度就是民生用電330度以下的這一個民生用電能夠做合理的調整那所以說因為接下來這月底就是電價審議委員會審議委員會要開會了那你釋出這樣的訊息是不是有想說這個"},{"start":15274.777,"end":15286.95,"text":"第一個是想說反映成本嗎就是說過去長期以來這一個民生用電的這個這個電費偏低所以要反映成本那還是說第二個希望藉由這個來減少台電的這個虧損"},{"start":15290.134,"end":15311.102,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說昨天事實上是有一個跟記者做了一些說明因為大家都非常關心電價那在這個題目上面狀況是這樣我們去說明的都是事實就是說目前為止台灣的電價級距裡面就330度以下的電費"},{"start":15313.024,"end":15326.99,"text":"是比20年前還要低比2004年還要低我要呈現的這是第一個這是事實真的是比較低第二個部分是台電雖然是國營事業但它也是一個營利事業"},{"start":15328.547,"end":15350.418,"text":"那這個部分如果要台電承擔我們認為說政府編列預算來支持是應該要有的工作全世界的一些民主國家也都做德國、日本、法國都做了相關的如果要電業承擔就要由政府來編列預算補貼的一個相關的對等措施"},{"start":15351.243,"end":15376.254,"text":"那我們是認為說如果電價繼續一低那是不是能夠把這個對等措施也能夠同時做起來就是兩件事情第一件事情就是說那一個你提到就是說這個330度以下民生用電你說反映一個事實嘛就是長期是偏低那所以我說你提出來這個事實是說比如說是想要反映成本那事實做調整"},{"start":15377.074,"end":15399.632,"text":"就是說如果我們認為說這個確實乖離成本而且比20年前還低其實違反常識那如果真的電價委員會如果還要做出一個決議就是說持續照顧民生那照顧民生這個部分政府也都編列了預算是不是能夠讓這個預算編列補貼台電的部分能夠真正落實"},{"start":15400.413,"end":15413.3,"text":"那我當然知道啦去年這個最佳1000億那今年也變成1000億但是看起來這2000億應該是很難通過啦那所以才會有接下來就是說好那台電第一個還在虧損當中虧損當中當然第一個這個政府"},{"start":15417.722,"end":15430.512,"text":"如果資金有業助進來那當然對於虧損而說有協助那對於虧損有協助其實漲價的這個壓力就沒有這麼大嘛對不對是的那第二個就是說那如果這兩千億沒有進來的話那台電該怎麼辦報告委員兩千我只能夠跟您說電價也不是台電決定對當然能不能補貼也不是台電決定"},{"start":15444.212,"end":15465.367,"text":"對我知道啊所以所以你才會所以我想說你是不是釋出那個訊息出來就是說因為民生電價長期來講比較偏低我們會希望我們真的會希望因為我要跟委員報告我們提的這些東西都是事實我們也希望社會能夠做合理的討論我們也希望能夠多做一點我們這都在合理的討論你把事實講出來那我們透過這個場域讓社會大眾知道這個事實"},{"start":15471.471,"end":15495.867,"text":"那第二個就是說你還有提到這個有可能會調整這個底度的規定因為過去這個底度的規定跟委員特別做報告感謝您關心因為底度是一個固定支出其實台灣有我們台電的電費統計裡面有100多萬戶有掛電表但是它一個月的用電度數其實不到20度接近150萬150萬的用戶都是講最低的電費而已20度"},{"start":15501.872,"end":15516.909,"text":"對角20度但它是接近空戶但問題是我們掛電錶設電路這些都有固定成本我們覺得隨著物價的上漲人工的費用也上漲這一些固定成本是不是應該做合理的反應尤其是針對空戶"},{"start":15518.751,"end":15544.769,"text":"對那所以說如果按照昨天有釋放出來訊息的話那是不是會把這一個底度把它調整比如說20度往上調調到30度或是40度我們希望的我們希望能夠跟部裡面討論的方式是現在這一些固定成本的邊境成本支出是不是能夠合理的做反應那是不是還要照著這種底度的觀念去做"},{"start":15545.529,"end":15573.501,"text":"就是幾度算是底度這一件事我們也會一併做檢討因為它是一個fixed