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委員名單號等23人提出質詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟等"},{"start":1933.402,"end":1934.423,"text":"請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1950.776,"end":1965.105,"text":"2014年3月17日星期四報告事項邀請國家發展委員會主任委員農業部部長內政部首長財政部首長行政院主席總署首長進行農村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1966.977,"end":1994.29,"text":"國家發展委員會副主任委員彭麗佩及農業部政務次長胡宗一報告後委員陳廷飛等16人提出質詢經由國家發展委員會副主任委員彭麗佩等及其答覆決定1.登記發言委員除不在場者外區域基於發言完畢詢答結束2.委員林黛嬅、邱盈瑩及一代會員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內書面答覆並赴資本會上會宣布完畢"},{"start":1999.307,"end":2010.997,"text":"繼續宣讀報告事項邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就二零二五年防洪抗旱計劃進行報告並備諮詢宣布案比請經濟部賴建信次長報告"},{"start":2028.635,"end":2045.991,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好經濟部應邀自委員會進行2025年黃紅抗旱計畫專案報告自感榮幸請提出報告如下 敬請各位委員不吝指導首先就黃汛抗旱的準備情形"},{"start":2047.256,"end":2071.693,"text":"首先報告防汛整備部分 去年歷次的颱風經濟部以最快的速度來完成緊急搶休搶險的工作也盤點了各縣市急要治水的這個工作 核定相關的補助包括工程以及應急措施原則上採用一次核定分年執行的方式來推動"},{"start":2073.024,"end":2085.41,"text":"此外也移緩積極投入10億元的經費辦理巴掌溪、老榮溪等等的復建工作所有的復建工程會在今年4月底汛期開始前達到保護的標準"},{"start":2088.018,"end":2117.435,"text":"在治理工程趕辦的同時水利署也同步的進行河川平井段的輸進工作以巴掌溪為例原本在今年訓期前希望完成輸進300萬立方公尺的目標到目前為止我們的輸進的目標已經達到了338萬立方公尺超過原定的目標除此之外經濟部也跟地方政府合作各項防汛準備的工作包括"},{"start":2118.53,"end":2131.799,"text":"水利建造務 抽水站 水門 抽水機各項盤點檢查複查的一個工作 此外加強通聯及水庫廣播的測試在下個月"},{"start":2132.721,"end":2152.979,"text":"並分北中南東四個分區跟各地方政府召開黃訊準備的座談會進一步檢討全台黃訊準備措施是否需要加強之處除此之外台電公司及台水公司也落實了事前防範事後補救"},{"start":2154.178,"end":2168.781,"text":"予不强险人力机具并机动调配加强水电供应的韧性在抗旱准备的部分目前全国水库主要蓄水率都达到五成以上甚至到满库之多"},{"start":2169.562,"end":2183.968,"text":"各水庫、灌區已經進入到整田的作業並進入本田期經濟部將持續跟農業部持續合作在不影響農民耕作的情況下充分利用水資源"},{"start":2185.523,"end":2209.417,"text":"那除此之外依照交通部中央氣象署的預測未來4月到5月的預報降雨的情況是正常偏少的狀況那接下來的梅雨更是未來水情的關鍵所以經濟部將每日監控全國水情的變化零化活化這個區域的調度的一個作為至於在氣候變遷"},{"start":2210.731,"end":2226.838,"text":"在形式之下的因應對策分為三點報告第一個是流域的整體規劃包括系統性的治水首先跟委員會報告歷年的治水已經有成效經濟部將持續的辦理歷年的治水工作"},{"start":2228.154,"end":2254.968,"text":"以及前三計畫的推動之下已經擴大了全國的耐災韌性以高雄為例去年凱敏颱風單日最大的降雨量達到1400毫米已經超越98年莫納克的颱風但是淹水的範圍比莫納克的時候減少5000公頃顯示過去的治水已經展現了成效那未來經濟部將持續的推動中央管區域"},{"start":2255.828,"end":2280.166,"text":"地方管排水的保護工作對於上游的清疏的工作是經濟部非常重視的經濟部也爭取到行政院的支持對老榮溪防塞任性的工作辦理老榮溪上游的清疏確保上游桃園寶萊地區交通部落農業及溫泉產業的發展的安全至於"},{"start":2281.294,"end":2304.896,"text":"未來的流域的系統性治理我們分為五大策略第一個策略是進行整體的規劃治理加速全流域的整治提升縣市管河川及排水的整治率第二是提升土地的沉洪能力導入進流分攤出流管制在地滋洪措施由土地跟河道共同承擔洪水"},{"start":2306.411,"end":2332.271,"text":"第三是減少淹水入家門的機會增設第二道防線村落的防護提升區域的防洪能力第四是加速退水我們會因地制宜採用非對稱的治理在沿海地區加大抽排提升低窪地區的退水能力最後是在防災應變的部分我們會持續的推動社區自主防災科技"},{"start":2332.872,"end":2342.374,"text":"智慧防灾等非工程措施强化灾害预警及疏散测灵至于在推动水资源建设的部分"},{"start":2343.632,"end":2362.085,"text":"如何強化供水韌性因應氣候變遷經濟部透過開源節流調度備援措施到113年底總共增加每日237萬噸的水源相當於全國22%的公共用水目前全台"},{"start":2363.061,"end":2382.363,"text":"全國各地包括六大區域發展地區供水都相當的穩定那未來我們會採用三項策略持續的精緻的操作水庫來確保水資源的儲存此外完善西部地區供水廊道也就是珍珠串的計畫"},{"start":2383.844,"end":2409.936,"text":"經濟部目前正加速趕辦珍珠川的計畫那先前已經完成了版二水源聯合調度的管線都在近年發揮救漢的成果113年曾文跟南化的聯通管已經完成並通水增加水源調度備援的能力達到每日80萬噸而且透過雙向的聯通會發揮1加1大於2的功能"},{"start":2411.216,"end":2413.192,"text":"此外我們會強化備援措施"},{"start":2414.347,"end":2441.835,"text":"擴大科技灶水提升供水的韌性政府已經加強了浮流水跟抗旱水等備援的供水設施目前新竹、猶羅溪、台中、大安溪以及彰化、烏溪及高雄的老榮溪的浮流水都已經在趕辦之中預計在115年前可以完成可再增加每日29萬噸的備援水源此外政府也擴大推動再生水"},{"start":2442.415,"end":2467.542,"text":"海淡水等科技造水也核定了全国总共16案再生水开发计划其中6案已经完成10案持续的推动中除此之外在新竹的海水淡化厂116年为产水的目标台南的海水淡化厂以117年为产水的目标嘉义跟高雄的海淡厂预计今年提报"},{"start":2468.317,"end":2480.174,"text":"進入到環評的審查 未來希望海淡水直接併入自來水的系統聯合運用可以穩定枯水期的供水最後跟委員會報告"},{"start":2481.542,"end":2501.91,"text":"行政院正緊鑼密鼓的推動水域流域永續推動小組整合部會跟地方的資源行政院已經成立了水域流域永續推動小組的工作並在113年11月25號頒布行政院水域流域永續推動小組設置要點"},{"start":2503.331,"end":2528.243,"text":"本小組分為四個功能分組包括水土林保育分組由農業部主政治水及供水分組由經濟部主政河川水環境分組由環境部主政國土調適分組由內政部主政未來將以流域整體性的考量以國家治理的角度透過行政治理及流域空間資訊整合"},{"start":2529.932,"end":2552.135,"text":"定定治理策略優先次序及經費分配以達成有水無災用水有度水清與有的永續目標最後跟委員會報告經濟部將落實卓院長指示的新治水、新供水、降漏水三大目標確保資源的值跟量平衡的利用"},{"start":2553.12,"end":2568.113,"text":"台灣過去曾經遭遇過嚴重的水災也遭遇過滿年大旱在政府推動多項的建設之下感謝大院的支持讓我們黃紅抗旱的韌性大幅的提升未來經濟部"},{"start":2569.634,"end":2591.034,"text":"後續將透過行政院水及流域永續推動小組工作整合各部會的資源以及民間的力量以行政治理的方式進行系統性的治水共同朝永續變景邁進以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請農業部的黃昭清次長報告"},{"start":2601.901,"end":2620.925,"text":"主席各位委員今天奉邀出席大院第11屆第三會期的經濟委員會報告2025年防寒抗旱的計畫以下僅就相關議題進行報告敬請委員不吝指教那首先報告當行的農業水情近年本部透過增設蓄水空間"},{"start":2621.565,"end":2643.993,"text":"新建调度设施以及改善老旧运路然后抗汗水井开发多元水源建置智慧调控系统等那可调度的水量已经显著的提升目前农业水库 皮塘以及灌溉相关的这个蓄水设施储水量均高于10年的同期平均蓄水量而且河川流量正常"},{"start":2644.853,"end":2666.452,"text":"依目前水庫河川流量以及水文水理的這個條件評估114年上半年各式作物均能夠正常灌溉正是未來降雨量不如預期本部也將透過跨系統調度實施輪灌以及啟用抗旱水井運用多元水源等措施亦可提供農民灌溉的服務面對"},{"start":2668.683,"end":2685.532,"text":"全球的這個極端氣候平壤本部已讓台灣農業成為永續韌性的產業讓農民成為高度專業的職業為施政目標積極打造兼顧智慧韌性永續安心的農業完善韌性基礎建設導入新創新AI技術"},{"start":2686.492,"end":2703.127,"text":"輔助減災作為及災後復原強化農業水災、旱災預防及因應措施因此緊究本部對於防洪、抗旱的各項措施依序說明在防洪措施方面因為氣候變遷所導致之水災風險"},{"start":2704.668,"end":2722.554,"text":"有賴於森林永續經營剝地整體性的治山防災強化農業水庫清淤農田水利設施巡檢以及養殖環境維護等改善的措施就各項防洪措施辦理情形如下的說明第一個推動森林永續的經營發揮水源涵養"},{"start":2724.315,"end":2741.764,"text":"以及土砂焊池的功能使森林恢復保水跟防砂的本能發揮到防災森林的目標113年度已經執行了崩塌處理電機約有68.42公頃抑制土砂下一輛約263.33萬立方公尺"},{"start":2745.366,"end":2768.074,"text":"預計今年度將持續執行處理崩塌面積85公頃抑制土砂下一輛約289萬立方公尺此外針對波地的整體性治傷防災以及大規模崩塌減災的這個部分本部農村水保署積極協助地方政府落實土石流防災整備工作培訓防災專員"},{"start":2769.983,"end":2787.749,"text":"精進自主防災社區管理以及提升自主防災的能力所以根據重點災害復健區域已經辦理了79處的相關儀器的檢測另外114年度預計將完成土砂災害防治350處崩塌地處理20處抑制土砂630萬立方公尺"},{"start":2794.972,"end":2810.689,"text":"以及野溪清疏240萬立方公尺針對全國52處重點災害復健區域進行列管跟持續的追蹤管理有關於強化農業水庫清淤增加滯洪空間本部農水署"},{"start":2812.03,"end":2818.632,"text":"為了確保農業蓄水設施正常的操作以及減少淤積積極辦理農業水庫經常性的清淤工作113年總清淤量已經達到82萬餘立方公尺持續提升蓄水量達到362萬立方公尺"},{"start":2831.96,"end":2857.036,"text":"第四項工作是辦理農田水利設施的巡檢確保其防洪的功能為了維持農田水利設施正常運作針對水閘門灌溉排取以及皮塘等措施分別由本部農田水利署以及所屬的各管理處以及各地工作站辦理三級農田水利構造物的檢查以確保灌溉排取得益於災害期間能夠順利的防洪"},{"start":2858.274,"end":2876.584,"text":"第五項有關於改善養殖區域生產環境輔導漁民來防洪準備的部分由本部的漁業署補助各縣市勝普辦理排水改善以及徵購移動式抽水機等設備減緩在汛期暴雨期間洪災易淹的面積縮短地窪地區淹水的時間減輕漁業的災害同時逐步訓練漁民辦理養殖區防災準備工作在颱風期間聯繫有關單位"},{"start":2886.75,"end":2900.71,"text":"開啟閉水門以及操作抽水溪及時減輕颱風的損失另外就抗旱措施方面台灣因為山勢陡峭河川湍急水資源不易蓄存"},{"start":2901.417,"end":2917.99,"text":"再加上降雨空間時空不均造成風水期跟枯水期會有相當明顯的差異因此農業用水會直接受到衝擊支救農業部就供水韌性實施的各項措施說明如下"},{"start":2918.57,"end":2939.264,"text":"第一個辦理浚路的更新改善減少疏漏水系統性的來更新我們的浚路以健全農田水利設施的功能113年已完成改善渠道總共有146公里有效減少灌溉用水疏漏水達到了1022萬立方公尺114年預計完成改善渠道251公里提高水資源運用量達1757萬立方公尺"},{"start":2948.83,"end":2977.75,"text":"另外增設調序設施提升調度能量在辦理重要幹蓋系統的渠道設施工程的時候我們也會一併考量在系地新增調序的設施目前已經增加了57萬立方公尺的調序空間另外在濁幹線跟嘉南淡郡的北幹線串接工程預計也會在今年完工結合跨系統的調度可有效提供農業水資源的韌性"},{"start":2978.77,"end":2999.481,"text":"第三開發多水源增加灌溉可調度的水源依照各灌區不同的特性錯開整田期分區輪貫小區調控以及取用河川水溪流水回歸水利用精準配水以及夜間調水等各項措施每年增加調度的能量約達8650萬立方公尺那另外113年以"},{"start":3004.942,"end":3014.907,"text":"著涉更新抗旱水井總共有121口114年預計再新增179口有效解決旱石灌水的供水壓力"},{"start":3016.598,"end":3035.906,"text":"第四在布置智慧灌溉推動農業灌溉的精準化我們將持續導入新興的科技推動灌溉用水智慧管理逐步達到精準灌溉的目標113年已經興建及改善了423處的水文監測以及智慧砸控等設施114年預計可再完成450處"},{"start":3038.707,"end":3065.284,"text":"全國智慧灌溉的相關設備將會累積到2936處大幅提升灌溉用水調度以及防災應變的能力近年因全球軟化、旱撈交替頻繁而且越區極端影響農產品的生產環境也對全國農田水利設施造成嚴重的威脅為了有效控制並減少災害損失本部落實訓期前整備作業及訓期間的應變措施"},{"start":3067.225,"end":3089.664,"text":"同時依災害防救規定本部配合水災及旱災的中央災害防救就業業務主管機關經濟部來辦理水旱災之災害系統性的預防、整備、應變以及復原的工作此外本部將跟續推動如上所報告的各項防洪抗旱的相關措施以降低氣候變遷對農漁業所帶來相關的衝擊與風險以上報告請各位委員不吝賜教"},{"start":3096.408,"end":3121.258,"text":"好谢谢我们内政部跟国家科学及技术委员会的书面报告就请委员自行参阅并刊登公报现在进行询答委员询答前主席原力作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员6分钟必要时得延长2分钟非本会委员5分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记首先请第一位邱毅英委员发言"},{"start":3129.669,"end":3157.069,"text":"謝謝主席我先請一下經濟部次長賴次長次長好我想這個是應該是您第一次以經濟部次長的身份來備詢過去在這邊你大概都是以水利署署長的這樣的一個身份所以您對於這個抗旱防洪如何治水"},{"start":3158.189,"end":3173.776,"text":"我相信你應該有非常多的經驗次長您剛剛的報告其實開宗明義就提到了高雄高雄在去年的凱米颱風的時候單日最高降雨量是超過1400毫米對不對"},{"start":3176.637,"end":3188.471,"text":"這已經遠超過98年的莫拉克風災但是呢 當時大家就在討論說到底高雄這麼多年來做了這一些滯洪池有沒有效有一批網友認為這個滯洪池是沒有效的"},{"start":3192.495,"end":3220.628,"text":"但是在我們在地的感覺跟你們現在的這個報告你的報告裡面很清楚講說淹水範圍比起莫拉克少了大概五千公頃那我們看了一下過去的這十幾二十年來所有台灣的這一些治水計畫把高雄跟北北基拿起來相比赫然我們會覺得說高雄其實很可憐"},{"start":3221.752,"end":3246.97,"text":"如果不是從2006年開始我們有所謂的這些治水計畫特別預算的挹注治洪池的設立我想高雄的淹水應該會比過往更嚴重現在的這種極端氣候你看今天都已經三月底了過去這個時候應該是熱到快昏倒了可是現在台北的溫度這麼低"},{"start":3248.57,"end":3274.946,"text":"次長我想請教一下您覺得像這樣的一個治水計畫到底有沒有效那這樣的治水計畫比如說在高雄我們其實還有很多地方我們的防洪標準是遠低於20年的25年的那有沒有去盤點這一些地區那有沒有什麼新的新興計畫或者是要趕快加速來進行的 有沒有是"},{"start":3276.224,"end":3291.043,"text":"首先跟委員說明過去的治水工作確實產生很大的效果以剛剛委員這張投影片為例在北北基的淡水河的流域民國71年開始投入超過1600億元的預算但是"},{"start":3294.778,"end":3321.695,"text":"相较之下我们其他的流域地区包括中南部重大的刚刚委员所说的高雄地区我们只有在民国94年开始政府才用集中的力量用特别预算来编列希望来补助地方政府在过往94年之前一年差不多是30亿94年之前大概都是只有坐北北机南部很少被看见我们看到高雄25个制红尺"},{"start":3322.515,"end":3342.796,"text":"不管是在楷米颱風或是在栗翅的颱風都發揮很大的效果那我們也不敢想像說整個城市若是沒有製紅池缺少了土地的成紅這個情況會如何所以近年來我們就積極的推動也是在委員的協助之下我們在美濃透過"},{"start":3344.212,"end":3360.069,"text":"工程的滯洪池還有包括農地的滯洪這個概念在凱敏颱風之後我們看到了很多的縣市政府都是希望引用高雄美農在地滯洪的經驗來引用到他的地方市長你講到這個我們就來先來看就繼續來探討我覺得"},{"start":3365.094,"end":3388.228,"text":"抗旱跟防洪 治洪其實它有一點算是一體的啦您剛講到美濃的在地治洪其實它在過去幾次的颱風雨災的時候都發揮了相當的程度的效果去年前年這個水利署在老農溪有一個所謂的防災韌性計畫你們在老農溪的這個中下游這邊"},{"start":3390.29,"end":3397.001,"text":"中游啦 