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10:28:01","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.160343750000003,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.75784375,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.76471875,"end":31.620968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.840343750000002,"end":32.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.00471875,"end":34.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.392843750000004,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.54409375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.27596875,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.43971875000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.63784375,"end":113.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.71784375,"end":118.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.30846875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.36721875,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.30346875000001,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.10846875000001,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.37284375000002,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.10159375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.72159375,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.59096875,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.42096875000001,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.19659375,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.65909375,"end":221.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.05034375000002,"end":263.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.00284375,"end":234.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.39096875,"end":234.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.49534375000002,"end":241.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.14159375,"end":265.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.53784375000004,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.81971875,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.24909375000004,"end":283.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.08784375,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.18471875,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.62346875000003,"end":285.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.97784375000003,"end":289.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.10846875000004,"end":287.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.52159375,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.80159375,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.33096875,"end":407.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.73096875000005,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.74784375,"end":423.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.86034375,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.49534375,"end":431.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.33909375,"end":446.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.66221875,"end":445.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.03721875,"end":446.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.08784375000005,"end":446.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.23971875,"end":451.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.04909375000005,"end":451.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.58471875000004,"end":452.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.73659375000005,"end":453.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.59721875,"end":479.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.42284375,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.51534375000006,"end":464.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.71784375000004,"end":465.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.61471875,"end":501.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.63534375,"end":483.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.78596875000005,"end":488.54534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請財政部長 請主席長謝謝 主席長 部長 兩位早安對於《財化法》的修正民進黨團提出來的《戰刑條例》我看到目前為止"},{"start":22.85,"end":34.192,"text":"我的看法是康他人之慨用社福為名對地方進行財政上的鬥爭但是我更遺憾的是"},{"start":35.598,"end":61.777,"text":"部長主席長你們都非常清楚知道統籌稅款是地方政府的稅客收入從第8條我們收入為國稅之後第8條我們垂直分配完之後中央留中央的按照比例地方留地方的地方即便分配不完他還是屬於該分配給地方的稅客收入依法有據"},{"start":64.571,"end":83.18,"text":"部長我有沒有說錯我到目前我有沒有說錯分配到地方按照公視分配完之後分配即便分配不完他還要是地方的稅收對不對地方應該分配的地方課稅收入我們的報告裡面說他基本性質上是屬於統籌稅款"},{"start":85.121,"end":110.874,"text":"統籌稅款 對 但中央分配中央按照公示第8條隨時分配完之後中央統籌分配給地方或分配給地方各縣市然後再水平分配再來分所以你們才會有在今年8月27號你們開完會之後你們說這還是屬於地方政府的裁員中央不能挪作他用財政部進一步表示白紙黑字寫在這裡"},{"start":112.659,"end":132.747,"text":"我沒說錯 但今天還是沒有錯嘛但是我更遺憾的是你們兩位都是從基層公務員幹上來的不管各政黨對於各樣事物有不同的意見你們按照道理 你應該是依法告訴他們"},{"start":134.437,"end":145.577,"text":"法源的依據在哪裡但是我更遺憾的是你剛剛既然知道財政部既然有說這還是屬於地方的稅款你怎麼只能說中央立場尊重"},{"start":147.469,"end":176.608,"text":"你應該依法說明我再次強調因為我今天好幾個議題要問不管中央要照顧長輩的生活輔助或者是做勞退的獎勵或者甚至對婦幼的照顧我都支持都非常好但是這屬於中央要做這屬於中央全國一致性的事務中央自己來做用自己的錢你要用那個稅計剩餘也好你要用什麼中央的錢我都沒有意見"},{"start":177.569,"end":191.8,"text":"但是如果只屬於中央的事務那請你們用中央的錢來做不要慷他人之慨這是我要再一次強調的中央跟地方直到現在包括一直在喊市權要轉移到現在才劃法暫時不做"},{"start":192.961,"end":217.174,"text":"天天在想辦法鬥地方所以我只想說主席長跟部長你們曾其林你們按照公務員來說你們應該是依法行政不管黨團各政黨有什麼樣的失誤如果依法無據或指責罪你們應該告訴他們哪裡不對你不要風往哪裡倒你就往哪裡倒這是我要提醒你的地方那第二點兩位請我請國發會副主委時間先暫停請國發會高副主委"},{"start":227.079,"end":245.433,"text":"副主委我們今天討論是經濟成長對於整個整理國家的財務分配的影響關稅戰的關係我們本來一開始說今年經濟成長保三有點困難但是我們今年AI還是不錯第三季可以達到7.64全年更可以保五破六"},{"start":246.754,"end":270.829,"text":"我有看到幾個數據包括我們今年在台灣破百萬美元的人大概超過75萬人在全球排名也是第15名足跡處也說明年GDP可能破4萬美金對於目前的經濟態勢包括在貧富上的分配這樣的說法副主委你的看法是什麼"},{"start":271.877,"end":282.641,"text":"我想大家都知道其實我們今年的經濟成長非常好那當然是跟AI的創新運用發展對 你直接回答我就是所有全民的經濟共享這樣的成績"},{"start":284.164,"end":308.806,"text":"大家有感嗎其實我想落差會不會很大基本上就是我們可以發現當然就是AI的發展會比傳產來得好然後高所得的人的所得的增加的確是比一些中金所得增加會高所以在美國關稅戰之後其實財務分配恐怕會更不平均AI好 