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歡迎 歡迎中國鋼鐵古文有限公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟台灣高等教育產業工會研究員陳柏謙行政官員 勞動部常務次長陳明仁"},{"start":1979.943,"end":1983.644,"text":"勞動關係師師長王厚為勞動福祉退休師專門委員邱倩麗勞動條件及就業平等師專門委員李怡萱"},{"start":2005.872,"end":2025.666,"text":"職業安全衛生署檢任計政 葉錦棠歡迎 歡迎行政院主計處專門委員 廖玉琳歡迎經濟部國營事業管理師 副司長 劉啟孝商業發展署副組長 熊立恆好 歡迎"},{"start":2036.364,"end":2061.32,"text":"商業發展署產業發展署科長李安和李安和 對不起李安和 OK中小及新創企業署科長張志豪財政部護稅署專門委員林美惠好 歡迎 謝謝國庫署集合何山盈"},{"start":2062.662,"end":2073.392,"text":"好 歡迎 法務部法治司檢察官李子綺遊說者出席名單代表全國教育產業總工會理事長李碩傑要不要來"},{"start":2088.936,"end":2092.138,"text":"選國教師工會總聯合會執行長洪維斌台灣石油工會理事長陳嘉琳"},{"start":2118.231,"end":2145.441,"text":"好 謝謝台灣鐵路企業工會 理事長 童世哲好 歡迎 歡迎中華郵政工會 台北分會 理事長 陳育吟台灣電力產業工會 理事長 歐子明好 歡迎南亞電路板企業工會 理事長 孫守凱"},{"start":2151.304,"end":2156.505,"text":"資深社運人士 毛振飛中華民國國際機場工會聯合會秘書長 杜光瑜"},{"start":2173.482,"end":2180.593,"text":"好 我們接續請勞動部次長來報告 時間5分鐘我跟大家報告 今天時間要嚴格控管"},{"start":2186.455,"end":2212.52,"text":"主席各位委員各位參與公聽會的先進感謝委員會的邀請由我來向各位報告公衛法議題相關的修法的狀況為了使公衛組織能夠根據代表性案凝聚力發揮集體協商的功能有效建構集體勞資關係正常發展的目標在100年5月1號修正實行的公衛法已經把公衛由許可制成立由許可制改為登記制"},{"start":2213.38,"end":2238.713,"text":"而且開放相關產業勞工可以直接籌組或加入跨越場域事業單位的縱向型類型產業別的工會組織希望能夠透過勞工團結權的保護、工會會務自主化以及工會運作民主化的工會發展原則達到保障勞工團結權的目標勞動部歷年來都把提升勞工組織率列為重要的政策之一"},{"start":2239.193,"end":2256.315,"text":"也積極在協助勞工籌組工會訂定各項輔導勞工籌組工會推動工會會務正常發展的措施對於勞工在組織工會前、中、後也提供各式各樣的補助和獎勵措施協助提升工會幹部的職能維持工會會務的正常運作"},{"start":2258.357,"end":2279.276,"text":"依照憲法法庭112年憲判之第7號針對公衛法適應細則第二條第一項及第二項有關同意廠廠相關規定的判決前概規定的目的是為了使各地勞工、行政主管機關在受理轄區內的廠廠工會辦理登記時有所依循"},{"start":2280.357,"end":2306.662,"text":"而且要求得組織廠廠企業工會的廠廠要具備經營功能以利其工會與僱主之間對等的協商進而簽訂團體協約提升會員的勞動權益也要求要設立工會必須要有一定的獨立性這是為了避免小規模的工會淋漓多數工會無行使團體協商的實力或雖然可以行使法定四項同意權與工會幹部價等"},{"start":2308.562,"end":2331.296,"text":"權力的主體過多會導致牢牢相爭的結果所以如果沒有給予合理的限制反而會有害於勞工團結勞工權益保護以及實施的目的因此呢這個憲法法庭的判決是認為工會應該還是要具備一定的獨立性這樣一個限制沒有抵觸憲法20條的比例原則可是他還認為這樣一個重要的事項應該"},{"start":2333.177,"end":2356.653,"text":"要有憲法法律保留原則的適用所以做了警告性的裁判於判決後屆滿兩年會施其效力勞動部為了符合憲法法庭判決的意旨以及所揭示的法律保留原則明確在工會法中對廠廠的定義案要見來加以明確規範以保障勞工的團結權所以本次的修正"},{"start":2357.253,"end":2375.613,"text":"只是將公衛法適應細則有關廠廠的定義和要件提升位階在母法公衛法裡面來配合增訂另外也配合相關的營業登記規則修正為稅級登記規則調整相關的文字以使各法規的用語能夠均於一致"},{"start":2376.974,"end":2402.263,"text":"此外呢也對於單獨設計會計單位設置會計單位的要件針對專業專責的會計人員這邊做了一些文字上的處理讓他可以更明確也稍微有具有一點彈性本次工會法第六條之一第七條的修正因為涉及到廠廠勞工成立工會的重要事項我們希望透過這樣一支的公聽會來聆聽各位委員先進的意見達到明確廠廠工會籌組要件並保障勞工"},{"start":2406.985,"end":2432.657,"text":"團結前的目標以上報告進行指教祝福主席委員還有各位先進身體健康萬事如意謝謝因為這個是我們立法院正式舉辦的公聽會所以本次會議部會局寫者專家所提供之相關書面資料經會列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2436.874,"end":2459.868,"text":"那一位人員發言前我們先告第一學者專家遊說代表及本院委員每人發言四分鐘第五分鐘後就給你關麥克風了對不起為簡報方便第二個學者專家及遊說代表發言請至主席台右邊發言台"},{"start":2460.99,"end":2487.012,"text":"原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如果要發言已經來主席台前面登記齁那第四個學者專家及委員發言完畢後接著請遊說代表依簽到順序發言之後再請行政機關做整體的回應那我們原則上就十點半休息十分鐘好"},{"start":2488.686,"end":2498.735,"text":"我們現在就開始了我們補充介紹臺灣電力公司臺東區營業處企業工會理事長謝雪霞我們現在請第一位臺灣電力工會理事長吳友斌發言謝謝"},{"start":2523.505,"end":2526.191,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位"},{"start":2527.406,"end":2553.462,"text":"理事先生大家好那謝謝貴文會的邀請召開工會法修法及產產工會設立的遷移問題公聽會台灣電力工會就工會實務疫情層面及影響提出說明進行各位委員以先進不吝指教那大概有提出六點的一個說明那本會對於修法相關內容之意見陳述第一個"},{"start":2554.883,"end":2575.097,"text":"廠長定義應該要很明確不宜各自解讀或設立條件的不公平因為廠長細指獨自是經營部冊還是單獨登記公司登記商業登記或稅籍登記是營業單位恐因解讀而造成地方主管機關審核之困難"},{"start":2577.199,"end":2600.825,"text":"那第二形成復甦工會後是否強制加入造成勞工負擔及權益的一個爭議依據工會法第七條的一個規定勞工應加入企業工會在一致性的體制之企業中形成如形成復甦工會等個別勞工經已加入那勞工勢必造成"},{"start":2602.182,"end":2615.307,"text":"一些負擔若則依加入是我有違公衛法第七條的規定且不同公衛團體協商的勞動條件是否適用於同一團體內的勞工恐將產生不必要的勞資爭議"},{"start":2617.079,"end":2637.909,"text":"那第三復甦公會亦導致意見分歧更難以雇主協商大家都知道過往的案例之所以會有復甦公會的產生無非是公會間的利益不一致而且所謂的協商必定是勞方形成一定的共識才有可能向雇主進行協商談判因此"},{"start":2639.732,"end":2647.371,"text":"勉強讓附屬公衛湊在一起和同一僱主協商反而是橫生枝節使得協商根本無法進行"},{"start":2648.513,"end":2669.073,"text":"第四點法定事項協商前難以認定衍生少數人代表多數人之餘力事業單位有廠長工會者有關工作時間休息休假等權益應經廠長工會同意若按現行法規規定30個人以上的連署即可成立工會"},{"start":2670.074,"end":2684.378,"text":"若再加上放寬廠廠的標準 未來廠廠工會成員組織的代表性也不足於企業工會恐造成少數人決定多數人之歉意有違比例原則不利單位勞資關係的發展第五點 複數工會亦導致"},{"start":2691.055,"end":2719.229,"text":"勞資溝通低能效能的一個低下影響員工權益在政府大力推動下也有不少企業以及對應的企業工會簽訂團體協約並即提供會務架及會務辦理所需的一個設施若將廠廠定義放寬是將導致行政資源浪費嚴重影響勞資溝通之效能造成勞資關係硬座之自愛"},{"start":2720.782,"end":2741.247,"text":"公衛法施行細則第二條雖抵觸憲法保留原則 違內容並無不當那憲法法庭的112年判決公衛法施行細則第二條第一項第二項規定違憲之理由是違反法律保留原則並非認定現有的條文有何不當"},{"start":2742.347,"end":2763.755,"text":"原將現有公衛法施行細則第二條第一項第二項規定提升到法例未接即可以解決違憲問題那國勞核心公約基準是由勞資政三方共同參與透過協商形成所謂的共識各國都在其憲法上承認勞工之勞動三權即團結權協商權正義權其中又以團結權為保障協商權正義權之基礎"},{"start":2770.457,"end":2799.05,"text":"勞工為有團結權受到充分保障才得以組織強而有力的勞工團體以雇主進行協商或爭議行為那我國已從過去的廠廠為主的中小企業發展為大型公司集團事業甚至跨國公司的形態國內法令應促進並引進勞工團體隨著事業單位逐漸走向大型化也朝向大型公會發展若企業"},{"start":2800.45,"end":2819.08,"text":"內部小公衛林立牢牢相爭更行激烈美其民結社自由那實質是讓勞工難以行使團結權弱化勞工團結力量非公衛法立法的目的結社自由必須建立在一個落實團結權的基礎上我們都深知"},{"start":2820.593,"end":2843.145,"text":"團結的力量勞工沒有了團結前的意識一味追求自由解釋團體形同一盤散沙在不斷的裂解破碎化政府再多的工會安全保障對於工會組織的長遠發展及提升來說將是必帶的以上報告進行主好謝謝我們謝謝吳理事長那我再介紹"},{"start":2850.095,"end":2867.482,"text":"來賓 高雄市獨立總工會理事長王慶紅好 歡迎 