{"error":false,"id":["165603"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165603,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165603","日期":"2025-11-19","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-36-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-19T11:11:32+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-19T11:26:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1df1730573b2c596b7e24dce8f91e16ee45c75d439e1a44ec7928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:11:32 - 11:26:34","會議時間":"2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會、個人資料保護委員會籌備處等就「太子集團涉詐案、跨部會防詐及打詐成效，以及參考新加坡打詐鞭刑入法之可行性評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.48784375,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.50659375,"end":42.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.70784375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.947843750000004,"end":48.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.360343750000006,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.67596875,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.750968750000006,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.77846875,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.36409375000001,"end":128.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.75346875,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.96159375000002,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.59284375000001,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.07096875000002,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.27659375000002,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.41971875000002,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.58409375000002,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.67534375000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.78846875000002,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":207.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.28534375,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.97659375,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.87096875,"end":215.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.10221875000002,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.22846875000002,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.91159375,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.81659375,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.03971875000002,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.73534375000003,"end":245.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.88159375,"end":254.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":268.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.25471875,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.46034375,"end":276.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.50659375000004,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.21534375000005,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.63659375000003,"end":284.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.07096875,"end":288.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.88096875,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.66096875,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.60971875,"end":299.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.83221875000004,"end":333.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.85221875,"end":372.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.32346875,"end":343.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.32659375000003,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.11971875,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.23346875000004,"end":351.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.21159375,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.29346875000005,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.99784375,"end":375.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.08596875,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.44784375,"end":383.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.67784375,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.71096875,"end":469.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.46159375,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.40471875000003,"end":471.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.56471875000005,"end":475.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.33221875000004,"end":479.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.40721875,"end":482.62221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.80784375,"end":485.912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所以我要問問兩位喔你們同意 邊形在台灣要研議上路嗎 廳長"},{"start":187.625,"end":206.676,"text":"我們可能要回溯去探討刑罰的目的是什麼刑罰是在身體刑的部分在我國比較討論比較採負面的看法可能有所謂的報仇性的一個性質我們是用矯正型的概念來取代這種硬抱型的思維嗎"},{"start":208.377,"end":219.464,"text":"而且在人權的面向上呢他是不是違反了國際兩公約也違反了進行酷刑公約嘛對不對就是司法院立場非常清楚我們絕對要審慎那部長呢"},{"start":224.399,"end":245.118,"text":"的確這個我們也徵詢過學者專家的意見 廣大社會意見當然政壇兩說都有啦但是的確這個這個變形這個是在世界上是逐漸不被因為這個是英國的對它殖民時期留下來的或者是有些國家可能基於宗教的理由他們還存在因為那個英國都已經老早就廢除掉了"},{"start":246.239,"end":267.058,"text":"我們認為說當然這個有一些的聲音但是我們也是認為這個可能有違反酷刑跟公正公約的疑慮另外事實上怎麼去執行那部分也非常的一個很多的執行安全上的問題"},{"start":269.76,"end":286.23,"text":"另外新加坡是不是說那個邊型要多用譬如說據我們所了解他是50歲以下的男性才能用而且還要身體檢查有辦法他有很多執行的門檻跟限制法律的要件這個都要從長積一謝謝兩位的回答我相對比較安心"},{"start":292.694,"end":311.24,"text":"也就是說我知道社會對於詐騙案件大家都痛心疾首 深痛誤覺包括本席我們在司法法治委員會這麼多的專案報告恐怕詐騙案類是我們所有專案報告的第一名代表所有不分黨派的立委都關心如何有效的來防範詐騙"},{"start":312.78,"end":333.331,"text":"但是如果迷信亂世用重點就是有效而去選擇了亂世用亂點我認為像邊行這種違反國際的人權公約讓台灣可能因此而人權走回頭路我們絕對要審慎的研議部長你要補充嗎你好像有話想要再說"},{"start":334.191,"end":343.56,"text":"的確這個詐欺就是全民公敵是民怨之所在這個我們都很 