就靠近這個新威大橋這裡你們把它峻深挖了一個很大的"},{"start":3398.343,"end":3420.796,"text":"像類似像滯洪池那當然意外的造成一個很漂亮的景觀那這個其實對你們來說你們其實是把水除下來然後呢也補充了我們的地下水所以這兩年在枯旱期的時候美濃地區已經沒有再喊說啊這個缺水啦沒有水這個計畫我覺得非常的好"},{"start":3421.696,"end":3433.672,"text":"可是很顯然的看起來因為預算總預算被砍了之後我看我跟那個署長應該是兩個禮拜前我們去現場看過嘛這個未來算是你們的新興計畫總預算被砍了之後這還能做嗎"},{"start":3438.639,"end":3463.101,"text":"這麼優秀這麼好的一個計畫單單老農溪的防災任性計畫未來還能做嗎我不知道這個我要請教第二個前瞻的治水計畫預算也還沒有審查過所以您剛剛講的高雄的這一些工程我剛剛問你的高雄未來還有沒有其他的工程有很多治理工程就有18件應急工程有49件"},{"start":3464.542,"end":3485.827,"text":"可是呢 這一些計畫 這一些工程因為前瞻的治水計畫預算沒過所以這一些工程還橫在那裡那你們給本席的備註裡面有寫說各同意案件需與治理計畫相符114年所需的經費如果預算奉准後再辦理"},{"start":3486.727,"end":3503.117,"text":"如果預算沒有準的話請各縣市政府自籌經費辦理或於後續計畫提列換句話說現在預算沒過雖然你們已經把工程核定了但是未來我們不知道錢在哪裡工程還能不能做得下去"},{"start":3503.997,"end":3529.231,"text":"所以所謂的防災任性抗旱防洪完全都要取決於錢啊錢在哪裡 昨天這個是我去年十月份到仁武鳥松地區的十九灣排水去年凱米颱風仁武淹得很嚴重所以市政府水利局認為十九灣的排水原來的滯洪量不足所以我們要把它擴大量呢這個案子也在你們核定的"},{"start":3529.551,"end":3551.423,"text":"案件裡面了可是現在沒錢不知道什麼時候能做昨天我跟陳其邁市長到美濃湖去看排水這個已經工程已經做了65%了但是我們還有另外一期的工程大概將近840公尺的這個美濃湖的這個排水工程合訂了但是我不知道現在錢在哪裡能不能做什麼時候可以做市長可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":3559.486,"end":3578.86,"text":"跟委員說明前瞻第五期的預算我們經過立法院聯席會議委員會審議通過大概經濟部的部分編了101億元我們希望這個預算早日通過剛剛委員所說的各縣市分配在前瞻五期的工程就可以很快速的開展"},{"start":3579.58,"end":3592.171,"text":"那當然現在預算還沒有通過的情況之下我們會利用前期的預算或是一些結餘的部分來做相關的這個融資不過基本上因為4月底"},{"start":3593.305,"end":3618.003,"text":"就是我們訓期 準備要開始了嘛結束的時候 是啊 五月一號就訓期開始了我們希望這個預算早日的通過那另外老榮溪的這個計畫 因為他是屬於新興計畫那也需要總預算的 總預算被砍了新興計畫就完全不能做啦所以我就很擔心啊 我們所謂的這些防災任性到底要怎麼防災 要怎麼做任性"},{"start":3619.588,"end":3640.028,"text":"政府空有這麼多的想法跟計畫可是沒錢沒錢你什麼都做不了啊沒錢你什麼樣的災都防不了啊沒錢你怎麼樣來保護人民的生命財產的安全啊這是我們最擔憂的地方啊預算可以砍 但是不能亂砍啊"},{"start":3642.332,"end":3666.948,"text":"不能沒有理性的亂砍 你砍到這樣子我們今天主席 我很高興主席今天排了一個這樣的議程可是你可以凸顯到我單單現在只有講我高雄的部分我選區的部分 就這麼多的工程了你更何況其他的委員 其他的區域中部的山區要不要北部要不要 雖然北部已經拿了很多錢了"},{"start":3668.291,"end":3692.87,"text":"大家各自回到區域裡頭 你面臨到淹水的問題的時候你面臨到治水的問題的時候都需要錢啊這些計畫不是憑空掉下來的 錢也不是憑空掉下來啊我其實我本來還有想要問那個農業部喔就你們的那個灌溉的部分啊來 那個次長 主席可以再給我一分鐘齁次長您剛剛的那個報告裡面啊 你們農業部有一些"},{"start":3694.841,"end":3723.824,"text":"你講的這個所謂的灌溉系統你有增加了這麼多處的智慧灌溉增加了這麼多的抗旱水井但是你沒有告訴我們你的區域分布在哪些地方基本上我們就是要提高這個它的農業的韌性所以對於缺水的地方我們特別會來加強所以基本上這些多水源以及這個增加抗旱的這些水源絕大部分都是集中在這個中南部的這些地區"},{"start":3724.264,"end":3751.407,"text":"集中在中南部來那個蔡署長我是不是能夠請您給我一份比較完整的比如說你們的這些智慧灌溉系統跟抗旱水井的這些建設大概是在哪一些縣市哪一些區域那你們的這個灌溉溝渠你們的灌溉溝渠能不能跟水利的這個所謂的排水系統把它做一個適度的連結"},{"start":3752.788,"end":3769.902,"text":"有時候大水一來可以透過你們的灌溉溝渠讓這個水也能夠順利的導流出去我覺得這個也是一個防災的概念過去賴建信在當署長的時候也推過這樣的一個想法有沒有可能大家再去做一些整合"},{"start":3770.852,"end":3794.531,"text":"報告委員沒有問題首先資料部分大概我們的康安水井這幾年都集中在高屏還有雲嘉南地區那第二個部分就是事實上我們的進入系統也包含一部分的這個農田排水所以農田排水跟這個區域排水還有相關市域排水其實都有互相的我知道你們有包含但我講的是說比較易淹水地區的這些排水能不能讓他更緊密的去結合好不好我們持續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":3796.132,"end":3811.099,"text":"好 謝謝 再請下一位委員詢答前 我們先進行確認議事錄 那上一次會議議事錄請問有無錯誤沒有 好 議事錄確定 現在請林旦化委員做詢答有請次長 賴次長"},{"start":3828.145,"end":3848.151,"text":"市长本席关心我们极端气候所带来的强降雨它除了淹水的问题还有电力溃损的问题所以在极端气候即使在去年2024年10月一个枯水期当中却来了三个台风"},{"start":3848.951,"end":3862.506,"text":"那這個當然地表吸水量有限 土壤的含水量有限大量的降雨當然由山區匯流就到了平原 所以呢水利設施面臨的挑戰當然我們就有淹水了好那對於這個"},{"start":3864.508,"end":3883.195,"text":"南部這邊的降雨時空其實分布是不均的第二個 豐沛降雨量無法確保我高雄穩定的供水第三個 缺水問題成為經濟產業發展的隱憂第四個 在短時間強降雨造成的嚴重水患當然本席有一些具體的主張"},{"start":3884.075,"end":3903.831,"text":"那在南部地区的降雨的时空分布不均这两张图很明确一个是我们台湾的平均的雨量一个是我南部的平均雨量那在这样的枯水期当中的11 12到4月5到10月当中很明显就是集中在一个7月"},{"start":3905.072,"end":3920.573,"text":"那但是呢枯水期的那個量啊幾乎是這個風水期跟枯水期的量其實是沒有辦法平衡的那這豐沛降雨呢也沒有辦法這個確保高雄的穩定供水我大高雄並沒有大型可用的儲水水庫"},{"start":3921.474,"end":3944.154,"text":"所以自來水就來自三個 高頻驗 浮流水跟地下水好 那這個台灣地區啊 這個山高水短所以呢 這個過去十年 高雄地區平均的年降達到2020的公里喔但是呢 因為沒有大型水庫 所以呢 旭峰季枯"},{"start":3944.654,"end":3967.085,"text":"的功能也就沒有那所以呢缺水問題反而成為我經濟產業發展的隱憂那高雄地區我們缺乏蓄水能量無法有效的調節水資源所以呢在年度降雨量低於平均的時候很容易引發缺水的危機對於民生產業衝擊是很大的好本期關心的是高雄的S郎帶"},{"start":3968.105,"end":3977.25,"text":"在S浪帶當中高雄地區的經濟命脈台積電也準備進行擴廠那光是一個3奈米廠一天就要7.5萬噸一個2奈米廠我只講一個2奈米廠他就一天要10萬噸水"},{"start":3985.075,"end":4006.176,"text":"但是我高雄每日的供水當然這個數字可能需要調整一下他在民生用水的量體可以120幾噸可以高到130幾萬噸每天工業用水大概每天可以到20幾萬噸最高可以到40萬噸我現在講的這個數字是高雄現在已經合理的最大量體"},{"start":4006.957,"end":4024.515,"text":"所以如果我的不管是這個相關的S廊帶這邊所有的企業進駐或其他這個產業的進駐即使是中小型大量的進駐之下高雄的缺水的問題其實是可以已經是可以預估的當然我們就要防範嘛"},{"start":4025.896,"end":4030.981,"text":"好所以呢包括我要講到電力這個強降雨呢既然會帶來水患又會破壞電力設施那高雄又幅員廣大城鄉落差很大所以呢從過去的那三個颱風很明顯的只要這個強降雨來之後我很多地方是變成電力孤島的"},{"start":4046.596,"end":4073.463,"text":"所以我在這邊具體要求兩項第一個請經濟部盤點我高雄半導體S廊帶或新建工業區的用水需求提出由廠商自建或政府協助建立的再生水廠或者海水氮化廠來供這些廠區使用避免新增的產業進駐排擠高雄市現有的工業或者跟民生用水"},{"start":4073.763,"end":4095.22,"text":"因為有新廠我的人員會進駐那相關人員來當然我的民生用水量也會增加所以我們不希望產業所帶來的經濟榮景以及這個人口的增加他反而排擠到我現有的這個工業民生的用水量另外一個我要請你們盤點全高雄地區的微電網儲能系統"},{"start":4096.381,"end":4125.391,"text":"你們到底建制的如何過去三個颱風非常的慘烈那包括我自己的選區大寮的海堤的地方沿著海堤的地方這個理論上是不太可能做這個電網地下化而是以微電網的方式來建制那到底計畫在哪裡所以呢避免這個水災的時候形成電力孤島所以針對水跟電請你提供相關的這個規劃那是不是請回應一下"},{"start":4126.972,"end":4153.981,"text":"首先非常佩服委員對於水跟電的指教目前我們的工作大概都朝著委員所提的方向 委員兩個具體主張我們這些資料我們一個禮拜內會送給你 但是我在這邊容我再用大家一點時間說明一下你提出來的一個事項我們辦理的情形 第一個風枯不均這個不但是高雄如此 我們依照國科會"},{"start":4155.59,"end":4178.568,"text":"未来的事件我们的分析全国大概这个情况都不例外没有一处不例外所以我们积极的来推动西部蓝带的珍珠串计划就是要来解决以高雄为例在去年113年我们把真文水库跟南化水库这个水源串通起来就可以解决刚刚委员所说的高雄"},{"start":4179.594,"end":4196.989,"text":"有水沒有庫的情況因為過多的水就會往北送到南化水庫跟曾文水庫去存下來所以委員可以看到目前南化水庫跟曾文水庫的水量都我知道你很努力的在這個豐庫當中的調解那本席講的是我已經很預測我未來產業進駐"},{"start":4198.971,"end":4216.821,"text":"的一個大量用水以及在這個極端氣候下所形成的強降雨而造成的電力孤島的問題所以你剛才解釋我接受那我也肯定你們的努力但是我對於新增的用水的量體那你們要整個大高雄盤點出來您說的一個月內是嗎"},{"start":4218.563,"end":4239.882,"text":"好 一個月內 這個電力的部分或新建的工業區或新建的工業區像高雄有百埔工業區啊 它是針對中小企業啊複合型的一個工業區啊 也是經濟部開發的啊那像那個東西你也知道 為什麼我還提到政府你不是每個人都台積電可以自建啊那如果那個園區來講 在我現有不排擠現有的"},{"start":4242.825,"end":4263.915,"text":"工業民生用水之後可是有新建的這些工業區那你是不是要自己投入要協助他們用公立的用我們公家地上去做再生水場對新建的工業區要做啊是 高雄目前就是有全國最多的再生水我們不希望這些高科技的用水如委員所說排擠到既有民生的用水"},{"start":4264.315,"end":4281.682,"text":"所以我們未來在高雄我們會再有兩個計畫大概是楠梓跟橋頭攀點出來好不好再給我好不好因為你的增加的量跟你現在的供給量需求量跟供給量是不是能夠對應得上針對微電網的部分是請台電總經理稍微回覆一下還是次長你要回覆"},{"start":4282.402,"end":4301.515,"text":"基本上電網強韌計畫這個部分其實是我們目前盡力在做的事情那至於說孤島的地方這個也是現在台電公司希望說我要的是全高雄你們要規劃微電網的儲能系統你們要給我一個規劃那要不要總經理林可"},{"start":4305.477,"end":4325.473,"text":"第一個針對高雄整個區域包括意志在的地區是不是容我們經濟部來盤點一下跟台電公司確認一下再送資料給你因為我不講偏鄉的地方因為不是偏鄉都會整回電力孤島如果我的選區林園林園林園區那幾乎就七天"},{"start":4326.594,"end":4348.155,"text":"這整個三個颱風來之後 七天斷電 但是我要肯定台電是很積極的搶修我沒有任何苛責之意 但是對我民怨沸騰七天沒有電 民生除了實在是已經受不了之外 我的所有的魚苗我們的高雄黑的喜宅那個園區 提供了全台灣六成的魚苗"},{"start":4349.036,"end":4363.629,"text":"全部通通打趴全部所以那個所帶來的產業所以你一個微電網的整個高雄市的規劃不是只有三區連高雄市區內都可能都你們要去評估啊好不好好謝謝好一個月內這兩個有關這個我們一個月內提供給委員謝謝好謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"},{"start":4382.278,"end":4385.881,"text":"謝謝我們請次長賴次長委員好次長上一次質詢的時候是署長一下子才這兩三個禮拜之間就變成次長了那第一個問題又是您最在行的"},{"start":4411.638,"end":4426.591,"text":"因為從抗旱也好或是水利工程也好對你來講這是你最專業的也是一路來從基層一直上來可是專業歸專業沒錢也沒辦法辦事對不對市長這是很敏感的今天"},{"start":4433.311,"end":4458.895,"text":"我們一直在這段時間看到全國各地慢慢有防洪抗害的能力是因為我們除了本體預算公務預算提升第二個部分我們也有前瞻計畫把整個資源完全投入我們的防洪跟抗害才有辦法讓大家感覺到"},{"start":4460.222,"end":4486.941,"text":"整個國家慢慢的有防洪 抗旱的能力 是不是尤其面對極端氣候如果沒有我們第一時間從過去的八八一路來到前瞻很難因為我們來自地方 我們都知道光一個水利工程那不是簡單一千萬 兩千萬做得起來"},{"start":4488.871,"end":4514.615,"text":"大家要做一招抽水瓶 那就要咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕還有制紅池我相信這就是在整個我們防洪很重要的關鍵再加上要抗旱 因為極端氣候有時候就要惹火了很多火力都沒了 有時候一滴火就沒了"},{"start":4516.246,"end":4544.514,"text":"所以你必須我們要有萬全的準備去幫忙人民如何去防洪如何去抗旱因為政府要作為人民最好的支撐者才能夠讓他們面對這個極端的氣候尤其極端的氣候所造成的都是人民財產安全的損失"},{"start":4546.417,"end":4563.253,"text":"這是不容有任何折扣的所以我要先問我們看到去年的楷米還有整個颱風不斷的肆虐造成台南農牧漁業損失慘重"},{"start":4565.822,"end":4594.184,"text":"甚至很多的低窪地區都是淹水超過好多個禮拜都沒有退當下我們去會刊了我們也過了很多的相關計畫可是我們要問的從去年到今年汛期又要到了都處理好了嗎都準備好了嗎 市長"},{"start":4596.972,"end":4617.809,"text":"謝謝委員的指導 治水的工作除了委員之外 所有經濟委員會的各位委員都非常的重視 非常感謝委員會過去代包括今年度的預算都非常的支持剛剛委員所提出的前瞻計畫也是透過聯席會跟財政委員會聯席會現在已經通過了 我們希望加速了"},{"start":4618.93,"end":4646.568,"text":"來通過這個預算讓所有的工作能趕快開展但是針對於治水的工作特別是黃汛跟各位報告我們沒有最好但是只有更好到目前為止我們除了工程方法導入之外我們積極的跟縣市來合作比如說我也很關心的巴掌溪及水溪的疏浚包括曾文溪的排水的治理因為我們現在已經把下流段慢慢治理好了我們希望說"},{"start":4647.589,"end":4674.146,"text":"比照山野溪的經驗把上游的部分因為這個土地也一直在飆漲市長你剛剛講到山野溪我也要跟你一起把它變成一個很重要的一個指標跟關鍵我想市長當時候山野溪在淹水的時候當時候蔡英文總統下台南我當時候就跟蔡總統說總統"},{"start":4677.006,"end":4701.699,"text":"當我們縣的整治關鍵在土地要一次核定署長你當時候聽很清楚嗎你當時候是署長所以蔡英文總統很清楚這個關鍵所以回來一次核定對不對署長一次核定之後我們很簡單的土地一起來做處理願意"},{"start":4704.359,"end":4729.278,"text":"來做架構的我們馬上處理所以有用看用啦所以我們今天的報告第一頁就把當時的精神放在這裡我們希望說一次核定分年實施的部分對於全國集要段的自理核酸都比照我們過去三延期的經驗來落實這樣對整個防災的能力會更好是對啊沒錯市長"},{"start":4731.039,"end":4759.274,"text":"山岩溪已經有這麼好的經驗了可是我看你後面好像並不是用這樣方向因為我當時候就跟署長拜託說署長我跟總統直接建言總統也答應了也確實我們就用一次核定所以當時候在卡關在鬼打牆的時候那些過程都沒了所以我們山岩溪可以很快的"},{"start":4760.339,"end":4778.774,"text":"而且是超乎我們原本的預估因為過去每一次都是土地一段一段土地徵收完了再來做治水的工程然後這一段完了我們再換下一段永遠就卡來卡去可是你一次核定不一樣"},{"start":4779.935,"end":4795.922,"text":"所以水利工程是要跟時間在跑的、在攪拌的跟時間在賽跑的所以我一直講像我們曾文熙排水現在終於終於終於終於做到最後段了終於喔!