{"error":false,"id":["165379"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165379,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165379","日期":"2025-11-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-35-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-13T10:39:31+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-13T10:51:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face409237c517032fe05cb08f7d303ca8f4999b3dda73827680575f0c0cec024c425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:39:31 - 10:51:02","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍編現比提升之具體方案及因應作法」，並備質詢。（11月12日及13日二天一次會））","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.73096875,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.76471875,"end":3.4734687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.039093750000003,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.30846875,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.98346875,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.58221875,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.59909375,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.53846875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.97159375000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.55159375000001,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.40284375000002,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.85846875000001,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.61721875,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.49846875,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.58159375,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.47034375,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.65034375000002,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.75971875000002,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.09971875000002,"end":213.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.54596875000001,"end":216.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.58784375000002,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.47659375,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.38659375,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.02534375000002,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.66659375,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.84784375000004,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.29721875,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.74284375,"end":306.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.93659375000004,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.77096875,"end":330.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.17346875000004,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.37909375000004,"end":342.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.67346875000004,"end":345.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.73221875,"end":352.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.24159375000005,"end":356.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.12284375,"end":364.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.53096875,"end":369.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.99846875000003,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.29784375,"end":377.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.80721875,"end":379.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.79846875000004,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.20409375,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.89971875000003,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.50284375,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.80221875,"end":424.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.01096875,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.51159375000003,"end":442.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.66221875,"end":445.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.91909375,"end":481.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.88409375000003,"end":493.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.71409375,"end":489.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.35471875,"end":496.