{"error":false,"id":["165351"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165351,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165351","日期":"2025-11-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-13T09:40:08+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-13T09:53:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face642ec889f8a1d7818ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec816749488fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:08 - 09:53:20","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.83221875,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.08471875,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.94346875,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.56409375,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.67721875000001,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.00346875000001,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.07034375,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.92971875,"end":163.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.80284375000002,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.72409375,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.77721875,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.91784375,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.31346875000003,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.44909375000003,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.18221875,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.70471875000004,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.49346875000003,"end":307.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.11784375,"end":311.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.98221875,"end":343.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.79909375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.07846875,"end":351.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.24284375,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.18346875000003,"end":347.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.56284375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.80596875000003,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.15784375000004,"end":409.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.07659375000003,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.60784375000003,"end":413.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.60346875000005,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.79721875,"end":419.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.98221875,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.33221875000004,"end":427.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.04846875000004,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.72346875000005,"end":431.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.81159375000004,"end":435.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.57034375,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.36346875000004,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.08409375,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.12346875000003,"end":461.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.84409375,"end":467.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.15596875000006,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.48409375000006,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.96909375,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.86284375,"end":502.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.23909375000005,"end":522.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.6415937500001,"end":527.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.0547187500001,"end":523.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.9153437500001,"end":524.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.8640937499999,"end":543.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.54096875,"end":554.2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請江署長參議員早"},{"start":10.317,"end":29.49,"text":"謝謝首先當然是要關心一下署長但身為也是家長全國的家長還有國人現在是蠻緊張的針對這個芬普尼的雞蛋事件所以我也拜讀了非常多署長以前擔任醫師的時候所撰寫的文章當時你有提到說超標不等於中毒"},{"start":30.35,"end":53.808,"text":"但是確實對孩童有超標的危險對民眾也有但是分譜你的超標不是急性中毒是慢性中毒至於長期攝入對人體會造成何種長期慢性的危害還需要長期的追蹤並且您建議要有病理學的研究政府單位應該要做好的是風險溝通平常就應該要有宣傳並且教育民眾有這樣子的基礎"},{"start":54.908,"end":70.437,"text":"那個時候當時的官員啊他是跟你講一模一樣的話就是超標不等於中毒那可能要吃幾顆才有風險等等的但是您以醫師的角度說同樣身為人民也是醫師"},{"start":71.678,"end":92.195,"text":"政府這樣子說會有點像是推卸責任可是這幾天你也知道說引起大家爭議的是你沒有辦法告訴大家要吃還是不要吃你只有說不安心就別吃吃100顆才有風險你會覺得對於你以前給政府的建議你現在是不是也應該要有所修正呢"},{"start":95.331,"end":104.343,"text":"委員這邊就由我來簡單跟委員做進一步說明那對於分譜你的雞蛋的部分那才源頭上面其實是在我們"},{"start":107.867,"end":133.366,"text":"長期以來我們的監測的計畫向下那監測現在是對於我們的蛋品 禽肉以及水產品的監測那監測的過程中呢我們蛋品呢從107年到現在已經監測4282次那我們看到的是這一次我們在11月4號的時候在彰化縣衛生局 彰化縣衛生局局長非常非常棒他們去監測之後"},{"start":135.034,"end":162.59,"text":"有相關的數據到中央續產所去因為這個檢驗的過程中其實就好像我們平常在醫院檢驗需要一點時間因為它就是常態檢驗整個續產所它幫忙協助了許多所以11月4號確立之後那也激動的我們就告訴他們要主動下架那我對於這個部分特別跟委員說明了因為要主動下架這件事情是要精準的我們的蛋品的需求量相當的大我們也高度的關注"},{"start":164.271,"end":178.224,"text":"部長提醒我們那我們針對中間檢驗之後只要是檢驗到什麼證據到哪我就應該要公佈到哪裡這個我們會一定會虛心的進一步的檢討那我們這次4號確立之後彰化圈衛生局做5號確定的當批的"},{"start":181.767,"end":208.129,"text":"能夠下架 接下來就是當場的讓它能夠控制下架所以到10月6號重新去抽這次的檢驗就短了因為緊急事件就要掛急診檢驗不可能那麼久所以就8號出來所以我們9號就確立的確是這個確立之後我們更擴大的是說針對I47這個場文雅畜牧場全面要讓它做下架 不能再吃了"},{"start":208.829,"end":233.697,"text":"那民眾還是會很擔心所以我就希望能夠有點擔心當然是有點學者的概念那個基因裡面 學U裡面還有我覺得當然是在急性中毒跟慢性中毒裡面讓民眾去了解那這個過程中或許這個傳達訊息有些可能要更精準一點點這我們可以繼續去努力但是讓大家能夠知道的是精準的去對於該下架的下架"},{"start":234.497,"end":246.89,"text":"精準的對於我們的打接範圍到哪裡為打接範圍因為一天的彈的使用量其實我們過去也經歷過差不多是2000萬顆所以我們也很擔心造成整合所以這次是比較精準的去說明先到這邊我們等一下繼續討論"},{"start":249.973,"end":273.678,"text":"因為大部分的家長他其實只是想知道說到什麼時候才可以安心什麼時候可以安心吃當然您剛講的都很好我也聽得懂但你要講人民可以聽得懂的語言嘛那下一個我就想問這是2017年您在農傳媒他有個專家會議所以你也是以專家的身份說你說政府應該慎重的處理國人實用到"},{"start":274.939,"end":299.297,"text":"這個雞蛋的慢性中毒問題並且進行甲狀腺的問題檢測搭配流行病學去看發病的比例如何那你剛有講當然中間有個時間差所以15萬已經流出了你現在也自己承認可能沒辦法全數收回現在只有回收了3萬那你有覺得當時你建議說處理國人慢性中毒的應變與機制"},{"start":301.178,"end":302.123,"text":"這個提議應該要啟動 應該要制定了嗎"},{"start":306.088,"end":331.386,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步說明我們針對說假如芬普尼持續存在我們要做這件事情那因為我們驗了從107到現在4282次沒有驗到一次表示它的風險它出現的次數並不是常態的那這一次呢其實也很感謝跨部會的合作之下那也有剪掉的介入能夠知道呢"},{"start":331.926,"end":359.289,"text":"是在鸡的羽毛身上经过皮肤等等或者着食之后进入体内所以这个很清楚的其实是在应该是喷洒的一个观察这样子的过程中它是突发的事件对于芬普尼来讲是突发事件所以我们会继续去针对突发事件的突发的进行的方式所以现在的话其实您是认为不用启动当时您身为专家的一个建议这个我也听懂了再来我们来看一下"},{"start":359.989,"end":378.666,"text":"你也寫過一篇文章叫做 