也造成我們司法人員包括執法人員最大的暗亮那這部分我想我們最近我們在11月13號也修法了加重出來回應民意的需求的確像我們那個高額的詐欺這部分我們也到7年以上加重刑責"},{"start":357.754,"end":377.155,"text":"那那個地板的那個加重的三年以上七年以下那個已經下降調到一百萬只要詐騙的金額到一百萬的門檻那這邊就會處罰另外我們在在那個對也規範了禁車的條款禁車的條款然後擴大對潛在詐欺被害人的保"},{"start":377.675,"end":387.601,"text":"還有那個要獲得減免一定要把調和解的金額在六個月以下達成和解要把前面要幾戶外面才能夠減免或者這部分我們再假釋的這部分我們的門檻又再提高那我們對這部分我們就具體求刑因為這些兆團直接是非常可惡所以絕對不能夠輕判所以我們也是要求檢察官一定要求重刑好"},{"start":401.629,"end":421.176,"text":"謝謝部長我給您非常充分的時間說明也就是從您的回答告訴我們政府對於詐騙案件從前端的預防到後端的重懲我們都想方設法在執行面的武器強化或是在法治面的健全是我們現在進行式而不是非常單一的從一個"},{"start":423.817,"end":438.466,"text":"最酷刑的邊形來作為一個上策的解方我想我們的立場是一樣所以我在這裡講我的立場針對邊形在台灣能不能上路應不應該上路這件事情我非常的保留我反對"},{"start":439.446,"end":456.689,"text":"我們台灣不能走人權的回頭路我們不能夠違反聯合國的兩公約甚至不能去違反禁止酷刑的公約以及剛剛部長所提到的在香港新加坡它的執行是針對50歲以下的男性有非常多的要件要達到所以說編刑的執行的標準本身"},{"start":457.29,"end":479.295,"text":"就很難一致這也是要去審酌以及到目前為止並沒有實證來證明說邊形能夠有效嚇阻犯罪就如同我剛剛前一頁的PTT告訴我們就是如果新加坡邊形是萬用的話他的治安可能排比會比台灣更好不是嗎下一頁"},{"start":481.471,"end":503.939,"text":"那我也要提醒邊行在台灣過去不論誰執政在馬英九執政的時候有民進黨的立委提案性侵要邊行立法院沒通過2017年小英總統執政的時候也有公民網路的提案酒駕要邊行政策上我們也沒有採納而現在2025年有立委的倡議我認為社會要擴大討論好 我想我們在場大家的立場我們要非常的明確"},{"start":510.427,"end":525.874,"text":"下一頁 詐騙打詐尚未成功政府仍需努力但是人權不能回頭下一個那今天剛剛我們講到詐騙是全球公敵跨國互助就顯得非常的重要下一頁"},{"start":528.199,"end":543.881,"text":"這個聯合國的報告也今天有非常多的委員再次引用太子集團這個案子就是符合聯合國這一個報告的主要的點出來的方向也就是跨國組織犯罪生態系的轉型"},{"start":544.842,"end":558.894,"text":"確實如此詐騙集團高度整合化企業化的運作太子集團就是這樣以及犯罪據點轉向無政府管控或非國家武裝團體控制的地區好柬埔寨也如同這個報告所"},{"start":560.535,"end":576.597,"text":"所以說太子集團的犯案確實符合了聯合國的這一個報告的事情但是讓我們看到的是既然詐騙是全球公敵跨國的司法互助就是必須"},{"start":577.919,"end":591.951,"text":"所以這個案子從美國向台灣提出示警我們加速來偵辦這不就是跨國的司法互助嗎我不曉得很多委員都罵說因為我們怎麼可以讓這個案子是美國來告訴我們我們才開始辦我認為這個"},{"start":595.583,"end":615.038,"text":"是很有問題的邏輯本來全球都在承擔這種跨國性組織性高度整合化的犯罪集團全球互相通報互相協助本來就再自然也不過了嘛部長我們有很多案子協助其他國家偵辦不是嗎"},{"start":615.94,"end":641.016,"text":"這個是就是國際合作 因為現在跨境的一個犯罪包括毒品 詐欺 洗錢這都是已經跨境的一個國際的一個犯罪所以必須要國際合作 互相交換情資所以我認為大家不要把因為美國示警了 一起跟台灣來協助偵辦然後把它講成好像我們的政府失靈了"},{"start":642.536,"end":665.116,"text":"國際互助本來就是必須而台灣也要堅定的強大的扮演好這種國際司法互助的角色我們也能夠幫助其他國家一起來偵破這種全球性的詐騙的犯罪我覺得這樣的評斷跟觀點才是正確而不是今天一直在這裡為難你們"},{"start":668.16,"end":678.415,"text":"那我也要說來下一頁我直接講到來下一頁講到那個好這裡因為我們給了打炸非常多的新的武器透過修法202320242025我們剛剛您講的我們還有新的修法"},{"start":684.588,"end":706.974,"text":"到底我們的打炸是真的都沒有進展嗎這個是165的打炸的儀表板也是在我們的這幾年的努力之下上路的我們相信透明公開我們相信唯有全民一起來監督一起來關注我們政府勇敢的接受社會的檢驗"},{"start":708.254,"end":719.721,"text":"如果以這個儀表板上的公告的資訊我們每月詐騙案的受理數是減少36%它的源頭是有效的減少的以及詐騙的財損數從138億下降到60億減少56%我承認這個數字還是很怕人的我們還是要防範但是我要為我們所有的執法人員打氣"},{"start":737.154,"end":761.007,"text":"當立法院給了武器我們所有的部門投入而且社會有共識一起來打仗而且全球一起來防炸的時候有成績有成效我們永遠不滿意但是我也要替你們講公道話而不是一再打擊我們政府同仁的士氣最後一個我提醒一個新的案例來下一個是發生在我自己身上前一夜"},{"start":762.128,"end":776.188,"text":"就是說廣告實名制上路之後詐騙集團的手法改變了從過去的假投資廣告最大宗現在變成是網路購物最大宗而且成長了222%我自己是受害者下一頁"},{"start":777.29,"end":796.9,"text":"我就在上禮拜三在這裡質詢的時候我的服務處助理打給我這個四妖姐姐你是不是有在哪裡買了什麼有購其實我已經N次收到這種包裹因為我自己是不會網購的所以我都告訴我助理我沒有我助理說那我知道那這個就是詐騙"},{"start":798.16,"end":821.39,"text":"所以說非常多的幽靈包裹一案可以兩詐一個我查到他的公司資訊全部造假而我掃進去他的公司資訊我就可以查到這是一個不折不扣的一頁式的網站當你去查詢驗證這個詐騙包裹的時候他同時如果你去搜尋了進入他的頁面他又可以設下陷阱去盜取你的個資"},{"start":822.811,"end":841.87,"text":"所以這一類的幽靈包裹好下一頁我今天沒有時間了已經占超過時間了我還是要提醒審計部也寫出報告我們的跨部會今天那個馬指揮官在這裡跨部會的合作從經濟部到交通部對於物流業者超商配送"},{"start":842.83,"end":863.207,"text":"然後到我們的內政部的這個偵辦現在是失靈的幽靈包裹這一類到現在是沒有辦法有效的去管控的而現在它已經成為新型的網路詐騙的最大宗已經超越了投資廣告"},{"start":863.968,"end":891.509,"text":"所以我們找到對的方法去打擊詐騙當我們讓網路實名制上路之後可以讓這些假投資廣告沒有那麼辦法方便的橫行那現在已經變成新型的這種網路購物的詐騙因為時間到了我今天拋出來下一次我相信還有非常多次的機會就教於各位是不是可以把跨部會的協防就幽靈包裹網路購物的詐騙我明明沒有買"},{"start":892.25,"end":900.795,"text":"他獲到付款要騙消費者的錢這個東西我們來協防起來我下次再就教於你們好不好好謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}