市長我已經讓你輪過了曾文熙排水過去的整理常態十幾年了17年"},{"start":4808.018,"end":4837.154,"text":"我當民意代表立委17年就爭取了17年最後終於做到最後段了這當中你看浪費了多少時間所以我一直在說的這事情不能算啦而且當你今天沒有做好前面淹水我們做的工程等於都無效 人民無感"},{"start":4838.689,"end":4858.806,"text":"所以我們一定在水利工程一定要做一致合定這才是最關鍵 如果在潦白水也是一扎一扎慢慢地走然後搞到所有的里長說啊你做這個要幹什麼啊你在走我也在喝水 人民無感"},{"start":4861.42,"end":4874.69,"text":"所以在整個我們所看到的現在水利工程包括我們所期待的總預算這一次我們水利署的預算也被刪減了9.63億農業部的預算被刪減了2.73億"},{"start":4882.831,"end":4909.133,"text":"這些其實都是人民急迫需要的 但被刪掉好 那前瞻呢前瞻第五期 也是在空中在背餒我們現在執行是一至四期嘛 對不對而且一至四期都在執行當中了 已經要做結尾了好 那結尾完呢就是第五期"},{"start":4910.427,"end":4939.187,"text":"像第五期 關我爭取的麻豆安南中西新營新市永康還有所有民眾設置防水閘門板的預算一億一千兩百七十四萬還有仁德區將軍區外僱傭馬沙溝崔坤新的囚罪長幫忙安平 膽固領地 運空善化"},{"start":4940.165,"end":4945.74,"text":"這都是在我們第五期第五期的市長怎麼辦第一個我們希望"},{"start":4950.612,"end":4975.597,"text":"相關包括委員會所支持的預算趕快可以順利的通過第五期經濟部大概編了101億元左右那現在在朝野協商中那如果是這個預算趕快通過的話因為第五期的預算我們已經優先的先把它盤點出來有一些都已經先行核列只不過因為配合預算法的關係所以這個部分你們去年都核列了嘛"},{"start":4976.556,"end":4998.97,"text":"就是我們看到 凱米等等 好幾個颱風進來我們早就核裂了啊都已經跟人家講說 咱們要走啊結果 無聲吊在空中在飛我們當時看了多少我再次強調安南區 新化區 嘉里 麻豆 柳營嘉里 新化 還有六甲甚至是夏營 鹽水北門 七谷"},{"start":5008.22,"end":5025.409,"text":"堅定 關田我們所看到的全部都是我們目前非常重要急迫需要的還有北區 東區 安南區仁德 雪甲白河 南溪這些都等著你們咧怎麼辦這些都等著你們咧市長"},{"start":5037.216,"end":5042.745,"text":"有什麼想法 現在倒在盡頭到尾了中午三個紅台 前瞻第五期也動不了"},{"start":5051.909,"end":5078.334,"text":"訊息又要到了 訊息快到了我們中心的期盼 立法院院會能趕快通過我們前瞻的第五期預算 因為特別預算有它的嚴謹度那公務預算的部分還有逐年不超過原核定的這個預算的額度裡面還有一些方法可以去想那特別預算的部分這些確實比較麻煩一點 但是我們也可能拜託地方政府他可以多先行電款來"},{"start":5079.154,"end":5102.532,"text":"做發包 或許有可能找到解方 但是我們中央都知道要做編啦所以中央政府已經都有點失能了啦你跟他講說他先編 他也不會編啦以前都是我們等候他然後他 電付案配合款現在你叫他先編 他就說 那你錢什麼時候要給我所以 市長"},{"start":5107.85,"end":5135.553,"text":"今天台南37區每個地方都有我們核定的計畫我們都有去現場看過37區都有但是現在面臨的是動不了所以市長這個要解決啊前瞻的第五期還有我們的總預算這沒有辦法折扣而且有些被凍結的我們希望你們趕快拿出來解凍"},{"start":5137.383,"end":5157.059,"text":"我相信我們所有的委員都不會阻擋這都是人民的小命機要救命的啦拜託大家也拜託我們的經濟部我們真的要努力而且預算這已經現實狀況了被凍在那裡我們下一步怎麼解決謝謝好謝謝委員知道好謝謝我們現在請呂玉玲委員做詢問"},{"start":5172.537,"end":5172.819,"text":"謝謝主席 請賴長"},{"start":5183.974,"end":5209.626,"text":"委員好長赤恭喜從水利署長升到我們的長赤那治水的防洪的這些業務都是我們次長的這個長項你都非常的了解也非常有經驗那剛剛特別講到這個預算的問題那法定預算是可以直接在執行的那有凍結的預算請趕快送出來我們就可以解凍"},{"start":5210.426,"end":5233.96,"text":"送出來就可以解凍只要報告清楚人民需要的我們都會解凍好不好那今天特別我們談到的就是我們這個防洪抗旱的一些準備工作那因為近年來的話我們整個氣候的變遷那個降雨型態改變了很多那最近我們看到說我們水庫的那個蓄水量雖然說還很樂觀沒有缺水"},{"start":5236.542,"end":5241.245,"text":"但前幾年這個旱災我們用水就很吃緊那尤其是前幾年的時候我們那個燈號還在這個陳燈的時候橘燈的時候但是我那個區域龍潭的這個這個後園的這個水井就連夜被偷偷的抽水去供應竹北的竹科那這個問題一再的發生那但是我們"},{"start":5264.079,"end":5282.466,"text":"雖然說我們今年的水情看起來還是不錯的但是我們還是要未以籌謀有些必要性的工作還是要來先做的那尤其是看到我們全台的這個科學園區的這個用水量一天大概是55萬噸產業園區的話是55到60萬噸的這個情形如果我請問市長如果發生缺水的時候民生農業跟產業誰會先優先來供水"},{"start":5294.4,"end":5315.586,"text":"我們基本上我們希望透過供水韌性的改善那這幾年有產生的效果對於我們桃園地區我們即便面臨到104年當時的枯旱情境的話也不會進入到分區輪流供水那為什麼呢因為我們從北部逐漸的把水往南調調到好石門"},{"start":5316.966,"end":5337.416,"text":"這邊來 這些工作都已經開始在展開之中 行政院也核定了剛剛委員所詢問到了再生水 這是一個可以報告的部分我還沒問到再生水你跳革了我現在是問你說民生農業跟我們的產業如果發生強水的情形 你會先優先供給哪一個"},{"start":5338.536,"end":5367.122,"text":"當然是以民生為主啊民生為主所以你在這邊承諾尤其是我們的水利法18條的第一項裡面也要先供給民生用水對不對我們過去一直是如此你承諾的話一定要民生用水不要再發生搶水的情形或偷偷的來抽我們的備用水井好不好因為我們農產那邊有無控備用水井那時候是抗旱緊急工程抗旱你也要以民生為優先你抽去給產業的話當地我們的用水就發生了困難"},{"start":5367.862,"end":5388.167,"text":"因為在那個供水的那個幹網裡面 農業的幹線裡面他在不需要水的時候的時間我們把不需要水我才誇獎說我們次長對我們水的治理非常了解那時候的情形就是什麼時候水關掉了那所以水沒有排到農業用水 農業用水很多的水井水是往"},{"start":5388.547,"end":5412.504,"text":"低處流我們的備沿水井水是比較深的所以這個水井是未來我們要給民生優先使用的結果你們偷抽我們的水去給住客用這個事情不要再發生好不好以民生為優先市長在這邊承諾以民生為優先好不好當然我們是以民生優先考量好那接下來我們想問的就是我現在才要問你再生水廠的事情"},{"start":5414.488,"end":5441.635,"text":"次長因為我們桃竹苗在我們卓院長有宣布行政院有宣示說要做桃竹苗的大溪谷計畫那我們為了要深化產業的實力來促進整體園區的發展那我們對水電的供應應該有相當的配套那所以特別提到這大溪谷計畫裡面本席方開來看了一下你們對於這個水電的供應配套裡面特別有提到再生水廠的推動方案"},{"start":5442.355,"end":5464.345,"text":"那經濟部有在這方面有規劃到龜山還有苗栗的再生水廠但是這只停留在預估預估的階段而已可行性評估都沒有做請問一下你這個可行性評估沒有做那未來這個發生了缺水的情況之下目前的再生水廠供應的需求若不夠怎麼辦呢現在夠嗎如果是缺水的話目前的再生水廠夠不夠"},{"start":5472.771,"end":5482.923,"text":"這個所謂缺水要看所謂的水的缺用的一個程度不過剛剛瑋瑜所提到的不管是在我們陶北的那已經有1.8萬噸的再生水場"},{"start":5485.39,"end":5501.308,"text":"那這些部分是提供給廠商因為他可能加入RE100他對所謂的環境的運用是更好的這些就是要把都評估進去都要評估進來做可行性的評估你的可行性評估都還沒有送出來你什麼時候要送出來"},{"start":5502.097,"end":5529.751,"text":"跟委員說明你的這個黃色的部分是由內政部在做推動的那至於說你左邊這張圖的藍色的部分事實上都有計畫在推行之中不管是在陶北從原來的1.8萬噸到8萬噸這個118年就可以完成就我們從內政部掌握的資料是如此的那你都評估了嗎可行性都可以再做了嗎那這個已經開始在做了所以可行性已經過了"},{"start":5532.598,"end":5536.781,"text":"這個部分已經有已經有了所以我們希望趕快來做整個大矽谷計畫的話讓我們那個產業的投資才有信心不然的話他們在擴大的情況就沒有競爭力了好不好好 我們會請內政部教授來推動那接下來本席要問一下"},{"start":5550.091,"end":5555.552,"text":"那因為這個我們的電價審議委員會已經決議了我們的電價為了顧民生然後穩定我們的物價決議不調漲了電價不調漲了但是我們擔心水價會不會調漲那因為有人在說水價可能會調漲因為那個我們卓院長特別提到說要合理性的電價要做調整那雖然"},{"start":5574.957,"end":5585.027,"text":"31年沒有調動了但是我們也必須要把這個整體的水價合理性的提出檢討報告要送出來那現在送出來了沒有"},{"start":5585.9,"end":5609.947,"text":"目前為止我沒有收到這個臺水公司所說的報告 臺水公司說今天會送過來 臺水公司還沒有送我們現在議題都排出來 還沒有送總經理說今天他公司會報出來但是水利署好像還沒有看過這個報告那基本上我們對於所謂的公用事業包括民生所需要的不管是水跟電的問題我們除了"},{"start":5613.749,"end":5630.6,"text":"讓這個國營事業他有健全的財務體質之外我們也要考慮到社會上面對物價的衝擊所以當這個報告出來我們會仔細的去檢視他在公司的治理的部分有沒有像這個台電公司從產銷人發財各方面去檢審"},{"start":5631.955,"end":5646.828,"text":"支出來減少虧損讓整個經營更有效益的方法那所有可以促進台水公司可以有健全發展的這個方案我相信水利署跟我們經濟部都會盡快送出來了"},{"start":5648.749,"end":5675.888,"text":"那因為本席會這樣子問的話就是因為在2023年在王美花部長的時候特別有做出一份報告檢討水價合理性的結構報告裡面特別有提到說要增加水費集聚來累計淨費的這個大部分的這個差價分段的這個差價目前是分成四段那未來的話你們可能會分為幾段"},{"start":5678.111,"end":5692.39,"text":"這個過去除了集聚加大集聚的部分社會有一些因為現在四段的話是50度以上50度以上但基本上我們對於台水公司所提出來的檢討報告我們不預設綠場也不用設施框架"},{"start":5693.447,"end":5710.21,"text":"那如此一來可以讓他可以客觀的去看到任何的一個改善財務結構的一個可能改善財務結構也要顧民生那現在我們看到的這四段這個四個段51度以上的這部分大概都是民生在用電"},{"start":5711.011,"end":5716.494,"text":"那現在你們也有徵收這個耗水費嘛耗水費是單月的話大用戶的話超過9000度的話你們就耗水費每度增加3塊錢9000度是大用戶應該都是產業啦中小業還沒有啦"},{"start":5727.759,"end":5755.297,"text":"那未來我們自來水公司如果送出這個整個檢討報告表之後的話我們希望說你們可以在集聚裡面做一個調整做一個調整來讓保一定不要影響到民生用水的權利的範圍內才做調整那如果說你要增加的部分這個集聚的部分增加集聚的話也不要都沒有先跟我們產業溝通讓產業溝通之後都有所準備才不會影響他們整個作業這樣好不好"},{"start":5755.677,"end":5756.077,"text":"主席我想請賴次長賴次長"},{"start":5789.093,"end":5813.585,"text":"委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力"},{"start":5814.385,"end":5829.897,"text":"為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長剛剛呂毅林委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙漲議題"},{"start":5832.759,"end":5841.889,"text":"那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢"},{"start":5853.28,"end":5877.992,"text":"首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對於我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為"},{"start":5883.016,"end":5903.755,"text":"11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構"},{"start":5906.397,"end":5917.102,"text":"是會更好基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整了能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向台水的部分"},{"start":5935.871,"end":5965.049,"text":"大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調伏這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理"},{"start":5965.609,"end":5989.098,"text":"所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了"},{"start":5989.718,"end":6010.138,"text":"因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來在"},{"start":6010.737,"end":6030.123,"text":"整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量好這一點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢"},{"start":6033.772,"end":6051.347,"text":"基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本"},{"start":6051.707,"end":6063.394,"text":"那必須要有一個透明的時程 完整的評估 充分的說明那最重要的是 到目前為止 台水的漏水率還在11-12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水喔那所以與其長教 本席建議 不如先補漏洞否則呢 民眾也會覺得說 解水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人啊"},{"start":6078.784,"end":6097.064,"text":"臺水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏"},{"start":6098.075,"end":6117.13,"text":"是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個10%以下的這個目標目標是10%以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到10%"},{"start":6122.915,"end":6141.988,"text":"可不可以沒有委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣它當它改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話它每投資一塊錢它改善的這個效果慢慢就會就會進入到高原期趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年"},{"start":6144.329,"end":6156.174,"text":"提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":6166.769,"end":6193.481,"text":"那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過各國不夠不夠應該再提提高一點撥補台電就已經4年3000億了今年還想要再1000億明年還想要1000億台電一個人就花了5000億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給1000億太少了吧"},{"start":6194.697,"end":6217.499,"text":"所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果"},{"start":6219.221,"end":6227.828,"text":"才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生"},{"start":6240.299,"end":6258.017,"text":"那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢地層財政極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持"},{"start":6264.343,"end":6282.615,"text":"所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費"},{"start":6283.689,"end":6297.881,"text":"是尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是"},{"start":6302.104,"end":6330.956,"text":"飆非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區然後他的通洪"},{"start":6331.756,"end":6345.602,"text":"促進他的通行能力加大抽水站的能量這個是我們的目標好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權"},{"start":6361.27,"end":6377.945,"text":"例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制好 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝"},{"start":6388.52,"end":6400.728,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請次長來 次長"},{"start":6409.344,"end":6436.488,"text":"委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為"},{"start":6437.208,"end":6444.99,"text":"包括我們台中市面對強大的強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風24小時之內累計的降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的"},{"start":6466.377,"end":6484.316,"text":"这个豪暴雨它是大幅的一个减少不过在国科会跟环境部也提出报告未来平均退估降雨增加会有约15%那降雨的变化弧度也随着全球的一个软化"},{"start":6485.157,"end":6509.919,"text":"而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯"},{"start":6510.68,"end":6536.433,"text":"等於是月亮大但是我們淹水的面積跟中央一樣也是這個面積是有縮小的但是本席要在這邊講113年的凱米颱風為例雖然我們各項的工程都有發揮了效能出來但是我們看到這些極端的暴雨會造成中南部跟易淹水地區那您是專家請教"},{"start":6539.194,"end":6553.032,"text":"對於未來發展經濟部對於這個一煙水地區的防洪計劃你的具體措施跟你的目標那如何的能夠因應自己以台中市為例要怎麼樣來協助具體的方案請做說明"},{"start":6555.748,"end":6570.909,"text":"而且我也知道根据我们过去的努力我们淹水的面积台中市是有改善的对这是中央地方合作成功谢谢所以我们会再盘点整个台中市一淹水的地区可能不做十年前了"},{"start":6571.369,"end":6597.898,"text":"可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要增多增加那個滯洪跟儲留在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來容"},{"start":6598.778,"end":6623.86,"text":"這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要的也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視的清書"},{"start":6625.25,"end":6645.812,"text":"但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間所以把這個所謂的下水道 