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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二 文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況並被質詢本次議程有柯智恩委員等21人提出質詢均經文化部部長李遠及相關人員及其答夥說明另有委員林倩琦 許新穎 陳培宇提出書面質詢決定"},{"start":1818.766,"end":1830.715,"text":"一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報三 對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆 選讀完畢謝謝請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好 謝謝那我想我們的議事錄就確定"},{"start":1848.746,"end":1875.304,"text":"那今天的議程我們繼續審查核子反應器設施管制法也就是核管法相關修正草案等五案包括委員王宏威等19人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案一案"},{"start":1876.977,"end":1898.153,"text":"委員邱振軍委員等22人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員蘇清泉等26人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案"},{"start":1900.595,"end":1919.407,"text":"委員羅志強委員等21人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員翁曉琳等19人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案"},{"start":1921.343,"end":1948.139,"text":"并审查核子反应器设施管制法相关修正草案等5案。台湾民众党党团拟据核子反应器设施管制法第6条条文修正草案一案。徐兴营委员等20人拟据核子反应器设施管制法部分条文修正草案一案。"},{"start":1949.383,"end":1959.214,"text":"委員葛如軍委員等18人擬具核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案一案"},{"start":1960.796,"end":1984.666,"text":"委員徐宇珍委員等22人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員楊瓊英委員等21人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案今天進行逐條審查"},{"start":1987.557,"end":2012.182,"text":"那我們首先介紹在場委員我們先謝謝林一錦召委范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員武力華委員劉書斌委員"},{"start":2017.072,"end":2039.266,"text":"羅志強委員徐宇貞委員張嘉靖委員我們也介紹在場與會官員我們先謝謝核能安全委員會核安會主任委員陳明貞陳竺偉"},{"start":2043.476,"end":2068.684,"text":"核能安全委員會核安會副主任委員張欣張副主委那再來是經濟部政務次長何進昌何振翅謝謝何振翅經濟部國營事業管理司副司長劉啟孝劉副司長經濟部能源署主任秘書翁素珍翁祖密謝謝"},{"start":2071.226,"end":2096.092,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司台電董事長曾文生曾董事長謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司台電副總經理徐永輝徐副總謝謝國家發展委員會產業發展處檢任繼政鄭永明謝謝法務部參事汪南君汪參事謝謝"},{"start":2100.455,"end":2128.286,"text":"好 我們也謝謝柯志恩委員到場 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝還有林佩祥委員 謝謝本案已於民國113年7月10日詢答完畢有新增台灣民眾黨黨團等五個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查"},{"start":2139.107,"end":2148.61,"text":"那我們今天有提案的委員我們可以來進行提案說明那我們是不是請徐宇甄委員進行提案說明謝謝"},{"start":2164.231,"end":2184.904,"text":"主席還有各位在場的官員還有各位同仁大家早有介於當前的國際能源的發展趨勢以及國內產業轉型跟用電結構的快速變化本席這次提出《核子反應器設施管制法》第六條的修正草案期盼能為我國的能源政策提供更具彈性的調整空間強化國家電力供應的穩定與安全"},{"start":2188.346,"end":2213.319,"text":"全球正在邁向淨零碳排而核能已經被許多先進國家重新定位為乾淨的能源2022年歐洲議會也正式將核能納入綠色能源分類而美國、日本等22國也在去年的聯合國氣候峰會共同承諾將於2050年前將核電的規模擴增三倍這一連串的國際趨勢反映出在穩定"},{"start":2215.11,"end":2232.701,"text":"尋求穩定供電與降低的碳排的雙重壓力之下核能也重新扮演不可或缺的一個角色那目前全球已經有多國的核電廠實施研議的計畫日本在112年2月底通過核電廠研議的法案允許核電廠達60年的商轉年限"},{"start":2235.583,"end":2259.778,"text":"而美国核准研疫的核反应器数量也达94个而研疫后最高运转时间也可以达80年而比利时于2022年3月决定将两座反应炉研疫10年到2035而法国政府于2030年的投资计划中也公告在确保安全的前提下延长所有可延长的核子反应器的服役期"},{"start":2261.059,"end":2278.89,"text":"因此本席認為這次的修法就是希望能夠把制度更完善一點也讓國家有更有彈性的一個方式能夠更有效率那因此本席提出這次的修正草案是將前向運轉執照之有效期最長為40年"},{"start":2280.251,"end":2286.655,"text":"其滿需繼續運轉者經營者應於執照有效期屆滿前向主管機關申請換發執照未取得換發執照前不得繼續運轉但經主管機關確認和反映設施安全無虞時得繼續運轉"},{"start":2297.921,"end":2312.326,"text":"而经营者于运转执照有效期建满后经主管机关确认核反应器设施完整性及系统功能符合法规的标准得申请再运转执照再运转有效期限最长为20年"},{"start":2314.247,"end":2329.029,"text":"而我想能源的轉型不應該只是理想的追求更必須面對現實的挑戰也希望各位委員能以理性務實的態度支持這項修正草案讓我們共同為台灣建立一個更穩定更乾淨的能源未來謝謝"},{"start":2335.148,"end":2341.661,"text":"好 謝謝許宇甄委員的提案說明我們接下來有請劉淑冰委員代表民眾黨黨團進行提案說明"},{"start":2366.455,"end":2377.539,"text":"主席還有河安會還有行政部官員各部會的首長我是列席代表還有各位委員大家早安那我今天代表的是民眾黨來對於"},{"start":2381.963,"end":2384.006,"text":"今天這關於說核子反應器的設施管制法這部分做一個提案的說明那我們最主要是針對第六條的部分做說明那我說一下這個提案的主旨是什麼因為"},{"start":2396.963,"end":2424.651,"text":"目前在全球大概有核電廠這個研議計畫是很多國家他面臨到像311的10年前的這個311的這個事件之後呢都有一些修正然後當然最重要是因為這個淨零碳排的這個影響那日本我們看到最新的消息是在112年2月的時候呢就已經通過了核電廠的研議法案大家可以知道他當初是一個核電的一個這個受災國那他就允許了核電廠研議20年"},{"start":2426.972,"end":2441.355,"text":"那這樣子呢還可以達到的說可以延長到60年的這個商轉期限那美國呢那這個是一個對我們核能的這樣這個誘的攻擊當中最重要的一個國家那美國呢核准研議的核反應"},{"start":2442.176,"end":2443.957,"text":"的這個反應堆的數量已達到94個那研議後最高的運轉時間可達80年這我想核安會或是我們原子能委員會都知道那比利時政府呢他在2022年3月的時候呢決定將兩座反應爐研議到10年然後延伸到2035年那法國這個核能大國呢他"},{"start":2466.13,"end":2481.406,"text":"在2030年的投資計畫當中在France 2030的這個公告他確保了在安全的前提下注意喔是安全的前提下呢延長所有可能延長的核質反應爐的這個服役期間那我國呢應該參酌其他"},{"start":2485.712,"end":2509.724,"text":"國家核電廠演繹的情況修法以緩解能源結構配比失當所造成的危害好那第二點呢我們所看到是核三廠呢目前在運作的一號期呢是在一一三年的七月會到期已經到期了那現行的法規當中呢將要換發執照申請的旗艦呢授權核安會以行政命令的方式去進行"},{"start":2511.285,"end":2526.493,"text":"並規定在執照屆滿前5年及應提出換照時有未到那因為這個時間可能有不同的考量但是重要的是我們提出了增修第二項就是在第6條第二項部分將本法關於執照屆期前"},{"start":2530.902,"end":2553.304,"text":"因於主管機關在規定的期限內申請換發執照的規定修正為因於執照有限有效期間屆滿一個月至六個月的時間內向主管機關申請經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時得換發執照以放寬"},{"start":2554.885,"end":2558.066,"text":"換照的申請期間那每次的換照有效運轉期間呢以10年為限那這個部分就是說也是必須要以核安為重點的考量那為避免呢我們的法規受限制於"},{"start":2570.731,"end":2577.08,"text":"導致政府上司調節能源供應配比的手段我們也新增了第三項規定使運轉執照於已建滿的核電廠得與主管機關確認核子反應爐"},{"start":2585.592,"end":2591.493,"text":"核子反應器設施安全無虞後呢再申請運轉執照那這部分也是因應到我們的核三廠的二號機到五月份的時候可能就執照到期但是如果現在的這個法令是沒辦法已經不在五年之前這樣子做這樣的一個決定那當然也是因為台灣的目前的這個能源配比當中有了相當大的一個"},{"start":2611.658,"end":2617.964,"text":"並沒有達到目前的一個需求尤其是供電的需求更重要的是還要考慮到淨零碳排的一個趨勢好謝謝好謝謝劉書斌委員進行提案說明那請"},{"start":2650.933,"end":2653.576,"text":"好現在請葛如軍委員提案說明好謝謝"},{"start":2662.947,"end":2684.106,"text":"非常感謝我想本席核子反應器設施管制法修法的重點有三點第一點現行的核管法第六條將核電廠的換照期限授權主管機關也就是核安會以行政命令的方式訂定那他在這個核子反應器設施運轉執照申請"},{"start":2686.837,"end":2702.455,"text":"和審核辦法的第16條當中有規定經營者也就是台電需於運轉執照有效屆滿前5到15年提出申請那這顯然是沒有辦法解決我國核電廠所面臨的問題"},{"start":2703.917,"end":2729.849,"text":"那先前已經有非常多的機組陸續關機核三廠的二號機將在5月17號停機那因此我們期望討論進行修法將它改為有效期間借滿前皆可提出研議申請而這樣的一個需求在各國的核電的法規以及實務的執行上也都已經逐步開始在落實"},{"start":2731.616,"end":2756.651,"text":"第二點核電廠如須研議現行的法規需待經營者也就是台電提出換照申請以後核安會才會進行各項的安全評估然而核安會身為我國核能安全的專責機關理應掌握核電廠各項設備的狀況因此修法賦予核安會主動評估的權利如果核電廠保存狀況良好"},{"start":2758.132,"end":2778.255,"text":"在核安会确认安全无虞以及它的安全性可被确认以后应可自动研议20年使其有效期限达60年有鉴于第三点有鉴于核二厂以及核三厂的一号机已经停机依现行法规将无启用之手段"},{"start":2779.376,"end":2801.088,"text":"為因應國際環境變遷緩解我國用電壓力增進我國的能源安全、國家安全、國防安全以及經濟的發展之需求修法是以停機之核電廠在經核安會確認其安全性以後得申請再運轉執照"},{"start":2803.584,"end":2831.433,"text":"在此也分享我们检视核电厂研疫的情况法国有56座运转中的反应炉平均寿命超过38年其中20座的反应炉运转都已经超过了40年截至2024年的5月份美国已经有96座的反应炉通过延长使用执照审查并且已经有66座进入了延长运转"},{"start":2832.313,"end":2856.778,"text":"可以在执照到期以后再继续使用20年其中又有22座反应炉提出执照更新申请若通过核管会也就是美国核管会的审查可以再延续再多20年等于是总共80年那已经有6座反应炉通过审查台湾的反应炉的设计跟美国反应炉一样"},{"start":2858.191,"end":2886.483,"text":"既然美国大多数的反应炉可以研译,我们也希望台湾的反应炉能够研译。在过程当中,经过台电,经过核安会,我们非常多的专业的人员持续的维护我们的核电运转的安全,到目前为止也可显见安全无虞。如果我们能够进行研译,确实的来进行安全的检测,持续完善的维护,相信可以确保核电厂的安全性。以上,谢谢。"},{"start":2891.135,"end":2915.573,"text":"好 謝謝葛如虛委員的說明好那委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分提出那我們相信核管法的"},{"start":2917.266,"end":2934.901,"text":"這個修法應該是每一個政黨都能夠參與的所以我們希望能夠在10點30分以前提出大家都可以一起來參與那我們現場也有一個倒數計時器來協助委員們確認是否還來得及提出那我們希望能夠"},{"start":2935.942,"end":2957.969,"text":"有更多的提案我們更充分的來討論那處理提案的時候如果提案委員及連署委員均不在場我們原力不以處理那我們現在開始逐條審查核子反應器設施管制法修正草案相關修正草案請議事人員宣讀條文內容"},{"start":2959.969,"end":2965.872,"text":"並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2980.787,"end":2988.931,"text":"主席那個程序問題不好意思程序問題你起來先停止宣讀啊程序問題要先處理好 主席謝謝是這樣子喔 就是我們要進行主條之前應該要先進行大體討論"},{"start":3003.737,"end":3005.539,"text":"那我想因為這個其實攸關這個全民都愛看今天這個核管法的修法所以我想是不是先進行大體討論"},{"start":3032.537,"end":3036.042,"text":"好謝謝這個提案我們先休息五分鐘可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":3063.47,"end":3068.255,"text":"先回答題討論主席有權益主席有程序問題提出主席有權益主席有權益主席有權益主席有權益主席有程序問題提出"},{"start":3080.669,"end":3100.589,"text":"有問題等休息完了再提出了五分鐘了五分鐘我們是先提出大題討論憑什麼先休息我們是先提出大題討論主席請先回應可不可以進行大題討論你要休息再休息主席請先回應可不可以進行大題討論再請要休息再休息主席已經拆定休息了我要去洗手了"},{"start":3100.709,"end":3130.04,"text":"主席不顾程序正义就罔顾就乱喊休息主席请先回应好我们倒数五分钟我们可以讨论我们就是透过休息的时间来讨论一下我们等一下大体讨论的做法不是主席我有程序关于这个程序问题应该直接主席因为刚才我们要讨论大体讨论之前也必须要先把原来的条文都念一遍不是吗没有不是喔同学如果没有这样子要怎么讨论吧不是这样先大体讨论才是主条"},{"start":3130.62,"end":3131.52,"text":"好,那我再詢問一下討論,了解,謝謝"},{"start":3162.745,"end":3163.206,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":3180.878,"end":3181.198,"text":"致電話聲音"},{"start":3210.287,"end":3220.479,"text":"我們就先給你們看三張圖案我們先給你們看一個超高度的圖案我們先給你們看一個超高度的圖案"},{"start":3240.043,"end":3240.464,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":3258.643,"end":3260.424,"text":"對,我等於就送了,不知道給不給我證據啊。"},{"start":3290.035,"end":3290.195,"text":"主席"},{"start":3318.806,"end":3325.868,"text":"以前議員票有這樣過嗎?去年嗎?就每次這個都會去年每次這個都會我記得那個OK我信你啊"},{"start":3349.141,"end":3349.521,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3392.11,"end":3393.692,"text":"現在都到了 每一節"},{"start":3410.742,"end":3417.064,"text":"好 謝謝我們休息結束因為在場剛剛有委員提議要進行討論我們依據立法院職權刑事法第九條雖然我們的大體討論跟廣泛討論一般是在院會進行但是我們也是有潛力在委員會的我們相信核管法確實是大家關注的議題我想有更多的討論也沒有不好"},{"start":3435.051,"end":3452.57,"text":"所以我們就依據立院職權刑事法的第九條我們也就把廣泛討論呢挪至委員會來進行那我們待會有要發言進行廣泛討論的委員呢請到前方登記登記時間呢到10點鐘截止那每一位討論的發言時間兩分鐘"},{"start":3460.441,"end":3489.444,"text":"那三分鐘好謝謝好那我們就三分鐘謝謝大體討論不限次數吧我想希望是以一次為主但如果還有需要後續討論我們當然也希望也許我們還有第二次發言的機會好不好我想今天我們就讓大家來討論主席你要不要具體的承諾不要說也許可能"},{"start":3489.984,"end":3507.804,"text":"好那我们就两次为准为什么是两次因为过去的惯例我们通常讨论就是两次没有什么过去的惯例你们在很多事情上都不按照惯例你们很多事情的意思都不确认了有什么惯例可言没关系我们是尊重主席好不好我们回答更多的机会讲清楚你就是尊重主席"},{"start":3508.104,"end":3514.146,"text":"好謝謝那我們就先以這個發言時間三分鐘那我們預計兩輪的討論那如果這個討論還有需要進行我們還可以再繼續討論是否繼續謝謝那我們現在有請廣泛討論發言第一位范雲委員"},{"start":3540.235,"end":3567.002,"text":"主席跟同仁大家好我認為今天昭緯排審這個條文就是很抱歉昭緯雖然是AI專家但是您在我們這個和安會教育委員會時間真的不夠久就是以上一屆我想應該是上一屆吧柯志恩委員曾經排過一次就是尋答的時候當時的問題到現在有哪一位藍委有提出來嗎"},{"start":3567.662,"end":3592.213,"text":"所以我認為今天排審這個條文呢第一個不負責任第二個非常非常不專業先講不負責任我們都記得上一次這個條文 詢答是去年是不是當時我們問了何廢料先講低階的至今沒有解方因為曾經經濟部選址在金門烏丘跟台東達人因為地方政府反對連公投都不敢辦"},{"start":3595.654,"end":3614.579,"text":"請問陳玉珍委員解決了金門烏丘的問題嗎黃建斌委員這個台東的解決了這個問題嗎核廢料至今無解今天我們武力華委員在場我們是如何對得起蘭嶼的原住民更不用講高階核廢料到現在連一個處置方式的一個"},{"start":3615.419,"end":3619.383,"text":"法規都沒有那今天我們召委要排這個你是不是先把高階核廢料的怎麼處理的這個法你先提出來如果沒有的話那真的是不負責任第二個我要講非常不專業而且是政治凌駕專業"},{"start":3632.055,"end":3647.489,"text":"這麼多國民黨委員上面寫的前言核能是綠能我要告訴大家也請我們的台電核安會經濟部告訴大家在台灣核能是綠能是個謠言你們用的這些法國政府的這些資料"},{"start":3648.73,"end":3669.146,"text":"請你回去看一下歐盟提出的歐盟分類法它第一個要符合綠能是有前提的要被納入氣候變遷減緩的項目必須至少有兩個條件不符而第一個要不造成重大傷害標準條件就是對中等低等級極低的放射性廢棄物可用的最終處置場"},{"start":3670.307,"end":3682.979,"text":"第一個必須在國內如果在國外的話兩國要達成協議而且處置國具有合適的處置設施跟計畫第二個核電廠要符合歐盟標準足以抵抗極端氣候包含地震的評估請問這兩點"},{"start":3685.441,"end":3710.303,"text":"我們做到了嗎剛剛講到的前面的不負責任到現在低階都無法移出蘭嶼高階更沒有個辦法都沒有完全不符合歐盟分類法對於能夠納入氣候變遷緩減的項目所以你就算今天你強迫通過了那對我們以出口為主的這些企業這些高階根本不符合你們所謂的這個綠能"},{"start":3712.085,"end":3724.256,"text":"那請大家告訴大家不要讓藍委的不專業的謠言繼續在台灣散佈我還有三秒鐘所以我認為昭偉您今天排這個東西不負責任第二個不專業以上謝謝范雲委員的發言那接下來我們有請林怡瑾昭偉進行廣泛討論發言"},{"start":3740.095,"end":3762.848,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天國民黨排出這個核管法的逐條審查就是為了讓核電廠演繹我想這個很清楚那我本席在這裡想要問一個最根本的問題也是最關鍵的問題就是請問核廢料怎麼處理大家有沒有想想要放哪裡啊"},{"start":3763.849,"end":3788.179,"text":"那可能大家印象很模糊我請本席再讓大家回顧一下馬雲久在2011年的時候就曾經在能源政策記者會上表示核一 核二 與核三廠不再研議國民黨黨主席朱立倫2016在當新北市市長的時候也曾說過沒有辦法處理核廢料就沒有資格使用核電還說2025一定要達到非核家園的目標"},{"start":3793.787,"end":3820.353,"text":"現在的新北市長何有宜更是多次的強調沒有能力處理核廢料就沒有資格用核電請問國民黨是忘記了嗎還是害怕想起來本席想要請教我們國民黨的委員們核電廠如果持續運行的話那持續暴增的核廢料要放在哪裡有沒有人自告奮勇說來核廢料放在我的縣市有沒有基隆"},{"start":3823.857,"end":3851.791,"text":"還是台南 新北 桃園 新竹我想喔 沒有有哪個委員可以扛下來我想大家來明確表示一下再者啦 2013年壓力測試歐盟同行審查報告就有提到台灣遭受天然危害例如地震 天災極端氣候的影響或火山爆發的風險越高於世界上許多其他的地區特別是"},{"start":3853.051,"end":3861.813,"text":"遠高於接受歐盟壓力測試的核能發電廠的歐洲國家所以我們不能跟歐洲國家來類比好那現在要討論研議的核三廠恆春的活動斷層是通過廠區的像台灣面積那麼小如果發生核災要承受風險不是只有南台灣而已是全台灣"},{"start":3873.596,"end":3903.156,"text":"所以本席認為在國際趨勢之下政府應該致力推動再生能源發展以及電網的更新才是能源政策的正本清源那政府的能源政策必須要做好妥適的能源分配那如果要談核能研議我們就要加以考量老舊核電廠的安全升級跟它的檢修的成本你如果把研議時的這個安全強化措施成本再加核廢處理的所謂的成本納入考量"},{"start":3903.676,"end":3924.683,"text":"那這個核電的成本那麼倍增根本無助於穩定電價那可以說是與國民黨核電重啟才有辦法穩定電價的說法剛好背道而馳那所以無論是說談核電研議或者重啟成本都相當相當的龐大那除了安全上不可行我想我國"},{"start":3925.643,"end":3938.534,"text":"能源的運轉政策也排擠發展再生能源的資源所以本席要強烈的呼籲在野黨就要放下所謂的修核管法這樣的想法以及發展核電的堅持我們應該把這個珍貴的資源專注在有效的能源發展的解方"},{"start":3945.78,"end":3960.715,"text":"例如我們深度節能或者能源轉型共同來支持推動再生能源才是上策那同時我們也要注重對後代的永續發展真的不要做一個不負責任的修法者以上謝謝林一錦召委的發言我們接下來有請武力華委員進行廣泛討論的發言謝謝"},{"start":3980.113,"end":3999.338,"text":"謝謝主席 大家早安提到蘭嶼 我想讓大家先看兩個字叫做暫存那大家想一想 我們的政府把核廢料暫存在蘭嶼有多久了"},{"start":4000.452,"end":4001.973,"text":"實際上根據2017年的一個原能會針對台電蘭嶼儲存廠遷廠規劃報告當時是說"},{"start":4012.952,"end":4029.581,"text":"109年3月要完成選址以及土地的取得大家都很清楚知道完全沒有解方完全沒有方法那要在114年的3月完成遷廠恰恰就是現在"},{"start":4030.962,"end":4053.692,"text":"恰恰就是現在 