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這雖然看似是一個小問題但本席就是要表達就是說這樣看起來你們好像沒有很在意部長 我想要表達的是你可能在醫政上面你過去在健保署等等 你很專業可是你在這上面是不是應該要更加用心一點 部長希望部長可以多在意這個所謂的社政的部分會 一樣的重視"},{"start":88.391,"end":109.227,"text":"所以回到報告內容喔19年的版說成立集中派案窗口後總計受理26萬餘件的保護性或脆弱家庭的通報案件並且可以快速的篩出22%的錯誤通報及重複通報案件那且98%的案件可以24小時內完成派案評估部長認為這98%的數字是滿意的嗎"},{"start":113.742,"end":129.713,"text":"我們當然希望是百分之百啦你希望是百分之百好我接下來跟你講這就會發生什麼問題我們當然希望越高越好但是同樣監察院的報告當中卻點出了衛福部系統性的問題首先是通報案件爆量"},{"start":130.253,"end":148.26,"text":"比預估高出10倍還沒有完全到位的社工人力根本沒有辦法應付好第二個仍然不夠清楚的分案標準是否開案的爭議以及受限的派案機制讓派案中心承受著接案時跟網絡各單位跟社政單位的爭執內耗與壓力"},{"start":150.905,"end":169.67,"text":"所以顯然要告訴部長的是報告書說這個高達90%好像近乎完美的派案成果完全不同喔所以部長認為這樣子所謂的這個報案量然後宣傳很有效以及這樣子的KPI你確定這樣的KPI是設定正確沒有問題的嗎"},{"start":171.23,"end":183.281,"text":"當然從這個通報案數來講我們還是得跟實際上的這個流行病學的研究的比例來看它確實還是underreport它還是有gap所以我們還是要繼續去鼓勵這個通報出來"},{"start":188.385,"end":210.266,"text":"求救啦 就是受害者要去求救那第二個是人力的部分對 我想要跟你說的就是今天討論這個議題本身科技監控是一個方法而已我們是想要真的從根本上降低家暴以及家暴防治今天時間不夠可是我會盡量講快一點所以我要跟你說的是你這樣的KPI設定應該是有問題的"},{"start":211.407,"end":234.463,"text":"隨著你的宣導越多的時候你的案量會越多沒有錯但是問題是你人力不足那你怎麼辦所以你的精準識別高風險就是很重要的一環可是看起來是沒有辦法的因為現在看起來就是這個部分就是一個根本性的問題所以你連KPI如果都設定錯的情況之下這樣就會導致大家就是徒勞無功而且瞎忙"},{"start":236.021,"end":255.051,"text":"因為社工已經很辛苦了你如果沒有精準的分辨出高風險的時候你就會導致大家有個惡性循環所以本席認為你應該要重新檢討你的不要將通報量作為你們美化政府在這部分努力的數據通報量根本不是所謂的真正有效"},{"start":255.871,"end":266.086,"text":"通報量你只能夠說你宣導有效但是你沒有辦法根本上解決問題甚至還可能導致案件壓力過大讓社工要離職喔所以你應該要公布所謂高風險個案鑑別失敗率"},{"start":269.574,"end":297.911,"text":"還有脆弱家庭服務轉型結案後的再通報率你結案了應該是要應該是要這個到底是怎麼樣的真實數據這應該是你們真正的KPI你們真正要去關注的對吧這兩個這個指標後段的這個脆弱家庭再通報現在已經納入了那前面這個確實這個我們要回頭去檢視我們現在用的工具跟方法對於這個高風險個案的鑑別的正確率如何"},{"start":298.491,"end":315.526,"text":"所以這是我要告訴你們的請你們要去檢討這是第一件事這還是第一部分而已我們今天剛剛一直有人說到底電子監控有沒有用我們等一下再講到電子監控第二部分剛剛講到社工社工所處的情況也不容樂觀111年你們的調查說5824名社安網裡面的社工"},{"start":319.83,"end":336.827,"text":"高達1188人遭受到這個口語威脅辱罵肢體傷害那高雄市的社工工會更驚爆每三天就有一名社工可能受到身體傷害惡劣的環境讓社工慌所以桃園市為例近三年社工平均離職率高達17%"},{"start":338.709,"end":366.018,"text":"但是脆弱家庭通報每年9500件啊余件啊所以社工的缺口連年破百所以這個跟剛剛就有一個惡性循環出生社安網的頂層設計的失敗案量預估錯誤導致案量也有可能大量的太多而且沒有精準的找到案量第二個社工在這樣高案量高暴力高壓力難以精緻處理個案的情況之下導致敏感度的鈍化"},{"start":367.506,"end":392.333,"text":"第三高風險高風險的個案失敗社工就會反遭被究責甚至可能有什麼上銬啊或者是被社會的輿論壓力所以社工就會覺得說高壓低支持的情況之下選擇用腳投票就是離開好就搞導致高離職率然後有經驗的社工大量流失新進的社工更難應對導致系統性的進一步惡化你同意吧"},{"start":393.957,"end":419.364,"text":"對 