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山結角空庫進而無劣數市固定資產建設改良擴充原列六十一億兩百四十萬四千元減列台北榮民總醫院固定資產建設改良擴充向下一般建築及設備計畫中分聯性項目台北榮民總醫院加速氣型膨中子補貨治療以兩億六千萬元"},{"start":1938.141,"end":1960.318,"text":"其餘均造列改列為58億4,240萬4千元國庫增撥基金額無劣數6.通過決議24項2.114年度中央政府總預算案國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會主管國軍退儲役官兵安置基金及榮民醫療作業基金附屬單位預算審查完畢審查結果送財政委員會"},{"start":1961.578,"end":1982.312,"text":"會總後提報院會不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由沈昭吉博委員博洋出席說明三有關委員提案內容及文字及金額再不影響提案原意下授權議事人員修正處理宣讀完畢好 請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1983.527,"end":2011.704,"text":"報告事項 邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出國家情報工作及國家安全局業務報告並被質詢宣讀完畢今天在場的委員我們陳永康委員以上我介紹一下議會的貴賓這是國家安全局局長蔡明彥局長"},{"start":2015.203,"end":2039.845,"text":"憲兵指揮部指揮官鄭真祥指揮官資通電軍指揮部指揮官毛建秋政治作戰局局長陳玉玲電信發展室主任郭志果"},{"start":2042.182,"end":2058.272,"text":"京師情報局執行長鄧敦仁京師安全總隊總隊長汪世維介紹海洋委員會的海巡署署長張中榮巡防組組長廖雲紅"},{"start":2071.977,"end":2096.086,"text":"情報組組長廖德勝特別行動資源中心主任林天佑介紹內政部警政署署長張榮鑫刑事局警察局局長周又偉"},{"start":2099.468,"end":2120.252,"text":"保安組組長范志坤防治組組長陳久志介紹內政部移民署署長鍾景坤國際級執法事務組組長江玲"},{"start":2131.229,"end":2155.538,"text":"人事國事組入處國事務組組長 林怡俊移民事務組組長 許雲介紹法務部部長 法務部調查局局長 陳百利"},{"start":2157.995,"end":2166.2,"text":"國家安全維護處長葉立欽國內安全調查處長陳瑜元保方處處長林天靜資通安全處處長張宥仁張宥仁好以上"},{"start":2186.534,"end":2189.535,"text":"補充介紹我們陳俊宜委員請問在場的委員對於上次的會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有好那議事錄確定"},{"start":2212.947,"end":2235.649,"text":"本日會議邀請國安局局長率相關情報機關所長提出國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告並被質詢報告區分為公開及機密兩個部分才先公開後秘密報告詢答先秘密後公開時間並進"},{"start":2239.056,"end":2259.142,"text":"本会委员6加2分钟非本会委员5分钟那10点30分发言登记决止如有临时提案对于10点30分前提出11点左右处理现在请蔡局长上台就公开部分进行报告"},{"start":2274.199,"end":2297.166,"text":"好謝謝主席主席在場各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早那今天非常榮幸可以協同國安情報團隊的首長向大院來提報我們今年上半年的義務報告那現在緊究國家安全情勢的分析以及今年工作的重點方向跟各位委員先進進行提報第一大部分是有關於國家安全情勢的分析一當前的重要情勢瓜福無一"},{"start":2297.766,"end":2318.118,"text":"川普的新政牽動到全球政經局勢的變化那美國川普政府在今年的一月上任之後秉持美國優先的理念來推動各項的對內以及對外的政策並且積極地來推出以哈、厄烏的停戰主要目的就在集中資源來應對中共潛在的威脅在印太地區的部分美國也在美日的峰會、美日韓的外長會議以及G7的外長會議當中不斷地在強調"},{"start":2321.28,"end":2349.371,"text":"台海和平穩定的重要性同時也展現反對片面以武力或脅迫的手段改變現狀的基本的一個政策立場那另外川普政府也宣布來對外進行貿易跟相關的投資政策包括提高了各國在鋼、鋁、汽車關稅至25%並且對各國來課徵10%到50%的對等關稅希望能夠來引導相關的製造業回流到美國來增加美國國內的就業機會那中共也利用這個機會來誘拉各個國家"},{"start":2351.272,"end":2363.537,"text":"希望能夠來加強跟中共的經貿合作關係希望透過所謂的笑臉攻勢來建第一美盟圍堵中共的壓力以便來繼續鞏固中共跟全球南方國家彼此之間的合作關係的緊密度"},{"start":2364.775,"end":2380.95,"text":"瓜虎二,中共內部的金色情勢相當嚴峻我們觀察到國際的相關的性貧或財務的機構在評估中共的經濟所存在的問題時他們特別指出來主要的問題包括有產能過剩、通膨緊縮"},{"start":2382.111,"end":2401.486,"text":"消費跟投資的動能不足以及外資撤離等等問題那今年對中國經濟成長率的預測也下調到4%到4.6%之間的一個區段那低於中共自己本身官方所公布的5%預期達到的經濟成長的目標那另外中共的經濟持續的不振那也"},{"start":2402.547,"end":2417.236,"text":"導致的遭到欠薪減薪的族群由傳統的農民工開始擴展到所謂的公務員醫護人員以及金融業等等那在去年爆發有超過3000起的民眾陳抗事件當中可以看到有超過75%都是跟中國大陸民眾經濟權益受損有關"},{"start":2421.318,"end":2440.111,"text":"那另外因為經濟長期的疲軟也衝擊到中共地方財政的收入加重了常在的一個負擔那同時在這過程當中我們也注意到中共在去年查處有將近八十九萬名的官員其中包括有七十三名的省部級以上的領導幹部規模達到習近平主政以來最大的規模"},{"start":2441.392,"end":2452.143,"text":"刮虎山共軍的海空擴權威脅到我們整體的區安全在經濟不振債務規模不斷攀升之下中共在今年還是編列的國防預算高達有1.78兆人民幣的"},{"start":2455.206,"end":2476.846,"text":"規模那連續三年的成長率都達到7.2%那都超過了他們經濟成長的一個增幅叫我們來把國防預算跟經濟成長率來做比較的話那中共持續來加強在周邊海空擴權的行動在去年就協同俄羅斯在西太平洋日本海從事有兩次的空中跟兩次的海上聯合戰略巡航的動作並且貫穿"},{"start":2478.627,"end":2507.559,"text":"相關日本跟韓國的防控識別區也就是所謂的ADIZ那另外在今年的二月下旬也第一次在澳洲還有紐西蘭周邊的海域來進行無預警的實彈射擊的演練在南海地區的部分我們也看到中共綜合運用到共軍海警公務船舶複合式的侵擾來脅迫南海周邊地區的一個國家引發國際社會高度的關注第二大部分是有關於我國國安的一個威脅瓜胡一"},{"start":2508.154,"end":2532.837,"text":"共軍擴增台海威澤的力度共軍在去年對台實施聯合力艦2024A、B等等的軍事演習同時也執行了有40次的聯合戰備警巡希望藉由擴增夜間的訓練的頻次來增加晝夜滯空、滯海的作戰能量同時共機在全年侵入我國防空識別區也達到了3070架次之多"},{"start":2533.337,"end":2549.509,"text":"比前一年也就是2023年的1703架次增加有將近八成之多那在今年的3月17號共軍也第一次來實施單日有兩度的聯合戰備警巡的一個活動那在今年的4月1號跟2號更先後的來展開"},{"start":2550.49,"end":2567.793,"text":"東部戰區的聯合演訓以及所謂海峽雷霆2025A等等對台的軍事演訓的活動希望來透過相關的演訓活動來擴大對台灣的文攻武嚇的一個效應那另外中共也不斷地來變化灰色地帶侵擾的一個手法包括擴大運用無人機"},{"start":2568.494,"end":2596.733,"text":"海警船、海巡船、海釣船、漁船、全一輪等等頻繁地在我國的本外島周邊的水域來進行活動那其中海警船侵入到我們金門外島的水域編隊的巡航在去年總計有52次之多在今年到3月21日為止已經有11次之多那相關的一個侵擾的活動也迫使我國必須要相應地來派遣跟監的兵力那耗損我國相關應處的資源"},{"start":2598.534,"end":2627.073,"text":"關乎中共對我國的滲透手法越居多元那在這部分本局統計2020年到今天為止共諜案起訴人數總計有159人那其中現役跟退役的軍人總計達到95人之多佔比是60%那滲透手法主要是透過退役拉攏現役網路勾連金錢利誘債務脅迫等等的方式全面的來對我國的軍事單位以及政府機關進行滲透"},{"start":2628.574,"end":2643.716,"text":"同時中共也運用國人發展相關的武裝的內應圖謀來在武力犯台的同時可以來在台灣的內部協助共軍來展開相關的行動那共軍鎖定的希望能夠吸納的一個"},{"start":2644.938,"end":2671.191,"text":"人員已經不再侷限是我們國軍的高階軍官從2020年到現在為止我們所看到的是因為共諜案而遭到起訴的95名的現退役軍人其中當中有46人是軍官27人是士官以及22人是士兵那相關的一個國軍階級分佈跟佔比可以凸顯到中共對台的滲透手法已經越來越多元跟全面"},{"start":2672.305,"end":2686.828,"text":"關湖山中共拼命的對我國來進行妄害還有竊資在去年到目前為止我國政府的服務網每天達到侵害的一個次數有219萬餘次之多那以中共"},{"start":2687.989,"end":2708.498,"text":"網軍所發動的侵害活動為主那整體的網攻的威脅我們看到有兩個重點第一個部分是呈現到特定的議題的結合配合到網害的行動那第二部分是結合到中共我們剛剛跟各位介紹的戰訓的布式再結合到網路侵害的活動那目的就是來透過這些活動強化對台灣在網路威懾的一個"},{"start":2709.338,"end":2723.267,"text":"相關的一個效果那我們的政府跟國防領域過去曾經遭害的一個資料也都被中共的駭客不斷的在翻新還有重複的販售來炒作那主要的目的就在打擊我們政府在資安領域的一個威信"},{"start":2724.608,"end":2747.18,"text":"廣武市中共加大散布正義訊息混淆國人的認知我們國安團隊從今年到現在為止所收獲的徵訊已經有51萬余折之多另外掌握到異常的帳號有3600余組之多主要集中在臉書跟TikTok這些所謂的社群平台中共也同時運用到官媒、自媒體"},{"start":2748.46,"end":2766.37,"text":"網軍的集團還有一些協力的公關公司搭配到異常帳號來帶動輿論的風向那試圖對我國來進行認知作戰那我們也發現到在整個過程當中中共對於AI工具來輔助操作徵訊的深層跟散布似乎已經變成一個越來越頻繁的一個趨勢"},{"start":2767.791,"end":2791.801,"text":"第二大部分跟各位委員先進所提報的是有關於今年本局工作的主要的重點方向一我們會精進戰略趨勢的研判拓展我們的國際情報合作那在這部分我們會持續的來拓展跟國際友盟的溝通還有情報的合作以便來提升國安情報團隊戰略延伸的能量希望能夠來先期的掌握戰略預警強化共同至終聯防的一個能量"},{"start":2792.81,"end":2810.203,"text":"第二,掌收中共統戰的情緒,全力查辦,增防的一個案件。在這部分,我們會持續的來強化,並且來建構檢查機關、調查機關、情報機關跟軍中保防機關之間的協作關係,提升我們偵辦國安案件的一個量能。"},{"start":2811.175,"end":2833.337,"text":"第三,我們會來優化我們治安協作的機制,前瞻保密安全的韌性。本局會持續的來優化我們治安防護協作的機制,掌收國內外的網安威脅預警的情資。另外,我們也為了要來確保我們相關的保密情傳鏈路安全暢通,會持續的來強化政府保密網路通聯的韌性以及安全性。"},{"start":2834.378,"end":2851.833,"text":"第四 我們會來厚植徵訊防制的硬杵深化國際交流合作本局已經建立起全自動化的收眼平台那我們會持續的來優化我們徵訊防制的能量同時也持續的來深化國際合作的交流活動共同來遏制中共對我國在徵訊散佈所引發的相關威脅"},{"start":2854.195,"end":2874.799,"text":"第五 我們會綿密各項警衛的部署構建整體危安的防護那本局會協同我們國安情報團隊持續地來掌搜各類危安的預警以及應處緊急突發的狀況以便來綿密我們各項警衛部署的工作確保安危對象絕對安全最後一部分是有關於捷運面臨到全球地緣政治"},{"start":2875.279,"end":2892.862,"text":"跟區域安全情勢複雜多變我們國安情報團隊會持續的來跟政府各部會通力合作並且來推升跟國際友盟的情報夥伴關係以便來建構更為堅韌的國家安全情報網絡那以上的報告敬請各位委員先進持續給我們的一些批評跟指教謝謝"},{"start":2895.879,"end":2922.5,"text":"廣遠 廣遠"},{"start":3876.845,"end":3876.866,"text":"好"},{"start":3943.369,"end":3949.637,"text":"現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答請第一位羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3973.051,"end":3986.082,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長好 謝謝主席 各位很早"},{"start":3990.812,"end":4003.642,"text":"首先要跟局長探討的是這兩天全球的股災川普的關稅政策造成全球股市跌跌不休"},{"start":4008.286,"end":4022.104,"text":"當然台灣也沒有辦法倖免那川普他克正這個高關稅的理由那除了說要迫使這個工業跟製造業回流到美國要重塑全球貿易跟產業的這個供應鏈之外那也要迫使這個貿易國"},{"start":4027.45,"end":4049.212,"text":"來重啟這個談判可是本席呢認為還有更重要的一點應該就是戰略盟友的這個重新的這個篩選那再來就是要強迫全球來做這個選邊站那當然針對這一題因為你英國局長您是這個全球的戰略專家所以本席可能待會很希望就聽到您的一些見解跟一些方向"},{"start":4049.813,"end":4076.171,"text":"那當然美國這麼做他希望就是說迫使全球的這個貿易國來選邊站來消除這個模糊空間那希望就是能夠建立一個很明確的美國經濟安全的這個陣營那今天呢我在國安局的這個夜報裡面也有看出來就是說國安局其實有點出來了與此同時呢其實中國呢他也是在加強推動跟像英國、日本、印度、南韓、澳洲等國的這個接觸來修補"},{"start":4077.572,"end":4103.865,"text":"跟這些國家的這些關係那再來呢他對這個歐洲日本南韓我們也看到就是說他跟38國呢當方面來開放這個免簽等等那這種種手段我們都看得出說其實中國呢未來是要來強化拉攏其他國家來對抗美國的這個這個手段那作為台灣覺得台灣非常的小可是呢我們卻是半導體產業的重中之重那在未來"},{"start":4105.046,"end":4130.976,"text":"美中兩強在經濟上也好政治上也好他們所推動的這個陣營重組呢那到底台灣要如何來自處台灣要如何來面對那當然面對這一次的股災顧問其實很擔心我們會不會1930年代的這大蕭條那是不是會重新重演那面對這一局呢台灣對台灣來講到底是轉機還是危機所以局長你如何來看這一局"},{"start":4131.929,"end":4161.169,"text":"我想委員的問題是大概有三個部分第一個部分是川普關稅政策背後的動機第二部分是中共怎麼因應第三部分是台灣怎麼樣在過程當中有自我的經貿戰略的定位那就川普的動機來講我想委員剛剛的說明也非常的清楚他希望推動美國的再工業化那透過關稅的政策來使各國可以加大在美國的投資那讓美國這邊可以增加他的一個相關的一個就業率那他是有一個內外的一個"},{"start":4162.39,"end":4178.089,"text":"評估的一個考量在裡面那中共的部分我們剛剛也提到了他開始去拉攏透過這種所謂的笑臉攻勢來改善跟相關國家的一個關係那也希望透過這樣的一個過程能夠來特別強化他跟南方國家"},{"start":4178.87,"end":4208.27,"text":"全球南方國家彼此之間在經貿上的一個連結那後續我覺得可能在國際上要注意到的我剛也跟我們的媒體朋友說明一方面是美中之間的關稅戰會不會持續的升溫那第二部分是保護主義的浪潮會不會在國際經貿體系再現那第三個部分就有關於可能在整個新的一個發展過程當中會不會有雙邊跟多邊的FTA的倡議會有更多國家來提出來這也是要觀察的重點"},{"start