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.57784375000006,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.05846875000003,"end":504.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.08284375000005,"end":512.9465937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.17096875000004,"end":509.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9465937499999,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":518.48159375,"end":521.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6415937500001,"end":523.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.7509687500001,"end":530.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.04096875,"end":548.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.0490937500001,"end":533.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.46596875,"end":537.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.83971875,"end":549.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.85659375,"end":553.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.68721875,"end":555.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.15096875,"end":557.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.72471875,"end":570.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.09784375,"end":578.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.92784375,"end":584.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.15096875,"end":582.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.9184687500001,"end":592.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.03159375,"end":591.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.46596875,"end":604.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.22909375,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.2153437500001,"end":602.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.3584687499999,"end":625.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.8403437500001,"end":631.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":630.12659375,"end":634.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.8815937500001,"end":654.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.28159375,"end":637.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.8972187500001,"end":640.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.1672187500001,"end":640.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.9934687500001,"end":645.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.02721875,"end":645.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.31409375,"end":645.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.40659375,"end":647.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.65096875,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":651.4397187500001,"end":651.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.6965937500001,"end":656.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.29534375,"end":658.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.1684687500001,"end":660.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.6828437500001,"end":662.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.15096875,"end":671.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":670.81221875,"end":683.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.03159375,"end":671.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.60534375,"end":672.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.0522187500001,"end":676.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.80284375,"end":678.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.23284375,"end":679.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.2665937500001,"end":679.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.16909375,"end":691.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":684.1940937500001,"end":684.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":689.91471875,"end":689.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":689.9653437500001,"end":690.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":690.9272187500001,"end":691.