歡迎好那繼續我們請陳偉雲台南市交易產業工會理事長花言"},{"start":2879.81,"end":2907.559,"text":"好主席各位委員還有各位在場的先進大家早安大家好我是台南市教育產業工會的理事長陳偉雲陳老師那今天來參加工會法修法以及廠廠工會設立權益的這個制度的公聽會那有這個機會來跟大家報告一下教師組工會以及教師成立工會之後在教育現場上會遇到的一些問題跟現狀所以我們希望說也讓各位委員聽聽看我們的一些困境然後在這次修法上也有辦法把"},{"start":2908.319,"end":2930.746,"text":"跟教師工會有關的一些法條也列進去那以下是我的報告那因為時間有限所以我想先講結論針對這次工會法的修法我們認為以現行的工會法對於老師結社自由跟團結權這個部分其實有很多的限制那我們認為在這個部分已經違反了國際勞工組織公約的一個第87條以及第89條的公約精神"},{"start":2931.286,"end":2953.536,"text":"影響到老師的一些團結權以及結社自由的一些權利所以我們認為在這次的修法在教師公會裡監事跟幹部應該要有一個合理合法的一個會務價因此我們很建議希望能夠新增在現行的法令當中能夠新增第36條之一也就是把老師的會務價的部分可以落在裡面然後落實公會價會務公價跟團結權的部分讓勞資雙方可以有一個和諧的關係"},{"start":2959.946,"end":2987.669,"text":"那以下我就跟大家報告一下在教師工會的惠物價這個部分在運作上可能會有什麼樣的問題我們知道工會在一百年成立之後修法之後對不起老師的部分可以依工會法第四條主工會在勞工的部分就可以依照他們相關權益組織跟加入工會那老師也在一百年之後開始成立了工會所以在一百年之後各縣是陸陸續續成立了產業工會跟職業工會因此老師在加入工會這件事情上"},{"start":2988.129,"end":2996.598,"text":"在所有老師的觀念裡面是已經都可以充分的理解只是說在成立工會之後還是會面臨到很多現實運作上的一些困難"},{"start":2998.717,"end":3024.02,"text":"那在第六條裡面的確有寫到老師的工會的類型在老師的部分因為受限於當時候法令的一些限制以及種種的關係所以老師只能組的是產業工會以及職業工會也就是說我們在處理的是整個權限或者是權勢的一些問題也就是不能只我們沒有在學校裡面成立所謂的企業工會因此我們現在的產業工會跟職業工會都是權勢性或權限性的"},{"start":3025.56,"end":3044.057,"text":"那以職業工會以工會來講我們知道工會法只要30個人就可以有成立工會那在各縣市裡面的工會裡面我會發現如果以台灣整個22個縣市來看公立學校只看公立學校就會發現我們的專案老師是少著1000人以下"},{"start":3044.798,"end":3066.136,"text":"多的話可能到一萬一千人到一萬人以上換句話說每個工會教室工會的會員人數其實是非常非常的多的可能幾百人到上萬人但是這樣子的一個工會的一個規模卻沒有辦法有一個合理合法的會務價因此我們認為在這一次的修法裡面必須把這個老師的會務價合理合法的"},{"start":3066.676,"end":3084.334,"text":"列進去那我們都知道其實現在以我們台南市來講好了我們在101年就已經跟教育局簽訂了所謂的團體協約可是這個團體協約卻因為當時市府的關係一直躺在市府裡面那這幾年來我們跟學校的做法都是用協商的"},{"start":3084.554,"end":3103.503,"text":"可是協商之後卻可能受限於教育主管機關教育局或者是某些特定的一些名代還會把校長叫到議會去做質詢問說為什麼可以有會務架凸顯這個會務架在縣市政府在運作上可能多少會遇到一些困難因此我們很希望在這次的修法裡面可以明定把教師公會裡監視的會務架"},{"start":3105.504,"end":3120.087,"text":"明定在條文裡面因此我們強烈建議說能夠在這次的修法裡面增列了第36條之一那至於細節部分因為這個已經陳列在大家的手冊那個資料上面所以我們就不再一一的追溯以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳理事長那繼續我們請陳昭之6號委員歡迎"},{"start":3138.251,"end":3153.357,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛勞動部也是引用這個112年的憲判制第7號判決那我也要引用這一個判決只是好像看起來不同的角度大家有各自解讀那這個判決當初做出了公會法實行細則第二條第一項跟第二項"},{"start":3157.438,"end":3179.504,"text":"是違憲的那憲法法庭雖然他只說違反的是這個法律保留原則他避開了他迴避了這個違反比例原則這個部分但這個部分我認為是憲法法庭自己要去承擔的但是我必須要說當我看到這一次行政院送工會法第六條之一的修正草案到立法院來我覺得我等一下可以說為什麼我覺得很荒唐"},{"start":3182.825,"end":3197.268,"text":"那這個政府還重視還正視勞工的人權嗎那在這個憲法法庭判決當中所附上的監察院國家人權委員會的建立報告清楚的寫著勞動部的工會法實行細則對於廠廠工會的要求包括獨立的人事預算跟會計等要件與國際勞工組織第87號第98號公約保障勞工專有的這個結社自由的權利是不符合的"},{"start":3212.811,"end":3219.379,"text":"而且會造成勞工受到政府或雇主不當的限制很遺憾結果這一次行政院修法還是提出一個違背國家人權委員會鑑識報告的結果這就是我為什麼說我看到這個版本實在覺得是荒唐荒謬的那另外在憲法法庭判決當中"},{"start":3232.495,"end":3248.267,"text":"有許多大法官其實對於這個最後做出的這樣的判決他沒有處理所謂的這個違反比例原則的部分還是有大法官提出不同的意見那行政院級勞動部應該要請你們是不是要仔細去讀一下其中蔡總統大法官的不同意見書"},{"start":3249.708,"end":3264.64,"text":"蔡大法官他對於這個勞動部要求廠廠工會要有獨立的人事預算跟會計這個要件等等他認為是違反比例原則的他提到很多理由有很具體的理由例如勞動部所做的限制要件在手段跟目的上"},{"start":3265.501,"end":3269.984,"text":"有不當的關聯 廠長工會不應該被綁在公司的組織架構上那麼廠長所具備的這個獨立性 應該具備的獨立性跟廠長企業公會團體協商權 正義權這個漸漸的落實是無關的那他也提出其實國外的這個立法的例子例如日本 鄰近的日本他們對於工會組成的條件是相當寬鬆的"},{"start":3289.175,"end":3306.169,"text":"但是並沒有發生並沒有發生牢牢相爭的問題所以蔡大法官認為行政機關不應該對廠廠企業工會的這個成立額外增加技術性的限制這是不對的那蔡大法官也預判預測到如果立法機關未來直接"},{"start":3306.869,"end":3321.285,"text":"把施行記者裡面的相關這個規定搬到母法施行記者搬到母法上去那會有兩個效應第一個就是背離公衛法在2000年制定的修法的這個意旨第二個會嚴重打壓公衛制度在我國的發展"},{"start":3322.126,"end":3337.555,"text":"那結果行政院竟然就這樣做了把這個有疑慮的條文直接從施行記者搬到這個母法去交差了事難道要立法院要變成這個蔡大法官口中所謂的不能夠認清規定危害公會獨立性的立法機關嗎所以我呼籲行政院要懸崖勒馬把這個離譜的這個修法草案撤回去否則我覺得台灣的勞工人權現在已經很多勞權的問題有爭議了那再一次會把勞工的人權再次被政府糟蹋了好謝謝"},{"start":3356.114,"end":3373.069,"text":"謝謝,謝謝趙志偉那我們介紹國立台北大學法律學院院長侯越宏院長好,歡迎歡迎那我們再介紹全國教育產業總工會理事長林碩傑歡迎歡迎"},{"start":3382.834,"end":3402.895,"text":"來接續接著我們請中鋼股民有限公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟常務理事主席各位委員各位學者專家各位先生各位女士大家早安大家好"},{"start":3403.888,"end":3425.962,"text":"我是中央公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟今天很榮幸來參加這個工會法修法及長壤工會的設立的權益制度來公聽會工會法第一條為促進勞工團結提升勞工地位及改善勞工生活就制定了本法但立法的宗旨就在促進勞工的團結"},{"start":3427.217,"end":3443.554,"text":"勞工集結30人就可以任意的結社,將導致勞犬的分散而弱化。訪談勞工團結與提升勞工的地位。公衛組織非一般的人民團體,它是有公衛法、團體協議法、勞資正義處理法等集體勞動法賦予的特定權利的特定團體。"},{"start":3449.921,"end":3463.559,"text":"那新工會法自民國一百年上入後互數企業工會以少數的群眾團體在小型工會的出現的模式如果存在多年仍是維持創會的規格"},{"start":3465.561,"end":3482.617,"text":"甚至人數有略減即表示耕耘多年以後人無法獲得勞工的認同這樣的工會能享受被法律保障與權利能得享有與多數勞工團結合一的工會"},{"start":3483.397,"end":3507.268,"text":"有這個貧企貧弱的一個權利這樣不禁讓我們的勞動法令勞工團結還是意圖消滅我們的團結之勞工組織這個有待商議根據目前工會組織的亂象我大概有提出三個問題點那公務委員及各位與會學者慘左右第一個問題點就是從業人員"},{"start":3510.462,"end":3526.295,"text":"個人角度來看如果要加入哪個企業公會才會有保障公務法第7條依前條第一項第一款組織是企業公會其勞工應加入公會這勢必是要加入公會但複數公會來講我們的"},{"start":3529.739,"end":3553.246,"text":"所有的組織如果A集團有嘉義秉丁等四個交叉持股互控的一個存儲關係四家公司排列組合以後又有多少的關係企業公會那每家公會都有協商權與爭議權那麼原始最大規模的公會還有少數不滿的主流自備另起爐灶"},{"start":3554.488,"end":3579.42,"text":"那三思人就可以成立一個企業工會那豈不弱化了原本最大規模的工會這就是現在工會的亂象的實況那企業勞工也面臨到底要加入哪個工會哪個工會以後又要交多筆的工會的一個會會那如果又創立許多新的廠長工會更加劇的問題的惡化"},{"start":3582.421,"end":3611.553,"text":"那問題二就是小型工會坐地喊價要求協商大型工會之合理性情何以堪這個小型工會就是壓著他有協商權那跟我們資方去爭取勞工的權益那大型工會就會被他壓著沒辦法去主張自己的權益而有一些疑問點的時候資方又沒有辦法答應那第三點不良人士寄予會務工價要求雇主"},{"start":3612.213,"end":3636.497,"text":"中立義務之濫送公會法46條賦予企業公會理事長的班日或全日其他理事每月有50小時的一個會務假如果這樣的話將近有12席的理監事那三分之一的工作日不用提供勞務這樣是否會造成公司營運成本的增加我在這邊不好意思 報告完畢"},{"start":3644.683,"end":3671.133,"text":"那個我在這邊強調 護宿公會的增加是讓我們的團結群的弱化一家公司有護宿公會 而且他是沒有會員沒有成長的情況下 如何去經營這個公會他們在會務價的上面 就是為了覬覦這個會務價而產生了一些的不法的事故出現 所以我是覺得"},{"start":3672.102,"end":3677.504,"text":"在複數工會的團結權方面我們是有待商議以上報告 謝謝謝謝楊常務理事我再報告一下就是我們講四分鐘會響鈴響鈴之後可以再講一分鐘一分鐘後就會關麥克風我們就照這樣亂來 接續我們請台灣高等教育產業工會研究員陳柏謙 歡迎"},{"start":3705.544,"end":3729.36,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進我是台灣高雄教育財源公會的研究員陳柏謙接下來因為我寫了講稿可能就會照這個講稿來闡述我今天的相關論點我想要講的是我們今天之所以在這邊討論公會法修法其實大家都蠻清楚的起因就是112年憲法法庭第七號的判決這個判決它認定公會法適應細則裡面對常常公會的一個定義規範"},{"start":3730.898,"end":3736.571,"text":"的一個相關限制違反了法律保留原則那憲法法庭之所以有這個判決呢要再回到是"},{"start":3737.355,"end":3763.5,"text":"追溯到這個2014年到2017年那有若干的這個泛國工藝世界員工他試圖依據工會法成立廠廠工會的時候可是呢在那個時間點遭到中央主管機關沉積就是勞動部這個沉積的撤銷他地方主管地方機關給的這個所謂的成立的核准那事實上我們我覺得我們比較需要回顧跟確認的是齁其實在民國99年工會法修法之前不管是工會法還是工會法施行系則對廠廠工會是沒有定義跟規範的"},{"start":3764.58,"end":3780.337,"text":"那有趣的是其實在99年公民法修法後勞動部在100年和103年分別用適應細則的方式兩度限縮了常常工會成立的條件但重點的是其實我們回去看民國99年公民法修法的時候啊對常常工會有關的立法修法的這個理由說明"},{"start":3781.545,"end":3809.226,"text":"當中是這樣白紙黑字寫的現行以廠長為組織的工會仍得維持歸納為企業工會換句話說雖然沒有直接講明但當時候的立法考量並沒有 