":4209.03,"end":4226.455,"text":"就我國的一個本身的因應來講剛剛媒體朋友也在關注第一個部分我想我們提出來的並不是一個報復的措施我們提出來的是具體的解決方案所以總統也整合到我們的服務院的團隊有跟企業界包括高科技的產業以及傳統產業不斷地座談"},{"start":4228.275,"end":4243.133,"text":"來了解到這樣的關稅政策可能對我們產業產生的衝擊是什麼在了解之後再提出了相關的應應做法包括短期怎麼樣有一些應急的措施中長期也有一個比較長期的產業佈局來維持我們產業的競爭力那第二部分我剛剛也跟媒體說明"},{"start":4244.754,"end":4263.985,"text":"總統也指示我們要啟動我們的戰略溝通台美之間所以我們在週末的時候已經跟美方來表達我們對於進行關稅協商的一個立場還有一些提議那美方也由他們的白宮的資深官員對外證實台美已經有啟動這樣的一個溝通的機制那第三個部分是我們怎麼樣來"},{"start":4266.026,"end":4285.036,"text":"針對台美後續可能展開的關稅的協商來做準備那這部分總統跟府院團隊已經召開非常非常多次的會議那包括怎麼樣來啟動所謂的零關稅的協商那以及來撤除所謂的非關稅的障礙那另外也涉及到怎麼樣來避免洗產地或加強這個所謂的"},{"start":4288.638,"end":4305.775,"text":"出口管制的一個機制那同時來加大對美的投資跟採購那大概我們的一個方案是還蠻完整的所以假如有機會可以啟動台美的關稅協商的話我相信雙方應該很容易就可以對焦那能夠有一些比較快的一個進展來推動這大概是我們初步的觀察"},{"start":4306.315,"end":4331.001,"text":"局長我們跟台美之間我們要啟動這個談判的這個時機那當然我昨天也看到媒體有報導就是說我們可能在排序上面不會是很前面我們可能會比較後面所以局長你認為這個部分因為我剛剛有提到就是說我們作為這個半導體的這個重中之重那當然我在想這部分我們跟美國的談判的這個時機點你認為說會是在什麼時候然後這個"},{"start":4334.283,"end":4342.857,"text":"高關稅的這個這個波動到底會不會有一個以你的情節來講會不會有沒有一個時間點會在什麼時候收斂這個部分"},{"start":4346.762,"end":4368.713,"text":"在這部分來講我們所知道的因為現在有很多國家應該以美國官方的說法已經有七十幾個國家希望跟美國來進行相關的關稅協商就我們所知道的他們正在做蠻密集的開會在做必要的評估那有一些比較優先的名單那我們也是期待台灣可以很快的在優先名單當中那讓雙方盡快來啟動相關的協商談判OK 好"},{"start":4373.126,"end":4402.177,"text":"那這一題先到這裡因為我還有第二題我想要邀請的是我們調查局我們陳局長你也先留步喔因為這個部分跟剛剛我們局長的報告也有關係就提到就是說有關這個共諜案剛剛我們局長的報告就是說從2020年開始到現在我們共諜案起訴的人數總共有159人那其中呢現役跟退役的軍人有"},{"start":4403.178,"end":4429.08,"text":"95人 非常的高佔了這個共諜案的60%所以現在我們也看到就是說不管是軍人也好或政府機關其實被滲透是非常嚴重的那本席要提到就是說其實上個禮拜就發生了這個國會助理被滲透的事情當然這事情也發生在我的前助理的這個身上我想請教就是調查局這裡我想你們跟蹤你們在跟蹤一個涉案人"},{"start":4429.72,"end":4450.996,"text":"涉案人絕對不是一天兩天尤其是一年兩年是三年四年的時間可是各個辦公室其實在徵聘這一個助理的時候其實看的也就是他的履歷我們從履歷上面根本看不到看不出來他曾經涉及什麼案子可是我在想國安單位應該是知道的因為這部分沒有辦法就是說"},{"start":4452.197,"end":4466.393,"text":"你們在追蹤這個事案的時候可以給辦公室我想所有不管是執政黨也好在野黨也好面臨這種問題的時候當他應聘進來的助理其實有涉及這個國安問題有沒有辦法去做一個警示"},{"start":4467.355,"end":4486.209,"text":"有沒有辦法給辦公室做一個警示跟委員報告因為這個涉及到刑事訴訟法有關偵查不公開的問題所以在案件執行之前提供這樣子的示警在法律上對我們來說是有限制的所以你們的做法會是什麼呢就是說靜觀其變嗎"},{"start":4487.63,"end":4502.985,"text":"我們當然在希望能夠在最短的時間內把這個案件偵破那我們的目的其實是要瓦解是要瓦解他的這個危害的產生所以我們會用最快的方式然後盡最大的努力去對這個對象來做調查"},{"start":4506.198,"end":4522.129,"text":"所以因為最近也跟各個辦公室在討論之前大家就會覺得說 哇 這種完全是防不設防因為你們有辦案的這個方式那辦公室也不知情所以當然就是會在毫無知情的情況之下你可能就是應聘了 可能就涉案的這個助理"},{"start":4523.57,"end":4544.155,"text":"所以對辦公室未來可能就是在應聘助理的時候難道像尤其是我們是國防外交的委員就是每次在應聘助理的時候就要請示一下國安單位這個助理的背景嗎這有辦法做到嗎我想這個部分可能就是在特殊查核的部分有在讓他在健全"},{"start":4545.795,"end":4572.761,"text":"的一個努力的空間目前我們有執行這個涉及到國家安全以及重大利益的這些公務人員的特殊查核不過他是正面表列的目前大概有1328個職位是必須要特殊查核但是這1328不含國會助理那當然我們可能有些助理有些僱員他們可能不知道說這種涉及這個供給滲透這個"},{"start":4575.702,"end":4603.277,"text":"這個案子是多麼嚴重的一件事情所以我在想說未來我們國安單位可以跟像政府機關也好或相關單位來做一個提供一個反滲透的一個課程針對這一個公務人員啊助理啊等等是是對我是想想說這個可能是需要進行的啦這個部分可以是是OK好以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員上台的質詢第二位是西角星委員上台質詢"},{"start":4615.569,"end":4621.677,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了"},{"start":4626.428,"end":4653.584,"text":"好 謝謝主席 薛委員早好 早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜 匪諜 匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中"},{"start":4654.484,"end":4674.062,"text":"包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你 邱氏緣有沒有"},{"start":4679.278,"end":4693.498,"text":"沒有 他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊 沒有 我就問有沒有嘛我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱志文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有"},{"start":4694.178,"end":4719.407,"text":"沒有辦法說明案件黃曲榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中尋發動搜索傳訊邱、吳、黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情"},{"start":4722.09,"end":4740.708,"text":"包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快"},{"start":4742.469,"end":4755.162,"text":"匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":4758.365,"end":4769.978,"text":"我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好"},{"start":4773.622,"end":4792.253,"text":"邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金"},{"start":4798.917,"end":4812.504,"text":"那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角"},{"start":4815.666,"end":4828.949,"text":"他在分享鯉魚點演書的時候分享很多說鯉魚點他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃曲榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽"},{"start":4840.191,"end":4845.773,"text":"那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是吳曲榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意那此時呢 這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了"},{"start":4862.398,"end":4875.993,"text":"他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統"},{"start":4884.702,"end":4903.742,"text":"出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人"},{"start":4904.463,"end":4928.865,"text":"因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講"},{"start":4930.006,"end":4949.333,"text":"那這個他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份"},{"start":4951.495,"end":4975.073,"text":"這是委員自己的評論我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題"},{"start":4975.996,"end":5001.197,"text":"沒有啊這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下我提醒你還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有有些資料沒有沒有這是外交部的網站上面IEAT提供然後呢右邊是新境界文化小組國防政策小組的2015年的五月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的"},{"start":5001.537,"end":5019.157,"text":"所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報"},{"start":5019.938,"end":5045.134,"text":"所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免、大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修、楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號、綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案"},{"start":5047.495,"end":5065.242,"text":"然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到"},{"start":5066.722,"end":5089.64,"text":"機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":5091.843,"end":5108.777,"text":"我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經說了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決"},{"start":5109.477,"end":5137.107,"text":"OK 好 再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣 王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員"},{"start":5138.527,"end":5165.245,"text":"好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢"},{"start":5165.865,"end":5184.2,"text":"那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼"},{"start":5195.134,"end":5216.893,"text":"我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員"},{"start":5219.779,"end":5229.874,"text":"這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話"},{"start":5231.813,"end":5256.318,"text":"但假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關的查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共"},{"start":5259.119,"end":5266.105,"text":"那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告對 這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問"},{"start":5281.178,"end":5297.364,"text":"公開的指涉在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎"},{"start":5299.358,"end":5307.065,"text":"對,假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話,建議委員可以提告不是不是,我要問你的觀點,不是提告的觀點假如真的有,假如真的有的話,我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎?我今天已經告訴你啦,我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜,那國安局不需要調查嗎?"