{"error":false,"id":["165504"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165504,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165504","日期":"2025-11-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-17T10:16:04+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-17T10:28:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abe395b44b57dea474bfb6dfa65ed0fc1da41d86124363ebc20fcb2c0d88e7dc125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:16:04 - 10:28:02","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.890968750000001,"end":7.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.24909375,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.548468750000001,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.555968750000002,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.78534375,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.67846875000001,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":77.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.97659375,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.13659375,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.80721875,"end":86.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.16096875000001,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.06346875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.57784375,"end":94.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.40034375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.48846875000001,"end":96.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.68659375,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.46596875,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.64721875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.20346875000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.48909375000001,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.30346875,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.93971875,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.30159375000002,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.22534375,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.75159375,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.29159375,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.05096875,"end":171.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.21096875,"end":176.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.75034375,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.59784375,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.41909375,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.32596875000002,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.12284375000002,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.73846875,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.52721875,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.72034375,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.62971875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.15596875000003,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.34971875000002,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.57596875000002,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.38971875000001,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.70159375000003,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.60846875000001,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.24721875,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.55909375000005,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.63909375000003,"end":274.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.14409375,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.46034375,"end":277.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.53596875,"end":287.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.49659375000005,"end":302.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.63346875,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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我們有請我們洪部長部長請另外那個主計處專門委員也請好 部長我們今天討論的這個議題其實是很關鍵千萬勞工都在看就是說勞保基金面臨破產的問題這個是大家都知道的事情從2017年開始它的收支就呈現了不平衡"},{"start":32.95,"end":50.09,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下目前民進黨執政9年採取的都是撥補的措施沒有進行任何的改革那也就是這樣子今天才會有這麼多的委員希望既然現在短期採取撥補那不能說今天想要撥100億就100億"},{"start":51.972,"end":77.332,"text":"明年200億就是說很任意性的沒有一個固定的撥補的金額或是一定程度以上撥補的金額勞工不會安心所以今天才會有委員的版本其實也提出就是至少千億這樣的一個規模那首先我就要問部長你對於這個撥補你的立場是支持還是反對你說開放開放到底是支持還是反對"},{"start":78.198,"end":102.905,"text":"波普是我們現在持續在做的所以入法你是支持的波普兩個字入法我想這個波普的法制化我們是同意的但是你們反對就是限定金額主要是因為財政紀律財政紀律法裡面其實有明定你們現在其實坦白講也都千億規模啦有可能再更少嗎但是這不是少不少的問題是沒有辦法把固定金額入法"},{"start":104.022,"end":114.953,"text":"沒有辦法把固定金額入法那如果沒有辦法固定金額入法你要勞工怎麼相信就是我們的政府一定撥補的額度會讓他們不會憂慮短期之間沒有領不到錢的問題"},{"start":119.82,"end":145.357,"text":"其實我們這幾年 從去年是撥補了1300億那今年其實 今年公務預算是1200那接下來也包括特別預算裡面有100億所以這其實都目前都超過1000億以上的金額在撥補那我們當然我們會視財政的狀況我想我們會極力的爭取未來不要低於這個金額那甚至我們也希望能夠高於這個金額"},{"start":146.403,"end":150.017,"text":"所以你能保證未來的撥補的金額不會低於1300億"},{"start":152.637,"end":176.524,"text":"委員這不是保證的問題但我們會盡力的爭取而這幾年我們其實用實際的行動來去對呀 部長如果你沒有辦法掛保證然後呢這個入法又不肯洩明勞工就會不安心啊其實你可以 你也可以保證啊沒有寫固定的數字你可以說你當部長的時候我保證一定爭取超過1300億爭取我當然都要盡力爭取 爭取我絕對保證"},{"start":179.665,"end":204.468,"text":"可是因為實際的金額能夠有多少這還關乎到整個國家的財政 關乎到組總的權責所以爭取 如果是爭取的話 我當然一定爭取我一定保證爭取主席處 你們今天的這個報告裡面你們是反對撥補的對不對基本上不是反對 而是希望我沒有看到支持兩個字 你的通篇報告裡面只有說這個 下一頁"},{"start":206.028,"end":227.695,"text":"主席總書說要秉持裁員自給自足制度設計要雇主勞工政府三方共同負擔保費但你們沒有明確去回應今天的修法是支持或反對基本上我們其實是建議說在撥補之餘還是要考量整體的這個收支結構的調整要並同來考量以上為什麼為什麼是這樣的考量"},{"start":228.393,"end":240.006,"text":"因為這個是社會保險他基本上制度上的設計就是要由本來的這個雇主還有這個勞工還有我們政府一起來共同面對這個財務責任因為你們知道再怎麼撥補"},{"start":242.421,"end":261.56,"text":"就是也補不了對不對你看看這張圖事實上我必須坦白講我們的撥補只是一個短期讓勞工安心的措施這張圖表如果大家認真看未來50年勞保基金的收支表你可以看到他的支出是紅色的這條線這個將來的這個金額"},{"start":266.716,"end":276.706,"text":"這個大家仔細認真看喔將來這個金額都是突破上兆以上的這個金額那我們的收入都不會動"},{"start":279.304,"end":301.158,"text":"這個是引用你們的我們藍色的這條線保費的收入完全都不動現在大概都是4500億不會增加那中間的落差你就是要靠如果現在這個民進黨政府持續說撥補就是改革要靠撥補的話我跟各位講到123年的時候支出已經來到1兆500億"},{"start":303.079,"end":325.837,"text":"這個的逆差 