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10:51:50","會議時間":"2025-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「法院組織法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「法院組織法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員翁曉玲等31人擬具「憲法訴訟法第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查司法院函送「法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.69721875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.06409375,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.08034375,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.21284375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.06846875,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.67971875,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.06721875,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.17909375,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.102843750000005,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.742843750000006,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.27596875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.43471875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.69471875,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.99784375000002,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.92596875,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.00534375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.66596875000002,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.31909375,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.63596875000002,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.43596875,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.21971875000003,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.13096875000002,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.13721875000002,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.70971875,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.53596875000002,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":270.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.16159375,"end":282.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.65346875,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.43221875,"end":297.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.63846875,"end":303.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.62909375000004,"end":306.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.75096875,"end":320.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.19096875,"end":329.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":332.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.63721875000005,"end":336.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.61534375,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.60221875,"end":340.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.39534375,"end":341.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.40784375000004,"end":363.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.05284375,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.83284375,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.02471875000003,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.69846875,"end":380.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.16971875,"end":381.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.78971875,"end":403.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.35596875000005,"end":404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.28409375,"end":406.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.66346875000005,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.21596875,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.87784375,"end":424.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.62284375,"end":452.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.31471875000005,"end":455.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.75721875000005,"end":475.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.50096875,"end":477.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.88034375,"end":485.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.69346875,"end":486.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.73971875,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.80596875000003,"end":505.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.63534375000006,"end":516.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.8953437499999,"end":532.99409375},{"sp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少年犯一些犯罪其實它分兩大部分我想複密應該非常的理解這一塊就有關少年事件 少年保護事件還有少年的刑事案件這兩個不一樣嘛"},{"start":83.854,"end":110.879,"text":"那五年以上的案件其實他會被送到檢察官那邊他等於是一個逆送的狀況跟那個一般少年犯輕罪其實是不一樣他的走的流程整個狀況是不一樣我想複密應該非常的了解那這個部分我就不多說但是因為我還是必須要讓大家知道如果少年犯的是五年以上的重罪的時候那這個時候會有檢察官出來來主導整個偵查"},{"start":112.119,"end":140.047,"text":"但是如果是一般少年犯輕罪那這個時候我們以一個保護優先的概念我們會讓法院來管理這個事情走向保護處分然後他所做的是一些比較非對抗的跨專業的合作的法官比較職權介入的方式然後避免這個小孩子因為犯輕罪而被貼標籤這個是我國目前的法治是這樣但是對於比較重大的案件"},{"start":141.027,"end":149.865,"text":"那這時候呢 甲官介入就是一個比較國家公權力的強制去介入但是我們剛剛講的小朋友犯罪有這兩種輕跟重這兩個狀況但是呢"},{"start":154.383,"end":172.79,"text":"犯罪之後前科的突銷多久能突銷本來也應該不一樣啊但是在我國的目前突銷的標準卻一模一樣所以都是走三年觀察期啦是單一一個標準也就是說如果今天這個小朋友進去家裡面偷東西竊盜罪五年以下走三年保護"},{"start":173.47,"end":188.82,"text":"但是他如果在偷的時候被屋主發現他變成是強盜施以暴力的時候變成5年以上這時候又會轉由檢察官來處理所以面對這兩種案子一個是走向保護管束另外一個是檢察官介入調查"},{"start":189.801,"end":204.06,"text":"但是呢 他們突銷卻一模一樣這個時候請問一下 複密你們是不是忽略了惡性極端重大的案子這個少年前科的突銷制度要有所不一樣怎麼可以用同一套標準 請問複密"},{"start":205.68,"end":222.562,"text":"好那個謝謝委員垂詢因為就是有關於那個少年的那個不管是保護事件或者是那個刑事前科呢他的那個塗銷雖然兩個性質不一樣可是他們相同的立法意旨都是為了讓他們復歸啊就是讓那個可以"},{"start":224.844,"end":248.072,"text":"所以我剛跟您提到 我也猜到你會這樣回答就為了保護少年 要讓他回歸社會我們這個出發點沒有錯但是呢 