},{"start":5324.246,"end":5329.289,"text":"已經有人公開提供啦 全民任性委員會的顧問就有三個人他告訴你 他告訴國安局 告訴相關單位告訴所有的人 說許曉鑫 各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人 是匪諜然後呢 說我們是地下黨員 是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的"},{"start":5352.6,"end":5374.378,"text":"你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎政治人物之間的政治攻防他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問"},{"start":5377.6,"end":5400.601,"text":"他不是只是政治人物 他還是文化總會的執行委員他不是 他是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果他都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎"},{"start":5401.341,"end":5425.073,"text":"對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律要求的話我給你七天的時間來調查我反而我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問"},{"start":5428.038,"end":5434.9,"text":"無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止"},{"start":5449.784,"end":5453.426,"text":"對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嘛這是事實的問題嘛沒有沒有沒有這個不是操作這是事實的問題你如果有調查到或者是說我曾經發表過"},{"start":5478.041,"end":5482.402,"text":"你們認為有超過所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎這不是政治的操作這是我本人請問你們有沒有認為認定我有介入到國安相關的法律我們真的有設法的話我們會介入"},{"start":5503.306,"end":5513.214,"text":"所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入調查我本人我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員"},{"start":5532.762,"end":5555.603,"text":"有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以假如是正在這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好 所以有可能嘛對不對我沒有辦法回答因為這是假設性的問題好 有可能嘛好 謝謝這是委員的詮釋我們沒有認可好 請回謝謝市長 新委員的上台質詢"},{"start":5567.79,"end":5571.373,"text":"好那我們下一位請黃仁昭委進行質詢有請蔡局長回調查局局長好那我們請這個蔡局長以及調查局局長好謝謝主席黃委員早早"},{"start":5592.878,"end":5617.578,"text":"我們現在提到的是能言安全對防衛韌性的重要性在賴總統去年的宣布成立全社會防衛韌性委員會顯然賴總統將國家安全以及對抗中共壓力的層面擴展到社會、民生、經濟、精神力等方面的那請教一下"},{"start":5618.632,"end":5630.702,"text":"局長你認為確保能源安全以強化國防韌性是否有正相關當然我想能源安全是整體的國家安全重要的一環好"},{"start":5633.178,"end":5650.907,"text":"為什麼要談到這個就是要提出台灣面臨的挑戰中關係到能源安全的部分有三個弱點第一個台灣自產的煤油天然氣等能源有限以油為例我們自產佔比率值3.3%整體能源將近有97.3%來自於進口"},{"start":5660.251,"end":5674.941,"text":"第二,台灣是海島,外購能源只透過海陸進口,取得路徑極度受限。第三,與中國大陸距離非常近,海運航路存在極高的潛戰風險。"},{"start":5681.805,"end":5707.103,"text":"封控台海周邊就可以知道以上的弱點美國也注意到AIT處長古麗妍日前接受媒體的專訪的時候指出洗脫台灣及美國公司非常擔心台灣能源問題美國可以給台灣包含核能的可靠能源來源她還特別強調核能的重要性"},{"start":5707.703,"end":5736.629,"text":"关于核能放盐全世界可以看到包含美国日本在内都有复振复兴使用核能的状况这是由于很多公司需要有稳定的积载电力尤其在数据中中芯等AI相关产业上一个会议本席和许多同仁对于国防部的议算提出"},{"start":5737.569,"end":5765.326,"text":"煽动提案这是基于立委的职责但是切不断的执政党的造谣说南白立委这是这个煽动国防议算是在弱化我国的经历是在受中共的指示习近平高兴那现在我们在这里确定的能演的安全和国家的安全高度正相关所以依照民进党的逻辑"},{"start":5766.726,"end":5790.466,"text":"弱化台湾的能源安全就是弱化国家的安全而民进党长久以来一直反对核能这个可靠的积载电力来源那废除核四后台湾的能源安全陷入了极度的不安定那按照民进党的逻辑本席有理由相信民进党正在弱化我国的"},{"start":5790.926,"end":5819.856,"text":"防衛任性配合中共圍台窮台的戰略目標配合中共打擊台灣經濟民生習近平會非常的高興原來最大的在地協力者是民進黨你認為呢我想政府一直在推動能源的多元化委員在圖表上面也有特別指出來像在綠能的部分跟燃氣的部分大概都是現在政府在推動能源多元化這幾年來的一個努力的方向"},{"start":5820.973,"end":5849.335,"text":"所以你認為我們對於國防的軍力的煽動的部分是對我們藍牌藍牌有些不公平的地方因為有些地方是福報或者說福編的當然我們今天要強力的監督我們的軍備我們的戰力跟我們的經過是不是有精準的你們的計算裡面然後讓我們的這預算能夠"},{"start":5850.704,"end":5851.611,"text":"戳在刀口上"},{"start":5852.648,"end":5880.351,"text":"所以今天我們講的,剛剛我們徐巧欣委員也特別講在這個國安局今天的報告中提到中共對我滲透手法越趨多言加上近期爆發多起疑似民進黨人士遭中共情治單位吸收成為供點的案件確實發現中共的滲透不只是手法多言對象也非常的多言所以我們疑似供點的民進黨人士的無謀"},{"start":5883.272,"end":5901.176,"text":"總統府辦公室的姿意聖母還有秋母和黃母在目前來講請問一下這個案件掌握涉案人數層級以及所涉及的機密或情質範圍有沒有進一步的擴大趨勢另外"},{"start":5905.496,"end":5929.714,"text":"請教這個是案件是屬於個案的程度還是屬於系統性的案子對跟委員說明一下因為共諜案它涉及到的是背叛國家跟傷害國家的意義所以就我們國安情報團隊來講只要有相關的事證或跡象的話我們一定會啟動我們的機制來做全面的清查不分黨派也不管他是什麼樣的職務那也才會有一些共諜案"},{"start":5930.274,"end":5947.701,"text":"不斷的被偵辦那我們在夜報當中也去提到在過去這五年就159位遭到起訴那後續來講我想我們努力的重點一方面是速辦第二方面是嚴懲我們希望加強相關偵辦的一個速度達到一個嚇阻的效果"},{"start":5948.061,"end":5969.125,"text":"不但能夠呈案而且能夠定罪那第二部分要嚴懲的話有涉及到法律可能有必須要再做進一步強化的部分那這部分我們跟法務部也有在討論怎麼樣針對現在的國安法制的一些條文有比較模糊的地方再做一些必要的修正到時候假如有送到貴院來希望大院能夠來給予支持好 請教一下這是系統性的案件"},{"start":5970.765,"end":5992.777,"text":"就我們共諜案來講大概中共對台的相關的共諜或統戰的滲透它本來就是有系統的,它們都是全面的因為現在已經多區區域的多元化,區項也多元化了它面對所選擇性的都已經是包羅萬象所以是不是已經是作為一個系統性的一個案件了,對不對"},{"start":5993.537,"end":6011.385,"text":"對 中共對台的這些相關的共諜的部署或在地協力者的組織的發展確實有它的一個系統性還有步驟的在推動這是為什麼我們就國安單位來講我們自己覺得這樣的一個挑戰非常的大法制面還有在查處面我們都必須要整合我們團隊的力量來進行查處"},{"start":6012.566,"end":6038.787,"text":"所以既然已經系統性的案件裡面來講的話這個就是我們國安特別特別的注意到因為它是區域多元化而且面對的不分政黨而且是尤其是目前民進黨人士裡面的全面清查不分黨派那法務局長請回法官好局長請回沒有了那我想請教一下海巡署"},{"start":6046.54,"end":6056.706,"text":"委員好請問一下署長 是不是聽到署裡面人員對於加薪有所期望的聲音那另外就是近期媒體探討國軍軍職人員薪資調高海巡署的軍職人員欠位"},{"start":6062.97,"end":6083.089,"text":"隨時調整導致海巡警察人員心聲不滿但是海巡所卻發聲新聞登載騰青表示這是任職作戰還說政府歷年持續調整軍公教人員的待遇他們的薪水其實不低那我們在國內的這個"},{"start":6086.195,"end":6112.923,"text":"警察安全人員保護人民是第一個戰線目前我們中共繞台次數已經加倍甚至淩進到我們12海里過去裡面的經濟海域24海里現在已經進入到幾乎到12海里那我們的海巡署是第一站在第一線有沒有必要要為他們發聲"},{"start":6114.944,"end":6135.04,"text":"調整他們的薪資 有沒有這邊特別跟委員澄清那因為這次的四一要調薪是國軍體系的調薪那我們署裡面的軍職同仁同樣也是列在這個裡面所以沒有所謂的我們軍職同仁沒有調薪這個問題特別跟委員報告"},{"start":6135.74,"end":6158.495,"text":"那另外我們署名現在有四種身份的人軍警還有文職人員跟官務人員他們適用各自不同的人事法規跟命令待遇跟福利當然有所不同那我們海巡署對於同仁的福利待遇一向都是積極爭取的那這個部分我們會配合行政院政策來全力幫同仁爭取以上報告"},{"start":6158.715,"end":6186.176,"text":"好 橫向聯繫很重要也要跟我們的上層來做一個說明今天海巡署都是站在第一線目前中共的腦台裡面已經對我們台灣的國家的安全非常的威脅所以海巡署我必須跟海巡署人員要說一個道理化應該要有所調整 好不好好 謝謝委員的鼓勵"},{"start":6203.297,"end":6231.426,"text":"接下來由陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請我們蔡局長好 局長 早蔡委員早"},{"start":6232.452,"end":6255.86,"text":"局長我想針對我們這幾天大家關心的共諜滲透的問題來就教我們局長因為最近包括負責總統府的維安的憲兵也有我們立法院國會助理等等因為洩漏內部的資料給中共而被逮捕或是判刑"},{"start":6257.54,"end":6264.842,"text":"美國的媒體都報導說我們總統身旁出現共諜但是這個共諜滲透並非新的問題國安團隊我們也有提出因應的相關作為但是這個滲透的層級為什麼會越來越高它所造成的漏洞"},{"start":6279.383,"end":6302.037,"text":"的這個核心問題到底在哪裡另外就是我們國安局對於這種潛伏其中的這種共諜我們有沒有什麼樣的一個防範的一個措施好 跟柯委員最後說明就中共在對台進行這些在地協力者或共諜的部件它常常會滿全面式的來篩選特定的一個目標"},{"start":6302.717,"end":6331.728,"text":"那我們在夜報的內容也跟各位委員先進有說明到那像是軍中他可能會鎖定一些重要的單位希望能夠來刺密取得相關的機敏的情訊有助於中共未來在對台進行軍事活動的時候有相關的軍事資訊來支撐那第二部分也會去接觸到一些重要的黨政人士或是我們剛剛也有委員在關切的立法院的內部因為這些單位比較容易去接觸到政府"},{"start":6332.068,"end":6349.662,"text":"合密的一些資料那假如我們在內部對於人員的安全查核的機制不夠健全的話自然就會產生委員所擔心的漏洞的問題那這是我了解到有些貴院的委員也在想要提出相關的一些法規能夠讓立法院這邊在"},{"start":6351.283,"end":6380.861,"text":"立委助理的部分能夠有一個安全查核的一個過程那很願意來提供我們國安單位的做法那像我們局裡面有180幾個職務都有類似列為核密查核的對象那在核密的過程當中又有分甲級以及丙級可以接觸到絕對機密及機密跟機密那所以假如能夠建立起這樣的一個核密機密的一個分類分級的管制的標準的話那可能在這部分的漏洞會比較減少一點以上意見提供給"},{"start":6382.003,"end":6386.774,"text":"謝謝局長我建議就是我們在行政部門或是包括立法院的國會助理"},{"start":6388.359,"end":6414.282,"text":"我們在審核的部分是不是可以來研擬一套新的方式來提供給我們行政部門跟立法院的相關國會助理的審查避免剛剛講的這種情勢再發生我想這也是非常重要因為這些人都是涉及到非常多機敏的相關資料那也會是中共要滲透的一個"},{"start":6414.842,"end":6437.131,"text":"重點的一個對象所以我想說這是不是請局長跟我們同仁是不是在這個會後可以去研擬看看提高我們這個審查的這個方式來協助我們相關需要的這個部門能夠有一個比較嚴謹比較神秘的一個審查我們很願意分享我們的一些經驗給各單位來做參考"},{"start":6437.791,"end":6465.91,"text":"那另外我們國安局有這個提到我們供碟滲透的手法分析報告那去年這個供碟案起訴了這個人數達到64人那在以2021年來看是4倍之多那進一步我們分析供碟的類型歸納出這個五大滲透管道及四大手法那今年所偵辦的案件起訴案件有15件主要的滲透手法跟對象"},{"start":6466.93,"end":6480.259,"text":"有無轉變那另外政府是不是能夠有效的來反制另外我們國安局是否可以再提高揭露的頻率以提升我們國人保防安全的相關意識"},{"start":6481.176,"end":6500.862,"text":"對,最後這一點揭露的部分,政務委員也注意到我們現在開始有這種所謂的專題的報告,來針對這些涉及到國安的議題,那透過一個比較完整的分析,以及這些案件樣態的一個進入比較深層的討論,來讓我們社會大眾更有這樣的一個保防為安的知覺。"},{"start":6501.542,"end":6529.429,"text":"那能夠強化我們的相關的社會的韌性那另外一部分法制的強化也是非常的重要我在會議之前也跟媒體朋友做說明跟報告也就是說怎麼樣來看我們目前的法制有沒有哪些的漏洞可以強化的因為中共在這個部分他們會去針對我們法制的不足的地方來進行一些所謂的人員的部署舉個例子像國安法我們國安法第二條只提到了發展組織罪有相關的刑責"},{"start":6530.289,"end":6545.804,"text":"並沒有參與組織罪的行者發展的人有事 參與的人沒事那這就代表我們在法制上還有一些更精進的空間那這部分也跟法務部的正部長有在討論這一塊怎麼樣來做一些必要的修法那假如法案有送到貴院來也希望委員可以大力的來支持"},{"start":6546.172,"end":6573.084,"text":"好,這部分再請我們管局這邊盡速來這個送繩那另外就是我們中共這個軍演跟內部的整肅的相關問題我想還是就叫我們局長那在上週這個中共有進行這個海峽雷霆2025A的這個軍演那是在我們賴總統3月中宣布國安17條之後中共"},{"start":6575.084,"end":6591.714,"text":"實施的聯合戰備警巡之後再次發動重大的軍演我想請教局長他這個真正的目的是什麼以及他想釋放的訊息為何另外就是"},{"start":6592.234,"end":6618.739,"text":"中共藉由這次的軍演是不是在測試川普新政府及我們其他這個盟友的一個底線是不是如此對 事實上這一次的演習的時間點確實是比較特殊因為總統是在3月13號召開國安高層會議做了一些加強我們防制中共滲透的一些措施的宣布但是演習的時間是拖到了4月1號跟2號那一般來講假如是針對性的演習的話時間不會拖這麼長"},{"start":6621.48,"end":6638.471,"text":"所以我們在判斷上當然透過這個演習可以對台進行一些施壓這是演習的目的之一另外在那個時間點剛好是美國他們的國防部有一些情資被媒體報導認為說美國有一些相關的國防建制的計畫重點是在置中保台"},{"start":6638.931,"end":6661.647,"text":"那這種的一個國防政策計畫可能也讓中共有點希望能夠透過軍演來表達他們的一個基本的底線跟立場那特別那個時間點也是美國的國防部長到關島到了日本到了菲律賓訪問之後的隔一天來舉行演習所以這次演習應該還是有對美國印太戰略進行反制佈局的一個效果第三個面向是中共內部的問題"},{"start":6662.828,"end":6683.933,"text":"因為目前中共正在進行一些軍中將領的整肅那委員不知道有沒有注意到那被整肅的很多都是東部戰區或是有31集團軍背景的這些將領那在整肅的過程當中透過這種軍事的演訓的話也可以來讓解放軍的部隊更專注在戰訓而不要去因為的"},{"start":6684.813,"end":6702.612,"text":"這些政治的整肅而去動搖到他的軍心那另一方面在整肅過程當中透過軍演他也可以讓外界來展示說即使內部有這麼多的問題他還是有一定的戰力可以來對外來呈現所以我們大概是從這三個層次來跟委員報告可能這一次中共軍演背後的戰略的盤算跟動機"},{"start":6703.373,"end":6726.798,"text":"好,那我接著問那個請教我們局長,就剛剛講的中共進來就在整肅嘛,那對於他整肅的對象包括這個中央軍委的副主席這個何惠東還有東部戰區的司令林向陽,那他這個部分是不是因為他們有涉入這個洩漏對台的相關作戰計畫而遭到這個整肅?"