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現在我跟你講現在被押的剛才王委員質詢幾千件為什麼只有兩百多個被押因為那些人就是刑事訴訟法第114條裡面的但書的符合的"},{"start":182.856,"end":196.94,"text":"就是累犯有犯罪習慣等等的如果沒有的話其實是無法押的所以我再說一次土城當街殺人的信義計劃區馬上殺人的違反保護令罪馬上殺人的都是第一次其實要押完全不可能押不是檢察官的問題而已也不是法官的問題是我們法律的工具不夠的問題"},{"start":211.044,"end":214.846,"text":"責任在我們的法律出了問題好嗎好市長請回我不是要問你抱歉喔我今天不是要問這個題目我想我已經問三遍國民法官審判的事情了今天終於找了一個聽說找了一個業務懲判單位的法官來了"},{"start":232.174,"end":255.99,"text":"上個禮拜呢上個禮拜我問你副秘書長昨天我問刑事庭庭長我問說你舉個例子告訴我什麼是什麼樣的案件案情是符合國民法官法第六條第一項第四款所說的被告認罪了經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行國民參審的為適當的情形來"},{"start":262.074,"end":267.588,"text":"再說一次今天有貝爾來了上一個上個禮拜你旁邊那個法官姓什麼"},{"start":268.527,"end":298.227,"text":"我又忘了你上次的呂法官上來然後我說這個例外可以不行這個國民法官參審的例外你舉個例子給我聽他說有涉及到生命法益的案子上個禮拜副秘書長還有你的呂法官這樣子回答我根本就是在胡說八道我再問你的是不適用國民法官的情形他回答我的是"},{"start":299.647,"end":324.017,"text":"故意犯罪因而發生死亡結果要適用國民法官法這個是答非所問所以我再問一次你們昨天刑事廳廳長我再問他第二遍他回答我說被告認罪對於刑度及證據調查沒有意見檢察官及辯護人員都認為不用國民法官為適當"},{"start":326.158,"end":350.632,"text":"這種說法有回答跟沒有回答是一樣的所以在這種狀況裡面根本就是把條文的內容再簡單的講一遍而已你們司法院自己把條文定的這樣子看起來高深莫測沒有人可以解讀的出來你們到底是在講什麼你們法官也不用所以要你們舉例你們一個例子從上個禮拜的你到昨天的廳長"},{"start":352.253,"end":358.016,"text":"一個例子都舉不出來昨天給我的書面你們下班以前給了我一份書面好像六頁還是幾頁 六頁這個書面裡面也沒有回答出什麼條件 什麼例子是適用第六條第一項第四款的通通都沒有所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":378.174,"end":389.563,"text":"你可不可以再有備而來的第三次了質詢第三次了再講一次第六條第一項第四款所講的大概例子是什麼樣子可不可以再講一遍好來啊"},{"start":392.94,"end":417.148,"text":"報告委員 針對實務上有關第六條第一項第四款的相關適用情形因為我們現在有在做行銷評估其實只要轉軌的話都有進行相關裁定書的公告我們透過海撈所有的裁定書之後進行分析大致上分析出有兩種類型一種類型是說原則上被告認罪被害人的家屬這邊也同意給被告清醒的機會大家也同意轉軌這種情況下會所謂的大家也同意轉軌大家是誰"},{"start":422.029,"end":448.086,"text":"大家指的意思是說檢察官沒意見通常被告辯護人會申請要轉軌檢察官沒有意見這個情況下通常有可能會轉軌但是還有另外一種類型他們認為考量到是國民法官法基本上是要實現所謂的公共利益也就是說所謂的反映國民的法感情有量刑上的考量所以即便是在有這樣一個情形下他還是覺得說還是要讓國民法官來量刑你講的第二種狀況等於這個法條這一款可以廢掉"},{"start":452.729,"end":474.321,"text":"你講的這個狀況第四款可以廢掉了因為實務上分析兩種的運作情形是這樣子我叫你舉例子不是叫你說你去海撈一下你這個講的很像是說未來的試用基準要這樣子定不是不是這個委員因為我們這個部分是分析全國裁定的結果所以你的第一種是"},{"start":475.462,"end":500.998,"text":"是講可以不適用嘛 