我再講一次並沒有意圖更動或進一步限縮廠長工會的組成與條件所以換句話說在100年跟103年勞動部兩次用信息的限縮這其實完全來自於行政機關的一個主觀的意願而非當時候的一個立法議職曾經討論過的部分"},{"start":3811.067,"end":3825.599,"text":"但是勞工部我這邊講勞工部在100年跟103年分別大幅度修正實行細則連續兩次以最大限度限縮勞工得以組成倡議公會的一個空間跟權力然後就是112年憲法第7號判決的這個身體員工會因為成立核准遭到勞工部"},{"start":3826.3,"end":3851.461,"text":"以這個需要嚴格線索條件而撤銷的這樣一個爭議那也就是因為這個112年憲法法庭認定私營系的規範常常工會的這樣的一個定義規範違反法律保留原則所以我們今天才會在這邊所以勞動部才會提出了所謂的把本來在私營系的部分修到工會法裡面那我覺得比較讓人家啼笑皆非的是勞動部在修法說明裡面表示就是在他送出去的書面說明包括剛剛勞動部的官員在發言"},{"start":3853.923,"end":3875.223,"text":"裡面都一樣以這個作為一個所謂的主要理由那這個論證是這樣說明的他說為了避免在同一個企業下規模小規模工會過多造成碎裂化並這個削弱團結協商的力量所以呢他訂定了這一個相關的比較嚴格對這樣工會的這樣的一個成立做了一個很嚴格的一個線索"},{"start":3877.188,"end":3895.631,"text":"換句話說在勞動部的這個立法說明裡面呢彷彿他去做這個限縮是為了勞工好是為了讓勞工的團結權可以獲得更大的實施但實際上事實上是這樣子嗎我們其實都心知肚明這間限縮常常工會的理由呢包括在2014年陸續撤銷的常常工會的核准呢其實還是來自於原來大型犯國"},{"start":3896.552,"end":3915.98,"text":"公會的這樣的一個壓力至於有沒有來自於更高行政部門的壓力我們無從得知啊事實上能否實質上強化勞工團結的協商力量我強調一次在彼者將近二十在就是他本人將近二十年的公會工作經驗來看從來都不是勞動部修法或政策考量的一個重點從來都不是我再講一次"},{"start":3917.396,"end":3943.293,"text":"我講一個發生在60年前的歷史故事1964年 台塑公司在宜蘭東山投資成立了一間叫東山電視廠股份有限公司當時候的員工 這很久很久以前 還在戒嚴時期自發成立了籌組的廠廠工會台塑公司在恐嚇發起人並帶頭解僱了這個組織工人的幹部之後直接解散了這家公司 然後把他併入了台塑公司然後以這個為理由 主張員工不得成立廠廠工會"},{"start":3944.173,"end":3968.271,"text":"同一個時間資方在可以控制員工成立的台塑公會之後呢要求電視廠的員工要加入公會原來資方的這個公會然後以分會的方式獨立運作事實上其實依當時候的法律規定即便東山電視廠被併入了台塑公司它還是一樣可以成立一場工會但非常非常有趣的是在網友現在台塑公司的要求按要求底下"},{"start":3969.472,"end":3992.899,"text":"東山電視廠連廠廠工會都不能夠成立它只能夠用分會的方式成立在依附在資方控制的黃色工會底下的分會方式這個例子我真的要講的是說在歷史上絕大部分時刻政府主管機關對工會籌組的一個範圍跟這個條件的解釋跟立場一向都和促進勞工實質團結獨立結社有效行使勞動三權沒有任何關聯甚至是相反的"},{"start":3993.598,"end":4016.643,"text":"好 所以這次修法的考量 背後的這樣的考量我認為一樣是同樣的基於同樣的道理啦那其實剛剛已經有人講這個國家安全委員會在111年的建立報告裡面其實就已經講得很清楚了如果依照目前現在的一個線索條件裡面呢等於把能不能成立廠長工會的所有的主導權直接交由之方好 那難道這不才是弱化勞工團結的一個"},{"start":4017.438,"end":4043.386,"text":"跟這個團結權跟協商權的一個最重要最重要最重要的影響嗎好最後我花一點時間講我想強調是勞動部今天如果要對常常工會做出最大限度限縮的修法呢真的不要再拿所謂考量到勞工團結和協商權作為遮羞布大家都很清楚這不是背後真正的理由那我很希望勞動部等一下可以回應修法以後還會有多少常常工會可以成立的可能性跟空間有或沒有我認為是沒有的如果答案是否定的"},{"start":4043.806,"end":4060.321,"text":"那我直接建議勞動部乾脆一點直接在修法裡面就把這個常常工會或甚至我們在講企業工會本身就在弱化因為他就是把員工分在一個企業裡面那如果照勞動部的理解裡面是不是連企業工會都要把它修正都要把它撤銷掉呢好 我的發言到此結束 謝謝謝謝 謝謝陳教授那接下來我們請陳慶輝委員歡迎"},{"start":4075.622,"end":4104.129,"text":"主席各位官員各位委員還有今天的學者專家以及我們許許多公會的代表大家早安我是陳勤惠委員但我也只是一個婦產科醫師但我今天會在這邊發言是因為想協助我們廠廠的勞工們發聲不是因為我代表什麼大財團大的營業事業也不是主管法令可以施行的行政官員不過我的職責很簡單因為許多人來跟我陳情就是替民意來做發聲所以我站在基層的"},{"start":4105.589,"end":4122.18,"text":"廠長勞工立場來講一個很簡單但是很關鍵的事那就是希望基層的勞工要有團結的自由組工會的權利不要再被無理的法條卡住這次勞動部提出了工會法的修法草案事實上呢這個是把一個高度爭議的法律內容"},{"start":4122.7,"end":4146.817,"text":"因為這是原本就違憲違反國際勞工公約的行政規定再從施行細則升級到正式法律這不是修法是把毒藥變成一個處方簽這個就是法律的修惡啊所以我說這個工會法施行細則第二條第一項這個惡法它規定要成立廠廠工會就必須符合三個條件人事獨立 預算獨立 會計獨立講白話一點這個單位"},{"start":4150.72,"end":4175.461,"text":"可以自己來決定誰來誰走自己編預算還要設帳記帳計算盈虧但是想大的盈利事業底下的基層廠廠怎麼可能可以符合以上這些規定所以我是想問說台灣有哪一些工廠哪一些基層單位有這種權限這不是在限制我們工會成立而是在設定讓大家連這個門基本的進入門檻都沒有"},{"start":4179.164,"end":4203.179,"text":"所以回想起之前這個華航修護廠或者是漢翔航空沙路廠他們的勞工行使自己的權力組成工會但就是因為不符合人事獨立 預算獨立還有會計獨立這三個條件被勞動部撤銷講明白一點 他們就是一群在第一線非常辛苦努力工作的基層勞工想要團結 想要保護自己"},{"start":4205.02,"end":4218.398,"text":"可是換來的呢卻是被政府蓋章說不合法勞動部來當我們基層勞工勞權的兇手這個早就有以前這些前科了所以憲法法庭判決這條違反法律保留原則要在兩年內廢止"},{"start":4222.703,"end":4245.671,"text":"結果我們勞動部不但沒有費還變本加厲要直接把它寫進工會法第六條之一這根本就是打著修法的名義繼續來打壓勞工所以我是想問我們基層勞工想組工會是破壞公共秩序嗎是威脅到國家安全嗎還是侵犯了誰的自由嗎如果都不是為什麼要設這麼多不合理的門檻這麼做很明顯剛剛也有學者講到了不只是違反聯合國兩公約"},{"start":4252.333,"end":4275.163,"text":"也違反了ILO第87號第98號的公約更現實的是根據統計我們現在台灣的工會組織率在下降中從8%繼續往下掉所以勞動部早就應該要檢討如何讓勞工更有組織的力量結果我們卻是反其道而行把這條路堵得更死"},{"start":4275.823,"end":4291.143,"text":"這也難怪基層勞工在分享一個比喻這不是幫助勞工是把勞工的嘴巴捆起來還說是幫他們戴口罩對比即將到來的五一勞動節真的是讓人感到相當的悲哀各位我們現在知道"},{"start":4291.704,"end":4312.806,"text":"許許多多各行各業勞動條件非常的不容易工時長壓力大過勞的問題嚴重當然包括我們基層的醫護人員大家想要有個公會做後盾是天經地義的事情而民主法治的政府最應該做的事情不是幫大家設門檻設障礙是把這些不合理的制度來拆掉所以"},{"start":4313.326,"end":4324.094,"text":"今天最後就是想懇請各位官員委員關心勞工的朋友千萬不要把這條二法變成正式的法條這不是單純的技術問題這是攸關每一個基層勞工的團結權發聲權還有生存權謝謝大家"},{"start":4361.363,"end":4389.484,"text":"主席還有我們各位官員各位委員各位與會的學者專家們以及列席的同仁以及我們這些記者們大家早今天我們在討論這個議題就是要勞動部要修法這個拱惠法的部分大家很清楚那剛剛我們幾位的代表都講到團結當然各自有正反兩面的一個看法那在這邊我要講"},{"start":4391.365,"end":4416.946,"text":"其實這個修法就是針對憲法法庭說它違憲而造成違背保留原則所以在這個判決上做出這樣一個判決但是大家想一下最高行政法院為什麼每次的判決都是正確的這是第一個當然憲法法庭的一個判決是因為它違反它是因為在施行細則裡面是命令"},{"start":4418.24,"end":4433.577,"text":"而不是法令所以這次勞動部修法把它提升到要在工會法裡面正式納入成為那個法令那我要講大家都在講廠廠工會的成立在一家企業裡面如果再去成立廠廠工會你認為是對的嗎"},{"start":4436.656,"end":4463.254,"text":"如果這一家企業沒有成立工會而去成立廠廠工會那是保障我們人民的那個結社自由是對的但是在一家單一企業裡面已經有工會了工會裡面你每個會員每個勞工都是可以參加工會的是有會籍的然後呢你參加工會你在各個地方都可以有結社的自由可以表達你的意願"},{"start":4465.265,"end":4471.022,"text":"絕對沒有問題但是工會就是我們政治的小小板工會都是一樣透過選舉"},{"start":4473.168,"end":4498.963,"text":"透過選舉來選出工會的幹部今天這個少數的工會也就是我們在講的富庶工會他就是因為選舉失誤所以他要成立另一家工會來做一個那個權力的鬥爭這個我們在現在台灣看得很清楚而且也讓資方看到你工會的不團結我們所謂的勞工三權啊協商團結正義"},{"start":4502.25,"end":4526.428,"text":"在團結前你就被破壞掉了互輸公衛的這個成立就是破壞團結權所以在這邊我來舉個例台灣今天的我們是一個民主自由的國家政黨林立今天一個政黨成立他選舉總統選舉市長他如果選輸他再去成立說我要畫哪個區域再來再做一次選舉是這樣嗎不是這樣欸"},{"start":4529.915,"end":4540.327,"text":"包括我們的委員今天主席我們是委員我們的委員是主席今天在委員區的選舉對手跟你競爭你有哪些區塊的選舉你是贏的今天但是在幾個鄉鎮裡面比如說有15個鄉鎮委員你贏了8個鄉鎮9個鄉鎮"},{"start":4549.997,"end":4576.025,"text":"六個鄉鎮選票未必贏他但是那個候選人他又去中選的時候以後要畫這個區域為選舉區域我要再來選一次這是對的嗎這絕對不對今天的互數公會少數公會就是這種現在的一個我們看得很清楚他的那個目標就是這個樣子所以成立少數公會美其言在爭取勞工的權益我舉例說包括現在的南山那個人壽"},{"start":4580.831,"end":4608.57,"text":"他南山企業工會有3600的員工然後在嘉義有一個小的那個南山工會現在資方啊 尹董事長就不跟大工會來談就去跟小工會談那你這樣是代表我們多數勞工的權益嗎也不對包括在我們國公營事業裡面現在的中華電信已經民營化了但是我們中華電信呢它本來是一家最大的企業工會"},{"start":4610.438,"end":4615.537,"text":"但是現在因為富士公會的誠意弱化中華電信的整個團結力量"},{"start":4617.897,"end":4644.935,"text":"這個我們都看得很清楚所以我現在要講的就是說今天這個法案我們的討論把它要修如為公會法我要請大家團結在一起而不是弱化勞工的那個團結力量把它弱化掉我講的是實際面我不講剛剛大家都在講我們針對公會法的修正怎麼樣我講的是實際面各位包括我們所有在座的學者專家都非常清楚"},{"start":4646.216,"end":4665.314,"text":"但在這個部分我要提出來就是說勞動部他也是長期以來在這個廠長工會規定的目的是要避免工會的一個分裂而且他長期的在那個要提升工會的組織力是讓沒有組成工會的這個"},{"start":4668.513,"end":4685.695,"text":"沒有讓組成工會的企業成立新的工會來保障勞工的權益所以這次的修法是符合法律的保留原則並明確廠長工會的規定以保障勞工的團結希望各界"},{"start":4686.676,"end":4713.591,"text":"真的是要這樣來看待這個法令的修正而不是為了少數的一個權益在那邊爭取你爭權奪利的一個目標以上我站在台灣石油公會的立場明確的要來跟大家做說明謝謝謝謝陳理事長那接續我們請台灣鐵路企業工會理事長童世哲發言"},{"start":4724.512,"end":4734.826,"text":"主席還有各位官員還有專家學者大家好我今天代表台灣體育企業公會來針對今天三個議題我們來做一個我們的論述這邊我們針對第一個議題我們來做一個論述就是"},{"start":4740.905,"end":4758.012,"text":