{"error":false,"id":["165506"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165506,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165506","日期":"2025-11-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-17T10:28:08+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-17T10:40:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:46","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab8f4454bb89fdb904bfb6dfa65ed0fc1da41d86124363ebc2bc5f279a864bc0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:28:08 - 10:40:54","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.418468750000001,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.649093750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.11596875,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.53784375,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.04284375,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.49784375,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.67284375,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.58409375000001,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.65159375,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.74846875,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.44221875000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.75409375000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.39534375000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.09971875000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.12034375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.44909375,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.36409375000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.08971875,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.87846875000001,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.69159375000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.66971875,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.75034375,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.84659375,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.49096875,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.84534375,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.13909375,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.21784375000001,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.63534375,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.81284375,"end":226.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.79409375,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.81096875,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.93659375000001,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.89784375000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.52221875,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.97784375,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.96909375,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.44159375,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.55096875,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.18784375,"end":238.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.03159375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.04846875,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.06534375,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.08221875,"end":240.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.61784375000002,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.89534375000002,"end":254.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.34159375000002,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.46284375,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.95784375,"end":295.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.91721875,"end":313.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.73721875,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.39909375,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.12784375,"end":325.41471875},{"spea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謝謝主席 我請部長還有勞保局 白局長還有基金應用局 蘇局長請部長 蘇委員好今天大家都在替你擔心切口是3.5兆這是怎麼算來的啊"},{"start":32.219,"end":34.369,"text":"你是小心要蓋然後把費率在那裡鋪陳"},{"start":36.536,"end":63.621,"text":"委員並不是 這個你講的是潛藏負債那這個勞保基金的這個潛藏的負債其實主要的原因它其實是因為這個因為勞保是確定給付制嘛那在這確定給付制裡面其實我們不一定之前都不一定是有逐年這個提滿它的這個費率那費率可能是逐年的調高"},{"start":64.301,"end":87.218,"text":"那所以其實在我們在看到各國的公共的基金的這個保險社會保險的公共基金裡面其實都會看到潛藏負債的狀況那這個潛藏負債的狀況並不會一次就實現所以我們看聽說勞保破產差不多聽了十幾年了每年都要破產每年都要過每年就過關頭過身就過我們現在勞保費率是12.5%嘛"},{"start":92.422,"end":98.824,"text":"那裡面一般的是11.5%嗎12.5%是包括舊寶舊寶1%所以11.5%那這個11.5%有沒有在漲價的空間我們到116年是12%到就慢慢的會加到100到12%那有沒有打算又再漲"},{"start":116.704,"end":130.463,"text":"因為最有效的方法就是漲費率嘛當然漲費率你要看勞工會不會動公司會不會動跟我的說明的確不管是漲費率或者是相對的做法因為它確實會"},{"start":132.466,"end":151.848,"text":"涉及到比方說勞工或者是企業的這個部分所以這當然我們有聽當然各界會有人提出這樣子的主張但是的確這會需要也需要一些社會的討論跟社會的共識因為這也涉及到勞工的權益所以近期內沒有發生要去匯率吧"},{"start":154.274,"end":179.697,"text":"我們目前有人就叫你召開國事會議有人召開什麼東東的然後看起來都是在在研議研議研議嘛對我覺得各種做法當然我們都必須要有一些評估跟思考啦可是每個做法重點是他後面在社會接受度的可行性上面也要一併的考慮所以在你任內應該這個規律不會往上調啦這個跟這個衛福部部長那種執行的感觀"},{"start":181.979,"end":204.535,"text":"我覺得我們現在當然就是包括基金投資這幾年的收益很好也包括像現在持續的爭取撥補也很謝謝行政院跟組總願意在我們現在很辛苦的國家財政之下還是願意給勞保一定額度今年大概明年一千二以上這樣子的撥補的金額"},{"start":206.756,"end":226.252,"text":"我想這部分要很謝謝竹總我們現在勞保基金差不多1.2兆嘛勞動基金差不多7.43兆差不多嘛那新制的勞退基金4.9兆然後就職的差不多1.03兆所以加起來是10幾兆啊1313嘛勞動基金就是包含新制 旧制"},{"start":236.764,"end":250.719,"text":"7.4兆這是兩個加起來所有的勞動基金加起來是7.4兆所以你現在13兆那你又缺口又13.5兆你現在在玩魔術跟我說13兆是13兆是潛藏負債他不是一定會實現的數字潛藏負債"},{"start":256.666,"end":277.825,"text":"學者專家的吃飽太遠都在想人想事常常聽到他們一天到晚恐嚇勒索我覺得我們傳統產業最近是蠻辛苦的台灣是靠單一的一個產業晶片產業占了GDP的將近六七十%這是很可怕的事情"},{"start":279.231,"end":294.753,"text":"萬一這個有一點散失的話整個是會像荷蘭這樣人家講荷蘭病荷蘭病荷蘭病就是在說什麼他們就是整個投到石化業因為整個北海挖到石油之後荷蘭可以分到錢就整個國家瘋狂都在搞石化業"},{"start":296.169,"end":315.808,"text":"搞一搞到最後就出事啦 油價一噴盤 抓竊了我們台灣現在都在課晶片那個看起來是很棒 稅金也一大部分從那邊來那我們傳統產業自己又現在美國關稅又搞一搞的話 