這個我非常同意就是對於社工我們不能夠這樣苛責啦以目前的這樣的工作的型態那我們也在這個未來的那個社安網2.0裡面我們去擴編這個社工的人力部長 剛剛兩個就是要告訴你現況就是這樣子所以你的KPI你的績效到底要怎麼評估你們應該要從頭從頂層設計去全方位的檢討這是第一部分接下來是保護令"},{"start":420.444,"end":444.744,"text":"保護令剛剛有委員說保護令很有效可是我要告訴你保護令其實是沒有什麼效因為還是發生了很多的案件所以譬如說逐年升高剛剛也有委員講說違反保護令的案件2021年可能3721到2024年變成4497如果數據沒有那麼精確有錯誤你也可以糾正我每年家暴平均可能有3300多件那其實"},{"start":448.269,"end":449.977,"text":"這一些保護令出來之後"},{"start":451.178,"end":479.614,"text":"沒有辦法及時的預警所以近三年這個加害者加害者生壓率就是只有6到7%那一樣是加報防治書但是其實也有另外一個數據說如果是檢察官生壓 申請羈押羈押率有高達七成也高於一般犯罪率所以顯示其實這個是有問題存在因為代表檢察官如果真的到法院去說要這件事這個部分我想"},{"start":480.334,"end":488.299,"text":"這個也可以請司法院法務部都上來在旁邊好了所以這就是一個很奇怪的部分"},{"start":489.813,"end":510.722,"text":"所以代表說什麼代表說這個保護令其實也可能有出現很大的漏洞所以剛我講的是不是屬實就是這樣的相關數據譬如說檢察官如果申請生壓的話核准生壓可能有到七成可是在所有的家暴案件裡面受害者想要去想要去申請這個生壓真正的比率只有6到7%剛剛應該有委員提到對不對"},{"start":513.932,"end":542.71,"text":"跟委员报告就是说这个申请羁押率那他的数据是来自于家暴案件所有家暴案件数因为这个家暴案件数有大部分可能是用含送而非现行犯移送的也就是说他不是把人拘捕之后移送到检察官这边来因此这个数这个比例会比较低的原因可能是因为在这边所以我们可能回去还要再去确认就是说以现行犯移送就是有拘捕被告到检察官这边的那我们的生涯率是多少"},{"start":542.93,"end":562.669,"text":"對嘛所以這些數據你都沒有或是你們應該要再去確認那你怎麼可以說現在的保護令是真的好像剛剛有委員說其實是很有效的我覺得這我沒有辦法認同所以這部分請你們回去提供本席辦公室數據好嗎再來就是今天的重要的重點科技監控的部分"},{"start":563.891,"end":580.174,"text":"其實在場還有包含警政署警政署的代表也上來當初邱太元部長在這裡的時候本席也質詢一樣是各部會在這裡我問每一個部會對於科技監控的態度我再問一次林園已經換了部長請問一下石部長你對於"},{"start":581.363,"end":607.736,"text":"科技監控在家暴裡面的科技監控這一塊甚至入法部分你的態度是什麼就是以科技的工具來強化這個對被害人的保護這個我們方向上是支持的只是在執行上如何去執行能夠兼顧到這個個人的隱私跟執行的效果這個我們必須要再好再講一次個人隱私你說是哪個部分的個人隱私就是包含這個被害"},{"start":610.86,"end":622.614,"text":"所有的隱私資訊或者他的被害者的個人隱私對 他的生活的被介入你是擔心被害者的個人隱私對 還有他可能會不會帶來反效果這個"},{"start":624.316,"end":652.356,"text":"部長我跟你說啊所以你覺得隱私還有人權是一個很大的問題對不對你覺得隱私和人權是很大的問題嗎好那我想要請問一下美國是不是人權國家英國是不是人權國家法國西班牙是不是人權國家請問是不是我原提的這當然都是是那他們有沒有用電子監控重視人權的國家啦有嘛那他們有沒有用電子監控怎麼樣的去執行我們再來生就之後那你訂出這是第一個人權的我的回應啊"},{"start":653.397,"end":660.084,"text":"所以現在有很多 現在也都有在直播所以我覺得人權這是一件在拖延的藉口"},{"start":661.277,"end":684.338,"text":"你所謂的人權這些國家都是人權國家他們也用了這個科技這是第一件事第二件事你說隱私權受害者隱私權請問我跟你說也有研究報告顯示就是你剛說隱私權還有這個生活覺得說生活被拘束好我跟你說也有報告顯示說這些被家暴的受害者認為有了電子監控之後他的生活更自在更自由"},{"start":685.339,"end":697.682,"text":"因為他不用擔心在被家暴如果你沒有電子清空的情況之下很多人要住進去哪裡對不對去庇護所你也點頭要去庇護所他進去庇護所他到底是更自由還是更不自由"},{"start":698.956,"end":727.458,"text":"那這就是一個很大的問題再者你的庇護所也不夠嘛你長期的庇護所也不夠嘛所以這兩個理由在本席看來是推脫的理由我剛剛也回答這是推脫的理由因為這些國家也都有在做這個事再者 要用 