各位都知道不斷的跳票 完全沒有解方所以呢 今天我們在這個地方討論核電廠研議的討論我們必須要問 安全 負責任 民意支持這三個規準 我們要如何來符合"},{"start":4054.492,"end":4080.689,"text":"所以今天很感慨因為大家都在新聞上矚目泰緬的地震所造成的災情以我們核三長來講它就是位在斷層帶我們都想要一個非核的家園因為那是對我們未來的子孫的承諾但是我們今天坐在這裡我們能夠承諾什麼我們能夠保證什麼"},{"start":4083.649,"end":4112.594,"text":"那我們過去已經見證了921地震對於我們的一個威脅所以能源的政策我們應當要以安全作為一個最高的原則那這也是我們《環境基本法》第23條最重要的一個意涵所以今天在這裡我們要替我們共聊的朋友萬里、龍門、恆春地區、蘭嶼的朋友著想"},{"start":4113.474,"end":4138.795,"text":"他們常年承擔著核電所帶來的風險跟壓力但是他們到底有沒有獲得對等應有的關注這些地方的居民都跟我們一樣都希望能夠在家鄉安心的生活而不是因為核電的存在核廢料的存在讓他們的地方發展受限人口流失產業凋零"},{"start":4140.276,"end":4159.265,"text":"所以在這裡呢我們還是要來呼籲大家在能源轉型的同時我們應該要確保當地的居民他有參與討論的權利而不是被迫接受我們的決策那在這個地方呢我們再一次來討論關於核電廠研議那請大家審慎一對謝謝"},{"start":4164.744,"end":4171.811,"text":"谢谢武力华委员的发言那我们接下来有请郭玉晴委员进行广泛讨论发言"},{"start":4181.488,"end":4203.61,"text":"主席好 各位立法院的同事剛剛其實我聽了很多位的提案說明徐宇甄委員也說要確保安全劉淑檳委員代表民眾黨也說要安全無虞甚至連我們的主席也說要安全無虞的狀況之下所以大家都知道嘛 安全其實是首要的條件"},{"start":4206.201,"end":4234.346,"text":"緬甸的瑞士規模8.2的地震等同是177顆的原子彈那這個強度是強過921那也有專家已經開始示警了因為印度板塊開始推擠所謂的歐亞板塊那像內推擠的一個狀況之下有可能在短時間之內就會造成所謂區域性的轉移影響到台灣西部的整個所有的地理位置也有可能發生大地震的可能"},{"start":4235.146,"end":4253.351,"text":"我想一直拿他國的核電研議的經驗來套用在完全不同地理環境的台灣不管地震天災等等不同的一個天然環境的條件我想這個部分直接拿國外的例子來套用是完全不確實的剛剛我們提到的是安全"},{"start":4256.252,"end":4284.844,"text":"第二個最重要的就是核廢料這一次的政治對抗的一個修法不僅僅是不尊重核安管制的一個作業也刻意迴避了所有外界在對於所謂的老舊核電廠的安全以及疑慮跟監管另外還有高放長值的設置條例也都沒有進展低放長值跟懸值的問題也還沒有突破就是核廢料到底要放在哪裡"},{"start":4286.769,"end":4311.349,"text":"每個縣市都願意自己的核廢料放在自己的縣市裡頭嗎當這些問題關鍵的問題沒有被好好的討論跟好好的來檢討結果就想要用修法我就想問難道透過法令的修法就能夠來解決確保核電的研議是安全無虞的嗎我們不能這麼不負責任"},{"start":4312.25,"end":4330.219,"text":"因為我們在強調核安的風險核廢料的處理的問題我們現在完全無視這方面的專業要把所有的難題丟給下一代來承擔嗎另外老舊核電的隱憂也非常的多"},{"start":4331.019,"end":4350.499,"text":"今年3月6號 核三廠的二號機發生了火警而在近年來 所有因為核電廠的設備逐漸老化 事故頻傳光是近年來 三大核電廠已經累積有53起的異常事件"},{"start":4351.32,"end":4367.576,"text":"那如果因為這樣還要再來縮短所謂研議的審核的時間跟年限從原本的5到15年民眾黨的版本只壓縮到剩下1到6個月縮短了90%到98%的時間這不叫不負責任 那什麼才叫不負責任"},{"start":4376.118,"end":4380.622,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員進行發言我們接下來有請張雅琳委員進行發言 謝謝"},{"start":4388.897,"end":4411.266,"text":"主席我們現場的委員還有現場關心在國會頻道上面關心我們這個議題的所有的台灣的公民朋友們今天站在這裡呢我並不是只是一個立法委員的身份來發言我更是以一位母親一位深知安全無法妥協的家長站在這裡發言當我們討論核電研議最重要的問題從來不是政治"},{"start":4417.068,"end":4431.233,"text":"而是安全是我們的孩子我們的家庭我們的爸爸媽媽我們的社區能不能夠在這片土地上安心的生長這是最重要的一個基本條件可是台灣的核電廠呢在數十年前的安全標"},{"start":4432.393,"end":4451.364,"text":"是在數十年前的安全標準下去建造的過去的國民黨在建設核電廠的思維是這樣子的他只求建設能幫助他們反攻大陸不求在台灣長居久安所以當年到底有沒有依據當時的安全標準來建設一直是被公民團體"},{"start":4452.845,"end":4478.296,"text":"一直是被許多專家學者所質疑的可是畢竟過去是國民黨統治國民黨統治的戒嚴時代民意根本難以參與監督再說這些標準與今日的國際核安要求有極大的差距我想跟大家說的是即便是一般的機設設備隨著時間的老化都需要更嚴格的檢測與維護更何況是牽涉到整個國家安全的核能設施呢"},{"start":4479.318,"end":4490.354,"text":"在修法之前,我們有辦法確保核電廠符合現行的國際安全標準嗎?在修法之前,我們有辦法解決核廢料處置的問題嗎?"},{"start":4492.335,"end":4517.962,"text":"在現有的草案之中翁小林委員的版本最短的只要執照屆滿就能夠提出嚴議申請更令人擔憂的是這樣的修法完全沒有負責任的安全評估卻可能為未來的核電嚴議與重啟而鋪路大家也看到國民黨在審查相關的總預算的時候呢用提案報復不配合的行政機關如果今天法一旦通過了"},{"start":4518.482,"end":4532.181,"text":"他們會不會用各種羞辱報復的手段讓行政機關受到壓力快速通過相關檢查呢在經過充分的討論之下讓老舊的核電機組可以繼續運轉甚至讓已經除役的核電廠來重啟"},{"start":4534.926,"end":4556.536,"text":"我更要問的是雖然國民黨口口聲聲說要以安全無疑但卻從不務實解決實際的問題喊口號的修法真的能確保我們的孩子在這片土地上安全成長嗎身為母親我的擔憂不是抽象的我們的孩子在學校裡在遊戲場裡無憂無慮地奔跑他們相信"},{"start":4557.176,"end":4577.704,"text":"大人會為他們做出最安全最負責任的決定但如果我們今天讓這個法案在缺乏安全缺乏民意支持缺乏負責任的解決方法的情況下通過的話未來一旦引發核災我們要如何向孩子交代謝謝張雅玲委員發言接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":4591.697,"end":4612.286,"text":"主席 現場的各位同仁還有在線上收看轉播的所有台灣的公民我想全台灣人都非常的關注今天我們在立法院所討論的由國民黨及民眾黨委員所提出要修改核管法因為這一次的修法倘若通過"},{"start":4618.632,"end":4636.462,"text":"將嚴重的影響到台灣未來的安全過去這麼多年來為什麼這麼多台灣人為什麼這麼多在核電廠周遭的民眾站出來要反對核電我們都支持國家的能源永續"},{"start":4637.623,"end":4656.84,"text":"但是剛剛我也很同意國民黨委員所說我們應當要討論的不是意識形態而是現實那麼我們的現實是什麼現實就是目前台灣截至目前為止我們沒有核廢料的最終處置場即便核一核二廠現在核廢料都還在燃料池當中"},{"start":4664.244,"end":4667.467,"text":"都還在燃藥池當中我們連乾性儲存廠都還非常的困難該不用說最終儲置廠今天國民黨民眾黨提出來這個提案的修反內容是什麼呢我跟各位國人報告就是我們現行法規有規範核電廠如果時間到齊了要申請換照原液的話必須要在五年之前"},{"start":4690.225,"end":4697.448,"text":"按照現行法規核一核二核三通通都已經不能再申請研議了但是今天這些委員所提案的就是要放水讓現在的核電廠核三即將要到期的核三能夠有機會再次提出研議這個在安全上會有什麼樣的危險首先我剛剛看了所有這些委員的版本"},{"start":4713.795,"end":4728.275,"text":"非常負責任啊到底你現在要放水放寬你是要運轉到期的多久之前要提出申請一個人的版本都沒有寫邱正俊的版本叫做請事前申請什麼叫事前申請啊"},{"start":4731.169,"end":4739.955,"text":"我們要講的是核電廠欸安全是可以這樣子忽略的嗎你們是這樣子對待我們國家審查核電廠的安全標準的嗎好然後再來你要延長最多可以延長幾年最多可以延長幾年你們剛剛講了一堆國外的版本大家通常都有提出年限但是今天國民黨這麼多人的版本很多都非常不負責任的連延長的期限都沒寫王航威的版本沒寫羅志祥的版本沒寫啊"},{"start":4761.869,"end":4765.032,"text":"所以咧你們修法只有這樣無限期的延長嗎無限期的延長嗎你們有把安全放在考量之中嗎這樣是負責任的修法嗎這些主席我們上次在詢答的時候就提出來了核廢料要如何處置安全的審查應該包括哪些評估再來大家說要考量現實要考量務實國民黨一再地砍我們給台電的補貼請問有沒有去評估過"},{"start":4790.549,"end":4798.392,"text":"接下來要重新做這些安全審查的評估包括要送到國際上去審查再來要做耐震補強這些工程包括評估包括補強的工程你們要重啟核三你們要重啟核電廠到底要花多少錢有沒有評估過通通都沒有評估的資料現在就要喊修法這是非常不負責任的這才是一個意識形態"},{"start":4815.538,"end":4823.306,"text":"台灣的現實考量就是我們目前沒有能力處置核廢料我們沒有核廢料最終處置場蓋一個核廢料最終處置場要蓋在哪邊你們有人提議嗎請問在哪一個縣市要花多少錢這些都沒有評估你就納消法去讓核酸繼續演繹天大的笑話再來台灣還有什麼現實一定要考量就是民主"},{"start":4839.341,"end":4858.577,"text":"對中國來講 民主是意識形態對台灣來講 民主就是現實嘛我們在講的都是很務實的事情啊你河山要研議 你有問過屏東人嗎?屏東人忍耐多久了?現在目前為止 河山廠裡面的燃料棒都還在燃料室裡面而且已經就要滿出來了你要再研議怎麼處理?這燃料棒移去哪裡?移到高雄嗎?秋市委員同意嗎?柯市委員同意嗎?"},{"start":4868.188,"end":4877.631,"text":"要移到哪裡 這就是現實考量嘛你們要這個核廢料的廚製廠找到哪一個縣市願意來設置嗎這個就是民主 這個就是現實你們要提這個修法之前不得不考量核電廠演繹在台灣的現實沒有安全 沒有民主我們堅決反對台灣的核電廠演繹"},{"start":4893.363,"end":4897.931,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員的發言接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員進行發言 謝謝謝主席"},{"start":4907.932,"end":4916.278,"text":"我在這邊真的要很語重心長的要提醒國中兩黨提案的委員政治不能凌駕在專業與安全之前我們不能穴足勢旅我們民眾的安全健康是唯一不能為了政治目的而修法關於核電演繹關於核電再運轉這個議題攸關民生對於核電廠附近的民眾生活安全乃至於全台的民眾的生命安全"},{"start":4936.434,"end":4939.858,"text":"跟健康都跟核電廠的安全維護息息相關我們在談核電再運轉在談研議這個議題之前本席認為要考量的一定是最現實的問題就是我們核廢料的階段處理目前在核一廠及核二廠的燃料池都已經滿足"},{"start":4955.456,"end":4961.561,"text":"那其中合一廠的乾式儲存廠從99年就要來興建但後續卻因為水保計畫的問題跟新北市政府陳送多年後來在107年開始台電提出溯源行政訴訟在112年台北高等行政法院判決台電勝訴新北市政府應該核定水保計畫在113年才完成"},{"start":4983.658,"end":4989.143,"text":"耗時高達11年這也顯示核廢料的處理跟地方的民意是無法取得共識光是室外的這個乾儲場就已經有難以興建的問題那這個高放射性的核廢料的中期暫時儲存場最終處置應該設在哪裡是必須我們必須要很謹慎思考以及面對的問題"},{"start":5007.921,"end":5036.433,"text":"而後續也必定要長時間的跟社會來進行妥善的溝通因此在沒有辦法提出妥善處理核廢料的這個前提之下不應該再增加核廢料的數量我們的民眾我們的鄉親也不會贊成這樣子倉促的這樣子的修法所以真的要再一次提醒國眾兩黨提案的委員我們不能罔顧民眾的權益我們不能犧牲全台人民的生命安全生命健康"},{"start":5038.055,"end":5048.459,"text":"在台灣這樣子的地理環境 處在太平洋火山地震帶本來就時常有地震的情形 近年來也更是頻繁的發生規模6以上的淺層地震在核電廠建築本身持續老舊的情況下 造成的安全疑慮也越來越大當初設置核電廠的時候 並沒有評估附近斷層的這些因素考量"},{"start":5061.303,"end":5064.165,"text":"合一合二陸續發生過反應爐的爐酸斷裂爐心側板裂紋等設備老化的這個問題如果真的要再運轉勢必要經過全盤的大修我們如何能夠確保安全再者"},{"start":5076.394,"end":5101.811,"text":"全世界只有台灣的核電廠燃料棒使用完畢之後還放在這個燃料池裡面滿儲而將使用過的燃料棒一直放在反應爐心裡面不取出造成核能安全的這些隱憂這也是跟後來這個後續乾式儲存廠的新建延宕中期暫時儲存以及最終儲置廠持續未能有進度有關那在持續的後"},{"start":5104.052,"end":5112.876,"text":"這些相關的處理沒有辦法取得共識沒有辦法跟地方有溝通的這個共識之前呢我們後續的這個核廢料儲存廠選址沒有辦法能夠得到民眾的這個支持沒有民意的支持我們不能讓核電再運轉我們必須要守護台灣的健康台灣人民的健康我們要守護我們台灣的安全"},{"start":5127.742,"end":5137.167,"text":"所以我要再次的提醒提案的國民黨委員民眾黨委員政治不能凌駕在安全與專業之前以上謝謝陳秀寶委員的發言接下來有請陳培宇委員進行發言"},{"start":5160.131,"end":5179.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席在剛剛開會之前我們收到了一個國民黨提出來的修正動議我要唸給大家聽因為我相信現在在看線上直播關心這個議題的朋友手上應該沒有這份資料這份資料修正動議提案人林佩祥基隆的立法委員"},{"start":5181.155,"end":5207.231,"text":"簽這個修正動議的附和的委員有黃建豪葉遠之廖偉祥劉許廷柯之恩委員我想請這些委員回應我你們在簽這個修正動議的時候你們所關心的到底是核廢料還是核安問題還是社會溝通你們都已經找到共識了呢你們跟你們選區的選民都說好了嗎我們來看一下他的修正動議是這樣寫的原本在第六條的寫法是說經營者"},{"start":5208.752,"end":5234.531,"text":"因于主管机关规定之期限内申请换发执照这句话所对应的意思是在相关的执法当中我来念给大家听执法所对应的是核子反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条原来的写法是核子反应器设施运转执照有效期间累积达40年仍需继续运转者"},{"start":5235.631,"end":5254.703,"text":"經營者應該在執照有效期間屆滿前5年到15年填具核磁反應器設施運轉執照換照申請書可是在林沛翔委員你的修正動議版本裡面把剛剛主管機關應於規定之期限內這句話改成只要應就可以了"},{"start":5255.143,"end":5264.306,"text":"也就是應該申請換發執照也就是他認為有這個必要就可以應申請換發執照也就是如果國民黨今天應要強行表決通過這個修正動議就會把5到15年我剛剛所念這個執法的內容給拔掉了"},{"start":5270.948,"end":5294.489,"text":"也就是說過去你們現在的國民黨主席朱立倫過去的新北市長他所口口聲聲在意的核安核廢料社會共識的問題今天所有坐在現場的國民黨委員你們完全不用理會朱主席過去給你們的建議我還念給大家聽你們可能當時不認識當時的朱主席我也不認識但是我們來所有的資料都會留下記錄"},{"start":5296.011,"end":5316.324,"text":"2012年的朱立倫說只要我擔任市長一天就不會讓核四運轉沒有核安就沒有核能2013年的朱立倫說如果無法處理核廢料憑什麼使用核能有核安問題核四就不應該存在到了2015年的朱立倫繼續說非核家園是全國共識"},{"start":5317.785,"end":5332.041,"text":"甚至在2010年到2018年這麼長的時間他擔任新北市長他堅持不核發甘氏儲存廠執照最終導致核二廠提早停機除役"},{"start":5333.328,"end":5355.873,"text":"我想要請新北的葉元芝委員你今天沒有來但沒有關係我要告訴你曾經葉元芝有來謝謝我要提醒你你也簽了這一份修正動議剛剛所有的國民黨委員你們都簽了你們的黨主席在2010到2018年擔任新北市長所有提出的核安核廢料社會共識你們完全不在意"},{"start":5356.733,"end":5381.525,"text":"你們可以不用在意你們黨主席我也不在意但是我們在意的是社會共識跟溝通我們在意的是民意如果你們今天要說這個版本 應要強行通過請你們站出來面對全國人民你們如何處理核廢料 核安問題還有社會共識還是你們已經習慣了蠻橫通過所有你們想要通過的東西不用跟全國人民交代不用面對你們的民意也不用面對台灣人的下一代謝謝謝謝陳培鈺委員的發言"},{"start":5386.633,"end":5413.235,"text":"我們接下來有請謝榮介委員發言全國的好朋友大家早安"},{"start":5415.132,"end":5439.391,"text":"例如說味噢中味噢,不喝咖啡酒,喝茶也要吃一些芙蕾牛,安全是不可怕的,不安全就不可能有負擔,當然的啊!這郵訂房的課程,還在這裡講得那麼大大叫,要安全"},{"start":5441.69,"end":5447.894,"text":"老總統曾經說過,不排除婦人的可憐,再多使用婦人我們今天修法,就是迷霧中流萬一很緊急,沒有用婦人的時候要怎麼做?所以法律要先救援,不是今天立法,今天就使用婦人包括婦人的恩怨"},{"start":5469.415,"end":5485.704,"text":"要經過最起碼要有一千三百行的測試一千三十八行的漢堡醫生安全測試通過包括他的頭目 胸部 脊椎 腕鑽 弓弦 頂頂可以說是非常非常多"},{"start":5496.189,"end":5518.183,"text":"尤其我們的美國大人已經跟我們說了,不用煩惱,要給我們收聽我們看這個美國兄哥倒頂,民進黨就吃美國白痴了大汗今天美國大人已經一理財,財理商跟你說沒有問題,no problem做你安心,結果"},{"start":5521.332,"end":5543.07,"text":"你還在這裡說這麼多 安全 安全 再安全 今天如果不安全 婦人才啟動嗎民進黨撲到他的新主牌 說李鴻 李柏妮被婦人 今年五月就達成了可是我站一個做爸爸的立場 在這裡 我反而我的家純負擔一直加重下去"},{"start":5544.611,"end":5552.857,"text":"所以你為了這個新珠牌,今年五月已經達成了,達到目標,不用再讓我們假龍飛三年,中間一條白青藥,這是最大的一條錢。"},{"start":5558.795,"end":5585.619,"text":"所以如果法定可以求完,那麼阿伯高級的福田廠我們提出申請,不是提出申請就可以繼續運轉的要經過安全的設置,我們有原住民委員會,還有國際來監督我們有很多學者專家,隆重對安全提出保證沒有安全,當然沒有核能,沒有衝突啦"},{"start":5587.281,"end":5602.514,"text":"有人說歐明對這個婚姻的看法不一樣 我跟大家報告歐明目前對於這個婚姻的行善 他的轉世明前期白鳳龍比較新的 是有這樣可能 但是他現在準備"},{"start":5607.079,"end":5626.686,"text":"要靠著他 打敗後的婦人 是不是身為歷典現在在討論中 但風雄內 是傾向最好的定位是歷典所以後面的苦勢 我們要有理解所有的學者專家 也都針對這樣的理解你想想 他的打敗 比邵家俗還減了很多"},{"start":5631.087,"end":5634.872,"text":"一台LNG全六點九萬噸的駕駛進來 都要有二十四萬噸的坦白"},{"start":5638.581,"end":5665.461,"text":"所以從來我們沒有這樣收銷,我們國的企業會外銷到澳洲到美國到世界各國,只有這個唐水去求你就身分不符了所以造成我們家屬的用錢、生活負擔會增加造成我們台南這裡的小吃店這麼美好的美食,只有家屬企業、電子企業我告訴你,你們要來我們台南觀光,你有哪個客戶"},{"start":5666.622,"end":5675.49,"text":"所以要專貼性來考慮 想改修的電我們不用 最主要政府過程糾結太陽能一度要到五個 人家印度一度電到一個 台六個 日本兩個 香港的三個 三個都是太陽能的熱電 我們買一度差不多五個"},{"start":5688.142,"end":5696.189,"text":"這樣比較不會倒 當然會倒啊 最終會扶寧 如果安全今天想法就是說 將來扶寧在安全之下所以我們繼續推動他的演繹也好 心情也好但是若沒有這個法律 若沒有通過這裡"},{"start":5706.156,"end":5723.145,"text":"事實上,現在比較成長、比較要賺,我告訴你,擴大你會賺不到錢。那時候全台灣民營的危機,企業的危機、生存的危機、民生的危機、國家的危機,包括未來的AI、未來的軍工業、未來的電子炮、電競,都要吃電。"