這兩個東西如果混為一談沒有一個差異化的話其實你們是不是忽略掉了一個很重要的觀念就是一個社會防衛的責任是不是我們忽略到社會防衛責任"},{"start":248.792,"end":270.468,"text":"所以從新北戈侯案這個案子我就看到了一個點我們似乎好像對於未成年的保護就是保護到極致保護到爆炸保護到完全沒什麼好談就是保護到底但是我們卻忘了去忽略掉有一些人有一些特殊的狀況雖然未成年人大部分其實都不會去犯重罪但是極端少數的那些人"},{"start":271.269,"end":296.739,"text":"犯了重罪但是我們對於他的觀察期一模一樣的話會不會反而讓社會上面其他的小朋友或其他的人反而因此而活在恐懼中像譬如我小孩還小那他之後要去上小學的時候我也會擔心啊他們班會不會有一個類似這樣的人但是因為我們要給這種犯罪的人保護就我不知道我小孩子可能跟一個有犯過重罪的人兩個在同一個班級上課"},{"start":297.885,"end":325.087,"text":"那老師也不知道就到最後沒有人知道要先去預防一些事情新北哥侯案就是這樣發生這麼悲劇發生之後我們卻沒有注意到有什麼要改變那我再請教你一個問題我們剛剛講的竊盜強盜這個也是有的是產案犯罪有的是輕罪有的是重罪那我請問一下殺人的話如果這個小朋友殺了人"},{"start":326.26,"end":332.166,"text":"那為什麼他跟竊盜的輕罪一樣都是三年歸零呢我請教你"},{"start":332.679,"end":355.387,"text":"那個包委員那個委員垂詢的這個其實就是一個形式政策的一個選擇就是說我們是把它擺在就是跟您剛剛的解釋一樣就是幫少年能夠復歸保護少年形式政策對不對但是我再重申一次我們這個邏輯是忽略掉社會防衛的這個責任所以"},{"start":357.128,"end":381.588,"text":"新北哥和那個同班同學目睹他殺了十幾刀的這個人把人殺死一刀殺死那我們關切的是對於這種動不動把這個小朋友是別個小朋友的生命於無物的時候那我們對他的觀察期卻跟偷個東西的觀察期是一樣的這樣合理嗎你對於其他小朋友"},{"start":383.133,"end":406.415,"text":"乖乖的小朋友或者是一般的爸媽你對他們公平嗎這是我要提出來請司法院一定要去注意到這個感覺否則人民的感覺會是什麼你在跟我唱高空講大道理我一點都不在乎你今天跟我講什麼我只要我的小孩平平安安的出門平平安安的回家來陪我平平安安長大陪著我我說真的我只在乎這個啦"},{"start":407.833,"end":424.019,"text":"人民會這樣跟你講所以司法院請不要拿行事政策或拿什麼復歸這種大道理來告訴人民這個人民不會買單的好 然後再來你說的這個三年如果觀察期都一樣那我告訴你你反而害慘了小孩子"},{"start":424.699,"end":446.229,"text":"因為我以前走刑事案件偵查我走了那麼多年我走了20年的刑事偵查我看到了一個點很多黑幫會用這些小孩子他就告訴小孩子反正你犯罪也不會被怎麼樣然後觀察期也才三年反而這些黑幫更喜歡把這些小孩子當作免洗塊來用反正這個小孩出事了換下一批小孩"},{"start":446.989,"end":454.867,"text":"有更多小孩子他未來可以無限的使用我叫小孩子去開槍開完槍之後打死人了反正沒差嘛"},{"start":456.002,"end":483.568,"text":"判沒有多久而且三年後突銷所以我們可以這樣做嗎我們這樣子做以為維持社會正義以為保障小孩子會不會反而害了更多的小孩子我覺得我們要面對的是司法的實務社會的現實而不是在象牙塔裡面講原理原則講理論因為我們是司法第一線實務的人我們不是大學教授所以當我看到司法實務有這個狀況發生的時候"},{"start":485.808,"end":492.76,"text":"我想您一定要特別注意這個點成少共犯以及成年人把小朋友當作免洗塊的這個問題"},{"start":494.901,"end":515.553,"text":"法官在處理案件是就個案所以法官有時候他鑒數不鑒你沒辦法但是您是司法院的高層你必須站在高空看地面你不能跟著第一線的司法判案人員就站在地面看地面你必須站在300公尺高空你必須要鑒零不是只能鑒數"},{"start":517.054,"end":540.006,"text":"對不對 你不是見數不見零的人啊所以要麻煩你們同時思考小朋友的保護以及善良小朋友的保護 必須要橫平所以我個人在這邊建議 塗銷的觀察期絕對不能一致麻煩你們能夠去審慎思考這個點因為社會安全防衛的底線 我們要堅守住"},{"start":541.041,"end":564.307,"text":"我今天看到的就是不停的保障這些犯罪者我們國家的司法制度整天告訴我被告的權益要保障但是我想告訴你的一件事我更在乎善良百姓以及被害人的權益要保障但是我今天看到是一堆人每天都在喊被告的權利我們是不是忘了被害人的權利一樣對小朋友也是你跟我說"},{"start":565.41,"end":572.639,"text":"要讓他復歸社會你跟我說要保護未成年人但是我想到的是那那些善良的小朋友們呢誰來保護所以"},{"start":575.202,"end":602.822,"text":"我希望師父因為你們這次提出來的版本還是一模一樣所以你今天不提一個修正版本你至少要回應我的書面質詢至少要告訴我你們的想法是什麼該怎麼辦如何兼顧社會防衛跟刑法正義的治安需求你必須要告訴我這個點我要在這邊跟您強調不管是犯罪的或者是其他小朋友每一個人都是家裡面的寶我會說我看我兒子"},{"start":603.883,"end":626.462,"text":"我兒子我跟你講 我為他我有99條命 我願意為他死100次都可以每一個家長都是這樣在看待小孩所以麻煩你們要特別注意就是當小朋友不停地在踐踏司法底線的時候其實我們就應該終止法律對這個小朋友的寬容了因為我的訴求對好人更好 對壞人更壞"},{"start":627.883,"end":654.045,"text":"好 最後就是30秒兒少證人的保護 請你們注意這件事情你們不能放任各個法院對於證人的保護讓各個法官去決定因為我到北院去看 新北地院去看那個走廊很小結果我們那個新北哥河案證人來 竟然跟被告兩個人就在那邊隔一公尺多互看然後結果這個證人回去被人家騷擾"},{"start":655.376,"end":675.497,"text":"我覺得你們要用制度來處理這件事情你不能讓各個法院各自為政好不好我跟你講啦只有能夠補動的是制度我們不能永遠靠運氣好過往證人開完庭之後出去被殺的好幾件又有桃園又有律師開完庭出去被被告殺死所以我們不能每個案子"},{"start":676.218,"end":695.629,"text":"都靠運氣 請全國一致搞一個制度來處理所以三個月內呢 給我一個兒少正能保護要點動線分流還有候審隔離的基準要有那個動線分流獨立等候區或候審隔離區或者是有沒有人陪同等待 這個麻煩給我一個這個要點"},{"start":697.61,"end":715.85,"text":"你們要完成這個要點好不好然後要給我一下然後還有一個開庭前進庭中退庭後保護的SOP而且要列入法院的評鑑我不希望還有民眾因為開庭然後出法院之後被殺死前陣子那什麼殺死加包案件殺死小姨子就是這樣好不好好 謝謝複密"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}