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11:39:36","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.93284375,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.79221875,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.43346875,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.71096875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.01846875,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":33.98346875,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.23221875,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.32034375,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.31596875,"end":43.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":43.720343750000005,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.92659375,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.93471875,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.15346875,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.92096875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.33721875,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.41284375000001,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.74096875000001,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.12034375,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.86284375000001,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.37721875000001,"end":84.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.16534375,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":93.26534375,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.69034375000001,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.70221875,"end":111.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.76034375,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.31659375000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.88596875,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.47659375,"end":120.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.36221875000001,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.47596875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.99034375000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.96471875,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.60784375,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.05409375000002,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.37471875,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.11409375000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":198.16034375,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.14721875,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":202.73346875000001,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.92471875,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.41346875000002,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.47596875000002,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.45471875,"end":232.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.24346875,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":235.50471875000002,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.73159375,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":249.12284375000002,"end":254.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":255.21471875,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.96784375000004,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.80909375000005,"end":286.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.61909375,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.98534375,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.84784375000004,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.70971875000004,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.49409375000005,"end":334.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.59909375,"end":346.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.30159375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":349.37721875,"end":350.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.57096875,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.16909375,"end":363.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.38784375,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.15846875,"end":379.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.17409375,"end":405.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":405.30096875000004,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","sta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央行副總裁還有我們的主計長好 請陳主計長然後原副總裁高副主委"},{"start":17.022,"end":31.975,"text":"三位好我想在這裡要很誠摯的跟大家感謝身為執政黨的委員我必須要肯定整個行政團隊在國家財政穩定跟經濟發展上面的貢獻"},{"start":34.042,"end":55.098,"text":"那我要跟大家做一個說明我是來自於非常偏鄉的一個區域立委當然熟知主計長他非常了解在我的選區裡頭我們很多的農民 漁民還有就是基層的勞工也相當的多"},{"start":55.973,"end":74.543,"text":"那今天站在這裡其實不是來要漂亮的一個數字而是要來一個答案所以特別跟那個副主委做一個探討就是說台灣這幾年不管在GBT還是在股市的一個指數裡頭這個突破27000點其實這個數字都非常的漂亮"},{"start":79.426,"end":98.777,"text":"可是當我回到選區的時候,我的選民拉著我的手告訴我說委員,如果這樣,你都說有夠好有夠好,可是我們確實都面臨到非常多的一個困境我想在這裡就是要跟你做一個探討,這個是我們執政的一個危機"},{"start":100.748,"end":114.667,"text":"我不知道那個 副主委你對於我這些想法上我讓你看到一個台南市的中手稅的一個結算申報我們有37個區 最有錢的這個是中西區101"},{"start":120.476,"end":141.145,"text":"這個101萬個人最最貧窮的是柳營區65.8萬你看光是一個台南37個區差距就這麼大那你如果用全國來比的話那我們從這個數字裡頭我們可以看得到政府的亮眼的數據跟人民這個冰冷的感受"},{"start":143.051,"end":165.529,"text":"回答我對於這樣子的一個社會氛圍你有什麼樣的一個感覺報告委員我覺得我們近年來因為台灣那個半導體產業的發展那跟傳產之間的確有一個非常比較大的落差就是我們的ICT產業其實因為那個數位轉型還有AI"},{"start":166.549,"end":191.968,"text":"創新運用的發展得非常好我們產產某個程度上受到比如說大陸內捲還有一些關稅的一些效應其實事實上它會比較辛苦一點我們其實政府已經有注意到所謂產業分佈的兩極化的問題還有一個所以我們現在全力想要做的一件事情除了維持我們在IIII半導體的競爭優勢以外均衡台灣"},{"start":194.89,"end":201.956,"text":"是當前政府施政的重點之一怎麼均衡 怎麼均衡台灣80%跟20%如何均衡所以第一個我們在產業發展中間我們一定要全力讓我們的傳產跟中小微企業都可以有AI賦能或者是我們儘量用不同的政策工具協助它可以轉型升級"},{"start":220.993,"end":238.331,"text":"好用不同的政策工具讓他轉型升級謝謝副主委那接著我請教那個我們的央行副總裁我們來講這個物價那我也不跟那個副總裁計較就是說這個GPT多穩定我也不問你說額外增進多少錢我想這些"},{"start":241.955,"end":266.545,"text":"這些情況就是通膨通膨這個怪獸其實已經悄悄的就是降臨在我們市周圍他數字的平均成長是增加的可是在偏鄉是下降的你我們從109年到104年的那個全國的農林業普查裡頭我以台南市台南市各區的農業收入為例你看這個5年當中"},{"start":269.025,"end":291.019,"text":"五年當中其實它總計它是升上來的它是升了10%可是如果你用每一個區來看的話這個柳營區它是降了12%六甲這是暴跌到17.34斜甲這個龍葉跟榆木葉非常發達的一個地方是富士山"},{"start":292.08,"end":306.253,"text":"所以在這裡我想請問就是副總裁你覺得台灣現在的通貨膨脹這麼嚴重那這些報告上的數據真的是符合到台灣人民的一個感受嗎"},{"start":307.878,"end":327.355,"text":"那個報告委其實如果我們去比較台灣的通貨膨脹跟其他國家通貨膨脹其實我們可以看到我們在我們的圖裡面也看到其實我們相對其他國家來講我們試著讓他通貨膨脹已經控制到相對的比人家是平緩很多的一個情況當然我也知道就是說這個對"},{"start":330.923,"end":356.141,"text":"這個所得差距這邊還是會影響到所以副總裁你覺得這個通膨膨脹如果比起其他國家裡頭的話我們相信的是穩定的一個通膨所以這個是大家應該要接受也應該是可以接受的是不是這樣子我們也看到就是最近這幾年其實通膨已經慢慢在下降了"},{"start":358.206,"end":378.118,"text":"即使是我們預期今年和明年其實跟前兩年比我們的通膨低卻主委你現在就是貧富鹹酥差那麼多嘛百分之二十的日積很好過百分之八十很難過所以說如果你是這樣子跟我回答的話那我本席是覺得很遺憾來 主席長"},{"start":380.279,"end":407.466,"text":"我想這個你的報告整體的成長10%有沒有看到背後就是在農業上就很多大農戶其實是賺錢的可是小農民反而是在退整體的平均數是不是被少數的高收入把它拉高了掩蓋了基層基層這些農民我是針對的農漁民來跟你講他們實際的一個困境我不知道主計長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":410.273,"end":432.615,"text":"本身這個部分他下降的部分因為因素是很多啦有可能就是說他的農地被徵收了然後資源我當然知道那這樣子他收入就會下降所以等於說經營的面積減少那不見得說他是他收入是這樣但總體來講他就是減少的那這個部分的我們也必須要深入去了解他到底是"},{"start":433.475,"end":437.517,"text":"你有沒有什麼好的方法還是說我們只要看這個科技業的20%那其他的百工百業的80%我們就是自我感覺良好就覺得說這個通膨的情況不嚴重"},{"start":458.683,"end":473.861,"text":"因為這幾個區大部分都是屬於農業區農業區的部分我們在農業部裡面有很多相關的一個補助和一個整個是在提升它一個相關收入的一些的措施在做所以這個要跨部會"},{"start":474.462,"end":497.301,"text":"我跟你講 農民的收入的問題出現了很大的一個困難的時候好 那三位都請回那我們接著就是請財政部部長因為財政部他的護稅在他身上所以他可以用最好的一個護稅的一個手法那是一個跨部會的手法所以在這裡我想請教部長"},{"start":498.862,"end":522.722,"text":"剛剛在我的質詢的內容裡頭你已經發現到龍一鳴勞工慢慢已經是入不敷出那感覺努力的工作他也換不到溫飽甚至說他的收入在遞減了請問部長你感覺到今天的報告中的經濟的一個數據有沒有重大的一個落差跟現有的一個環境因為你不能告訴我說你遇到的都好人"},{"start":525.373,"end":536.557,"text":"不然你們家打掃了歐巴桑你問問他所以對於有關我們中低收入的民眾我們在付稅部分就盡量減輕他們的負擔所以事實上有44%的申報戶在中所稅申報的時候是並沒有要達到繳稅的門檻"},{"start":546.301,"end":567.568,"text":"然後適用5%的稅率的部分大概佔36%所以在這個部分其實是對於中低收入所得者他的付稅負擔基本上是蠻低的幾乎44%就全部申報戶裡面是不用繳稅的所以部長你看到了問題的一個核心有錢的人 收入的人其實他可以結稅"},{"start":568.928,"end":590.857,"text":"他不需要繳那麼多的稅可是你在這個中低下層的這些農漁民的時候他每一條稅他都跑不掉所以就是說有沒有辦法跟農業部做一個合作就是建立農漁民所得的一個追蹤的一個機制我們讓稅制讓稅制跟補貼跟金融的一個輔助可以精準的對焦"},{"start":591.897,"end":604.825,"text":"我覺得這個其實是財政部可以做的我想委員這樣建議跟農業部去合作然後讓政府的相關的補助補貼可以更精準我想這個部分我們是可以跟農業部一起來討論沒有錯"},{"start":607.366,"end":626.706,"text":"部長 謝謝你我跟你講 榮英明的收入在下降可是成本在上升財政部你可以在能源稅在用油的補貼還有就是容積的一個折舊抵稅的一個政策上我建議應該要有一個積極跨部會的合作的一個調整方案好的 是 謝謝委員"},{"start":629.521,"end":650.437,"text":"做得到嗎我們再跟農業部再來討論那事實上目前來說農運民幾乎大概都沒有相關有沒有這樣的一個決心錢都在你身上錢都在我身上錢不是都在我身上因為剛才央行副總裁他告訴我說這個通盤如果比起外國來我們算是基本上算是還好的是平穩的對"},{"start":651.178,"end":670.514,"text":"那我為什麼要跟國外比呢我的國內我的農移民就是狀況這麼慘啊所以我就回到財政部裡頭所有的那個稅在你的身上是不是可以用一個比較合理的有錢人跟一般的農民他有一個不同的一個稅制的方式"},{"start":671.134,"end":689.029,"text":"現在就有區別譬如說是用40%所得稅率的人他其實只佔了我們的1%但是他繳的稅是繳了全部應納稅額的50%的大概是這樣子那所以當然我跟你講那個交你那個40%的你就是給他再收到80%他也沒差啦"},{"start":691.491,"end":720.451,"text":"互稅的部分還要考慮其他的因素是所以部長我想就是要拜託你一個跨部會跨部會的一個合作那我們建立一個可以讓稅制更好更周全的一個機制然後可以精準的對焦來幫助這些人我們在相關政策討論的時候都會跟部會一起討論三個月後提出來三個月後對委員這邊的一個提議我們來做一個給一個完整的書面報告給委員"},{"start":720.991,"end":725.739,"text":"好 我們希望不是一個量力的數字是個讓人民有感的一個數字比較具體實際的數字好 謝謝謝謝賴委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}