收支的逆差會來到六千億部長 你應該好好看這個數字喔如果你不敢承諾一千三百億至少的撥補事實上你來到一百二十三年 十年以後這個的逆差恐怕已經是我不知道政府要花多少力氣一百二十九年的時候已經達到一兆"},{"start":327.404,"end":348.232,"text":"就是這樣的一個速度跟規模所以我也必須提醒大家撥補及時改革它是一個短期短期的效果長期的主計處講了大白話長期你如果整個保險制度你沒有做任何調整跟改革最終它就是這樣的效果政府有可能拿一兆以上的資金來撥補嗎"},{"start":349.252,"end":372.986,"text":"跟委員說明所以我才說我們當然希望我會指我們當然希望極力爭取撥補甚至也希望爭取撥補的金額能夠高於現在撥補的金額是那第二個其實這幾年我們其實在基金的投資上面其實也有很大的斬貨這也讓我們現在整體的基金的水位現在其實到了1兆2超過1兆2了像今年可能也增加超過2000億"},{"start":374.247,"end":397.144,"text":"那所謂除了撥補跟基金的投資其實都是在我們希望盡量去維持這個基金水位我覺得很明確而具體的做法那當然委員在講的提醒我覺得很重要那不過的確今天在給付或者是在保費上面的調整這當然攸關更多的勞工的權益所以這部分當然我覺得可能會需要一個社會更大的共識"},{"start":398.052,"end":412.373,"text":"但你有在思考這件事嗎有在研議這件事嗎還是波普其實改革從那個何佩珊講完之後這個就是政策其實也不用去思考未來更長期的改革各種的狀況跟情境我們當然都必須要思考"},{"start":413.374,"end":440.615,"text":"但是不同的做法也會在社會上面產生不同的意見我知道 執政其實必須就是要負責這一個問題我已經從許明春部長問到現在了許明春部長的時候他說有我們有一個小組請問那個小組還存在嗎他說那時候他還有一個小組他說我們還是持續在開會啊我們在研議那我問一下洪部長請問許明春時代的那一個針對勞保年金的改革的小組"},{"start":442.117,"end":458.59,"text":"還在嗎還是早就已經不在了這個議題其實根本沒有人要做長期的跟委員說明這不一定是什麼小組可是第一個是在這個議題裡面的各種的情境各種可能性其實勞動部都必須要去思考撥補是一個做法其中之一"},{"start":460.953,"end":476.092,"text":"撥補是其中之一那基金的投資也是那我們也在做其他開源節流的部分那當然如果委員是要問比方說降幾付或者是提高費率這部分當然就是要做整體的評估"},{"start":478.352,"end":504.726,"text":"這個部長你們可不可以提一個報告如果就我這樣的觀察123年喔這個收支逆差達到6000億喔你們會如何的改善然後預計要撥補多少基金投資收益要多少然後你剛剛說我還聽到你們要拍賣你們的資產就是說不動產就是來增加一些收益我是從媒體看到我不知道這個是不是確實的這不是我們主要的做法"},{"start":505.646,"end":518.895,"text":"對那我希望你們提一個報告好不好至少是10年10年的你們怎麼樣去因應這樣的一個收支的一個逆差的一個報告你們提得出來嗎我想我們可以給委員一份說明嗎可以齁好那要多久可以給本席兩個月"},{"start":522.339,"end":540.849,"text":"兩個月好那我希望可以看到這份報告接下來我要問那個移工的問題我直接看那個最後那個移工的那個開放政策移工的開放政策即將要破百萬那這樣的一個準備我們準備好了沒有最近大家都在看這個詐騙"},{"start":542.37,"end":556.599,"text":"那最近有幾起的新聞報導我覺得讓人家有點擔心就是因為我們失聯移工的這個人數其實也持續在增加當中那是不是有人去吸收他們就是有失聯移工去監這個車手然後這個"},{"start":561.212,"end":580.132,"text":"被抓到這樣的一個情況今天好像移民署也有來就是說面對這樣的一個情況你們發現現在的現況的比例到底是多還是是少因為我們這個是初步的這樣的一個統計外籍車手有1000人這個情況部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":581.113,"end":592.891,"text":"我們其實都一直看到相關的資訊然後其實也有請我們的法案署跟移民署那包括跟警政單位來做一些協同的討論我請這部分請我們署長來說明"},{"start":594.076,"end":619.861,"text":"好來署長您說包委員其實這個情況我們一直在跨部會的平台裡面我們也是member之一那我們其實透過從他的入境入境的時候以及入境後透過各樣的管道以及各樣實體或數位的課程我們做了非常多的宣導跟教育訓練那只要有類似這樣的案件的時候其實我們在第一線地方政府也都會透過相關的資訊做通報"},{"start":622.065,"end":637.982,"text":"因為我們現在需要這個外籍移工的比例各行各業都上升最近其實又放寬了一波但是我要提醒的就是勞動部跟移民署就是一方面放寬的同時我們的這個管理其實也很重要不是說因為"},{"start":639.203,"end":656.716,"text":"放寬之後然後進來然後這個逃逸的移工人數又增加那逃逸的增加有一些部分失聯還變成是車手變成是犯罪集團去吸收一部分那這個對於台灣的整體的我們的社會秩序跟環境就不是一件好事喔所以管理的責任在"},{"start":657.476,"end":675.044,"text":"勞動部跟移民署你們有管理的責任我希望這一塊要去強化要不然這樣我看起來是另外一層的隱憂對台灣的社會安全其實形成了隱憂跟我說其實我們一直在跟來源母國討論那怎麼樣子不管是宣導也好或者是也要請來源母國協助那針對"},{"start":678.405,"end":700.639,"text":"這個如果移工來台失聯的問題的話他們其實也應該要幫忙這個做一些相對應的處置這我們也是在跟他們討論那第二個也是其實移工失聯的問題其實某些部分也會跟這個強迫勞動的議題有關係所以我們其實接下來也會針對強迫勞動的議題進行一些相對應的這個策略來提出那我們都認為這可能會對於"},{"start":701.899,"end":714.826,"text":"這個移工試點的狀況那能夠有些幫助好我希望你們關注這一塊因為百萬移工即將要到來那我不希望這個又變成形成我們另外一個在治安或者是在社會秩序上面的引誘好不好謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}