包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯 中央地方合作但是我們也要超減部署 因應"},{"start":6646.993,"end":6651.114,"text":"強教育以及這個暖化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電"},{"start":6666.059,"end":6678.353,"text":"的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先塵治水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水"},{"start":6685.08,"end":6710.659,"text":"但是DSET裡頭提出喔水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源呢這個提供是不確定性喔市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水呢是不是有預留這個評估請做說明"},{"start":6713.04,"end":6733.631,"text":"絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大"},{"start":6734.492,"end":6750.066,"text":"大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水"},{"start":6751.067,"end":6772.279,"text":"然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要"},{"start":6772.839,"end":6787.993,"text":"那麼遇到那個旱災的時候呢 我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清瘀 目前的清瘀狀況進度如何 而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明"},{"start":6791.161,"end":6814.783,"text":"我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個清淤量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油"},{"start":6815.384,"end":6819.746,"text":"接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以呢當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且呢要經濟部"},{"start":6844.617,"end":6862.541,"text":"全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明"},{"start":6870.806,"end":6876.634,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲"},{"start":6884.355,"end":6904.599,"text":"這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點"},{"start":6908.94,"end":6911.063,"text":"你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們同購的"},{"start":6926.383,"end":6935.249,"text":"這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價"},{"start":6953.94,"end":6961.823,"text":"要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長"},{"start":6973.935,"end":6990.535,"text":"首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放"},{"start":6992.077,"end":7019.509,"text":"你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核框法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教"},{"start":7021.05,"end":7041.109,"text":"我們現在對於電的使用,我們依法行政啦,目前...會不會送?基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的當然行政院會不會送來啊,因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度,那請問行政院會不會送來?"},{"start":7042.613,"end":7066.037,"text":"他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價"},{"start":7072.416,"end":7089.862,"text":"我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的核能結構 能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的這個台電所提出來的這個成本還高於"},{"start":7090.382,"end":7096.803,"text":"市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比"},{"start":7116.027,"end":7135.499,"text":"能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝電大大家用我們一起努力謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝張其凱委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘現在請張其凱委員做詢答親愛的市長"},{"start":7145.775,"end":7174.028,"text":"來 市長委員好市長好不容易啊 上個禮拜五電價審議委員會推翻了台電漲9%的這個漲價我們現在期待的是好好做改革"},{"start":7175.558,"end":7204.81,"text":"不只不要再漲了 可以降可是老實講我非常擔心我這幾天一拜五到今天我看經濟部發出來的新聞稿都是頭痛在移腳我是不曉得你們到底是沒有搞清楚真正的狀況還是故意在造謠我先請你來看一個 我們非常具體的來看來 市長你看一下 這是台電1月份的財報1月份啦 光是今年的1月份"},{"start":7206.032,"end":7231.484,"text":"台電又虧損了97億你看虧損最嚴重的是哪一個虧損的原因是什麼你應該是把那個虧損那個洞把它補起來對不對那目前 無論是氣的部分它的這個所謂的國際的價格還是相對於高檔左右所以我們會看到說它現在是有比這個外國人美"},{"start":7235.18,"end":7237.541,"text":"虧更多的啊光電虧了5.8啊風電虧了56億啊而且這樣很重要你知道嗎這兩個加起來才佔你所有發電量的8.5可是它賠掉你這個月的65%"},{"start":7255.765,"end":7259.448,"text":"你天然氣買那麼多你才賠了15億喔結果你買光電特別是風電佔我們所有發電量的8.5%可是你賠掉了"},{"start":7267.625,"end":7291.458,"text":"60幾億就是你一月份賠的65%100塊的賠的錢裡面有65%是風電跟光的風電跟光電沒有委員台電公司一年的支出近兆元他買綠電只有900億元以去年為例的話他只佔了13%他怎麼可能虧到五六千億這是不是你的財報表你看你的財報表所以這個我覺得跟你說的油跟電"},{"start":7297.662,"end":7306.072,"text":"油跟氣的這個價格還在相對於高檔的這個部分啊對啦 我是問你啦 哪個賠最多嘛"},{"start":7309.278,"end":7333.679,"text":"你可以講你的天然氣可能還賠了15億問題是你風電賠了56光電賠了5.8而且它量很少耶你的天然氣已經超過50%了對不對左邊不是我們的財報啦右邊這個才是啦那我跟委員所說明的啦核能佔比最高的韓國它超過了30%事實上它的電價漲幅還比我們更高"},{"start":7334.62,"end":7351.591,"text":"所以基本上我目前六千億的虧損為什麼說上個禮拜五電價審議委員會要討論這麼久我們逐一的還核算報告所委員所指導的部分事實上這些虧損不是台電的經營不善的主因市長市長你現在"},{"start":7352.592,"end":7372.851,"text":"要讓我們人民電價不只不要漲要降你現在可以看你破洞破在哪個地方嘛我已經很清楚跟你講破洞你看很清楚對不對破洞最大是哪裡?豐電嘛對不對而且如果從比例來看都是光啊就是再生能源啊那這個是可以改的第一個你現在開始在賣RE RE30對不對你要多賣一點第二個要買太貴的還有一個還有一個賺錢的呢"},{"start":7379.008,"end":7403.007,"text":"核能賺多少錢?核能在今年一月份還幫你們賺錢賺了八億多欸核能如果核一沒有重啟核二核三都可以用的話一年是一千億欸你把賺錢的一千億把它丟掉然後呢你在賽車農園這一塊你又多花錢你當然就漲價啊來 我再跟你講你現在最嚴重的問題你一直講天然氣的價格"},{"start":7408.442,"end":7437.847,"text":"一直漲上次在去年我第一次質詢這個王美花跟陳建仁院長的時候他們就已經承認這一點啊我們的天然氣在2022年跟2023年到達一個高峰對不對2023年兩年前就降下來了對不對你看一下這個趨勢圖看到沒有看到沒有到2025年現在的趨勢現在的天然氣是不是跟2018 2019只多了一點點來我要更進一步給你看看下一張圖"},{"start":7439.912,"end":7469.241,"text":"最近這三年天然氣的發電量跟購買金額你天然氣越買越多從110年的3260到112年3434到今年3296最嚴重是右邊你沒有發現它的平均單價已經在降了嘛結果你一直在對外講說我們的天然氣還是很貴113年有沒有比112年便宜有沒有有沒有降下來"},{"start":7471.032,"end":7472.735,"text":"這個數字並不是我們台電的財務的報表或是我們電價審議委員會所討論的部分"},{"start":7484.841,"end":7500.893,"text":"那事實上 討論重點是不是不是 市長你的意思是 基本上我們的貸價審議委員會有志之事 當初是很修正的我們這樣專家跟外部委員多了二分之一所以這一次他們做了一個非常公平的顧及到不要衝擊到物價不要衝擊到這個產業 很好啊可是你現在誤導啊"},{"start":7505.456,"end":7525.515,"text":"人家已經做了不要漲價而且要檢討你整個成本那我給你看的是非常具體的第一個天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了這個很清楚吧113年一度的話2.75比112年的3.17便宜很多吧這是天然氣第二個你的再生能源你的風跟電"},{"start":7526.946,"end":7537.674,"text":"光 確實買太貴嘛那我也知道你們現在改進了我今天又跟你講 R130你要趕快賣你用那貴的價格買進來 趕快賣出去對不對 這個漏洞就會變少來 我們看一下另外是核電的問題核電啦 核一跟核二核三一年差不多400多億度的電嘛 對不對"},{"start":7548.803,"end":7561.652,"text":"你現在核電一度 成本一塊多嘛你現在所有的電是三塊多嘛 對不對每賣一度電 大概會賺兩塊多啊400多億度 乘起來就是一千億耶好 所以我做個簡單總結那個 市長"},{"start":7565.08,"end":7579.937,"text":"第一不要一直在講天然氣成本高漲這個問題他在前年就這樣下來了第二個你的再生能源我今天給你看的是報表光是一月份的時候你的風跟電跟光就賠了那麼多"},{"start":7581.258,"end":7597.245,"text":"它占所有有總發電量的8點多%結果賠掉了你的60幾%這當然就是表示問題啊所以第一個你要去不要買那麼貴第二個買進來以後不用商店的價格賣出去你讓那個距離讓這個虧損可以減少第二個趕快重啟核電"},{"start":7601.067,"end":7620.762,"text":"今天教文委員會已經在審了我們先把法源通過之後我們可以做一個可以重啟核電 延長核電日本已經在重啟啊美國在重啟 南韓也在重啟啊你如果說南韓南韓就是電價太高啊所以他兩年多前他開始重啟核電啊讓他的電價可以降下來啊"},{"start":7621.903,"end":7635.775,"text":"人家全世界都在做那台灣到底是什麼全世界只有民進黨政府跟世界潮流要對算嗎並沒有並沒有我請那個總經理再說明包委員其實有很多數字都有問題啦你剛剛提很多都有問題包括第一個綠電綠電的部分"},{"start":7638.362,"end":7659.91,"text":"目前留在台電手上的囤購大概都是比較早期因為我們要鼓勵再生能源所以當時的囤購費比較高那部分還在台電其他的像今年的那些太陽能幾乎都便宜的都出去了所以也就是說再生能源繼續發展下去它的成本是會越來越低的所以一樣供應也是這個狀況你的再生能源到現在你價格還是在往上走對不對"},{"start":7660.67,"end":7682.293,"text":"價格大概今年到明年就是到頂的接著下來就是往下的到頂都還是很高啊我給他看一下發展再生能源是全世界各國的趨勢這個出奇的鼓勵是一定要做的總經理你看一下我們是理性物質科學在問政我們讓書記講話最近這三年再生能源這個價格你看110年平均單價多少"},{"start":7684.768,"end":7709.43,"text":"4.75到了112年上升5.20到了去年5.46欸一直在往上走欸當初蔡英文總統跟我們講我們買的這個再生能源這個量會變大以後價格就會降下來到現在不只沒降啊還是在漲啊所以已經持續在降了只是說各位你也知道那個數字整體量是慢慢往下但是今年的量"},{"start":7710.532,"end":7714.416,"text":"這個價格已經都是往下了就是這個價格我們還會檢視今年2016到2020氣價的均價是9塊到目前為止我們預估是15.4塊那基本上還是在相對的高檔"},{"start":7725.279,"end":7752.253,"text":"所以跟委員所說明的是我們經過這個討論事實上這兩年確實是一個國際燃料價格的一個高峰那現在雖然稍微委員講說有稍微降下來是回到這個情況對啊 降下來而且你從一月份看得出來嘛它虧損沒有那麼嚴重啦它跟疫情前的話來 我們做個結論啦它跟疫情前還是相對來天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了你說稍微高一點點也沒有造成你很嚴重的虧損你去跟風"},{"start":7755.354,"end":7761.617,"text":"風電跟光電比這個洞是最大的所以你要趕快去補這個最大的洞第二個大的洞就是核電跟112年的能源價格飛漲的一個狀況那剛剛委員所講的是舉兩年前的這個狀況這個"},{"start":7773.086,"end":7786.293,"text":"跟我們剛剛敘述的是不一樣的事情因為那兩年的話是虧了六千億欸所以你已經撥了三次三千億啊漲了四次電價啊漲了四十趴欸市長你們用人民的浪費錢民脂民膏三千億已經補上去了漲了四次的這個電價該補該補該把這兩年的該夠了吧該夠了吧不是不是"},{"start":7801.78,"end":7821.09,"text":"過去台電公司我們實質撥補給台電公司只有五百億其中兩千五百億是為了投資未來讓台電的電網更韌性韌性更好它是增資的增資不能來抵銷這個時候的開支的部分你已經漲了人民市市電價漲了四十幾趴你說這兩年的"},{"start":7825.812,"end":7849.688,"text":"還補不過來嗎而且現在已經回到這個原點了好 更重要的你現在開源節流嘛我告訴你你綠電趕快不要買那麼貴趕快多賣出去你的收入就會進來嘛對不對我看你的五大改革裡面有這一項嘛要多賣然後第二個核電我們今天教科文教文委員會已經在審了趕快重建核電比我們高出那麼多"},{"start":7850.709,"end":7869.902,"text":"它的價格成本比我們更高而且他們撥補的這個預算啊還曾經比我們現在台電公司所說的五百億元更高啊市長這是Composites用卡達夫形容的不是當然全世界美國連歐盟現在都在重啟核電嘛就是因為不只穩定電價是低的嘛"},{"start":7870.703,"end":7896.36,"text":"那你現在就是讓你現在既然有虧損當然就是用便宜的電啊所以才講到說核電是要重啟的第二個你買了太貴的這個再生能源你想辦法要買便宜一點嘛對不對第二個趕快把它賣出去嘛這個沒有爭議啊現在所有再生能源的平均的成本慢慢會下降另外事實上所新的一月份都還沒有降嘛再回到第一章一月份的看這個"},{"start":7897.541,"end":7919.507,"text":"你要跟人民交代為什麼核能一個月可以賺8億多你不要把它丟到水裡面去然後風電一個月損失了56億光電損失了5.8億你要跟人民交代是這個你要解決這兩個問題不是我不知道委員你藍色的左邊這個數字是怎麼去算的從你左邊右邊整理出來的啊沒有沒有那盈虧沒有這樣算法的啦"},{"start":7922.855,"end":7943.931,"text":"那你給我一個詳細的數目字好不好我們來對一下不知道在怎麼講怎麼對你就是買風電虧損是最嚴重嘛我們比例去看光電也是最嚴重那你一個禮拜內給我你說這個不夠精準你給我一個禮拜我們來對一下好不好我們跟全民交代更重要的是市長最重要"},{"start":7944.895,"end":7962.449,"text":"上個禮拜這是一個天大的好消息大家都鬆我一口氣人民鬆一口氣產業鬆一口氣那你們責任現在就是趕快去檢討整個能源界過什麼地方出問題再生能源核電對不對檢討好了以後10月份才不用漲電價啊可以降啊"},{"start":7963.442,"end":7978.152,"text":"一心努力啦好不好一心努力你一個禮拜給我你說這個不會精準一個禮拜給我一個明確的我們來對一下那到時候我們跟前面講到底哪個是比較準的好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7994.201,"end":7994.721,"text":"都還好"},{"start":8022.876,"end":8023.236,"text":"感謝您的參與"},{"start":8041.563,"end":8067.655,"text":"我當然知道你們不愛核冷卻啦 