{"error":false,"id":["165359"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165359,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165359","日期":"2025-11-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-20-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-13T10:02:41+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-13T10:14:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face88ad5f77fb05f1d7fa47f864c5dfb45a999b3dda738276807c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:02:41 - 10:14:59","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.13159375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.042843750000001,"end":5.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.09596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.53659375,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.789718750000006,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.84034375,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.69159375000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.54721875,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.20096875,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.34096875,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.57721875000001,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.74096875,"end":208.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.15784375,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.05221875,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.82409375,"end":217.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.02409375000002,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.67784375000002,"end":234.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.98159375,"end":244.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.77346875,"end":244.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.85346875000002,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.31721875000002,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.00659375000004,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.83346875,"end":274.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.86721875,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.27471875000003,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.93659375000004,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.75909375000003,"end":282.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.12034375,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.48534375,"end":354.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.97971875,"end":355.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.61659375000005,"end":360.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.98721875,"end":369.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.25159375000004,"end":373.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.54659375,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.56346875,"end":373.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.66034375000004,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.84596875,"end":373.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.30096875000004,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.16909375,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.04659375,"end":395.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.30346875000004,"end":390.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.13034375,"end":390.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.14721875000004,"end":390.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.47971875,"end":395.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.49659375000005,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.80034375,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.93034375,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.76971875000004,"end":403.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.02284375000005,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.89534375000005,"end":408.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.92909375000005,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.24971875,"end":422.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.20971875000004,"end":422.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.24346875000003,"end":422.