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謝謝主席那麼首先先邀請法務部正部長還有陳局長及廉政署的林副署長林副署長"},{"start":17.894,"end":36.701,"text":"吳委員長是 部長好我首先我想要問一個也是涉及到比較算是制度層面上面的問題這次週刊爆料有關於中油三階二期工程可能涉及舞弊的事情那裡面特別有提到就是這個檢舉人"},{"start":37.901,"end":56.428,"text":"他其實從三年前他就開始檢舉了那但是呢三番兩次的檢舉都沒有效果最後他不得已把這個檢舉的這個事情提供給週刊然後由週刊寫出來然後才引起大家的關注那所以本期想請教就是說你們對於目前"},{"start":57.168,"end":80.948,"text":"像是人民的檢舉案 告發案等等檢調單位不僅是地檢署還有調查局 廉政署你們有沒有一套受理的SOP還是說是檢舉案進來了基本上置之不理等到上面上級長官交辦之後才開始把檢舉函找出來看你們有沒有一套SOP"},{"start":83.515,"end":107.848,"text":"檢舉進來的話那個受理的機關他就會收文收文他們認為有涉及到犯罪事實的話就會做一個立案所以有涉及到犯罪事實才會立案基本上立案之後才開始偵辦才會有字號就是案件字號但是誰來認定說這個案子到底有沒有涉及犯罪事實要不要受理"},{"start":110.712,"end":114.758,"text":"你收了这些解决函之后他没有一个登载记录吗"},{"start":115.758,"end":144.435,"text":"這個一定 收文一定會有收文會有所以如果說是以這次的週刊上面講說這個檢舉人他基本上已經至少兩次了吧都有去檢舉那你們都沒有任何的收文的記錄嗎事實上這個案件其實在調查一個年度基本我了解是在週刊報的以前就有立案了都有在調查了所以沒有像這個週刊講說我們置之不理沒有那回事"},{"start":144.989,"end":169.819,"text":"所以也就是說基本上是檢調已經當時收到檢舉人的來函然後已經有開始算是有立案嗎 立案有再調查嗎這不過是不是這個是我請調查局跟那個聯證署來講聯證署來回覆一下報告委員 調查局先回答好不好是這個案子我們調查局只收過一次檢舉就是我在書面報告裡面提到就在今年的8月那我們收到檢舉以後我們就馬上就立案"},{"start":170.915,"end":180.42,"text":"所以你們調查局是8月的時候才收到這個檢舉第一次的檢舉兩三年前那時候沒有收到沒有另外聯證署呢"},{"start":182.989,"end":209.748,"text":"跟委員報告在113年我們有接到一份檢舉但是當時檢舉的內容不是很具體那比較像是單位就是國營事業裡面可能在預算的編列上有問題所以當時是交由經濟部的政風處轉由總有的政風處來進行調查那今天經濟部看是次長還是可以回覆"},{"start":213.676,"end":227.375,"text":"請次長說明一下你們有收到檢舉函嗎我們這邊有收到就是從那個我們廉政署交下來的一個查查的一個資料所以是在去年就收到了去年那在此之前呢在此之前是沒有"},{"start":231.219,"end":233.721,"text":"我必須說當然這個事情現在已經檢調已經在進行偵辦了那麼我希望就是說可以把這個檢舉的這個事情相關的流程要弄清楚這檢舉人基本上大概已經檢舉了不止兩次如果說14年8月可能還有去年他說三年前他就有檢舉了"},{"start":251.474,"end":278.515,"text":"那么所以到底这些检举进了检调单位 廉政署之后是不是石沉大海到底谁有权决定说有没有涉及犯罪事实有没有开始要成立立案那本席认为说这个事件很重要的事情那么事实上法务部自己内部你们有定定检查机关办案期限及防止羁押实施要点防止羁延实施要点那在这个实施要点里面其实没有看到就是说有关于像是受理这个检举函"},{"start":279.275,"end":294.545,"text":"就如果有解決函提出來之後他的誰要是不是要受理誰來決定這個部分是不是可以請部長你們之後可以去延期重新檢討這份實施要點有沒有需要再做檢討"},{"start":295.585,"end":323.671,"text":"那個我們再來做一個再做一個檢視那我想我們沒有再刺案了剛才委員有很關心這個問題那我想廉政署剛才有提到是在去年就有收到這個而且那個檢舉說到底是跟哪個機關哪個單位檢舉我們不清楚我們現在僅能夠就我們所屬的機關我們接獲的檢舉或者是像上次那個辦那個那個是委員會是一個會上次"},{"start":324.391,"end":350.689,"text":"對 記者會那一次有把這個資料轉給台北地檢署來依法來偵辦那這部分我想我們這邊的控管都是相當的嚴謹的我希望你們的管控是嚴謹的因為呢 事實上如果從剛剛的這個各個不同機關的說明裡面就可以知道不是說沒有受到檢舉函只是你們認為可能沒有那麼嚴重不涉及到犯罪 