可是什麼事都在規劃我們都探望過去來 看到他也好在行 最好是他有信心我沒有說特殊的資本來講 他說現在會嗎所以我就說不問就是現在就是等一下再考慮他核酸是外港的 核酸是外國的因為西外交不開的會 他是秘密會 我不敢講"},{"start":8075.271,"end":8077.037,"text":"好啦好啦 算給你上吧"},{"start":8081.357,"end":8081.897,"text":"我現在很稀罕"},{"start":8115.795,"end":8118.939,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8135.736,"end":8139.498,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":8159.031,"end":8159.051,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":8187.039,"end":8187.8,"text":"可以可以可以,謝謝"},{"start":8202.026,"end":8204.127,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":8236.565,"end":8236.805,"text":"我用這個"},{"start":8285.643,"end":8289.046,"text":"现在开始开会请郑天才委员做询答"},{"start":8311.353,"end":8311.594,"text":"等一下"},{"start":8343.121,"end":8370.644,"text":"主席 各位委員有請經濟部次長還有工業部次長黃次長兩位好今天的議題非常的好我們針對經濟部的報告裡面也特別提到"},{"start":8371.822,"end":8398.673,"text":"這個防洪治理將以流域系統性治水的五大策略進行這個這裡面都提了非常重要的這個治理的一個原則當然很重要的就是怎麼樣去落實執行落實執行我先把這個一些讓這個兩位了解一下"},{"start":8399.724,"end":8425.524,"text":"距離台東縣池上鄉望安溪上禮拜我也跟水利署的同仁還有八合集的同仁也去會刊像這個對於我們的農田造成了很大的損害只要一下大雨就會造成這樣的一個"},{"start":8428.271,"end":8455.43,"text":"而且這個如果這個一直在擴大的話也會影響到這個相關的橋所以這個部分是一個需要去加強去防治的一個部分當然這裡面有需要去進行的部分這個是屬於這個水利署的部分當然還有很多的我只是幾個幾個案例"},{"start":8456.618,"end":8482.286,"text":"那這個所以怎麼樣去加強防範是一個很重要的當然有的會涉及到人身安全那我們這個看這個農業部的這個農業部的我們以112年9月4號海葵颱風造成這個受風箱三邊路整個房子都淹埋都被淹埋這個"},{"start":8486.158,"end":8510.662,"text":"都不會買這個部分等一下請農業部說明一下這個112年到現在有沒有有沒有做一個整治如果還要查的話再把書面資料提供給我好不好這個都是直接的傷害這個這個也是"},{"start":8515.543,"end":8542.273,"text":"另外就是去年 去年這也是水利署的 那個農業部的 農業部水保署的康瑞颱風造成一里鎮延城部落這整個房子都淹埋了 都淹埋了所以這個部分 這個表示這個這個源頭 源頭沒有整治好就造成這樣 還好啊 人都沒有怎麼樣啊"},{"start":8543.582,"end":8558.96,"text":"所以這個部分是一個另外就是花蓮豐濱港口這個也是上面的土石流移下來先請經濟部次長"},{"start":8565.667,"end":8593.295,"text":"委員我們東部地區都是我們遭受颱風第一級的區域不管是台東或是花蓮去年行政院來支援這兩個縣市政府都有相關的傾訴的工作包括委員所提到的剛剛講的萬安溪的部分據我們了解它是沒有治理計畫的但是從照片中顯示我們必須要去做緊急的所謂的應急工程"},{"start":8593.795,"end":8621.585,"text":"那這個應急工程我們會用開口合約的方式會讓趕快去進場去把它應有的培後、應有的保護先把它做起來那總體上面的話我們還是回到我們原來的框架裡面系統性的治理針對縣市館的部分我們希望它加速去做整體的評估規劃包應該清書的地方去清書然後應該做治理工程的部分去做治理工程"},{"start":8622.305,"end":8642.532,"text":"至於協助地方政府的預算現在已經通過我們立法院的聯席委員會的一個審查我們希望趕快通過這個預算可以讓這個治理工作可以加緊來掌握住讓我們的民眾及早擺脫這些所謂的威脅以上"},{"start":8643.854,"end":8669.869,"text":"好 那個農業部要不要說明一下報告委員剛剛委員所提的幾個案例的話那我們在會後會提供詳細的書面報告跟委員報告我們相關復建的進度那第二個部分就是因為台東的這個部分因為如果颱風由東部而來的話它是直接的受封面所以特別是在一些河道彎區的這個地點特別容易成災區所以我們這個農村水保署"},{"start":8670.249,"end":8695.805,"text":"也增加了這些新增的這些潛勢溪流遇自災的這個地區那進行這個監控管理那也會一併的把這相關的這個資料提供給委員做參考以上好這個重要的這個無論是經濟部還是農業部重要的就是說除了提供資料之外很重要的就是要去"},{"start":8697.905,"end":8726.484,"text":"還沒有完成的要繼續的加強因為這個部分是已經造成這麼大的損害還好真的是人沒有怎麼樣所以這個部分是一個我們需要去加強把這個相關的經費其實這個應該都可以以這個相關的這些災害的這些遺患祭祭都應該去進行好 這個農業部先回座"},{"start":8727.608,"end":8755.661,"text":"那個次長經濟部這個我們現在接下來談這個水價的部分這個今天這個自來水公司要把這個水價的部分調漲是否調漲會送到這個經濟部這個請問一下次長現在有收到了嗎"},{"start":8757.572,"end":8782.887,"text":"台水公司剛剛已經有說明他今天下班前會把資料送到送出來那我們還沒看到資料我們不便於評價但是基本上站在經濟部的立場我們希望台水公司優先從自己的部分經營的部分可以去做檢討比如說台電公司過去做了檢討從四大面向不管說從生產"},{"start":8784.349,"end":8810.086,"text":"包括管理的部分可以減省那當然我們對於台水公司31年來因為水價沒有辦法調整然後沒有辦法去改善他的這個進水的措施我們要全面性的檢視台水公司的這個建議然後我們希望在優先不影響我們的社會經濟的發展然後照顧民生的這個原則之下來妥善的來檢視這個計畫的一個可行性這個"},{"start":8814.867,"end":8843.17,"text":"次長你最清楚了這個因為你在水利署很久事實上自來水公司第一個當然就是它的管線所謂的管線事實上都是公務預算都是經濟部水利署所有這個譬如說從沒有自來水到開始有自來水"},{"start":8844.501,"end":8869.473,"text":"都是政府的等於都是人民的納稅錢去興建這些自來水的相關的這些系統當然後來移交給這個自來水公司之後自來水公司有他的需要他負擔的部分沒有錯但是如果我們看整個政府以人民的納稅錢投入進去的"},{"start":8872.778,"end":8875.519,"text":"所以這個部分是我不認為是要調帳我不認為是要去調帳因為整個"},{"start":8882.264,"end":8901.735,"text":"幾乎的經費都是政府與人民的納稅錢所投入的這個給經濟部做一個重要的一個參考好 謝謝委員指教所以我是不建議希望應該不要調帳 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"},{"start":8912.383,"end":8915.946,"text":"好謝謝趙委員請賴次長賴次長次長好委員好那個滇教誠議委員會現在確定是不調漲嗎"},{"start":8927.918,"end":8945.247,"text":"那我之前其實也提出來了我也認為這個兩條路啦一個是政府的撥補一個是調漲電價但是調漲電價對於整個台灣的未來影響太重大了所以我認為其實應該走的是用政府撥補的方式是一個比較好的方式但是"},{"start":8946.207,"end":8959.174,"text":"整個國會其實並沒有支持啦所以我個人看法應該等到新民意出來之後讓民意來做最後決定也就是說七八月新的民意出來之後那如果新的民意認為還是應該要"},{"start":8962.395,"end":8978.791,"text":"這個不要撥補漲電價那當然就接受這樣的做法但是如果新民一出來是支持現在政府的方案由政府來撥補電價不要漲電價不要影響到民生的物價那我認為應該就採用這樣的方案次長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":8980.298,"end":9003.565,"text":"基本上目前台電的這個虧損是過去的這個能源價格飛漲所以我們現在爭取的撥補包括疫後的這個預算500億還有我們113年所提出來的最佳期預算1000億就是為了來彌補台電過去市長如果未來政府有撥補的話是不是就可以不調漲民生的電價"},{"start":9004.964,"end":9030.791,"text":"我們會優先從自己的體質的改善來做讓台電公司有一個健全的財務結構的體質如果政府撥補應該是可以不用調漲民生電價是吧這個部分在電價審議委員會裡面有去做一個檢討但是基本上我們希望說我們可以做的部分我們先做所以台電公司從去年年底開始他預估啊"},{"start":9031.784,"end":9053.073,"text":"雖然今年都是虧損因為這個電價沒有調轉的關係可以虧損達到這個500億元左右但是他自己開源節流他可以省了150億所以如果有撥補的話應該可以朝向部長電價這樣的方向來做這個我們可以來試圖來再盤點一下再看看"},{"start":9055.189,"end":9057.311,"text":"過去這段時間俄羅斯戰爭導致這個油料上漲有6000億的虧損主要的虧損在這邊那現在政府撥補多少進來的"},{"start":9065.977,"end":9078.626,"text":"500億所以其實還有5500的一個缺口那如果接下來如果未來有2000億再撥補進來的話那適度的一些撥補透過這幾年經濟成長不錯的狀況有盈餘的狀況來撥補我認為這個會比發現金是更好的方式發現金因為這個在解決的是讓民生讓物價不要波動這個對於整個國家的經濟體制這會對於整個民生幫助更大市長應該同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":9096.077,"end":9118.141,"text":"若是有這些錢進來的話對於台電公司改善他的財務體質會有非常大的一個正面幫助過去因為物價的上漲總共台電背負了6000億左右的支出因為電價被為主而調漲那其中就有2600億是屬於照顧民生照顧弱勢的部分"},{"start":9118.672,"end":9146.607,"text":"是我們希望還是朝這個方向有這個部分由政府來撥補政府有盈利有賺到錢由政府來撥補台電來減損這些減少這些民生的電價調漲而造成的整個物價的波動我認為這個對這個才是一個三贏的方案我認為這是三贏方案對人民好對國家好對台電也好所以我希望還是朝這個方向由七八月新民一出來之後我們希望取得支持之後那一樣由國家來撥補"},{"start":9147.768,"end":9151.011,"text":"不要來漲民生電價來繼續穩住我們的這個物價我認為這個對長遠的這個台灣的經濟發展整體上是比較好的謝謝委員的建議那113年追加解的預算1000億現在在朝野協商中也通過我們委員會也希望儘快的"},{"start":9164.603,"end":9188.593,"text":"這個部分就是能趕快的落實對於台電公司現在的這個虧損的狀況應該很可惜啦基金委員會專業的審查的意見其實到朝野協商都沒有被尊重啦我認為其實這個應該要嚴厲的譴責朝野協商這個機制基金委員會大家經過很多審慎思考多數委員這也長期都在委員會內對這個的思考跟敏感度更高的那經過了很多的思考像上次大概認為其實是凍結30億"},{"start":9191.374,"end":9211.841,"text":"這個就可以結果到了朝野協商是完全被刪除掉1000億完全不尊重經濟委員會裡面這個各朝野各政黨有藍有綠有白大家的一個共識我認為這個其實是不恰當的那我再問一下很多人在講說虧損的原因是包括說是綠電甚至包括核電次長是這樣子的嗎並不是這樣子的"},{"start":9215.517,"end":9238.038,"text":"從我們3月29我們在FB所提出來的就是委員現在這張slide的這個右下角這個圖卡可以看到即便我們恢復到我們2016年當時核能這個佔比高達16%的這個狀況以現在的這個燃油價格來算的話它的成本還是要將近4塊錢這是第一個第二個"},{"start":9242.81,"end":9267.907,"text":"我們鄰近的國家韓國他的核能的占比遠高於這個數值他政府撥補的這個預算他的虧損也是比我們台電公司更大過去幾年來台電一直努力不管是颱風風災我們看到說台電的員工很快速的復原請次長跟請經濟部要持續的說明現在有特定的人包括一些立委甚至有"},{"start":9269.147,"end":9282.291,"text":"廣軍不斷的這樣講講100遍 講1000遍就變事實了現在講的一副好像就是這些巨額的虧損是因為綠電的關係 肥自私 肥油油然後是因為核能的關係 這樣這樣的說法完全是一個錯誤的說法"},{"start":9285.812,"end":9312.367,"text":"這兩個的佔比非常的低而且扶持歷練本來就是國家政策的方向核能本來就是一個還要審慎評估的因為包含核廢料包含核能安全朝野都沒有達成共識嘛沒有共識的東西你用什麼規則這都是假議題啊用這樣的方式佔這麼低的佔比把六千億完全歸在這裡面這是在顛倒是非這是在模糊視聽我們認為經濟部要持續的說明不然一百次一千次假的就變真的這就是認知作戰好不好"},{"start":9313.024,"end":9327.452,"text":"是謝謝委員指教那我們也非常感謝台電員工過去的這個付出再來時間有限仁武區的去年淹水兩次從這個凱米到山陀兒次長也很熟悉治水的問題"},{"start":9328.814,"end":9346.914,"text":"市長 全力的支持仁武的這個積淹水問題好不好 11.2億 請盡速的到位同時間協助仁武 仁武是一個快速開發的一個區域那兩次的颱風 兩次的淹水 這真的是情何以堪所以我認為 請部裡面全力的支持這個治水經費 沒有問題吧"},{"start":9347.975,"end":9366.588,"text":"完全沒有問題 包括11.2億之外的我們還有將近12億左右 還有包括將近2.5億的應急工程我們都會全力來協助 這個都是我們盤點過必須要優先治理的一個區域這個都是在用在人物的這個工程上面嗎 是嗎"},{"start":9368.249,"end":9389.608,"text":"包括仁武啊 包括典寶溪周邊的那個啦它其實問題你一定要治本才有辦法去更遠的解決問題我們希望徹底解決這個仁武周邊的典寶溪周邊這些淹水的問題一個進步的城市 進步的國家真的不能 當然他們好語量超大啦但是我們還是要努力去克服減輕人民的痛苦"},{"start":9390.408,"end":9392.851,"text":"因為八控橋跟19萬的經費有4.2億今年會用減一款優先來做這個確定嘛對不對"},{"start":9399.889,"end":9424.159,"text":"這個是會我們用結餘款優先來進行包括測試的工作那有一些必須要去使用到用地的部分的話我們優先展開這個用地的處理所以這個4.2億今年就要來做了這個提早啟動提早完成可以減輕人民的一些這個風險這個請次長署長務必支持好沒問題嗎好我們會來列管好"},{"start":9424.679,"end":9439.415,"text":"另外啟京的排水我們也花了一億一億啦齁這個也謝謝市長這個是天文報草的這個預算對那我們能做的因為我們不可能請人民搬走了嘛他面臨這樣的問題但是我們能做的是透過堤防加高"},{"start":9440.195,"end":9467.04,"text":"內水的這個堵住然後把抽水機抽除吃個低化地區來優先這個也是在讓旗津這邊的鄉親減少包括大潮包括颱風來的時候的造成的積淹水問題這個也希望如期如質來完成從2025到2627我希望能夠如期如質甚至加快的完成這也請市長來列管來處理好嗎好謝謝好不好這請市長來加速列管好謝謝市長好謝謝委員"},{"start":9471.301,"end":9490.849,"text":"我們接下來請謝依鳳召委謝謝主席 我想要請賴次長 請農田水利署的蔡署長請次長跟署長 謝謝"},{"start":9496.323,"end":9510.142,"text":"委員好今年的汛期以及有沒有可能發生就是之前的百年大旱那個情況那我相信你們是不是對於相關的水情有重要的掌握"},{"start":9511.441,"end":9537.177,"text":"今年上半年的部分不會發生百年大旱的狀況因為我們中部以北的水庫啊蓄水率都有九成那第一期到座的整天期的這個用水都已經灌溉了然後接下來就會進入到本天期就是用水量比較少的但是我們密切來關注於春雨的降雨之外還有包括梅雨的這個降雨的可能因為我們所有的"},{"start":9537.757,"end":9564.364,"text":"防汛或是抗旱的這個準備工作是一年365天我們都會出示來盤點對 那請問一下就是現在有關於不管是我們未來的汛期有可能也會造成像去年的海米颱風一樣的這樣子的災情那對於水利署而言你可能認為說災情比過去更好了"},{"start":9564.864,"end":9588.315,"text":"但是對於民眾的損失以及對於他們安全的這樣相關的影響他們還是很重大啊尤其是在氣候變遷嚴峻的極端氣候的產生之下對於大家而言這個急降雨產生的情況以及最近急降溫"},{"start":9589.375,"end":9603.822,"text":"那對於這樣子農田水利以及我們水利署相關的這樣子的影響那你們有做好相關的因應嗎有如同委員所說的極端事變其實在我們來看就像大白鯊一樣"},{"start":9604.872,"end":9633.985,"text":"他來的很快而且對我們整體社會的這個損失也相當的大所以我們在今天的報告的第三頁跟第四頁特別提到五大措施這五大措施不管從整體性的治理改善還有減少淹水入家門加速退水以及防災應變的工作現在都已經在次第的實施我們希望在5月1號訊息來臨之前我們就可以去做充分的準備但是"},{"start":9635.376,"end":9655.138,"text":"依照國科會包括委員所呈現的數據顯示我們現在面臨到的這個狀況一年比一年可能更加的險峻所以行政委員為了要超前部署這些的狀況所以在去年成立了水及流域永續小組那這個小組是在解決委員所提的問題"},{"start":9656.576,"end":9681.321,"text":"是 那對於我提出來這個數字就是國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年的這個數字裡面他說有大部分大約14%的鄉鎮都會處於較高的洪水風險而且3%的鄉鎮淹水的情況是在現在的情況下就是已經有這個極端氣候的情況下會更加的嚴峻"},{"start":9682.461,"end":9706.934,"text":"那對於我們淹水風險升高的鄉鎮尤其在彰化那有面臨到海岸線的部分我們是排行第三名的這個就是說沿海地區的易淹的深度會超過1.5公尺的風險那你們有沒有提出相關的減災的這個措施呢第一個"},{"start":9708.137,"end":9719.705,"text":"我們整體的海岸防護計畫顯示彰化的海岸是一級防護海岸所以一級防護海岸就是剛剛委員所提到的情況發生的話它會產生三種以上的風險"},{"start":9720.953,"end":9738.976,"text":"包括爆草易淹的這個狀況而且彰化的沿海也是我們潮沙最大的區域所以我們現在所做的事情不管是從養攤還有包括從上游不斷的讓這些泥沙可以到河口甚至對於我們的海岸的防護會做"},{"start":9739.617,"end":9765.18,"text":"一些保護的工作之外我們都有做我們現在水利署的水利規劃實驗所針對於濁水溪它有做一個水工試驗怎麼樣讓濁水溪的泥沙慢慢的可以帶到河口然後隨著洋流主要的趨勢流可以保護我們彰化的海岸這些工作都已經在進行那未來我們也會依照國科會所推估的新的情境去套疊"},{"start":9766.567,"end":9791.566,"text":"套點了之後然後我們再來檢討我們的一起海岸防護計畫看哪一些需要加強的再來做加強好那農田水利署呢你們對於我們彰化縣的這個灌溉的取鉤那到底有沒有做好清汙以及我們在這個汛期來的時候有相關的這樣子防洪的這樣子的一個一個準備呢"},{"start":9791.966,"end":9808.148,"text":"是 