"其實我們在行政院的這一個版本我們可以看到其實以台鐵工會的立場我們是支持有限制的設立全面開放廠廠工會可能會導致過於分散我們就以台鐵為例來講好了如果是以各個車站"},{"start":4760.272,"end":4784.557,"text":"成立所謂的獨立工會的話可能會出現數十個小型的工會各自提出不同的需求那這個會剝削台鐵企業工會作為整體代表的一個地位那如果有條件的前提狀況下來做一個成立的話可以平衡地方勞工的需求跟企業級層面的協商力量"},{"start":4785.666,"end":4809.114,"text":"那如果沒有限制的話台鐵我們以地區的區域性來說如果你以台北的員工來講他單就一個加班的議題在另外一個如果以花蓮的地區來講兩個不同地區他們的需求是不同的這樣子會導致企業工會很難以"},{"start":4811.535,"end":4832.35,"text":"統籌他們的訴求那如果有限制的話企業公會的同意可以去成立的話可以確保廠商公會訴求跟企業公會的協商方向是統一的在這個結論的話第一個議題我們做結論台鐵企業公會會支持有前提跟有條件限制的設立那我們針對第二個議題來第二個議題"},{"start":4842.17,"end":4860.858,"text":"修法廠長公會的定義主要是要納入這個母法取代原有模糊的焦點規定台鐵企業公會認定這個方向是在保障勞工結社自由也避免法律漏洞導致權益的濫用那如果修法為"},{"start":4862.725,"end":4890.31,"text":"明確規範廠廠工會部分員工可能濫用結社權設行小型的工會然後規避企業工會團體協商的機制我們做一個那個立案來說如果某廠廠員工不滿企業工會談判結果自行組工會與資方私下協商可能會損害到其他員工的權益"},{"start":4894.608,"end":4920.484,"text":"那所謂到企業的權益之後企業工會長期代表全體勞工與資方談判的地位應該受法律的保障那第二個議題的結論是我們台鐵工會支持行政院的版本也建立廠長工會去設立企業工會的同意確保企業工會勞權的一致性那最後"},{"start":4921.525,"end":4930.981,"text":"台鐵這邊的總結台鐵7月公開支持行政院版本第六條之一的修正草案在保障結社自由的同時透過明確"},{"start":4932.98,"end":4948.705,"text":"規範避免勞工的力度過於分上符合ILO公約及憲法法庭的意旨然而確保企業公會的團體勞動協商權不受影響那建議修法增訂廠長公會設立虛經企業公會的同意及規定"},{"start":4952.226,"end":4979.819,"text":"這不只能兼顧地方需求也能維護台鐵勞工整體團結談判利益避免實際運作中出現碎片化或資方分化的風險這樣的立場既尊重勞工的權益也符合所有企業工會長期以來作為勞資協商核心的角色直投工會深入討論與採納以上台鐵的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4985.266,"end":4989.608,"text":"謝謝 謝謝童理事長那繼續我們請麥一貞議員發言謝謝主席 親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":5007.441,"end":5025.57,"text":"今天很感谢大家白忙之中一起来讨论就工会法的第六条之一修法的议题提供以下的几个建议首先我们针对行政院版本草案子是否违法"},{"start":5026.61,"end":5030.551,"text":"結社自由與團結權我們必須回到憲法與國際人權法的基本原則根據國際勞工組織第87號與第98號的公約工人應有自由成立及加入自己選擇的工會之權利不得受任意限制我們我國112年的"},{"start":5055.778,"end":5081.808,"text":"宪判第七号判决明确指出过去工会法实行细则第二条第一二项的要求常常必须具有独立人士议算会计等要件并未经法律明确的收权及对结社自由构成重大的限制"},{"start":5083.048,"end":5086.531,"text":"違法憲法第23條法律保留的原則因此宣告違法並在2025年5月19號失效然而行政院版本修法仍繼續始終以組織結構限制勞工組織權的思維無異於章魚違憲的內容"},{"start":5109.585,"end":5126.703,"text":"由命令升格為法例恐章引發新一輪的違憲的爭議我們不能忽略此列限制早已造成時機的侵害以華航修護廠公案為例"},{"start":5129.426,"end":5147.185,"text":"該工會早於2015年經桃園縣政府核准成立卻遭企業總工會以不屈獨立預算與會計由提出申願經兩度的撤銷 三次的重審"},{"start":5148.906,"end":5158.828,"text":"長達八年人未能安穩存在最終透過憲法輸送才確認原規定違憲根據勞動部的資料自2014年在2021年的期間企業工會成立案件中被勞動主管機構撤回或撤銷比例高達28.6其中數位理由與不符獨立要件的有關"},{"start":5178.372,"end":5207.572,"text":"這個說明在現行的制度下勞工組織工會常因應組織設計而卡死形同由雇主決定你能不能有工會再談到是否限制同一個工會只能有一個廠工會以高科技產業為例例如我們台積電或台中中油台灣中油其中同事就跨各縣市跨科技管理"},{"start":5209.033,"end":5223.228,"text":"倉儲物流等不同的部門工作條件與勞資關係不同如果限制只有三個工會第一導致部分的廠工缺雜有效的代表也使工會內部"},{"start":5225.33,"end":5234.736,"text":"過於龐大無法稀釋反映到個別權利根據日本的經驗七月部一場的一個工會來通過聯合協議會協商統合勞方意見"},{"start":5240.78,"end":5261.32,"text":"不仅未达成的混乱反而强化了工会功能与工人参与率反观台湾2022年度全体劳工工会参与率剩余7.4%低于远低于OECD的国家平均16.4%制度"},{"start":5264.042,"end":5282.175,"text":"保障真是重要原因之一最后我们应重视国家人权委员会针对本案所提出的鉴定意见不得章制度设计合法性乍临于宪法保障"},{"start":5283.416,"end":5308.893,"text":"結設自由與勞工自主性因此本次修法因明定廠廠定義與勞工實際工作場所為核心不應再強調會計或預算的制度放寬縣市或不同的事業單位成立工會限制建議多層次工會協助架構促進勞資對話與工會自治"},{"start":5312.795,"end":5327.602,"text":"主席們還有我們各位專家還有我們政府希望這一次的修我們的修法會落實關於我們的違法的本質真正落實讓勞工有自主"},{"start":5329.123,"end":5344.365,"text":"組織有力的代表有效的協商才能保障勞工資方我們共同為我們台灣的經濟發展也讓大家有保障的工作有求助的管道以上謝謝"},{"start":5348.685,"end":5363.898,"text":"謝謝麥一貞委員 講得很好我們介紹貴賓 弘道法律事務所主持律師 蔡志揚我們接續請中華郵政公會台北分會理事長 陳育吟發言"},{"start":5385.251,"end":5399.898,"text":"主席 我們各位長官還有各位與會的先進大家早安我是中華郵政公會台北分會的理事長今天代表中華郵政公會來出席這個公聽會主要來表達一下我們中華郵政公會對這個議題的看法"},{"start":5402.819,"end":5423.588,"text":"有關於廠廠工會的設立本會的組織型態在目前的組織運作下我們本身在每個縣市都有一個分會的成立但是我們的分會成立主要還是依照以中華人證工會為企業工會的主體在運行所以說整個運作方面來看的話"},{"start":5424.85,"end":5440.933,"text":"基本上是不存在有勞工所謂的福利差別待遇的存在那麼我想依我們這個剛剛我聽這個鐵路工會的同理事長在說明同樣我們是交通部的事業單位所屬的工會"},{"start":5442.014,"end":5458.894,"text":"那它的組織形態跟我們或許會有所差別但我們現在所要強調就是說常常工會的設立假設入在這個法律裡面一個正式的行文形容劇文的條例的時候是不是會反而容易造成說我們工會員工"},{"start":5460.276,"end":5474.903,"text":"工會的分裂而造成員工的不團結這個現象來產生因為目前就我們中華郵政工會其實另外一個小工會叫做台灣郵政產業工會那麼它是在台南市政府這邊設立成立的"},{"start":5476.164,"end":5503.017,"text":"那麼他這個工會的人數幾百個人大概不到兩百個人左右但是喜歡以小搏大那我想爭取福利跟爭取權益都是工會的成員所主要要來做進行的一個責任跟他的工作但是有時候兩方意見分歧不同目標的時候反而讓事業單位造成一個無所適從甚至忽視視而不見"},{"start":5504.738,"end":5520.769,"text":"如果說把公衛的組織形態再分裂出去的話,我想對於以後勞權的爭議處理,還有權益的爭取,會非常的不好做,也可能公平性上也會有一個比較不足的地方。"},{"start":5521.877,"end":5539.915,"text":"假設我今天全國22個分會通通申請成為法人的時候那麼我們中華郵政公會這個企業公會主體有可能啦會瓦解掉為什麼因為每個人都有法人的智慧地位的時候他可以個別跟事業單位來做談判那麼相形之下事業單位"},{"start":5541.096,"end":5561.797,"text":"他對於這個本來是只針對一個工會來做一個協商那麼現在針對各全省22個單位來做協商的時候哪一個是對他有利哪一個對他不利我想很容易來判別那麼我們主商工會單一體是主要是對於會員的照顧比較直接的一個"},{"start":5562.958,"end":5581.443,"text":"一個利益啦如果說工會分開不同的那個組織型態來運作的話有可能因為個人的利益或者是一些不同區域的這個型態而來做個別的運作的時候"},{"start":5581.923,"end":5584.086,"text":"反而會削弱工會對事業單位的一個影響力跟團結的展現那是不是讓事業單位有這個可以從裡面去做一個個別分化的手段來進行也不可能"},{"start":5596.8,"end":5621.234,"text":"所以我們是希望能夠慎重的來考慮這個廠廠工會的這個制定能夠慎重讓我們所有的這個所有全體的勞工都能夠來享有應該有的福利跟權益而不要因為我們的這個工會的設立來造成反而是勞工的權益跟福利的一個損失跟喪失以上是中華政公會的表示 謝謝"},{"start":5624.414,"end":5650.379,"text":"好 謝謝陳理事長那接續我們請台灣電力產業工會理事長歐子明發言主席 各位委員 各位先生女士大家好我是台灣電力產業工會理事長歐子明"},{"start":5651.921,"end":5679.233,"text":"今天很榮幸受邀來參加我們立法院的公聽會有幾點意見來做發表第一點就是說依據監察院國家人權委員會有提到他出的鑑定意見書有提到就是說在各項國際公約裡面都有提到人民有機會接受的自由我們公會法第六條裡面提到就是說常常企業公會形態他有所謂的事業單位的企業公會還有所謂的常常的企業公會"},{"start":5681.708,"end":5703.507,"text":"這樣子的話就是說對於企業這兩個字的定義是採取相對廣義且具有一定彈性的解釋但是到了說工會法是因細則第二條他對於廠廠工會卻使用獨立人士預算會計等嚴苛條件來加以做限制這不僅是限縮勞工解釋的自由更是弱化廠廠工會設置的目的及破壞"},{"start":5705.109,"end":5716.031,"text":"廠廠工會這個型態的任務與功能另外就是說組織工會他的本意就是說要讓勞方的權限能夠跟資方的權限能夠比較對等那現在你如果說"},{"start":5717.719,"end":5743.974,"text":"能夠要用獨立人士跟預算會計來對廠長企業工會來做限制的話那就會造成說資方能夠去調整他的組織讓你變成沒有獨立人士跟獨立會計等於說很容易就能夠背革你廠長企業工會的成立那等於說變成你的勞工的工會的成立是控制在資方的手上這個對我們來說這個是完全不合理再來就是第二點"},{"start":5745.954,"end":5770.576,"text":"廠長工會的分身啦 我知道啦 