好的人好在金字塔頂端那個落差非常大我有幾個數據"},{"start":309.727,"end":330.504,"text":"包括我們今年的民間消費實質成長已經連續兩年低於1%第三季也只有0.92%還是低於1%的水準也就是說過去幾年雖然財富的成長但是讓多數但是是不是多數民眾有感我打了一個問號包括這幾年我們最高的113年家庭的收支調查當中"},{"start":331.425,"end":359.931,"text":"全国最高的20%家户的平均收支是235万但是最低标的20%只有38.4万差距有6倍之多所以包括我们看到经常性的薪资有七成劳工他的领的经常性薪资是低于我们的平均薪资也就我们常在讲的我们国家常在说台湾说政府也好总统也好常在讲说我们经济成长数字非常漂亮但是"},{"start":360.831,"end":380.613,"text":"多數的七成勞工是感受不到的因為七成勞工他領的薪水是低於平均薪資的好那我的重點問題就來了副主委我們之前有提個AI產業計畫包容性的成長四年包括美國的橋水的基金會創辦人也提到就是說提到美國的一個現象就是說"},{"start":380.993,"end":406.991,"text":"美国因为AI的发展贫富差距会越来越大因为AI用的人少七成劳工未来工作在哪里可能不知道所以我们提了一个国家发展计划对于未来如何确保AI科技的发展红利未来对于中低技术的劳工怎么去做这一块的处理这是我第一个问题那对于产业人力再造新制结构的改变你们后续要怎么做处理"},{"start":408.249,"end":426.366,"text":"我想AI的發展是國際的趨勢很多國家其實面對的跟我們問題也非常的類似我想就政府來說其實是不是貧富差距未來發展下去只會越來越大均衡台灣沒有同意未來AI的發展貧富差距會越來越大因為"},{"start":427.367,"end":443.696,"text":"其實AI能做的就是固定那一些人那些人力所以我們AI的新十大建設裡面其實最重要的是創新運用裡面要百工百業富能也就是說不只我們只有一個護國神山我們要有護國群山也就是我們會讓中小微體驗但是實際的動作是什麼我們看到美國現在的狀況就是預估未來狀況其實是貧富差距越來越大"},{"start":452.608,"end":468.696,"text":"怎麼辦我想第一個我們一定要讓所有的產業不只是只有半導體跟伺服器相關產業起來我們其他的傳產還有一些服務業也要跟著起來傳產都快活不下去了然後第二個我們還是要其實我們有一些政策性的譬如說我們內需產業包括我們的觀光還有我們的這些金融產業我們也相對有一些措施"},{"start":479.122,"end":493.833,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該去做更精準的研標政府應該有更多的工具包括未來中低階層的技術勞工怎麼辦下一波在AI產業發展之後這些人怎麼辦這些才是經濟中弱勢的弱勢時間先暫停你請回我要請你用書面再更精準的回應我主席我想邀請衛福部的政次跟勞動部的政次請勞動部李政次衛福部李政次"},{"start":509.161,"end":530.391,"text":"主席 你時間一直在跑好 那再還給立委員3秒鐘拜託耶 何主任好兩位政策我關注到明年國民年金保費要上調就是說我們現在因為通膨CPI已經到達6.79%所以每一年的我們保費的金額會從43塊漲到84塊"},{"start":533.112,"end":561.553,"text":"那這樣的保費的漲幅會有270萬人受影響但是我要提醒兩位的就是說我們現在根據以前舊的數據我現在有的手邊有的我們有最新的數據喔等一下我也要請你們提供新的數據就是說國民年金的保費台灣這樣就有100萬人沒有繳這個保費那他沒有繳保費有很多不同的原因是經濟還有各方面的原因我不清楚你們應該有更清楚的言調"},{"start":562.974,"end":580.681,"text":"在337萬台灣被保險人當中有240萬人有很多不同的因素他領國民年金包括家庭主婦或主夫不同的因素或要照顧長照家庭的人士所以他就開始請你國民年金那這個保費的"},{"start":583.162,"end":593.227,"text":"漲幅我有幾個問題要請教就是說我們今年國民年金的2024金算報告當中我們國民年金的潛藏負債是多達6320億相較於2023年我們是減少了797億"},{"start":600.51,"end":629.77,"text":"所以我們今年比去年又減少了負債的狀況減少了所以我有幾個問題要請教就是說我們長國民年金的保費它的必要性跟急迫性是不是需要今年處理那你們有沒有評估過我目前我舊的數據有台灣有一百萬人沒有繳首期的保費如果保費再漲會不會有更多人繳不起那這些人數字大概有多少因為大家都知道國民年金影響是老人的經濟生活安全"},{"start":630.63,"end":652.68,"text":"辛苦的人中低收入戶 家都沒戶買便當都買不起 三餐都吃不飽他怎麼有錢去繳這個保費 這是我的問題所以我兩個問題 今年有沒有漲的必要性跟急迫性目前我舊的數據有100萬人連首期都繳不起這個漲幅之後 會不會有更多人繳不起"},{"start":653.32,"end":680.142,"text":"或不願意繳你們有沒有做過精準的評估那另外繳保費你們有沒有跟NGO團體做過溝通因為NGO團體就在講說繳不起的人更繳不起你請回應我非常感謝林先生委員對這個問題的關心陳副委員剛剛所說的國民年金確實是沒有參加其他所有職業別的一個民眾所以這裡面主要有三類一個當然就是說無一定雇主還有另外就是所謂家庭主婦或主婦另外就是學生主"},{"start":680.302,"end":694.638,"text":"你直接回應 我不想再用別人的時間我想重點現在是這樣現在目前這個部分我們在調的部分其實是根據國民年金法它裡面還有一個CPI的部分所以我剛剛問說有沒有必要因為我看到新聞你們說今年要漲"},{"start":695.439,"end":710.384,"text":"我擔心的是長不長是你們做政治判斷跟決定但去年跟今年的負債今年沒有去年負債的那麼高所以有沒有長的必要性跟急迫性然後另外我的問題是長了之後會不會有更多人繳不起保費"},{"start":711.204,"end":734.472,"text":"是 包委 那個我們現在目前這個部分當然有做一些相關的評估啦那這個其實 你有沒有擔心有更多人繳不起保費那你有沒有跟之前決定我從新聞上看到要繳保費你們有沒有跟NGO團體溝通過就是有NGO的那個團體這裡邊我們都有做相關的討論他們支持嗎那我們現在當然就是各方的一些我們現在都有一些各方的一些意見當然我們都會來評估嘛"},{"start":737.256,"end":752.367,"text":"他們不支持所以有沒有繳的必要性跟急迫性我希望你們評估清楚會不會有更多弱勢團體繳不起保費那就失去國民年金當時設立的意義現在台灣有一百萬人連收起保費都繳不起"},{"start":752.907,"end":766.031,"text":"以上就是今天講貧富差距我講說AI的發展未來如果政府沒有更多的工具去保障基層技術勞工台灣有更多人生活的會更困苦貧富差距只會越來越大謝謝好 感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝李委員接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員那等一下在本席質詢結束之後我們休息十分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}