台灣應該立即穿上防彈衣提出四個重點 本席也非常認同第一個我們討論完了 超標並非中毒第二個是提高檢查密度 追查超標原因四 加強用藥的管制 加強用藥管制這可能是農業部的事情"},{"start":379.346,"end":402.188,"text":"但您當時說政府應該要釐清其原因為何現階段要找出超標的原因安定民心接著要提高檢查密度你說短期內一定要提高檢驗的密度和強度阻斷流通的預防性下架您認為你這次沒有辦法全數回收回來算是一個成功的預防性下架嗎"},{"start":403.588,"end":427.458,"text":"這邊跟委員說明一下就如同部長提醒我們一定要檢驗到哪裡我們做到哪裡這一次它的特性是這樣部長提示一定要做到的是這個廠的蛋一顆都不能讓它佔進市場前面的蛋它的確有一段時間這裡面的使用我們確立之後能夠把它給擋住"},{"start":428.14,"end":442.339,"text":"那這邊稍微說明一下因為在畜牧場裡面那畜牧場動物用藥的管理辦法裡面如果檢驗沒有確立也沒有檢出它的蛋是有異常跟環境異常等等它們就要流動了"},{"start":443.561,"end":459.862,"text":"部長非常堅持的在跨部會的協議當下我們把它擋下來了所以只要我們確立8號 9號我們公佈之後我們就全力的把它擋住了所以我們看到今天的新聞還持續是擋住了幾十萬顆的彈在彈機場裡面"},{"start":461.464,"end":480.869,"text":"因為這樣的堅持我想我們國人針對特定彈廠裡面畜牧場裡面其實是另外跨部會的一個這邊我想跟你討論一件事情這也是一般人看到新聞會有點害怕的昨天檢調已經抓到了這是基農違法使用農藥嘛違法使用農藥"},{"start":481.989,"end":501.366,"text":"後來呢我們有接獲一些情資還有我們自己的實際上網事實上這個東西不會很難取得不會很難取得但是您在這個案件爆出來的第一天你就已經定調為個案現在大家想聽你說你是用什麼證據去定調這個東西是個案"},{"start":504.441,"end":527.376,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下因為抽樣是隨機的這麼多年來4282件的隨機鏈今年以前都是百分百合格所以random去找出來的是合格所以你要推論它是相對是合格所以你是推論它是個案推論那昨天看完新聞以後您會不會改變您的想法"},{"start":527.918,"end":552.956,"text":"我其實是支持委員的一些想法那對於這個東西其實我們要主決在源頭所以源頭在跨部會裡面的環境部跟農業部對於畜牧場內的權責我們其實是互相協作的食藥署衛福部在整個指導之下我們做的是什麼後市場端我們有風吹草動我們一定未來會修正在什麼關鍵的時刻"},{"start":555.317,"end":583.689,"text":"來讓國人最先能夠知道但是我們又要避免國人的恐慌那這是我們努力的需要一點智慧也讓我們一起共同去研議那你現在會不會覺得有可能它不是隔岸了這個看了昨天的新聞之後跟委員報告農方在農場裡面的管理有他們的智慧我其實沒有辦法替他們去回答這件事情但我個人覺得需要進一步研議它是必要的好 這邊這也是您"},{"start":584.329,"end":597.649,"text":"之前曾經說過的你教政府怎麼做事嘛你說在污染影響不明污染源不明的情況之下政府因為無法給出相關的保證所以應該誠實的向國人表明要先釐清檢驗那"},{"start":600.413,"end":624.805,"text":"我在這邊是具體想要求衛福部食藥署你們是不是去跟檢調還有農業部做溝通他們現在有可能查到上游就這個農藥的上游嘛那這個農藥是不是有可能也有給其他的基農這個是你們應該做橫向溝通的不是嗎這就是你當初寫的文章啊提高檢查密度啊追查真相啊"},{"start":625.578,"end":651.915,"text":"包委員 這個其實已經在做了 已經做了確定是已經在做 也在溝通所以這部分是已經在做了那你剛剛為什麼不說是不是個案剛剛我們就是一直在問你有沒有可能它不是個案啊因為目前看到是個案但是呢 我們絕對不放棄有可能是橫向更多的但是以我的目前的證據我只能說現在是個案所以最後有可能不是 對吧"},{"start":652.746,"end":665.985,"text":"這個部分其實農業部在努力的時候我們跨部會裡面他們研議最後一定我想會有答案來跟各位我希望可以如同您之前的文章一樣可以及時的去做預防性下架好嗎我們不希望再看到蛋回收不回來的狀況"},{"start":667.53,"end":684.601,"text":"這部分我們會特別盡力加強最後問部長最後一個問題而已早上在做提案說明的時候有跟部長講到說非常感謝昭緯安排這次的審查法案是因為真的跨黨派的委員都非常的關心以及藥物"},{"start":685.481,"end":706.937,"text":"今年有退出的明年可能有更多會退出的但唯一沒有提案也沒有表明立場的就是衛福部雖然您剛有做一個口頭報告但是我們還是要問如果我們開始做這個審查的話衛福部的立場到底會是什麼我們之前上禮拜已經經歷過了很多委員包括民進黨團都提出了外送員專法"},{"start":708.138,"end":716.817,"text":"那勞動部始終沒有版本但是在隨著我們審查的過程他們就說他們12月以前要端出版本所以我想知道衛福部的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":718.48,"end":745.386,"text":"這個跟委員報告就是說對於這種癌藥新藥的這個可敬性我們是現在有專款那按照這個需求在增加中啦那至於說要不要成立一個在這個癌症防治法裡面有一個癌藥基金多元基金這個事情因為剛剛我在報告裡面有特別提到按照這個政府財政紀律法的規定我們一定要去找到以國庫撥補我們目前是國庫在撥補我們要去找到"},{"start":746.867,"end":758.278,"text":"國庫撥補以外的裁員才有辦法新設基金你可以找啊你找你編我們一定OK啊我們繼續再找啦因為這個也要找裁員所以你的意思是說昭緯一邊審你會一邊跟昭緯做滾動性的溝通"},{"start":763.662,"end":782.116,"text":"我們一直都在溝通我跟趙偉一直在溝通因為趙偉一向就是很很在意的這個癌友的權益啦趙偉是我們後生會的交集人對對對他非常關心癌友所以我們一直都在各項的癌症議題上都有在討論好 謝謝趙偉謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長來 署長請為接下來請林月琴委員來做選答"},{"start":792.103,"end":792.124,"text":"好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}