非常感謝委員的垂詢 首先先跟委員報告那有關在今年度的這個全國的這個一席倒座的這個灌溉絕對都沒有問題 那因為我們做了非常多的這個調序空間還有一些智慧管理的機制那再來就是委員所垂詢到接下來這個"},{"start":9809.65,"end":9825.427,"text":"這個5月1號就進入這個訊期那事實上我們這幾年在這個居住改善的這個量能啊都比過往其實大非常的多那我們清淤 那麼除了用傳統的這個定期清淤還有這個農民到工作站通報以外那我們還增加了0800專線還有網路通報等等多元通報的機制啊"},{"start":9829.051,"end":9857.665,"text":"那我們現在就是平均處理這個清約的這個工作從這個8.2天到現在下降到4.3天那我們區定量也增加了百分之60億所以整體而言我們對於我們整個彰化地區的這個這個抗洪的這個量能事實上是大幅提升不過因為就像委員您的這個報告裡面非常的精準在這個AR6的這個情境的模擬之下那事實上我們後續要做的工作還非常多以上簡單報告"},{"start":9858.826,"end":9865.66,"text":"好 那對於市長對於現在大家所重視的另外的問題就是耗水費的這個"},{"start":9867.85,"end":9890.215,"text":"開徵 不是耗水費 就是水費會不會增加那如果在不影響民生的情況下會不會像2023年我們開徵耗水費一樣那你們開徵耗水費到現在以來有沒有辦法精準的就是說降低"},{"start":9892.356,"end":9912.243,"text":"可以增加我們的收入然後讓我們整個水的成本也可以減緩一些些那這樣子是不是會讓我們未來不用大幅度的增加水費而以耗水費的部分來做這樣相關的因應呢"},{"start":9912.563,"end":9941.109,"text":"好 首先這個耗水會的開徵感謝委員會的支持所以我們也順利開徵而這次開徵我們針對於用水9000度以上的這個部分來開徵全國大概有1600多那所收的這些耗水會會專款專用於改善輔導廠商用再生水甚至來支應我們枯旱期間的這個用水調度還有節水的作業那目前為止"},{"start":9943.17,"end":9969.886,"text":"這個我們徵收了這個狀況我們現在來看的話對於所謂的廠商它循環用水確實第一個產生很大的這個改善的一個狀況因為耗水費的開徵有一些誘因廠商可以去做這些工作那除此之外的話耗水費的這個開徵對於大用水戶節省用水量也是有相當大的幫助但是這個跟水價是不一樣的一個事情"},{"start":9970.586,"end":9989.258,"text":"因為耗水費它是一個所謂的特別功課就是課來就是專款要專用的那水費是基於使用者付費的原則那現在台水公司全國超過6.5萬多左右的這些的管路那逐漸的在老化"},{"start":9989.838,"end":10009.193,"text":"那台水公司也精進了他很多的降落的這個技術或是維修的技術我們可以看到這幾年不管是颱風、豪雨或是緊急的事變台水公司對於這些的緊急的應變的能力都逐次的在提升那我們會針對於台水公司今天所提出來"},{"start":10010.154,"end":10021.908,"text":"今天下班前他所會提出來這個報告全面性來檢視怎麼樣來協助台水公司來健全他的體質之外來符合我們委員會包括社會的祈求"},{"start":10022.657,"end":10047.834,"text":"好 谢谢但是我还有其实我对于你刚才做的那个手板就是你们对于说好像核能就是说用电就是比高达30%的那个南韩那他们的那个电费还是比我们大那其实你也知道说现在不管是美国以及欧洲国家都已经开始使用核能那即便是在成本这么高的情况下为什么大家要核能是不是"},{"start":10050.481,"end":10076.888,"text":"基本上我們對新核能技術的這個掌控台電公司都有去follow國際的訊息那甚至台電公司相關的這個同仁也會去看國外去看到這些他新的這個技術的一個開放的一個狀況但是我們對於能源的使用無論是新能源或是舊能源他基本上社會希望核能要安全的社會希望說"},{"start":10078.976,"end":10107.494,"text":"核廢料要能處理的那這些所謂的使用必須要有一些的共識基於這三個原則那我看國際的社會對於核能的一個使用也大概不外乎是跟我們國家所產生的這個原則一樣但是我還是要再次跟委員所說明的事情是韓國的核能佔比這麼高他不管是住宅用電跟工業的用電都遠高於我國所以基本上"},{"start":10108.803,"end":10134.376,"text":"在電價審議委員會還有包括我們在工作會議裡面檢視台電公司的財務報告裡面確實是在111年跟112年台電公司因為電價不為主額反映的部分它吸收的這個虧損是6000億其中有2600億是照顧民生的所以也之所以如此所以我們希望說爭取預算來撥補"},{"start":10137.824,"end":10160.583,"text":"這塊讓這個台電公司背負過去的所謂的燃料成本這個大幅上漲的這個累積的這個虧損讓他可以趕快的穩定下來然後他可以去前瞻未來包括他電網韌性的改善甚至很多新的綠能還有包括新的能源的措施的這個掌握好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝馮委員謝謝"},{"start":10167.216,"end":10192.744,"text":"我們接下來請一下邱志偉委員謝謝經濟部賴財務市長還有國科會林副主委賴市長 林副主委"},{"start":10199.055,"end":10219.148,"text":"市長今天的議題抗旱跟防洪基本上是兩個極端的議題他都希望說這個風調雨順但是事實上是天有不測風雲旱災跟水災並不是現在才有並不是因為完全是極端氣候造成的以前當然有水災也有旱災"},{"start":10220.461,"end":10238.022,"text":"那目前因為極端氣候造成說它發生的頻率會增加或者它的規模會擴大或者它不可測性會增加所以以我的觀察啦目前抗旱跟防洪不可能同時成立 對不對這兩個災害不可能同時發生嘛"},{"start":10238.846,"end":10264.396,"text":"水太縮 水太少 有時候一夕之間就反轉過去很多的記錄是對 以long term來看不可能說兩個致災性或者巨大致災不可能同時發生一定是有它的間歇性那以發生頻率來看我覺得是近幾年來大概有百年大旱因為那幾年颱風都沒進來那這個反而是如果說正常性一年有五六個颱風入境台灣"},{"start":10267.813,"end":10282.764,"text":"那它帶來的這個雨會造成自災性的這個水患反而它頻率比較大那我今天為什麼請這個國科會副主委國科會這個副主委請教一下科學園區的防洪"},{"start":10284.719,"end":10300.11,"text":"是你們負責還是水利署來負責園區是我們負責你們負責你們看你們報告完全沒有關於這個園區的防洪抗災防洪計劃不要說抗災啦防洪計劃就好了因為你今天只請中科為什麼南科沒有來"},{"start":10301.171,"end":10313.857,"text":"那個那個南科就沒有問題嗎不是是中科統一負責所有的業務那基本上我們都是照這個我覺得有問題輪值我們是輪值對還要輪值啊對對中科了解南科的這個這個繁紅的狀況嗎了解了解"},{"start":10316.738,"end":10343.969,"text":"因為我們都彙整到我們的那個國科會我們都是一起去討論的那如果南科發生這個自災性的這個洪災的時候我要打電話去中科請中科來支援啊不是不是我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已這個你們要檢討一下我現在才知道說為什麼是中科負責全國科學園區未來科學園區越來越多連高雄、屏東、嘉義都有沒有跟委員報告是輪值可能明年就會換到那個"},{"start":10346.592,"end":10372.819,"text":"你應該是一個獨立的由南科有一個抗災防洪小組中科有一個小組然後竹科有一個小組他不可能輪值去管全國的科學園區的防洪或者這個防洪的規劃是是 更為您報告他是輪值彙整其實是各個園區自行規劃這個你們置入再檢討一下是好 那個今天的報告請教一下經濟部代次長"},{"start":10374.343,"end":10397.821,"text":"四月份北中南東各區召開防汛準備會議我認為應該是各縣市你應該落實到各縣市比如南區來說南區裡面包括澎湖、嘉義、雲南對不對到屏東這個各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣我認為你應該落實到各縣市多幾次的會議而已要講得真實"},{"start":10400.67,"end":10416.203,"text":"比方說這個高雄你有點寶溪治水防洪那個還有這個後津溪治水防洪屏東還有屏東的問題嘉義的問題台南的問題啊你不能一個區分市場你就把它辦完了沒有 跟委員所說明的"},{"start":10417.334,"end":10439.989,"text":"我們每一個縣市會從核酸分屬先檢討 如委員所說的方式每一個流域 每一個風險點都盤點出來那至於說四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了我認為應該是這樣擴大到各區分散到各區 然後縣市所長都要列席"},{"start":10441.767,"end":10447.004,"text":"因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官所以我希望說要落實到各縣市"},{"start":10447.884,"end":10474.273,"text":"是 我們現在看到的話 各縣市的首長大部分都會在訊息之前召開當地的縣市的黃訊的會議那是地方型的 那是縣市主管的但你跟中央地方在訊息之中要怎麼合作我希望要落實以縣市為主好 謝謝委員建議 這我們再進進另外啊 對抽水站跟這個水門跟抽水機的管理你現在都委外對不對"},{"start":10475.968,"end":10503.979,"text":"基本上我們有自己的所謂的自己可以動用的這個抽水機很大部分是委外我知道嘛每一個抽水站大部分它有它這個委外的公司委外有管理員在那邊管理這個抽水站那個有時候開這個閘門要打開的時候沒打該關的時候沒關會造成自災所以這部分你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任第一個所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機我們有一個QR code"},{"start":10504.639,"end":10530.431,"text":"他現在在哪個地方他的妥善率怎麼樣他這個馬上可以回傳聯繫的機制一定要很完整讓里長讓區長能夠迅速能夠掌握到這個水閘門的狀況什麼時候開什麼時候關什麼時候閉所以這部分是不是可以落實一下這個對水閘門或者這個戳水站戳水及相關的管理可以嗎這個我們已經有在但是委員所說的我們在盡興"},{"start":10531.96,"end":10544.204,"text":"另外這個再生水廠原本是在高雄是沒有在北高雄是沒有是臨海跟鳳山嘛那我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了這個鋼橋那請內政部來好了鋼橋跟這個楠梓"},{"start":10548.365,"end":10562.199,"text":"好 那目前這兩個再生水廠當然是使你有這個汙水下水道 雨水下水道你才能有再生水廠對不對對好 再生水廠在這個市中心或者是在都會區市商隊可以的"},{"start":10563.348,"end":10589.634,"text":"所以才有這個條件可以設立這個南子戰車水場跟鋼橋戰車水場那也是我的大力爭取才有的這戰車水場是日後要提供於產業園區的廠商所使用對不對目前相關的辦法 比如說你們修正的戰車水辦法這個只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶 對不對要五成以上的這個戰車水的使用是不是有這個規定"},{"start":10591.33,"end":10619.757,"text":"好 如果這樣的規定的話 未來越來越多廠商進駐 而且都是大廠它每年一定超過兩萬度 你舊廠要新擴或者你要蓋新廠 譬如台積電未來可能有一廠 二廠 三廠 四廠 五廠還有相當的 相關其他的供應鏈也會進駐那你都要求到兩萬噸以上 他們都符合這個條件那你會不會供不應求 再問誰 目前以剛巧的狀況來看 跟男子"},{"start":10623.73,"end":10648.166,"text":"如果全部的廠商用水通通都要用再生水目前有這個供不應求的狀況是存在的我是特別針對這個所謂男子產業園區跟路族跟這個橋樓科學園區跟白浦未來白浦產業園區那麼多大型廠商的進駐你現在用這個條例以每年每三年要檢討一次而且還有五成的再生水但你未來沒有辦法供應他如果違法怎麼辦"},{"start":10651.428,"end":10673.066,"text":"跟委員說明就災生水的部分目前如果產業有這個需求我們會重新來加大災生水的一個供水的一個能量那你的能量就有限啊你剛才教男子我們努力原本是沒有原本是零我至於說才有7萬噸那7萬噸你可以符合未來他需求符合你法律規定的需求嗎的要求嗎都要用5成以上"},{"start":10677.176,"end":10705.049,"text":"現在它的價格 我要請教你再生水的每度大概多少錢那個以那個鳳山來講它大概是18塊18港橋大概是會到35塊35塊那很多的大廠都在港橋橋頭科學園區以及男子產業園區好 要30塊那你現在一般的供應用水一度多少錢一般的供應用水水價差不多12塊好"},{"start":10706.158,"end":10709.986,"text":"加上耗水費的14 零五個廠商你會選是什麼"},{"start":10715.37,"end":10743.23,"text":"那基本上這個耗水費是有針對於說不同的這個用戶的級距若是它回收率太低的話它的費率會更高有1700家用水大戶都是工業大戶對不對所以耗水費它對工業大戶也有產生去輸出力另外的它這個再生水的比例也符合這個也要按照這個規定那他們怎麼辦基本上你的供不應求市長"},{"start":10745.731,"end":10761.702,"text":"我們會第一個會請內政部加速那剛剛所提到的那個16座的這個再生水廠的建置之外除此之外因為他不是廠建完他就可以供水因為他要收集到都市的所謂的集中性 據我了解生產進場的進度遠比他們設廠的進度還慢"},{"start":10765.405,"end":10781.407,"text":"他們用戰爭水的時候還沒有供水啊你們給他用位以籌謀知道這個狀況如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸否則你這個沒有辦法完成達成這個對高科技廠商或者這個用水大戶的這個戰爭水的供應"},{"start":10782.948,"end":10800.472,"text":"這部分我想請市長協調一下內政部 國土署 協調一下科學園區管理局相關於園區的治水防洪的作為應該有一個統一的主管機關由經濟部來督導 來協調"},{"start":10803.873,"end":10830.691,"text":"另外因為你們是治水專家嘛國科會不見得治水專家但是國科會所管的科學園區裡面的這個防洪治水也至關重要科學園區不能有淹水的問題所以你應該拉高層級由經濟部的這個水利專家經濟部水利署來針對各園區管理局科學園區另外針對這個再淹水的部分怎麼去檢討它的這個供應的問題另外這個"},{"start":10834.127,"end":10862.216,"text":"污水這個下水道啊污水下水道在內政部我也想請教一下過去都會區啊六都的都會區沒有問題但是六都裡面非都會區啊比方說我的選區是六都裡面高雄市裡面非都會區比方說從這個橋頭以北路竹永安這個彌陀子關比較海線的地方都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃了這部分這個內政部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":10863.359,"end":10888.948,"text":"都計區內我們大概就是依照那個各縣政府提報的計畫來配合來協助來以補助執行至於非都地區目前我們行政院也在討論如何對非都地區的這些聚落室來做一個處理這個目前行政院在研議當中你知道我也想在鹿竹有一個蓋一個這個再生水場但是他沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統他就沒有辦法蓋再生水場"},{"start":10891.537,"end":10920.336,"text":"這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦那當然這個有跟量的問題啦如果那個沾水場實在量很少的時候其實它是完全不符成本的它可能後來算在水價廠商中的用不齊建構好污水、雨水、下水道系統才能有足夠的量嘛那你看我的選區全部都是沒有任何污水、下水道的建設規劃甚至沒有開辦這部分中央要協調地方來提出計畫所以我們再跟高雄市長再來討論好 謝謝"},{"start":10922.218,"end":10937.187,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請鄭正前委員做詢答謝主席 我想請一下賴長賜 謝謝賴市長"},{"start":10948.569,"end":10967.535,"text":"市長好謝謝主席今天特別安排一個防洪抗旱的一個計畫專報因為你本來就是這方面的一個專家那我想說首先先關心一下就是目前石門水庫到新竹鐵通道目前進度如何進度是超前的大概有相近30"},{"start":10970.749,"end":10995.282,"text":"30%左右OK 超前是因為我們往後延了一年嘛我們本來是115年超前不是往後延一年那往後延一年的部分以後我們是還考慮到包括一些物價啦的一個上漲還有包括我們現金流量不足因為現在的預算是有限的所以說你說基本上現在這個狀態是按照115年的進度就已經是超前了嗎"},{"start":10998.69,"end":11016.765,"text":"這個據我了解他應該可以稍微提前完工可以提前完工提前完工是按照116年的一個延後計畫是可以提前完工是這個意思嗎116年他是計畫期程那我們希望說依照比較計畫的期程來提前大概可以提前到什麼時候"},{"start":11018.732,"end":11033.802,"text":"大概116年左右116年 上半年嗎應該我們會希望在上半年 假如完工的話他會有一些比較顯著的效益因為一般我們缺水會在上半年的時候發生那我在想說"},{"start":11034.982,"end":11062.324,"text":"除了這個部分我們持續在追蹤這個進度之外因為這整個珍珠川的計畫其實算是一個好的計畫可是要怎麼樣把它落實是重要的那我想說在針對這個新竹的防災及備援水井的建置工程這邊的時候之前有特別提到要增加17口備援井已經完工了沒有13口的這個備援水井這個在109年跟110年之後已經完成了"},{"start":11063.024,"end":11080.176,"text":"那這個部分包括舊的部分現在都已經提前啟用現在保熱水庫可以蓄水率是蠻酷的有一部分是在我們透過地瓢水跟地下水聯合運用的結果理解所以說我們這17口井是包含之前的14口嗎"},{"start":11082.709,"end":11108.604,"text":"對 包含原本的十字口總共是17口井嘛 