第二種是講不能適用嘛 因為目前就是有寬延兩種標準那因為抗告的情形比較少 所以說還不知道說這個高院這邊的對於這種一個適用基準的看法好啦 現在我不再講這個 由此可知從第一次上個禮拜 第二次昨天的廳長 到現在第三次你們到立法院來 叫你們舉一個例子你現在跟我講說你去海拉的所有的裁定以後發現有這幾種現象"},{"start":502.719,"end":531.342,"text":"但我現在問你說你舉一個你們定這個條文定成這個樣子你們想像的到底是什麼這個跟既有的已經做成才定的不一樣的兩件事喔你們定這個條文條文是你們定的然後呢你舉一個例子來跟我說你們認為要適用這一款的例子是什麼案情是什麼條件是才會符合你的條文所說的你們到現在第三次了講不出來"},{"start":532.583,"end":552.657,"text":"昨天你們給我的書面資料第四頁說成效評估委員會也建議你們要新增裁定不行國民法官的適用基準你連什麼樣的案子的類型可能是符合這第四款的你三次講不出來然後你們的成效評估委員會要你們訂基準我看你們也根本訂不出來因為連例子都說不出來能夠訂什麼基準"},{"start":561.619,"end":572.122,"text":"其實在這個國民法官法第六條立法理由就講得很清楚說原則上要對量刑沒有重大爭議只不過對於量刑有沒有重大爭議這件事情到底要到什麼樣的認定量刑有沒有爭議是要結果以後了要結果以後現在是在講還沒有審判以前我要申請不是用國民法官參審一個是審判之前就要符合資格可以不審判你現在回答我說量刑是審判以後"},{"start":589.367,"end":600.995,"text":"因為有關於這個量刑的部分當然是最後一個法院認定的結果可是在準備程序的時候呢在所謂的國民法官制度下呢有人上檢察官跟辯護人員檢察官會這邊會有進行求刑的動作所以會針對這個部分來進行相關的檢察官求刑跟量刑結果傷害國民要符合國民感情這是兩個程序不同的階段耶"},{"start":610.939,"end":629.136,"text":"然後現在講跟你講第六條第一項第四款舉一個例子告訴我你們想像的這個符合可以例外的條款的案子舉不出來到現在舉不出來然後屢屢到這裡來都胡說八道上一次的呂法官昨天的廳長好 算了我現在再問你喔"},{"start":630.057,"end":656.194,"text":"我舉一個例子 你們都沒有看見這個問題這麼嚴重嗎當初做改革的時候 國民法官法通過的時候我們以為是高舉著進步的這個高期大期可是這樣運作下來我就告訴你們 語重心長是要提醒你們真的有很多制度面執行下來有很多缺失和問題而你們都不願意承認 不願意看到那我再舉一個例子好了"},{"start":657.219,"end":680.638,"text":"前一陣子有一個發生 清潔隊員侵占電鍋被起訴貪污的罪這種案子的類型很多出犯的條文都是貪污治罪條例第四條第一項第一款侵占公有物罪實際上事實上侵占 清潔隊員侵占一個人沒有愛的電鍋但是法定刑期多少"},{"start":683.156,"end":693.115,"text":"10年以上 罪很重這些被告通通就認罪了這時候要不要適用國民法官法 明年起明年起是需要的"},{"start":694.745,"end":702.81,"text":"認罪了依照國民法官法第五條的規定原則上適用我現在在提醒你是適用國民法官法但是這些清潔隊隊員都是社會經濟的弱者他們不懂法律一犯罪就犯了十年以上有期徒刑的罪而且他們就會立刻認罪輿論甚至認為不應該起訴的"},{"start":720.259,"end":747.317,"text":"你要講國民感情國民感情甚至會認為不應該起訴的結果呢明年起要適用了要適用國民法官法冗長的程序審理你們自己法官都受不了國民法官反省的程序所以才會對辦理國民參審的法官減分案結果你們減分案當事人程序冗長飽受折磨"},{"start":750.619,"end":770.411,"text":"當事人都認罪了你們他剛剛講的或許第六條第一項第四款他講的第一個條件人家受害者家屬也願意原諒他了受害者家屬也認為說不要再國民參審了可是你們都還要堅持要人家陪你們玩下去玩一出國民參審的法庭大戲不可要人民怎麼信賴你們司法"},{"start":775.458,"end":801.612,"text":"蛤 