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我想請部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好最近應該您也有看到因為我看到您有對新聞進行一些回應也就是我們現在被這個氣候變遷績效指標CGPI評為非常低的一個等級不好意思 幫我按一下下一張"},{"start":29.608,"end":43.056,"text":"那我們在這個排名是第59啦那我知道您對他有一些疑慮因為你對評分標準你可不可以簡短的講一下你認為他的評比為什麼對台灣不太公平"},{"start":44.808,"end":63.243,"text":"第一個是說他對於這個每個國家的這個人均的這個排碳的比的目標台灣很嚴格所以我們其實他把我們跟韓國跟日本都打得特別低可是你看到像印度啊或是根本沒有在減碳的國家都在我們前面他的容許值就比較很高這第一個"},{"start":63.843,"end":92.558,"text":"第二個是像這個如果要評這些東西你的排單量一直持續的增加我們持續往下減可是在他的這個指標分數裡面完全表現不出來最重要的是說因為我參加過國際這種評審他等於是把每一個人的成績單這不是考試喔是因為每一個人的考試是很單一的可是這個NDC是很複雜的如果可以很NDC排名排出來的話全世界無法排名的所以他把這個很定性的把它變成定量化"},{"start":93.178,"end":109.054,"text":"其實這個都需要評審委員還有一個副審的機制因為我參與過國際的副審類似的工作我做過所以我認為他這樣做他在台灣只有找幾位NGO的人士來代表那我有點懷疑說他的副審的機制是不是那麼的完整報案下一張"},{"start":110.427,"end":134.711,"text":"當然之前我看2021年你們也曾經抗議過這件事但我覺得比較麻煩的是說很多國際組織所統計出來的報告對我們的評分其實我們的環境部從2021年然後至今像上次的這個IQ air等等公布我們空污是全球第54名我們都會認為有爭議啦那我們認為有爭議也有我們的對於他的算法所不同的看法"},{"start":135.811,"end":161.841,"text":"那這邊的話我是想跟你具體的比較討論因為我看了整份環境部的報告那我發現說環境部的報告一直糾結在他的評分標準啊然後他的排名啊但是你卻沒有跟我們全國人民分析說其實他的報告後面有一整段的英文的建議所以我今天主要是想跟你討論一一的討論他英文的建議還有環境部在其中扮演的角色下一張"},{"start":163.697,"end":187.418,"text":"好我們看他一開始就在講說你剛提到的碳排我們從2005一直到2024其實是下降9.6%這也是你剛講的數據可是在CCPI他的認定10%是他的弱減量所以我們對於弱減量的目標都可能沒有辦法達成的話你有沒有什麼具體覺得你可以改進的地方"},{"start":188.291,"end":212.45,"text":"包委這個他們的建議也是國內的那三位的環團的專家寫提出的建議並不是CCPI他整體的建議這個就是他的問題他不是一個國際的專家一個統整的那個內容而是說每個在地的NGO被他那個國家自己打了一個分數這個就是他最大的問題但他裡面也有四個國際組織一起在評分其中也不乏你一直滿想加入的一些國際組織嘛"},{"start":214.612,"end":221.701,"text":"所以你覺得這樣子9.6你很滿意了當然他的算法9.6要不要請我們署長來說明一下"},{"start":223.223,"end":246.909,"text":"跟委員報告他其實他的評比裡面他的數據的部分的話他的溫室氣體排放量他不是以我們的下降的趨勢他是設計的每一個國家他自己設了一個人均的排放量來作為評對他把我們台灣設成說我們到2030年的人均是2.26但是英國他又把他設成是4點多所以是"},{"start":248.129,"end":265.448,"text":"就是我们在跟CCPI在讨论它不合理的地方你们有做一些回文吗你们有做一些回复吗给CCPI吗每一年你们都有回复它好 那我们下一张再来它这个也是给我们一个建议它的意思是说"},{"start":266.249,"end":295.749,"text":"我們由燃煤大幅的擴張LNG那他認為說我們在持續擴張LNG的使用削弱了整體的氣候的野心那他也說我們的政府是把天然氣包裝為乾淨的過度的燃料這個敘事具有誤導性所以在現行的政策中他認為我們是缺乏法律明定燃煤退場的時程也缺乏明確的化石燃料的減量的策略這一點我知道您"},{"start":296.389,"end":316.65,"text":"可能沒有辦法具體的去參與這件事但是你有沒有考慮跟經濟部還有國發會一同來討論包委員 