對不對那我想問一下因為我們現在這17口井的時候每日最多是供3.2萬噸嘛我看所有資料是這樣在寫可是我們當時在十字口井的時候呢我們當時就擔心到地層下陷的問題所以在千甲地區這邊的時候會造成地層下陷所以包括影響到那個投錢溪大橋68快速道路"},{"start":11109.284,"end":11129.307,"text":"然後台鐵、縱貫線、國道1號、高速公路等等他們橋墩的狀態所以對於這個部分的時候我們在使用這個備援井的部分有沒有什麼特別的一個限制使用備援井的部分第一個就是不要因為我提前使用備援井然後對於地表水或是農業灌溉用水可能會有影響"},{"start":11130.387,"end":11146.596,"text":"那第二個部分是其實這些配顏水井既然我們鑿在那裡我們就是評估過他對於地層下限不會有問題的都不會有問題即使每天抽很長的時間都不會有問題基本上我們會做一個所謂的安全抽取量的控制"},{"start":11147.947,"end":11175.766,"text":"OK 好 那這個沒有問題因為我在想說在新竹這個區域當中的時候其實大家對於這個供水的狀態其實是有點擔心的那因為那個我們按照那個DSET就是我們就是國科會下面的一個研究機構科學民主與社會研究中心他所提出來狀態是他認為因為未來先進製程會因為半導體產業的一個途徑式的需求會在2036年缺水"},{"start":11176.607,"end":11202.099,"text":"我想市長應該知道這個狀態對不對那個報告我有看過那個報告所引用的數字可能他研究的期間是在我們百年大旱之前那我們百年大旱之後剛剛委員所詢問到兩個重大工程包括所謂的聯通管包括蝙蝠水井這一些都是百年大旱之後我們就緊急提出來的趨利水資源計畫形勢已經不一樣了第一個"},{"start":11203.76,"end":11216.011,"text":"目前半寶體不管是新建中的或是運作中的先進的製程用水我們各個區域都是供給大於需求供給大於需求不會有問題"},{"start":11217.111,"end":11240.865,"text":"所以第二個部分因為半導體高科技的廠商他承諾加入RE100所以他新建的這個廠區依照我們再生水資源發展條例他必須要使用一定比例的再生水而目前我們看到的不管是在新竹或是在高雄地區他承諾使用的比例都是遠高於法規的比例"},{"start":11241.721,"end":11258.215,"text":"那除此之外的話我們加速了包括台水公司19條的備沿幹管還有包括我們海水淡化廠這些蓋了之後事實上即便面對百年大旱的情境也都不會有問題不會蓄水率只有3%"},{"start":11261.277,"end":11275.704,"text":"因為你剛剛講的其實很清楚因為你剛又提到一個海淡廠的部分因為新竹有建海淡廠那因為新竹建海淡廠一天10萬公噸的狀態剛好跟寶山二期台積電就是二奈米廠的量是一樣的"},{"start":11276.784,"end":11300.962,"text":"因為台積電這邊是9.7萬每一天所以說我們當時就會在想說海淡廠這邊可能跟台積電用水量是有相關的可是我想請教次長你知道在晶圓廠當中的時候它的用水當中的結構它需要有很大量的一個超純淨水這超純淨水的部分你知道它要用到多少的一個它使用水量的占比嗎"},{"start":11301.983,"end":11324.484,"text":"它使用水量的占比在製程的部分差不多是將近七成五左右七成六這圖上面這邊有很清楚狀態那因為整個先進製程當中的時候它的超純水的占比需要用到76%那我們這邊提到了有很多的再生水的狀態跟海淡水的部分它基本上都不能夠用的"},{"start":11324.864,"end":11344.756,"text":"所以它必須要用到水庫的一個原本的自然水的狀態所以我們到時候這邊的時候是用一個大水庫的概念的時候讓海淡水跟再生水都用在消費上面還是要怎麼樣去做一個調整第一個"},{"start":11345.905,"end":11368.373,"text":"假設你剛剛講的這個高科技的用水是10萬噸左右他第一個他自己廠內的一直循環佔了三分之一那其他的三分之二由外部的水來補給那外部的水來補給的話事實上再生水的使用在即便是台南的先進製程都證實是沒有問題的"},{"start":11372.011,"end":11389.813,"text":"你說再生水的部分在台南的先進製程證實是沒有問題是哪一個先進製程他們自己也建了兩萬噸的再生水廠來運用所以這個部分是沒有問題的至於說海水淡化的部分過去"},{"start":11390.273,"end":11406.053,"text":"他們擔心所謂的微量的捧的元素那這個捧的元素也因為科技的發展跟進步它可以去去除或是在製程上面它可以去做調節但是我還是要跟委員講我們做水這些供水的工程"},{"start":11407.014,"end":11423.345,"text":"不是只為了高科技廠商使用我們是要讓整個區域裡面就如同委員所說的大系統大水庫的部分可以穩定那它在穩定的一個情況之下的話產業也可以發展民生的用水也可以穩定這是我們的目標"},{"start":11424.502,"end":11441.096,"text":"OK那我覺得這邊我要特別問到一個狀態因為在今年1月份的時候就是當時在刪減凍結預算的時候水利署這邊有特別提到的狀態是說因為它會減少100口的備用水井的啟用調查請問現在情況還是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11443.393,"end":11461.739,"text":"因為這114年的總預算我們大概被刪減了將近23億左右那這些所謂的剛剛的備用全國的備用水準這不是只有新竹市而已我們本來希望加速來完成加速來調查"},{"start":11462.839,"end":11472.631,"text":"那這個因為預算的縮減的關係我們期程必須要重新再做檢查那100口調查的狀態是預計大概會有多少井是可以去開鑿的"},{"start":11475.562,"end":11498.858,"text":"這個就是我們要做調查的一個目的因為我在看到一下我們之前所有的相關的一個預算的部分因為在整個水利署的預算比去年增加了204.4億增加百分之一點百分之100.8%那麼在第三幕的一個水利建設跟保育管理經費當中的時候呢比去年增加202億多了113%那麼在第四節當中的那個"},{"start":11505.722,"end":11531.493,"text":"河川海岸及排水環境營造這個部分的也比去年增加了66.4%其中跟地下水保育及水文觀測計畫裡面下面的備用水井規劃調查及雙北地區建置計畫只有3億元所以我想知道說你剛剛提到說整個經濟部被刪了23億的時候有多少會反映在這個地方會影響到這個部分"},{"start":11532.333,"end":11557.382,"text":"影響事實上蠻大的雖然說114年水利署的預算比113年還多他主要是第一個他是要投資未來第二個部分他是要去解決113年連續三個大颱風所造成的這些的災害所以我特別關注在一個就是備援警的這個部分因為"},{"start":11558.682,"end":11581.178,"text":"經濟部這邊提出來的狀態是說因為被山跟洞的狀態所以影響到備援井的部分所以會影響到整個抗旱的一個量能所以我對這部分想說這麼多2000多億的一個經濟部預算裡面只有3億是跟這個有關的可是他竟然用這個部分的時候來表示說會影響到整個的抗旱的一個計畫"},{"start":11582.139,"end":11598.879,"text":"所以針對這個部分我想說你把這個三億到時候會怎麼樣受影響會對於這些備援警這一百口備援警的狀態你給本席一個很詳細的狀態因為我很難從整個兩千多億的預算當中去影響到這三億的部分"},{"start":11599.7,"end":11621.36,"text":"然後3的部分又非常的少我們在一輪二輪的時候對於整個檢列數都非常的低而且真的有影響的狀況是凍結的部分凍結的部分你們提出說明就可以所以我比較難去理解說水利署說這一百口抗旱井會影響到抗旱的一個量能所以我想請市長這邊給我本席很清楚的一個狀態"},{"start":11622.441,"end":11640.406,"text":"因為他本身所佔的預算就很低我們又沒有刪那動的部分的時候你們提出來狀態應該就可以解決所以我不太能夠去理解為什麼這一百口被援警的調查會影響到整個抗旱的那個量能這資料我會送給委員那第二個部分是"},{"start":11641.687,"end":11662.703,"text":"那麼大的預算 其實每個預算他都有一個工作計劃 這個每個工作計劃都有他的需要性另外一個部分 剛剛我們沒有討論到的因為在經濟部的部分 坦白說我們整個經濟部因為在經濟部裡面被刪的部分已經算是非常的少了 我們在一輪當中的時候檢列數只有少少的"},{"start":11665.049,"end":11687.956,"text":"只有少少的一筆而已齁 其實非常的少啦所以有時候那個關鍵的少數對關鍵的工作就沒問題 所以我想知道說這個這麼兩千多億的預算當中的三億當中在備援警當中的時候 他的關鍵到哪裡去你請給本席一個很清楚的一個說法好不好好 好 沒有問題好 謝謝 我們現在請陳昌明委員做詢答"},{"start":11699.06,"end":11705.861,"text":"主席好 首先有請我們農業部我們的黃處長黃處長市委員好黃處長好今年我們專案在討論防洪抗旱但是我看農業部的報告裡面有農業水庫要增加清一苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座"},{"start":11730.294,"end":11743.019,"text":"一共有三座一共有三座,算很內行,很快清楚狀況哪三座?明德、大埔還有一個是?"},{"start":11750.732,"end":11769.177,"text":"比较小你都忘记了,你看大不看小,叫做建坛水库,在造桥。我期盼了很久,以前农业水库要找水利子他都不管,他说是农业部的,今天我终于等到你了,看你们的报告有增加了一条。"},{"start":11770.077,"end":11786.755,"text":"就是農業水庫要清理那這三個水庫大埔水庫還有明德水庫還有建壇水庫啊現在主管單位是在哪裡我要好好找到他要好好的去研究是我們農水省啦我會帶你去會勘"},{"start":11790.239,"end":11807.807,"text":"尤其大埔水庫是鄰近的科學延期竹蘭的科學延期苗栗縣兩個重症 投溫症跟竹蘭症所以那個真的要強那個汙泥到夏天的時候很臭啊今天你們提出計畫能不能幫我改善完成"},{"start":11808.601,"end":11831.414,"text":"那至於免得水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過那時全都在水歷史那邊你們農業部分的很少所以這樣本來要清一結果要清不清的樣子看起來是勉強而清我希望啊次長這個幫我加強改善好不好好的委員這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力的來執行"},{"start":11832.634,"end":11841.799,"text":"這說完我會持續的追蹤蔡市長我再帶你去苗栗一下謝謝再來請我們的經濟部次我們的賴市長賴市長"},{"start":11851.383,"end":11870.346,"text":"委員好賴次長好你當了次長隨意使跟國營事業都是你在監督管理的單位那我們高雄來的賴瑞榮委員非常優秀我非常欣佩但是關於"},{"start":11871.65,"end":11887.965,"text":"他說啊這次電價調整不調整是將來要留給新民意啊我想說我算幾年以後什麼叫做新民意信從他叫做新民意不信從就不是新民意嘛"},{"start":11888.971,"end":11909.47,"text":"他講的也明喔這次所謂不調整電價是為了要留給市民你不要這樣炒作啊南部的也不要有這樣難易的觀念啦跟委員會說明我們在審議委員會的話完全沒有討論到這個議題他講的很清純就是要留給大罷免用的"},{"start":11910.211,"end":11936.991,"text":"不增加定位如果定位一增加的時候民眾會反感他為了大罷免案所以你們執政黨不敢調整定價我感覺你們都沒有贊成是因為關稅的措施不敢做任何一場判現在對於各國對於經濟的前景甚至為物價的波動委員會的審查任何的擔憂還是你所指定的人你大了解"},{"start":11938.328,"end":11945.494,"text":"增資2500億你們用增資說不是補貼的再增加500億3000億你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1600億你們5000億的資本額已經給你們4600億在那一邊了怎麼會歸得那麼厲害啊"},{"start":11957.985,"end":11978.883,"text":"我們是要面對問題我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦當然裡面還要再去了解一下你也好好了解一下你剛剛過來我不好意思逼問了太緊但是不要有這種觀念為了大罷免不調整電價讓百姓覺得它是一種恩惠不是這樣去處理事情沒有 台電的負債比已經達到93%了"},{"start":11982.866,"end":12000.295,"text":"你看 即便台電公司員工非常的努力這個狀況還是要改善都為了一時的利益 政黨的利益不要這麼做啊 我真的警告啦習近平沒有成功的時候 他要怎麼辦大家做事情要合理公平公正嘛"},{"start":12001.656,"end":12013.176,"text":"不要這樣亂講不是他亂講因為他是我尊重的委員可能他要選高雄市長我幫他宣傳一下好不好再來我們水利市"},{"start":12016.953,"end":12034.673,"text":"恭喜啊,林市長,我看你報告寫得很好,有水的時候無災,用水有度,再來你說水清衣油非常的完美,台灣真的是一個美好的社會。"},{"start":12035.974,"end":12063.675,"text":"但是我只是說我為省議員到現在幾十年看水利局到水利市真的把主要的河川出要河川都整治的確確實實不錯我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多那你今天提出來我非常欣賞的一句話就是怎樣全流域的治理"},{"start":12064.395,"end":12086.024,"text":"就是整條街要安裝,洪水來的時候要怎樣去釋散掉那位處長你現在是變成導師我怎麼特別說這樣,我今天要特別提到,我一直在提但是不曉得是中匯的欠缺,離地山上是屬於農業部的"},{"start":12087.503,"end":12114.236,"text":"那個裡面是在管理的那一個地方我們比較看不到在深山裡面再來深山一出來到一般的河流的時候就開始要整治這裡面也有農業部的水保室但是在這裡我一直在看剛剛你們講到淡化廠賴市長你淡化廠你們水利市一共騙了多少億算都幾千億"},{"start":12119.864,"end":12129.408,"text":"一個廠差不多是300多億包括建設包括營運那建設的部分那因為我們是20年所以我一直在講我還在研究這個問題"},{"start":12135.368,"end":12162.725,"text":"講到南部的滯洪池南部的滯洪池裡面少了一樣什麼叫做滯洪池要加湖流水這樣才有真正的效應因為我看過湖流水我這些年看不起這樣東西結果你們歷史做的湖流水缺水的時候真的很有需要你要往下去存水抽出來所以說彰化廠你不只把這個湖流水滯洪池做在那邊"},{"start":12163.726,"end":12191.902,"text":"你依照你的流域下來看它的那個高度怎麼樣你們要去排像你一潭水庫要供應給我們縣里跟通宵的結果你們都農業水都沒有用我一直在強調一件事情那個丘陵地的凹地你就去把它看這個水路怎麼走你們不要啦把它當成住房池又加了浮流水你們反而不準"},{"start":12192.822,"end":12215.549,"text":"阿咱水包括溶水使得在灌溉水 你們說喔 溶液用水浪費很多你就在海邊靠近最低的地方把那些水灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方土地要買你也要買 要吃你也要吃因為真正要改潔之道在這個地方尤其"},{"start":12218.055,"end":12230.326,"text":"廖處長 你在水利市的時候還做了一個開花裡面要有什麼排水流量就是水源都把它存起來 水要湊出來 你就要這樣啦你只要檔劃廠蓋那個整層面不然台灣人做千福之國 那裡面起來 東西不準"},{"start":12237.952,"end":12264.56,"text":"又能防治防洪水災來最少你有消化的地方你這樣在地上活你也真不...啊我們現在怎樣飲水就是地方自己的排水溝管理不好像高雄哪裡有溝我來做水管我集中在這裡把它蓋掉你那普通的水溝不清當然會淹水啦這是有轉型跟沒轉型天天都在講自己有多好"},{"start":12265.509,"end":12279.711,"text":"要了解經濟災,我現在還說依照這樣,自防池加浮力水,自防池加浮力水大膽的去做真的台灣才會不缺水,才會說你們有水無災"},{"start":12281.033,"end":12304.748,"text":"用水的時候大家高興用一點,不覺得怎麼樣,不要急急急急。當然像今年,我相信你水過了,你要注意防洪的問題,今年沒有旱災。但是我剛剛講的,我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣,丘陵地到處哪裡都可以做我們的自容池,要加湖流水啊。"},{"start":12306.081,"end":12313.956,"text":"像桃園你看到很多的水塘災你再找辦法改進做湖流水嘛那澳大利亞這次就要挑出來"},{"start":12315.023,"end":12342.955,"text":"水源不斷我是醜人但是我摸過這個地方天天在跑天天被罵罵到有血淚這樣一點姿勢我不知道會不會痛你告訴我謝謝委員指導的意見多元的水資源的供給就是我們的政策目標而委員所提到方案裡面涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分在經濟部的地方中心針對於九大的地下水分區水文地址都有很好的調查"},{"start":12343.755,"end":12354.425,"text":"也是因為這些調查包括水利署下游的地下水的調查所以我們在百年大旱每找一口井它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標但是浮流水是很好的一個水源但是要看地質狀況"},{"start":12366.036,"end":12387.287,"text":"所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地適用,然後多元開發,還有倍元我告訴你,我告訴你幾十年了,你今天要告訴我現在先去處長,我通宵的秋蓮地,縣里的秋蓮地那個地方我說你們去做一個做王子水庫兼美化的作用"},{"start":12387.967,"end":12412.086,"text":"那根本會改變當地的一個休閒產業,這點你能答應我現在你就提出這個結尾,我自己跟你們說,我自己跟你們說現在海地都沒有錢,都幾千億都用在擔保這個就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的好啦,次長講得那麼早,你想什麼計畫我只要你把我們實現當是你們承諾要做的啦"},{"start":12412.726,"end":12436.687,"text":"你們只說趴著,水沒有流逝,打井下來又抽不到水,都是表面的河口的崩潰啊我是很真心的講,好不好?