這個未來怎麼辦 十年以上他也是適用國民法官法的 這一種 到現在你們都還是認為說 一定要陪你們審到完嗎報告委員 這當然是原則上依照國民法第五條的規定符合相關的規定 故意犯罪致人於死或第二階段十年以上有囚刑當然就是原則上要適用 但是當然個案情況下有可能會依照第六條的 依照案件的情況第六條哪一款"},{"start":802.674,"end":824.361,"text":"第二 如果是非常複雜的情形的話當然有可能是有第三款的反查性條款第四款可不可以第四款的部分呢尤其涉及到是有依照立法理由要必須量刑沒有爭議那在目前的實務上的話他量刑會有爭議嗎清潔隊隊員欠佔一個破電鍋人家國民的感情是希望你連起訴都不要啦"},{"start":826.758,"end":842.383,"text":"委員我想補充一下因為委員舉的這個例子他不是國民法官他出問題不是在國民法官這邊的設計而是說對於那個貪污自罪條例對於這些那個財務非常輕微的我們的司法刑事政策要怎麼處理"},{"start":843.263,"end":869.511,"text":"那這個部分法務部事實上他們也都一直很加緊的就是在做了很多的到現在沒有改變以前你不要跟我講法務部不要再講為稅不起訴你不要跟我講這個到現在沒有100%剔除以前不要講這個事實上我現在就是在跟你講國民法官法你明年起十年以上的重罪通通都要改國民法官審理"},{"start":871.111,"end":893.272,"text":"現在清潔隊侵占一個電鍋就是10年以上貪污的罪好 我現在再跟你講另外一個問題昨天你們廳長在這裡答詢他說怎麼可以讓被告有選擇要不要適用國民法官的權利被告沒有選擇權現在我要講了"},{"start":897.028,"end":912.675,"text":"看就是說第六條第一項第四款喔是我們決定的啦不是你被告可以申請的啦你們不斷高舉著刑事訴訟是以被告為主體才改良適當事人進行主義同時還要發現真實在這種狀況裡面啦"},{"start":917.638,"end":927.704,"text":"為什麼作為刑事訴訟的主體對於要適用什麼樣的程序會沒有選擇權你們廳長的言論代表你們司法院嗎你們說"},{"start":931.843,"end":949.661,"text":"刑事訴訟的主體是這個被告當然是主體刑事訴訟制度要分成兩部分用一般程序的就說被告是訴訟主體用國民法官法的就說被告不是訴訟主體那被告不是訴訟主體難道是客體嗎是讓你們任你們隨便"},{"start":951.021,"end":980.128,"text":"予取予求任你們宰割的課題嗎你們自己都不會覺得矛盾嗎一下子說被告是訴訟的主體然後昨天聽長說被告沒有選擇程序的權利你們這樣子搞他是代表你們司法院嗎這樣子有辦法讓人民信服你們一下子這樣子 一下子那樣子 到底被告是不是訴訟的主體昨天聽長這樣講他沒有選擇進行什麼樣程序的權利"},{"start":981.943,"end":1003.645,"text":"他是代表你們司法院嗎那報告委因為這個部分基本上被告有沒有選擇權這個事情基本上在國民法官法立法過程中就已經有討論過很多了那後來決定沒有選擇權的原因是因為考量在目前有採取所謂這個選擇權的國家對國民參審的一個部分其實案件都非常的少"},{"start":1004.085,"end":1023.39,"text":"那其實就會失去了那你第六條第一項第四款是什麼一回事第六條的例外條款是什麼一回事第六條的一個情況呢基本上是原則上適用國民法官法的前提下呢謹慎的適用判處條款所以假如適用國民法不請國民法官審判的門開得很小耶"},{"start":1026.345,"end":1046.57,"text":"他的門開得很小 就第六條第一項的幾個條件而已咧那我也沒有叫你打開耶我也沒有反對國民法官訴訟的審理耶我現在講的是說你訂了第六條第一項的可以例外的條款而你們的門人家法律明明法律所許可你們這個門就給他關起來"},{"start":1049.332,"end":1066.39,"text":"然後他跟人家講說你沒有選擇的權利就第六條第一項可以例外許可的狀況當事人有沒有選擇的權利有沒有蛤 