這個German Watch它就是一個不大的NGO啦因為我十幾年前就有去跟他們argue他們評比每年都很奇怪啦我當面都有指責過 你去上網查我以前有問他過 例如說有一年英國"},{"start":317.37,"end":332.45,"text":"全部啟動核能他把它變成第一名那我說是不是核能的因素我就直接問他他也答得很奇怪那你覺得他給我們的建議是對的嗎因為他覺得我們沒有明定燃煤的退場時程這不是他的建議也缺乏化石的燃料減量的策略"},{"start":333.112,"end":352.887,"text":"他是針對他是這個那是三位本地的專家給的建議啦那基本上國際上對於這個LNG他的確還是一個過渡型的他相對的排汰量比較低然後他的這個比較乾淨一點點所以其實還是屬於一個過渡型的這個這個這個點是沒有錯但是他有他的他的意思說我們沒有時程"},{"start":353.707,"end":377.405,"text":"我们没有实诚具体的实诚我们有实诚我们到2030 2035甚至2050年那个能源配比都有一个目标所以你也没有觉得他这样子说我们过度包装成干净的过度燃料你也觉得他这件事情讲的不对其实他这个就是个人说的这个是the experts某些专家说的就是国内那三位专家说的好那我们下一张"},{"start":378.553,"end":394.852,"text":"下一張的話前面你可能也必須要跟交通部去做一些溝通跟協調當然他對於我們全面的電動化運具公車啊汽機車等等好建物的碳中和執行的進度嚴重的落後並且除了主要都市以外呢公共運輸仍不發達這一點"},{"start":397.395,"end":424.963,"text":"我知道你也很努力你也很努力可是交通部也必須要跟上你的腳步那再來他就提到再生能源了他說再生能源很嚴重的是緩慢而且前後不一致我們本來2025年希望可以達到25%到目前只有達到15%他講出來他也我覺得他對我們的政府也有蠻深入的了解他覺得台灣其實舊根本是電網的基礎老舊整合能力不足所以限制了再生能源的發展再來土地的使用爭議還有生態衝擊"},{"start":427.063,"end":439.488,"text":"以及這些種種的貪瀆醜聞使得公共信任不足還有一些綠能廠商他退出台灣的時候也對國際媒體做一些投書這些他們都有去看所以這點你認為我們有改進的空間嗎這當然有改進的空間"},{"start":443.449,"end":459.124,"text":"過去我們的對於太陽光電不管是地方在蓋章的時候太多人可以蓋要蓋三十幾個章所以也給很多人上下其所的機會所以也造成一些弊案我們也看到了所以這個行政院也積極在處理這個事情那當然啦過去的光電的這個爭議或是風電的這個評估"},{"start":462.647,"end":488.31,"text":"這個大家都過去都有討論那我們也同意那我認為這個時候是一個重新建立一個信心的方式我們還是需要綠電因為這次的這個協定裡面還是呼應COVID-28的這個再生能源還是要成長的好那以上我總結因為你可能需要找國發會經濟部交通部內政部去做一個協調跟整合你認為你有辦法在三個月內做這件事情還是你覺得我們需要一起跟行政院院長做討論"},{"start":490.375,"end":508.232,"text":"報告委員你是針對CCPI給我們的建議我認為CCPI給我們的建議我們就看一看參考而已我們有自己的NDC的路徑聽到現在我覺得你對於他的再生能源你是願意採納的其他的你認為其實他的評比方法有失公允"},{"start":509.232,"end":522.679,"text":"有些他是我必須說就是有時候做事情的人跟倡議的人這是不一樣的層次那我會參考他我們哪裡做得不夠會去看他但是他的是不是都對的有待討論好 下一張"},{"start":524.269,"end":542.423,"text":"上個禮拜立法院有三讀通過嘛關於這個光電板環評地質法還有環評法觀光條例等等的那當然我們會這樣做是因為B案爆發的速度趕不上環境部修訂執法的速度啦那針對比如說山坡地"},{"start":543.443,"end":567.315,"text":"之前覺得太寬鬆或者是以前比較模糊地帶的水面型光電以及這個地質敏感區國家風景區等等一併納入環評的範圍所以我想先請教部長你對於整體修法的看法簡短說就可以了我是認可說能夠加嚴但是我比較遺憾的是說這個數字並沒有經過科學的討論或是公眾的參與決定這個多少MW要環評"},{"start":568.752,"end":584.814,"text":"好 