是會很慘的所以 莫大夫 你要注意一點"},{"start":317.729,"end":332.686,"text":"這當然這是整體台灣的產業經濟的狀況也會有關於勞工的各種的條件跟待遇當然好所以短期內我們匯率就是明年到增加到12%之後你們沒有再往上調目前沒有啦"},{"start":335.362,"end":356.022,"text":"後年到12%這是依法的部分所以部長你這個整個掌管整個全國勞工的勞動前夜還有公司行要讓他們能夠做下去有的要保護有的要扶持有的要補助等等"},{"start":357.504,"end":379.22,"text":"所以有時候也不要一昧的去苛責公司行號這邊有時候我覺得你們都太嚴格了啦然後去就不管三七二十一大家看著人然後勞動部的人都要害怕死了大家都哀鴻騙人現在做構築是很難做的所以你們出去要和藹可親慈眉善目好不好"},{"start":385.364,"end":400.57,"text":"輔導為主不要亂搞 哪個亂砍沒有人受得了我們大概就是本於保障勞工的職責然後來做我今天提的那個第63條遺囑年金這一塊這個受撫養這一塊是太嚴格了"},{"start":405.78,"end":423.844,"text":"勞保局只是分辨形式而已嘛你這個受扶養就要什麼有陪伴相都要寫得這麼完善然後這個孫女或者是兄弟姊妹就有工藝的我去準備的我去寫的我就不用了所以全部都站不出來嘛所以這點 寶刁我刪掉你有意見嗎"},{"start":431.465,"end":450.903,"text":"委員重點重點是在這個條文上面之前那個4至549號的解釋文大法官4至549號解釋文其實有說因為這個這個勞保其實是所得替代的性質它並不是遺產所以因為在這所談"},{"start":452.785,"end":471.135,"text":"所得替代的性質之下所以他其實主要的會是針對要有這個撫養的條件這不是我們自己可以想怎麼定或者我今天行政部門想怎麼定因為這還是有一個大法官的視線在那個地方那從行政部門角度我們很難去違逆大法官視線的這個條文"},{"start":475.028,"end":497.296,"text":"這個下面要闡述一個盲點不符合條例的人然後父母親也不在了然後後來是由出商帳會那個人來請領死亡祈福這個也不合法怎麼到最後由這個出後世要搬嘛所以由出商帳會的人去領死亡祈福現在是這樣在補呢這夠不合法"},{"start":501.772,"end":527.269,"text":"就是說我們的死亡幾戶包括遺屬津貼跟傷案津貼傷案津貼是說如果就是五個月如果沒有遺屬或者是遺屬沒有符合條件的人我們提高傷案津貼為十個月這樣子就是五個月變成變十個月如果他只有兄弟姊妹沒有符合我們的條件的話那就會變十個月從五個月會變十個月"},{"start":530.649,"end":545.543,"text":"好 那個你再研究一下我們來討論一下 好不好那另外一個就是救護法就是15到17歲這個我們把他也納入救護法特定對象部長你有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":546.192,"end":563.934,"text":"跟穩說明 第一個因為主要是救護法24條的特定對象主要是針對就業弱勢但是因為青年其實青年的抑制性很高其實有很多青年他整體來說他在就業市場上是很有競爭力的"},{"start":564.955,"end":584.91,"text":"但也有一些在青年上面的確會是比較就在他的在找工作上會比較弱勢一點所以我們自己是擔心因為24條他其實我們有給很多相對應的就會津貼等等的聘僱的津貼但如果我是把一整個青年全部都放進去的時候變成是這些所有的青年"},{"start":585.891,"end":606.674,"text":"他找工作等等等他都可以來申請我們的這相關的津貼的時候他可能在現有的機會如果現有的求職機會他是一個大一塊大餅的話他可能會對其他的弱勢的比方說身心障礙比方說中高齡比方說其他的這個二度就業的婦女他可能會產生一些排擠的效果所以我們自己是認為說"},{"start":608.115,"end":623.966,"text":"青年也許現在大家看到他的失業率好像比平均來說高一些這確實但是主要如果仔細去看的話他主要比較高的原因是因為他並不是因為他客觀條件上面的弱勢他比較是他在他在職壓的選擇上面還沒有定或者他在"},{"start":624.747,"end":643.306,"text":"求學跟就業之間還在猶疑在做選擇比較不是他因為他的身份上面客觀上面有哪些部分比較弱勢我自己是覺得說如果要討論的話我覺得我們可以討論但不是那麼適合把整個青年一整一非常完整的青年單獨講15到17歲的青少年你會看得到嗎"},{"start":646.958,"end":665.367,"text":"15到17歲就剛剛其實林月琦委員有講到我自己是我們自己的看法是這樣你要把完整的一整個這麼異質的青年全部放進來你就會把很多其實他明明就有很多就業他在就業上面明明是有優勢的人一樣把它放24條那這就不太符合我們其實在24條當時設計的異質"},{"start":668.908,"end":682.085,"text":"所以我們應該是要就業弱勢才把它放進來所以我覺得如果當然委員討論裡面我們可以去比較框定說哪一群人真的在就業上面是比較弱勢的那我們把它範圍給框定清楚"},{"start":682.791,"end":703.071,"text":"大家也確定這些人的確在就業商因為他的某些條件他真的會比較辛苦他真的需要政府比較多的幫忙我覺得這部分我們可以來討論可是如果完整的一個青年的概念剛才說15到29歲這個裡面涵蓋的範圍就非常非常廣可能裡面有很多是在市場上面很具競爭力的尋職的對象都在裡面"},{"start":704.053,"end":729.185,"text":"好 那最後一個問題就是今年跟去年都是補一千兩百億嘛 中央政府那這個一千兩百億是怎麼算來的是看他的財富剩餘啦還是看他那個行政院長這大概也是主席主席主席大概總體評估我們的財政狀況但是說實話因為這真的是要看財政狀況啦但是"},{"start":730.746,"end":756.094,"text":"這邊還是要說是說我們都希望未來可以增加更多可是現在在中央政府的財政狀況在這個財務法的修訂之下他其實的餘裕 預度就會大幅的降低其實我們對這回有擔憂的要努力爭取啦我們也希望能夠把中央整個中央政府的財政的預度跟體制再做得更好才會有更多的餘裕可以來撥補勞保的財務好 謝謝"},{"start":766.521,"end":766.75,"text":"宣告"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}