有沒有報告委員依照目前第六條的一個設計呢基本上被告是沒有選擇權的"},{"start":1068.516,"end":1075.899,"text":"我在講例外的條款例外的條款那所以你們整個刑事審判的體系是分成兩個架構喔"},{"start":1081.778,"end":1104.209,"text":"所以怎麼樣國民法官法就剝奪了他的訴訟主體的位置報告委員那個有關於被告是不是訴訟主體現在你們今天在這裡答詢的昨天講一個樣子今天講一個樣子明天還會再講一個樣子所以今天為什麼人家對你們司法制度上連制度上都沒有辦法信賴因為你在這裡學不出來嘛好我現在在講增進人民對司法的信賴"},{"start":1105.492,"end":1128.652,"text":"你要人家的對你們信賴方法很多啦你們法官要做出正確的判斷啦法官要像個法官啦不要幫助人犯脫逃啦一個中文治安兩個高院的法官一個還是庭長啊庭長欸到現在都多久了你們司法院給我們什麼交代嗯"},{"start":1132.422,"end":1146.769,"text":"我沒有在講這個很認真我現在跟你講說要推國民法官法你們就要把制度弄好要好好的弄弄好所以你們為什麼人家就那麼討厭你我舉一個例子"},{"start":1149.11,"end":1175.798,"text":"我以前質詢過我們在講說為什麼曾經我們在曾經我們辦公室因為工作需要上網查詢了一件判決書要查詢台北地方法院行政訴訟有關飲水法事件的判決判決日期在111年結果查不到在你們判決系統查不到我們去詢問司法院司法院了解的結果是當時系統沒有上傳成功"},{"start":1176.938,"end":1198.105,"text":"所以裁判書的重要是在於透過裁判書的公開的機制要來監督法官的裁判是否公正和妥適要保障人民的權利確保法院是不是有公平審判除了兒少啦 性侵啦 國家機密制裁法其實所有全部都會在裁判書系統上公開吧 對吧好"},{"start":1200.987,"end":1218.946,"text":"可是我們查詢這件無關乎不能公開的也非屬裁判書遮隱原則的在海量的判決當中就是剛好撈到沒有上傳的怎麼會這麼巧呢怎麼會這麼巧呢我就發現一個個案抱歉在我的手機上我會拿出來看一下"},{"start":1223.629,"end":1238.574,"text":"好 再請林委員掌握時間 我們已經按鈴六次了因為您的這個質詢問題很重要所以就是最後 麻煩對 也是希望最後可以在兩分鐘之內結束 謝謝好 來 媒體報導這個前幾天的報導"},{"start":1246.881,"end":1263.958,"text":"25年11月12號 17年前姐弟戀談分手 勒死他這次女友想分手 再勒斃他恐怖情人收押結果就有人來告訴我們了17年前的當事人的案件"},{"start":1265.492,"end":1282.137,"text":"他判刑18年但很多人想說這累犯耶而且顯然他的行為相當人格上有異常人家要跟他分手就勒逼他兩次了而且現在假釋期間還未滿就再勒逼另外一個女朋友然後我們就想說當事人"},{"start":1283.977,"end":1299.765,"text":"我們就告訴我們說 你知道這個18年前判決這一個理性男子18年的法官是誰 你知道嗎這個完全沒有涉及 不能公開喔這一個法官叫什麼名字 你知道嗎查詢不到"},{"start":1304.13,"end":1333.536,"text":"我們查詢了 查詢不到當事人有來陳情告訴我們18年前的案件查詢不到這個案件 你知道為什麼嗎因為這個法官現在是司法院的高官我就不要講了 昨天有在現場的司法院的高官啊怕人家查詢到這樣的案子名譽不好所以就讓我們查詢不到"},{"start":1336.55,"end":1362.141,"text":"你知道嗎我現在其實不是要講這個個案啦我現在是要告訴你們你們從這裡這個就是為什麼司法失去人民信任的主要核心你們還可以利用權力為高官把他的判決書不名譽的不符合國民感情的不符合社會期待的遮掩起來"},{"start":1363.743,"end":1371.369,"text":"違法的遮掩起來司法院的高官你自己回去看我剛剛跟你講了什麼案件日期報導媒體報導的我現在再問你喔"},{"start":1376.565,"end":1387.056,"text":"我想那個原因應該是有一些誤解司法院絕對不可能 