},{"start":5727.13,"end":5738.098,"text":"你是要用什麼來對抗中國大陸對我們的壓迫所以有時候最放鬆的、最冷靜的做媽媽的立場跟做爸爸的立場其實是一樣的我們都出自於愛啦謝謝謝榮介委員發言接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"},{"start":5761.55,"end":5785.569,"text":"民進黨正選擇跟世界的潮流對撞這個如果不是笨就是壞全世界都要緩回核能只有一個民進黨現在還抱著他的神主牌美國重啟核能了日本重啟核能了南韓重啟核能了全世界都要緩回核能"},{"start":5787.68,"end":5791.581,"text":"連美國老大哥AIT的處長古立仁都清楚的講核能 穩定 便宜他都可以幫台灣的忙全世界的先進國家都在用民進黨到底是怎樣是公還是派你們到底是你們抱著你們的神主牌你們現在講有安全 核廢料沒地方去"},{"start":5814.468,"end":5826.635,"text":"那全世界民主這麼先進的國家美國為什麼認為是安全的日本認為安全全世界民主進步的國家都認為是安全的人家核廢掉都可以處理結果台灣不行嗎這樣的民進黨政府早就下台讓會做的人來做嘛是賴清德不行還是今天民進黨站在這邊的立委"},{"start":5835.899,"end":5858.975,"text":"還在問以前喪屍機的問題所有先進國家都說是安全的都說核威大可以處理為什麼民進黨到今天還在講不能處理呢那為什麼美國有辦法處理日本有辦法處理第二個你們不要跟世界對撞的同時第二個你們不要站在漲電價這一邊"},{"start":5861.718,"end":5873.949,"text":"主席請維持秩序麻煩尊重發言者剛剛我們所有的發言我們都尊重謝謝你們在罵在野黨的立委說人家都沒有干擾你們為什麼要這樣吵呢第二個上個禮拜電價審議委會做了一個大家鬆了一口氣的這個決定他推翻了台電要漲價那要怎麼樣不要漲價可以降電價"},{"start":5891.189,"end":5916.684,"text":"用核能啊不只美國老大哥跟你講啊投資權賴清德總統聘請的國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人召集人是賴清德賴總統欸他說你只要用核電不只安全可以省下N個千億民進黨政府這幾年把核一廠核二廠核三廠的一號機停掉五月二十七號馬上最後的二號機也停掉了"},{"start":5921.633,"end":5933.301,"text":"一度電 核電一塊多 線上的電三塊多 每用核電就可以賺兩塊核一核二三加起來四百多一度電 一千億耶民進黨 你們多挖了一個一個洞的一千億出來 每一年要多一千億"},{"start":5945.063,"end":5973.175,"text":"那在漲電價你們要賠嗎我今天鄭重的呼籲這次好不容易電價穩定委員會擋下來了十月份如果在漲電價找民進黨今天派的立委要錢一年一千億你們怎麼跟人民交代另外你們是跟都市的民意對撞台灣最近這幾年的民意調查用核電的都佔多數啊我們還通過了公投欸以核養綠欸"},{"start":5975.578,"end":6002.395,"text":"所以從世界的潮流從電價不要漲還可以降到多數的這個名利我請民進黨政府趕快閒來熱馬今天在野黨是非常負責的提出了提案包括民眾黨本來你如果借期前要五年我們把它縮短為借期前一個月到六個月全世界先進國家都已經在研議啦日本"},{"start":6003.874,"end":6022.63,"text":"在112年的2月份就通過 允許核電廠延綠20年就從40延長到60年 美國現在通過的有96座 延綠最長的可以到80年我們現在核一核二三都是用40年啊美國可以延 日本可以延 為什麼台灣不行最重要最重要的 我請前面一起來檢視"},{"start":6029.229,"end":6053.6,"text":"如果電價再漲 請對著民進黨政府跟民進黨今天發言的立委他們為什麼讓我們電價一直漲 造成我們產業的負擔造成我們民生的負擔 請民進黨來負責任最後我做一個總結 今天法案過了主動檢查還是在民進黨執掌的手上啊要去檢查有安全 要不要提出申請是民進黨的政府要做這件事欸"},{"start":6054.864,"end":6067.248,"text":"所以民進黨不要汙名化今天的修法請你們跟人民站在一起跟降電價站在一起跟世界潮流站在一起不要那麼壞不要那麼笨謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員發言我們接下來有請葉元之委員進行發言"},{"start":6084.485,"end":6106.058,"text":"我剛剛聽了很多民進黨委員的發言我不知道民進黨委員是不是有搞錯我們今天修法的條文今天不是在討論說合二合三是不是直接延役今天是在討論說要給一個彈性就是說之後如果真的評估之後覺得可以延役的話讓他不會因為法規的限制而無法延役"},{"start":6106.758,"end":6125.35,"text":"但是最後能不能研議成功台電也要提出申請啊行政院也要合可啊社會也要有共識啊也必須要確保核能安全跟核廢料的處理啊所以我不知道剛剛罵了半天到底是在罵什麼啦那我就講幾個民進黨政務官自己講的話"},{"start":6126.772,"end":6147.751,"text":"郭志輝,經濟部長郭志輝,這民進黨的政務官啊他說新核能和傳統核能都要秉持核安、核廢料跟社會共識如果可以的話,他也不排斥啊國發貴主委劉敬欽,說核能是低碳的能源能不能變成綠能,要理性的從產業來看"},{"start":6151.755,"end":6172.044,"text":"鼓勵員在跟韓國瑜院長會面的時候除了關心我們的國防之外也非常關心台灣能不能穩定供電還有穩定的核能發展所以其實大家都很關注這個議題嘛那今天只是在討論要不要讓資格鬆綁而已啊"},{"start":6173.157,"end":6196.389,"text":"那至於說民進黨立委關心的核廢料那當然核廢料要提出處理的方式才能研議啊當然核安要確保啊這個我們通通都支持啊當時新北市長朱立倫在新北市他說的原話是什麼他說沒有核安沒有核電沒有核廢料的處理沒有核電對啊有什麼錯嗎"},{"start":6198.106,"end":6218.735,"text":"所以如果今天即便是我們修法通過了核二核三要研議還是要處理核安跟核廢的問題嘛所以這沒有衝突好嗎反倒是我覺得民進黨要回應社會的期待是說到底我們台灣能不能夠維持穩定的供電我們現在政府定的目標是2030綠能要達到30%"},{"start":6222.898,"end":6228.532,"text":"但是蔡英文總統她在過去八年上從畢路下黃泉啊"},{"start":6230.18,"end":6257.772,"text":"發展光電發展綠電大概綠電只增加5%左右那現在根據很多科學研究顯示啊氫能不知道什麼時候可以發展地熱台灣地熱也不夠所以未來如果要靠光電要靠風力發電要到2030年可以到綠電30%我覺得大家都是非常質疑的啦另外如果綠能沒有辦法到30%的話那我們現在還是要火力全開嗎"},{"start":6259.332,"end":6281.2,"text":"火力全開的結果就是很難達到低碳很難達到2050年的淨零碳排電價也會持續攀高所以在大家對能源政策有這麼大的疑慮之下現在只是讓申請核電的條件鬆綁保持一個彈性"},{"start":6282.04,"end":6307.136,"text":"如果說 民進黨可以確保供電無虞綠電真的可以到30%在2030年的時候可以提供大家低電價 低成本然後對環境沒有污染不會影響到人類 人民健康的電幹嘛要用 幹嘛要用核電 幹嘛要研議所以我希望 大家務實的討論這個問題啦希望民進黨立委可以跟你的政務官一樣都是理性啦 而不是一堆口水 謝謝"},{"start":6310.579,"end":6313.041,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員的發言接下來有請劉書斌委員進行發言"},{"start":6328.871,"end":6354.919,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天討論的沒有錯是核能設施這個安全的問題但是我們在討論核安問題的時候最重要的是要針對整體的能源來討論那在這個情況之下整體問題討論我們現在核能能源呢有包括的是化石性能源 再生能源 還有核能那這個情況之下呢尤其是我們遇到一個趨勢是在淨零碳排"},{"start":6355.859,"end":6362.003,"text":"那淨零碳排當中我們已經在我們氣候邊界意義法都已經說明了是要在2050年的時候達到跟全世界趨勢是一樣的那大家就要想想看在淨零碳排這個情況到底是我們最近長久以來的氣候邊界的風災水災的風險跟災害的損失跟我們目前到現在已經有核能廠的這個情況之下"},{"start":6381.354,"end":6403.459,"text":"他的核災跟風險整算的比例要做一個最重要的考量才對好那這個情況我們更重要是一個完整的核能政策他必須考慮到的是要有能夠付得起的還要是安全供應的第三個還要是他能夠是永續的那永續包括是什麼無污染的要低碳的甚至說碳中和的然後再就是所謂的"},{"start":6405.879,"end":6418.397,"text":"能夠在其他災害的這個環境的災害的部分呢要去減少好那在這個情況之下呢我們就可以看到的是目前我們的能源供應的部分是二台"},{"start":6419.52,"end":6442.239,"text":"我們的中央研究院已經說出來了我們目前的台灣整個發電是2800億度的發電那未來到2050年的時候是要到5000億的發電那這種狀況之下的時候所造成的這樣的結果你還在將近快要一倍的這樣情況那目前我們看到的上個禮拜的時候"},{"start":6443.18,"end":6467.348,"text":"台電只說的是未來呢是要在以每年到2030年的時候2.8的百分比在成長但是到2050年的時候怎麼辦呢所以在我們遇到這個情況之下的時候我們更要討論到我們去年在和在GemWatch在氣候變遷大會當中所做出來的一個報告是說在64個國家評比當中我們的排碳的這個績效的部分是在排名60是倒數的遇到這麼大的問題的時候我們沒有辦法去面對那"},{"start":6472.412,"end":6484.726,"text":"是不是政府應該好好去處理更重要的是環境基本法當中沒有錯是非核家園非核家園放進去的但是民進黨作為一個執政黨你非核家園當中的這些有關於永久儲存場的這個問題"},{"start":6488.05,"end":6500.918,"text":"只是我推給在野黨現在呢你不是應該自己去想辦法去做藍綠的所有的問題而且現在就算不見得合適其他不再見得合適沒有處理但是最重要的是這是處理長還是要處理啊執政黨請拿出解決問題的能力而且好好跟我們面對淨零碳白的這樣的一個壓力謝謝謝謝劉書斌委員的發言我們接下來有請柯志恩委員進行發言"},{"start":6521.4,"end":6531.803,"text":"等一下我把這個先移開謝謝我現在真的只能嘆一口氣這個議題當然從我第九屆來當立委的時候就已經開始來討論然後不管是藍綠或是白大家各有各的立場我們的專委已經開了公聽會大家可以聽到的不同的學者專家不管在做如何的一個承諾不管在做任何世界的一個趨勢顯然我們的裂痕還是存在"},{"start":6549.989,"end":6563.568,"text":"我今天站在這個地方我真的要問一下我們坐在對面的核安會你們的角色你們的責任在哪裡不管是低階核廢料或是高階核廢料我們按照行政院非核小組討論的一個結果"},{"start":6565.45,"end":6590.456,"text":"就是要先透過中期儲存場來做處理我們要求台電要在小組會議當中提出中期選址的方案報告這個是一個事實但是呢非核小組到現在呢從來沒有再召開過會議你們可以問問河安會我問一下河安會是不是你們到現在為止都沒有發函請行政院再召開第七次的小組會議"},{"start":6592.08,"end":6612.282,"text":"四年過去了說不開就是不開現在是行政院在消極擺爛呢還敢說你們沒有處理有沒有在處理核廢的問題你放任我們藍綠白的立委每個人都認為自己提出來是最專業的結果最專業的核安會還有我們行政院的非核小組你們到底角色在哪裡"},{"start":6613.323,"end":6641.164,"text":"有关于这个核飞药的问题有关于中期储存场的问题不是就是要让政府找专业人来告诉我们吗然后呢我们的专业小组再怎么样你放任我们从头到尾一直在这边吵吵到第二轮发言第三轮发言还是不会有结果所以说呢拿出一点核含味该有的该发函请行政院找专业小组来就该发函不要告诉我们到四年过去了什么都没有做这才是一个事实"},{"start":6642.225,"end":6662.385,"text":"而且呢我必须要说如果我们核安会真的有尬词疑点的话说实在的这些所谓的年限等等问题在第16条在这个所谓的申请审核办法当中也就是主管机关你们只要同意经过专业只要你们同意了自己内部研议修改就可以了"},{"start":6662.785,"end":6684.309,"text":"你放任我們拿著現在這個法規在這個地方是不需要修過立法院你們當然有最專業的你們會考量我們的安全你會考量我們所有大家所討論的這些安全上的意義你們就應該用專業的角度給予我們大家最大的一個建議怎麼可能坐在那個地方一群人坐在那個地方放任我們在各自來說自己的一個論點這個部分我說實在的三輪四輪"},{"start":6687.35,"end":6701.711,"text":"到最后结果没有从第九届到现在都已经没有结果了未来的结果是什么我觉得你如果认为真的是专业可能不行的话就直接告知不要放任我们的这地方继续浪费我们大的时间最后我要特别提到"},{"start":6702.352,"end":6717.604,"text":"每个人都要诉诸最大的名义我还是要提醒2018年16号公投案对于你说要废除电业法第95条全部停止在114年全部停止所谓的核能电厂对不起5895560人是认为不应该而401万的人中间差了188万什么叫做最大的名义世界在运转"},{"start":6730.134,"end":6757.51,"text":"时代在往前走所以说呢每个人对于和已经有不同的一个见解但是呢我们完全同意完全需要站在和安的角度完全站在安全的角度我现在就恳请和安会发函给行政院非核小组请他告诉我们一个最后的决断的结果不行就不行就大胆的告诉大家行就告诉我们你们结果到底在哪里不要放任我们再继续我告诉你到第十九届还是没有办法得出一个结果啦谢谢"},{"start":6759.968,"end":6762.782,"text":"謝謝柯子的委員發言接下來有請黃建豪委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":6772.759,"end":6799.471,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們今天討論的是核子反應器設施管理辦法的第六條那本席有提所謂修正動議那今天提這個修正動議提這個修法的版本最主要的目的是提供台灣的能源多一種選項而已今天並不是要討論說核四要不要重啟核三要不要研議核一核二怎麼樣今天討論的是我們這一條我們要不要放寬所謂申請的年限因為在原條文裡面是說經營者要主管期關規定的期限內"},{"start":6801.932,"end":6825.797,"text":"申請換發執照但是我們眼見這個主管機關規定的期限內我們合一合二合三合四等等的期限已經要到期了所以我們只是修說因申請我個人提出來版本是修因申請換發執照就提供一個彈性申請換發執照的空間我不是說今天馬上就要讓他申請換發執照而是說未來有一天如果社會有共識如果執政黨覺得"},{"start":6827.017,"end":6852.2,"text":"核安沒問題了之後我們總是要有一個法令讓它能夠重啟吧那你今天如果把這個定時說是要在主管機關規定的期限內定時之後那以後要重啟是沒有機會啦所以這是第一個部分那第二個到底核電安不安全我想依據國際原子能總數統計到今年2025年3月為止全世界目前還有416座核反應爐其中"},{"start":6853.041,"end":6870.476,"text":"超過40年以上的190座 佔比超過45.7%50年以上的有44座 佔比達到10.6%那裡面也不乏許多先進國家 科技強國我想要問的是 今天我們台灣是一個怎麼樣有黑科技的地方嗎"},{"start":6871.377,"end":6898.163,"text":"世界各國都能夠處理核廢料都能夠啟用核電的地方那為什麼台灣就沒辦法還是我們有比核能更好更安全更強的發電模式可以取代核能發電這樣的技術看起來目前是沒有的那很多人在談說核廢料怎麼處理那我問的是說此時此刻台灣有八成使用火力發電的時候怎麼沒有人問說請問一下碳氧化物 氮氧化物 硫氧化物怎麼處理"},{"start":6898.803,"end":6919.548,"text":"他沒有處理啊他就排出來排到空氣中怎麼處理難道大家多買一些空氣清淨機嗎還是大家多跑一點馬拉松多吸一點廢氣進去都沒有人處理你明天討論這個問題但是大家一直糾結在何非要怎麼處理何非要怎麼處理我想世界各國先進國家都有提供很多方式了我想法國以法國為例啊我在這個公開資訊我想原始人總統提供相關的資料"},{"start":6920.228,"end":6942.433,"text":"核廢料他們經過再處理技術之後有96%的鈾和布它可以被回收利用製成新的核燃料持續提供電力我想其他先進國家這幾年下來已經努力地發展核廢料回收核廢料再利用的技術那我們是不是要繼續活在2011年活在2011年那個時期"},{"start":6944.813,"end":6970.858,"text":"活在20年前10年前對核能理解還是應該進到2025年了因為剛剛很多委員也提到說2011年馬英九講什麼2016年朱立倫講什麼拜託一下那都10幾20年前的事情了現在是2025年應該有新的科技應該有新的方式可以面對核能技術所以我拜託大家我們提的修法是針對換發執照把它放寬要不要啟用我們的確可以討論但是我覺得至少要給核能一條活路以上 謝謝"},{"start":6972.976,"end":6977.821,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言待會有請汪小林委員發言接著我們還有羅廷維委員發言謝謝"},{"start":6993.465,"end":7020.786,"text":"今天談核電廠研議條例的法案修法我必須要講台灣的能源到目前為止有96%都是仰賴進口我們台灣需要能源自主不管是從國安的考量或是從社會安全國民健康的考量都必須要能夠有穩定的能源自主的條件"},{"start":7021.667,"end":7038.835,"text":"到底我們台灣的核安標準夠不夠嚴謹我們的核電廠是不是真的有安全有危險之餘這個問核安會最清楚啊我們台灣的核安會從之前叫原子能委員會到現在核安會"},{"start":7040.685,"end":7062.174,"text":"這幾十年來他們難道沒有認真負責盡職的去看好我們的核電廠嗎我們的核電廠是出了什麼大問題嗎如果說真的有出了什麼問題我告訴各位民進黨政府已經執政今天是已經第九年了核電廠真的有問題為什麼不提早把核電廠就關掉民進黨的委員啊無知無視欠缺科學知識"},{"start":7071.158,"end":7095.643,"text":"也欠缺民主素雅他們不了解現在的核電的這個科學已經發展到什麼程度了他們的思想觀念仍然只停留在三四十年前說核電廠危險不安全你們不是也在這片土地上面生活了三四十年有不安全嗎"},{"start":7097.844,"end":7117.943,"text":"反倒是在民進黨現在推動的非核家園非核政策底下台灣的老百姓得肺腺癌的比例已經高於所有癌症的第一名我們多少的年輕小孩有呼吸道疾病"},{"start":7119.643,"end":7133.933,"text":"這比例非常非常之高為什麼會有這樣的情況不就是你民進黨推動的這個非核家園搞到現在就是永碳政策高碳政策一大堆PM2.5的數值它的這個比例非常高是你們讓台灣人失去健康"},{"start":7146.176,"end":7172.507,"text":"讓大家這個得肺腺癌的危險比例增高今天邀請全國的民眾都要記清楚這一群反健康反科學反民主的民進黨委員的臉孔是他們讓我們的國人得到肺腺癌讓他們我們的小孩得到這個呼吸道的傳染病"},{"start":7175.011,"end":7194.327,"text":"这群没有知识反科学反民主不顾国人健康的民进党委员请大家真的要好好记住他们的脸孔我们今天走的是一个世界符合世界潮流世界趋势"},{"start":7195.58,"end":7221.236,"text":"全世界的國家現在都重返核能看看日本韓國美國歐盟的國家大家是不是都是提高核電的比例不要再說核電廠不安全問問台電吧問問經濟部問問核安會我們的台電我們的核電廠到底安不安全這不是你們這一群民進黨委員說不安全就不安全的"},{"start":7223.168,"end":7228.432,"text":"好 以上謝謝謝謝翁曉琳委員發言接著有請蘿婷可不可以請這個發言不要做這種人身攻擊什麼叫民進黨讓台灣人得肺腺癌你有任何的根據嗎你是醫生嗎怎麼可以做這樣的指控呢"},{"start":7239.901,"end":7244.725,"text":"我想每一位委員的發言我們都尊重前面每一位委員的發言我們也都沒有打擾"},{"start":7267.452,"end":7282.222,"text":"前面的委員也都有各種發言我想我們尊重發言的委員請尊重主席 謝謝我們接下來有請羅體委委員進行發言 謝謝主席還是沒有處理不好意思主席你還是沒有處理喔"},{"start":7286.86,"end":7312.594,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我想剛剛大家都在討論我也必須講一句話我們剛剛也有其他的委員我沒有要針對但是就事實來討論也有其他的委員在說在二三十年前國民黨興建了這一個核能發電是以反攻大陸為基礎有沒有安全的可能性這樣子也沒有事實也是在潑髒水的一個情況之下沒有任何的科學依據來定調"},{"start":7314.355,"end":7340.27,"text":"我想在這個時機點我們希望能夠好好的來討論核能安不安全 核能要不要研議我們先講結論剛剛已經有許多的委員都在說了今天我們只是賦予了彈性我也曾經在這邊問過主管機關主管機關很清楚的也回答第一 當我們今天修法以後是不能強制去使用"},{"start":7341.09,"end":7359.622,"text":"而是要透過台電還要選擇要不要去申請展延再來河安會還要再去評估能不能安全在這樣子的前提之下今天國民黨並不是要去強制不安全或者是有疑慮我們強制使用"},{"start":7360.422,"end":7374.734,"text":"所以我們回歸理性再來討論今天就很簡單賦予彈性國民黨就是萬惡嗎最後不也是要交給台電不也是要交給核安會去做相關的評估嗎再者我們不是很希望"},{"start":7375.515,"end":7390.289,"text":"台積電能夠持續的在台灣穩定的擴廠增加嗎而台積電有相關的一些新聞指出在所有的廠區裡面就台灣來說它的電價是非常高的"},{"start":7391.03,"end":7419.028,"text":"我們要發展這樣子的高AI科技我們甚至想要邀請國際的AI科技大廠來到台灣半導體產業帶來的電力需要快速的成長目前的能源能夠補足嗎所以我們更希望何安衛如何看待我國能源轉型中的一個角色我們是否能夠如美國、法國、日本等國在安全無虞的情況之下審慎的去延長核電廠的使用年限"},{"start":7420.309,"end":7433.017,"text":"剛剛我們也看到有女性的委員作為母親我相信大家都是為了下一代為了孩子但是我們男性的委員我們也是為了下一代為了孩子啊"},{"start":7433.973,"end":7450.98,"text":"我來自台中有人說沒有討論沒有安全我們要問問大家在台中火力發電廠的情況之下在所謂的在增加了天然氣機組結果我們的火力發電竟然燃煤機組不會"},{"start":7452.681,"end":7472.443,"text":"停止不會廢除而是備而不用在這樣子的情況之下有問過台中人嗎有讓台中人來決定嗎我們台中人享受這些空污的時候我們能夠為自己發聲嗎所以今天我們站在這裡作為台中的立法委員拜託如果討論我們的核廢料"},{"start":7474.025,"end":7495.771,"text":"要怎麼處理我絕對支持但是也拜託你幫我們討論台中的空汙該如何處置我們該如何幫我們台中人的健康安全來做第一審慎思考這也是應該列入一起討論我想每個人都要安全但是每個人都要健康那今天台中人的健康放在哪裡我希望大家一起來討論謝謝"},{"start":7497.438,"end":7521.257,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷惠委員的發言我們今天都這個剛剛我們已經看到了我們也充分發言了我們的這個討論核管法從第九屆到現在包含這個會期應該說上一個會期在7月10號我們也巡達完畢所以我想我們就進入第二輪的時間那第二輪的時間呢我們就希望控制在一分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7524.754,"end":7537.507,"text":"主席 主席第二輪的發言時間本來就會比第一輪更短沒有什麼沒有 本來這是我們剛剛有跟這個議事人員都提過了我們有 比較短三分鐘你可以兩分五十九秒兩分五十九秒也是比較短我想根據我們的議事規則第三期主席默受發言"},{"start":7545.715,"end":7558.561,"text":"主席不讓我們自由的發言保持如你阻止立法委員進行立法委員的職責主席沒收立法委員的職責我想我們到最後的一段還要討論什麼剛剛那麼多委員在造謠我剛剛建議你們說過關於第九屆就已經到現在的討論剛才也有委員提出要請求我們討論主席"},{"start":7571.207,"end":7573.429,"text":"首先我還是要再重申第一點"},{"start":7591.202,"end":7599.49,"text":"請尊重主席第二點我們尊重每一位委員的發言第三請尊重我們的議事規則根據議事規則第30-1條我們的廣泛發言各位委員的發言是由主席來決定時間長度但是我們相信這個議題也是非常重要的"},{"start":7609.58,"end":7631.513,"text":"那我們剛才也有說明從第九屆開始這個議題就已經進行討論那我們在113年的7月10號也已經詢答完畢剛才也有多位委員進行提案說明同時待會我們也會逐條的時候還有時間讓各位發言所以我想我們現在進行第二輪的發言那我想時間一分鐘"},{"start":7633.951,"end":7634.532,"text":"主席主席我剛剛是說兩分五十九秒"},{"start":7653.396,"end":7678.24,"text":"第一位發言範圍委員謝謝剛剛實在是謠言太多了就是我們澄清謠言跑斷腿那我想第一個電力的部分本來應該要找就是我們台電的董事長講但是我想就是說行政院副院長鄭麗君還有公開講過已經考慮了AI半導體等發展2030年供電滿足需求就是能源轉型的2.0會逐步達到2050的淨零轉型不變"},{"start":7682.021,"end":7700.075,"text":"如果看馬英九跟蔡總統時代的你就會看到誰的淨零做的比較多另外台電也強調考慮了AI半導體資料中心等台灣不缺電我們需要做的是加強電網的韌性這部分台電都有公開發言請大家不要再造謠"},{"start":7700.856,"end":7719.862,"text":"那第二個剛剛是張其凱委員吧他居然講說不要污衊國民黨委員只是一個彈性請大家看一下林佩祥委員今天才丟出來的那個臨時動議他裡面講的是什麼前項運轉執照有效期限最長為40年期滿需繼續運轉應申請換發執照"},{"start":7725.123,"end":7742.327,"text":"他連給因是誰主體應該就是台電吧連給台電評估後不要申請的機會都沒有這哪叫彈性張其開委員坐在這邊連現場的資料也不看一下就說別人污衊國民黨委員不知道他現在是國民黨身份還是哪個黨身份"},{"start":7744.748,"end":7761.426,"text":"另外謝龍介剛剛說最便宜的電不用請領域級委員教一下謝龍介連怎麼算電都不知道簡直是以法國為例為了反映盧演繹十年國民黨委員都提法國的例子你知道他演繹十年花了多少錢"},{"start":7762.266,"end":7781.54,"text":"需要投入高達一千億歐元換算成台幣是三兆五千多億台幣而且我想法國不像我們台灣台電在2011年就重新探勘發現河山場等恆春斷城是第一類活動斷城"},{"start":7782.541,"end":7790.865,"text":"最後張祺凱說DPP選擇跟世界趨勢對撞請你查一下什麼叫世界趨勢吧核電根本不是全球發展趨勢從2004年到2023年全球啟用102座機組其中關掉的機組遠高於"},{"start":7802.29,"end":7830.409,"text":"事實上如果扣掉中國的話是關掉超過50個機組那你如果再看看全球這些正在興建中的俄羅斯是重要的出口經銷商如果你把俄羅斯那個算進去基本上這是共產國家在做的一門生意中國就在裡面興建了百分之五十幾你如果扣過中國的話事實上其他的國家包含俄羅斯正在印度在某些國家興建中的"},{"start":7832.19,"end":7852.734,"text":"關掉五十幾座我想這個部分證明核電根本就不是全球發展趨勢如果剛剛大家講的這麼厲害的話為什麼關掉的是負的那請你再扣掉俄羅斯他出口在別的國家跟中國境內的那裡面超過一半的全球新建的核電基轉謝謝謝謝范雲委員的第二輪發言我們接下來有請林一錦召委進行發言"},{"start":7868.186,"end":7880.39,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想再強調現階段我們談核電營業或重啟成本確實相當相當的龐大"},{"start":7882.116,"end":7902.49,"text":"那核電廠運轉越久產生的核廢就越多這也是主委曾經在詢答這個回答的那核廢產生的核廢越多我們就需要更多的資金去處理核廢料那這都不可避免一定是納入發電的成本當中嘛所以這個成本那麼龐大怎麼會說核電是一個相對省錢的能源那我們來談到安全"},{"start":7912.336,"end":7934.283,"text":"最近最大的國際新聞就是緬甸泰國的強震震災是全人類的痛更是我們身處斷層帶台灣人的集體創傷那現在的河山場又位於恆春的斷層帶所以我想這個事情我們不能"},{"start":7935.424,"end":7962.233,"text":"避而不見我們不能不正視這個問題所以我想面臨到這樣的一個安全問題大家為什麼都一直說核能相對安全這我很不解那我們現在如果說我們來研究這個所謂的法案國民黨提出的修正法案我很認真來看我覺得目前你們提的這個提案內容其實某個程度也算根本是一疊廢紙怎麼說"},{"start":7963.914,"end":7990.461,"text":"因為縣刑法並沒有禁止核電廠的研議你們來看第六條縣刑條文核電廠期滿了有需要繼續運轉者必須申請換發執照相關換發規定存用前條第一項好我們就來看前條本法的第五條第一項當中很明確的提到如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要確保公眾的健康安全"},{"start":7991.281,"end":8009.332,"text":"那我們現行法跟國民黨今天要修的法有什麼不同?