cost它不是跟因為現在的公式現在的公式有點問題它是跟著變動成本去做計算這個就不對應該要回到固定成本觀念去做計算我來當董事長我也希望能夠把這一些過去電價表不完全合乎經濟邏輯的事情做一些調整在這邊一併跟委員做報告好那表示說這個底度會做調整就對了"},{"start":15577.047,"end":15582.031,"text":"對 就是基本的費用那我再問一下台電目前的財務的狀況目前負債多少我們負債"},{"start":15588.625,"end":15600.369,"text":"兩兆多啊累虧累虧是4229億對累虧啦2024年的計算就是累計虧成是到2024年是4229億嘛好那你們也試圖要舉債嘛對不對是的你們看我們這個今年預計要舉債1500億那去年已經有舉債多少1600億是好那"},{"start":15617.643,"end":15637.404,"text":"這個舉債當然是一個方式 那當然市場買不買帳是另外一回事那可是舉債就有成本啦 有利息啦 我問一下你們一年光是這個舉債利息是多少目前我們的平均利率大概在城上我們的舉債餘額大概一年要支出300億以上"},{"start":15638.223,"end":15660.012,"text":"一年光是利息有300億是的你們這300億是你們舉債是跟公股銀行借錢嗎還是怎麼樣我沒有發各種我還是要跟委員報告因為台電目前的狀況其實我們的利率台電舉借的利率實際上是比一般企業來講稍低一些稍低一些主要是母數很大就是我們的餘額很高還是有300億對"},{"start":15661.673,"end":15663.075,"text":"那所以目前來看的話你們的負債比已經高達九成二了那所以還有舉債的空間嗎"},{"start":15672.52,"end":15697.298,"text":"跟委員報告其實是因為我們不管我們這個市場債的市場有一定程度的未納量那這些銀行持有公司債也有一定比例的上限就是他持有單一公司的比例是有受到軍管會的一些限制的所以我們其實從去年開始我們發公司債的投標比就已經開始下降"},{"start":15699.76,"end":15720.795,"text":"那當然電費漲不漲最後不是你們來決定的那我也相信說如果這一個追加預算跟這個今年撥的預算總共兩千億能夠過當然對於台電的虧損會有所幫助那對台電虧損有所幫助其實就是減輕了全民的負擔其實應該是這樣子來講但是如果這兩千億落空的話"},{"start":15722.378,"end":15733.042,"text":"相信這一個漲價的壓力就會有啦但是這個不是台電你們這家公司的責任啦謝謝委員體諒 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請武力華委員做詢答"},{"start":15752.225,"end":15755.44,"text":"謝謝主席 部長不在 請次長何市長"},{"start":15762.805,"end":15787.968,"text":"委員好次長好關於地熱我在1月的時候我也有來到這裡做質詢那當時也是部長不在請次長所以這個部分我就是跟您重新表達一下我上一次質詢的一個訴求這應該就不是你退休了那當時是提到說要做出一個行政指引"},{"start":15788.669,"end":15804.471,"text":"要有一個爭端的協調平台然後希望有政府投資部落入股的觀念進來也希望有一個地熱專區的示範點那辦理公聽會形成一種新型態的夥伴關係那今天看到我們的夜報"},{"start":15805.552,"end":15824.41,"text":"再生能源發展條例已經新增了地熱專章那地熱能的探勘與開發許可及管理辦法呢也已經公告施行那這裡面呢關於申請的一些條件也很清楚的寫著說在原住民族的土地部落的一個公有土地上"},{"start":15825.071,"end":15846.41,"text":"要有所謂的部落會議的一個相關的文件但是我今天是來關心因為有很多地方現在我們看到來做地熱開發他們選擇的是私有的原保地 