},{"start":6727.678,"end":6746.233,"text":"對 目前確實有各種的說法這是其中的一種說法那有的也是涉及到可能有貪腐的問題那也有人認為說可能是對習近平的忠誠度遭到質疑那這部分的資訊非常的分雜那因為事件也還在整肅的進行過程當中我們會持續來注意到底什麼才是真正的原因好"},{"start":6746.733,"end":6772.397,"text":"另外我想請教局長就是我們從去年的這個聯合力艦還有今年的這個海峽雷霆它所釋出的相關這個宣傳的短影片內容裡面有秀出一張台灣地圖它鎖定台北市台中高雄還有花蓮縣為四個紅心的這個目標那另外當然還有其他五個未標注地點包括宜蘭縣的這個地點在演習的代號的轉變上"},{"start":6776.459,"end":6796.381,"text":"他所釋出的這個短片中鎖定特定的縣市有無特殊的這個政治或是軍事的意涵我們覺得他有他政治的意涵在那中共他現在在進行對台的一些演訓的動作常常會有一些徵訊的操作而現在徵訊的操作比較常看到的是有影片跟圖卡"},{"start":6797.182,"end":6810.735,"text":"那利用這種影片跟圖卡的一個操作來凸顯到好像台灣已經兵兇戰危讓我們的民眾感受到這種危機感那我想這一些演習過程當中的證訊操作也是本局在"},{"start":6812.636,"end":6837.003,"text":"觀察演習過程當中中共動作裡面非常重要的一環所以在今天的夜報當中我們也是除了說明中共對台的武力脅迫以外又針對偵訊的部分去說明到我們怎麼樣透過我們的自動查找的系統來掌握它散佈的一個網絡那以及怎麼樣運用AI的技術來製造這些圖卡或是影音來影響國人的相關的認知這是我們的關注重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":6837.363,"end":6858.233,"text":"好 那就下個月下個月就是我們這個總統就職週年了那共軍是不是有可能進行更大規模的這個行動我們這個國安局有沒有掌握相關的我們會注意因為現在中共的相關的演習也跟委員報告說明他這些演習有很多也是把他例行性的演習給拼湊在一起是"},{"start":6858.673,"end":6876.389,"text":"對 以剛剛委員提到4月1號、2號的海峽雷霆2025A我們就注意到了它有結合到北部戰區的遠海長航跟山東艦的遠海長航那以及相關例行性的聯合戰備警巡把它拼湊在一起變成是一個所謂的對台的正對性的演習"},{"start":6876.969,"end":6904.728,"text":"那再配合到徵訊的操作來造成國人的一種恐慌那這種的演習它要啟動會非常的快那我們也會配合到我們國安單位跟國防部來發揮我們國軍聯合情監偵的系統來盡可能的預先來掌握相關的動態不過跟委員說明的是一般的船艦它要有相關活動的話一定都會要有一個時間來動員船隻那一般它開始動員我們大概都可以有相當程度的掌握"},{"start":6905.708,"end":6933.022,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教局長,中共在上個月有舉辦兩會,全國人民代表大會及中國人民政治協商的會議,是不是會借機加大力道來操作新一波對台的這種錯假的認知攻勢,來藉此深化台灣內部的矛盾問題?"},{"start":6933.926,"end":6961.014,"text":"對他的兩會委員提到的很重要也是有趣的問題我們有發現到他的基調幾乎都沒有變近年兩會都延續到過去的基調也就是反讀促統促容那也跟委員說明我們曾經用AI的系統在兩會召開之前用AI的系統去預測今年兩會的政府工作報告對台的部分它的用語會是什麼跟委員說明的是我們事前兩會之前AI系統預測的內容跟後來出來的結果"},{"start":6963.675,"end":6989.704,"text":"都一樣85%那就代表說他一直在延續他既有的政策立場不是說AI技術很先進可以預測的準確而是中共的立場幾乎都一致強調所謂的反毒觸統出籠好 謝謝局長那期待我們國安局一起來守護國安局好 謝謝陳委員的指導 謝謝謝謝陳俊宇委員上台質詢那接下來由我們陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7015.916,"end":7032.421,"text":"你好 我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早 局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多"},{"start":7034.329,"end":7060.146,"text":"局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況"},{"start":7061.502,"end":7080.399,"text":"那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就職兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼"},{"start":7081.563,"end":7108.931,"text":"對 這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它承讓率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官們也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關 調查機關"},{"start":7110.812,"end":7129.735,"text":"檢察機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察性的狀況這就總統為安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎"},{"start":7131.191,"end":7149.286,"text":"這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人"},{"start":7149.986,"end":7175.493,"text":"那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責"},{"start":7176.533,"end":7190.823,"text":"應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保祐總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責"},{"start":7191.684,"end":7215.939,"text":"各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責"},{"start":7216.719,"end":7234.451,"text":"那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊"},{"start":7235.392,"end":7250.533,"text":"當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣"},{"start":7251.714,"end":7265.48,"text":"欸 幾件啦 福建黨欸 全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛"},{"start":7267.034,"end":7293.07,"text":"如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核"},{"start":7297.506,"end":7320.126,"text":"委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理"},{"start":7321.126,"end":7338.519,"text":"我們知道沒有包含到國會處理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況"},{"start":7341.701,"end":7356.487,"text":"甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在一般的美國的一些基本上是 我了解在執行上面如果說在法律上沒有禁止的話執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面"},{"start":7357.843,"end":7377.843,"text":"應該要完備因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的他可能會涉密那這種狀況的之下行政上面是不是可以做到"},{"start":7378.624,"end":7407.75,"text":"在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的一個機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善"},{"start":7408.71,"end":7428.525,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難"},{"start":7429.406,"end":7455.814,"text":"OK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們回去研究好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我"},{"start":7458.175,"end":7484.477,"text":"不好意思我請國安局局長好 謝謝局長我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是"},{"start":7485.177,"end":7500.83,"text":"好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況"},{"start":7502.171,"end":7528.286,"text":"還有這一個前辦公室他是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況他是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含他的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼"},{"start":7528.766,"end":7557.158,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們假如是要跟委員說明沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是"},{"start":7558.539,"end":7577.597,"text":"偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去阻止他什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向"},{"start":7579.218,"end":7596.793,"text":"我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的"},{"start":7597.733,"end":7626.066,"text":"會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然"},{"start":7627.643,"end":7654.48,"text":"數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的層峰是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔"},{"start":7655.922,"end":7674.905,"text":"這些都是你們的數據 這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好 因為這個從內部挖解是最容易的好 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來是馬文京委員上台諮詢謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":7694.672,"end":7712.859,"text":"謝謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多"},{"start":7714.201,"end":7734.15,"text":"是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極"},{"start":7736.031,"end":7750.981,"text":"所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有"},{"start":7751.761,"end":7776.682,"text":"而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人"},{"start":7782.078,"end":7808.086,"text":"判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%所以起訴率 定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%"},{"start":7812.524,"end":7837.793,"text":"85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久最重判到20年有兩位最輕的咧"},{"start":7839.136,"end":7854.791,"text":"最輕的可能一年的都有,過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們,就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定院,就是已經結束了,你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們,因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面,尤其是現在,其實他是非常重要的"},{"start":7863.519,"end":7866.822,"text":"可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響"},{"start":7885.057,"end":7907.067,"text":"其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且他所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透"},{"start":7909.048,"end":7915.41,"text":"我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室的助理盛楚音這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但"},{"start":7930.254,"end":7939.236,"text":"在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理所以包括羅美玲委員 郭玉琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等"},{"start":7958.16,"end":7962.144,"text":"剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院 立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人 就是共匪 