有啦!就在哪裡?有個不同是說國民黨就是要放寬核安的管制標準讓沒有在其縣內申請研議甚至廚藝的工作早就要進行的老舊核電廠要讓它繼續運轉"},{"start":8011.753,"end":8026.858,"text":"所以不要再用什麼狗屁話術來說國民黨同時有在兼顧河安國民黨不是意圖讓河安管制更寬鬆而你們的修法就是跟現行法白板都一樣了啦所以話要講回來"},{"start":8029.076,"end":8043.895,"text":"我覺得 如果國民黨認為今天的修法有那麼大的公義性那 我也還是納悶了我們今天看今天的這個修法的提案版本本委員會喔 除了葛如軍 張偉有提案以外"},{"start":8044.756,"end":8072.015,"text":"其他的教委委會沒有一個人有提案從上一次柯志珍招委排案到現在有一段時間那如果說我們教委委會覺得這個法案很重要具有公義性的話那為什麼沒有人提案所以我想我們大家在教委也當同是一年多了我們都很清楚這就是一個政治掛帥沒有意義沒有實質利益的法案所以我還是要向招委建議像這種"},{"start":8074.542,"end":8089.511,"text":"高政治性然後低民生然後而且是政治怪獸的法案我想我們今天其實可以不要繼續討論這個法案才對謝謝林益錦召委的發言我們接下來有請吳麗華委員進行發言"},{"start":8103.122,"end":8129.727,"text":"謝謝主席剛才聽到國民黨多位的一個發言包括民眾黨都會提到說為了經濟如何如何世界潮流如何如何然後說不是壞就是笨那我在這個地方聽了很難過因為對我們來講到底是杞人憂天還是愚者無所慮"},{"start":8131.431,"end":8144.938,"text":"我們知道的一句話是智者多慮今天不論往哪裡走我們看到今天的修法不論是想要把執照延長或者是強制的申請來換證我們都要務實的來面對核廢料的處置"},{"start":8150.92,"end":8172.241,"text":"現在高階核廢料最終處置廠也沒有法源第一階核廢料最終處置廠大家找不到拒絕公投所以最起碼我們從過去所談的關於放射性廢棄物中期的暫時儲存設置它的具體規劃的內容你要先面對"},{"start":8173.802,"end":8191.494,"text":"關於低放射性廢棄物最終處置長設施長指的設置條例你也是要先面對 要先拿出來所以在這個地方我其實是特別想要談有一種風險叫做一次都不能承受的風險"},{"start":8193.257,"end":8219.352,"text":"我也想到一首歌就是叫做我來刀一割刀但是它不是卡加布列島我很擔心我不要我來刀一割刀叫做軍事無人島我們是一個地震頻繁的一個島國我都不曉得說大家有那麼大的信心認為未來的十年二十年一百年"},{"start":8220.475,"end":8243.39,"text":"我們沒有辦法承受這樣的一個風險我們要的是永續的家園我們要的其他的能源我們都還找得到辦法但是現在就想問核能我們有辦法處理嗎希望大家一起來做智者多慮 謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員的發言我們接下來有請郭育琴委員進行發言"},{"start":8251.837,"end":8251.858,"text":"蠔油"},{"start":8259.09,"end":8282.021,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先先對剛剛這個國民黨委員說這個肺腺癌都是民進黨的問題這個部分我提出嚴正的一個抗議不要什麼事情都怪民進黨不要連你們家馬桶不通你也怪民進黨你前一天拉肚子上廁所沒衛生紙也怪民進黨不要什麼事情都往這個執政黨上面頭上栽贓"},{"start":8285.442,"end":8307.369,"text":"講到2022年其實美國的核能佔比也已經下降到18.2%這個發電量較前一年下降的0.9%這是我們最新得到的一個訊息當全世界的核能佔比都在普遍下降那麼剛剛其實藍白委員他們在說的日本要重啟他們只說了一半"},{"start":8308.109,"end":8317.617,"text":"他們沒有說的是日本同步的大幅增加了天然氣燃煤和石油進口而且增加了大量的太陽能發電"},{"start":8319.835,"end":8338.931,"text":"這個關於核電的重啟或者是研議不是只有核電監管機關說了算它還必須跟當地所有的居民縣市政府要有一致的共識才能夠處理這樣子的問題台灣跟日本一樣處於所謂的地震帶那也是應該要首要的來考量"},{"start":8340.208,"end":8356.939,"text":"再來,我想提到一點,關於所謂研議的部分台電有沒有足夠的業務費來評估核電是否能夠重建任何一個國家的核電廠要研議一定要經過非常久的時間,是數年的時間"},{"start":8358.2,"end":8373.088,"text":"而且有工程跟評估的研究要投入大量的經費跟預算我以2014年台電出估當時他們說如果核電光是2014年要研議的話必須要花費580億"},{"start":8375.789,"end":8400.022,"text":"而現在11年的時間過去了所有的原物料難道都不會上漲嗎所有的研議的成本都不會上漲嗎我們的台電有沒有足夠的業務費來處理這一塊這是最現實的問題更遑論剛剛提到的核廢料到底是要堆在你們家嗎要堆在你們的縣市嗎要堆在基隆嗎"},{"start":8401.222,"end":8424.959,"text":"現在我們的核廢料的問題處理了嗎所有的東西沒有處理之前安全是最重要的一個考量沒有安全就沒有研議的問題講得這麼清楚難道要把所有的責任再丟給我們的下一代去承擔嗎不要像巨嬰式的修法以為修了法就可以來改變這樣子的一個狀況這是非常不負責任的我再講一次"},{"start":8428.671,"end":8451.842,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員的發言接下來有請張雅玲委員進行發言謝謝主席我想我先來針對幾件事情來做個澄清好了因為剛剛有羅廷偉委員來跟我提到就是說我剛剛講說我們好像說沒有以剛剛"},{"start":8453.957,"end":8476.469,"text":"剛剛他講說我們好像在有點污衊了國民黨我想要具體再講一次我剛剛講的話我講的是說數十年前台灣的核電廠是在以當年的安全標準大概就是1970年代那時候就是國民黨統治這句話有錯嗎那時候他們在建設核電廠的思維是只求建設國民黨想要反攻大陸這件事情有錯嗎沒錯吧所有人的書都是這樣讀的嗎"},{"start":8478.65,"end":8487.803,"text":"我覺得這個就莫怪羅廷偉老師投書給他啦所以可能當時書可能讀得不夠多可能要再讀一下我們到底有沒有反攻大陸"},{"start":8489.452,"end":8513.033,"text":"還是現在國民黨已經忘記要反攻大陸了啦再來第二個部分就是說翁小玲說我們不要反科學我們要有民主過去這30年來我們住在台灣有安全有危險嗎我必須要再講我們住在台灣很危險為什麼我們有中共同路人在這邊挖台積電的資料在這邊挖一些農業部的一些被處理的資料我們超級危險的好嗎"},{"start":8513.934,"end":8530.925,"text":"再來第三個部分就是關於剛剛張祺凱委員一直很關心因為他常常就講就是電價我們好像沒有核能我們就是電價一定怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣之類的我想要講一件事情今天電價可以犧牲所有人的安全嗎"},{"start":8533.228,"end":8560.475,"text":"目前的修法我們還是沒有務實的回到安全以及核廢料的處置來做深入的討論那為什麼就要來修這些相關研議或是重啟的一個法案呢為什麼要就對這些法案來開綠燈呢電價上漲固然是我們需要面對的課題但我們應該還是要尋求安全永續的一個能源轉型方案而不是選擇一條可能會讓我們付出更多代價的道路"},{"start":8561.135,"end":8588.013,"text":"核災發生的時候犧牲的是我們的每一個人我想我也要再重新講一下我們在現在此時此刻的10點多左右我剛查了一下核能的佔比大概只有3%再生能源已經到了21.5%而且大家一直不停的在講說國外重啟 國外重啟那我跟大家一個報告2024年世界核能產業現況報告的統計過去的核電跟現在的核電成本相比已經從原本的123"},{"start":8590.094,"end":8615.872,"text":"每千度哦每千度123美元上升到了182美元上升了49%相反的風力和發太陽能的成本已經下降了六成到八成因此國民黨為什麼一直不把這件事情揭露出來呢把事實揭露嘛講科學我們就來論科學啊所以如果可能要成為評價的電力來源其實是不切實際的哦"},{"start":8617.765,"end":8629.63,"text":"重要的重點應該是我們要來強化我們的電網韌性加強儲物能那剛剛葉仁芝委員也有說啊那我們政府就應該好好來把這些安全處理好啊欸 是誰砍了那麼多錢啊是誰啊 國民黨葉仁芝忘記了嗎就像忘記審查機密預算的時候要關直播一樣嗎"},{"start":8638.633,"end":8661.138,"text":"最後我想我還是要呼籲一下今天這個絕對是一個政治型的法案因為這是朱立倫主席才是的一個法案整個教養委員會裡面除了葛如君委員其他都沒有提出來我們不要讓政治凌駕民生凌駕兒童的安全 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行發言"},{"start":8670.302,"end":8671.336,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":8673.622,"end":8700.128,"text":"各位我們本會的同仁還有在線上收看轉播的公民今天是我們在教委員會由國民黨及民眾黨的委員分別提出了核管法的修法的版本那我們在進行在逐條討論之前的大體的詢答那這是我的第二次發言剛剛前面呢在第一次發言之後我聽到很多國民黨委員的言論其中"},{"start":8702.108,"end":8715.074,"text":"翁曉林委員因為他有指出太嚴重的造謠必須要來澄清那我覺得比較麻煩的是因為翁曉林委員他造謠完就跑掉了他剛剛說民進黨讓台灣人得肺腺癌這是一個莫大的控訴因為大家知道燃煤中火是誰蓋的是蔣經國蓋的中火是蔣經國蓋的"},{"start":8729.915,"end":8744.02,"text":"是歐小維林委員是在指控蔣經國先生讓台灣人得肺腺癌嗎但他站了完就跑了留下國民黨的委員在現場我相信他們也不知道如何來回應今天我要再次的重申核電演藝這個議題的討論"},{"start":8748.161,"end":8766.97,"text":"並不是在追求更先進的技術因為現實來說我們現有的核電廠就是數十年的老舊核電廠而當年在興建的時候是不公開不透明也缺乏了民主的機制甚至當年是沒有環評的"},{"start":8768.09,"end":8771.233,"text":"所以我要再次重申當我們在討論核電研議的時候我們在討論的不是先進新型的核電技術而是數十年的老舊核電廠要繼續使用的問題那這當中有什麼樣的問題有安全有核廢料的處置剛剛前面張祺凱委員說日本美國都可以處理台灣怎麼不可以處理"},{"start":8792.273,"end":8796.175,"text":"日本美國請問目前有高階核廢料處置廠嗎請問有嗎是沒有的所以我們剛剛一再討論的是你最終處置廠如果你要繼續研議核廢料勢必會增加請問提案要放寬有彈性的這些委員們你們的主張應該要放在哪裡呢第三點"},{"start":8817.043,"end":8834.61,"text":"剛剛謝龍介委員說擔心子孫的負擔現在唯一有最終處置場的芬蘭他這一個處置場接下來要運轉的要使用的會花費的就是十萬年的時間才可以慢慢的來處置這些核廢料所以如果你們要講到子孫的負擔的話我們要"},{"start":8837.671,"end":8840.512,"text":"繼續倘若你們要讓這個核管法放寬讓老舊核電廠繼續使用讓台灣的核電核廢料繼續增加的話我們未來要給我們的子孫增加多少年去消耗消化這些核廢料的負擔請務必要說明清楚那再來最後我要講的是"},{"start":8858.757,"end":8866.159,"text":"安全很重要這我想我也肯定這是今天不同黨派的委員即便有些立委是認為主張要延誼要延長放寬這個條文但是大家都認為安全一定是最重要的但是安全不是能夠直接照抄其他國家每一個國家要考量的人口密集度位置地震帶地質等等的評估都是不同的"},{"start":8884.284,"end":8891.708,"text":"所以每一個國家的安全是需要不同的專業評估而剛剛很多人也說這個條文就算通過之後也不是要求台電要立刻的來重啟要繼續讓運轉能夠延續但是我們想問的是那為什麼要在這個時間點在社會沒有共識幾次的委員會討論也都沒有共識的前提下要強行的進入逐條討論要強行的去送出這個版本呢"},{"start":8913.98,"end":8918.101,"text":"剛剛討論到大家擔心的供電的問題假如這個條文通過他要經過的安全的審查專業的審查這是還需要數年的時間也根本跟剛剛講的要能夠及時的來應對供電的問題時間上根本就對不上所以我們只能非常的憂心非常的憂心的擔憂為什麼因為過去一年的立法院我們看到多次都用政治來凌駕專業"},{"start":8942.571,"end":8957.823,"text":"用舉手表決來凌駕我們各個部會的專業來凌駕法律的專業甚至立法院可以用舉手表決的方式提出違憲的法案今天如果我們相信了他們說的我們只是給你一個彈性來通過這個放寬的法律未來要不要放寬還是由政府來評估但是 常任通過了下次他們再提議 再提案"},{"start":8967.69,"end":8973.574,"text":"說我要求你明年就要來這個評估研議繼續運轉我們真的相當相當的擔心未來立法院有可能用舉手表決的方式凌駕了專業而犧牲了安全所以我們要再次的重申沒有辦法處理核廢料沒有安全我們沒有辦法來讓核電要研議的這個條文通過 謝謝"},{"start":8994.144,"end":8997.707,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言接下來有請陳秀寶委員進行發言謝謝主席我在這邊要再次的強調除了電價生命健康更重要其他國家可以但是你要看台灣的條件是不是相同台灣地小人稠核電的風險我們承擔不起"},{"start":9022.466,"end":9044.758,"text":"其他國家怎麼處理核廢料台灣不一定能夠複製台灣真的很難面對這個問題因為我們得不到民意的支持沒有縣市願意核廢料的儲放設施建置在自己的地方我不願意我的鄉親不願意我的縣市不願意那麼國民黨的提案委員以及剛剛罵得很大聲很兇的民眾黨委員你告訴我"},{"start":9048.3,"end":9060.517,"text":"你們的縣市願意接受核廢料儲放設施在你的地方請你告訴我你們願意 請你自告奮勇的告訴我你們的縣市可以處理核廢料接受核廢料的這些儲放設施"},{"start":9062.247,"end":9090.51,"text":"合一場的室外乾式儲存場屢遭新北市政府一直沒有核可延宕了將近11年後來是因為台電的官司勝訴了才核准並且在113年的10月15日來取得水保計畫完工證明才開始執行熱測室作業現在正在辦理運轉執照的安全審查並且要安全符合"},{"start":9091.371,"end":9104.328,"text":"放射性物料管理法的相關法規之後才會同意來核發運轉執照台電在114年的1月動工來興建核二廠的室外乾除設施"},{"start":9106.257,"end":9108.678,"text":"我要再次強調我們核一場核二場的燃料池已經接近滿儲核三場的燃料池儲存空間也是非常有限運轉越久核廢料越多沒有辦法處理核廢料我們就沒有繼續使用核電的條件"},{"start":9125.928,"end":9142.719,"text":"不要再跟我說其他國家可以台灣的條件跟其他國家並不相同我們這麼小的一個面積的島國我們相關核廢料沒有地方儲存萬一核電廠有安全的疑慮的時候我們也沒有地方可以疏散"},{"start":9144.022,"end":9163.757,"text":"到底誰能夠為這些相關的這些安全負責你們提出修改相關的規定相關的法令但是你們有辦法負責嗎不要把這些錯都丟在民進黨的身上這是我們長期以來一直都需要一起面對的"},{"start":9164.878,"end":9180.193,"text":"今天為了政治目的而修改這樣子的來做修法像我剛剛講的這就是血主勢旅不能因為你們政治目的凌駕在安全以及健康之前來犧牲我們民眾的生命財產安全"},{"start":9183.556,"end":9195.205,"text":"也要確保我們有辦法為我們的後代為我們的子子孫孫負責一時的政治目的所犧牲的是難以想像難以承擔的風險謝謝"},{"start":9210.626,"end":9230.755,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛來自台中的羅廷維委員有點名指出關於台中人的權益我來幫大家恢復一下記憶台中火力發電廠是從國民黨威權時期1986年開始興建甚至在馬英九總統還有胡志強市長的任內達到燃煤量"},{"start":9231.195,"end":9242.847,"text":"空污排放的歷史高峰而在中火燃煤還有空污量最高峰的時刻當時的台中民選立法委員就是現在的盧秀燕媽媽市長而她當時對於國民黨的行為一聲不吭這是歷史的記憶那到底是誰在撿煤撿污呢"},{"start":9252.697,"end":9272.276,"text":"蔡英文總統從2016上任以來積極透過電力系統的安排調度減少中火的燃煤用量還有污染排放跟2014年相比目前中火排放的空污已經大幅減少70%燃煤使用量也已經減少未來當然還會繼續努力我再強調一次未來當然還會繼續努力"},{"start":9276.78,"end":9296.096,"text":"講了這麼多我想要請台中的立法委員你們絕對不要忘了這個記憶剛剛所有的國民黨委員還有民眾黨委員他們一致的說核安的問題核廢的問題你們也很關心那如果你們除了政治學問高深如果你們科普知識也很厲害請你們來教教我"},{"start":9296.917,"end":9325.375,"text":"目前這一次提案的委員你們的選區位於所謂30公里撤離圈的委員目前有王宏威你的選區在台北市中山區、松山區羅志強委員你的選區在台北市大安區李燕秀委員你的選區在台北市內湖區、南港區徐巧欣委員你的選區在台北市信義區、松山區賴思寶委員你的選區在台北市文山區、中正區洪孟楷委員你的選區在新北市石門區、三芝區、淡水區、八里區"},{"start":9326.155,"end":9339.801,"text":"林口區、泰山區張志倫委員您的選區在新北市中和區林德福委員您的選區在新北市永和區中和區羅明才委員您的選區在新北市新店區、深耕區石碇區、坪林區、烏來區"},{"start":9342.202,"end":9358.23,"text":"廖先祥委員您的選區在金山區萬里區汐止區平溪區瑞芳區雙溪區貢寮區還有黃國昌委員您的服務處在新北市板橋區請問以上我所點名的這些委員提案的委員你們可以教教我們教教選民"},{"start":9359.651,"end":9370.183,"text":"如果發生核災他們要疏散到哪裡也就是我剛提出來的30公里撤離圈如果都沒有辦法回答這個問題我要向各位報告核地場半徑30公里內的居民應該撤離而台灣核三廠30公里內就有6萬人核二廠30公里內居住550萬人"},{"start":9378.212,"end":9394.36,"text":"如果真的發生核災相關的問題地方政府早就承認沒有能力撤離安置所以如果你們真的這麼厲害你們代表你們可以跟民意溝通請你們教教我核安的問題應該要如何處理我都還沒有時間談到核廢料因為主席只給我們兩分鐘的時間 謝謝好 謝謝陳培昀委員的發言我想接下來請謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":9418.891,"end":9438.669,"text":"君主一言一定,台灣老人這麼多,實在說是不宜蒙主揮霍,這麼可惡、這麼高官、這麼優秀,有什麼對我們的國家這麼沒信心呢?這個安全的問題,有這麼困擾嗎?"},{"start":9442.076,"end":9465.509,"text":"大家是嚴肅來面對因為這不單是臨環的問題這卡在國家危機 國家安全的問題日本大陸的太陽能在發電有人說現在熱能已經新噴降到四五十趴是啊 但是台灣的熱能升到四五十趴八幾趴了啦別人兩顆我 你的太陽能要到四五顆"},{"start":9472.139,"end":9490.676,"text":"你沒有掛你的鑰匙,對不對?所以這是關於的問題,可以改善那麼日本的天然氣,全民收留的時候,因為日本跟台灣一個非常雄殊的就是海德型的國家,沒有天然的資源"},{"start":9492.307,"end":9509.314,"text":"所以佔美調對安倍三一以後聽之所謂的婦人發展到專門啟動為什麼因為日本的出竅啊 他的母約啊 對plus變成minus非常非常嚴重 國家沒辦法當機負擔這種成本所以婦人 有人說不是最扮演的"},{"start":9516.567,"end":9530.574,"text":"但是我告訴你,他不只是醉半夜,現在是醉醉半夜的,因為你如果只是看他短假,有可能他跟頭痛閉起來差不多,但是頭痛是付出你的生命,付出你的健康做代價,不能不斷這樣,因為你沒有給他託款,託費給算了,"},{"start":9533.556,"end":9537.159,"text":"如果把他拖垮了 你看我看 整個人拖白了 還把他解散了婦人可以說是非常非常珍貴 非常非常有本意可以說是讓我們整個人類對這個地球 付出這個人"},{"start":9550.189,"end":9576.057,"text":"婦人不是天娥貝來的婦人存在這個地球數百萬年啊所以啊 咱只要人類用科技 科學 神用婦人可以幫助大家婦人可以提搬婦人可以創造恢復的工藝圈她還可以創造人類幸福的生活當然 安全不可忽略"},{"start":9577.25,"end":9598.042,"text":"要怎麼安全?那些專家、學者、老人這麼多,不聽他們的意見,他們有領略改革,讓他們政敵打壓,他們還要派社工委,點點不出聲,我認為這是台灣的損失。所以台灣人,不以蒙主揮霍,我們有很多很好的科學家,我們有很好的工程管理,"},{"start":9599.022,"end":9610.527,"text":"別人做得到,我們也做得到,不能一直跟台灣倒退路,我覺得大家正常、理性來面對這個問題,該安全就安全,該贏就贏,不能為了要賺太多高級的利潤,一個政黨、一個派出生意二十多間公司,煮飯後十萬變成一億八千萬,四年多而已,錢都退回去。"