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.58096875,"end":425.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.58034375000005,"end":458.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.75284375,"end":430.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.65784375000004,"end":444.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.66096875000005,"end":451.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.31471875000005,"end":452.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.52471875000003,"end":495.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.96346875,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.97159375,"end":462.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.01784375000005,"end":463.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":496.00409375000004,"end":497.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.93221875,"end":547.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.77159375,"end":499.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.87784375,"end":551.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.2822187500001,"end":553.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1553437499999,"end":565.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.4740937500001,"end":567.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7903437500001,"end":570.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.94596875,"end":570.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.96284375,"end":576.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6584687500001,"end":592.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.4922187500001,"end":585.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.2465937500001,"end":591.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.19159375,"end":607.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.8178437500001,"end":610.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.1128437500001,"end":610.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.99034375,"end":612.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0365937500001,"end":645.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.84971875,"end":622.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.00971875,"end":622.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.0009687500001,"end":625.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.4428437500001,"end":631.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.32659375,"end":652.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.1440937500001,"end":654.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.36346875,"end":663.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.72471875,"end":674.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.11534375,"end":677.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.78159375,"end":679.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.78971875,"end":694.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.43034375,"end":684.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.7622187500001,"end":710.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.68784375,"end":712.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":712.25721875,"end":717.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.92346875,"end":726.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.74971875,"end":719.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.8172187499999,"end":719.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.5672187499999,"end":726.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.85409375,"end":728.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.9553437500001,"end":727.