就像剛剛有一些先進有提到就是說有一些公司他有所謂的分會的制度嘛但是就是說這些分會是以工會自治的理由來設立但是事前並沒有經過主管機關的審核事後也沒有辦法監督那這些分會的工會頭有可能就是因為他沒有法源依據來做監督嘛等於說他可以無限制的連任"},{"start":5771.317,"end":5782.212,"text":"那這樣子的話在無法監督的狀況底下就有可能會有一些違法亂紀的形式產生而且他長期在地方的勢力做大的話甚至連值班都拿他無可奈何"},{"start":5782.881,"end":5811.841,"text":"那這樣子的話就會變成說大工會底下他們可以自己用工會自治的理由去設立分會結果卻反手來限制廠廠企業工會的設立這怎麼會合理要嘛就是說你自己要讓廠廠企業工會能夠讓它法制化那麼就是說讓你的分會也能夠用廠廠企業工會的模式能夠來成立這樣子才有比較符合現行的規範而且你這樣子才能夠有法源依據來跟他做監督"},{"start":5814.813,"end":5821.729,"text":"那第三點就是說這次廠產公會的修法勞動部不要只當大型企業公會的遮羞部應該試圖"},{"start":5824.244,"end":5845.63,"text":"要修一個能夠符合勞工的法令也不要說表面主張團結實際上是在限制基層勞工的法令那團結不能夠只是說寒寒口號沒有實際作為因為實際上按照過往案例出來登高一呼說要團結的其實常常都是有話語權但是不願意傾聽基層聲音並務實推動改革的人"},{"start":5846.03,"end":5854.919,"text":"那如果真是為了團結就應該好好傾聽基層勞工的訴求多方溝通海拿百川我相信基層也一定能夠感受到主事者的善意的堆疊況且"},{"start":5858.971,"end":5875.564,"text":"團體 其他事業團體亦有成立廠廠工會並組成聯合會那這樣子也沒有產生說不團結的情況那如果說大工會只允許他們自己能夠設立分會反手來阻擋廠廠企業工會的成立相信絕對不會被基層的同仁所接受"},{"start":5876.184,"end":5904.085,"text":"那最後就是說提到廠廠工會也不要說限制一個縣市只能夠有一個廠廠的工會嘛因為你母公司的企業工會並不能夠完全如此的反映每個廠廠的實際運作的狀況啊那所以要能夠成立以各廠廠為本身為主體的工會才能夠切合勞工實際的需要 以上報告謝謝歐理事長那接下來我們請王振熙立委發言"},{"start":5919.81,"end":5935.14,"text":"首先非常謝謝主席還有衛王委員會召開今天的公聽會讓我們有機會來多聽聽各位勞工代表還有工會的先進的意見其實我們也知道依照國工會法現行的規定"},{"start":5936.081,"end":5957.509,"text":"我們目前的工會其實有分成企業工會產業工會還有職業工會等三種大類型可是我們也知道如果更細分的話那企業工會裡面還可以至少包括有企業工會廠廠工會關西企業工會跟金融集團的企業工會等等"},{"start":5958.489,"end":5986.342,"text":"這個工會類型那麼多我們也都了解這個不是問題的核心我們等一下會點出問題的核心在哪裡包括說這類型的這個不同的工會裡面到底它法律上的保障權利在哪裡這個才是我們所認知的這個核心的問題那以企業工會相較於產業跟職業工會來說的話我國目前其實在法律上對企業工會的保障是最多最強的"},{"start":5987.742,"end":6011.496,"text":"包括說企業工會獨有的權利有會務工價剛剛理事長有提到成立以後馬上就可以進行這個團體協約協商進行調整四項調整的權利各項勞基法的同意權陪同勞檢的權利還有很重要的就是在支付會裡面等相關的會議有保障的席次這些的核心"},{"start":6012.757,"end":6026.324,"text":"包括就是有剛剛所提到的誰有資格來請會務公價誰能有發動勞資爭議還有要求團體協商的權利誰有勞基法的同意權還有誰有各種法定會議的代表權"},{"start":6027.421,"end":6042.51,"text":"那今天我們這個廠廠工會的爭議除了工會組織的範圍跟籌組的要件的同時其實就是來自於這個法律上的權力要怎麼來分配舉例來說光是勞基法的同意權依照勞動部的含釋"},{"start":6044.271,"end":6072.291,"text":"廠廠工會就得有比企業工會有更優先的同意權那關係企業工會跟金融集團的控股工會就沒有勞基金法的同意權這個就是核心之所在在實務上各種協商的資格工價能不能申請還有各種法定會議席次要怎麼分配當然就更是各種爭議的來源所以其實在這次工會的修工會法的修法裡面當然勞動部"},{"start":6074.273,"end":6094.213,"text":"依據這個憲法法庭的判決會希望盡快處理將廠廠工會定義跟要件從私刑細則裡面把它提升到這個法律的位階可是在這個過程裡面期待今天我們的勞動部的長官需要說明清楚兩個核心的問題"},{"start":6095.094,"end":6114.242,"text":"第一個要如何提升工會組織率還有強化集體協商第二個部分各類型工會的法律保障權益要如何分配這是剛剛所提到的核心問題就是今天要麻煩我們勞動部出席的長官需要說明清楚的部分以上"},{"start":6123.021,"end":6132.486,"text":"謝謝王委員講得很清楚那繼續我們請南亞電路板企業工會理事長孫守凱發言"},{"start":6142.837,"end":6158.329,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位工會先進,大家好我是南亞電路板企業工會理事長孫首凱剛剛很多工會先進講的其實都是公營企業可是你們想到民營企業像我南亞電路板我們是台塑集團的"},{"start":6160.233,"end":6175.155,"text":"公司本來我們台塑集團其實也很多工會都是廠廠工會不管南亞台塑台塑化台化甚至一些子公司都是各個廠的廠廠工會比如說南亞有工山廠林口廠景新廠"},{"start":6176.38,"end":6197.691,"text":"因為以前我們沒有所謂的公司的企業工會所以後面因為修法之後可以成立可是現在成立其實通常都沒有什麼作用通常還是真正的只有廠長工會他才有實際上跟公司不管是談判、協商、協調的功能"},{"start":6199.303,"end":6224.883,"text":"可是你看我為什麼是南亞電路板企業工會那是因為我們公司本來在景興廠後來在樹林廠開了一個樹林廠可是就是因為這些限制樹林廠沒辦法組廠廠工會所以變成要組公司的企業工會這個變成很奇怪的現象就是說我樹林廠的員工我要靠別人去"},{"start":6225.99,"end":6249.057,"text":"去組這個企業工會,這個企業工會會跟原本在景新廠的工會,其實這才會有牢牢相爭的問題如果你分開的話,就沒有這個問題,你各個廠廠工會你管理自己的會員、自己的員工,處理這些問題可是你弄一個企業工會,兩邊他都可以處理景新廠他也可以跟原本的景新廠工會"},{"start":6250.057,"end":6277.826,"text":"去處理問題反而變成會有一些紛爭如果理念不同的時候所以我還是希望那個廠廠公務還是能開放因為畢竟民營企業很多都是他每個廠他的性質不同因為他產品別不同可能他的管理制度就不同像有的電子產業跟一般傳產他的管理制度是不同的他的環境也都是不同的所以他只有"},{"start":6279.025,"end":6295.631,"text":"因為產品別這些都不同所以只有廠廠工會的地方的員工才能瞭解他們才能處理他廠廠發生員工發生的事情所以我還是建議說還是因為以前我們也沒有這些限制也沒有造成什麼消滅什麼團結圈"},{"start":6297.943,"end":6317.549,"text":"消滅協商權也沒有這些問題啊為什麼是之後成立新增的這個法之後才會有再有成立廠廠工會會發生這個問題以前沒有這個限制沒有這個問題啊我是代表民營企業一些廠廠希望成立廠廠工會能成立廠廠工會發言謝謝"},{"start":6322.522,"end":6332.523,"text":"謝謝孫理事長不敢看了 看完了好 我們接續邀請資深供應人士 毛振輝先生歡迎"},{"start":6334.561,"end":6355.087,"text":"主席各位來賓大家好我想我們站在這裡就其實很多事情要對著勞動部在講他在修法的過程中並沒有真正傾聽基層的聲音基層公會的那我自己從事公會運動三十幾年我看到太多的現象我就拿中華"},{"start":6356.007,"end":6374.942,"text":"航空的例子來講中華航空為什麼後來有空服員跳出來組織工會因為他沒有辦法在企業裡面組織工會可是最後的抗爭是因為上面這個工會被掌控住了被資方掌控住了幾乎被很多的利益掌控住了"},{"start":6375.947,"end":6390.163,"text":"他的理事長可以做到公司的副總利益的輸送最後是出賣的抵押更多的員工我組織過朝陽縣產業總工會可是有很多的工會會進來包含中華電信的分會進來"},{"start":6393.146,"end":6409.885,"text":"因為分會組我們在審核他的資格的時候他的資格其實是類似於工會法那樣的資格做那包含另外一個石油工會當時進來也是類似我們要審核他到底是不是類似於工會法那樣審核"},{"start":6410.746,"end":6422.516,"text":"電力工會有進來,分會有進來,我們拒絕他因為他完全沒有照工會法的選舉方式可是我們今天看到工會法在修法的過程中只是在幫國營事業繼續維護他們原有的權益"},{"start":6425.618,"end":6443.49,"text":"那我講的不客氣我從一路走來我看到國營工會有很多大型的國營工會幾乎像惡霸一樣他佔有很多地方的發言權但是他底下的員工發生事情的時候他找不到申訴的地方竟然會找到地方的產業總工會"},{"start":6446.229,"end":6461.879,"text":"甚至找到立委我想委員就知道了就是總工會已經沒有大型的總工會它已經變成一個集團的時候它不會寬駐到底下的時候拆裂它本來就是一個好事拆裂它才有競爭我想勞動部經常講說工會要有競爭才會有進步"},{"start":6466.522,"end":6493.893,"text":"分會裡面很多是沒有競爭能力的他自然就淘汰剛剛有講說人數不夠人數不夠他自然就淘汰了你的會員不會靠近他不會加入他所以工會多元化本來是工會發展的方向中鋼運通大家更清楚當時在做的過程中中鋼工會這到底是什麼態度勞動部更清楚幫著資方去打壓中鋼運通工會"},{"start":6495.808,"end":6511.837,"text":"這個是一個公會到最後變成看起來像惡霸一樣你打壓其他的人到時候最後申訴都沒有申訴其實因為我太老了老到不怕人家罵因為回去就只有一堆人繼續罵"},{"start":6513.246,"end":6530.573,"text":"因為我已經77歲了可是我在工會運動中看到太多的形態也看到更多的國營事業國營事業假不改革它分會假不改革的話它沒有錢就是它更多的基層工人會團結起來要求自己組工會這是實際上發生的"},{"start":6534.594,"end":6561.369,"text":"我相信台鐵長受過那個例子他就後來有台鐵的產工出來就是因為至於總會假如不改革不進步的話他必然會讓工會分裂掉分裂掉不是壞事起碼他有代表性嘛當他站出來的時候他假如不真正為基層的工人做事的話他必然事實上會被淘汰掉而且甚至台灣的工會組織力本來就是"},{"start":6562.881,"end":6577.666,"text":"非常非常低他們都在講國營公會怎樣怎樣我告訴各位一般私營的公會要請公價是非常非常困難的不然像我們這樣早期在公會裡面是用自己的特別價用自己的病價去過的"},{"start":6579.236,"end":6601.553,"text":"謝謝各位我們希望是公會長在修法中是真正讓公會能夠團結的不是像現在國民公會講的那種團結團結在他們手上然後底下的人是被左右被分裂的好 