因為就是說沒有誤解當事人的朋友來陳情然後他們就說是某個高官判決現在我們去查詢 查詢不到"},{"start":1396.525,"end":1406.391,"text":"本辦公室去查詢查詢不到好這不是我今天要質詢的主題我是說司法的官真敗壞就是這樣子我現在問你國民法官案件的證據調查你們書面報告給我的書面報告第二頁說有簡便雙方向法官說明證據的證明力我問你"},{"start":1415.857,"end":1420.439,"text":"在說明這個證據證明力的時候不就是會講到證據的內容嗎沒有講到證據的內容是要怎麼跟法官說明這個證據需要調查不講內容法官說沒有調查必要性就不調查了嗎講了內容請問法官不就預斷了嗎所以你父子妻女啊你如果怎麼做都不對啊"},{"start":1442.391,"end":1466.193,"text":"講內容也不行 不講內容也不行司法院這樣子父子妻離你都不覺得這個制度有問題嗎準備程序證據調查的申請由陳審的法官去負責要不要受理這個證據調查決定要不要證據調查不講內容跟講內容都不對啊我再問你 這樣子行嗎你說要回答讓你回答"},{"start":1467.7,"end":1491.131,"text":"來 你來講委員其實您提示這個就是一個證據開示的那個制度那它就是這樣子運作的這個不是只有在怎麼這樣子運作 你昨天沒有來國民法由陳審的法官去負責國民法官的證據調查方式如果是號稱事先不知悉案件內容的法官去負責"},{"start":1492.768,"end":1504.101,"text":"完全都不知道 那人家來請你做證據調查你簡直叫法官 這個法官他都不知道案情也不知道證據的關聯性 也不知道內容的話要嘛摸黑審理 要嘛瞎子摸象"},{"start":1506.123,"end":1521.859,"text":"要嘛就是法官已經預斷他看了他就是要預斷嘛要嘛他就什麼都搞不清楚不管他是產生預斷或者是什麼都搞不清楚因此而做成的證據要調查或不調查你們不覺得這樣子的制度設計有問題嗎"},{"start":1527.124,"end":1533.13,"text":"為什麼國民法官法第44條可以規定關於羈押的決定是由另一組法官處理而證據調查的決定卻不能夠比照辦理呢你們司法院都會講法律講求證據結果你們法官法的案件對於證據的調查要嘛太嚴格要嘛又太寬鬆寬鬆就算了如果採一個嚴格的標準"},{"start":1551.846,"end":1564.624,"text":"如果不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不符然後上訴之後還不能改判現在你知道法官都不知道案情內容那申請證據調查他怎麼判斷"},{"start":1567.368,"end":1572.772,"text":"所以這個證據是篩選過的呈現給國民法官看的證據麻煩一位委員可以再更簡短因為我們今天給你很多時間了好 謝謝 抱歉我講一下因為這個案件真的比較複雜呈現給國民法官看我們還有再一次的機會麻煩一分鐘呈現給國民法官看的證據是篩選過的由號稱不知案情的陳審法官決定的"},{"start":1590.026,"end":1618.879,"text":"而這樣的證據是篩選過的給國民法官看判決會公平嗎而且一審的判決到二審上訴之後法官不能改判欸不能改判欸然後你們不准人家救濟不准 如果你法官證據調查下不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴以後還不能改判這樣子的司法制度不是草菅人命嗎而且"},{"start":1619.819,"end":1624.724,"text":"國民法官審的都是重罪重罪 這個問題這麼多你們不覺得這個問題有問題嗎"},{"start":1630.288,"end":1650.805,"text":"報告委員 這邊簡單的回應一下委員的意見 回應一下委員的問題第一個有關於證據裁定的問題 基本上你說要照昨天給我的書面資料來回答就不用了不是這樣 原則上應該說在準備程序的時候為了要申請調查證據 本身並不會去朗讀相關的證據的內容給對方 