},{"start":9623.012,"end":9628.193,"text":"要補台電的 一千 兩千 三千繼續補說我們一千億補他 他就不會給我們企業 別再拖下去了我們過去補他三百一千億 他給我們企業企四百各位鄉親 你們聽得懂嗎一百一千億再補他 哇 好事 他反正會給你企業為什麼會企業 不可以怪台電的 因為靈魂政策偏差我們現在不夠是米霧丟霧 把這個放進去 並不是今天要處理啊"},{"start":9651.118,"end":9667.051,"text":"老總統說的 必要的時候要我告訴你 台灣市民都害了 兩個這麼緊張萬一啟動 危險的時候我告訴你 你如果沒有福利就對了你就真的參加不到普通社會了謝謝謝榮介委員的發言 接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"},{"start":9687.072,"end":9706.267,"text":"現在我相信有很多民眾都在看現場的這個直播他們關心的一定是希望今天的會議不管是哪一黨的立法委員跟我們的政府讓我們的電價不要再往上漲了而且有機會往下降"},{"start":9707.884,"end":9728.861,"text":"所以包括民進黨的立法委員請你們對你們的民眾要有所交代我現在發現了民進黨現在是跟民意在對撞我剛才已經強調了全世界先進國家都在用核廢料他們認為可以處理安全也沒有問題結果民進黨現在說我們台灣不安全"},{"start":9735.421,"end":9757.11,"text":"我們的核電已經用了40年 核一核三很安全核能扮演台灣經濟發展的火車頭穩定 價格低又安全全世界發生過核災的日本福島核災非常嚴重美國發生過山梨島 台灣沒有發生過核災"},{"start":9759.056,"end":9778.527,"text":"美國跟日本現在都重啟核電了結果民進黨現在在跟他講美國日本我們不要學我們自己是不安全的我們有這麼多專家學者台灣是個寶島啊現在民進黨說台灣是同飛什麼地方有這麼多專家而且現在的法律條文是在確認安全之後才會啟動嘛"},{"start":9786.141,"end":9813.528,"text":"所以我請 我講現在是一線之間我請民進黨包括今天發言的立法委員你們能夠以昌生為念以昌生為念你看 光是失業以後要漲價那個對人民的民生跟產業的衝擊就有多大好不容易 電價審議委員會做了動長的這個決定若民進黨政府今天繼續杯葛繼續拖延"},{"start":9815.37,"end":9841.388,"text":"那十月份再賞店價那就請民進黨政府跟民進黨的立委來負責任另外我想提一個點你們剛剛一直在講核廢料怎麼處理我請你們思考一個問題你們現在是執政黨耶現在的核一廠也有核廢料啊核二廠也有核廢料啊核三廠也有核廢料啊你們民進黨的講法是什麼現在現有的核廢料都不用處理嗎"},{"start":9844.073,"end":9869.288,"text":"科技在進步啊第一個是科技要進步第二個對啊啊你們怎麼樣那現在有核匯量你們就不處理了嗎所有人都要去面對這個問題嘛是不是你們現在這個問題有辦法解決嗎而且我要提醒我們的核匯量的處理長久以來我們核後端的這個基金我們每用一度電"},{"start":9870.629,"end":9894.046,"text":"我們的錢都有放到基金裡面去耶將近四千億的錢耶我們還設立了核安會我們的專家學者那麼多長久以來我們的安全沒問題為什麼現在到了民進黨的嘴巴裡面變成台灣式不安全的最後我做個結論請民進黨看一下最近的民調最近這兩三年"},{"start":9895.427,"end":9912.56,"text":"多數的民意都是贊成要用核電的連我們的公投都已經通過以核養綠事實上最近的民調也看得出來連民進黨多數的民眾很多民眾也是支持要用綠電的同時也要用核電"},{"start":9915.009,"end":9932.534,"text":"民進黨政府現在你們不只跟世界潮流在對撞你們跟民意在對撞的同時你們現在也跟多數的你們要不要回去看一下你們的民調你們多數的民進黨職責真的希望你們再繼續杯葛不用核電嗎請慎思給台灣的電價有下降的這個機會讓我們產業能夠好好的發展謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員的發言接下來請劉書斌委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":9957.028,"end":9980.054,"text":"在場的各位官員主席還有我們的同仁媒體朋友大家好我現在必須再跟大家確認一下就是民眾黨的關於核安的議題上面所採取的是我們對於再生能源是一直希望它提高的是支持的但是我們是在"},{"start":9981.516,"end":10008.616,"text":"要求的是過渡時期也就是在綠能再生能源它沒有辦法達到原來的目標還有儲能的狀況沒有辦法給它上去的時候我們希望能夠透過修法來把核能的部分給予它一個可以有效的再去因應這個不足的這一部分所以它是一個核能是一個過渡時期的一個能源"},{"start":10009.977,"end":10019.544,"text":"我們要知道從理性科學的角度來看事情的時候就可以知道各種能源都有它的優缺點再生能源當中它是環保的"},{"start":10030.253,"end":10042.646,"text":"沒有碳但是呢它有個最大的情況是我們在台灣是地小人頭的情況它不可能的無限制放大這個這個設置所有再生能源更重要的是它是間歇性的能源除非你的"},{"start":10043.672,"end":10070.692,"text":"除了設施要做好的情況下才能夠達到這樣的情況那因此在這種情況之下呢我們就會針對核能在未來的情況下尤其中研院已經說到了2050年的時候會有到5000億度的這樣的情況比現在的台電所預估的2.8%的這樣成長率都還要高的時候你怎麼能夠不去因應到這些部分但是如果再能夠好的話絕對是沒有問題那更重要的是在於"},{"start":10072.082,"end":10091.727,"text":"核能的部分也要提到說的剛才有提到的核安的這個問題只要日本的條件比我們嚴峻但是日本的情況上我們也要求是台灣也能跟日本一樣在維持著最高的國際的安全核安的標準之下的時候我們能夠在這個前提之下我們來去做核能的研議那這個當然一定要經過國際科學國際原子能委員會這邊的一個通過"},{"start":10096.368,"end":10103.634,"text":"所以前提是這個情況下就不要再去做其他的一個這就前提下都能夠落實更重要的是不要忘記非核家園是民進黨的政策所以即使剛才說的有人提到的在各個縣市當中是議員的責任在台清北市在屏東都沒有問題但是也是立法委員的責任可是不要政府是要解決問題的"},{"start":10121.129,"end":10150.255,"text":"因此民進黨政府請你就算是現在這個法不研議這個法核電廠不研議但是你原來的非核家園的那個三法核安三法你還是必須要把它通過必須好好面對這個問題不要推卸給別的責任那這是最重要的一部分好那就是說請大家注意到民眾黨的要求是在作為核能的在安全無虞的這個情況之下才會開放它是一個過渡性的一個能源好謝謝"},{"start":10153.891,"end":10181.347,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員的發言那我想如同我們剛剛所說從立法院第九屆會期開始方才我們就有說明有非常多的討論關於這個議題那本案呢也已經在113年的7月10號巡達完畢那我們今天呢也進行廣泛的討論那我想現在開始逐條審查"},{"start":10188.126,"end":10215.843,"text":"因為後面有柯智恩委員黃建豪委員跟翁小林委員都已經不發言了所以我們第二輪的發言就到這邊剛剛好多謠言我們現在開始逐條審查我們要發言主席還要發言我們這邊有收到提案建議本案停止討論進付表決是否有當進請公決誰提案誰的提案"},{"start":10216.824,"end":10224.607,"text":"提案人 林佩祥 謝龍介 羅庭瑋 葛如君都沒有收到 我們提散會程序問題 這個位階更高 程序問題 散會動議"},{"start":10232.602,"end":10260.862,"text":"這個我們民進黨這邊依據立法院議事規則第26條提出散會動議我再次提醒我們現在已經是第11屆的立法院了那提案人是林怡瑾 范雲 陳秀寶 張雅玲 吳佩奕 吳麗華幾位委員好那依據我們的議事規則我們先處理散會動議"},{"start":10262.932,"end":10284.046,"text":"那我們進行表決那我們請醫事人員清點人數 清查在場出席委員人數主席 不好意思 我要求要點名表決 我們向律師交代麻煩請提案"},{"start":10306.476,"end":10309.838,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":10314.147,"end":10318.189,"text":"你永遠在第一集戰局有出一刀?對啊,你來看,我實在有玩意"},{"start":10350.307,"end":10359.574,"text":"好 這場14位那剛才有這個林益謹委員提案針對我們的這個他是宣告"},{"start":10366.678,"end":10390.845,"text":"你們的提案是不是好要求點名表決那提案人是林一景委員范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員郭育晴委員那我們就好贊成提案表決好那我們就唱名贊成"},{"start":10395.725,"end":10421.097,"text":"他提議要點名表決要先表決贊成要點名表決好那我想因為這個提案要求點名表決我想我們先進行舉手表決好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕"},{"start":10431.11,"end":10452.342,"text":"我們來看看誰害怕被點名喔好 贊成者七位好 反對者請舉手反對點名表決的有 反對的有你又不是教文委員 教文啊教文的基本的議事規則搞不清楚喔反對者 反對者七位"},{"start":10457.703,"end":10478.164,"text":"好 可否同署由主席決定我們現在可否同署嗎"},{"start":10482.09,"end":10484.932,"text":"主席要公正 表明表決"},{"start":10510.825,"end":10520.049,"text":"業人畢竟是負責畫面延伸作善 觀眾必是負責有主席猜卷你不用這麼那個啦美齡OK嗎?那就點名嘛 那就點名表決不是負責的吧就點名表決 表決 表決 表決"},{"start":10539.417,"end":10540.538,"text":"每個人拿麥克風在那邊喊喔"},{"start":10562.067,"end":10579.443,"text":"謝謝 因為手上的麥克風是做竹條使用的請大家斟酌使用 謝謝好 那我們現在進行這個停止討論的動議散會動議我們現在接下來處理散會動議 謝謝我們現在處理散會動議那我們用舉手表決 那請清查請清點在場人數"},{"start":10590.131,"end":10597.301,"text":"好 14位 剛才已經清點過了那我們贊成這個 贊會動議者請舉手 贊成者請舉手好 贊成者7位 反對者請舉手"},{"start":10611.113,"end":10634.629,"text":"好 也是七位 可否同訴經主席裁決不通過 散會動議不通過好 那我們一樣處理建議本案停止討論 經負表決是否有當那我們欽點在場人數十四位 反對者請舉手請問是這個應該先贊成者請舉手 贊成者請舉手這個是停止逐條討論的逐條討論嗎 你要說明一下喔"},{"start":10637.791,"end":10648.684,"text":"停止廣泛討論 謝謝所以 謝謝好 贊成者請舉手 停止廣泛討論七位 贊成者七位好 反對者請舉手反對者七位"},{"start":10656.223,"end":10671.437,"text":"好那一樣可否同署金主席裁決通過本案停止討論那我們進行逐條審查核子反應器設施管制法修正草案相關修正草案期議事人員繼續宣讀條文並進行討論與協商討論時如果新增修正動議那因為我們已經過了臨時提案時間有修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀謝謝"},{"start":10680.779,"end":10698.49,"text":"委員王宏威等19人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案、委員邱振興等22人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案、委員蘇清泉等26人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案"},{"start":10701.462,"end":10725.211,"text":"委員翁小玲等19人拟據核子環境區設施管制法第6條條文修正草案民眾黨黨團拟據核子環境區設施管制法第6條條文修正草案委員徐欣等20人拟據核子環境區設施管制法部分條文修正草案委員葛瓦君等18人拟據核子環境區管制法第6條條文修正草案委員徐宇珍等22人"},{"start":10725.931,"end":10738.359,"text":"沒有啦,不是要對就舒服,直接要遭遇到這樣喔,對啊,坐下去說,不然為了這樣就死了啦今天謝榮介我也是看到我要去洗手間,死屁耶開會沒有這樣啦坐下去好好說啦"},{"start":10755.295,"end":10778.739,"text":"第一次來趙文貴搞不清楚沒有關係那邊是要給趙文貴坐著你坐著好好講啊廣告實施併合之下現在市政府廣告兩個月內政府提到現在第五項修訂委第一項併入區低密度人口測試第一年者計劃一年級計劃主管機關由主管機關"},{"start":10783.348,"end":10784.429,"text":"請與線性條文相同"},{"start":10798.63,"end":10808.737,"text":"好謝謝各位委員那我們今天逐條討論事務合資反應器設施管制法等10案條次對照表大家都拿到那我們先討論第6條那請發言"},{"start":10817.405,"end":10823.475,"text":"好 提案 請羅廷瑋委員接下來林怡瑾召委范雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":10826.948,"end":10845.696,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉在我很想要繼續討論這樣子的一個內容所以我選擇要繼續開會因為我想就像剛剛有人所提到的政治不應該凌駕專業所以我覺得我要尊重專業的情況之下我希望呢先請何安惠先幫我說明一下今天我們修這個法"},{"start":10846.616,"end":10867.571,"text":"修完以後請問一下是強制你一定要核能繼續運轉嗎第一個問題第二個問題我想問一下核安會可不可以請核安會就您的專業直接跟我們分享一下現階段你們自己內部評估是不是會造成有核災甚至對於現在的核能非常不安全你們有評估過嗎"},{"start":10868.632,"end":10886.81,"text":"你們要跟社會大眾交代一下也跟我們所有的委員告知一下讓我們能夠在逐條審查的時候更加的尊重專業但是前提要專業的先講出你們的評估我想有這樣子的兩者前提才可以後續逐條審查的時候更加聚焦所以請何安惠回答一下 謝謝"},{"start":10893.263,"end":10904.232,"text":"我們先按照順序請林益錦召委發言然後范雲陳秀寶委員然後郭益勤委員跟張阿玲委員 謝謝"},{"start":10907.294,"end":10920.899,"text":"我想我們今天討論核能演繹的事情待會還是要請台電來說明一下目前台灣的用電狀況跟核能重啟"},{"start":10924.381,"end":10941.019,"text":"的看法那當然我想很重要的是我剛剛在大體討論的時候也有提到就是說如果說你國民黨你現在這個版本第六條我們看起來其實核電廠期滿有需要"},{"start":10942.04,"end":10965.837,"text":"那個現行條文是核電廠期滿有需要繼續運轉者必須申請換發執照那相關的換發的規定準用條例前條 前條第一項那可是前條就是本法的第五條的第一項就有很明確的規範如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要確保公眾的健康跟安全"},{"start":10967.039,"end":10976.399,"text":"所以現行法 肉這樣看其實它並沒有禁止核電廠研議所以我覺得目前的現行法"},{"start":10978.429,"end":11003.74,"text":"原則上沒有禁止的話那其實也沒有太多修法的必要那好 那當然啦所以後來講回來的是那我們再回到核電廠國民黨堅持要研議因為他們沒有在這個所謂的範圍內去申請研議那申請研議我覺得剛剛討論那麼多我覺得還是有三大原則啦一個就是核能安全"},{"start":11004.68,"end":11015.679,"text":"那很多委員 特別張其凱委員有一直提到他覺得核能很安全台南的核能 台灣的核能很安全那我們就是只怕一萬不怕萬一"},{"start":11018.415,"end":11044.353,"text":"我們核能安全那日本的這個福島核災利利債務離我們台灣那麼近導致很多漁獲我們都不能日本進口漁獲都不能再繼續用好那現在核能現在我們核三廠要演繹的是核三廠那核三廠是在有通過這個斷層帶所以這個在斷層帶的核能廠你能說它是安全的嗎"},{"start":11045.314,"end":11060.37,"text":"那你說現在它是安全那未來能持續安全嗎那你看緬甸的地震那台灣的地震基本上現在氣象學者地震專家有在說我們台灣有可能在兩個禮拜後"},{"start":11061.952,"end":11085.297,"text":"你有可能會整個板塊一塊又連動台灣這有一些預報所以台灣的地震的頻繁基本上是非常的可預期的所以在一個斷層帶的核能廠它的安全性我覺得這個大家要來做思考在這個不安全的斷層帶上面的核能廠有研議之必要嗎再來一個最重要的關鍵還是核廢料"},{"start":11087.037,"end":11108.766,"text":"核廢料怎麼處置是推動的過程根本沒有辦法嘛你高階核廢的最終處置場面臨選址根本沒有法源好 那我們光做地質調查就遭到抗爭的窘境那你低階核廢料的最終處置場地方政府拒絕協助處理公投啊所以也沒有辦法繼續推動啊"},{"start":11110.347,"end":11128.151,"text":"所以核廢料沒有人要在你家啦啊不然核廢料你又敢說敢再說再加一那我們這件事情就可以往這邊開始來處理啊是不是所以這個社會共識就變得很重要這是第三大原則沒有這三個原則核能安全核廢料的處置問題還有社會共識我們為什麼要來討論演繹的事情呢以上"},{"start":11134.311,"end":11149.042,"text":"請范雲委員謝謝 謝謝林錦瑋剛剛那個藍百緯一直說就是本黨委員講的不專業那事實上我想是他們自己閱讀的太少"},{"start":11149.622,"end":11164.223,"text":"不知道是不是只有意識形態然後不尊重專業所以我待會想請台電回應剛剛我所講的就是所謂台灣的核電如果重啟後符合歐盟規定的綠能標準嗎"},{"start":11166.266,"end":11194.224,"text":"那有哪些我們的出口企業它的用電必須要符合這個綠能的標準所以我想這個部分就是要請台電回應然後我也想請何安慧回應那個日本在剛剛一直有人講到日本法國的例子日本在福島核災後那個福井縣的敦賀核電廠是不是因為它的正下方存在活斷層"},{"start":11195.865,"end":11223.794,"text":"就是說不符合安全標準之後到現在一直都停機那這個部分也請何安慧你們做的是安全的部分那另外呢我想也請何安慧講一下你們在2011年當時就是說就是設廠的時候是不是並不確定並不知道有恆春斷層跟三角斷層那你們在"},{"start":11225.935,"end":11240.561,"text":"2011年的報告是不是發現就是以核三廠為例下面就是有恆春斷層那目前核三廠的設計是不是完全沒有辦法處理這個斷層就是如果活躍的問題"},{"start":11244.098,"end":11258.455,"text":"就是說是不是也能夠告訴我們如果是你們或者是台電有評估一下說那到底要花多少錢才能解決這樣的問題因為剛剛一直在說核電很便宜完全並沒有處理這個安全評估"},{"start":11260.049,"end":11266.751,"text":"跟就是安全評估之後如果要能夠保障不管是屏東人因為我們高雄要選市長的委員也在這裡他事實上這個風險的範圍是不只是在屏東那一旦發生什麼任何的事情的話那誰可以負責那到底要花多少錢才能做到就是安全評估上符合國際標準的"},{"start":11284.417,"end":11313.07,"text":"我剛剛所講的所謂的綠電的標準還有包含必須要處理氣候的就是極端氣候包含地震這才是一個國際的一個就是核電廠的安全標準那何安慧是不是可以告訴我們你們自己就是相關的這個斷層的研究那到底要如何補強要花多少錢才能夠做到符合國際的所謂綠能標準的一個安全"},{"start":11314.485,"end":11318.527,"text":"其實我們國家為了安全的使用核能我們的核管法有規定基礎運轉的這個執照是合法給40年那如果有需要必須在期滿如果有需要在期滿之後繼續運轉必須在期限之內提出申請我們相關的規範都是為了我們核電能夠是安全的"},{"start":11340.279,"end":11364.046,"text":"但是國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的版本呢他們要延長這個機組運轉的年限而且是在執照屆滿前才提出申請就是相關的一些審查相關的一些評估並沒有足夠的時間來確保機組是安全的在福島核災之後呢其實這些相關的會有輻射污染疑慮的食品呢我們的國人都非常的擔心就"},{"start":11365.746,"end":11389.056,"text":"在食品安全上大家都非常的注重那現在像他們這個川沸水的排放啊大家也如影大敵啊都一直在監測就是相關的會有這些輻射污染的這些相關的物質我們都一直的擔心說會危害到大家的健康那現在我們可以把核能排除我們可以有自己的不擔心健康不擔心安全的這樣的居住環境為什麼我們還要繼續繞在裡面"},{"start":11393.527,"end":11404.872,"text":"那其實國眾兩黨你們沒有去顧慮到核能安全及最終處置場污潔的狀況你們只是一直的想要用你們自己的政治目的我覺得這真是無視國際趨勢以及台灣人民的憂心那根據2024世界核能產業現況報告來看其實在2004到2023年間全球啟動了102座的反應爐但是有104座的機組是遭到關閉"},{"start":11423.061,"end":11427.546,"text":"中國增加了49座但是在中國以外的地區是淨減51座基礎所以這邊還是要強調其實除了中國以外的地區是呈現淨減少的趨勢所以你要一直說其他國家可以其他國家是誰是中國嗎"},{"start":11439.437,"end":11447.202,"text":"你們一心的趨向中國連使用能源的這個思維是向中國靠近嗎根據國際上的這個能源趨勢其實日本的核電佔比從過去的6.1%減到5.6%那剛才民眾黨講到說南韓其實南韓雖然有全球五大的核能計畫但是南韓的電力公司的債務是高達1470億美金"},{"start":11464.031,"end":11485.943,"text":"那非常剛好的是我們我們一直在台建的經費是被國眾兩黨是散光光那所以我這邊希望說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員你們要有點邏輯你們一直在攻擊說民進黨但是你有沒有想到說我們民進黨是希望說我們的國人我們的國家有個安全的安心的電力發展沒有核安就沒有核能"},{"start":11486.423,"end":11500.512,"text":"那在這邊呢我想請台電跟何安慰這邊你們說明一下恆春的斷層的活躍性是不是你們事先有沒有跟氣象署這邊來進行評估目前河山場的安全性是不是足夠的"},{"start":11502.25,"end":11516.856,"text":"那河山廠萬一真的不幸發生事故方圓多少里任的民眾是需要撤離還有目前世界上研議的河電廠有哪幾廠是附近有斷層的這個部分請你們等一下也說明一下以上陳秀寶委員發言那請這個郭育晴委員"},{"start":11523.716,"end":11541.909,"text":"就我剛剛其實在台上我所講的就是我們要去研議到底我們的核能發電廠是不是要研議這個部分我們台電有沒有足夠的一個業務費來評估然後又要花多少錢然後再來我看了很多這個藍白的共同的版本"},{"start":11542.329,"end":11562.054,"text":"第一就是在審查的時間他們是縮短的再來研議的時間是完全放寬到沒有上限也就是說他們沒有天花板那這種沒有天花板的一個狀況是不是就有可能會讓整個所有的核電的機組無限期的運行不管它的機組老不老舊"},{"start":11563.174,"end":11578.705,"text":"沒有考量到安全的一個問題這是我們大家最擔心的我舉例來講像王洪威的版本他說到底是在執照到期前多久來提出他並沒有寫清楚那另外包含這個邱振軍跟楊瓊瑛委員的版本到底經營者應該要事先提出申請請問事先到底這個時間是多久"},{"start":11586.61,"end":11604.682,"text":"那另外像翁曉林委員的版本就是講到研議運轉的年限沒有天花板所以這個沒有天花板是重新再運轉這個執照會不會完全忽略掉老舊機組他們運轉當中可能出現安全上重大的"},{"start":11605.542,"end":11626.661,"text":"維安的一個問題那這個部分是不是應該要嚴格的來考慮那最後一個問題就是我剛剛提到台電到底現在有沒有足夠的業務費來做這個評估任何一個國家的核電廠要研議要經過數年的評估要經過非常多的工程跟所有的評估的研究而且要投入大筆的預算我們台電現在有這個能力嗎 以上"},{"start":11632.394,"end":11647.806,"text":"謝謝龜群委員接下來請張阿玲委員好那我也是想要就這個安全性的部分來請教一下台電跟河安會就是說就如同剛剛許多委員都有提到就是說這個延宜無限延長這件事情在國外有沒有相關的案例"},{"start":11649.248,"end":11670.168,"text":"然後以及我們研議的一個流程依照國際標準它所要進行的時間它所需要做的安全評估甚至說 因為這些條文裡面還有牽扯到重啟的部分大概是哪些如果以我們現在委員這些版本是可行的嗎第三個部分是說"},{"start":11671.479,"end":11693.473,"text":"台灣 地震 颱風 地下人蟲這都是跟歐洲不同的條件那如果我們現在要去做這樣子的一個重啟或是延誼的討論的時候呢我們現在有沒有相關的一些預估然後我們有沒有相關的一些預算可以去做這樣子的一個評估 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員那我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":11701.173,"end":11701.855,"text":"剛剛吳立華委員有"},{"start":11708.086,"end":11730.26,"text":"民進黨的這個立委我可不可以把它補到後面好不好那個就是所以待會張啟凱委員發言完劉書斌委員然後再來吳佩儀委員跟伍麗華委員謝謝我先來解答民進黨立委剛提了幾個點剛有人提到說國外啊人家比較先進的國家到底有沒有研議量大概怎麼樣"},{"start":11732.622,"end":11747.759,"text":"日本在民國就是用我們的年度112年的2月底有通過他們的核電廠的嚴厲法案引起他們的核電廠再嚴厲20年他們跟我一樣都是先用40年嚴厲20年以後就變成60年美國呢"},{"start":11751.089,"end":11760.832,"text":"可以延長40年所以已經長達可以用80年而且美國他們已經重啟跟研擬這個核電他們這個有96座我先回答這個問題另外剛剛民進黨立委也提到他們說啊多用綠電綠電的價格 國際價格在降"},{"start":11771.786,"end":11790.452,"text":"我跟他報告一個數據民進黨主政下的這個綠電不只買了比一般的國家貴了很多我給大家一個非常明確的數據在民國110年的時候民進黨去買的再生能源的這個綠電平均價格一度電視4.75塊到了112年往上走了"},{"start":11794.979,"end":11799.149,"text":"漲到一度墊5.20到了去年又再度漲漲到5.46"},{"start":11803.021,"end":11831.434,"text":"事實上今天會討論說要不要用核電當然安全一定要顧慮等一下我們要討論可是也是因為民進黨執政之下他們沒有做到沒有做到蔡英文說的我們如果再生能源買越來越多量的時候價格要降低他是跳票的我剛剛的數據非常的明確一開始他們買的就是比國際的價格多了第二個更嚴重的他們不只沒有沒有往下降是往上飆的所以也出現了"},{"start":11832.793,"end":11858.642,"text":"台電一直在虧錢我們人民一直在漲電價賺到的是某些親民進黨的力友友們這也是為什麼今天必須討論這個修正案一個非常重要的原因第二個民進黨立委今天在強調安全的問題我覺得民進黨如果這樣無限制的這個講話那應該民進黨要修法不要搭飛機也不要搭車了"},{"start":11860.134,"end":11876.371,"text":"你從歷史去看台灣從核一廠開始用到現在核一 核二 核三有發生過重大的災害嗎沒有吧而且你們這麼不尊重我們的專家嗎核安會有這麼多的專家在你們對他們沒有信心嗎"},{"start":11877.728,"end":11894.391,"text":"第二個從全世界來看你不只是以前從歷史看核一核二 核三的運作是安全的你從全世界去看全世界都在重啟核能就表示他們對安全是有信心的美國發生過山梨島事件"},{"start":11895.933,"end":11907.96,"text":"日本確實沒有錯 發生過福島這個核災啊可是這兩個國家現在都是重啟核能我剛剛講了 