私人的土地所以就會有一些些的意見 陳情 紛爭"},{"start":15848.692,"end":15867.562,"text":"那時至今日其實大家討論了那麼久大家都承認說地熱它不屬於私人的地主那麼它是屬於共享的資源現在大家慢慢有這個觀念了因為地熱不同於其他的能源開發所以呢我是想要請教一下市長"},{"start":15868.763,"end":15878.112,"text":"在這種沒有辦法突破現行私有地我們要來踐行部落諮商同意的機制這樣的一個狀況下您認為有沒有什麼好的替代方案可以確保我們在私有土地開發地熱的時候我們怎麼確保部落的權益我想聽聽看次長您的看法報告委員這個是按照那個"},{"start":15892.027,"end":15896.379,"text":"原住民基本法的這個規定那我是不是請我們那個代理署長來跟報告一下好 謝謝署長請"},{"start":15900.225,"end":15928.301,"text":"是 那謝謝委員跟我們的指教那毛委員也跟我們講過那不過我們現在依照我們的原基法第21條它只有要求公有土地那我們目的事業主管機關我們現在是必須要配合原基法那所以是不是要把私有土地納入或是可能需要在原基法那邊做適當的修改或是解釋那目前來講我們沒有辦法違反原基法的規定那有什麼報告"},{"start":15929.181,"end":15949.087,"text":"來 那我現在站在這邊質詢其實就是為了解決這件事因為事實是我們的地熱開發現在如果它在私有土地上會引起爭端因為將心比心我家旁邊的私有地上在做地熱的專炭"},{"start":15951.24,"end":15978.84,"text":"然後完全不需要去來徵求我的同意那這樣子部落就會抗爭那對廠商來講他也覺得做這些投資好可怕那我現在說像前經濟部長王美花部長的時候那時候我們在修礦業法我們就有要求說去做一個指引那這個指引也做出來了那現在是問題就是出在說我們的公有地"},{"start":15979.5,"end":15984.482,"text":"他會有一個狀況我都還沒有獲利對廠商來講我就要談回饋因為他必須要去鑽探結果有可能是沒有開發的價值他就覺得好可怕我都還沒有獲利公有地就要踐行部落諮商同意要談利益分享機制對他來講很為難可是呢對私有地主來講呢或者部落來講我都還沒有同意我就要去被鑽探所以呢這件事情我們就一直希望說政府的態度"},{"start":16009.471,"end":16020.316,"text":"要拿出來那上次有來辦公室跟我報告說目前地熱也打算來做指引那做了沒有進行到什麼階段那內容大概是什麼"},{"start":16022.427,"end":16038.473,"text":"目前有在做那大概我們還會找一些相關的利害關係的團體來共同討論最後才會確認下來所以確實有在做了是是那可能要相關的利害團體我們還要爭取大家意見然後最後確定下來這樣好"},{"start":16039.833,"end":16053.377,"text":"我還是要強調地熱它很特別它不屬於私人地主大家都認為它是屬於共享的資源所以我希望說像這種私有地開發的部落知情同意必須要在地熱開發做一個治理的模式"},{"start":16056.258,"end":16064.325,"text":"例如訂定部落契約去處理這些可能發生的爭議那怎麼樣去執行廠商在申請許可文件的時候要有這樣的一個部落契約那我想這個是希望達到三贏有一點類似三方契約因為公有土地是很明確的要去廠商跟部落之間去做諮商同意但是這種私有地的"},{"start":16080.76,"end":16107.314,"text":"那他的部落契約可能是還要去涉及到一個部落的一個知情同意那我希望說未來在這樣的一個開發模式上面呢我們希望可以很清楚的提到那更何況是我們提到的就是部落入股那讓部落不僅僅是被動的提供這個土地接受開發而是希望能夠建立一種新型態的夥伴關係那希望政府 