那第二個問題 下一張第二個問題當然也是會有人民會有點擔心行政院跟環境部會不會對這次立法院的修法提出複議因為你剛有講你剛有講一些理由所以你覺得你會不會對這次的修法提出複議"},{"start":586.108,"end":607.487,"text":"這個部分我還要尊重行政院的最後的決定但是我覺得很可惜的是說因為黃國昌委員提那個案子的時候在大院質詢我的時候他覺得那個量可以來討論可是我們的所有的執法在規劃的空間的時候原來那個都在執法訂的那個執法其實可以有公聽的機會各界都可以來參與現在只有一方的能夠決定就決定了所以沒有公眾的參與"},{"start":607.847,"end":626.622,"text":"我剛剛大概有跟你講了一下因為這個執法從你們說要修一直到修修修修修拖了其實蠻久的然後你們沒有給出一個明確的時間那現在有一些人可能民團他也是出來講話他會怕說這個環評會塞車所以我也想在這邊幫他們問我想要在這邊幫他們問我想問你過去一年大概有幾個廣點的環評案你們有審你現在手上有數據嗎"},{"start":634.708,"end":658.087,"text":"光天有退回去幾個 但是也跟委員報告你們大概一年省幾個 這個是我們想知道的數據有些一定的量 因為之前是只有針對山坡地我們去年今年1月修改的那那個之前是適用於別的主管 目的地事業機關的規定例如說農業部還有這個水保署等等的相關的一個規定所以他都有他的一個規定 不是不見得每一個都要送到環評"},{"start":659.048,"end":670.863,"text":"他不是說沒有環評我的意思是說你的量能因為有些人會怕你們的量能不足對於未來的環評量能不足所以想知道你過去大概一年是幾個案子未來會不會"},{"start":672.421,"end":694.53,"text":"目前只有三個啦但是未來如果按照委員這樣的話我們也擔心我們的同仁會爆糧因為三個大家對比看一些光電閉暗的新聞當然會覺得你一年才還平三個似乎也是顯得比較少嘛所以當然我們這邊是積極要幫你爭取喔我們是希望你未來就增加你的量能增加你的人手增加你的預算我們也希望你好好去做還平嘛"},{"start":695.33,"end":710.711,"text":"另外在政黨協商的時候次長曾經有說到說這個地質敏感脆弱區等等名詞沒有明確的定義這邊我也想請部長來說明一下針對次長的這個疑慮你覺得有沒有辦法利用韓式來做一個解決"},{"start":713.699,"end":721.902,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個地質敏感地區最後在立法院三讀的再修正的動議裡面其實已經有做一個比較明確的一個定義了因為本來是比較不明確那之後後來通過的這個法案裡面他其實是有很明確的依照地質法的規定是只有限定在地質遺跡地質敏感區跟山崩地滑的地質敏感區"},{"start":736.946,"end":751.587,"text":"所以這個現在在執行上就比較沒有問題因為我看到其他的部門農業部海委會他們也一樣也都可以針對地質敏感區有一些定義部長我看你咳嗽所以最後一個只要很簡短的回答我們就好了"},{"start":752.588,"end":781.408,"text":"這個母法呢因為技術問題所以我們那一天並沒有把這個國家公園列入可是接下來因為你們會依照三讀的結果來修執法可是執法你們原本裡面有這個國家公園的條款所以也有很多環團擔心法律真空的議題比如說你們在連帶修執法的時候會把國家公園相關的條款就誤刪了那變成三不管地帶可能會是個巨大的災難這點我也想請部長講一下有沒有可能會有這樣子的事情發生"},{"start":782.609,"end":802.746,"text":"不會啦 這個國家公園任何一個開發是嚴到不行的所以這個 他們想太多了啦這個實質上食物不是這個樣子的對 所以它之後還會保留在你們的脂肪當中這個本來就在我們裡面都會有啦但是我們也跟委員報告因為那個討論齁 這個到底光電環評等於是多少的量要多少我們現在變成全世界最嚴格的"},{"start":803.72,"end":818.084,"text":"其實我們是給你一個權利讓你去管轄因為之前你的權利偏少你這一整年來奔波你想想有多少都是因為環境的議題好 那我也希望我們未來可以合作那祝你早日康復謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請王韻"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}