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":691.28159375,"end":691.41659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.569,"end":26.388,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請顧立雄部長部長好那首先今天大家很關心的是這個國軍邊線比較如何提升以及因應的方法那我們呢今天在這個報告裡面我看到一個很奇怪的事情我不曉得這個部長您有看過今天你們自己發的報告嗎"},{"start":29.677,"end":44.974,"text":"是 請委員指教我就先問你有沒有看過嘛有吧就你們今天發給我們的報告你自己有先看過是有喔好那因為我要問就是在裡面你們在這個全軍人力概況當中你寫到呢"},{"start":46.616,"end":74.355,"text":"114年之今那全軍的邊線比是79.2%那其中呢志願役佔了76.9%一年期的義務役佔2.3%但是呢你這種寫法是混用了這個邊線比跟人員組成比例的兩種不同的概念我想要請問一下如果我們單就志願役的邊線比答案是多少"},{"start":76.927,"end":105.019,"text":"跟委員報的76.9就目前志願役的官士兵邊線比是76.9對不對你的這個總基數是全軍的邊線比其中志願役佔76.9%是那我只我想要問的問題是那你只看到的如果我們在現有人員中齁那這個只有我們看志願役的比例你先撇除義務役的部分因為義務役他來了又走來了又走嘛那"},{"start":105.359,"end":129.486,"text":"你只看志願役的部分他的工作裡面他的邊線比是多少我們要知道的是這個因為這些部隊裡面的人他才是我們長留久用那可能20年不會離開的你不要把志願役的數據跟我們義務役的數據放在一起那我想要詢問如果用這樣子的比例去算的話那數字是多少"},{"start":132.648,"end":157.677,"text":"剛剛蓮依已經有回答就是志願役的部分就是76.9好我給你看下一張你們真的都不要這樣子唬爛好不好這個呢立法院的預算中心報告裡面其實就很明確的寫了國軍志願役的邊線筆就是說部長我要跟你講你拿全部的然後把其中就是裝進了志願役跟義務役之後你得到的數字會是一個漂亮的"},{"start":158.516,"end":166.052,"text":"但是如果你把國軍志願役的軍官士官跟士兵分別的邊線筆所列出來的時候他是長這個樣子"},{"start":167.714,"end":186.297,"text":"我們從109年底我們可以看到我在這裡我只講最嚴重的最嚴重的士兵的等一下我們講士官士兵的部分士兵的部分你可以看到這個圖或許有一點點複雜你們仔細看一下士兵在109年底的時候給的這個數字是92.57到114年6月底的時候是63.35"},{"start":196.786,"end":203.713,"text":"好那我一個一個來軍官的部分109年底是88.68一路下滑到6月底是81.18士官的部分86.21下滑到78.19"},{"start":214.659,"end":234.638,"text":"所以總計來說以士兵的部分來講從109年到現在6月底的數據來說 驟降了將近30%這個是來自於立法院預算中心的報告也是向你們提出資料的索取之後得到的結果"},{"start":235.459,"end":250.74,"text":"所以我在講的是你們今天提供報告的時候的數據看起來很好但我們要問的是在志願役裡面軍官士官士兵分別的邊線比是多少因為他們的工作也是不一樣的"},{"start":252.062,"end":279.976,"text":"那每一個工作的階層它也有它相當的一個它的功能性的存在所以你把所有都換成撒尿牛丸的時候你看起來數據很漂亮但是當你把軍官士官士兵你分別去看的時候你看到從92.57一路下降到63.35這就是為什麼今天大家要討論邊線比的原因所以這部分我希望"},{"start":280.896,"end":293.273,"text":"可以去檢討不要每次給我們的數據這麼漂亮但實際上我們基層的軍官他們給我們的反應跟回饋都是一個人做好多人的工作"},{"start":294.349,"end":312.815,"text":"所以今天既然我也很感謝主席安排了這樣子一個機會去討論國軍邊線筆的問題但是你們就應該要好好的去重新檢視到底是哪邊出了很大的問題像這個表格就非常的清楚所以部長我想要問一下"},{"start":313.815,"end":342.291,"text":"在這個地方是不是我們在邊線筆的處理上面檢視上面不要用混在一起的情況可以針對軍官士官士兵他分別你要提升他的邊線筆你都要用不同的措施才有可能達到這是第一點等一下會給你們回答的時間好不好因為我今天還有一些議題第二個我要講的是空軍空軍每年退伍的人數也是逐漸增加的我們可以看一下"},{"start":343.72,"end":367.194,"text":"借其不適滿的持續走高從我們可以看到右邊這個是我們空軍弟兄提前退伍以及期滿不適的情況111年到112年到113年這是我們目前可以拿到的最新數據那呢期滿不適的人數從19到25到34那"},{"start":371.365,"end":373.028,"text":"一個是漲了32%再來是漲了36%平均每年漲幅是三成多"},{"start":380.868,"end":408.174,"text":"再來空軍部分如果我們先前討論的是F-16V 66架什麼時候到貨嘛那大家很關心但同時我們要考量我們有多少的飛官能夠在貨裝66架的F-16V之後再加上我們本來的機隊有能力有足夠的人數來飛這個飛機飛行員短缺的部分我們可以看到其實"},{"start":411.115,"end":438.623,"text":"這個飛行員短缺的部分我們看到這個當然在前一頁這是彭博社的英文這個數據他引用了2011年到2019年竟增加了21位的F16的飛行員那以目前的增加趨勢來說就左邊這一張你可以看一下那每一年要增加多少的F16的飛行員除了基本數之外如果只增加了兩到三位左右的話"},{"start":439.443,"end":465.325,"text":"那要再增加大概100多位那估計要多久的時間能夠完成否則即便我們希望能夠貨裝F-16V的66架再加我們原本的戰鬥機那又有分AB座艙一人座跟兩人座如果我們的飛官的人數不夠的話那我們整體的這個聯軍作戰的時候那買了這麼多的飛機那又要有誰開呢"},{"start":466.406,"end":483.654,"text":"所以是不是那我們先請這個國防部針對我剛剛兩個問題第一個就是我們空軍每年退伍的人數增加的原因以及我們飛行員短缺什麼時候能夠補足這兩個題目給我們一個回答先跟委員報告我們整個空軍的流營"},{"start":485.354,"end":512.584,"text":"因为这个数据您显示的这个数据到113我们跟113跟114年比较的话我们今年的流盈是增加了6.3%所以期满不蓄的人有多少期满不蓄的人总共是800多那也比这是113是800多总共是离的是800多但是我们今年的数字是只有400多比去年还要好了五成"},{"start":513.004,"end":542.077,"text":"你講的是整個三年的這個離退人數就全部全部吧我現在只問飛行員而已啊飛行員的部分這個數字這個是飛行員這不是全部飛行員的部分跟您報告我們現在就是這個月的飛行員的邊線比是98.4我們要問你邊線比我要問你的是離退的部分因為你看這個表格嘛因為114年不好意思因為我這邊我沒有辦法拿到數字那這些都是你們提供給我的那既然114年有新的數字你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":543.6,"end":547.972,"text":"114年提前退伍的人數以及期滿不遂的人數個別是多少"},{"start":549.746,"end":577.744,"text":"我們總共是一百零四元什麼意思啊那邊哪邊一百零四元嘛我們兩個是加起來是一百零四元這是不一樣的啊提前退伍跟期滿不續是兩個概念主席不好意思請他回答完這個問題我們就結束就請你告訴我一百一十四年我們的飛行員提前退伍的人數是多少期滿不續的人數是多少個資是多少請給我這個數據"},{"start":578.985,"end":584.412,"text":"我們總共是104下去之後跟你做一個分別分別的數字但是跟委員報告期滿不續不代表他退伍他只是沒有簽續扶益獎金我知道啊但是這個也是一個很重要的數據要做參考用的"},{"start":595.925,"end":624.981,"text":"因為大家都會去看說如果今天我只要跟你討論期滿不去我就不用提前退伍嘛所以我才說你要分開來看嘛包委還有一個很重要的因素我們會預判人事預判我們每一年離退的人數所以說我們每一年在招生飛行員的時候會補足未來所以說為什麼我們今天可以滿足到98.4邊線比的飛行員的原因也在這裡其實它的總數是並沒有下降"},{"start":626.625,"end":650.879,"text":"所以你要告訴我說提前退伍的人有多少下去我們之後參訪長就說下去了我知道因為我剛剛講完他又另外補充所以我還得再回答他好不好所以請再提供給我們然後也請注意到因為你現在講的所謂邊線比是你目前的部分那你有考慮到66架的F16V來了之後我們現在飛行員的人數是足夠的嗎"},{"start":651.639,"end":657.813,"text":"因為你算起來的話大概需要大概需要我看一下"},{"start":659.692,"end":681.91,"text":"大概需要大概100你們算是多少人你們算是需要多少人就是我們F-16B整個66架來了之後包含現在的這整體的編裝的話私下報告我們編裝下去再跟您報告但是跟委員報告剛剛跟您報告沒問題你私下跟我報告就好112年開始就做人事推估包含這66架的飛行員的補充"},{"start":682.43,"end":690.908,"text":"因為很多人都很擔心說我們整體的這個飛行員的人數因為提前退伍離退的人其實是多的這點你還是要多注意好不好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}