廠商"},{"start":16108.174,"end":16130.752,"text":"部落或私人我們都能夠達到一個雙贏的地步也能夠共同的去完成我們政府國家定定的一個目標這樣可以嗎是的謝謝委員指教我們會來把他那我也希望說就是能夠在你們辦理地熱論壇之前能夠到我的辦公室我希望得到一個回覆"},{"start":16131.909,"end":16157.199,"text":"是 可以OK好謝謝次長謝謝組長謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請劉許廷委員做詢答劉許廷委員不在劉許廷委員不在我們現在請羅明才委員做詢答羅明才委員不在羅明才委員不在我們現在請葉元之委員做詢答葉元之委員葉元之委員不在我們現在請林德福委員做詢答林德福委員林德福委員不在我們現在請羅志強委員做詢答羅志強委員羅志強委員不在我們現在請"},{"start":16160.64,"end":16165.808,"text":"林思敏委員做詢答林思敏委員林思敏委員不在我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答你好我們請次長何次長"},{"start":16179.381,"end":16207.072,"text":"委員好 次長好 次長我們現在剛才聽到在質詢的時候你已經有提到我們台電累積虧損是4200多億那現在在野黨又刪減大概是1000億來去撥發給台電的預算那所以這樣對國營事業的財務健全我想是會造成一些挑戰那目前這樣聽起來的話是不是這個審議委員會會有漲電價的因應的可能性是不是越來越高"},{"start":16208.569,"end":16221.907,"text":"我想任何的資訊我們都會提供給審議委員會那因為審議委員會裡面有工商團體也有消費者保護的團體那我想大家會綜合我們台電提供的資料大家會做出一個判斷"},{"start":16223.468,"end":16243.558,"text":"好 謝謝因為我特別提到你剛才講到工商還有消費者那我還要特別提到一件事情那就是農業線的農業的相關用電那最近你大概知道說今年大概是這10年來最冷的一年那日照日照的這個時數其實也相對的沒有那麼像其他年份那麼多"},{"start":16244.358,"end":16270.498,"text":"那所以說有一些火龍果的產區特別是我們嘉愛縣的火龍果產區他們直接就在反映說很憂心未來的電價可能調漲影響到他們的農業用電照明的時間那過去火龍果是冬天點燈嘛就冬季的時候來去做點燈但是這一次我們因為這十年來的這個氣候變遷比較嚴重的今年的這個狀況所以說他們從十月點燈到現在"},{"start":16274.52,"end":16291.368,"text":"那這樣子會造成他們的負擔日照又少要忍很久然後必須要再把這個電費可能就是又要提高所以我擔心電價再調升可能會對他們難以生存那我有再次再強調說我們知道說農業用電是有優惠的我們可以理解"},{"start":16292.088,"end":16310.441,"text":"但是對農民的這些朋友來說還是會有負擔那我們總統有提到說叫均衡台灣均衡台灣的目標不是讓這些工業的越來越好讓農業的這些相對弱勢越來越差相反的是要做一些電價上面未來的這些調整都必須要納入考量"},{"start":16311.56,"end":16326.18,"text":"經濟部有沒有了解這一類的高耗電我們不是只限縮於火龍果還有一些重要的這些精緻農業這些所面臨的困境那有沒有一些具體的措施可以解決他們的負擔有沒有一些想法好 那"},{"start":16326.82,"end":16353.221,"text":"針對委員這個提問就是說其實各目的世界主管機關對一些比較弱勢或是需要照顧的的團體其實他們都會做一些電價的一個補助預算的編列那這個也是院裡面也正式也指示從今年開始要回到各目的世界主管機關針對所屬的團體他們要如果要做一些電價的優惠的話可能就是要"},{"start":16354.001,"end":16379.665,"text":"編入預算 