{"error":false,"id":["165768"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165768,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165768","日期":"2025-11-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-24T10:14:06+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-24T10:24:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103e7cb10843dd6c3a9408e1b0d34147d1469bc65e346f37e4c232082a5edcaf1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:14:06 - 10:24:02","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n\n邀請環境部部長就「聯合國第30屆氣候峰會之後台灣氣候治理方向與如何提升台灣『氣候變遷績效指標』名次，落實2050淨零排放路徑策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n【業務報告及專題報告綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.88534375,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.62784375,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.67846875,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.14659375,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.71096875,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.76534375,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.38096875,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.570343750000006,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.48159375,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.49846875,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.76284375,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.39721875000001,"end":123.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.37034375,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.02784375000002,"end":128.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.17971875,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.83784375000002,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.68096875,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.23784375,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.80221875,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.20721875,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.73034375,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.91596875000002,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.48409375,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.70284375,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.35596875000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.48221875000002,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.35971875,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.30846875,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.40909375,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.73221875000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.38909375,"end":200.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.77596875,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.12159375000002,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.76596875,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.38159375,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.84471875000003,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.02471875,"end":242.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.60909375000003,"end":247.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.04284375,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.66659375,"end":254.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.99909375000004,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.53471875,"end":270.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.72284375000004,"end":279.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.78471875,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.12971875,"end":289.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.21409375,"end":286.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":296.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.85346875000005,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.57846875,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.61409375,"end":337.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.96971875,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.53409375,"end":344.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.55096875000004,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.56784375,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.63534375,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.41159375,"end":349.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.67659375,"end":359.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.70471875000004,"end":363.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.24846875000003,"end":371.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.87596875,"end":389.