你不要再這麼亂講了基本上只會依照他想要申請調查的證據所要預證明的那個代證事實跟"},{"start":1657.671,"end":1658.632,"text":"這個證據的證明沒有講內容法官怎麼知道要他的必要性"},{"start":1664.062,"end":1688.144,"text":"在哪裡講的內容以後不產生預斷嗎但我再問你什麼叫行政違卷行政違卷是稍微你有聽過行政違卷嗎我我我最後一題而已最後一個我兩分鐘抱歉不是我們已經行政違卷安排沒有人我只有兩分鐘我們今天已經真的時間稍微真的求求你我只有兩分鐘我最後"},{"start":1688.464,"end":1699.97,"text":"行政委卷 最後一個行政委員去趕快回答行政委卷 昭緯我想你也沒聽過他在國民法官法施行細則第136條第4項意思是法院去函查 函調回來的資料這個資料要編入行政委卷連副秘書長都沒有聽過為什麼這樣設計一定是因為說不要讓法官產生預斷這個叫做掩耳盜鈴啦"},{"start":1715.299,"end":1738.708,"text":"法院去含查 含調回來的資料送到法院法官第一個看到法官看到以後才會批示這個資料要編入行政委卷你們掩耳盜鈴你們法官明明看到了故意講一個名詞叫做行政委卷然後再欺騙人民說法官沒有看到喔"},{"start":1739.528,"end":1749.482,"text":"你們在說什麼 這樣子能夠增進國民對司法的信賴嗎你們說國民法官的案件 法官都沒有看到 不會預斷誰相信"},{"start":1753.047,"end":1761.074,"text":"報告委員有關行政委卷那相關於審判卷中那審判卷中這有編入審判卷中法官才會看那行政委卷的話我們會把它密封起來行政委卷就是交付到法官桌上然後要交付他交付到行政委卷法官你可以用道德約束法官不會翻開看如果行政委卷的資料只有一頁一頁就看光光如果是一堆他說我不敢翻開看你知道他有沒有翻開看有沒有翻開看 不知道"},{"start":1781.09,"end":1799.375,"text":"行政委員函查回來資料就寄到法院就是送到法官的桌上去批示放到行政委員我看過真正的卷宗我想對今天這個林委員其實提的很多的意見都非常重要我請司法院回去要好好的研析"},{"start":1799.735,"end":1818.629,"text":"是 副秘書長都沒有講半句話我現在在語重心長這樣講要推國民法官法你就把制度好好的設計理論面利益良善但執行起來存在這麼多的問題你們如果毫無反應還是本位主義你們都不願意思考和檢討犧牲當事人的權利再度破壞"},{"start":1819.369,"end":1823.612,"text":"人民對司法的信任啦好 謝謝李委員因為這個我想這個部分的話就之後再講了因為國民法官法的第六條的部分正好本席其實也提出了相關的修正案那麼很快大家就可以看到本席修正案就完全就是他也不只是第六條啦對 還有很多的問題但是確實在第六條的部分的話"},{"start":1841.603,"end":1860.458,"text":"這明明國民法官法的目的就是希望能夠對於重要的案子能夠召開國民法庭可是呢事實上在執行起來的時候變得很多都是不執行這的確是很多的問題所以也謝謝林委員今天的指教很多是在破壞國民法官的基本精神"},{"start":1860.558,"end":1876.677,"text":"沒錯好你們這個換一組法官來處理程序問題受理證據調查的決定與否那個不成審的法官可以完整的看到卷宗他可以知道因果他可以知道這個到底要不要准他調查"},{"start":1877.438,"end":1887.186,"text":"你們卻讓一個什麼都不知情的法官 成審的法官去處理這個問題這樣子對嗎然後你們在羈押的時候就換另一組法官了為什麼在證據調查上面不用換一組法官呢好 謝謝林委員我想這個問題真的很大那麼我們之後我們市委會會再安排相關的國民法官的專題報告好 那就謝謝今天這個秘書長"},{"start":1902.338,"end":1909.147,"text":"不要這樣子 強害現在正在進行國民法官程序審判的這些當事人的權利好 謝謝林委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}