所以我想這個部分應該農委會農業部的部分應該也會做一些考量那我要求經濟部跟農業部我們來研議一下針對受衝擊的農業的這個種類樣態來去具體的檢討來提出一個合理的方案好不好來去降低農民朋友的負擔這樣子可不可以 市長這個可以可不可以跨部會跟農業部來做一下如果有需要的話我們會跟農業部這邊來好 謝謝 謝謝市長好 謝謝委員"},{"start":16384.121,"end":16403.598,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請陳培宇委員做詢答陳培宇委員不在 陳培宇委員不在我們現在請徐副委委員做詢答謝謝主席 有請我們台電鄭董事長鄭董事長"},{"start":16410.014,"end":16433.617,"text":"委員好 董事長午安那我想這個河山廠二號機在今年五月要除役嘛那我想這個台電的這個河山廠的這個安全性後續仍是很重要 董事長支持這樣的論調嗎一定一定啦 我也跟委員報告我們那個火警之後我週末我就下去河山督導了"},{"start":16435.134,"end":16463.168,"text":"那我想今天還是要再特別提醒一下董事長根據本席掌握的狀況我們在3月6號早上11點18分河山場發生火警之後縣政府是在7分鐘之後才接到我們的通報那當時第一時間我想我有打電話給廠長關心這個火災的狀況雖然是講起來是一個很小的一個火災但是對我們當地的鄉親造成很大的一個恐懼"},{"start":16464.793,"end":16492.707,"text":"那所以我們還是要提的部分我想現場前幾天也約見了我們河山廠的廠長他們特別要求針對這樣的一個救災的通報的SOP那我不曉得董事長這邊我們總共是我跟委員報告幾個事情第一個事情是我想我們的副總就許副總有親自去跟因為其實當天之後就有電話上面跟平庸縣政府做聯絡事後也有去跟現場致歉就是"},{"start":16493.507,"end":16521.985,"text":"我們的同仁判斷這是一個就是他其實在場就是在廠房外一個水塔失火河山廠有自己的消防隊他們覺得自己可以解決就自己在那邊努力解決通報這件事讓地方政府知道這件事其實是並行優先的所以我們也檢討我們的通報措施就是我們的通報措施其實類似這樣的一個狀況縱使河山廠自己有能力把火撲滅"},{"start":16523.166,"end":16537.806,"text":"也應該要通報主管機關因為無論如何地方的主管機關他有他的管轄權甚至有管轄義務尤其是對於我們的電廠來講我們應該要充分的告知地方主管機關這一點我們一定會檢討"},{"start":16539.068,"end":16563.029,"text":"董事長我想雖然是很小的火災但是當一旦河山廠冒出黑煙這對他們的恐懼感真的很大真的不能等閒視之所以我想針對這個案子之後也希望我們總公司跟我們河山廠未來在處理之後一樣要建構這樣的一個通報一個體系不能這樣輕易的認為自己可以處理就自己處理了我們一定會加強改善"},{"start":16566.718,"end":16581.151,"text":"那董事長請教一下就是針對河山場除役之後當然過去我們河山場對我們這個地方的基礎建設還有社會福利也扮演很重要的一個角色那後續在除役之後針對這樣一個回饋的一個機制是不是會受到影響"},{"start":16582.503,"end":16598.921,"text":"我們轉到那個核後端除疫就會依照除疫的辦法來進行原則上會照著這個辦法來做對這個部分鄉親可能也比較擔心我想這個因為我們後續還是針對一個所謂的健康跟安全的考量"},{"start":16599.401,"end":16612.966,"text":"而且我們還有一些的一些相關的一些人力的設備都在那邊所以還是應該要持續做這樣一個安全的管控是的好謝謝那董事長請回那請一下我們何政次跟我們水利署長委員好"},{"start":16624.034,"end":16648.803,"text":"政事署長我想本期上任之後一直很關心我們大潮州人工湖的第二期的進度那我知道經濟部在去年有送到行政院但是11月份被行政院推薦那有幾個理由我覺得很離譜第一個就是沒有完成第一期的成效評估還有沒有完成所謂的環境影響差異的審查還有今年並沒有編列所謂本案的相關預算"},{"start":16649.703,"end":16677.714,"text":"那其中最離譜的是我們竟然是參酌民國92年的砂石量的一個計算基準用每立方公尺50元計算那目前南部地區政治資料目前現在一立方公尺多少錢嗎現在已經高達400塊到450塊了這相差很多倍啊那為什麼會有出現這樣子一個這麼嚴重的落差呢能不能說明一下好 