就是共諜"},{"start":7983.823,"end":7988.145,"text":"我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持的把關另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛"},{"start":8004.133,"end":8020.064,"text":"雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪"},{"start":8020.845,"end":8022.286,"text":"賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個"},{"start":8037.941,"end":8044.046,"text":"鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說"},{"start":8053.424,"end":8065.693,"text":"我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看"},{"start":8068.35,"end":8091.484,"text":"那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來"},{"start":8096.747,"end":8104.789,"text":"不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的年齡證包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題"},{"start":8123.175,"end":8126.939,"text":"可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊"},{"start":8138.55,"end":8141.612,"text":"他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做"},{"start":8154.358,"end":8179.58,"text":"對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密等級的劃分"},{"start":8180.26,"end":8199.697,"text":"所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼"},{"start":8201.258,"end":8215.345,"text":"全部統統要納入可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個"},{"start":8230.712,"end":8258.003,"text":"在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發現這是個案我不能在這邊討論個案不是你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都會是這一些案情這位是是"},{"start":8259.804,"end":8283.561,"text":"那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響"},{"start":8285.083,"end":8310.23,"text":"沒有 現在主要是我們有什麼影響沒有 現在主要是它涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啦我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定我懂文法 謝謝因為它是被檢舉的跟跟就是發現的這是案情的一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情要拆違建啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有"},{"start":8313.971,"end":8319.393,"text":"這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的"},{"start":8334.437,"end":8352.554,"text":"他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒"},{"start":8357.839,"end":8373.14,"text":"局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為那如果是公開的資訊我相信局長沒有 更為說明一下"},{"start":8375.39,"end":8380.114,"text":"你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去"},{"start":8401.411,"end":8407.035,"text":"指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理"},{"start":8419.324,"end":8422.185,"text":"他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對"},{"start":8439.133,"end":8467.892,"text":"而且是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們"},{"start":8469.413,"end":8492.472,"text":"現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高 更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分人設 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員上台諮詢 接下來有王地宇委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8508.57,"end":8509.781,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長"},{"start":8520.654,"end":8538.024,"text":"因為我們國安局統整我們全國的情報單位那其實你們算是一個資料彙整機關提供給國家決策的參考我要問你一個新的狀況最新的消息是白宮的發言人李維特"},{"start":8539.105,"end":8567.061,"text":"他代表川普表達因為現在的時間我們現在是台灣時間的4月9號的上午那10點54分那就是美東時間華府時間他們的4月9號的晚上10點54分再過一個小時過6分鐘他們所有宣布的稅都要開始執行他們是定在4月9號華府時間凌晨0點起開始執行那你以前是外交體系我相信你了解他們的一個作業過程"},{"start":8568.444,"end":8569.729,"text":"那李威特講什麼 李威特說"},{"start":8571.075,"end":8593.766,"text":"川普總統吃軟不吃硬我簡單翻譯他的話啦意思說如果你報復你回擊那美國總統會更用力的回擊所以宣布對中國加增再加50%有人算出來說是104%其實如果加上拜登任內跟川普第一任的時候其實應該是126.1%不只104%縱使104%這也是大的事情可是後面這一段我不知道國安局有沒有掌握"},{"start":8599.318,"end":8614.613,"text":"川普表達說來中國打電話過來習近平要做什麼你先打電話過來我會對你非常的gratias我會非常的寬容來處理這個事情你們的判斷習近平會不會打這個電話公開喔他公開說你要談我會對你很寬容要不然就是100多%了"},{"start":8626.431,"end":8643.736,"text":"因為這一次全球的關稅問題不只是台美還牽涉到台灣跟周邊台灣的生產製造中心也許設在東南亞都有影響所以就你們這幾天國安會國安高層以及相關情報的收集你們認為中國會不會打這個電話"},{"start":8645.794,"end":8654.804,"text":"我想我一個國安局長我沒有辦法去解釋啦或是去建議中國領導人該怎麼做你不能建議啦我要做的是你的言析你們的研判"},{"start":8656.752,"end":8683.207,"text":"現階段來講看起來還是雙方是比較都在堅持立場的一個階段因為我比較擔心的是因為美中台三個關係其實互相是有連動的卻又互相獨立我們不容許台灣跟美國的關係被放在美國跟中國的談判桌上這是我們一貫的原則也就是美國跟台灣的外交關係的第一條鐵律就是美國不能把台灣拿去跟中國談嘛美國也承諾這一點"},{"start":8684.588,"end":8707.857,"text":"所以如果川普要求中國打這個電話那經濟的工具 關稅的工具大概用完了後面可能就是出政治的工具那政治的工具中國的台灣牌 美國的台灣牌我們台灣自己有台灣牌啦你們有沒有研判川普政府在這件事情台灣議題會不會扮演什麼角色"},{"start":8709.582,"end":8731.49,"text":"現在大概川普政府在處理上目前看起來他在經貿議題上跟安全議題上是分開來處理那也就是說他在處理關稅問題的過程當中他的防長才剛剛在亞洲地區做了非常重要的訪問重新去提出對於亞洲盟友安全以及區域現狀維護一個非常堅強的一個承諾對 他訪問前還透露給媒體他們的這個暫時性的美國國家防衛的這個"},{"start":8739.153,"end":8754.05,"text":"戰略導引嘛有置中護台的概念在裡面那這個導引裡面把台灣放在相當重要的位置所以他大概有一個所以我們現在講就是說當他在處理這個關稅的時候美國跟中國不管是雙方的領導者直接溝通或者透過一些談判"},{"start":8755.191,"end":8783.79,"text":"台灣在這裡面不應該成為議題那我們不僅要了解要研析也應該要去影響那當然你從他公佈關稅的時候他那個板子上面台灣被視為一個獨立的國家這是一個在外交上是一個正向的分裂美國的CIA把那個旗幟啦國家地理他也做一個明確的標示台灣跟中國是互不隸屬互不管轄這是一個方向所以我們現在看到就是美中如果來硬的"},{"start":8785.311,"end":8808.639,"text":"那中國的關稅一直往上堆疊而美國對中國在其他生產製造國都用高關稅來避免席產地所以我們現在派到美國的談判團隊除了要雙方希望建立零關稅其實零關稅不壞啦變FTA 雙方都零關稅其實還有一塊就是避免中國席產地如果這一個美國的策略為真的話"},{"start":8809.739,"end":8838.553,"text":"那你們國安局本身在你們資料的研析上這個發展是不是一個方向那這個方向台灣在這裡面的角色是什麼是這部分我想在總統召開相關的會議以及對外的談話已經提到了這一點那怎麼樣在進行台美之間後續有可能的關稅的協商過程當中怎麼來處理洗產地或是出口管制的問題這確實是在相關評估過程當中一個重要的議題"},{"start":8839.093,"end":8856.778,"text":"因為賴總統的五項談判策略其實看起來是經過深思熟慮這個有對到命題啦就是不管是你要降低彼此的貿易的deficit我們的貿易的差額貿易的赤字然後降低貿易的壁壘不管叫關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘我們也盤點了"},{"start":8859.939,"end":8880.51,"text":"第三個就是避免中國經由台灣洗產地或偷寄宿嘛這是一個另外呢川普也希望增加投資讓美國有機會最後一個他還是需要這些關稅美國聯邦政府要調整財務結構他大概是五大目的那我們現在鄭麗君副院長帶的談判團隊在美國那媒體有報導說吳釗燮也在美國但吳釗燮談的應該是另外一件事情"},{"start":8886.263,"end":8911.848,"text":"目前4月9號台灣時間4月10號你認為台灣面對美國調高這個關稅這一波的衝擊我們有沒有辦法避免或者在短期間內有辦法和緩你們的判斷是什麼對對這部分因為我剛跟媒體有說明政府事實上已經有做一連串非常充分的一個措施來做必要的因應那一部分是在盤點可能產業受到的影響跟衝擊"},{"start":8912.708,"end":8932.951,"text":"所以總統跟服務院的團隊也跟產業界不管高科技或傳統產業也有很多的討論那也提出了我們在短期跟中長期產業未來要發展佈局的一個重要的方向那第二部分也針對未來的台美關稅的協商那也做了很多的一個沙盤的推演你們準備做的我們都知道"},{"start":8934.032,"end":8953.058,"text":"因為總統也接觸了五項策略另外對美的軍事採購軍事採購當然不會列入貿易的額度裡面但是那個對我們對自己的安全重視這件事情對談判是有好的一個前置條件我剛才問的是結果就是以目前你們掌握的狀況"},{"start":8954.198,"end":8976.552,"text":"美國這一次全球關稅現在有50多個國家要跟他們談昨天白宮還特別罕見講說台灣已經跟他們接觸了表示我們已經on the table已經在進程裡面了你們的判斷台灣在這一波的關稅裡面有沒有機會被不要說豁免被減緩或者說短時間內可以列到比較有利的地位上面"},{"start":8977.116,"end":9003.516,"text":"也不能排除這樣的一個機會啦因為就像委員提到的我們在週末期間已經跟美方有做一些溝通那也針對我方的一個立場跟提案讓美方知道那這也是為什麼美國白宮的資深官員有對外證實這件事情所以雙方的一個戰略溝通的機制是有啟動的那接下來就看他在審核過程當中那哪些國家可以列入協商的名單那協商名單裡面有沒有比較優先的名單那這部分據我的理解還在處理過程當中"},{"start":9006.158,"end":9033.549,"text":"會不會在優先的談判名單目前他們還在討論你認為樂不樂觀因為在優先的談判名單就有可能先暫緩對我們當然是爭取能夠有這樣的一個機會因為你是等於全國情報的最高首長但有些東西還在進行當中不辯講我尊重對不適合我現在我剛要問的就是說以川普的決策模式你覺得因為剩下幾個小時會不會有些國家被暫時緩和下來"},{"start":9036.125,"end":9037.099,"text":"你們的判斷有沒有可能"},{"start":9038.942,"end":9066.808,"text":"這馬上就先排囉我知道 他們目前看起來好像還沒有到那個階段他們現在重點是在篩略可以來啟動關稅協商的國家名單因為他宣布的時間這是全球嘛 臨時差的嘛所以美東時間的半夜凌晨零點零時4月9號可是他到天亮 華爾街那個鐘開始敲其實還有幾個小時啊"},{"start":9068.598,"end":9072.331,"text":"那這幾個小時以目前我還是那句話你方便說"},{"start":9073.612,"end":9098.904,"text":"因為這牽涉到我們台灣太多的中小企業這件事情影響中小企業非常的重大有一些不負責任的政治人物隨便說那跟美國開幹啊他32我們就50%我跟你講這個中小企業聽到講這種話都認為這是非常不負責任我們現在美國是我們對外出口的第一大市場在去年就開始超越中國了所以我現在要講的是以你目前的瞭解"},{"start":9100.595,"end":9128.197,"text":"川普政府有沒有可能百分比我們用李克特五點亮表有沒有可能在真正執行這個關稅前把某些國家拉出來暫緩上次加拿大跟墨西哥就快要槍斃前就從行場拖回去說緩和一個月再來有沒有可能他們現在有在討論各種的狀況啦然後也針對已經表達協商的國家有在做一些討論正在討論你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":9129.293,"end":9135.042,"text":"極其不可能有點可能不知道或者有可能或非常可能五個點"},{"start":9136.94,"end":9164.207,"text":"正在討論 他們還在討論當中所以目前這件事情正在發展中就是表達要談判意願的五十多個國家這五十多個國家裡面大概有六七個國家表達願意雙方零關稅盧比歐向歐盟表達川普的目的是建構北美洲跟歐盟的零關稅經貿環境他要講這個話所以這件事情正在減變中所以我剛才從這邊聽到的是"},{"start":9166.127,"end":9189.484,"text":"有沒有可能某些國家在正式執行前 暫時拉下來進行協商談判這個正在談 溝通中對 他們正在討論他們現在正在討論 現在正在談當中嘛是台灣是正在談當中一國嘛當然 我們就有表達意願我剛才跟委員說明我們跟台美之間這個機制是有啟動的那美方資深官員也對外證實這個機制是啟動的OK兩個問題 主席我給你借一點時間那個"},{"start":9194.958,"end":9220.75,"text":"吳釗燮現在在美國的所謂的特殊管道的安全談判跟這個關稅有沒有關係我不適合替國安會來回答這個問題OK好我尊重因為帕帕羅印太司令部的指揮官司令他特別提到最近的中共對台軍演他認為那不是一個演習他認為是一個rehearsal是一個進攻前的預演動作"},{"start":9222.092,"end":9251.407,"text":"是一個對台進攻前的預演動作國安會怎麼看這句話我沒有辦法替國安會來回答我說國安局的部分國安局的部分他確實我剛才跟其他委員做說明他現在開始把一些例行性的演習做包裝而對台灣具有針對性他在演練的就是希望建立這種可能的遊演轉戰的相關的能量帕帕羅上將所說的最近這些軍演他是一個發動對台攻擊的rehearsal"},{"start":9252.032,"end":9280.111,"text":"各種意見我們都尊重也會列入我們的評估好 這個我不為難你最後一個問題中共最近是不是在清洗他們的軍方有一個消息出來一千三百多位包含將領我這邊有列一些名單中央軍委會副主席國防部長戰區司令員武警部隊司令員軍政高層其他軍政包含東部台灣當面的東部戰區的海軍司令"},{"start":9281.011,"end":9306.109,"text":"這裡面有上將中將被清洗的中上將少將大概可以組一個連然後所有的軍方中共解放軍被清洗的人將近一千三百多人這個消息是否為真你們有沒有掌握有我們的數據剛剛在夜報裡面也有大概在裡面有羅列出來所以這數字是真的就有一些中共的將領被清洗但董軍的部分我沒記錯好像"},{"start":9307.816,"end":9328.839,"text":"昨天還是什麼時候有公開的畫面出來就要再確認一下他消失一段時間後就出來我這個提醒就是說當然有人說一個部隊在大清洗當中這個部隊是沒有辦法有戰力的但我們不能掉以輕心但另外一說就是當大清洗發生的時候困獸遊鬥這個時候大家要特別小心從印度、越南"},{"start":9329.58,"end":9350.066,"text":"菲律賓甚至於澳洲、日本、台灣這些周邊國家都應該特別小心因為當內部在大清洗的時候製造衝突常常是解放軍解決問題的方法之一你們有評估這個事情?