你只是你的領域市長,我帶你們去看怎麼去做因為真的會做下來很漂亮,當地修行觀光產業會活化"},{"start":12439.301,"end":12458.975,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導不是是啊 阿市長你要怎麼請誰來做喔 我要找你來看喔 好嗎好 要多時間 請委員長指導沒有沒有 你們稍稍給我回答一下我是跟中共事情很緊的人好不好 拜託一下這幾個問題解決 我頭就不會變得那麼白了 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請"},{"start":12467.076,"end":12468.517,"text":"中午我们不休息延长开会时间到巡打结束"},{"start":12486.85,"end":12495.638,"text":"主席在堂委員先進列席的政府金融市場官員會長官員夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部耐次長和水利署的林署長也請農業部的黃次長和漁業署的陳副署長"},{"start":12503.424,"end":12531.653,"text":"好 委員好次長好 署長好 副署長好這個漁溫設施配合黃紅要合理認定那麼設施農業可以減少災損那推廣以租代購好 首先請教我們的賴署長那個河川地可以設置漁溫嗎河川地經過評估在我們的管理辦法裡面我們漁溫經過許可之後是可以的是可以的經過水理分析無妨礙河防安全者在河川管理法第62條"},{"start":12533.41,"end":12561.423,"text":"好 那個黃市長你知道我們屏東喔 很多河川地 現在我們台灣是黃溪型的啦冰箱是沒水喔 那河川地喔 很多農民在利用啦那副署長 副署長 陳副署長是有交情過你去屏東嘛 是屏東 屏北地區是不是很多漁民的 漁民是設在河川地上面是冰箱是我們水利單位在管理嘛好 那我請問一下水利署漁民的所有設施都被允許設在河川地裡面嗎"},{"start":12566.856,"end":12582.567,"text":"只要剛剛特別談到無防礙我們水流是可以設置的沒有問題在去年的9月13號就是為了能夠讓離港地區的養殖漁業用地那樣合法申請嘛他們也去登記了但是呢都遇到一個問題"},{"start":12586.311,"end":12614.204,"text":"河川橋 都說你這個坩仔啦 放鋼管啦 底部的坩仔啦一個很明顯的問題 你們就知道肥料喔 飼料啦 飼料在餘溫旁邊 它一定有炸 因為怕弄壞嘛但是呢 你們說 那個是行水區所以呢 飼料它不能炸 能有蚊子 蚊子把它封起來 怕人家吐掉但是那就沒有辦法達到你那個飼料間可以防禦的效果啊 怎麼解決 有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":12617.094,"end":12640.863,"text":"因為在這個高灘地裡面如果加蓋類似這種庫房的建築物的話我們都希望它有透水性有透水性那你要市民弄到危起來那恐怕就是那你市民沒危就好,那池子就斷了所以這個有一些技術我們盡量是能夠透水的方式來處理來,次長來,次長有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關的協助農業部門餘溫來認定"},{"start":12644.504,"end":12664.372,"text":"現在基本上所謂的工具間只要在一定的規模不造成妨礙水流的狀態之下但是事實上我們現在七合分數去現場看的很多是超過我們諸位想像的我瞭解那一些的部分對於水流是沒有錯我完全支持所以我希望說認定標準要一致"},{"start":12665.172,"end":12685.143,"text":"你要知道這個漁民會活動比高 為什麼他會失業 我也不知道了解齁 所以我希望說次長請指示我們水利署配合我們漁政農政單位下去做合理的認定好嗎 標準把它抓出來那漁民才知道說什麼可以做什麼不可以做 好不好 可以齁好 沒有問題接下來我們請黃次長來來黃次長 風災農損怎麼解"},{"start":12692.492,"end":12716.027,"text":"氣候變遷我們只能靠政府的現金救助嗎我們也會強化我們的農業的韌性所以基本上在一些田間管理還有這個作物的這個焊作或者是輪作的這個部分我們都會來加強我們的輔導好謝謝 其實你們有一個做法除了現金救助之外你們農業部做了一個調查其實呢一般來講我們的現金救助平均每年只有31億"},{"start":12717.749,"end":12728.505,"text":"農業損失大概在121億其實大部分是農民呢他七到八成是自己要承擔所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛對不對是除了農業保險還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損"},{"start":12730.68,"end":12750.513,"text":"是不是我們透過設施農業對不對 氣溫如果露天的容易受損嘛 如果室內的養殖比較不會如果你是溫室的設施 它可以擋風可以避雨還可以防蟲是不是這樣子所以農業部有要鼓勵設施農業來減少包括天災不管是旱災水災的這樣的一個損害嗎"},{"start":12753.685,"end":12778.787,"text":"對於這個方面,我們一直都有在鼓勵好,但是問題來了,來下一頁為什麼農民他們比較不願轉從設施農業呢?因為他的建築成本確實很高對,建築成本很高,你馬上知道,我要跟你請教的那農民沒有負擔,那怎麼解決?我們的農民就是有地有技術,他有流動力,但是他沒有資金所以我們一直,我一直在推廣農業部呢用我們本來對農民給他貸款,通稅貸三分之一啦,對不對?"},{"start":12779.588,"end":12806.546,"text":"但是三分之一也算是啦所以我就覺得說有沒有可能未來的農業會轉向農企那農企本身它的經營方式它有能力去做貸款的設定那是不是說地主農民提供土地農企業去辦你專案貸款興建設施農民還可以進來承租這個設施來使用像小黃瓜啦這個茄子啦或者說其他的檳榔廢原轉做的設施農業部支不支持"},{"start":12807.571,"end":12826.431,"text":"對於委員這樣子把這個由這個農企業的這個部分事實上確實是也是一個選項那不過跟目前的這個我們台灣的小農的這個部分的話可能還是有一些落差但是我們願意來思考沒有錯台灣的農業是小農為主但是現在變成是老農小農變老農了 青農沒有地"},{"start":12828.933,"end":12848.667,"text":"也沒有資金但是呢 今天老農有地 親農有勞動力如果透過農企業的介入 透過 您是管農業金庫跟農金署嗎獨島啦另外一個市長獨島另外一個市長獨島 我記得是你 今天特別問你這一題那我今天選錯是不是另外一個市長是哪一位市長是"},{"start":12851.021,"end":12873.494,"text":"胡赤是胡赤在負責是吧好那不過這個事情我會再跟你們部長講簡單兩個結論請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培並評估由農企業來協助興建由我們農業部以租代購的方式來協助他們那也金剛那個署長也還有我們次長也下去了就是經濟部水利署請就實況研擬適當規範輔導我們的水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":12880.435,"end":12883.156,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請參議員做詢答好 謝謝主席那我們是不是先請經濟部次長來 次長"},{"start":12910.953,"end":12937.554,"text":"好市長市長那今天事實上我們討論整個議題那我想先就一個比較初步的議題就是我們關於再生能源的兌售費率那事實上我們知道從所謂再生能源發展條例在2009年正式刪讀然後在2010年這是這應該是馬英九執政的時候當年的費率是11塊到12塊9"},{"start":12940.66,"end":12956.193,"text":"已經將近13塊那後來當然就逐年調降那一直到了我們看這一個圖表到了2020年的時候正式降到3.9塊那到了今年2025年是降到了3.5至5.7這個區段"},{"start":12958.655,"end":12980.794,"text":"好所以我們看到整個太陽能的一個再生能源的一個發展隨著他技術的一個進步那以及他的發電效能的提高是讓短壽費率也是逐年的調降那我想要請教的是說那如果2010年最早期的這樣的一個太陽能的設備這個短壽費率勒11塊的到底到什麼時候才會結束"},{"start":12985.473,"end":13010.973,"text":"現在的話就你們的了解他這個20年到期就會結束了日後隨著剛剛委員所說的成本降低那很多的所謂的發電廠商或是綠能發電廠商他就可以職工到市場他不需要透過這些的制度了好沒關係那是另外的那我想要問的是說如果他20年到了到了之後他可以再要求續約嗎"},{"start":13017.784,"end":13037.531,"text":"他執照20年 20年到了之後他如果要續約他要先申請展延他的執照那每次是10年那到時候看看台電公司有沒有電力需求如果要續約就跟台電公司續約不過現在來講新的太陽光電大部分都是賣給需要綠電的人大部分都賣到業界去了"},{"start":13038.031,"end":13056.991,"text":"現在的會賣給綠電但是如果以當年11塊的未必會賣給綠電所以我要問的就是說他們如果許願要展延的話他會回到現在的3.5塊還是還在11塊的水平會回到現在的3.5塊因為他重新開始了重新開始嘛他只用展延"},{"start":13058.512,"end":13079.185,"text":"這個要確定喔我要講的重點就是這樣因為早期的太陽能的准售費率非常的高那如果你還讓他用11塊的展延的話這樣是不合理的 完全不對的不會啦好我這一塊確認那第二個就是說如果要申請展延的話我們可不可以要求他替換太陽能板"},{"start":13081.26,"end":13103.855,"text":"這個要看他我們可以我們希望他換但是通常他那個之前20年的成本已經回收他發電成本是非常低的所以他看看他到時候的市場狀況他有沒有意願但是這個我要請你們去評估因為早年的太陽能板的發電效率跟現在比起來差很多是的所以如果你可以用早年的太陽能板"},{"start":13104.535,"end":13130.46,"text":"然後去要求他更換才可以再給他另外一個展延的等收費率而且等收費率要符合現在的我覺得這件事情反而是對於台電才是符合經濟效益的我們可以來評估好不好這件事要加速評估好不好不要拖太久因為雖然20年還沒有到但是我想今年已經2025了嘛如果你這樣看起來大概這兩三年會有陸續出現到期的狀況"},{"start":13132.96,"end":13152.846,"text":"所以愛慰與籌謀應該要先要先有一些因應好不好好那我們接下來再請我們次長是不是先留著我們再請農業部黃次長以及我們國科會沒有國科會不用那個內政部國土管理署副署長來我要請教我們現在在於"},{"start":13161.55,"end":13177.004,"text":"外省鼎州的這個布沙計畫這個我想次長很清楚因為次長在水利署的時候事實上這案我一直在追那外省鼎州的布沙計畫原本他是要用在布袋山港清淤的那些嗨沙"},{"start":13177.985,"end":13198.118,"text":"要從布袋山崗用船運把它帶到外山頂洲這是最原始的計畫但是這個船運的運費是龐大的所以我們後面我們用一個替代方式就是說現在布袋山崗為了蓋海淡廠所以他們就是直接把這些土方去在海淡廠做填海造陸"},{"start":13199.499,"end":13211.184,"text":"這沒有問題嘛 那外傘頂州的問題要怎麼解決呢我在過年前 我開了一個地方的協調會那我就是主要是說 是不是協調包括漁業署 內政部這邊趕快來變更計畫就是直接從外傘頂州的東側直接做抽砂的方式 然後抽到外傘頂州的西側然後把整個那個砂園把它墊高"},{"start":13225.67,"end":13250.733,"text":"墊高之後就防止海浪那些海浪打過去就把他沖刷下去就是說要把它墊高的這個動作非常的重要那透過抽砂的相對成本最低那我想要請教我們相關的部會因為我們當時我都有邀請你們來召開我們地方的公聽會那這個案件的整體的變更計畫那目前這個程序是走到哪邊了"},{"start":13251.864,"end":13261.217,"text":"第一個整體的外山警州的保護計畫水利署絕對會持續來做不是只有全數的方案"},{"start":13261.823,"end":13283.596,"text":"那剛剛委員所說的沙園的部分 前述的方案確實如此但是依照這個新的需求 包括新的情勢的變化從委員所講的外山頂中的東側去抽沙之外 另外可能河口的部分可以多抽沙 這些也是可以那我們會請水利署來做相關計畫的這個修正 因為"},{"start":13284.236,"end":13302.001,"text":"最後準博的是在內政部因為它是海岸的主管機關市長我知道站在經濟部的角度你們會支持那現在整個變更計畫因為它是行政院的一個上位計畫那要變更這個計畫是不是要從內政部這邊所以是不是國土署這邊了解這個進度嗎"},{"start":13305.556,"end":13322.135,"text":"那這個 報委員今天 因為這個不在今天議題內我是會後 好沒關係 他們就再回覆委員你們回去回覆一下 說這個進度因為從過年前到現在已經過了三個月了那我們想要趕在今年年中前把計畫變更完畢那這樣至少可以趕在"},{"start":13323.055,"end":13350.753,"text":"看年底因為年底他必須要訊息結束年底或者是明年可以執行好不好所以這個要緊好那我們再問一下也是延續剛剛類似的一個問題請教我們這個經濟部賴次長那整個我剛剛講的那布袋這邊填海造陸填海造陸未來就是要興建這個海水氮化廠那這個填海造陸的計畫目前目前進行到什麼階段"},{"start":13352.298,"end":13378.236,"text":"我們今年大概六月底之前會把相關的環說書啊去送到那個環境部去進行環境影響評估的審查實施作業進入到程序裡面所以今年六月會送到環境部對對那你們預估在什麼時候可以正式開始來進行這個計畫如果以你們正常的判斷的話"},{"start":13380.083,"end":13393.275,"text":"因為這個環境影響評估的審查我們必須要尊重專業委員不過過去相關的案例大概是一年左右的這個審查的話我們是預估說只要說一年能夠通過審查後面的話大概是六"},{"start":13395.236,"end":13411.372,"text":"所以我們現在是期待這一案是不是在就是如果這樣抓起來大概在明年的大概在明年的年中左右可以把這個環評來完成審查如果沒有什麼意外的話大概是第四季啦明年的第四季我們希望說"},{"start":13413.117,"end":13432.931,"text":"以中為始嘛我們希望因為這個海蛋廠對嘉義非常重要我們希望在121年之前就可以完成這些的建設好我覺得所有的工程的細節啦以及要協調的我們應該都要掌握好不要去讓它拖到了好不好好謝謝市長好謝謝蔡昭緯我們現在請葉元之委員做詢問"},{"start":13455.764,"end":13457.807,"text":"麻煩請經理部次長 謝謝賴次長委員好我剛剛有看您的詢問你是提到說我們現在的水費還不確定會不會漲對不對"},{"start":13475.6,"end":13502.498,"text":"那看評估報告我們總體專業的來審視之後再來說還不確定但因為這幾天那個水價要不要漲的消息已經滿天飛了我有看到有的報導是說水價平均漲幅兩成六三成四成都有還講說那個水價可能會影響到七百多萬戶這個是我看到的報導但我因為我這樣問的問題是因為我很怕他會跟那個電價"},{"start":13504.383,"end":13520.354,"text":"電價是現在確定上週是動漲嘛對吧可是因為現在的物價因為大家有一個預期的心態就認為說本來以為是電價會漲所以很多像一些餐廳啊或者是很多產業它都已經漲價了"},{"start":13521.775,"end":13535.761,"text":"他是一個反映一個預期心態然後結果現在動漲表示說店價不漲了不漲了可是很多餐廳漲了他預期漲上去之後他不會調降下來因為那個物價有僵固性"},{"start":13536.946,"end":13564.765,"text":"所以我是想要跟經濟部提醒一下像類似這樣的消息是不是可以等到確定的時候再對外說明不要造成大家的這種預期心理然後造成物價波動不知道可不可以這個當然是沒有問題的因為這個物價的波動影響我們的民生所以基本上我們也期待委員運用你的影響力因為這個媒體報導所刊的並不是我們的方案"},{"start":13569.407,"end":13590.575,"text":"因為是你們的影響力我們當然也會做這個部分因為我今天在委員會裡面說明了多次那我們也請台水公司包括水利署甚至我們國營國營司來一起就這個問題慎重的來檢討那當然還沒有檢討之前的話任何現在媒體的報導都不是我們的方案"},{"start":13591.789,"end":13619.47,"text":"好 第二個喔那個上週電價的那個委員會啊還包括那個經營部你們對外的說明你們是說那個電價台電虧損的原因是因為主要是因為物料是成本提高嘛 是不是是的是嗎但是最近好像我看那個相關的資料來比如說我們進口的煤炭啊還有天然氣啊他們的那個價格都修正到之前的水準了對吧都降下來了吧"},{"start":13622.072,"end":13644.531,"text":"現在我們電價審議委員會就所有的電的發電主要的燃料不管是電我現在看到全球主要天然氣的期貨價格還有進口的這個氣價的部分在2020之前是9塊錢到目前為止的話我們預估是用15.4塊錢來預估的"},{"start":13646.687,"end":13669.425,"text":"然後煤價的部分這2016到2020是80塊現在的話幾乎是120到130塊左右所以還在跟這個戰爭之前還是相對的高檔所以目前為止這個部分的這個價格還是蠻高的那我們現在台電所產生的累積到去年年底4229億的虧損完全是這幾年"},{"start":13674.777,"end":13703.626,"text":"這個非常出來然後我們吸收這個市長再來我再跟你請教另外一個議題就是現在因為大家現在關心就是美國他們可能會把我們列為就是骯髒十五國之一那我之前有問財政部財政部都一直沒有證實因為他說還不確定但是川普現在最新的說法是不管這是不是骯髒十五國只要被認為說有貿易障礙或者是有不對等關稅的話通通都會提出一些貿易的相關措施"},{"start":13704.347,"end":13723.403,"text":"那現在經濟部有針對我們可能受到的影響的產業有做盤點嗎請問一下我們現在比較容易受到產業有哪些基本上我們跟美國的合作是非常的密切的那現在所謂的我的問題很明確啦就是說你們現在盤點的我們可能會受到的產業有哪些"},{"start":13724.554,"end":13741.082,"text":"基本上因為他現在也沒有說明確哪一些的部分是怎麼樣我們密切的觀察比如說他現在已經講了像關稅就會調賞那當然你沒有評估過汽車業會不會受影響還有其他的汽車零組件會不會受影響都還沒嗎都還沒評估"},{"start":13742.95,"end":13757.958,"text":"有做相關情境的模擬跟方案的因應但是最終美國政府在4月2號我知道那所以現在現在評估比較有可能受到的產業影響的產業有哪些這個部分我們當然有全面性的一個檢討"},{"start":13759.739,"end":13783.045,"text":"不是啦,我在問你問題耶,不是你有在全面檢討,我知道你有檢討才問你嘛你現在受到影響的產業有哪些?就是那種委員說的啦,因為不確定的因素我們先講的話,那造成的預期心理,那不是造成一些不必要的恐慌嗎?不是,你這樣講我就覺得你好像沒評估耶,我剛剛看新聞好像說昨天沒有相關的部會還跟總統去做報告"},{"start":13784.09,"end":13812.35,"text":"但是今天好像你也講不太出來所以如果你講不太出來的話那你做報告那這個報告有什麼只是讓大家感覺你有做事但實際上有沒有做我們有評估有配套可是我跟委員說我光是在新聞上看到的都比你講的多了包括汽車產業可能媒體報導講說汽車產業可能不會受太大的影響但是有一些汽車零組件比如說有的分析師指出有22項都有受到影響他們講的都比你還要多"},{"start":13813.635,"end":13828.978,"text":"所以你到底是有評估還是沒評估是 確實是有的確實是有 那是 只是不能講是不是有這一些 我們最後看到這個4月2號出來的結果當然我們一系列的配套措施就會立刻公佈是不是 好好 謝謝"},{"start":13833.425,"end":13836.108,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":13850.62,"end":13863.017,"text":"我们现在请赖会员委员做询答赖会员委员赖会员委员不在我们现在请陈冠廷委员做询答陈冠廷陈冠廷委员不在我们现在请罗明才委员做询答罗明才罗明才委员不在"},{"start":13865.913,"end":13866.093,"text":"謝謝大家下會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}