我請我們那個署長來說明一下"},{"start":16680.158,"end":16707.348,"text":"報告委員那這個案件就是在去年連結的時候行政院這邊有大概初步的審議那就按照剛剛委員講的意見那請這個開發單位因為這個案件是屏東縣政府送出來那我們來合轉到行政院徵取預算那現在等於是送回請縣政府這邊再來加強評估尤其是效益的部分在上一次會議最關鍵就是效益評估的部分"},{"start":16708.376,"end":16730.456,"text":"那我想這點還是要特別拜託一下我們經濟部跟水利署我想這個水跟電尤其我們現在面臨很多這個產業的需求水跟電是不可或缺那尤其我們民生用水的部分大潮州軟公湖是扮演一個很重要的角色這點要請次長跟署長這邊幫忙那另外再請一下我們自然水公司李董事長"},{"start":16734.002,"end":16752.768,"text":"我想過去我們屏東縣的自來水普及率好不容易在去年突破了七成但是若依目前我們自來水的普及率的增加速度一年2%到3%的速度我們還要再過十年屏東縣才可以趕得上全國的普及率這點真的是"},{"start":16754.509,"end":16773.6,"text":"說的鄉親好,很晚談了我想站在經濟部的立場跟我們自來水公司的立場怎麼樣能夠強化這個自來水普及率的進度可不可以請說明一下謝謝委員的指教那屏東縣普及率目前113年是71.65其實從106年到113年公司已經投入了將近100億在改善屏東縣的一個自來水的一個"},{"start":16782.985,"end":16810.865,"text":"普及的提升包括我們建置的淨水廠跟一些的沿管工程那水利署這邊也提到了沿管的計畫五期的計畫有100億左右5年那114年大概已經給屏東縣有9億那我們配合地方就是一些有需求的這些住戶來提出申請那水公司會提水利署這邊評比"},{"start":16812.006,"end":16837.094,"text":"那一年大概也有八九億的經費來投入在屏東縣這一塊的沿館董事長我知道你們很積極但是因為我們屏東縣這個府地遼闊這有時候我們那個評估的機制這個有些比較偏遠的鄉親真的要等到望眼欲穿這真的要很辛苦,要吃熱水很辛苦是不是可以增加一下預算跟速度一下這部分再拜託大家幫忙一下"},{"start":16838.154,"end":16860.232,"text":"我也順便跟委員報告一下其實在這個無自來水改善我們一年大概現在有21億在未來五年計畫光屏東這邊就佔了四成那我們現在水利署跟自來水公司都是全力在投入把集中活力就像委員所談的現在屏東的普及率偏低我們要趕快把它趕上來我想我們會來努力"},{"start":16860.912,"end":16885.024,"text":"另外一個還是要提醒自家水公司針對這個管線維修的速度要快一點有的地方今天北省人工我們的開口契約的速度真的是太慢了根本報告我們公司有內部檢討針對問題我們有提了一些改善的方案尤其是偏鄉離島部分真的要加強這個開口契約的量能再拜託一下董事長這邊再關心一下好謝謝"},{"start":16887.79,"end":16906.48,"text":"好谢谢那现在请徐新英委员做询答徐新英委员徐新英委员不在现在请蔡议员做询答蔡议员蔡议员不在登记发言委员除不在场外其余均已发言完毕询答结束委员罗志强陈超明林德福"},{"start":16907.14,"end":16921.747,"text":"紐許庭 蔡易瑜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程進行到此現在散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}