有,這部分國安單位、國防部我們都有全面全程的一個掌控共軍相關的狀態所以目前局勢是有沒有升高的太陽還是正常持平?"},{"start":9351.466,"end":9377.792,"text":"目前還好所以這個清洗是確實正在發生有他是中共內部黨派的鬥爭還是藉由剛剛也跟陳委員在討論他有幾個可能的原因一來是派系的問題貪腐的問題忠誠度的問題那因為有些狀況還在他們的調查當中那可能要進一步再來做一些綜合的判斷你認為習近平的位置目前他是憂慮的還是安穩的"},{"start":9379.625,"end":9395.687,"text":"我沒有辦法去揣摩習近平的心境啦但至少在軍文關係的這個後續的發展是我們關注的一個重點好 OK 謝謝局長好 謝謝委員謝謝王定宇委員上台諮詢接下來有林淑英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9408.704,"end":9421.642,"text":"謝謝主席主席因為時間比較有限所以我一次請國安局蔡局長法務部調查局陳局長軍情局鄧執行長還有法務部調查局資安處的張處長首先我先詢問"},{"start":9424.264,"end":9453.236,"text":"許問蔡局長局長剛剛其實聽到您有關於整體的國安調查的時候你有講到就是中國對於台灣的滲透喔國安局或者是相關的單位這裡沒有不敢辦只有就是看資料到哪裡我們辦到哪裡而且沒有分顏色本期聽了其實覺得非常開心因為一直以來我在國防外交委員會有非常關注的就是中國的滲透從過去我在質詢國防部的時候提到了那就是不論現役或退役金人他們因為資金的關係"},{"start":9454.156,"end":9475.971,"text":"所以有相關的這種地下會對又或者是金融陷阱導致他們不得已成為所謂的共諜或者是洩密者那這個部分今天在報告當中也特別提出來了159件當中有95人其實現役或退役金人佔了60%而且呢現在媒體也都報導出去了就是在報告當中也提到了"},{"start":9477.182,"end":9504.075,"text":"會有黑道跟暴力所謂組織犯罪地下錢莊等等來做掩護所以顯然這個問題它就如同我們賴總統所宣示的一樣就是其實中國這個敵對勢力正在方方面面的入侵那麼本席想詢問的就是除了您現在所提出來的這些樣態之外有沒有注意到另外一個問題那就是有關於來 夏業"},{"start":9505.075,"end":9526.575,"text":"學術交流是不是也成為台灣滲透的一個樣態本席曾經發布過一個臉書啦就是在國民黨發起罷免吳思瑤的這一位人士叫做張克進他其實過去我不知道他為何自稱文化人但他比較多的文化都是在對岸"},{"start":9527.517,"end":9529.3,"text":"包括中國相關的這些教育部門然後文宣部門統戰部門去頒發這個所謂這個認證給他那麼"},{"start":9538.285,"end":9564.405,"text":"他基本上他就是充滿了紅色履歷那麼他要來罷免一個被中國所認證是台獨幫手台獨推手的吳思堯我那時候就覺得說這真的很可笑所以我開始就去了解到學術單位來聘請人的時候對岸的學術單位來聘請人的時候是不是其實也充滿了紅色危機這個是本席所接收到的一個"},{"start":9565.726,"end":9573.474,"text":"算是爆料這一位稱作卓銀鏘他任職於閩南師範大學"},{"start":9575.458,"end":9599.534,"text":"那當時我就在想說這個人有什麼好來做爆料的呢為什麼他的任職有人要把這樣的一個提醒我來注意後來我去查了發現如果你要在閩南師範大學來做教授的話要被聘任的話你必須要有中國共產黨的黨籍也就是中國人民共和國的國籍那麼而且要對中國共產黨要有擁護"},{"start":9601.835,"end":9629.771,"text":"那我就想問不知道局長有沒有收到類似相關的情資這個人有在注意當中嗎因為我想要問的是他有中國籍嗎還是他是雙重國籍現在是沒有放棄台灣籍而我去了解這個人的時候我發現如果我上網Google過去他曾經在2023年有所謂拿政府標案最後不當裁員掏空的狀況那我本來想說如果他只是一個經濟犯"},{"start":9631.172,"end":9635.357,"text":"那又有什麼好注意的呢結果一查不得了從國防部的參謀本部再到國科會再到國安局再到法務部調查局他在2006年也就是馬英九執政的時期"},{"start":9646.698,"end":9662.749,"text":"他接了許多相關的標案而且當任主持人計劃人而他在2016年也就是政黨輪替之後他2017年2016年左右的時間他離開了公職相關單位所以我想詢問這樣的人他在2025年3月6號"},{"start":9670.031,"end":9697.277,"text":"然後現在到中國的閩南師範大學去這樣的人會不會是另外一個國安破口而這個國安破口是不是從學術的角度開始成為滲透另外要注意的部分先請局長回應對 這部分我們有在注意那也謝謝委員的提醒那有沒有可能透過一種學術的交流變成是一個國安在管理上要注意的一個漏洞這我們有在注意"},{"start":9698.097,"end":9708.131,"text":"好 所以說你們其實已經有在注意跟啟動相關的調查了嗎好 那麼我想要請就教一下保務部陳局長委員好局長 因為他曾經有參加過"},{"start":9716.352,"end":9737.023,"text":"法務資安整體防禦基礎建設先導案而且他還是技術顧問所以他掌握了多少資安方面的顧問為什麼我會從調查局先來問起是因為2015到2016是一個目前最近近台灣目前最近近現在2025的一個時間點"},{"start":9739.364,"end":9766.421,"text":"那麼他所了解我們的基礎建設當中到底滲入多少了解多少而他又可以帶走多少我們在資安上面的機密保護部有了解嗎報告委員您提到的這個採購案在來之前我是沒有了解到但是我回去以後我會馬上了解然後跟委員來報告好那國防部我想問一下軍情局"},{"start":9770.134,"end":9778.988,"text":"因為我們知道我們前一陣子中國有刻意的去洩露說我們所謂自動電軍相關的這些人士當時國防部的回應會是說"},{"start":9782.007,"end":9803.396,"text":"這個可能是錯誤的資料假訊息或不重要但是我就想要問了相關的這個人他是不是真的掌握有具有戰略的價值的相關的核心技術跟資密那麼他是一個退役的軍情局的人員的時候那麼相關的這裡我們軍情局現在覺得是不是應該要有什麼防範首先跟委員報告第一個就是我們退役人員因為"},{"start":9811.8,"end":9839.826,"text":"他們掌握的訊息跟我們現在執行的工作是並不會有很大的影響因為第一個就是我們所有退役人員他本身具有管制期那他管制期管制過了之後大概一到三年的時間對於我們現行工作他基本上是不會有所了解的這是第一個"},{"start":9840.782,"end":9865.882,"text":"第二個那對於我們本局的退役人員我們會有很嚴格的管制我們必須要要求他主動申報好所以你很有信心你覺得因為他已經在2017年退役現在是2025年的4月了所以他沒有辦法掌握到核心技術他沒有向下的學弟沒有向上的學長可以有訊息做中間的傳遞"},{"start":9867.323,"end":9893.759,"text":"這邊跟委員補充報告其實我們局裡面有一項我們對於我們內部的審核機制我們始終在執行那我們所有人員的交流跟我們人員的出訪或者我們對外接觸的重要人員我們會定期不定期的都有做相關的檢查跟疑測的機制最後請問一下法務部調查局的資安處的張處長"},{"start":9895.858,"end":9918.705,"text":"處長因為會找您是因為我覺得這是最直接的關聯本席擔憂的就是如果今天資安就是國安不是只是一句所謂的口頭禪或者是口號的話那麼這樣的一個人他可能只是一個單獨的個案所以我不會要求在這裡把這個個案所有追查的進度或是狀況來做"},{"start":9920.846,"end":9940.132,"text":"說明但是如果就您所了解的話那麼這個有沒有可能成為一個資安的破口而從這個點是不是要全面的來做清查跟了解他以學術交流之名受聘到中國大陸去會不會把我們相關的資安的關鍵技術帶過去呢調查局怎麼看"},{"start":9941.676,"end":9970.525,"text":"是跟委員報告謝謝委員的提醒至於這個卓先生就我了解他並沒有在我們局裡面負責相關的資訊標案那是不是他有擔任我們標案的其他的公司的顧問這個我們還需要進一步清查但是有關卓銀腔的部分其實不是只有我們資安的部分那他涉及到其他國安的部分我們局裡面都整體的有組成專案在做一個調查"},{"start":9970.765,"end":9984.817,"text":"好 最後要把時間交給蔡局長局長 其實我相信我先補充一下剛剛那個圖表上有提到好像有個國安局的資安建制案由這一位來擔任主持人沒有這個事情好 沒有這個標案嗎沒有沒有好 OK好 那麼我其實最後要請這個國安局"},{"start":9990.622,"end":10011.69,"text":"能夠持續來了解的部分就是當國安局已經注意到就是所謂的內應會透過所謂的民防透過內應在中共用武力犯台的同時的時候這個內應可能是透過所謂武裝部隊或者是相關的這個民軍民防來的時候另外一個破口可能會是我們的基礎建設或是資訊安全"},{"start":10014.051,"end":10034.758,"text":"那麼這個絕對只是一個其中的個案我沒有要您來討論個案但是從學術的滲透的角度以學術交流知名的角度而把台灣相關的重要的技術帶到中國去這個部分局長是不是也能夠把它列為一個主要的另外一個查查的另外一條線"},{"start":10035.798,"end":10052.264,"text":"這部分我們是有一些專案在處理那也謝謝委員的提醒那因為畢竟中共對台灣不管竊密攬財他有管道非常的多元所以我們就是透過專案的機制讓我們國安情報團隊大家可以來分享情資那也針對這些個案來交換一些案況的理解那有必要的話就啟動檢調單位的偵辦"},{"start":10054.205,"end":10073.208,"text":"因為主席站起來了最後我想在修法面的部分因為像現在我們都只是針對就像剛剛幾位回答的官員都提到就是比如三年的保密啊四年的保密五年的保密等等加密程度但是對於海外任職我現在要提醒視訊時代他在海外任職他不一定需要出國"},{"start":10074.189,"end":10094.665,"text":"他來跟你視訊他一樣可以上課所以在相關其他的海外任職的規定的部分也許相關的單位不論是軍情及國安局或相關的單位可能也要針對修法的部分來與時俱進好嗎好謝謝謝謝林淳於委員上台質詢接下來有楊瓊英上台委員質詢"},{"start":10103.787,"end":10123.102,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請局長國安局局長好針對川普政府宣布對外貿易與投資政策包括各國的鋼、鋁、汽車關稅到25%甚至對各國的課徵10%到50%的對等關稅"},{"start":10132.189,"end":10151.193,"text":"也盼引導整個製造業能夠回流到美國關稅政策一出引發了國人的恐慌尤其是我們產業界非常非常的憂心在川普政策出爐前政府要人民安心強調風險可控政府有準備沒想到美國政府最後對我們課稅是高達32%的關稅"},{"start":10157.935,"end":10186.786,"text":"那政府是不是在事前已經有掌控到相關的資訊那我們國安團隊的判斷到底是什麼所以首先來請教國安會議的結論最後是不是誠如柯總召所說的是這個關稅是10%請教沒有這部分應該行政院已經有對外說明當時在評估可能美國對等關稅的稅增的那個會多大"},{"start":10188.13,"end":10206.577,"text":"範圍會多大那當時是有抓一個蠻大的幅度那最大的幅度應該是比現在的32%還要大剛剛在這個經濟委員會呢部長跟劉主委國防會都說當時的這個準備是10%到35%是不是如此"},{"start":10207.705,"end":10228.764,"text":"對 我尊重行政院相關部會的對外說明你對外說明就是同意所以我們不希望說民眾聽到的訊息是差別這麼大因為柯總召是鐵口直斷的說放心啦 就是只有10%可是隔天出來的答案是如此讓人民真的恐慌我們也不希望"},{"start":10229.464,"end":10246.184,"text":"讓人民這麼恐慌不可以所以政府必須要有所應對那所以在這個對等的關稅的議題之前台積電對美的投資那麼已經引起了不少的討論也有人憂心也就是說"},{"start":10247.225,"end":10271.76,"text":"不少人質疑說台積電變美積電那也有人憂心說赴美之後的投資會削弱了台灣晶片的一個優勢那麼台積電的半導體它的角色地位我們的描述是沉入台灣的細鈍但是我們也看到美方說了他說未來有4成的晶片在美生產換句話說更有人說這會陷入了我們"},{"start":10275.862,"end":10297.453,"text":"一個安全的困境那也就是說美國得到了這個台積電的一個投資確保了美國供應鏈的一個安全但是我們台灣的資產安全反而是讓我們會不穩定所以在這種情況之下請教局長台積電對美投資的增加對我國安有什麼影響請教"},{"start":10298.553,"end":10325.038,"text":"我想第一部分先說明一下因為台積電畢竟是一家民營的企業它的海外的佈局投資我想我們國安單位不適合做評論好或不好但是從國際情報的角度我可以跟委員分享報告的是就國際的所謂半導體的產業來講它是一個蠻大的全球的生態系所以我相信我們的廠商在做相關的投資佈局一定都會有它的一個評估跟考量"},{"start":10325.538,"end":10344.807,"text":"那相關的投資對於他的企業是不是在擴展市場上或是在供應的安全上或是更多的訂單的爭取上他一定會有一些評估那這部分我想注重但是在我們的盾牌如果削弱了這個盾牌當然人民會有所疑慮所以在我們整個國安的方面我們的影響"},{"start":10345.707,"end":10362.937,"text":"不過也跟委員說明一下因為我們國內的那個半導體的產業的供應鏈生態系非常的完整那有非常優秀的勞動力那也有非常先進的技術它要在短期被取代的可能性沒有那麼高所以換句話說我們還是有所"},{"start":10367.441,"end":10376.032,"text":"看到這個問題我們要好好的去應對滾動式的一個檢討接下來本席要請教國安局您自個兒的統計報告2020年到現在共諜案的起訴"},{"start":10381.238,"end":10395.148,"text":"有159人那其中現役跟退役的有95人他的占比是60%那上週更傳出有總統府的資議立法院的國會的助理涉這個共諜案"},{"start":10397.41,"end":10412.379,"text":"這一些的事件讓國人就非常非常的不安那麼顯示中共試圖對於我們整個軍事單位以及政府的機關它是進行滲透企圖取得了機密的一個"},{"start":10414.011,"end":10429.712,"text":"這個資訊所以在這樣的情況之下局長面對這樣子的威脅增加那我方如何應應呢你要怎麼樣去加強這個查核來確保我們國家的這個機敏性的資訊能夠得到安全請做說明"},{"start":10430.813,"end":10448.921,"text":"就這部分我想會做這些共諜案的揭露主要是讓我們的社會大眾更可以知道中共對台灣進行滲透的一些手法跟樣態那我們這樣子才能夠強化我們的社會韌性來防範中共對台灣有更多的這些在地協力者網絡的建構這是第一點跟委員說明"},{"start":10449.861,"end":10478.73,"text":"那第二部分是就共諜案來講我們國安情報單位來講我們會分享相關的一個情資情訊那假如有比較明確的一個違法的事證的話我們就會請司法單位來進行偵辦那所以怎麼樣來嚴查嚴辦也是我們在處理共諜案主要的一個處理的因應的方式那第三個部分就是在法治的部分想要能夠來嚴懲共諜案達到嚇阻效果的話我們也必須要來檢視我們的相關的法令規定有沒有不足的地方"},{"start":10479.19,"end":10507.142,"text":"那總統在3月13號召開國安高層會議也有特別提醒要求我們行政部門要針對法律的適用有沒有哪些可以在更精進的地方來做一些檢討那這部分我們國安局跟法務部有在討論除了法律面的檢討但是現在的機關已經到總統府到國會裡頭來這個是非同小可所以我也敬請這個國安局這邊你們的政策方向應對要如何去精進"},{"start":10508.102,"end":10536.436,"text":"這個是很重要的這部分也跟剛剛幾位委員先進在討論也就是政府各機關不管行政部門或是立法院這邊對於一些人員的禁用怎麼樣來建立起一個安查的機制那認為人員的核密階密的等級怎麼樣有一個規範那同時在文書文件的核密也應該要有一套制度那這部分我們在國安單位事實上已經行之有年那假如說立法院也有類似的一個規劃的話我們很樂意來提供相關的意見給大院來做參考"},{"start":10537.577,"end":10557.884,"text":"所以這個除了參考之外我想國家是議題的尤其到了總統府跟這個國會那更要嚴肅的來看待這個議題方案要怎麼做讓我們的國家能夠安全這是非常重要的謝謝謝謝楊全英委員上台質詢接下來由沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":10570.439,"end":10576.361,"text":"謝謝主席那有請這個有請局長然後還有請這個海選署署長謝謝好 謝謝主席 沈委員好謝謝今天移民署有啦 順便問一下移民署移民署署長謝謝"},{"start":10594.127,"end":10618.381,"text":"好 謝謝那這個我想先問一下移民署因為剛好我剛好才看到了因為昨天在協調這個案件那我還是想問一下就是說因為陸委會今天有在另外一邊也有在做這個相關的說明那現在因為這個2004年的這個修法它當時有這一個六個月的這樣的一個規定那因為現在呢畢竟就是說已經過了一段時間"},{"start":10619.341,"end":10642.628,"text":"除了陸委會配套修法之外,現在在法治上有沒有什麼要特別跟民眾說明這件事情?