{"error":false,"id":["165360"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165360,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165360","日期":"2025-11-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-13T10:02:14+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-13T10:19:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face90a808d1e2c1d1bf8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda738276800385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:02:14 - 10:19:02","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.68846875,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.72596875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":8.232218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.535343750000003,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.41284375,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.864093750000002,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.28534375,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.439093750000005,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.66971875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.63909375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.297218750000006,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.229093750000004,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.460968750000006,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.84909375,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.86596875,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.034093750000004,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.70846875000001,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.43284375,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.44909375,"end":79.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.68096875,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.12284375,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.64971875,"end":91.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.44596875,"end":98.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.64221875000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.45221875,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.74284375,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.81034375,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.89471875000001,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.92846875000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.07596875,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.85721875000002,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.55971875,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.75346875,"end":158.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.91346875000002,"end":168.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.08096875,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.41409375,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.52971875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.82034375,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.16534375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.85284375,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.01659375000003,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.65346875,"end":205.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.81721875000002,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.37409375000001,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.74909375000001,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.18159375000002,"end":275.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.61659375,"end":286.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.73284375000003,"end":339.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.89346875,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.49971875,"end":348.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.98909375,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.57471875000005,"end":358.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.28284375000004,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.94096875,"end":360.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.34596875,"end":365.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.81784375,"end":366.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.87659375000004,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.06221875,"end":367.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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是不是請我們 石部長林委員長部長這個數萬顆芬普尼雞蛋流入市面那你們定調說本起事件是散發個案不會擴大到百分之百的稽查這個市售所有的雞蛋那你們判斷為個案的依據是什麼"},{"start":34.591,"end":45.966,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個過去這七年間其實每年都是列為例行性的後市場的檢驗你們例行性的後市場檢驗的計畫叫什麼名稱"},{"start":51.343,"end":59.226,"text":"這個委員這邊跟您進一步報告我們叫做勤訓隨產品藥物殘留監測計畫這個計畫已經執行幾年了我們從107年到現在107年報告整顧的數量在整體讓委員瞭解107年到114年11月12號107年之前有沒有監測計畫 後市場"},{"start":79.873,"end":94.746,"text":"尤其社會市場監測計畫一直都有我們特別是說含有分普尼的監測裡面的這些殘留所以107年以前沒有監測嗎以前也有監測 也有107年監測的時候因為這是分普尼所以特別把分普尼的監測"},{"start":95.967,"end":114.915,"text":"納進去有4282件每一年大概是400件到800件近年來 像去年是561件所以1107到113年總共有的件數裡面大概合格率是百分之百那今年度是461件 有一件是違規的"},{"start":117.39,"end":138.36,"text":"你們是說過去的抽測百分之百都合格所以你們判斷這是一個個案那署長你回覆說你們抽驗一路走來都是用科學randomizerandom的方法去抽驗出來的結果所以你不會把它變成百分之百的這個抽查"},{"start":139.901,"end":154.336,"text":"因為事實上你們用隨機抽樣去抽都沒問題嘛你是這樣講的嘛所以這件事情如果變成百分之百去抽查這件事情在科學上其實是對不起科學"},{"start":155.919,"end":182.006,"text":"對不起科學 你的意思是這樣子嗎不科學的嗎不是不對不起科學跟委員報告一下就是說按照現在科學的因為按照現在的基準證據這樣子的抽查的你認為全面抽查是不科學的所以能夠確保風險被控制就好了那我現在要討論就是不是這個樣子那我現在問你是說上一次的芬普尼事件是什麼時候"},{"start":183.567,"end":204.168,"text":"上次是106年代那一次的106年對106年他的發生的來龍去脈你清楚嗎那一次的整個調查因為當初是以學者的身份大概有一些些略知一二不是那麼完全清楚但是你知道監察院有調查報告嗎監察院"},{"start":207.426,"end":224.255,"text":"我沒有特別看過那份報告 但我知道監察院有特別講好 那我就跟你講 我現在以下所講的全部都是來自於監察院的講法好了我先講背景 2017年歐洲很多個國家 包括德國 比利時 荷蘭 歐盟發現28個會員國裡面有26個國家 雞蛋受到芬普尼的污染"},{"start":229.918,"end":249.952,"text":"然後呢後來擴散到發現美國俄羅斯南非南韓瑞士香港等等然後發現很多國家連亞洲國家都有了那所以食藥署跟農委會也開始進行監測了也監測了喔調查有沒有受到芬普尼污染然後呢"},{"start":251.226,"end":273.882,"text":"根據監察院發布的調查報告食藥署只抽驗了10件雞蛋樣品而且都是在超市裡面賣場販售的盒裝雞蛋那沒有包含傳統市場也沒有包含零售廠商所以食藥署在2017年的7月8月18號發布新聞"},{"start":275.763,"end":286.043,"text":"宣稱市售蛋品沒有檢出分譜尼告訴大家雞蛋都很安全 這是8月18號的新聞結果隔了兩天 因為只抽查了10件嘛"},{"start":288.013,"end":313.384,"text":"農委會就發現國內蛋機有分譜尼這個污染後續更擴大檢驗發現有44件不合格樣品顯示當時食藥署最初的抽驗過於草率所以後來發現這大問題是去抽查然後不合格率這麼高以後他就開始抽查全國的蛋廠然後8月25號一個禮拜後公佈結果"},{"start":315.205,"end":336.716,"text":"對污染場域的那個氧機場 氮機場進行了移動管制但是到9月14號仍然還有受污染的雞蛋流出農委會的全面抽檢還有後續處理沒有完全的圍堵住那署長 部長你聽清楚食藥署抽驗的件數過少"},{"start":339.998,"end":366.373,"text":"然後就發布說這個市面上雞蛋安全無虞請問你們這一次抽驗了幾件跟委員這邊報告這次其實我們抽的第一波其實是我們委託例行性的抽驗以外你們這個事件發生以後有沒有再去抽驗這個抽驗的時候當初是抽五件中了一件在這一家廠這個是例行性的抽驗對"},{"start":368.4,"end":386.195,"text":"那事發之後然後大家都發現這家廠有問題你在後市場裡面有沒有再去抽過至少抽個看看其他廠有沒有其他問題因為你也是隨機抽的嘛然後文雅之後有沒有在後市場再抽其他的"},{"start":386.835,"end":406.554,"text":"我們這個抽菸其實持續在進行當中以今年的 你知道在2017年發生的時候其實他們在也有例行性的抽菸2017年之前 不是你講你的計畫2018年開始但2017 2016 2015其實都有後市場各種食品安全的抽菸也都有"},{"start":407.52,"end":422.485,"text":"但整個事件發生以後當國家採取這個這個安全措施的時候當時2017年食藥署也在再去抽驗例行性的抽驗之後有再去抽驗抽了10次然後就說安全無虞"},{"start":424.346,"end":440.84,"text":"所以後來 