日本把核電廠可以用的這個重啟跟研擬長達20年 去年他們還重啟了他們日本最大的核電廠連歐洲歐盟以前有比較反對用核電的就是德國人德國你看上個月他們的大選"},{"start":11924.687,"end":11942.813,"text":"跟民進黨一樣那個反核的第一大黨跟第二大黨慘敗贏的是要求要用核電的連以前不用核電的這個義大利都說以前的文藝復興現在義大利要推動核電的這個"},{"start":11944.916,"end":11969.277,"text":"復興 為什麼 因為它是穩定的 它是低廉的它也是安全的 全世界是這樣 你從以前台灣的歷史也是這樣那民進黨如果一直要販賣恐懼 你們拿不出證據那請你們立法 搭飛機很危險啊 有沒有搭飛機很安全啊 被你們講成是危險的那是不是 如果照你們這樣推 那就不要搭飛機了 你車子都不要開了"},{"start":11971.394,"end":11995.135,"text":"我講的是非常非常清楚 那台灣民眾黨提的這個第六條的修正案我們只是把之前 事實上也是林議員 林委員剛剛講的從以前的精神 你本來就是可以重啟 可以研議嘛我們更精準的把以前 要在五年前要提出申請把它縮短期限 讓它可以更及時所以是在屆滿前一到六個月 請大家注意看後面這個"},{"start":11996.291,"end":12015.488,"text":"要經過申請之後要經過儲管機關確認何時反應設施安全無虞你才能夠換照才能延逸啊所以安全當然是第一的啊所以請民進黨不要再換賣不要再換賣恐懼感裡面清清楚楚請對我們的專家有信心"},{"start":12016.907,"end":12030.272,"text":"請對大家有信心然後第二個我也要一直在剛剛已經在歸欠民進黨的立委現在全民都在看你們在你們目前的錯誤的能源政策之下為什麼全民現在多數的民意都認為要用核電也是因為你們去買綠電的時候買太貴了"},{"start":12032.685,"end":12051.644,"text":"挖了一個大的一個洞然後又把合一合二山停掉之後每年要多付一千億的這個支出導致兩個很嚴重的禍果因為我們電價不只是已經漲了四次過去三年漲了四十趴了對民生對我們的產業衝擊很大我們不是一直在說我們要幫我們的護國神山留在台灣嗎"},{"start":12052.825,"end":12076.803,"text":"台積電前陣子都出來講了他們在全世界有那麼多的廠民進黨就要一直漲電價所有廠裡面最貴的電價已經是在台灣了我們要繼續再漲電價下去嗎兩天五天我們看在那第一就是沒有用核電的一年一千億第二就是因為你們去買的太貴的這個綠電把這兩個東西趕快去補起來我們不只不用漲電價還可以降電價今天在野黨是非常負責任的"},{"start":12077.603,"end":12092.846,"text":"提出了這個修正案我們希望法令建前讓我們國家可以使用核電不過必須要強調主動前還是在民進黨如果民進黨的立法委員民進黨政府一直不願意提出申請老實講以後漲電價以後我們的產業受到影響請找民進黨負責謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員接下來請劉淑檳委員好"},{"start":12104.355,"end":12120.526,"text":"想要問的是核安會那既然大家都強調的是核安非常重要所以想要問的是核安三法裡面包括緊急應變的法還有核子事故的賠償法還有包括是永久的核廢料的處置場什麼時候會有院版出現"},{"start":12127.253,"end":12134.358,"text":"行政院的版本要出現請問有沒有這樣的規劃那有的話是什麼時候會出現那這就是大家關心的我們民眾黨就關心到這個議題那第二個問題呢因為在原子能委員就是這個國際的原子能總署當中它對於核安事故全球的部分呢它有這個國際的核能事件的分級表那我想請問的目前還在營運的核三廠能夠因應到這個分類表分級表當中的第七級的部分嗎"},{"start":12156.872,"end":12178.162,"text":"就是說你們當初的規劃或是能夠因應到哪一級的這樣的一個這樣的發生到核災那就目前有看到說這個核災發生的情況之下的風險我要提醒一下就是說風險的發生的事情跟核災難的這個重點有差別就說了飛機要坐搭車或坐飛機你搭車常常發生事故但是你坐飛機的時候呢它"},{"start":12184.588,"end":12213.168,"text":"看起來好像一旦發生事故事故在天上掉下來大概是很少是沒有能夠倖免於難的但是飛機掉下來的時候它飛機的發生這個掉下來的比例是到底是多少如果是比較高的話那是不是這樣的情況之下它是不是都不要大家搭飛機了所以我想這部分要看到核災發生的比例是這個風險比例我想要請何安慧提供我們這個數據包括台灣目前的這樣的數據是多少如果是"},{"start":12213.948,"end":12231.455,"text":"核災看起來很可怕但是一旦發生說沒辦法影響但是它比例比例我們還是科學要提供證據在這個情況之下是不是提供一下台灣發生在面對到這種地震或是七級的這樣的情況之下到底比例會多少好 那國際間對待這樣的情況是怎麼樣的好 謝謝謝謝劉淑冰委員我們接下來請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":12240.327,"end":12255.974,"text":"這個剛剛前面張啟凱委員又再次提到所以今天核管法的修法然後跟電價之間的關係所以等一下我想要請台電來說明即便今天這個核管法的修法即便今天通過了"},{"start":12256.894,"end":12282.177,"text":"它有可能影響到今年十月的電價審議嗎這是第一點好 再來是我覺得邏輯還是要弄清楚剛剛有很多委員提到說那麼到底政府部門的態度是什麼即便這個修法通過了還是要看政府部門的態度那我想態度其實非常的清楚因為我們核管法現行法規並沒有禁止"},{"start":12282.677,"end":12297.446,"text":"新建新的核電廠也沒有禁止讓核電廠來演繹只不過在現行的法規之內是規範如果你要提出演繹換照的話必須要在五年之前為什麼要有這個時間就是因為我們對於過去沒有經過環評就蓋下去的這些老舊的核電廠在台灣倘若要演繹的話它的安全審查"},{"start":12308.772,"end":12331.11,"text":"是絕對非同小可 不容小覷一定要做到非常的完整所以你要安全的審查它就需要時間可是我們現在看到今天國民黨跟民眾黨提出來修法的版本民眾黨是把要申請延長的時間縮短 從五年縮短到一個月至六個月"},{"start":12332.999,"end":12343.125,"text":"這個是縮短非常多那甚至有其他我剛剛提到邱正軍委員的版本甚至沒有提時間他只說法條裡面竟然只說你只要事先提出申請"},{"start":12344.665,"end":12349.846,"text":"事先提出那是不是在屆期前一天也叫做事先前兩天也叫做事先嗎這個審查如果把時間縮短的話會讓我們真的擔心未來安全的問題所以我還是要請等會和安會可以來進行說明如果現在這個假設這個要提出申請研議的對和安會來提出申請的話"},{"start":12370.43,"end":12375.751,"text":"他需要提供什麼樣的文件那需要進行什麼樣的檢查然後除了檢查之外他必須要提供什麼樣的哪些強化的這個準備那是不是要去提出新建幹儲設施的計畫來給河安會進行審查呢這個是第一點等會要請河安會來說明的第二點"},{"start":12394.156,"end":12399.002,"text":"除了核安會要審查之外其實台電有沒有要提出重點還是台電有沒有要提出他也要做內部的評估嘛所以我要請台電來說明你們會進行什麼樣的評估必須要評估哪些的標準跟事項因為剛剛很多委員在擔心啊"},{"start":12410.716,"end":12416.16,"text":"這個包含了現在的環評現在的地址等等台電會進行什麼樣的評估我想如果我真的要去討論讓研議這個時間要縮短的話國安也必須要清楚我們也必須要清楚到底會經過什麼樣的檢查目前有沒有相關的評估再來第三個我要問的問題是為什麼我們今天一再的強調核廢料的處置很重要"},{"start":12434.926,"end":12454.671,"text":"燃料棒的處置很重要因為以現行的情況來說我們的核一核二廠並不是全部都是因為借其滿了才除役我們的核電廠一號機原先表定的時間是可以運轉到110年12月27號但是提前在110年7月就停止運轉了為什麼"},{"start":12460.373,"end":12480.821,"text":"就是因為他的燃料池滿了燃料池滿了沒有辦法去處理和燃料池的問題導致於他沒有辦法繼續運轉那我們現在在問的問題就是現在即便這個國民黨跟民眾黨的提案要這個政府再去提出這麼多新的評估然後可能為了要和電廠研議再去做這麼多的這個花費的成本"},{"start":12484.742,"end":12492.168,"text":"但是最後如果你還是沒有辦法新建新的乾儲場你之後還是沒有辦法去處理燃料池會滿溢的問題它還是有可能必須要去停止運轉那我們真的有需要去付出這麼多前面的時間社會成本以及經濟成本嗎所以我們要再次強調為什麼去討論核分料的處置這麼的重要因為我們現在現行的就告訴我們了嘛就已經有核二廠就是因為燃料池滿了"},{"start":12513.163,"end":12517.946,"text":"不是借期不是時間到是滿了沒有辦法處理就沒有辦法繼續運轉所以等會這一點我也要請台電來去說明我們現在合一合二合三我們目前各個廠區廚藝的狀況以及過去的理由跟原因因為我想這個倘若今天國民黨民眾黨多數嘛等會我擔心主席還會再次停止討論又要強行通過這個法案的話那我想國人必須要去知道這相關的問題謝謝"},{"start":12541.263,"end":12558.678,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員我們請吳立華委員 謝謝陳佩儀委員 下一位好 謝謝主席我們在討論這個第六條那就是關心說到底執照要延長還是說強制申請換證那這個部分"},{"start":12561.821,"end":12581.798,"text":"到底是不是假議題因為剛才都有提到說我們先給他留一個彈性嘛法律的彈性空間嘛又不一定齁所以我就在想這到底是不是假議題齁所以麻煩等一下何安慧我是這樣子喔我個人啦我可能來的比較低階啦"},{"start":12582.879,"end":12608.3,"text":"我個人一聽到經濟考量什麼電價數字發電量我就渾身不舒服因為我覺得這個不僅僅是安全的問題也要考量到社會公平正義的問題所以當我們在談以蒼生為念的時候你到底是高瞻遠瞩還是短視盡力所以我在這邊我先請教一下假設我從屏東來 河山場"},{"start":12609.961,"end":12631.908,"text":"就是我們都知道這個河山場它確實是在恆春斷層的附近那也有一些研究說這個斷層可能有穿過這個廠區我等一下聽一下回覆好那這個長指西側的外海呢還有逆沖斷層更加增加這個地震發生的風險"},{"start":12633.268,"end":12655.105,"text":"那我知道的是光是這個低階核廢料的蘭嶼它在2011年的時候在它的潮間帶就已經偵測到G60所以確實有這個輻射外洩的這樣的一個恐懼那核三廠它當初的設計的時候它的耐震標準那到底是多少"},{"start":12655.825,"end":12681.603,"text":"那進行補強提升我知道有提升但是我也看到說專家評估如果發生比較大規模的地震可能這個地表加速度會超過這個數值所以我想這個部分我想聽一聽何安會的一個回應那再來我也要很關心的就是我們所謂的社會公平正義的體現那到底"},{"start":12684.249,"end":12697.268,"text":"我們能不能確保當地的居民有參與討論的權利絕對不要這樣子被迫的來接受決策然後呢就告訴我們經濟的考量因為電價會提升因為怎樣怎樣"},{"start":12698.939,"end":12724.348,"text":"我還是要提到我們必須要讓當地的居民有參與討論的這個權利不是要被迫接受政策所以這個部分如何在確保安全的前提下讓這些承擔最多風險的地方他也能夠擁有最有保障的未來我想這個部分才真正是以昌生為念謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員請陳佩玉委員"},{"start":12734.717,"end":12734.737,"text":"好"},{"start":12739.646,"end":12768.32,"text":"謝謝主席我雖然不是教育化委員會可是過去兩年確實我們已經討論過非常多次類似的議題但是我今天看到國民黨委員所有版本包含民眾黨委員提案的版本我還是感到非常的遺憾幾個問題他們今天在相關的發言當中也不斷的造謠那我想有必要讓我們一一澄清第一個就是他們只提研議但是研議所付出必須付出的代價跟成本他們完全不去討論完全不去考量"},{"start":12768.9,"end":12778.705,"text":"他們口口聲聲保證安全還說相關的責任在主管機關那我就問了 能夠主管機關這些專家學者每一個人是會通靈嗎為什麼我要這樣說福島核災發生的時候當時就有日本專家站出來所有之前在蓋這個核電廠的時候所有的環境評估都沒有人評估到海嘯但海嘯就發生了福島核災就發生了"},{"start":12793.172,"end":12822.812,"text":"那個是我們後來記取教訓之後我們學會某些經驗之後我們回頭再去看所以就算你們說發生的機率微乎其微甚至有人沒有邏輯的拿坐飛機這件事情來當成比喻我就覺得這個是一個非常荒謬沒有邏輯的說法所以如果連你們國民黨口中的日本 韓國 法國 美國都有很多難以預測的環境變因那請問在未來如果你們硬要通過這個第六條的修正"},{"start":12823.652,"end":12845.199,"text":"请问可不可以拿出来你们认为更可以说服国人的证据不要把责任都只有丢到主管机关身上我刚已经说过在日本的案例当中当时海啸并没有作为评估的环境因素那我想这个部分我还是希望待会主管机关可以回答我也希望你们不要碍于所谓立法委员的压力而没有办法说出真话"},{"start":12845.899,"end":12874.666,"text":"另外呢目前核電機組設備老化相關核災事故的風險上升我們在評估所有公共環境的安全因素的時候考量的是各式各樣的可能那當然會有所謂的偏差值但是我要說目前所有的人造物都會有老化的問題故障的問題用一個最簡單的邏輯從小孩騎的腳踏車到年輕人騎的摩托車到我們大人開的車都會有設備老化的問題"},{"start":12875.606,"end":12890.479,"text":"但是換一個車子的零件跟換一個核電廠相關設備的零件是一樣的嗎當然不一樣目前我們遇到的困境是反應爐壓力容器消防管道電纜電線鋼筋混泥土為主體都有老化的因素"},{"start":12890.939,"end":12911.042,"text":"在後續的研議當中請問我們有更多的國際經驗可以參考嗎我們有更多安全的數字可以提供給國人參考嗎我們真的可以讓國人放心嗎甚至對於反應爐壓力容器催化的問題目前國民黨跟民眾黨依然避而不談只有推動研議不討論真正的安全問題我還是覺得是非常大的問題"},{"start":12911.943,"end":12940.913,"text":"接下來我想要提醒張祺凱委員口口聲聲把電價上漲這件事情呢怪罪到民進黨身上我想要提供一個數字在法國他是用核電比超過六成的國家但是不管用任何能源他只要遇到二五戰爭類似的事情我要說的是類似的國際情勢能源都會上漲法國甚至漲到一百多趴請問這跟張祺凱委員剛剛講的有任何的關係嗎我完全看不出來"},{"start":12942.682,"end":12971.137,"text":"所以我要提醒就是以核電作為使用主要使用的國家法國依然遇到大漲電價的問題跟有沒有所謂的綠電再生能源一點關係都沒有接下來相關的研議成本如果沒有作為考量我們要問這些難道都不用算進發電成本裡頭嗎大家避而不談的是研議我剛說這些設備老化的問題都是用電成本請大家要有邏輯去看這個事情好 接下來"},{"start":12972.731,"end":12989.571,"text":"我們研議真的會有所謂的經濟優勢嗎國民黨跟民眾黨如同剛吳立華委員提醒的口口聲聲談經濟發展的優勢可是當時台電在估算研議的成本那個是在什麼時候預估的我不知道台電最近一次預估研議的成本是在什麼時候2014還是2018"},{"start":12991.693,"end":13012.045,"text":"一直到現在2025年了相關研議的成本我們連一般的蓋房子的成本都說已經上漲很多了難道研議的成本沒有增加嗎這個部分我要請台電回答明白的告訴所有關心這個議題的立法委員大家來看一看這個研議的成本算下去發電成本真的如你們說的是這麼划算嗎好 再來"},{"start":13014.231,"end":13031.943,"text":"雖然主席說我們已經有很多的討論跟很多的公聽會可是我認為在沒有社會共識的前提之下我們貿然就要做出這個決定甚至要用多數暴力表決的方法來表達你們的立場我也只能說我尊重但是我們在意的事情我們還是希望實質的討論當然我們還是希望主管機關可以作為回應還有關於國際發電成本上漲這件事情台灣到底在你的國際趨勢中是什麼樣的樣態而不要再讓"},{"start":13041.65,"end":13051.569,"text":"民眾黨的委員一直在造謠全部都怪罪到民進黨執政團體的身上以上 謝謝好 我們最後請汪小林委員簡短"},{"start":13055.029,"end":13075.55,"text":"我想在这边有几个科学的事实必须要说清楚第一个就是针对于全世界现在到底有多少的国家在延长核电厂或者是在新建核电厂的数据我相信这个是在IEA的网站上面都有可以清楚找到的"},{"start":13076.491,"end":13105.339,"text":"在2023年第28届联合国的气候变现大会里面就有22个国家倡议永和未来核能要增加三倍由此可见民进党的委员根本就不做功课也不去看看一下世界国家的发展的趋势然后第二个就是民进党政府已经执政9年了现在的核安会之前叫原能会所有的主委都是民进党政府任命的如果认为说现在的台电"},{"start":13105.979,"end":13119.913,"text":"不安全台电的这个核电厂不安全那么为什么不策划核安会的主委核安会监督无能对不对台电董事长也要换啊在你们的口口声声不是说核电厂不安全吗"},{"start":13124.341,"end":13143.209,"text":"一直都说不安全那不安全为什么不早点把核电厂就关掉了呢这个完全就是违背逻辑再说待会要请何安慧来说你的逻辑才有问题到底我们的耐震现在的核二核三厂二号机核三厂和二厂的耐震度跟海啸"},{"start":13145.249,"end":13169.139,"text":"這個相關的風險評估過去台電有沒有做過報告河安會有沒有去做過相關的評估報告我們的河二跟河三廠是通不過這樣子的一個耐震度嗎這以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們請河安會主委或相關部會列席人員來一併做個簡要回答那希望都可以回答到 謝謝"},{"start":13171.83,"end":13196.104,"text":"主席各位委員現在的核電廠是當年的原子能委員會給予40年的執照當初是根據40年的運轉期核發執照40年以後呢當初是沒有評估的所以呢"},{"start":13197.492,"end":13219.397,"text":"這要變成一個整體總檢查這檢查範圍變得非常非常廣比如說地震、颱風、海嘯、老化還有最近的福島事件引起的需要加強的部分這時候是將來要列入評估的至於要花多少錢"},{"start":13221.94,"end":13236.946,"text":"河岸會沒有這些資料 台電才有這些資料而且我現在也不知道有哪些零件要更換哪些東西要補強 要評估才知道所以這些"},{"start":13238.615,"end":13265.825,"text":"这些很多因素是要台电才知道要问要多少时间才能完成这个审车这个我也没有办法承诺因为有太多变数在里面我现在也没有办法承诺说台电申请了我就核准我没有办法做承诺要评估才知道是不是这个"},{"start":13267.452,"end":13295.884,"text":"還有呢 等一下我還會請那個河岸管制組跟保防應變組的組長也替我回答一些問題 特別是地震斷層這方面的問題 請他們也給我補充我看還有哪些大概我們先請河岸管制組組長給我回答 最後我再補充好不好"},{"start":13299.182,"end":13312.949,"text":"核安管制組請高組長有關委員剛才提到的地震議題核電廠在建廠的時候有針對長子鄰近的區域進行地質調查包括一些天然災害喂"},{"start":13327.83,"end":13355.173,"text":"好 那我重新再一遍核安管制組高平說明核電廠在建廠的時候是依照長者鄰近區域有進行地質調查包括一些天然災害來作為耐震設計的考量在2007年跟2009年三角斷層跟橫層斷層中央地調所公布資訊之後核安會要求台電公司是參考美國的做法進行一些地質調查跟安全提基系統的耐震強化"},{"start":13356.144,"end":13367.802,"text":"那另外在2011年日本福島事故後那也參考美國 核安會參考美國的做法就要求台電公司依照美國替證危害評估資深專家小組"},{"start":13368.891,"end":13392.736,"text":"的程序進行機率式地震文案分析那依照分析的結果來強化安全停機系統跟燃料的冷卻以及用過燃料池的結構完整性那之後再進行機率式的地震安全度的評估那主要目的是要確保在超越設計基準地震的時候基礎仍然可以安全停機也確保用過燃料池的安全"},{"start":13393.616,"end":13417.656,"text":"那針對那個委員有提到日本敦賀電廠這部分日本的管制單位針對敦賀鄰近有一個斷層那得出了一個結論就我們所知道的是說不能排除斷層的活動的可能性那另外也沒辦法排除斷層通過反映入正向方正下方的可能性所以目前我們了解的資訊是這樣"},{"start":13418.917,"end":13441.981,"text":"那有關於國外的安全評估這部分申請換照事實上在我們的法規是參考美國的相關規定來辦理就是要台電公司要針對整個電廠的老化評估跟老化管理以及老化分析等這些安全評估那當然設備的檢查跟更新這部分台電公司要辦理"},{"start":13443.134,"end":13463.439,"text":"那當然所有東西必須要經過修法通過後那台電公司按照他的可行性安全性進行整體的評估來確認說要不要申請以上說明好是否還是應該有不同部會嗎好保安應變組這邊來這個黃組長"},{"start":13467.051,"end":13492.824,"text":"是 保安應變組黃學元在這邊針對委員剛剛提到了國內目前發生最嚴重的核子事故就是在核三廠2001年它的3A事件那這個3A事件它的原因是因為上司延誤害上市所的外電導致全廠全黑兩個小時那之後因為靠我們的緊急才有發電機就起來"},{"start":13493.624,"end":13520.33,"text":"那這個在國際核能事件分級那國際核能事件分級大概簡單說分成三類一個就是對場外如果輻射影響到場外第二類呢是輻射已經到了場內那第三類就是說它基本上沒有輻射外勢但是因為深層防禦就是因為我們在安全系統上有各層那它是屬於第三類深層防禦失效所以它在"},{"start":13521.33,"end":13540.591,"text":"國際可能事件分歧INES這一部分它是第二類第二級那像福島它就是很大量的外食它就是第七級這是有關這個國內的核子事故的部分那剛我也提到說這個如果發生核子事故國內大概從核三廠來講"},{"start":13541.972,"end":13557.756,"text":"我們基本上目前是以所謂的超前部署預防性疏散的概念在輻射還沒有外適的時候我們就會優先來疏散3公里的民眾那以河山而言3公里內大概有7200位的民眾"},{"start":13560.177,"end":13584.235,"text":"那如果再嚴重我們會疏散八公里或是下風處那八公里的民眾目前是有三萬兩千位民眾針對核酸的這樣的數據如果再嚴重我們就會針對所有的輻射的熱點他只要是超只要是達到我們民眾應該疏散的那我們就會來疏散那依照目前"},{"start":13585.776,"end":13608.865,"text":"30公里整個河山的話大概有5萬4千個民眾我想在這邊提供一些數據給委員參考那接下來因為有問題提問是關於台電那董事長也在現場我們是不是也讓曾董事長回應好謝謝主席還有謝謝各位委員那個因為剛有非常多的提問我"},{"start":13609.895,"end":13629.412,"text":"能夠我接下來的我大概依照順序跟大家做一些回答首先第一件事情是我們一直在討論就是核電被怎麼定義它是不是綠電是不是永續能源是不是乾淨能源等等但坦白講這都是形容詞我講簡單一點就是Cov-23他那個講的時候他其實很清楚做了一個定義"},{"start":13636.138,"end":13661.598,"text":"其實是全世界的能源產業都需要融資那它針對融資把它做了一個定義就是它是不是永續能源的定義那它永續能源的定義大概做了一個事情它有兩段第一段就是否責任的就是你有沒有辦法處理核廢料這一件事比方說2050年前要能夠"},{"start":13663.221,"end":13673.721,"text":"處理高階核廢料能夠選址等等問題要解決然後現在能夠處理低階核廢料那在這種前提能夠達成的狀況下你是什麼樣的機組"},{"start":13676.069,"end":13694.636,"text":"它有三種樣態的規定包括在什麼時候拿到研議許可坦白講它是否一個可不可以被視為是融資的合理對象的一個項目啦那至於這個社會上現在國際流行定義的不管是R100或是什麼樣的狀況那個R1的狀況"},{"start":13698.246,"end":13713.011,"text":"是有一點點不一樣的但無論如何他的定義上面我想大家在各種的網路資料上面都可以問到這個台電公司不要多做解釋我們只是說客觀大概是這些事給各位委員做參考"},{"start":13714.071,"end":13730.624,"text":"這是第一件事第二件事情就是台灣的供電狀況台灣公司其實很努力在開發新的電源也讓我們的整個電網能夠更強韌那所有的供電狀況就是依照我們公布的電力供需報告在做執行"},{"start":13731.164,"end":13758.499,"text":"那依照現行的法律對台電公司來講我們是沒有辦法把核能考慮在裡面的所以接續的所有的目前眼前的所有的報告是沒有考慮核能這個項目的我們依然要維持供電穩定我想說跟委員會做說明那接下來就會進到一些相關的細節裡面我跟委員報告最主要的核安審查細節其實是有主管機關"},{"start":13760.34,"end":13779.495,"text":"來做審查坦白講大院是立法機關和安會或是過去的園人會是執法機關台電是遵法的機構我們是要去尊重依照法律去做執行的法律給了什麼樣的條件我們就必須做什麼樣子的一些工作對台電來說對台電來說"},{"start":13784.042,"end":13798.358,"text":"我們在過去其實做過很多跟河岸有關的相關的評估那如果真的要去做再進一步的評估哪些問題可以被克服其實台電完全沒有辦法講"},{"start":13799.926,"end":13819.199,"text":"因為這個要委員審查比方說剛才我們那個主管機關提到了就是我們有關於地震危害度分析等等過去從2012吧還是201幾年2011一直到2014有拿出來做報告然後在2016年已經上網的Shake