不過剛委員說明齁其實不是每個國家這麼做那即使是在澳洲也是有事辦像您看到的這樣所以表示說這件事情的執行上確實是有爭議要小心的"},{"start":728.038,"end":748.067,"text":"再來我是要跟你說不要用推脫的方式你們應該要盡速研議再來剛剛你說的這個你說包含這科技監控的部分你覺得會有人權的問題啦或者是要有爭議的問題剛剛我們也討論到這個是不是被害者想要做他要知情的情況之下才會做"},{"start":748.447,"end":770.496,"text":"一定要對嘛那你覺得這裡的配套完全尊重對所以不是代表他一定馬上要使用嘛所以你剛剛的這個隱私權自由權或者知情權你又打自己的臉了不是嗎即使是在他同意的情形之下我們也要有妥善的配套很多在知情之下執行的政策仍然可能傷害到他個人"},{"start":770.996,"end":795.395,"text":"妥善的配套所以所以我沒關係現在你的態度是說你支持這個方向可是要妥善的配套是這個意思好那我想要請問因為這次的回答跟上次的邱部長就不太一樣邱部長表示的支持度更高好支持度更高還說一個月內要跨部會這個研議呀好但是看起來你們也只開了一次會那接下來換這個法務部你們的態度呢"},{"start":798.332,"end":826.901,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上這個立法目的我們是非常的認同也就是說強化對於這個被害人的保護但這個你只認同立法目的但是你沒有認同這個電子科技監控這個針對這個措施那他可能會收集到這個相關被害人他的一些資訊的部分還是資訊隱私的問題可是剛剛不是已經回答了嗎對就是我想那個衛福部他們也會有非常完整的一個研議之後那所以你的態度是支持不支持你們你們的部分"},{"start":827.738,"end":855.669,"text":"我們就是尊重這個衛福部他們的這個所以你是尊重衛福部只要衛福部立法你們就支持我們尊重衛福部主管機關的演繹好那請問這個司法院報告委員我們的立場是支持但我們有兩個報告第一個就是說在民事保護令裡面為確保這個遠離令裡面讓被害人有相當"},{"start":856.849,"end":877.741,"text":"保護他的安全這樣的科控是絕對正確的那這個科控在比例上我們要加上一些高風險的評估這樣讓法官裁量這是第一個部分那第二個部分當然一定要被害人同意那因為有兩個部分在國際的都是這樣所以這就是相對的配套了嘛對不對"},{"start":880.123,"end":905.99,"text":"那就在國際上他兩個部分一個就是說叫做定點科控一個叫做隨著被害人的移動科控雙向那這個要被害人同意當然要被害人同意剛剛講過被害人完全知情的時候我們同意在這個法令這是第一部分那事實上你有這個電子監控本來就是為了被害人被受害者被害人去設立的目前原理論是"},{"start":907.99,"end":919.331,"text":"目前年齡率是以這個住居所上班場所以及特定出入場所沒關係 這是一些技術細節啊但是你們的部分是支持嘛 對不對好 謝謝 那請問警政署"},{"start":922.573,"end":943.772,"text":"委員好 只要能夠減少這種家暴案件憾事的發生 本署都是支持那同樣的 相關的配套措施 就等待中央主管部會他們來研議 我們就配合來幫忙好 警政署支持 其實我也認為是應該要因為你的人力也不可能隨時保護令出現問題的時候你衝到現場 你也來不及嘛當然"},{"start":944.592,"end":973.123,"text":"對啊 當然 所以我還是想要重申謝謝 請署長回答我還是要跟部長重申其實你也可以聽到不管是司法院或是警政署其實他們配套也蠻明確的啦那你們到底在猶豫什麼呢我本席要告訴你們請你們盡速因為我剛剛不是只針對電子科技監控這只不過是最末端的一個問題而已包含這個電子監控的部分還有包含受害人處置的部分你們也是相對投入的資源根本不足啊"},{"start":973.863,"end":995.356,"text":"所以你說發生之後要讓這個加害人怎麼處置要讓他可以矯正他的行為這個你們都今天還沒有時間討論到所以從剛開始的你的KPI的設計到社工的出了問題所以才會說現在的漏網之語漏洞這麼大才會想到說那是不是參照國際的方式去用所謂的電子監控的技術"},{"start":996.517,"end":1022.306,"text":"所以本席希望你們儘速 今天是大體討論但是希望你們儘速研議 請儘速提出修法方向而且要往這方向所謂的相關配套因為本席要提醒你們這根本就是看執政黨願不願意做執政黨看起來用這些方式在用推脫的就像當初就業服務法廢除巴士量表的時候你跟我們說上路根本來不及所以你們需要時間配套"},{"start":1023.306,"end":1050.707,"text":"大院立法院也給了勞動部時間配套結果到了六七個月以後去實施發現根本沒有這麼多人申請發現這樣子的制度也有受這個加匯到非常多需要的人所以本席要說我們要盡速的推動不要用這些理由所謂的隱私權人權剛剛都已經回應過了我覺得這是一個非常拖一拖和拖這個希望立法延後的狀況這段時間有多少受害者如果又受害了"},{"start":1051.528,"end":1056.292,"text":"有多少受害者受害了 那誰要負責 誰要下台以上 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}