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.61346875,"end":732.7097187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.37,"end":4.445,"text":"主席長跟勞動部李建宏次長請主席長 勞動部次長"},{"start":16.041,"end":37.187,"text":"委員好主席長好主席長我上一次的時候根據這個國庫調查的這個貧富差距的時候是從資產面的時候來就教於您過去30年那最後面收入20%的家庭其實財富不增反減那今天我想說從所得面所得面的部分特別把這個D4到D7的部分"},{"start":38.467,"end":63.243,"text":"這個中位數這個上下的比例的這個部分把它匡列出來你去看實質的成長率這10年而且是到2023的統計的部分它的這個成長比例都是在個位數而是最少的那相對而言D1 D2 D2 D3的部分的話因為有基本新知識的架構把它增高 撐起但是呢 D8 D9那因為高所得產業的這個紅利"},{"start":64.964,"end":91.709,"text":"那現階段的最大的問題就是D10到D7的部分要怎麼處理那過往政府所處理的大概是透過這個稅免的部分來稅減的部分來減少負擔但是最關鍵的部分應該還是在於中低這個增加收入吧否則的話這十年來他們所增加的這個部分只有到3到6%而且如果還在像CPI的話恐怕實質增加財富非常有限吧"},{"start":93.111,"end":116.803,"text":"它是事實上是差不多平均其實都是差不多4%數字應該沒有錯嘛這是來自於您嘛所以說這是一個很大的問題啊我是覺得從一個從一個現在今天我們要討論這個M化兩極化的社會的情況底下要怎麼面對怎麼處理就出現一個很大的問題最近當然政府有處理中小企業的部分的這個底稅的修法成效也都還沒出現嘛"},{"start":117.703,"end":140.981,"text":"那勞動部最近有一個這個雇主加薪企圖那個政策目標是想要幫本勞加薪嘛那個我請次長理事一下理事你這個增加移工的額度可以增加的部分那最多額度也是大概10%然後預估要4年才會大概有受惠的勞工朋友大概只有20萬嘛對不對對"},{"start":143.396,"end":164.689,"text":"这个案子这个利益是良善但是相对而言效果相对有限你也知道受雇者的比例相当高 政策如果是这样子的话我是不是有一个可能性因为我们就案基金其实过去长期以来一直受到相当程度的诟病然后经常出现的是重复补助或例行补助那也没有达到一定的效果"},{"start":165.149,"end":186.543,"text":"那救安基金的部分之前我在救教育貴部的時候就特別提到我再舉一個例子好了最近健保費有在收取一部分的保費去獎勵一些醫護人員提高薪資我請李次能不能回去了解一下也就是從收費過來的部分給從業人員多一點薪資然後防止他的流動率"},{"start":189.265,"end":213.284,"text":"增加這個就職的比例另外一個部分有沒有可能透過救安基金的方式來因為引進移工相關的這個費用當中來比照辦理提出這個政策的可能性市長你的看法你是說拿救安基金來做什麼就是類似像保費的部分來刺激鼓勵雇主來增加薪資的可能性"},{"start":215.12,"end":234.03,"text":"你說拿救安基金對 有沒有一個鼓勵的方式就比較保費的方式補助 雇主什麼用什麼方式都可以就是說至少你不要重複老是在補助一些特定團體例行性的團體把這個救安基金達到另一種薪資提升達到就業安定的目的"},{"start":235.17,"end":263.545,"text":"跟委員說明那個救援基金依照法律規定他是要協助以促進跟協助本國國民失業國民就業為主要目標那所以如果跟這個目標比較無關的話這個照現在的規定是有困難有一個方向上一個是促進就業嘛那防止離職嘛就是防止流動這種雙向的思考當中有沒有一個擴大解釋的可能是不是請理事回去思考一下好不好"},{"start":264.605,"end":274.649,"text":"只要能夠達到這個目標啦 好不好麻煩理事回去思考一下另外一個部分我想要請財政部跟這個衛福部兩位請衛福部 理事長"},{"start":281.826,"end":300.604,"text":"委員好部長剛剛在討論這一個有關於補充保費的部分補充保費的部分就我這邊相關的數據當中李次也在這邊就教因為最近爭議非常的大而且對一些純穀族跟小蜘族的部分相對剝削感"},{"start":302.606,"end":330.952,"text":"其實就這個衛福部當中的第二項當中就有提到說如果把這一千萬的天花板打開到五千萬的部分的話就可以增加六億的補充保費的來源事實上本席去了解一下這兩年補充保費的部分大概股利的部分其實已經有佔兩成但是就上市櫃的股息的發放去年一整年大概有2.3兆"},{"start":332.612,"end":353.734,"text":"外資的部分拿走8000法人的部分拿走5000大約約莫還有自然人的部分大概剩下一兆如果這一兆拿出來的話 憨不啷噹我們從這一兆拿到了這個2.11%就有200多億了 那個就打開了就可以Cover這個你在補充百貨來源那個市長這裡頭有什麼顧慮嗎"},{"start":356.67,"end":372.688,"text":"感謝委員對於這個議題的關心那我跟委員報告就是說這個議題我們現在補充寶貝我們現在目前是這個暫緩但是我們現在也跟財政部這邊在積極研議那剛剛委員剛所說的這個部分主要大概就是說就是把那個天花板那個部分把它打開"},{"start":375.189,"end":394.875,"text":"這個我們再來演繹也跟財政部這邊市長我再給你一個參考去年十大股東自然人的收入就一共拿了305億就這十個人就可以有6.4億的補充保護費如果最高收入的話一個家庭的股利大概是2900億就這一person的家庭而已只有2900億"},{"start":400.99,"end":425.544,"text":"就有50到60亿了 对不对你从这个今天我们讨论这个两极化的社会当中你就应该思考这个问题对不对 你怎么一直给小知足刚刚我一开始所PO的这个这个第4到第8的这群人当中一直找这群人给他去取得他的财富他当然相对不满你看他实质的所得也不过是个位数而已"},{"start":426.673,"end":451.962,"text":"这引起反弹相对的剥夺感就是从这边而来市长回去好好思考一下从这个角度来看而且还有一个角度可以看的是法人大股东有没有可能做一个对象这个部分你也请那个跟部长好好讨论一下好不好毕竟这个财政部科税比较有经验怎么用他会比较清楚好不好好好思考一下"},{"start":452.842,"end":478.63,"text":"不然M型社會就會一直持續發生就是你們這種政策搞成這樣子好 謝謝市長你稍等一下我再問一下部長這邊站那麼久不好意思 部長部長 這個補充保惠的部分我們現在我們在討論這個補充保惠我們就不免想到我們現在最大很大的一個收入的部分來源總共在明年度大概有760幾億就是房地合一稅的這個稅源"},{"start":480.35,"end":493.396,"text":"在房東合一稅的稅源當中目前為止就從上一次本席跟你質詢之後好不容易從百分之百都給長照現在有10%那明年是不是多10%就兩成 對不對"},{"start":496.124,"end":513.067,"text":"住宅的部分住宅的部分就變兩層那住宅的部分現在社會住宅已經卡關八個月原因在什麼原因在說經費不足即便變了兩層明年也大概是191億而已一棟社會住宅補助的10億沒有算多了所以挺多大概20棟"},{"start":514.329,"end":540.544,"text":"这么情况底下你在20%老实讲现在的社会住宅的部分20%相对还是比较低就从住宅基金你本来的钱就来自于房地产你还只有两成这个部分请部长回去思考一下为什么做这样的思考呢也跟次长有相关次长你看最几年的长照制度长照预算从300多亿到800多亿审计部多次指出质询率不佳"},{"start":541.184,"end":570.669,"text":"特別在112年113年有23項執行率不到一半或不到八成啊連民間團體都出來講為了衝執行率又衝KPI很多補助都太過於腐爛了就是錢太多嘛錢太多你應該這個把錢挪在有需要的地方嘛就你現在他已經沒有那個執行能量了沒有那個量能你一直給他他當然會變成這種結果啊那個部長這是你們兩部的事情啊是要處理一下好不好"},{"start":571.312,"end":591.054,"text":"我們也會邀同內政部一起來討論做一個怎麼樣的對啊 找內政部來嘛內政部也是很困擾另外還有那個李次我再問你一下國民年金的部分一直強調現在4049的低標其實是不夠是希望提到8000提到8000的部分也可以有助於今天N型社化形成的結果嘛"},{"start":591.694,"end":607.049,"text":"市長我想聽聽您的看法非常感謝委員對於我們國民年金的受保人的一利益的關心為本部我們覺得就是說應該要朝向支持我們的整個保障國民的退休福祉我想8000其實老實說也是"},{"start":607.89,"end":634.237,"text":"老實說也恐怕也不太夠啦但是我們應該朝這個目標是不夠如果再加上還有其他的這個己夫的話加總起來的話比較有可能接近最低生活費而已啦沒錯啦 也降低我們老人貧窮一般的先是在一萬五一萬六對不對所以說這個部分真的需要調啦好不好市長請衛福部回去慎重思考最後一個問題想要問一下那個市長請回我最後一個問題想要問一下那個部長財政部長部長"},{"start":636.238,"end":662.977,"text":"那个最近有在谈到我们财政部所属公股银行底下的这一些头性诊病的问题我是第一个要提醒一下那个劳工权益要顾好那第二个的部分呢有一些部分的公股银行有在做分行的这个诊病对不对尤其是海外的部分有一条街都比西班牙还多这个我都举过例子但最后我本席要提醒一下其实你们海外分行更多啦"},{"start":663.797,"end":669.223,"text":"海外分行出現問題的更多我跟你夯不啷噹算起來總共你這些分行這八大公股銀行加起來大概100從紙行分行加起來134間需要整頓的搞不好是這邊那個部長你要不要回去思考一下"},{"start":679.855,"end":709.045,"text":"沒有錯 現在有關海外分行的部分因為海外分行主要是服務我們的台商嘛我們的僑胞然後那需要不要做調整隨著產業的一些移動我們會做一些調整然後我們想各個金控還有銀行也都在做這方面的事昨天我才問過金管會金管會在中國的曝險也從46%降到15%一整 足足少了20幾%這樣曝險越高就是業務量一直萎縮的情況底下海外分行的據點的重要性就相對的減少嘛"},{"start":709.705,"end":732.421,"text":"是不是是不是一同思考一下好不好公股航庫的其實曝險的比例更低啊對 更低啊所以說呢 海外航庫需要實質要設的可能性再加上現在網路 電子支付越來越盛行實體銀行就更不需要的情況底下應該慎重思考一下好不好是的好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝國務委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}