Level 3等等的報告"},{"start":13820.779,"end":13835.564,"text":"包括大家最關心的地震危害度分析其實我們都有提那只是說這些地震危害的分析我們怎麼樣有效的管理跟克服這個需要專家給我們意見最後一點我必須要特別說明的"},{"start":13837.52,"end":13857.69,"text":"我剛才在這邊一直聽 不好意思各位有人容我說一下話因為台電公司其實這段時間以來一直在爭取我們的電價合理化跟大院的補助但我們如果一直不斷地強調和安是最重要的同時又把和安跟電價掛鉤這個對台電真的是不公平的事情似乎你不做這個事情電價不應該調整或是不應該給補助"},{"start":13868.752,"end":13881.931,"text":"我們算過他的比例 一再的做說明我覺得這個對台電真的不公道張委員 真的 這樣子一直講真的不公道"},{"start":13884.428,"end":13900.684,"text":"好 剛好我們經濟部次長就可以回應了我們是不是接著請經濟部的何政次來做說明好 謝謝昭偉 各位委員我想希望就是以這個委員的詢問來做回應有關心到綠電的價格的問題"},{"start":13903.326,"end":13922.935,"text":"其實綠電價格其實世界各國皆然大概就是說在發展綠電的初期它的單價都是比較高的但是隨著整個技術的進步整個綠電的價格會往下降以光電的費率來看我們的統計2010年每度電是高達到11.76但是已經下達到今年2025年每度電已經降到4.49"},{"start":13932.38,"end":13959.42,"text":"那下降幅度大概是六成的一個幅度那離岸風電的部分2017年每度電是6.04塊那下降到今年已經達到4.51的這樣的一個價格所以我們的再生能源的一個部分也逐漸從頓購走向企業購電其實大概七八年的時間其實相較於英國或德國他們從頓購走向"},{"start":13961.922,"end":13974.994,"text":"這個企業購電要十幾年的時間去台灣已經非常快速了那所以這樣的一個結果其實可以減緩這個台電對電價成本的這個影響所以以上跟各位做報告說明謝謝"},{"start":13976.155,"end":13991.622,"text":"好那因為剛剛有委員問到這個今天修法過假設有通過是不是就強制一定要使用核能或者是一些法條上的我想因為今天我們有法務部的代表是不是也請汪參事做個回應"},{"start":13994.868,"end":14018.801,"text":"主席跟各位委員大家好就法務部的立場來看這個問題因為今天主要是委員提案是要修這個母法的第六條的規定那其實我們有關這個提出的申請換發的執照是在審核辦法的第十六條那因為這個第十六條是由母法的授權來規範那如果真的要"},{"start":14019.821,"end":14036.329,"text":"在母法裡面修正的話那這個相關的審核辦法顯然一定也要配合修正才有辦法運作那但是這個部分涉及的非常廣因為這個核子反應器設施的運轉還有甚至再運轉這個涉及到這個原來的運轉執照的換發"},{"start":14042.212,"end":14062.181,"text":"因為這個問題涉及到的是非常專業的核能安全的技術還有相關的專業知識那這個必須是主管機關 核安會他們應該是要做一個相關的實證這樣子可能才比較有辦法做出就這個換發"},{"start":14064.382,"end":14087.776,"text":"審核所需要的時程還有安全條件還有什麼樣的方式要提出什麼樣的文件這樣做一個考量那這個部分可能需要真的是需要非常多層次多面向整體的配套考量那所以我們建議是不是還是應該是要先由主管機關和安會來做一個相關的實證還有專業的審慎評估來草擬一個條文"},{"start":14093.252,"end":14116.527,"text":"這樣子可能經由這樣主管機關專業的意見還有經驗的政策決定在大院的審議結果我們都應該這樣子就可以予以尊重以上 謝謝好 謝謝汪參事那因為我想我們也經過非常多的討論我們在整個會期質詢的時候也都提到我們在問相關問題的時候"},{"start":14122.773,"end":14127.098,"text":"我剛剛有一個問題我是說台電到底有沒有足夠的經費來評估這個研議的費用"},{"start":14131.587,"end":14158.498,"text":"成本因為在我剛剛提到2014年我們出估研議至少要花費580億是2014年台電的評估但現在已經11年過去了所有的成本費用一定都一定是相對提升請問台電現在有能力可以來做這樣子的一個研議的一個評估嗎請台電董事長回答那個跟委員報告就如果說這一個因為這所有的台電的支出大概就是要有預算"},{"start":14159.588,"end":14184.705,"text":"那2025年的我們是沒有編列預算這是事實啦就是說因為沒有這個基礎我們也沒有編列預算這個先說就是沒有這個預算那要怎麼樣子有預算可以執行我想說這個要另外做討論這是第一個部分第二個部分是研議要多少錢坦白說台電因為尤其是今天核能管制機關都在這台電不可能回答這一件事因為我到底要做多少事"},{"start":14186.041,"end":14214.449,"text":"要管制機關跟我講了我確定了才能做但我可以告訴各位一件事就是2014年的2014年那時候曾經說過一個數字這個數字到現在為止應該要有調整啦這個是跑不掉的然後我也要在這邊跟所有的委員報告一件事情就是全世界的能源價格之所以有調整它有兩個部分一個部分是變動成本就是燃料的高低的部分"},{"start":14215.149,"end":14241.845,"text":"其實在能源設備投資上確實遭遇通膨而全世界都在面對這樣子的一個就是能源投資的成本提高的一個問題我想台電願意接受很嚴格的監督我們可以來做一些討論就是說因為能源價格是國際上會有一個比較標準是不是只有台灣在漲價我希望有機會的話也能夠跟各位做一些說明就是"},{"start":14242.705,"end":14265.231,"text":"在漲價這件事不是台灣獨有的狀況而是真的全世界都在面對漲價的事那也因為有遇到通膨所以我們才會特別的謹慎這個跟委員做報告那剛才提到的報告委員我們今年沒有編但明年要怎麼樣我覺得我們原則上我們就是會尊重台電就是那一個會依照"},{"start":14266.673,"end":14287.404,"text":"指令去做工作的單位好那那個部分我是跟各位委員先做報告謝謝好好呃剛才還有舉手的是陳佩玉委員好然後呃張綺楷委員那我們是服事接下來就是范雲委員陳秀寶委員啊張雅琳委員吳佩玉委員跟柯志恩委員"},{"start":14289.209,"end":14313.39,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛謝謝台見董事長你也有提到關於COP大會的決議這件事情我也想要請您再幫我澄清看看是我們到底解讀資料有問題還是刻意造成錯誤的資訊散播當時在COP大會上其實提出核能要作為重要能源其實只是某些少數的國家它甚至不是大會的共識他們只是在外面自己開了記者會"},{"start":14314.631,"end":14343.713,"text":"但是我們看到當時在這國際大會之後有將近120個國家他們的最大共識是希望提高再生能源到目前的三倍也就是說世界各國不論是發展經濟照顧民生或者是所謂的能源政策大家都認為再生能源絕對是重要的未來讓地球永續的一條路所以如果COP大會做出這個決議但是卻有立法委員惡意的引用資料只是少數國家"},{"start":14344.854,"end":14359.58,"text":"開了相關的記者會就認為是所謂的大會共識我認為這件事情我們是不是要再一次的澄清也要感謝董事長剛剛提出那也許等一下你可以再給我回應看看我說的資料到底是不是正確的那他們當時的決議文其實是說到2030年再生能源到達三倍節能兩倍甚至他們連核能都沒有提到這是我看到大會共識的資料"},{"start":14368.724,"end":14389.094,"text":"另外您刚刚提到关于能源政策这件事情我非常谢谢你的回应确实张其凯委员屡次不管是在总质询或是非常多的委员会质询当中都刻意的说这是能源政策错误导致电价上涨我要再次强调我们目前所看到资料我认为这是错的等一下还请相关单位回应"},{"start":14390.302,"end":14412.533,"text":"目前我们看到资料是在全球的尺度上日本还有法国核能比占比比台湾高电价也比台湾贵电价涨幅也比台湾高日本的住宅涨了24%工业涨了50%法国的住宅涨了47%工业涨了65%其中工业电价还曾经出现139%的惊人涨幅"},{"start":14416.175,"end":14443.371,"text":"也就是说台湾其实也有学者说出来他甚至是挺核的学者廖慧珠老师都曾经公开说过不论能源结构是什么电价都有上涨而且涨幅跟能源结构不直接相关我要再说一次廖老师说涨幅跟能源结构不直接相关跟政府对电价的补贴和限制比较相关"},{"start":14444.071,"end":14466.896,"text":"不是依賴火力發電就漲得多核電跟綠電為主的國家也有調漲這是目前我們所蒐集到的資料我也想要聽一聽台電目前所遇到的困難跟在相關立法委員溝通上到底出現什麼樣的落差另外我也想問我目前服務的不分區任養的選區是金門還有連江也就是馬祖"},{"start":14467.856,"end":14496.134,"text":"因為他們是柴油發電燃料還有維修成本很高一度電來到十塊錢發電成本但是我們因為要比照公平的台灣居民用電所以居民繳的電價比照台灣只有兩塊到四塊多長期以來的虧損這中間發電成本跟居民繳納電價的虧損都是由台電吸收過去多年來台電一年要補貼三十幾億"},{"start":14497.575,"end":14502.557,"text":"我很想問如果按照張奇凱文的邏輯是不是這個補貼金門跟馬祖連江的高發電成本難道也是一個錯誤的能源政策嗎難道金門跟馬祖的選民不能享有公平的對待嗎如果按照你的邏輯每一個地方發電狀況不同就要用能源政策來亂扯這會造成什麼樣國人對相關知識理解上的誤差我也想要請主管機關幫我回應 謝謝"},{"start":14525.305,"end":14528.368,"text":"我剛剛去看了台電1月份的財報今年1月份台電虧損了97億虧損的最大原因"},{"start":14551.98,"end":14568.283,"text":"是因為去買風電的虧損56億光電虧損5.8億最嚴重是什麼這兩個再生能源加起來只有占所有用電量的8.5%可是它虧損高達60幾億為什麼會這樣子呢就是民眾一直在質疑的嘛你買太貴了你光是裡面的弊案到底出現了多少弊案"},{"start":14578.886,"end":14600.489,"text":"這才是民眾現在最關心的台灣現在出現的是什麼台電虧損 人民一直被漲電價然後人民納稅錢一起補結果呢 台電跌倒 銀豹吃飽飽有些些 多少民進黨的 親綠的這個綠能有關的 不管是光電的 風電的它是賺錢的"},{"start":14602.153,"end":14619.726,"text":"所以才會今天討論這個條文我們希望趕快 趕快讓這個電價是降下來的我提醒一個重點我們今天討論了一整個早上民進黨現在好像誤會了一個非常嚴重的點不曉得是故意裝傻還是誤導依照本來的條文你五年 宗教今天沒有修五年你還是可以提示申請啊申請完之後"},{"start":14630.205,"end":14658.996,"text":"我們還是要做安全的這個包括美國學者所有專家學者要進來審查這個機制是在的被民進黨講到這個機制是不行的我再提醒一次就現有的條文本來這個機制就是在的請不要污名化它覺得它是不行的第二個今天的修正重點是什麼只是把這個時間申請的時間提早向台灣民眾黨把五年希望變成是"},{"start":14661.822,"end":14682.64,"text":"一個月到半年 只把這個時間提早了可是尋的還是現有長久以來的審查機制啊專家寫者還是要進來啊他還是要確定他是安全才能做啊所以請民進黨不要販賣恐懼而且否定我們原來原有這個機制今天經過這樣討論包括剛剛台電的董事長都講"},{"start":14686.872,"end":14700.278,"text":"不要把電價跟這個核能掛鉤可是民眾看得清清楚楚啊你把核一 核二 核三廢掉五月二十五月十七號核三廠廢掉之後你是非核加鹽啊沒有錯 現在我們一度電是多少錢三塊多那核電一塊一塊是多少一塊多嘛"},{"start":14707.093,"end":14711.543,"text":"合一合二三加起來400多億度的電啊 乘以2.5左右就是1000億啊這邊是個大黑洞啊一堆黑人在那裡 大家都看得到現在民進黨看不到了"},{"start":14718.596,"end":14739.472,"text":"為什麼民進黨是故意裝傻還是看不懂那你剛剛講 剛剛陳培宇講說核電之外再生能源全世界都在用沒有錯啊 問題是沒有一個國家用像民進黨去買那麼貴的綠電啊你現在去看看我們的綠電的價格是比一般的世界貴了很多"},{"start":14741.308,"end":14757.382,"text":"然後還產生了一堆這個弊案就是因為有兩個這個大的漏洞所以今天在討論這個條文趕快用核電把一千億要回來然後讓人民這個綠電方面不要買那麼貴甚至現在台電自己不是都提出來嗎要減少這個虧損五大策略裡面一個把綠電趕快賣出去啊你就趕快多賣 電價就不用漲啊我最後做一個總結"},{"start":14765.742,"end":14783.668,"text":"請不要汙名化現有的審查機制今天核安會都在這邊各個相關的部會都在這裡相關單位都在這裡這是台灣長久以來經濟發展非常重要的幾個單位他們長久的捍衛我們的安全我們的核一核三到目前在全世界都還算是模範生"},{"start":14784.548,"end":14799.165,"text":"民進黨不要汙名化我們現有的核安會也不要汙名化我們的核一二跟核三他們對台灣是有經濟上很大的貢獻的請不要再繼續汙名化更重要的讓全民在民生方面在電價方面不要受到衝擊讓我們產業發展也不要受到衝擊我們現在發展半導體發展AI不就是要電嗎"},{"start":14804.059,"end":14819.623,"text":"民進黨不要給穩定不要給低廉的健備嗎謝謝好我們謝謝張旗改委員那接下來范雲委員那我們有很多提問如果一樣的話我們是可以盡快讓主委還有相關政府部會單元來回應謝謝范雲委員"},{"start":14824.038,"end":14844.574,"text":"我想藍白的委員一起擁核但是你們對核廢料到底到現在為止是提出了什麼解方今天我覺得奇怪的是台東達人金門烏雀我剛剛一直有講那是已經說出的低階的選址連公投都辦不了是不是請國民黨這兩個都是國民黨的現役委員告訴我們"},{"start":14849.258,"end":14872.74,"text":"就是說這個低階核廢料都沒有辦法處理的話那高階到現在更不用講的話你們的解方到底是什麼提醒大家除了剛剛講的那個國際上的綠能的相關的規定之外倫敦議定書就是倫敦公約等都規定最終不管是低階高階最終的儲置場都必須要在當事國"},{"start":14873.941,"end":14892.575,"text":"你們剛講民調 講公投六成六的台灣民眾不贊成核廢料放在自己的城市請問這是到底要放在哪裡日本到現在其實也一直沒有找到最終處置場"},{"start":14894.657,"end":14922.516,"text":"2023年日本有300多位他們開始評估說是不是要在北海道300多位地球科學家主張日本地質環境不穩定火山地震風險高沒有辦法像北歐一樣的方式去處理核廢料的最終處置那我不知道張祺凱委員你知不知道全球哪裡有最就是高階的核廢料的最終處置場張委員不知道你知不知道高階全球有幾座"},{"start":14925.823,"end":14943.887,"text":"你先回答我給你我的時間給你主席引起了全球 芬蘭都已經有對不對第二個我更要問你了那美國跟日本跟南海為什麼要用還沒找到對啊 他們為什麼用呢為什麼人家都可以用為什麼民進黨不能用呢他至少知道至少知道芬蘭可以繼續講嗎他至少知道97州芬蘭是唯一一個有高階核廢料最親密停止"},{"start":14955.29,"end":14964.454,"text":"他至少知道芬蘭是全球唯一一個有第一個高階核廢料最終處置廠但他不知道人家花了多少年的時間花了50年的時間從溝通選址經歷過公投"},{"start":14970.856,"end":14974.8,"text":"他1983年開始選址規劃這個地方2024年終於去年才落成花費了10億的歐元他是因為地質穩定花崗岩深處地下420公尺"},{"start":14986.713,"end":14990.477,"text":"可是還是有芬蘭人懷疑說那未來的人能不能夠解決這個問題我們在做芬蘭國會外交的時候說他們是經歷過公投公民討論我們剛剛講了我們的低階我們請各位委員坐在法條的討論還有我們行政官員非常辛苦來到現場"},{"start":15008.575,"end":15037.03,"text":"台東選民台東縣長花蓮為什麼都反對連低階的暫時的公投都沒有人家那是高階最終喔就是德國到現在還沒有找到高階的最終處置場德國是全國廢核那法國到現在高階的也沒有完成好不好所以請大家告訴大家法國是輸出國那是他的核能產業台灣是核能產業國嗎"},{"start":15038.45,"end":15039.032,"text":"好那我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":15041.36,"end":15051.444,"text":"那我們希望就因為行政官員很辛苦啦他們在現場要回應大家的問題希望以行政官員為主謝謝謝謝主席當然其他國家的經營我們是可以借鏡可以參考但是怎麼樣都沒有辦法把台灣的地址變成芬蘭的地址好來剛才我有提問就是關於恆春斷城的這個活躍性有沒有進行評估但你沒有回答有但是沒有回答我說我提出來的河山場的安全性"},{"start":15070.692,"end":15078.679,"text":"那也有回答到說多少公里如果是不同的級數多少公里的民眾要撤離大概人數是多少這個你們回答到了那我問到的就是說目前國際上研議的核電廠附近是有斷層的有哪幾個國間有哪幾個核電廠這個你們剛才沒有回答到"},{"start":15091.21,"end":15108.763,"text":"那另外呢我還想知道就是說目前最終處置場的部分呢我們國內為了這個最終處置場我們總共延宕多久過程中我們有曾經有哪幾個選址的地點我們遭遇到有哪些民意的反對那因為前三個禮拜這個"},{"start":15111.987,"end":15137.741,"text":"緬甸泰國的這個大地震其實它是一個很少發生地震的地區但是也竟然發生了這麼嚴重的地震可見就是說我們整個地球的整個環境的變化跟過往是不相同的那緬甸大地震發生之後呢我們中央氣象署及國際地震學者都說了台灣有可能會有連帶的板塊活動那我也想請教說如果發生了同等級的地震規模台灣的核電廠能不能承受"},{"start":15140.362,"end":15154.695,"text":"那其實我們沒有對核電廠汙名化我們也一直非常肯定核一核三的貢獻但如果我們有更好的選擇更安全的做法我們就要朝著安全的目標來前進那原能會"},{"start":15155.456,"end":15164.888,"text":"以前的原能會跟現在的核安委主委齁我相信不管是什麼政府任命他能夠做到這個位置都有他的專業我們都相信他可是他們的專業跟能力並不對核電廠的安全背書啊這是兩件事"},{"start":15171.275,"end":15176.299,"text":"核安會的主管 核安會的成員都非常認真我們信任你們的專業但是這個對核電廠安全與否這是不同的事情那我們擔心的是氣候或者是環境或者是地層的變化對核電廠的這個安全的疑慮這個誰能夠保證這不是核安會的能力再好你們的監督再好能夠保證的因為整個地層整個的環境的變化跟過往是不相同的"},{"start":15199.634,"end":15217.548,"text":"所以我這邊要再一次的問這樣子重要的問題就是關於整個地殼的變動關於整個氣候 極端氣候強風強降雨之下我們從前40年前的這個安全評估建立起來的河山場有沒有辦法面對這樣子的極端的氣候的變遷或者地層的變動 以上"},{"start":15221.711,"end":15248.724,"text":"主席抱歉議事問題我想要建議因為剛剛我也認同你講說應該讓部會多回答可是我們剛剛每個委員大概都有兩到三個問題所以第一輪現在其實二十幾個問題他們其實很難一次回答是不是可以問幾個就請他們先回答因為我第一輪好幾個問題都還沒回答到我們先因為剛剛都已經到張雅玲委員了所以我想我們是不是到接下來吳佩儀委員您提問然後那個我們休息五分鐘然後讓部會也可以準備一下"},{"start":15250.763,"end":15256.953,"text":"吳佩儀委員請對到純秀堡委員之後是吳佩儀委員對"},{"start":15266.747,"end":15280.453,"text":"所以好也許剛剛我們沒看到所以我再講一次那就是詹雅琳委員吳佩儀委員這樣那待會我們吳佩儀委員之後會休息五分鐘那之後是劉書斌委員柯志恩委員林怡錦委員謝謝"},{"start":15281.837,"end":15303.35,"text":"好 謝謝其實我剛有個問題就是說研議如果照評估來說要研議的這個所需要的審查時間到底要多久就是以國際來看一般來說是多少因為我看到有22個月到11年都有如果以我們現在來說一般如果我們現在要研議大家要多少時間重啟大家要多少時間因為現在"},{"start":15305.871,"end":15325.424,"text":"大家一直不停的在講就是說因為AI要發展我們需要電但事實上我們現在到底審查的期限會不會根本緩不及急啦源水救不了近火這樣子第二個部分我也想要請教經濟部我們現在在規劃的一些不管是"},{"start":15326.785,"end":15350.323,"text":"這些綠能的電網等等的我們有沒有算到AI發展所需要的電力這部分可能請待會經濟部來發展一下如果我們現在已經有涵蓋到的話那我們不是如果最重要大家都很在乎AI很希望AI發展我們不就應該要趕快從現行的解決方案來做才對嗎所以待會請何安跟經濟部來回答我這兩個問題謝謝"},{"start":15354.486,"end":15372.339,"text":"抱歉 最後一件事情最後一件事情補充就說其實因為之前朱立文黨主席在當新北市長的時候他曾經一直不停的在重申如果無法處理核廢料憑什麼使用核能只要我擔任市長一天就不會讓核四運轉有核安問題核四就不應該存在"},{"start":15372.879,"end":15395.893,"text":"那剛剛呢 許多要選地方縣市首長的委員呢例如張祺凱委員啦 謝榮介委員啦他們也都不停的在講要以蒼生為念所以我是建議啦他們要不要直接在他們未來要選縣市長的政見裡面講核廢料就放我的縣市以蒼生為念我來處理如果你這麼支持一定要來用核電的話"},{"start":15398.015,"end":15401.477,"text":"好那我們請這個吳佩儀委員那待會休息五分鐘好剛剛我第一輪有一些問題還沒有回答到那首先第一個是依照我想請何安慧回答依照我們現行的法規條文若要演繹必須要"},{"start":15416.284,"end":15419.665,"text":"提前5年之前來申請那我們是依據什麼樣的考量認為是需要5年的時間是相關的安全標準有沒有參考國際的標準等等那因為現在今天不會是沒有版本的不會是沒有版本的"},{"start":15432.529,"end":15445.336,"text":"那就代表我們部會認為現行條文的運作就足以來也足夠才有足夠的安全的把關但是現在在野黨提出來的版本有要把時間縮短到一個月"},{"start":15448.018,"end":15454.384,"text":"半年然後甚至有根本沒有期限的就前一天就可以來提出這樣的擔憂會不會影響到未來在安全審查上面的這個把關這是第一點就是核安會目前的現行條文五年之前這是參考什麼樣的標準那第二個剛剛核安會說明說因為核安會是主管機關台電是執行單位"},{"start":15470.06,"end":15472.182,"text":"就是說未來倘若這個法真的通過導致於核三還有研議的可能那台電如果做了內部的評估要來向我們核安會申請的時候是不是要包括剛剛核安會說明說要包括可行性安全性的評估那這個當中是不是有包含乾除設施"},{"start":15490.72,"end":15515.276,"text":"的興建計畫是不是也包含在你的可行性跟安全性當中那為什麼問這個問題因為其實今天在逐條之前在上次的詢答當中依據台電的回答河山廠如果要來研議然後這個乾除設施還必須要先經過地方政府的同意然後還有工程等等至少至少七年是最低起跳的七年是最低起跳所以今天就算這個修法通過"},{"start":15516.997,"end":15540.171,"text":"要能夠放寬然後重新核三廠要來評估要不要研議的話那至少是要七年以上才有可能使用而且那還是在核安會的審查有通過的情況下都有可能台電停出但是核安會審查沒有過所以這個時間的成本燈會也要請台電再來說明最後剛剛我有請台電來說明我們現在核一核二核三廠廚藝的現況為何"},{"start":15543.553,"end":15569.405,"text":"好然後再來的問題是最後一個問題是我們河山廠啊倘若未來要評估演繹的話我們關鍵的核心要問的還是我們的燃料池夠放嗎按照我們現在河山廠燃料池儲存的這個狀況你們評估還可以再儲存幾年好謝謝因為我們今天到目前為止都還沒有休息我們就先休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":15593.711,"end":15596.694,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":15601.963,"end":15616.234,"text":"他花了五十年才確定我們連高放的場址都做不出來是因為我們的地址變更大而且我們連地階的都沒有人要收啊所以才會放在那裡因為日本多大台灣多大對咩安地俠人說這裡經過幾年"},{"start":15628.843,"end":15639.21,"text":"我信不起一次耶老公我真的受不了了,我好餓喔怎麼辦?有沒有便當啊?沒有便當喔?