首先說明一下,我們兩岸人民的戶籍,我們是單一戶籍製造,就是說在台灣地區,我們在台灣設有戶籍的國民不得在大陸地區來設有戶籍或領用護照,"},{"start":10643.348,"end":10659.646,"text":"那麼這個案子是在兩岸條例是在93年的時候有做一個修正那當時就是修正就是說在93年以前的這個大陸地區人民必須在六個月內來當時一個溯起的規定"},{"start":10663.57,"end":10677.666,"text":"那這個我們這一次呢這個其實有關這個涉及的這些規定一直以來都是持續在執行移民署在96年以後才成立"},{"start":10679.768,"end":10692.826,"text":"我們在去年十月是在清理就是說我們在清查的是疫情期間那麼延宕下來有些那麼一直我們都是寬延讓因為兩岸這個當時疫情期間那麼邊境"},{"start":10697.892,"end":10718.928,"text":"這個管制的關係所以沒有回去哪的某一職員那也是經過兩年的這個時間我們認為說應該也足夠了那交通也是恢復了很多那所以在去年10月開始就是從疫情期間我們開始來清查93年以前的我就想問說93年以前這個因為畢竟當時是六個月這樣的一個規定"},{"start":10721.79,"end":10742.149,"text":"那其實那個時間已經過了所以這一次我們還是有考量到說即便是時間已經過了但是已經對於我們這個人民的這個身份的一個認定還是非常的關係重要所以我們這一次是通知說要補繳"},{"start":10743.87,"end":10766.467,"text":"所以也是給予一個三個月的一個時間因為畢竟對他們來講這個取得畢竟時間上都有點困難我知道陸委會有在想說有沒有一些配套的措施是這個部分我們也跟陸委會有在開會議就是說原則上我們通知補繳這個是法律的一個規定那如果我們這些"},{"start":10769.069,"end":10796.141,"text":"對象他在實際上實質上他有面臨到什麼樣的一個困難我們也願意來說起他們的意見那這個可能要盡快因為這個人數我看也不少所以可能這個要其實大部分的我們目前我們在台的這個兩岸婚姻的這個路易配偶是有36萬人那其中已經有涉及的是14萬人"},{"start":10797.361,"end":10816.626,"text":"那我們現在清查出來的大概有1萬出頭的是沒有講好那這個就盡快啦因為我昨天有協調昨天協調之後有時候要配套方案因為我覺得這個畢竟也是涉及到第一個他如果回去有一些人是有危險的是這些我們會做考慮跟委員報告那這個署長在那我們在之後的時候等陸委會這邊的結論出來之後讓我再來問"},{"start":10818.786,"end":10847.31,"text":"是是是好 謝謝你的說明好 謝謝我那我問一下這個局長那局長因為這個最近剛好有這一個軍演那所以軍演這邊呢其實少不了一些輿論上的一些操作那我現在當然比較好奇的事情就是說我知道今天大家都比較關心共諜我現在大概都已經問完了我現在比較關心的反而是這一件就是說第一個他們的文宣攻勢當然還是很多這個網路攻擊在這次的夜報其實有特別提到那因為他們這一次也有做出相關的影片"},{"start":10847.91,"end":10860.553,"text":"那這個影片裡面所用的一些用語其實我覺得跟之前也有也不太相同啦那關於這一件事情不管是他們對我們的軍人的心戰還是輿論戰這一次軍演的部分有沒有什麼在之前有做了什麼應對"},{"start":10862.041,"end":10879.832,"text":"對 這一次的演習跟歷來的演習一樣一定都會配合到一些所謂的輿論戰還有正義訊息的一個操作來加大可能對台灣的文攻武嚇的一個總體的一個成效那就在宣傳的部分可以看到他一些官宣的影音動畫"},{"start":10880.752,"end":10908.195,"text":"似乎這一次的推波的力度比過去來的更大那但就演習本身來講我們有注意到比較像是把例行的演習來做一個拼湊那讓例行的演習變成是一種有針對性對台灣的一個針對性的演習那這也是一個比較新的發展趨勢也就是說在軍事上有這樣的一個新的發展動態那在文宣的操作上影音的操作還有圖卡的操作似乎又是這一次演習一個蠻重要的一個心理戰的重點"},{"start":10909.116,"end":10929.604,"text":"對,因為我這次看軍事,它相關的一些補給啊什麼等等之類,看起來沒有很多啦它就是為期,就不會太長的一個演戲但是因為它裡面呢,有特別強調這個所謂的台獨份子啦但它以前也會強調沒有錯那在這一次呢,在這個軍演之前呢,看起來他們相關的一些粉專啊什麼等等之類的台灣的一些在地協力者啊"},{"start":10929.964,"end":10951.335,"text":"都已經特別的再度強調到底誰才是台獨份子嘛誰才應該被懲戒嘛然後又特別在軍演的時候呢用了這些政治性的語言說這個意思又是台獨份子又是死路一條啦那我覺得在今年因為他們在之前法律戰除了2758號決議之外我覺得他們在今年蠻重要的一點就是再度要把這一個框架"},{"start":10951.835,"end":10974.794,"text":"要說台灣內部才是有真正的敵人就是台獨份子才是造成這一個戰亂的根源看起來他們好像持續要操作這件事情那這件事情我覺得就是說以現在就是我剛剛這個在後面我先來台訊我晚點再問就是說我看到有一些公開資料的一些運用譬如說ISP他們最近都會有一些公開資料的一些透明化"},{"start":10975.254,"end":10990.253,"text":"那像我這次看到夜報裡面其實就有一張很不錯的關於網攻的這個圖那于晴其實應該也于晴之前在國安局本來就會固定的一直公佈嘛有時候在夜報有時候是國安局自己這個在媒體上面就直接受訪的時候就會講出來那因為現在"},{"start":10991.094,"end":11016.554,"text":"國外在應對這些輿論戰的時候都有做一些圖像化這個圖像化其實不一定要叫國安局做他可能是外圍的智庫做但國安局這個資料越多越透明他們越能做做了之後就會有一種地圖然後會有時間序列發生了什麼事情他們又操作了什麼輿論其實因為人民在軍演的時候才注意到這個題目的時候要他跟他之前的事件連結沒有那麼容易所以希望國安局能夠再適度地釋出更多的相關的資料"},{"start":11017.074,"end":11039.471,"text":"那這樣可以讓大家對於軍演這件事情有更多的研判那因為時間的關係我再問一下海巡不好意思就是說我看到海巡這一次的這一個你好你好 這個因為我看到這個管主委他有提到就是說這一次的又有很多的一些不管是偷渡啊等等之類清廷啊等等的騷擾那這邊呢其實在每一次的聯合立見我們都可以看到相關的這個騷擾情形這邊有一個圖表"},{"start":11042.173,"end":11070.957,"text":"那這個呢也關係到就是之前我在質詢的時候有問過就是說這一次因為有拍到一些影像那這個是我們在去年質詢的時候呢就在內政委員會的時候就一直特別強調有影像其實能夠讓國人更認識這件事情那看起來這件事情持續有在進步所以我現在反而想我問兩件事情因為時間的關係第一個就是因為之前我知道他們都在講什麼密錄器那其實密錄器根本錄不遠嘛像這一次呢是因為距離很近所以才錄到這些相關的衝突"},{"start":11071.357,"end":11095.402,"text":"所以我想問一下關於尤其是在衝突的時候不管是從無人機的拍攝的角度還是說從我們自己的船隻的拍攝的角度因為中國現在開始會操作說這些都是台灣的船艦的問題一些民用船隻的問題我們現在在這邊相關的配置這些不管是監視攝影機等等之類不管是預算還是配置的這個速度現在如何這是第一個"},{"start":11096.322,"end":11119.596,"text":"第二個就是我們看到下一個就是關於這個AIS我看到這一次其實在這個海底電纜的時候都有特別提到那我上次有提醒過就是說在海外有做了很多這種譬如說不同的船隻誰的AIS先有誰的又沒有他是不是一組等等之類的他可以做一些AI的研判那海巡那時候說其實我們也是可以自己做"},{"start":11120.436,"end":11136.231,"text":"那現在相關的這些不管是在預算上或者在技術上現在有沒有辦法做到這些事情就這兩個問題就好 謝謝這邊跟委員報告這樣有關那個金門事件以後我們所有的監視錄影器包括艦船艇上面我們現在都已經做完備了"},{"start":11137.232,"end":11157.406,"text":"特別跟委員報告我們在應對中國的不管是軍演不管是在金門或者是馬魯地區我們的船艦距離大陸的船艦都非常近我們最近曾經到達將近不大100公尺也就是貼著他們在拍所以我們拍出來效果是非常好的也展現給國人這部分也非常有震撼力這邊特別跟委員報告"},{"start":11158.086,"end":11184.645,"text":"那另外有關航行在我們周邊的權益輪部分我們根據航港局提供的這個權益部分我們完全可以掌握在台灣周邊航行的相關權益輪那我們現在掌握的有96艘的中資備檢權益輪那只要它一接近我們的這個臨海跟臨街區我們就會做監控然後請航港局以船騎國的管理方式先廣播那廣播不聽了我們會被船艦去登檢"},{"start":11185.445,"end":11199.902,"text":"那這個部分我們這個部分對於海面的目標我們是完全可以掌握的這邊特別跟我們報告好那現在就我最後一句就好了因為時間已經到了就是說因為畢竟現在我們有資料庫那有資料庫知道有哪些船隻剛剛講有九十幾艘嘛"},{"start":11200.242,"end":11226.596,"text":"那這個跟AI判斷又是另外一件事AI判斷的意思是說呢其實我們現在有資料庫這些資料庫的傳資跟別的傳資的互動比如說它的AIS這個關了這個馬上開它會不會是一組的就是說有這些判斷之後呢這個資料庫還有擴充的空間我指的是這件事情那因為時間的關係呢我就之後再繼續追蹤這件事謝謝主席謝謝局長跟兩位署長好 謝謝委員謝謝沈博洋召委上台的諮詢接下來由李坤成委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11236.204,"end":11261.985,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請國安局蔡局長不好意思 要不要先 局長先喝口水再上來 沒關係好 謝謝李委員局長好 這個本席請教一下在今年的4月1號 這個中國有一個聯合演訓但是它並沒有公布代號那當然有人說那是不是漁人節的關係 所以它沒有公布代號"},{"start":11263.07,"end":11281.906,"text":"但是他在4月2號他就有一個海峽雷霆2025A的一個演習請教一下局長就是說這個4月1號的沒有公佈代號您知道說他的用意在哪裡嗎有人是解讀說是不是他的演習軍演已經常態化了所以也不用代號了"},{"start":11283.558,"end":11310.478,"text":"基本上我們剛剛也跟其他委員在說明了覺得這次的演習比較像是把一些例行性的演習來做一個整合也是指4月1號還是4月2號這次演習整合看起來是這樣因為一般來講假如是一個規劃比較完整的演習的話可能在演習的第一個時間點就有一個演習代號出來但這一次在第一天並沒有但它已經達到了演習的規模但到了第二天才又來了一個演習的代號來延續第一天的演習"},{"start":11311.138,"end":11329.782,"text":"那這樣的做法在以前比較少看到所以局長你是認為說他這次的演習是比較衝突的我是有這個意思那為什麼會衝突來舉辦這個演習他的用意在哪裡因為在時間點上我剛才跟其他委員在報告因為時間點事實上離3月13號賴總統的國安高層會議已經隔了有兩三個禮拜的時間"},{"start":11335.003,"end":11364.015,"text":"那那個時間點有比較特殊的是美國國防部有所謂的在印太的戰略佈局會有比較壓制中共維護區域現狀的這些規劃那可能讓中共覺得他必須要有一些反制的動作那再加上當時是因為美國的國防部部長那個Hexes他剛好在關島日本跟菲律賓做訪問所以幾乎就在美國防長離開日本之後這個演習就啟動了所以我們感覺上演習的規劃上似乎沒有過去那麼的"},{"start":11365.495,"end":11391.7,"text":"所以那如果這樣子的話他的演習是演給台灣看還是演給美國看?我想他的演習不只是演給外界看也在演給內部看因為時間上也包括到他內部正在整肅東部戰區的相關的重要的將領那透過這種演習對內還是有一些功能在政治的功能一方面讓軍心可以比較集中在演訓而不要去在乎這些政治動盪或政治清洗整肅的議題"},{"start":11392.72,"end":11410.689,"text":"另一方面也可以讓外界知道說中國即使內部在進行政治的整肅軍隊在進行清洗但是它還是有能力來組織這種有相當規模的軍事演習所以在考量的面向非常的多所以是國安局對於這個4月1號跟4月2號的演習的整個概括的評估就對了對"},{"start":11413.011,"end":11433.953,"text":"我問一下你們報告的第一頁其實寫的說現在川普政府的政策就是美國優先然後以集中資源對中國的威脅那我請教一下像這次川普的關稅戰是不是也是屬於集中資源對中國威脅的一個策略方法"},{"start":11434.654,"end":11460.003,"text":"因為在看他的相關的政策規劃背後的一些思維來講那我不知道委員有沒有注意到在歐洲地區那大概美國現在是希望歐洲盟友能夠更負擔起歐洲安全的責任但在中東地區可能也是希望盡快的穩定當地的局面那以便更多的資源可以投注到印太地區來而且假如委員注意到美國的相關的國防資源的配置印太地區也"},{"start":11460.883,"end":11481.886,"text":"會是未來的一個關注的重點所以用這樣子的方式來理解跟推論的話可以理解到可能美國對於中共在安全或戰略面對美國構成的挑戰他們非常的重視而做一些比較全盤的規劃美國現在最常用的一個字叫Pacing Challenge就是一個中共是一個不斷迫近的一個挑戰跟威脅"},{"start":11483.207,"end":11496.202,"text":"所以關稅戰是不是也要...