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.31596875,"end":403.2759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一樣請彭部長有請彭部長委員好 部長還好啦坐四十幾個小時飛機啦可能被傳染 有點感冒資訊沒問題嗎沒有問題 備訓沒問題"},{"start":25.836,"end":42.225,"text":"那我請問一下這個部長剛剛還是一樣就是CCPI的問題那排名台灣排名是59名屬於全球性這個非常差的等級那這是評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放營能源結構那"},{"start":44.557,"end":56.912,"text":"前两年 那两年我们的核能还在运转再生能源也比前一年多一点也就是说就算有核电撑着再生能源勉强前进一点点我们依然只有59名"},{"start":58.615,"end":77.154,"text":"部長沒錯吧對 沒錯對啊 我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠這個石化燃料主要跟燃氣跟燃煤那到現在是現在有時候是火力全開火力發電全開那CCPI給台灣的評分理會很清楚天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源"},{"start":77.774,"end":92.668,"text":"那能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進這個減排速度太慢再生能源進度落後 風電延宕那2025年核電正式退出火力必須補上"},{"start":94.309,"end":112.236,"text":"那包含燃氣燃煤通通要往上拉這是你們政府的能源你們現在的能源規劃那部長我現在請問你一句非常簡單的問題那有核電的時候我們都是排到59名那明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下你認為CCPI的排名會進步嗎還是會退步"},{"start":113.576,"end":139.627,"text":"包委員因為CCPI它的評比有定向又有定性也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起所以基本上它的這個分數評比明智怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議那另外一個是你們是 你當然啦你是認為說它用人均排放不合理嘛對不對因為委員你講到核能像韓國它排在我們後面它的核能也佔了快要20%那我再問你那我現在意思就是說我們在未來這個部分有機會上升嗎"},{"start":141.271,"end":167.39,"text":"你有信心嗎我認為委員這個它並不是一個我說我等於是有人願意做這個評比我們都歡迎但是它如果是一個很有規模很有公信力它評比很正常的機構因為我只看到你在質疑就是說它用人均這個人均排放來評比不太公平那其他的你們表示說你們是默認還是怎麼樣"},{"start":168.602,"end":183.529,"text":"基本上這個就是一個NGO提出一些建議一些報告而已因為台灣把燃氣包裝成這個潔淨橋樑的燃料把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源這是誤導性的做法嘛等於是直接打臉我們政府民進黨政府的能源政策"},{"start":184.169,"end":200.234,"text":"報告委員因為他有些專家會這樣認為但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量還有它的污染的確都比較低所以我們現在選擇的就是說講我們好的那種專家我們才是比較認為他是專家那這種的專家就不是專家了"},{"start":201.314,"end":227.512,"text":"就是不一樣的看法嘛但是整個國際上像我舉例 例如說新加坡沒有在裡面新加坡的這個燃氣大概占了95%所以基本上因為每個國家的地點條件因為全球暖化問題當然不會只有看這個碳排大國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%因為甲烷的洩漏就比藍莓更髒 更暖化那甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍"},{"start":229.093,"end":247.752,"text":"那液化天然氣從開採壓縮液化運輸載到氣化每一段都會洩漏啊所以不管是IPCC這個1.5C的模型全球這個減排路徑全部都把甲烷算進去風險這部分你們可能不知道啊"},{"start":248.753,"end":270.528,"text":"那個甲烷我們是我們台灣不是甲烷的出口這個進口我們是使用國那開採造成的碳排是屬於那個國家他造成的物質造業但是有需求就有開採他自己就要算算在他自己的那我們是算說這個甲烷它本身的排量量多少所以他這樣的這個說法有一點跟實際上的減碳的這個算法是不大一樣的"},{"start":270.788,"end":296.603,"text":"那我再問一下就是說在這個淨零碳排的議題上我們環境部應該是要主導的嘛怎麼感覺我們都是配合經濟部沒有啊我們其實這個都是整個減碳的報告是經濟部是負責能源的部分那我們是負責整個匯整各個部會因為這個部分會不會影響環境我覺得你們要更清楚一點這是你們的業務嘛不要被經濟部牽著走不要被經濟部牽著走"},{"start":298.935,"end":318.041,"text":"沒有啊 這個我們都是彼此在公平公正的在討論這個事情那風電 因為光風電帶給我們人的影響之間我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少這個機會提升那我們未來有沒有能力降低這個燃氣的發電量還是只能往上衝"},{"start":318.883,"end":343.911,"text":"基本上燃氣現在規劃到2030 2035大概都不會超過50都40幾%那希望再生能源能夠順利能夠拉起來所以我們的確在國家的NDC3.0裡面就有制定一些能源的一個結構所以其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右那希望燃煤可以降到大概20%以上好啦部長你再看 你再注意這個議題啦好不好不要被又被排到最後一名去了"},{"start":344.571,"end":358.985,"text":"不會不會不會這個我再請教一下光除暗場要不要做環評光除暗場目前是應該是不用吧因為他是屬於在這個一些的設施者下面"},{"start":360.081,"end":388.9,"text":"不一定喔 有些是在社區旁邊跟委員報告 目前我們的環評相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施去要求說要辦理環評因為儲能設施因為我看到就是說很多地方都在反對啦我都在反對這個問題也不是說今天才發生的一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續看到民眾在抗爭那有些抗爭強一點的他就停下來的沒有抗爭的就繼續做所以我覺得這個部分你們有沒有想過要有一個規範"},{"start":390.802,"end":402.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前有收到有一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮那在我們修訂環評的認定標準的時候我們可以一起來把它做一個討論然後再看是不是把它納入我們的現在規定"},{"start":404.187,"end":423.175,"text":"居民不了解嘛我不敢說他一定會影響旁邊但是我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來讓業者或者民眾也比較懂這個要不然他隨時要設那民眾就恐慌而且他沒有經過環評也沒有說明會沒有說明沒有經過環評就沒有說明會沒有說明會"},{"start":425.892,"end":445.658,"text":"這個老百姓就會不懂不懂的話如果有人講什麼他們當然就會擔心因為這個部分因為離電池在旁邊第一會不會造成身體的影響第二會不會造成這個有風險就是萬一失火我們消防的設施的規範是怎麼樣這些都是要納入考量的"},{"start":448.212,"end":474.104,"text":"這個我們會來討論那其實委員這個有一些再生能源或是新型態的或許是需要大家多一點了解不是說每一個都對我有害不然的話我們現在電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑那是不是會有害所以基本上這個社會的溝通認知這個不一樣啦車子當然你汽油也會爆炸你不能這樣講啦 對不對所以你不能把這個鋰電池把它裝成這個跟除冷廠我這是兩件事"},{"start":475.224,"end":490.28,"text":"這是兩件事情 不要把它混為一堂那問題這個是固定的如果它有危險它是固定的在我住的旁邊是長期在那裡的車子我有開才有上路才會有比較危險啊對不對 你不能這樣比較啊對不對"},{"start":492.216,"end":519.309,"text":"然後我們是希望你們把這個東西規範寫出來讓業者也好讓我們的老百姓也好都能夠比較清楚那最後一個就是光電三法三讀後我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發增加成本所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場這個光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見那你們之前態度也一直"},{"start":520.109,"end":535.912,"text":"不是要寫死要先觀察慢慢研議那現在已經我們國民黨民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面你們反而不用去當壞人照理講環境部應該鬆一口氣那現在越來越反彈環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":537.558,"end":559.251,"text":"其實我們都有規劃在我們的執法裡面要訂而且我們的執法如果一公告然後就要來做公聽本來就是這兩個月要做的事情那我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我說他要修改的時候他說那個數額可以來討論可是我覺得這一次修改因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外不好意思沒有參與到但是我是認為是在這個到底多少的量"},{"start":559.898,"end":578.824,"text":"要環評的部分的話沒有經過一個科學的討論就直接表決就過了我覺得這是我比較遺憾的地方那個可以討論那你會當這個環境永續的守門人嗎我們當然是守門人阿你不要遇到壓力等下要開後門給人家走了喔不會不會 因為那個法已經在母法在那邊我們要"},{"start":579.625,"end":593.326,"text":"環境部要改也是很困難我們也只能遵照大院的一個指示但是守護環境能夠不要破壞環境的一個情況下讓公眾能夠多了解什麼是環評然後多少要環評衝擊是什麼這個也是很重要的好 謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}