這邊跟委員稍微一點點的報告其實我們已經確定在養雞場內部的畜牧場內部的所以我們跨部會裡面提到的是在所有還沒有出來之前就要驗我們後市場我們會積極的持續的來去做不是啦"},{"start":441.54,"end":466.442,"text":"還沒出來以前要驗這個是源頭把關還沒有出來以前要驗是農業部的責任跟你無關但我現在問你是當整個事件發生以後你到底有沒有去針對市面上到底這個問題是不是一個個案還是有沒有比較大的嚴重的擴散你有沒有進行任何的後市場抽驗"},{"start":468.616,"end":490.2,"text":"跟委員報告一下我剛才提到的是整體的107年的時候呢其實是沒有長期先前的抽驗可是我們現在的陣地我現在都不管你這個啦我現在告訴你我現在要告訴你是你回答我你整個事情發生以後你有沒有做出任何的後市場再抽驗一次"},{"start":492.287,"end":513.744,"text":"我們今年度齁 已經整個驗了461件所以就今年度所以我們在這個樣子的情形之下呢其實是應該是精準的知道是哪裡那在畜牧場端我們其實是持續在跨部會裡面就合作針對這部分那我再把監察院當時的報告再講一次齁"},{"start":515.585,"end":524.467,"text":"當時發生以後去抽驗的實踐然後被認為說這個就宣稱安全無虞監察院約許的時候副署長林金富告知統計學上原則採樣至少要30件這個是發生事情發生之後然後去抽驗的然後呢第一波檢驗完以後三個部會決議要由農委會主政從源頭全面檢測所以"},{"start":545.732,"end":560.856,"text":"這個食藥署就不再去做這個抽驗但是監察院認為重點就是當時為什麼實踐以後就作為依據對外宣布結果實有不當在那時候呢如果看一下當年的新聞一定會覺得如果"},{"start":565.356,"end":588.104,"text":"當時農委會就組了跨部會小組決議啟動24小時全台大抽檢然後一共有15個機場驗出分譜尼殘留然後抽檢數量達到1451件當時的新聞如果食藥署你現在署長你去看你一定覺得說怎麼一點也不科學還驗到這個1000多件"},{"start":590.205,"end":594.04,"text":"但是如果當年沒有全台大抽檢 抽檢了一千多件"},{"start":595.728,"end":621.919,"text":"他就沒有後來後續的比較完善的管理的機制那我現在要告訴你說你認為我們例行性的檢查今年已經檢了幾百件了應該是沒問題了然後你要告訴大家說一天要吃這個100顆才會急性中毒然後每天吃7到8顆才會慢性中毒所以理論上安人民的心是對的但是不能夠只是這樣子講"},{"start":623.28,"end":645.025,"text":"你應該不要再用學者的身份把自己學者的身份拋棄掉不要再高舉著這部科學的說法拒絕更多的管制的手段因為十安五環最重要的上游的這個源頭管制管控的項目源頭的管控重建生產管理加強查驗"},{"start":646.725,"end":653.669,"text":"這都是食藥署責務判斷最該執行的項目然後你動不動就說你叫我再去檢測更擴大檢測這不科學然後你們只針對現在的文雅牧場單一個案加強管理人家會覺得說這個真的是安全的嗎人家也會質疑你說這是不是駝鳥心態那還有媒體指出"},{"start":672.202,"end":696.36,"text":"你們試圖以歷年抽驗4000多例只有一次出問題來化解疑慮然後你剛剛我講的你要吃100多顆才能會急性中毒所以另外一個不具名的毒物專家他們知道署長是毒物專家他講說啊民眾擔心食安的議題不是只有你講科不科學科學的理論抽驗還需要風險溝通"},{"start":699.642,"end":718.367,"text":"所以風險的溝通這一件事情很重要然後盡快的釐清真相才能安定民心嘛而不是說你看你們歷次發生這種事件的時候都便以形式然後屢屢被後續發生的案例打臉打到臉都腫了打到臉都紅了"},{"start":720.942,"end":744.062,"text":"這個過去都是這樣子好那我現在告訴你你認為今年都已經檢驗了幾百件了就最近有問題所以你認為都沒問題了最好如此喔我是認為說你說的最好如此如果還有其他的樣品被其他地方政府抽檢出來那恐怕臉還會更腫"},{"start":745.123,"end":771.706,"text":"所以當時2017年就抽了全抽 抽了1000多批你這個案例你要清楚報告委員報告委員的提醒我謹記在心但是我特別提一下所有的風險溝通其實風險溝通來自風險分析因為你關心我現在是全民關心一定要風險評估Risk Assessment為基礎所以我們會有這麼大的底氣"},{"start":772.987,"end":786.251,"text":"去相信希望能夠去穩定是一個單一的個案以外我們也會積極的去了解因為後續是不是有你們話都不要講得太早部長 一開始你說該事件不是飼料殘留飼養過程中的添加 應該是環境汙染現在證明 對啦 也是環境汙染因為被一送法辦了人家認為是直接分譜你就噴在機織上面啦對 目前的證據是這樣"},{"start":801.015,"end":809.377,"text":"你們在機織上面叫做環境污染嗎我想這部分應該農業部會積極的去懲處跟你們無關所以你可以這樣講所以我要跟你講話不要講太快你們也不是你們業務所管所以你不要去講說應該是環境污染不是飼料殘留不是添加當然不能添加當然不可能是飼料殘留因為咱都知道隔子農機的問題是什麼隔子農機的飼養環境是什麼"},{"start":828.041,"end":839.317,"text":"而他真的就是需要因為葛齒龍雞他能夠生活的環境多大你知道嗎一隻雞終其一生他的一輩子一隻蛋雞他能夠生存的空間有多大你知道嗎比這一張還要小"},{"start":843.848,"end":871.419,"text":"雞隻連要清羽毛連要清除牠身上的寄生蟲都沒有辦法連轉身都沒有辦法中期牠的一生只能吃飼料下蛋而牠的大便就直接在下面骯髒的大便堆了多高就是在那裡蟲業的養殖的人員年紀有多高如果你去看你就知道你不訝異為什麼他們一直使用分譜尼"},{"start":872.81,"end":892.54,"text":"然後為什麼只有環境傾銷還不夠因為雞隻上面很多跳蚤害蟲一走到要死去嘛所以雞都不健康嘛然後所以才會直接噴在上面但是我告訴你全台灣蛋90%都是格子龍雞難道只有一個文雅牧場會這樣子做嗎"},{"start":894.795,"end":913.636,"text":"你相信只有文雅牧場會這麼的離譜嗎老實說我們不知道但是我們相信你還是要科學的方法但科學不是你講說要100顆蛋才會急性中毒我們要的食品安全標準絕對不是急性中毒"},{"start":914.497,"end":933.056,"text":"我們要的食品安全的標準我已經跟你講過也不是說要不會慢性中毒我們為什麼要你來跟我們講說不會慢性中毒不會急性中毒我們要的是你好好的管源頭的管而且政府的管是真的有用有效的"},{"start":934.841,"end":951.693,"text":"而不是你在用學者身份說學院在抽查不科學這樣的講法都不是溝通風險的溝通不是這樣子我一定悉心的去檢討我們的食農教育都告訴我們食品是怎麼來的"},{"start":952.938,"end":976.548,"text":"如果我們知道我們的食物你的格子籠雞的雞蛋的飼養環境是那樣子那麼你就不會覺得很安心所以這是一個機會教育也是一個食品安全教育也是一個農食農教育你要去了解格子籠雞場是怎麼養雞的你就會知道風險高還是低"},{"start":978.784,"end":1006.555,"text":"林委員把相關意見跟農業部做進一步的協調溝通 謝謝委員這個姿態也很重要就不要動不動用學者的姿態然後認為我們閱聽人 認為立委認為人民 認為一般的人都不科學 只有你最科學 是這樣子報告委員 我們會繼續查下去的查到哪裡 我們就驗到哪裡謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝林委員接下來請邱政軍委員來做詢問"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}