謝謝委員謝謝毛正輝先生那繼續我們請中華民國國際機場公會聯合會秘書長杜光宇發言"},{"start":6610.612,"end":6634.017,"text":"主席大家好我覺得前面講很多我自己就簡單補充一下這樣其實工會法事實上在一百年修法修成廠長工會必須有獨立人事會計但是我們看一百年以前我們來看這個國運事業事實上有菸酒工會聯合會台肥聯合會台菸聯合會自來水工會聯合會民營的有台樹工會聯合會"},{"start":6635.994,"end":6664.328,"text":"這些都是以廠廠工會為他們基層的構成然後以聯合會為主體來跟資方進行勞資的協商談判我請問這個有影響到勞工團結嗎其實沒有啊運作非常順暢啊那接下來我們來看齁其實在一百年以前那個中華電信跟台電也都有些地方的營業處有成立所謂的廠廠工會那這些廠廠工會的會員其實也都加入總會啊那有影響到團結嗎沒有啊"},{"start":6665.342,"end":6693.952,"text":"反而地方的這些桃園工會因為他們更貼近民意他們比較了解基層他們甚至可以補總會的不足雙方也很和諧也是大家合作桃園這邊有中立有中華電信的研究所的工會也是合作的很順暢大家很和諧所以這有什麼問題我這搞不懂為什麼這影響到團結接下來我們來看100年之後如果照勞動部的說法"},{"start":6695.183,"end":6721.855,"text":"為了促成工會團結要進行這個修法可我們來看事實上工會最高的團結的極致是罷工嘛一百年之後哪些工會罷工機師職業工會空服員職業工會甚至一些產業工會當然我們有些工會也是有蠻進步的一些聲音包括像那個中華電信它也是職業工會為主體所以但是我們這樣來看的話事實上"},{"start":6723.638,"end":6740.098,"text":"勞動部的一百年的這個修法並沒有這樣的效果嘛你們對工會的團結的促進是什麼我看不懂所以我覺得從實務上來看我從28歲加入台灣勞工陣線我跟你們這些國營事業的前輩"},{"start":6741.818,"end":6768.146,"text":"雖然我應該是跟你年紀差不多或比你們年輕啦但我跟中郵的黃清賢黃大哥跟你們台電的劉博包含我當年幫台電三期分會來製作文宣我們很辛苦的在一個國民事業來成立勞工連線為什麼當時工會就是大一統的政府跟工會的結合我們弄勞方連線在中郵工會在中華電信工會"},{"start":6772.145,"end":6796.98,"text":"把真正自主勞工的主導權給拿回來那事實上成績當中的精神我們應該更鼓勵我們這些勞工可以發出自己的聲音更重視工會內的民主我是期待今天的這個修法事實上應該是要成績原來我們在以前工運的改革這個精神那後來我在那個94年跟毛澤飛、毛大哥組合桃園產業總工會那我也曾經是"},{"start":6800.134,"end":6829.122,"text":"那個前輩曾茂興 曾大哥的助理這麼多年的工運經驗我覺得我只有一個感想我自己組的廠廠工會不下六七十間那這些工會經歷過很多抗爭包含罷工這麼長久的一個實際的經歷裡我老實說這個問題並不是所謂的學者專家或律師用學理來跟我們做解釋的"},{"start":6830.114,"end":6855.751,"text":"他事實上更應該從實際台灣工會的發展的脈絡來看他到底需要不需要也不是以空洞的一個工會團結來做這樣的一種修法的依據那我希望在場的 包含今天有國營事業的一些理事長朋友大家都是勞工 都是為了勞選努力我們平心靜氣沉靜下來來思考怎麼樣設計對台灣勞工的未來是最有利的 謝謝"},{"start":6861.293,"end":6875.155,"text":"謝謝杜秘書長那接下來我們請台電公司台東區營業處企工會理事長謝雪霞花言"},{"start":6883.646,"end":6891.541,"text":"各位委員 各位來賓大家好今天有幸參加這次的公聽會我是服務於"},{"start":6893.234,"end":6916.649,"text":"台灣電力公司台東區營業處我是身障人士剩下兩年就即將退休過去的幾年無端遭受我的前處長而且其他的老公身兼勞工董事以及台東區處代表和分會常務理事兩夫妻聯手霸凌羅茲罪名連續的繼過懲處還有篡改考積並等"},{"start":6921.328,"end":6934.854,"text":"意圖使人喪失工作權讓我身心受到很重大的傷痛今天我很沉動的在這裡講台電公司的亂源就是台灣電力公司底下沒有合法登記的分會因此我在113年6月召集了台東區處的一些同仁籌組台東企業公衛"},{"start":6944.895,"end":6953.697,"text":"但成立後因為台電公司台灣電力工會向勞動部訴願就遭到撤銷但成立後因為"},{"start":6954.81,"end":6966.357,"text":"因為看到那個燒肉工廠以及那個華航企業工會的成立以及最近8月8號去年的8月8號最高行政法院112年度上至第119號判決駁回了勞動部對中華電信屏東區處營業處企業工會的上訴讓中華電信屏東區處企業工會能合法成立我想說勞動部為什麼無視"},{"start":6984.388,"end":7002.367,"text":"宪法法庭的裁定及众多行政诉讼胜诉成立的企业工会案例只听信台湾电力工会片面之词罔顾基层劳工的权利仍然以无独立人士预算会计为由撤销台中企业工会的成立"},{"start":7003.288,"end":7027.418,"text":"民國100年之後到110年113年為止公共增加了65個企業公會他裡面包含了各地區的港務公司企業公會國軍武林農場企業公會高雄市政府公園企業公會等等都能成立我想問唯獨只要大公會溯源勞動部就將該企業公會撤銷請問一下勞動部你作為"},{"start":7034.296,"end":7043.963,"text":"勞工的靠山為什麼人家大公會數月你就撤銷讓人不僅懷疑你是像你是因人而異而靠攏大公會勞動部應該是勞工最幾層勞工的靠山是作為應該作為廣大勞工的立場設想如今卻與全國地方勞工為敵"},{"start":7059.065,"end":7065.77,"text":"獨厚大公會的濫權請在座勞動部的長官請你們如果可以的話盡快駁回本會的溯源我們交由行政法庭去裁決再來台電公司近來發生很多霸凌事件甚至很多想不開自殺身亡但事後調查往往避重就輕讓許多家屬"},{"start":7084.175,"end":7103.154,"text":"遭受很大的傷害有些家屬將公司告到法院如高雄區處同仁曾建源自殺事件父母提告到公司霸凌傷害賠償1130度勞數字41號民事事件就是一個實例目前台電公司經營不善虧損連連"},{"start":7106.383,"end":7121.52,"text":"職場環境不佳 員工離職率高升但電力工會並沒有發揮實質的能力公司的永續經營如何改善財務狀況 轉虧為盈以及改善職場的向心力工會是一個很大的關鍵"},{"start":7124.67,"end":7128.832,"text":"台電公司的失業體很大各縣市總共加起來有72個單位我們應該鼓勵各地區的廠長企業工會成立聽取最基層勞工的聲音包含更廣大勞工的意見不該以技術性的法條限縮各縣市勞工的主工會的權利"},{"start":7144.261,"end":7173.421,"text":"台灣是一個民主自由的國家憲法保障人民自由集會結社的權利政府從解嚴後開放黨禁國家並沒有因為眾多黨的成立而破碎反而更進步同樣的勞工權 軟件權更不會因為各地方廠廠企業工會成立而破碎反而因良性競爭會讓工會發揮最大功能迫使台電公司必須改變經營方針以及能源政策的改變"},{"start":7174.961,"end":7202.069,"text":"懇請委員及各位長官為基層勞工把關修改開放勞工成立企業公會的公會法而不是量身訂做主外新公會的成立獨厚、雇主或資方互用的御用公戶或是大公會謝謝以上說明謝謝理事長從台東趕過來辛苦了接下來我們請王一鳴委員發言"},{"start":7209.612,"end":7212.714,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天在座所有出席的工會代表大家好那我要先說一聲大家辛苦了為台灣的經濟大家都在第一線做出最大的貢獻跟打拼那我想我們台灣"},{"start":7225.863,"end":7236.427,"text":"其實最珍貴的價值就是我們是一個自由民主而且擁有多元聲音這樣的一個社會跟國家那所以就像今天的公聽會我們有各自邀請各自站在不同的立場跟聲音然後大家可以多元的自由的表達自己的看法我覺得這個就是台灣社會最珍貴的價值那昨天在未還委員會其實我們也要求勞動部"},{"start":7254.093,"end":7261.595,"text":"這樣的公聽會不只是今天召開勞動部也應該要再召開一場因為台灣這樣的一個多元價值的社會我們遇到一些問題的爭議的時候很重要的就是溝通在溝通而且我們要學會去聆聽彼此的一些聲音跟意見那我想今天我要針對我個人對於這個廠廠工會這件事情提出我個人的看法就因為我覺得保留多元的價值聲音是一個很重要的事情"},{"start":7283.624,"end":7295.597,"text":"所以我比較贊成這個國際勞工組織他公約上面的一個看法就是如果在勞動部應該要保障我們的勞犬的情況底下那我們應該要積極去保障每一個勞工他都可以有自由去表達他多元意見聲音"},{"start":7301.428,"end":7306.551,"text":"而且要確保這樣的一個管道所以事實上在國際勞工組織裡面他就特別去強調了每一個勞動者他組織結社的這樣的一個權利所以如果是站在國際勞工組織這樣的一個看法的話我們應該要保障多元而不是朝向單一這個應該是我們要去追求的一個價值"},{"start":7322.902,"end":7330.125,"text":"另外他也認為勞動者他可以加入或退出工會的權利就是由國際勞工組織他所強調是我們去看重每一個勞工去尊重他那這樣子的一個"},{"start":7336.104,"end":7354.213,"text":"大的guideline跟原則跟方針我覺得我們一直說台灣我們要跟國際接軌那這樣子國際組織他的一些範定我們應該是要把它想辦法落實在我們整個台灣推動的勞動政策跟我們的法令當中那也就是這樣子當從這樣的立場回來看現在廠廠工會"},{"start":7358.015,"end":7361.717,"text":"因為這一次的這個釋憲的申請那勞動部我覺得是太急躁了因為這樣的一個釋憲申請你就急著把執法直接就搬到母法而去忽視看到現在你執法訂定的現在實施的過程當中其實本來就存在一些問題那我們剛剛也特別聽到了就是無論是民營的"},{"start":7379.426,"end":7384.372,"text":"或者是像剛剛是台電的代表是從台東來的他們都在強調一個觀點就是說我們現在如果變成是單一的這個企業工會的時候那他們很多廠廠工會他們在地的意見跟聲音跟他們反映的這一些看法他可能就"},{"start":7397.566,"end":7423.011,"text":"不容易就是下情上打或者是不會被反映出來那如果我們珍視台灣的我們這一些各個產業你看我們的中小企業是各行各業都有我覺得這種多元跟蓬勃就是我們最重要的價值那所以在這樣的一個前提底下我覺得修法的方向不應該是限縮變成是單一的聲音而是監察院的國家人權委員會他特別提到了"},{"start":7423.792,"end":7438.71,"text":"應該要保障各工會的生存空間就是我們應該是這樣子做那不應該是透過法令強制去限制他的生存空間我覺得這些大的原則方向我們應該要把握好那在這樣的前提底下"},{"start":7439.23,"end":7459.32,"text":"然後再去討論剛剛我當然也聽到有些企業工會的代表提到說這個可能內部會有分歧呀那或者是說這個總公司的溝通他是重視廠廠工會的意見不重視反而不重視總工會的這個意見等等但是我覺得那個都是資方這邊他要去做調整的而不是因為勞方這邊都成立了廠廠工會然後就會導致覺得這個完全"},{"start":7465.442,"end":7490.437,"text":"會影響這個勞動權或團結權我覺得這件事情是應該透過溝通而不是透過消滅廠廠工會來達到這樣的一個目標所以我認為勞動部你現在的這個修法其實第二場的公聽會你們應該要再多聽聲音那另外一個就是勞動部我這邊提出來的修法方向是其實是根據勞動部你的大解法的看法"},{"start":7491.464,"end":7512.417,"text":"這個可能是可以有一個解方就是說你現在大解法你的這個保護法第二條第一項的解釋就是說如果那一個廠他擁有獨自經營步測或可單獨辦理登記的營業單位者就得以成立工會這是你自己在大解法你的定義"},{"start":7513.818,"end":7535.023,"text":"既然你的大解法有這樣的一個定義我覺得你現在要在這個工會法裡面就大幅去限縮你這兩者是有矛盾的既然你的大解法可以採取這樣子的一個認定跟看待那是不是你這個部分像我提出來的版本我就希望這個部分入母法是用這樣的一個界定而不是你現在你現在是完全獨立的人事會計某種程度當然是對現在存有的廠廠工會來講這是一種消滅的行為"},{"start":7541.804,"end":7562.531,"text":"就是太嚴格而且是大幅的限縮但是如果你回到跟你的大解法是一致的解釋跟立場的時候那你在處理上面其實就有一致性你又保有現在的這個廠廠工會它有一些符合這個標準的它還是可以持續的運作要不然你自己會有矛盾你遇到大解法的時候你的認定是這個"},{"start":7566.352,"end":7574.714,"text":"這樣子的一個廠廠就符合你大解法結果你將來你的母法裡面更限縮那請問如果你是這樣的一個修法方向將來你是不是要回來修你的大解法你要去限縮那這樣子地方的這個廠廠它變成是你的母書都要回到總公司喔那你這樣要符合你大解法的恐怕將來在這種大型企業裡面那就更困難了這個是你在保障老犬的時候我覺得"},{"start":7593.719,"end":7607.294,"text":"勞動部你要很審慎的思考就是他兩者兩者其實是會互相牽動的所以我覺得今天這個謝謝昭偉有安排這樣一個公聽會我覺得其實是很好就是說讓這個我們不同立場的這個"},{"start":7609.316,"end":7637.278,"text":"企業工會產業工會跟廠商工會之間大家都可以有一個對話的機會那我覺得作為勞動部其實你在思考任何政策的時候你應該思考是說這個對於維護勞權是有益還是會限縮還是會倒退這個應該是作為勞動主管機關你最上位該去思考的那如果就我個人的看法如果是回到你原來這樣的一個工會法就是你把原來的施行細則"},{"start":7638.539,"end":7663.156,"text":"直接提到母法那這個對於勞權坦白講是一個倒退這個不是一個進步所以在修法的過程我覺得要非常的細膩那我覺得各工會之間其實對話才是一個最好的解方就是說大家都很辛苦那我們彼此對話合作然後進一步保障大家所有的勞工的權益我覺得應該是我們追求的目標謝謝"},{"start":7667.303,"end":7673.85,"text":"好 