對啊,還是要休息長一點對啊,沒便當一點耶好餓喔"},{"start":16388.697,"end":16413.687,"text":"好請劉淑冰委員好謝謝主席我剛才在第二輪還是第一輪的時候有提到一個問題因為核安會還是沒有回答就是說關於重視核安的話那個核安三法有沒有現行的行政院版本他提出來修法這部分有沒有時程表那有的話那是什麼樣的內容"},{"start":16420.582,"end":16440.738,"text":"民眾黨是把它當作過渡性的能源在於再生能源如果沒有辦法達到目前政府所說到的情況之下包括它是一個間歇性能源不能作為基站能源它必須要有儲能設備達到搭配的情況之下才能夠作為一個可以永續發展的能源所以我必須再這樣講"},{"start":16441.599,"end":16460.685,"text":"第二部分我們剛才看到的是再生能源的部分就是台電有提到它的一個費用我們可以看到在目前的資料當中全世界在做比較的時候台灣它作為還是以化石能性能源最多的時候目前的再生能源大概就11點多%的情況之下"},{"start":16463.126,"end":16478.894,"text":"他的這個購電成本就是已經讓台電虧損了但事實上這個虧損是一直就有的但是我們最近又看到了這連續三年以來台電的這個購電成本當中再生能源他自己發的再生能源當中是2.34塊是還算好但是在"},{"start":16482.376,"end":16492.121,"text":"在外買的這個電費的再生能源當中呢是5.81塊 一度是5.81塊那如果從111年 112年 13年這個情況之下它事實上就從4.75塊一直到5.46塊我重點是在於說台電的購電成本它有購那當然有它的賣出去賣出去就是我們現在的電價大概是2點多塊可是它的購電成本的情況都是在以剛剛我說的那個情況"},{"start":16509.511,"end":16530.294,"text":"都是高於的尤其是購買的成本是這五點多塊的情況之下是不是雖然我也知道是再生能源是有短購的價格短購二十年的情況那這個在已經有條約的情況是不是可以在我們已經看到的是再生能源很多的是現在有發生弊案那弊案呢又其包括說它再生能源那麼高是不是可以考慮在"},{"start":16531.99,"end":16550.242,"text":"買跟他購電的這個情況是屬於民間的業者他適時在合理成本之下要求他調降要供給時間就算利潤的合理的情況要達到這部分我想要去請大家知道因為你購電成本這麼高的話就是沒辦法降尤其是我們的補貼是本來就有而且現在看起來是你要針對問題去解決這部分請台電部分要提供一個合理的這個可能性是如何試著要去提"},{"start":16558.547,"end":16574.178,"text":"體恤民眾的所苦甚至我們可以看到是台電在所有的全世界我們不是採取核能的我們不是我們並不是產能源的最主要的國家但是我們的這個電費不管是民生用電或工業用電都是在全世界第三第四便宜的"},{"start":16575.158,"end":16603.725,"text":"這種情況是合理嗎但是事實上就是討論到這個購電成本把它降掉我就要把它理解起來那另外的一個情況是說想要再問的是核安會就是或是說核安的這個研究所這邊可以提出來就是說到底我們在討論在核能安全的情況因為民眾黨一直提到的是要在核能安全條件無比的情況才做那這個部分尤其是我們提到的是"},{"start":16604.665,"end":16625.013,"text":"一個 我們是針對一到六個月提出的那是因為過去民進黨他在 他是一致性政府的情況當然他就他不會有提到他當然非核家園可是現在是我們面臨到這個問題是在於說提供一個可能性因此包括是一到六個月是目前現在台灣在面對台核三的這個第二場核二場 核三的"},{"start":16627.054,"end":16637.026,"text":"第二個基礎所遇到的問題我們提出來實時在面對問題更重要的是如果主管機關他也跟著做如果借企的其實他也可以提出來我們是希望說針對這部分呢好好的把這樣的一個和安的這個標準弄出來之後才去做他在這個研議的部分所以民眾黨特別要請大家知道他是在因應"},{"start":16646.858,"end":16657.343,"text":"再生能源條件還不足的時候他做一個研議核電做一個再過渡性能源的一個需求那就請那個環安會或是他相關的研究機構對於說到底要什麼強項去做說個說明謝謝好謝謝劉素冰委員那我們請柯志恩委員"},{"start":16668.173,"end":16692.748,"text":"刚刚所有的委员的确是发出非常多的问题我想不管是河安会或是台电可能目前都在做一个准备我还是回应到我刚刚在质询台上面所提到的我说实在的主委您是回公背井的可是你刚刚我们被问到的时候你都说你没有办法做成决议然后台电当然也特别提到了依法上你们是执行的单位所以你们是依法来做事对不对"},{"start":16693.388,"end":16707.816,"text":"那很显然我们所提到刚才委员每个人所说到的这个安全的问题一个是执行做事一个是也没有办法现在告诉我们要如何来评估所以我们这样讨论再讨论到五点钟下去我不晓得结果会是什么样子所以说呢"},{"start":16708.656,"end":16723.007,"text":"回應到這個部分裡面到底等一下我加一個問題好了到底誰可以來做一個你們的專家小組我剛特別提到了和安會沒有發函請行政院再次召開第七次的小組的會議你們有沒有機會可以來做這樣一個事情"},{"start":16723.607,"end":16745.988,"text":"由行政院的这个所谓的专家小组真正涵盖不同的专家小组里面对于我们刚所提到的这些问题来做一个彻底的说法否则的话每个人提出问题来不管是断层问题不管是海啸问题或者有些人认为说基本上有很多人提出他过去来说是很有这个安全性的这个部分"},{"start":16746.348,"end":16770.996,"text":"我们永远在这个地方去做一个打转如果你真的要去提的话那我也可以加一个问题啊比如说我们现在是我们这个能源50%的天然气的一个配比目前它的负载量已经超出了它的超载量然后我们这个有关于这个扩建这个储存槽的问题有谁愿意在它的现实里面做这个扩建储存槽的问题这跟核飞的问题是一样嘛"},{"start":16771.596,"end":16785.06,"text":"所以我個人覺得以這個問題來說如果核安會沒有辦法做出任何一個安全的部分是否可以透過行政院發函請行政院然後呢召開核安小組裡面然後給我們一個更準確的一個評估否則沒完沒了我們也不曉得我們這邊要到什麼樣的程度這個中心是我們耗在這邊講到五點鐘八點鐘大家還是各自的方法然後呢我們的兩個兩大主管單位還是告訴我你沒有辦法評估"},{"start":16800.185,"end":16811.39,"text":"你沒辦法做決定然後另外告訴我我們只是依法來做執行單位那我不曉得我們坐在這邊在幹什麼所以說呢我覺得這個部分裡面透過更高層次的人告訴我最後的一個定向到哪裡我覺得這是比較能夠解決的方法啦謝謝柯市長委員我們請林益錦召委"},{"start":16822.023,"end":16837.218,"text":"謝謝主席 我想剛講那麼多那我們就不妨來聽聽核三廠所在地的屏東縣政府怎麼說屏東縣政府今天知道我們教委會要審查這個核電廠營業的條文那特別傳了訊息來跟我表達他們的看法"},{"start":16837.899,"end":16855.783,"text":"屏東縣政府強調非核家園是台灣的國家政策目標這個目標就明文規定在環境基本法第二三條和經濟部能源發展綱領中屏東縣政府也說會尊重且全力配合中央的能源政策並將持續推動綠能產業和能源永續發展"},{"start":16860.184,"end":16886.349,"text":"這個月初 核三廠傳出火警當時現場冒出濃濃的黑煙在地民眾都非常擔心可以說一旦核電廠有任何的風吹草動大家都很緊張再次請教在場的各位委員你們所在的縣市願意承擔任何的核安風險嗎拜託請大家聽聽在地政府的心聲己所不欲 勿施於人"},{"start":16887.529,"end":16909.919,"text":"我想剛剛柯支援委員也有提到這件事情有哪個縣市願意讓大家來承擔這樣的風險嗎那所以我想今天也談了那麼多那當然我們要請這個河岸會跟台電來再進一步做說明所以我們今天演繹那麼多的這個風險那麼多的不確定性還有我們所關心的核廢"},{"start":16911.874,"end":16928.642,"text":"研議越久 核廢越多這是不爭的事實嘛那核廢沒辦法處置那這個是問題那為什麼要研議都沒有辦法處置那核廢越來越多那這樣的一個能源發展的政策"},{"start":16929.702,"end":16939.255,"text":"當然是要否定他嘛當然要尋求其他的能源發展政策嘛因為這條路是行不通所以我想這個大家深思的問題也是今天我們面對這個核官法最嚴肅的問題以上"},{"start":16960.029,"end":16982.668,"text":"好我們謝謝我們剛剛的發言那發言完畢那這個主席因為我還有一些問題要問那是要先請部會先回答我等會再提問好先回應一下好剛剛柯市長委員還有這個民進黨委員都有一些提問您可不可以明確的簡短回應我因為這很多問題要回答"},{"start":16989.628,"end":17017.223,"text":"首先剛剛委員問研議要到了這個知道到期前5年要提出申請這原因是研議是要花時間準備就是台電要花很多時間來準備這些資料然後我們評估這個安全要不要研議呢是要花時間的"},{"start":17019.546,"end":17036.275,"text":"因為當初立法意旨是無縫接軌40年之後就繼續在運轉並不是中間不停的所以要5年前就要申請而我們河岸會呢就是當年原子能委員會也可能要退回"},{"start":17037.898,"end":17059.913,"text":"退回补建甚至不预核准等等可能性都有所以要花很多时间来处理这事情才有办法做到无缝接轨当年立法一直是这样现在呢今年5月17号河山场2号机之后都到齐了"},{"start":17061.212,"end":17090.025,"text":"那時候就必須停機沒有其他的方法必須停機這是我們法律所規定的必須停機如果要申請的話也要台電做好準備多久我不知道看台電準備的程度而定我們審查時間多久我也不知道要看情況而定而且要多少那個"},{"start":17091.708,"end":17101.156,"text":"零件要更換多少核安措施要強化這些都要經過品質估而且需要時間當然需要經費關於核安三法修法的時程表好像兩年前我們曾經提過"},{"start":17121.414,"end":17142.22,"text":"有發函過等一下我們再請你再發言等一下我也請有關地震等等請我們河岸管制組跟"},{"start":17149.671,"end":17154.737,"text":"核物料管制組來兩位組長來給我們說明一下現在請高組長給我們的"},{"start":17166.091,"end":17184.363,"text":"有關於委員關心的恆春斷城對河山場的影響那在2009年中央地教所公布恆春斷城是第二類活動斷城的時候當時候河安委就要求台電公司就是要進行地質調查跟耐震補強那後續就是進入"},{"start":17187.746,"end":17214.108,"text":"2011年日本輔導的時候核安衛就是參考美國核管會的做法要求台電公司就是剛才有提到要參考美國核電廠執行SHECK的程序來針對核三廠的安全停機系統進行耐震強化那可以達到的強度那如果以氣象署的分類最大震度7級那至少可以達到7級以上"},{"start":17215.826,"end":17230.197,"text":"另外有關於核安會當時候現行的核管法申請換照所需要的時間至少要執照到期前5到15年這部分當時候是參考美國核管會的做法"},{"start":17230.757,"end":17248.419,"text":"那主要考量是說核安會在審查台電公司如果他提出申請案核安會本身所需要的審查時間那另外核安會會提出一些審查意見那台電公司必須要進行答覆那答覆完之後核安會也要進行審查確認"},{"start":17249.6,"end":17263.676,"text":"另外也要考量說台電公司要有充裕的時間在執照到期前完成設備的檢查跟更新那主要就回到剛才主委所說的就是在執照到期的時候可以持續的運轉"},{"start":17265.539,"end":17290.763,"text":"另外以目前機組來看,審查所需要的時間確實各國的審查經驗所需要的時間也不盡相同目前國內機組如果要研議換照的話主要還是要看台電公司辦理一些安全評估、設備的檢查、更新當然也要顧慮到新建乾除設施所需要的時程"},{"start":17291.417,"end":17301.048,"text":"那整個都要通過河岸會的安全審查跟現場查證那這部分會依照機組的狀況不同所以所需要的時間確實不容易估"},{"start":17303.575,"end":17331.506,"text":"國外的核電廠如果我們用美國加州位在加州的魔鬼谷核電廠它的臨近場址有兩條斷層就我們所知道的話最近的距離大概有三四百公尺就是離場區目前魔鬼谷核電廠在2023年再次向美國核管會申請研議目前美國的核管會還在審查當中以上說明"},{"start":17340.287,"end":17351.452,"text":"各位委員報告一下有關核廢料的相關議題那剛才許多委員都追尋到有關幹室儲存議題那幹室儲存是這樣那目前國內核一廠已經儲存6874宿核二廠10868宿核三廠3785宿那目前核一廠的室外幹儲"},{"start":17366.961,"end":17376.74,"text":"將來運轉後它可以儲放1680宿台電公司已經在今年的1月20提出建造資料申請"},{"start":17377.95,"end":17397.015,"text":"那本會也在審理中那台電公司預計是申請雖然是申請40年不過我們規劃只會核准20年最長一來是將來可能要積極地督促台電公司將這個整個室外乾儲的核衛料將來把它搬到室內乾儲"},{"start":17398.095,"end":17421.666,"text":"那二廠的甘蠢台丁公司也今年開始動工興建那我們也定期來做執行檢查整個後續台丁公司會接的是四年甘蠢那四年甘蠢一二廠台丁公司在網路上都有發布訊息他們目前已經在招標作業中那河山廠的部分也進行文件的公告閱覽"},{"start":17426.137,"end":17429.326,"text":"處置的部分 跟各位委員補充一些國際的資訊剛才有委員提到"},{"start":17434.761,"end":17459.315,"text":"目前幾個發展 先進國家發展有進度的國家芬蘭在2021年的12月提出運轉執照那2024年的8月進行試運轉那目前還在持續進行高放除資設施的試運轉它的主管機關已經決定延遲審查期限到今年12月最快 今年12月才會通過"},{"start":17460.916,"end":17488.878,"text":"瑞典的部分2022年的1月合法建造執照2025年開始興建興建完後續還是要經過試運轉跟運轉執照的申請法國是在2023年的1月提出建造執照建造執照目前在審查中國內因為經濟部最近也有成立專案辦公室準備來解決高放處置選址的一個立法的工作"},{"start":17489.935,"end":17509.677,"text":"另外剛才有委員也提到了政府對於核廢料那成立了非核家園的這件事情那也跟各位委員說明一下非核家園其實在106年3月行政院審核通過非核家園設置要點"},{"start":17510.618,"end":17524.434,"text":"那小組召集人由永續會的執行長來兼任那河南會只是成員之一那其中也包括眾多部會衛福部、人民會、經濟部、環境部、內政部等等還有學者專家、民間團體"},{"start":17525.715,"end":17550.468,"text":"那在這期間 其實也進行了六次的會議那因為委員一直長期關切這個議題所以本會在111年 應該是在111年的時候也曾經函請那個會合加人小組能夠來召開會議那後續那個會合加人小組會合加人專案推動小組在"},{"start":17551.969,"end":17574.395,"text":"那個113年的5月8號召開了第7次的工作小組會議那台電公司在現場在當天有報告核電廠廚藝中級戰術設施的一個推動相關議題我們也了解到委員關切議題所以也會再來思考後續的作業以上說明 謝謝簡短 謝謝"},{"start":17580.123,"end":17581.644,"text":"整理&字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":17604.861,"end":17617.416,"text":"那剛才也有委員提到第七次河南會議的部分主委要不要回應一下對第七次河南會議請主委因為這個是你們也可以請行政院來開會嘛"},{"start":17619.271,"end":17642.743,"text":"這是依法需要做這件事情,已經四年沒開了,好不好?我跟委員說明,我們是確實可以發函,不過我講過我們只是一個眾多成員之一沒關係,你們把函發出去,壓力是由行政院來,你就可以起碼告訴我因為它其實有非核小組啊,的確是有非核小組啊你們像四年你們擺在那個地方,然後四年都沒有,然後到時候每個人都要罵你們何安何必呢?對不對?"},{"start":17643.923,"end":17651.448,"text":"這本來就是依法 本來就是要發函然後怎麼樣再召開 何時召開我們就會再來追嘛 對不對你們可不可以做到這件事因為這樣才有辦法得到更深層的有關於安全 大家所安全的顧慮啊否則你們這邊繞過來繞過去我都聽不到也不敢講到底安不安全你們都不敢講第四級單位真的是辛苦你們了本來還有第三線到第四你們能夠做什麼決議 好不好你們就做這樣的一個動作然後由上面來看看怎麼樣"},{"start":17668.379,"end":17689.864,"text":"因為我們還有一些什麼氣候變遷的小組啊還有很多都是跟這個環環相扣嘛一定可以收集更多專家學者的意見嘛不用讓你們河岸會來這邊也把我們耗在這個地方啊真的完全沒有辦法所以可不可以發函我們可以 還不可以好 謝謝那最後那個剛剛吳佩奕委員好像有各自一個簡短的好不好經紀辦沒有回答我對 那就麻煩吳佩奕委員你要不要先講一下你的問題"},{"start":17699.672,"end":17711.948,"text":"剛剛委員有提到說我們的用電的需求沒有考慮到未來其實我們有包括AI還有半導體的用電需求我們每年都有在做滾動檢討我們現在目前推測2024到2028年"},{"start":17715.652,"end":17726.099,"text":"每年用電量大概會成長2.5%那以去年來講當然就是符合我們的推測值大概2.5%那未來大家會擔心說電夠不夠用其實我們這個去"},{"start":17733.683,"end":17761.355,"text":"算說廚藝的那個燃煤的機組跟新增的燃氣機組我們這樣統計起來的話2032年新增的燃氣機組可以增加1636萬千瓦的這個用電所以我們可以保證到2032年的這個用電事實上是沒有匱乏的所以你說到2032年我們已經有估算到半導體跟AI所需要的電是沒有問題的對嗎是這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":17763.882,"end":17789.233,"text":"好 那吳佩儀委員要不要簡短提問好 其實我剛剛有想要請台電可以說明現在我們三個核電廠處理的現況那但是我現在是我想要說的是其實剛剛柯志恩委員要求說要在開完召開這個核安會議那希望有對於安全有更多更完整的討論"},{"start":17791.195,"end":17810.009,"text":"那我也同意啊如果我們要討論安全的話今天其實現場的說明是不足以讓我們確保未來的把關是安全無虞的而在我們剛剛不管是核安會還是台電的說明當中我認為我們今天至少可以確認一件事因為當初在野黨有些委員提出修法的時候是希望核三廠"},{"start":17810.649,"end":17835.178,"text":"在這個屆期滿之前如果這個法律方寬的話有沒有機會在屆期之前就提出這個換照的研議的申請然後得到換照但是按照我們剛剛確認的幾個事實就是說他審查需要時間即便是按照現在民眾黨的版本一個月到六個月前向核安會提出他審查也沒有辦法在核三廠屆期之前就審查完成"},{"start":17838.599,"end":17845.104,"text":"所以我是認為我同意可以討論但是我們不需要急著在今天對於剛剛大家也都認為說今天我們對於未來這個修法通過到底安全把關要包含哪些我們今天沒有獲得到充足的資訊我是反對在今天倉促的把它送出委員會我覺得對委員會成員之一來講會覺得這樣很不負責任"},{"start":17858.277,"end":17872.606,"text":"那我們也同意要更多的討論那既然現在已經很明確了你不可能在今天通過之後就在河山場到期之前通過換照這是不可能的事情現實就是如此我覺得今天真的不宜倉促初委員會我們可以再繼續討論好 謝謝"},{"start":17876.048,"end":17887.181,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員我想今天這個剛剛你也說了有更多的討論那我想這個今天這個議案在第六條的部分我們目前是沒有共識的"},{"start":17891.625,"end":17900.629,"text":"呃好可以這樣我我這邊您您檢你是要提向官員提問嗎因為我剛剛的問題他們還是沒有回答我就是對翁小林委員還有張其凱委員的造謠我覺得還是要以正視聽沒有這個我們都有記錄抱歉陳培委員因為我想剛剛我們也聽到官員都說台電說是遵法單位那主委也對於這個法條"},{"start":17913.015,"end":17939.597,"text":"主席不好意思我剛剛問的不是法條的內容我剛剛問的是實際上他們在說不管是電價的數字它的務用還有關於扣門的會議剛剛台電回答了台電董事長剛剛回答了對我在二輪發言的時候我再問一次他們沒有把相關的數字說出來台電董事長有沒有簡短的我剛剛是聽您已經回答了對可以再講一次我們從這邊發言"},{"start":17942.519,"end":17968.076,"text":"我把過去已經做過的說明都跟委員再說明一次首先第一件事情就是關於核電的定義現在全世界大概比較清楚有比較多人討論的大概就是上一次各位委員講的那就是一個永續融資的那一個標準那它有兩個是第一個原則上它是針對兩個部分在說說一是核能廚藝的相關條件要達成"},{"start":17971.698,"end":17978.663,"text":"這是確實有的第二個就是它針對你的期限就是新機組是什麼樣的狀況研議機組是什麼樣的時間它是針對這兩個但反而它都是否一個目標就是這樣子的條件達成的時候是符合金融機構融資的許可的條件我想說這是一件事那大家怎麼樣去研議它我想也不是我能夠說明的第二個事情我特別要那個"},{"start":18001.898,"end":18030.217,"text":"台电的网站公布了我们的再生能源发电的成本以及我们购电的成本我回去我会把我们的网站做一点改进我把我们每个不同的元素的成本都把它分开标好了因为台电现在一篮子标因为我们有那个很早期现在已经18年的陆玉丰电那个成本很低就一块多那个大概是现在成本最低的再生能源了"},{"start":18031.414,"end":18060.265,"text":"那我想這邊要做會跟各位做一些說明那至於核電我最後跟委員報告一件事情就是說我們有說過就是他大概對電價的影響大概是0.1元0.11到0.12左右這個已經長期有一直在說明但是研議以後會怎麼樣就不確定為什麼因為研議要花多少錢我現在無法回答各位他現在是以折舊攤提已經完成的狀況下他還是有部分要去攤提"},{"start":18061.923,"end":18075.168,"text":"和後端的成本的涉算的前提下才會有那我這樣講這個就是具體的內容跟各位做報告好謝謝那我想我們本案這第六條的部分我想這個有沒有"},{"start":18078.379,"end":18106.01,"text":"有沒有共識那如果沒有共識我們這邊有一個提案啦就建議第六條呢我們是不是就停止討論因為我們真的已經有非常多充分的發言那第六條只針對第六條那第六條停止討論那第六條含修正動議保留後送院會協商處理好不好那是否有當敬請公決提案人謝榮介林沛翔羅廷偉葛如君好有沒有異議"},{"start":18107.711,"end":18115.296,"text":"好那我們好謝謝好那我們就是否我們就請議事人員清查在場出席人數"},{"start":18118.103,"end":18144.106,"text":"那是先這個還是先剛剛那個討論那是先好那剛剛民進黨這裡有針對何志凡核管法第6條條文之宣就是我們剛剛講第6條表示意義要求點名表決我們先針對這一點提案提案人林一錦委員范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員郭育琴委員那我想我們就請議事人員清查在場人數我們先做"},{"start":18144.867,"end":18163.046,"text":"要求點名表決的這個表決 舉手表決在場14位 那贊成這個要求點名表決 贊成者請舉手好 贊成7票 反對者請舉手"},{"start":18168.376,"end":18190.875,"text":"好可否同署金主席裁決不通過那我們就繼續用這個舉手表決那我們來看這個剛剛所提的案由這個建議停止討論的這個案由那第6條第6條含羞震動以保留後送院會協商處理那贊成者請舉手好贊成者7票反對者請舉手"},{"start":18203.444,"end":18221.78,"text":"好 反對者7票那可否同署經主席裁決通過送院會這個協商處理那今天因為許委員所提的版本因為許委員不在場我們就保留在本會定期審查那關於今天會議做的協議如下"},{"start":18222.641,"end":18247.731,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關尤其是我們剛提到的第七次核安會議還有我們很多民進黨委員提的問題也都希望能夠儘速的以書面答覆那核子反應器設施管制法修正草案核管法修正草案除了徐信義委員的提案版本以外已全部審查完略那第六條我們剛剛有決議是還有修正動力交協商"},{"start":18251.593,"end":18273.749,"text":"那須交由黨團協商並按擬據審查報告提起院會討論院會討論時由各召集委員如均補充說明那為及包含許委員提案為及審查部分令定期繼續審查那報告我們會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":18285.168,"end":18297.71,"text":"然後還不敢表決不敢那個最主要是不敢記名表決敢做不敢當啊敢做不敢當啊"},{"start":18348.635,"end":18348.675,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":18368.538,"end":18375.067,"text":"敢做不敢當連續三次不復而安不復而安不復而安敢做不敢當連續三次"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}