關稅的部分也是我想美國現在加總對中國的關稅已經超過100%以上了等一下12點就是正式生效了加起來有超過104%"},{"start":11497.904,"end":11518.417,"text":"我剛要跟委員報告的是不管從安全戰略面或是從經貿面因為美國除了有關稅以外另外還有小院高牆的意思就是針對高科技的管制出口以及避免中國大陸產品的洗產地相關的一個規劃所以整體解讀起來會覺得對中有相當程度的針對性"},{"start":11519.318,"end":11538.04,"text":"那接下來會不會繼續影響到這個中國的經濟因為我看你們的報告上面有寫到說中國內部的這個經濟社會形勢是嚴峻的這個經濟成長率有可能會下調那當然經過關稅戰之後有可能再往下再調那也就是說他的這個經濟持續不正那甚至年輕人的這個失業率"},{"start":11538.621,"end":11555.242,"text":"一樣是非常高那有沒有一種可能性就是說中國因為受到這個關稅戰的挑戰然後經濟受到影響那內部的這一個不管是民族主義或是軍事力量要抬頭會把這個焦點由內轉外又對台灣造成影響"},{"start":11556.096,"end":11576.502,"text":"對 不能排除任何的可能性那委員剛剛講到經濟的問題確實也是我們在關注的重點因為剛剛我們在夜報裡面有提到國際的各方面的金融機構對於中共的整體的經濟成長率估算大概今年只有4%到4.6%比中共官方想要預期達到5%"},{"start":11577.222,"end":11595.321,"text":"這真的是在關稅戰之前做出來的那現在假如是關稅戰再加租上來的話也有國際的機構在評估假如美國的關稅對中國有到六成的話那中共的GDP受到影響可能會有2%到3%之多那更何況現在的關稅已經加高到那會不會把這個壓力由內轉外"},{"start":11597.623,"end":11623.112,"text":"就是說不能排除任何的可能性對當然有兩種可能一種可能是因為經濟不好他必須要聚焦在國內的經濟問題那不要再節外生枝但是另外一種可能性就在於說也有可能利用這個機會來轉移內部的壓力透過一些外部的一個情勢的升高的操作那這部分我們會嚴密的來注意因為退論歸退論最重要的還是回到我們國安或國防部對於中共相關軍事動態"},{"start":11624.512,"end":11652.592,"text":"的聯合情監偵的能量能夠把它發揮那一有任何動態我們就可以預警的話就可以避免到剛剛委員所擔心發生的一個狀況好 我最後一個問題請教一下這一個 那等一下請這個移民署署長是不是一起上來就是說現在有有這個有三個中配這個被強制出境了嘛包含這個什麼雅雅 小薇 恩綺他們現在已經回到中國了那對於他們回到中國的這個狀態你們有沒有掌握到"},{"start":11654.794,"end":11672.153,"text":"我們也是從就是公開的語情裡面來掌握所以跟我看得到是一樣的就是說那但是也有眾說紛紜有的說他馬上就被接走了安置得很好啊那個也是公開的語情所以你們沒有掌握到就對了沒有掌握到那在局長這邊有掌握到訊息嗎我們後續再繼續來注意"},{"start":11677.154,"end":11686.367,"text":"好那我再問一下移民署署長那現在還有沒有這一種有居留權的中配因為違反這個武統言論那還在處理當中的"},{"start":11688.406,"end":11713.553,"text":"目前我們現階段掌握的應該是到目前是這三個案子就拘留犬的案子那具有台灣身份證的咧那後續應該是還有一些案子還有一些案子再處理就對了只是因為他們具有台灣的身份證比較複雜是是好那我了解了好謝謝謝謝李坤誠委員上台質詢接下來有鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11715.242,"end":11732.144,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員那接下來有王宏威委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我請我們蔡局長"},{"start":11739.088,"end":11751.321,"text":"好 辛苦了局長請教一下其實現在我們重中之重就是針對美國的關稅戰特別是雖然這是全球的問題但是因為終究對台灣來講我們是一個外銷"},{"start":11754.965,"end":11770.653,"text":"為主要的導向的一個國家而且呢說實在我們真的也經不起這樣的一個這麼高的關稅所以我今天有注意到早上這個我們局長也有特別提到就說我們現在確實已經會派"},{"start":11773.474,"end":11792.484,"text":"這個特使團然後去跟美方做交涉但是我們知道按照我們過去的經驗其實經濟部在今年初就有派過一個代表團但是非常可惜我想局長也很清楚其實我們並沒有見到什麼主要的key man所以我想請問一下"},{"start":11794.215,"end":11819.742,"text":"局長我們這一次的對美的交涉例如說我們過去比如說在APEC像張忠謀先生歷次都擔任我們這個總統的特使去參加國際性的會議所以他跟外國很多的領袖都是好朋友更不要說台積電在川普總統裡面也認為是一個信譽及卓著非常良好的公司"},{"start":11820.422,"end":11843.036,"text":"所以今天我們有提到就是我們的副總召有提到建議是不是能夠敦請張忠謀先生在這一次台灣這樣的一個危機中可不可以來擔任我們的一個特使去跟對美交涉所以我不曉得局長你對這樣的看法你覺得如何"},{"start":11843.713,"end":11855.863,"text":"尊重委員的一些意見那也可以理解委員背後的問題意識當然是擔心說台灣在這一波的關稅的衝擊之下對我們的產業會產生一些影響那所以委員的這些建議我們尊重"},{"start":11856.648,"end":11874.873,"text":"因為我們現在知道有好幾十個國家將近百個國家都在排隊跟美國想要交涉但是我想我們如果今天是派出張忠謀先生至少我想我們可以應該可以排的順序應該比較前面一點所以局長你同不同意我的"},{"start":11875.493,"end":11897.685,"text":"尊重委員的分析好那局長另外一個很重要的事情你們的報告也說有關於這個共諜案那麼最近大家高度的關心那麼過去五年起訴的159人裡面有六成都是現金人或者是退役的軍人但是最近我們出現就是發現"},{"start":11898.866,"end":11921.912,"text":"在不管是在立法院裡面立法院委員的助理或者是總統府的資議或者是議員的助理或者是像民進黨民主學院裡面的他們的主任前副主任相繼的發生就是涉入共諜案這個當然也引起社會很大的震撼那麼"},{"start":11924.093,"end":11943.906,"text":"局長我想請問一下就你所了解現在有關於相關的共諜案涉嫌他滲入在執政黨或者是在立法院執政黨的立委或者議員或者是相關機構裡面這樣的案情到底嚴不嚴重"},{"start":11945.647,"end":11963.096,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為早上我也跟媒體朋友在報告共諜案它因為涉及到背叛國家傷害國家利益所以就我們國安情報機關來講只要有相關的線索的話我們一定會全力的來查查全力的來偵辦那也不會分任何的黨派也不管它是什麼樣的職務"},{"start":11963.916,"end":11992.83,"text":"所以只要有這樣的個案的話我們就依照相關的事證來收集情訊那有必要就來提供給檢調單位來做偵辦局長這個事件為什麼也引起高度的關注譬如說你當過前立法院院長的助理因為你所接觸的資料當然又不一樣那個等級證都不一樣還有這個當然我覺得這不是黨派之爭而是作為執政黨的民意代表的助理"},{"start":11993.49,"end":12020.206,"text":"也陸陸續續的涉入所以我才想請問局長這個事件現在我們所了解的大概有四個人當然我也注意到民進黨相繼的開除了他們的黨籍那這個案件有沒有擴大的可能或跡象就個案來講希望能夠得到委員的理解因為個案我比較不適合去談它的案情或案況因為檢方已經在立案偵辦"},{"start":12021.328,"end":12045.143,"text":"那我請問局長 這裡面其中有一位 叫做盛楚英那麼他竟然是20萬元交保 就像您所說的 涉入共諜案他可能已經涉及交付國家的機密 或者一些機密文件20萬可以交保 這是辦共諜案的"},{"start":12045.723,"end":12066.47,"text":"一個標準嗎而且他立刻去關閉他所有的社交平台那這個其實大家外界就會認為他立刻是不是有這種滅政的可能所以如果辦共諜案20萬交保這個水準從國安局的角度來看會不會增加到時候辦案的一個困難度"},{"start":12067.33,"end":12092.577,"text":"我們比較不適合去評論審理機關就是法院他對於要不要交保以及交保金額額度的一個裁判那我們尊重法院的一個相關的裁決沒有局長我知道你不願意對個案去做說明但是我要講的就是這個案子到目前為止因為他牽涉了他不是只有一位他就牽涉了好幾位那我們不曉得是不是一個集體辦案的行為"},{"start":12093.397,"end":12122.568,"text":"但是裡面其中有一位而且是20萬交保我今天要特別講的如果除非他只是他並不是共諜案但是如果真的已經被涉及到共諜案然後20萬元就交保然後又可以准許他可以快速的關閉他所有的這些相關的平台我覺得這個是未來整個的辦案可能這次要國安局也要跟檢調單位去做一些溝通的"},{"start":12123.291,"end":12148.542,"text":"你同不同意對大概理解委員提到這樣的一個樣態要注意的地方那這我們再來加強注意但我必須跟委員說明的是共諜案是媒體的用語那每個案情案況可能都不太一樣那這可能會影響到剛剛委員所知好我最後對不起最後請教一下今天早上徐巧欣委員有特別提到我但是你覺得說巧欣委員的資訊是"},{"start":12149.702,"end":12159.966,"text":"他那個資訊是不是正確的所以我是很善意的提醒所以你是否認嗎 你是否認嗎就是國安局裡面的不是 他那個 我跟委員說明一下就是當時的質詢的內容的"},{"start":12162.921,"end":12188.954,"text":"是不是正確的內容那我很怕他做這樣的指控會有一些不必要的問題我指的是法律問題所以我是適度的在提醒你的內容是不太正確的如果國安局裡面也出現有人涉嫌供點案我覺得是非同小可所以恐怕也許您的用字要更為精準一些然後我老實講我會認為該承認就要承認該澄清就要澄清"},{"start":12189.654,"end":12215.007,"text":"因為我覺得現在真的已經營造一個匪諜就在你身邊尤其我們自己在立法院裡面我們自己也非常小心啊對不對應該的所以這一部分我覺得他能夠應該該澄清該承認我覺得不要讓民眾有任何的覺得這個訊息是有模糊的空間好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝王國威委員的上台資訊接下來有林義軍委員上台訊"},{"start":12218.359,"end":12224.483,"text":"抱歉 蘇清前委員蘇清前委員蘇清前委員不在葉延之委員葉延之委員葉延之委員不在那鄭振全委員鄭振全委員鄭振全委員不在接下來由林一軍委員上台資訊"},{"start":12259.172,"end":12262.713,"text":"謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案"},{"start":12285.987,"end":12302.008,"text":"案件數量大幅的提升那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢"},{"start":12302.869,"end":12330.648,"text":"應該都有 一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄"},{"start":12332.469,"end":12361.999,"text":"越強化那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了"},{"start":12362.399,"end":12381.587,"text":"但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污治罪條例來起訴是嗎"},{"start":12386.026,"end":12407.601,"text":"對 就每個供應典案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣"},{"start":12408.121,"end":12423.226,"text":"好 那我們看一下螢幕 北溪就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的 那我想請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎"},{"start":12428.528,"end":12450.903,"text":"對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此"},{"start":12451.423,"end":12468.584,"text":"那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的那個刑責大概都平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右"},{"start":12470.126,"end":12489.068,"text":"這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果"},{"start":12489.488,"end":12512.083,"text":"避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年"},{"start":12517.146,"end":12534.497,"text":"所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢"},{"start":12536.297,"end":12562.287,"text":"對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間"},{"start":12563.988,"end":12580.666,"text":"那如果文職人員涉及洩密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低洩密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的洩密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢"},{"start":12581.747,"end":12596.101,"text":"對 我想我們不只是文職啦 軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外"},{"start":12597.202,"end":12613.142,"text":"本局的人員的相關的揭秘的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關和密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流"},{"start":12614.804,"end":12642.724,"text":"那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們"},{"start":12644.648,"end":12650.79,"text":"謝謝林議員上台發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好這次下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是聯動的那請問局長"},{"start":12672.637,"end":12685.424,"text":"那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那裡面的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好"},{"start":12696.97,"end":12713.616,"text":"所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢"},{"start":12714.436,"end":12735.654,"text":"對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了"},{"start":12737.475,"end":12763.763,"text":"不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑釁的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位"},{"start":12764.563,"end":12777.692,"text":"能夠有聯合情堅真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢"},{"start":12780.234,"end":12808.206,"text":"是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢"},{"start":12809.248,"end":12831.645,"text":"就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力"},{"start":12832.245,"end":12858.257,"text":"威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識"},{"start":12858.957,"end":12883.926,"text":"才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那委員只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的"},{"start":12884.363,"end":12893.608,"text":"好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚"},{"start":12913.658,"end":12931.383,"text":"所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林議卿委員上台質詢"},{"start":12936.345,"end":12955.432,"text":"已登記執行委員除不在場外均於發言完畢報告及詢答的結束那委員口頭執行為其答覆部分或要求補充的資料者請相關單位以書面以兩週內答覆委員另約定"},{"start":12957.573,"end":12969.065,"text":"這個期限者從其所定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}