謝謝王毓民委員那我們接續請高雄市獨立總工會理事長王慶紅 理事長歡迎"},{"start":7682.028,"end":7710.649,"text":"好主席各位委員各位在場先進大家好那聽了那麼多其實我準備了很多資料你看我桌上厚厚一疊我現在都不用講了我可以跟各位講該講各位都講完了我直接下結論基本上憲法14條就規範人民有集會結社的自由今天大法官已經判你基本上就是違憲我們勞動部居然還弄出這一種那麼荒謬的版本"},{"start":7711.854,"end":7740.263,"text":"我們的政院我們行政院這個版本送出來能看嗎基本上就是違法在這還討論半天討論要不要可不可以好像是懇求我這邊跟主席還有各位委員報告一下現在台灣社會為什麼大家對公會冷漠反感就是這些國公營事業甚至勞動部底下輔導這些公會導致的結果為什麼每一次選舉"},{"start":7741.973,"end":7769.97,"text":"現場有民眾黨國民黨有民進黨不好意思百光百業站在後面最多是什麼黨是不是民進黨是啊居然還有媒體報導報導什麼中綱理事長政治資源深不可測各位這就是結果主席我這邊很鄭重呼籲如果大家認為民進黨做得不好"},{"start":7770.953,"end":7799.249,"text":"要怎麼做是不是要國民黨民眾黨甚至100人我就可以組織一個新的政黨而不是限縮你一定要有多元的政黨今天這個做不好我才能把它換掉再換句話說你們看各位現在那麼多的企業工會在這邊今天一拖拉鼓每一個上來都說啊不行啊這樣是貪得無厭啊要貪會務假我請問你們你們企業工會有沒有請會務假"},{"start":7801.343,"end":7824.769,"text":"有沒有所有資源都在你們身上不給這些小工會一點生存的權利在我來看你們才是貪得無厭大家都說做工會要心平氣和不要得罪人主席今天的制度就已經要了我們所有這些小工會的命了我們再不跳出來"},{"start":7826.192,"end":7838.403,"text":"我們搞什麼工會啊搞工會是搞特權嗎這些不好意思主席我前面忘記跟各位介紹一下什麼叫煙機工會什麼叫 Yellow Union"},{"start":7839.505,"end":7858.005,"text":"你們知道嗎就是御用工會就是這工會基本上來就是幫資方來發言說你看今天我們很多與會的這些工會的代表我很痛心他們居然今天講的都是幫資方在發言你這樣會讓資方很多人要協商很多意見"},{"start":7859.557,"end":7876.022,"text":"這不是就資方應該要負的責任嗎這不是就當初成立工會的最主要的核心的要件嗎所以最終我沉重的呼籲各位如果我們要一個進步祥和共榮的台灣"},{"start":7877.236,"end":7901.242,"text":"真的大家要把這一些已經我覺得已經不是用那種退步或者是用那種荒謬的工會來形容我覺得太多大型工會他真的都變怪獸他們一直在吞噬所有基層的基本的權利然後來換取自身以後可能要做部分區立委或者是做一個什麼局長"},{"start":7902.402,"end":7930.341,"text":"這我不知道可是這些例子非常多這就是全力集中最後的結果所以拜託各位只要今天我們的民進黨委員或者是我們的政院或者是我們勞動部他行政部中立的部分懇請各位在野的委員能夠都支持至少符合憲法14條人民有集會結社的自由謝謝"},{"start":7935.368,"end":7946.332,"text":"謝謝,謝謝王理事長,講得真好來,我們接續我們請國立台北大學法律學院院長,何院長歡迎這個召集人,還有這個在場的各位委員還有這個各位公衛前輩,各位學者專家,大家早安"},{"start":7966.061,"end":7982.666,"text":"事實上這個我是覺得蠻榮幸這個機會來參與這樣的一個公聽會特別見到蠻多我敬佩的我的工會的各位前輩還有我常遇到的這個第一線的的一個各工會理事長"},{"start":7983.846,"end":8008.148,"text":"事實上所談的內容我也都覺得非常的重要因為為了整個工會的一個發展我覺得確實也是需要把聲音講出來我當時也有幸在大官會議在做出來的時候我也擔任所謂的專家鑑定人也出示了相關的報告"},{"start":8009.309,"end":8036.696,"text":"那不過我講的不重要所以這個內容好像各位比較注意的是這個人權這個國家人權會所做出來的鑑定書所以我的鑑定書其實意義不大那在意義不大之下我想我還是很弱的小小的把我的研究心得我是用中立的角度來提供給各位做參考那事實上這個"},{"start":8038.305,"end":8059.355,"text":"本來也整理了這個講綱後來我發現其實大家都講完了大家都講完都講得很棒那整個比較重要的就是大家聚焦在這個這個結社自由的有相關的相關的一個結社的一個促進等等那也確實"},{"start":8061.551,"end":8087.259,"text":"勞工就是應該有加入工會的機會勞工就是要能夠跟僱主團體協商本來要開另外一戰線公務人員之類的不過這個戰線我們就不要再開了從這樣的一個發展裡面其實各國也都有一些保障我也就覺得很重要各國對勞工的保障的方式原則上當然也是承認他們可以加入工會"},{"start":8088.083,"end":8117.385,"text":"只是加入工會之後在工會的相關的管制上各國有各國不同的模式例如日本他勞工可以組成工會那大部分的確實也是企業工會但是他們也比較再怎麼小也大概是以所謂的事業單位為限而且在相關的管制裡面如果你要進行所謂的不當勞動行為救濟那就會被要求要審查等等的管制方式"},{"start":8117.881,"end":8136.657,"text":"那美國我想在座很多人也都了解可以組公會但是你要去進行協商的時候他們就有一個相關的程序去管制說你能夠去協商的這樣的一個資格所以其實每個國家都有不同的對公會團結權等等的相關的一些保障的或是規範的方式"},{"start":8137.415,"end":8166.348,"text":"所以我覺得這個也是事實上其實今天的議題我自己會覺得這是各國在整個的政策上的發展的一個選擇你要怎麼樣去處理勞工的議題當然要尊重他能夠去組成工會的這樣的一個權限那在這樣的一個方向之下各國都有不同的規範的方式我們這個回到我們的台灣的部分"},{"start":8169.141,"end":8188.742,"text":"我們台灣目前剛剛這個這個有委員提到我們有這個各種工會不同的型態我只是羅列大概有職業工會有產業工會然後有企業工會的這些方式那在這些工會的組成裡面我想過去為了這個"},{"start":8191.045,"end":8211.367,"text":"就是說讓因為工會企業工會一般我們在評估上可能會覺得比較弱勢等等所以有一些保障一些保障那這些保障裡面包含費用價會貸扣團體協商資格等等所以一旦被定義為是企業工會就有政策上就有這些保障所以問題在於說"},{"start":8214.431,"end":8231.623,"text":"整個的政策上要怎麼處理如果放開工會這些工會的組成會不會干擾到後續的會務價會不會代工協商資格要不要一併做調整呢所以在這樣的一個政策選擇裡面到底要怎麼樣去做一個折衷呢我想這也才是關鍵那在這個關鍵之下"},{"start":8235.08,"end":8255.373,"text":"在大官的解釋裡面他明白講了雖然我的鑑定報告當時也不重要他最後講的是沒有違反比例原則沒有侵害團結權只是這個未接違反的法律保留所以要提升到法律的層面那在這樣的一個層面之下"},{"start":8256.445,"end":8279.34,"text":"我想在目前以不變動最大的幅度的狀況之下勞動部去提了這樣的一個把原本的然後希望能夠再更清楚的提升到這樣的一個法律層面這也是一種選項那當然這也是需要在我剛剛說的是政策選擇需要溝通那這個溝通之下會不會產生對其他的對企業公會的保障產生影響這也是一種選擇"},{"start":8281.447,"end":8300.144,"text":"這是需要溝通那現在是不變動不大變動為方向我這麼推測這個提供參考 謝謝我的講的不重要 謝謝謝謝侯院長那接下來我們請林業勤立委"},{"start":8318.756,"end":8344.74,"text":"今天很感謝各位的工會的頭人來到這邊也感謝我們的所有人來舉辦這樣子的一個公聽會的確台灣事實上是工會逐年下降的主工會比例從7.3那降到2024年的大概5.98而且跟其他國家比的話事實上是相對的事實上是低的"},{"start":8345.404,"end":8360.363,"text":"那而且這個工會裡面大概以職業工會事實上是佔比比較高是為了社會保險投保的單位所成立的這樣的一個職業工會相對於其他的企業產業跟我們的總聯合會這些的比例上事實上是偏低的"},{"start":8360.882,"end":8372.95,"text":"可是工會就像勞工的好處因為他們很多需要要去處理的尤其是兩個很重要的也就是團體協約的締結跟修改跟廢紙和我們的勞資爭議的處理"},{"start":8377.349,"end":8401.446,"text":"尤其在臺灣這樣子的一個狀態裡面也就是公會組織率偏低的國家在面對勞資協商的時候資方的力量勢必會超過我們勞方那真的就會不利於我們的勞動者那而且再從數據來看的話近五年大概每一年臺灣的勞資增益大概是在有2576"},{"start":8404.855,"end":8431.19,"text":"件左右那就是可是看到這個數據呢大概以我們的所謂的零售製造跟資源服務住宿跟餐飲業居多超過一半那可是我也擔心的是說這個勞資爭議的案件裡邊這些申訴的並順利結的案子裡邊有兩萬五千多件可是懷疑那些沒有順利結案甚至沒有提出救濟的到底"},{"start":8431.909,"end":8453.829,"text":"有多少所以看起來如果工會比較少的時候相對的這樣的狀況裡邊就是看5年來整個經申訴結案的大概37萬5千位的一個勞資爭議的勞工幾乎都是76.3%都是靠自己向地方政府勞工局處申訴"},{"start":8454.98,"end":8473.034,"text":"只有23.7%是獲得民間團體的協助那可能就是會是公會的力量來做協助可是在勞資正義的案件當中要拿回自己的權利的時候需要的是勞動法的一個相關的一個專業多數的勞工並不具備這樣子的一個專業"},{"start":8476.65,"end":8501.921,"text":"那大家回到這次要去討論的這件事情的確我們的廠廠工會資格要件那我們的憲法法庭第七號判決也是說要由法律來做明定那不過這次的修法勞動部是想要把工會法施行細則第二條的文字直接卻搬到本法來的話"},{"start":8503.021,"end":8529.235,"text":"可能要考慮到幾個點第一個點就是我們的稅籍登記取代如果公司登記跟營業登記跟商業登記並且獨立的人事預算跟與會計並列為資格要件是不是一個合適的限制所以這要考慮再者如果不具稅籍登記的是不是允許具備工廠登記的勞動勞工手足工會"},{"start":8531.192,"end":8551.969,"text":"而且我們要如何看待這件事情在同一個地址同時成立企業工會跟廠廠工會的問題第二個是不對外營業的內部單位像廚房是不是可以成立工會這也是一個問題第三個是免營業稅額的範圍像是農業工作或像是社區的產業成立工會"},{"start":8558.177,"end":8573.696,"text":"團結權不會因此受到破壞的話我期待本市修法能夠用最大的範圍以上謝謝林委員我報告一下等一下我們第21位來賓講完之後"},{"start":8578.654,"end":8594.009,"text":"這個以上是我們立法院邀請的那還有四位來賓也要求發言我們會給他們發言好那我們接續我們請蔡智陽弘大法律事務所主持律師發言"},{"start":8599.935,"end":8624.448,"text":"時間限制我就不跟各位一一喊訊那所謂112年憲判制的第七號判決白紙黑字寫得很清楚工會成立要件的規範設計立法者享有一定的行程空間那也明文說到原來適應細則