所以根本沒啟動那在中間有沒有可能"},{"start":351.169,"end":363.335,"text":"有人是故意把這個案子沒收起來了好不曉得不過就是沒關係這個部分我想本席這邊已經了解清楚了那麼確實是就是如同週刊上面所報告所講的那個新聞檢舉人的確他之前就已經有檢舉了"},{"start":368.317,"end":390.473,"text":"那是不是寄給不同的機關都是同樣的檢舉函而有些機關有受理有些機關沒有受理那麼總之就這個案子來講的話基本上還是要盡速的去查辦好那接下來呢我要想問的就是說事實上有關於今天在防務部的報告裡面也有寫到有關於機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":391.414,"end":405.53,"text":"那其實這個政策基本上是蠻不錯的主要是為了要確保國家重大的公共建設的品質以及廉潔所以廉政署有積極推動機關採購廉政平台的機制那到目前為止根據你們自己的"},{"start":407.031,"end":432.065,"text":"這個裡面的報告內容已經設立了90案的廉政平台然後其中有64個案子還在持續運作有25個案已經結案了有一個案因為政策調整暫緩但我想請問一下就是為什麼我們台灣的重大工程這麼多件但是事實上只有90案有成立機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":433.54,"end":459.457,"text":"标准是什么这个是有一个在法务部有在2016年就有颁布的一个机关采购廉政平台的一个实施计划但是因为本来就是政府采购是采最低标那最低标会有一些的现象就是工程品质没办法做一个确保所以那就采最有利标所以在那个情况之下说又有责有法务部去去定定这个机关采购廉政平台"},{"start":459.497,"end":486.85,"text":"是的 部長我知道我剛說了我基本上認為說這樣子的一個概念這樣的一個機制是很好的但是全台我們現在每年政府有這麼多的重大公共工程公共工程的採購案為什麼只有90個案子是有成立廉政平台這邊可能要請經濟部次長可能也請您回覆經濟部旗下那麼多國營事業這麼多的案子請問您知道你們現在有多少案子是有成立廉政採購"},{"start":487.89,"end":516.686,"text":"平台的嗎 採購廉政平台我們現在就針對綠能還有一些水利署的一些案件我們有運用這個廉政的這個採購的平台來協助 那我接下來想請那個方董事就是請忠祐董事長還有台電的台電董事長請問董事長兩位董事長你們目前你們自己公司裡面的這些採購案有成立採購廉政平台嗎"},{"start":518.768,"end":545.057,"text":"我印象中有幾個案子有成立譬如說週季二期的石化除草那你們這次的中油三接的這個案子有嗎三接這個工程沒有所以你們是什麼樣的標準有些要成立有些又沒有成立像這麼金額這麼龐大的案子竟然沒有成立機關採購廉政平台這個基本上也是一個"},{"start":547.561,"end":565.109,"text":"很明顯的一個疏失可能就是在當時就是幾個重大的工程去選擇的問題理論上應該是每一個重大工程案都要成立啊如果說他提早成立的話也許就不會發生像今天這樣的錯誤請問像台電董事長你們有成立嗎"},{"start":569.097,"end":587.963,"text":"我們有成立我們有成立就包括現在在招標中的合一合二室內幹處的案子包括離岸二期的案子幾個重大的案子比較金額大的我們都有成立廉政平台我想請中郵跟台電這裡就是要提供給我一份資料還包含那個"},{"start":589.383,"end":602.891,"text":"經濟部 就是你們目前就是有多少的重大公共工程案子然後有多少件是成立了這個採購廉政平台這相關的數量要給我我想至少100億以上的案子都算是大案子吧"},{"start":603.951,"end":620.39,"text":"甚至可能51百億以上都是大案子但是呢我沒有想到竟然實際上成立的這麼少那麼以我們這次看到你們這個這麼嚴重的弊案竟然沒有之前就沒有成立這樣的案子讓我們真是匪夷所思好那接下來我還要再請教中油"},{"start":623.493,"end":646.686,"text":"董事長的一個問題就是這次我們可以看到主要是台灣世襲公司他基本上針對三接二期的計畫提了相關的預算的評估那在第一次是提的是238億那麼第二次又增加到253億那我想請教就是中油"},{"start":647.606,"end":669.068,"text":"裡面有沒有針對世西公司所提出的預算報告有一個在控管或是在查核的一個機制我們怎麼知道世西這樣的報價對不對你們有經過什麼樣的審查機制嗎當然在公司內部會有一個複核的機制我們會去查他所提供的一些大宗"},{"start":669.708,"end":696.084,"text":"物料 大宗物料 譬如說壞石啦 鋼筋混泥土啦這些用量比較大的這些基礎材料呢會去做一個查核 查死的動作因為如果說是以這次的週刊上面的這些報導的話那本席也認為說其實世錫公司在當時針對這個二階外推的工程的預算評估或許也有問題"},{"start":697.725,"end":723.635,"text":"也有問題 是不是他裡面他也福報就是因為他一開始他福報了 他就是應該是他他應該是 他就是把這個估價估得高了 然後你們後來又依照那個比較高的價格去公告所以才會產生後續這種福報工程費的這個問題所以對於世西這個顧問公司裡面 他當時他做的每一個計畫你們的負荷是"},{"start":727.324,"end":750.75,"text":"如實的嗎就是你們有真正的去好好的去看裡面的問題嗎是當然我們有好好的看這第一點當然我想接下來檢調單位會針對這個案子繼續去做詳查那麼尤其是我們看到這次連政署他所做的這個報告法務部報告也說所有現在國營事業裡面的弊案就以中游最多"},{"start":751.63,"end":772.06,"text":"所以你們真的要深切檢討怎麼可能紀律風紀會荒唐到這樣的一個程度實在是不可思議喔所以董事長應該要好好的要去整頓中油內部好不好好OK那今天就談到這邊那接下來我要我剛剛所請你們要提供的報告也請你們在禮拜五之前提供給我好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}