的規範雖然違反法律保留的原則但是並沒有違反比例原則的規定理由是為了防止工會過於零碎無法凝聚力量破碎化的現象那現行以廠廠作為"},{"start":8626.289,"end":8627.189,"text":"以上是憲法法庭的判決寫的文字"},{"start":8651.637,"end":8680.777,"text":"就今天的一乘一有没有侵害结社自由的问题本人认为劳工团结权虽然是结社自由的一种然而劳工团结权与一般的结社自由之间仍然有本质上的差异劳工团结权之于组织工会是基于劳工与雇主间处于一个弱势的关系我们为了促使劳工团结所以国家赋予许多的特权例如团体协商法定同意法定代表法定货物价以及团体的争议权"},{"start":8681.677,"end":8708.187,"text":"那也因此有這些特權所以在這個規範設計上必須要以有利於導向形塑於夥伴競爭關係以及讓工會與僱主之間抗衡以及交涉來為必要所以工會與一般的結社兩者之間有事務本質的差異不能要求工會這個結社的自由必須以一般結社的自由來等同看齊除非我們要減少工會的權利但事實上不可能因約廢時"},{"start":8709.147,"end":8732.817,"text":"也就是我们不能使得工会成为一个具有其表的形式而无实现劳动三权的实质的权利这国家反而有保护义务不足的瑕疵现行的依照原适应细则的实务结果实际上与欧洲人权法院、德国、英美等国并没有太大的差异因此本人认为不认有违反这个IOA公约保障的节奏自由以及团结权"},{"start":8733.837,"end":8750.637,"text":"那就第一層二和一層三的這個問題我認為這個應該與數量的多寡與縣市的分布無關人應該以該場場是否具有一定的規模以及大法官憲判制所講的應該具備一定的經營的功能有關本人贊同原適應細則的規定依憲法"},{"start":8752.839,"end":8770.431,"text":"法院的判决提升到法律维杰就可因为现行适应系则所定的厂产已经算是一个企业组织最小的单位如果还要再切割容许涵盖公司下的内部单位比如说科、市、部门等等实际上在该范围内的工作劳工的劳动条件是不可能"},{"start":8771.372,"end":8788.059,"text":"獨立於這個其他單位之外難以期待雇主為這樣的內部單位員工讓步協商做成異於其他單位的結果因此實際上是很難去取得優於勞動條件的團體協約在一個碎裂化的常常型企業公會下因規模會員人數均少無法團結力量"},{"start":8789.039,"end":8806.965,"text":"雇主从中介入破坏的可能性也高本人身为不当劳动行为裁决委员会的委员在许多的裁决个案中的观察已经发现公会法定同意权代表权在附属公会下目前都异生这个牢牢相争的情形如果在小于目前实习者所定的规范"},{"start":8807.645,"end":8828.099,"text":"不但可能使得這個一個合理經營的企業單位下不同部門各自適用不同的勞動條件使得勞工無所適從更加使得勞勞相爭的情況一加的嚴重尤其在現行獨有的我國獨有的法律會務價的情況下如果致意容許成立的微小的工會表面上我們似乎可以提高工會的組織率但是會驟然增加雇主負擔會務價"},{"start":8831.761,"end":8852.392,"text":"那勢必更突增勞資爭議反而使得這個本來要保障我們工會幹部處理會務的權利那實際上使得工會無法有效的運作的來做弱化所以本人贊同維持原試驗系的規定如果需要修正建議也僅僅做微調就好這樣其實也才最符合憲法法庭判決的意旨謝謝蔡知陽律師"},{"start":8860,"end":8864.566,"text":"接下來我們請全國教育產業總工會理事長林碩傑歡迎"},{"start":8882.169,"end":8898.117,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天我們來參加這個公聽會不過蠻特殊的我們雖然有開會通知單不過在大門口是被擋住進不來所以雖然說我不是學者專家不過我們有公文這是蠻特殊的一個現象"},{"start":8899.378,"end":8925.483,"text":"那有關這個這次供聽員是主要是公共表達適應細則第2條第1項第2項的規定現在未接把它提升到這個母法那不過我們全教產是有發現就是說行政院本來就勞動部直接把這個適應細則的條文幾乎一模一樣就是複製貼到這個本法裡面去其實蠻特殊的其實我們是覺得這樣可能有待商榷"},{"start":8926.903,"end":8929.485,"text":"那裡面講到就是像獨立人事獨立會計獨立預算那後來這個勞動部的文件裡面有講到說有稅級編號那個這個部分其實我們覺得應該都還有討論的空間可是我們是認為說這樣也算是"},{"start":8947.822,"end":8972.257,"text":"有限制勞工結社自由限制了廠廠工會的成立那這個也是跟各位剛剛前面所聽到就是說跟國際勞工組織第87號98號公約還有兩公約的一些所保障的結社自由和團結權的精神相違背了那個條文的部分我就不再贅述因為前面大家都已經講過聽到所以我們全國教育產業總會針對這個同業公司"},{"start":8975.058,"end":8981.026,"text":"成立所謂廠長工會企業工會我們是認為說應該以開放為最高指導原則應該要開放不管是你怎麼開放或者是剛剛前面有先進講說有條件來開放我們認為說應該要以開放為最高指導原則"},{"start":8992.26,"end":9003.043,"text":"我們現在跳出來 不好意思 跳出來就是說現在的工會法 施行細則的話就是說用獨立人事預算會計跟勞動部後來又加一個稅級編號來限制這個廠長公會企業公會的成立可是這個工會法目前他也透過第六條限制這個各級學校成立所謂企業公會"},{"start":9018.627,"end":9041.619,"text":"那可是各位現在的這個各級學校他們有沒有獨立的人事會計預算稅級編號都有可是他們被限制了不是限制他們是被禁止被禁止那另外各個政府機關各個政府機關他們的這個有沒有獨立的人事會計預算甚至稅級編號"},{"start":9043.952,"end":9068.305,"text":"應該都有可是公務人員可不可以成立企業公會也不行所以其實這是一部很特殊的公會法我們發現就是說今天不管你有沒有獨立的人事會計預算或者是隨機編號政府都要透過公會法來限制你成立企業公會用公會法來限制這些受僱者的結社自由跟團結權"},{"start":9070.326,"end":9090.404,"text":"這個部分我們是認為不可取的我們認為說包括公務員他們也應該就是從公衛法第四條跳出來包括教師也是一樣不應該受到這樣的一個限制前面也講到就憲法第十條保障人民有接受自由可是今天我們看到公衛法就是說是一步跛腳的"},{"start":9091.505,"end":9106.579,"text":"限縮勞工結社自由禁止教師禁止公務員組織企業公會的公會法我們認為這些啊都違反了這個兩公約還有國際勞工組織公約我們希望說立法院能夠改變這個亂象以上謝謝謝謝我們林壽傑"},{"start":9117.233,"end":9125.198,"text":"理事長那接續我們請全國教師公會總聯合會執行長洪偉斌"},{"start":9133.915,"end":9156.824,"text":"主席 各位與會夥伴大家早安我是全教總及行政執行長洪偉斌代表全教總來參加這次的公聽會那我想 環顧所有的受惠者的歷史勞動基本權是來自於對於工作跟生存權的一個需求轉換成一個所謂的社會性質的基本勞動權"},{"start":9157.904,"end":9160.726,"text":"那所以這個集體勞動權就會變成了也變成加入組織公會或者是加入公會的團結權那為了跟雇主協商也變成了所謂的集體協商權那為了跟雇主對抗也衍生所謂的爭議權所以勞動三權其實基本上是應該回顧到是屬於受雇者應該所擁有的那我看到"},{"start":9182.538,"end":9207.004,"text":"目前公會法實行細則第二條跟第一項第二項被憲法法庭所判定它違反了法律保護原則所以因此在徵修第六條之一呢我們的認為是常常企業公會應該扶贏受僱者應該有所擁有的勞動基本權利也就是最大的開放讓所有受僱者都應該擁有合法的勞動三權"},{"start":9208.704,"end":9217.164,"text":"我想各種限制如果限制到了受惠者應該擁有一個基本的勞動權我覺得這個限制過當了"},{"start":9219.134,"end":9236.358,"text":"今天前院長來這邊參加公聽會其實有另外一個訴求就是我們對於一百年公會法修訂之後雖然賦予了教師可以組公會但是呢也限制了教師某些勞動三權第一個我們不能組企業公會"},{"start":9239.719,"end":9250.583,"text":"我們只能組四成級的職業工會、產業工會跟聯合工會那這裡的勞動三權呢就被限制了一個很重要的叫做企業工會那我們產生的問題就是我們的會務價目前工會法第36"},{"start":9260.496,"end":9288.815,"text":"對於企業公會的會務竟然教師公會就不適用那教師公會不適用之後呢就會變成我們的會務安全就產生一個疑慮為什麼產生疑慮呢 因為我們必須跟雇主協商那雇主協商裡面我們教師公會又被所謂團體協商制限制不得罷工不得罷工底下的協商權基本叫做無牙齒的老虎"},{"start":9290.031,"end":9315.934,"text":"無牙扯牙舞 因為大家都知道團體協約最大的武器就來自後面罷工當你被限制不得罷工的時候 那個協商是假的那這假了之後 就演變成什麼那個協商又協商不出來然後甚至呢 雇主會運用他的所謂準服權來阻擾這一個團體協約的進行那使得教師公會的會務價就產生了一個很嚴重的疑慮"},{"start":9317.36,"end":9331.095,"text":"雖然說在101年全教總曾經跟教育部協商過教師公會的會務價給予的原則但是教育部後來自己承認或者否認它是一個"},{"start":9332.587,"end":9346.754,"text":"韓式 而是變成指導公文指導公文就變成各地方政府可遵守 可不遵守根本不甩教育部這件事情所以我們有很大有兩個很明顯的例子比如2016年的南投縣林縣長就直接拒絕教師公會的會務假"},{"start":9348.675,"end":9370.172,"text":"直接取消 連談都沒得談那就必須讓教職公會去用老彩爭了多年之後甚至到換縣長那才給教職公會會務假那現在有一個更離譜的例子就是台南市台南市從102年開始有個蔡姓議員透過市議員的執行壓迫的"},{"start":9371.287,"end":9389.206,"text":"台南市教育局不給教師公會的會務假甚至限縮會務假 到現在還在有還在限制 甚至要求公會提供更多更多內部文件給他 他才要合給那根本就是危害了會務安全跟"},{"start":9390.007,"end":9415.365,"text":"所謂的工會運作那這個都不當的打壓那不當的打壓的最大原因就是因為我們的工會法裡面並沒有明確的給教師工會會務價的訂定所以我們希望藉由這一場工會當然除了廠長工會之外我們也拜託立法院甚至勞動部應該正視教師工會因為被限制不能組契工會所產生的會務價應該如何制定"},{"start":9418.968,"end":9440.765,"text":"我覺得在法規上面給予的空間那我們回到跟縣市政府或僱主在談的時候他的法規明確 一致性明確那就不再會有不當的打壓我覺得這個是我們今天全長來參加這個公聽會想要借用這個公聽會期待我們立法院期待我們勞務部門看見的部分以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝洪執行長"},{"start":9447.932,"end":9460.882,"text":"那接續我們邀請還有兩位第一位是洪秀榮中華電信股份有限公司勞工董事洪秀榮先生給他發給你"},{"start":9473.871,"end":9497.961,"text":"我們那個蘇委員謝謝還有各位委員大家好剛剛針對這幾個前輩的發言我發現很容易就提到我們中華電信公會跟中華電信公司根據這個議題來講我個人覺得在立一個法的時候應該是立到大家都能滿意才對像以中華電信為例"},{"start":9502.033,"end":9519.59,"text":"經歷了廠廠工會的衝擊以後中華電信目前內部有16個廠廠工會它真正的原因發生不是在於廠廠工會可不可以成立而是在於廠廠工會成立以後把自己的權利義務弄不清楚比如說今天某個廠廠廠工會成立以後他呢去跟"},{"start":9527.552,"end":9551.636,"text":"事業單位型的工會去爭取說我們產業民主裡面勞工董事他也要分一杯所以本來勞工董事按照法令規定是由事業單位去推派結果廠廠工會一成立他說他也要推派然後呢另外還有職安委員廠廠工會說他要參與結果政府只是發一道公文給我們中華電信工會說請公司"},{"start":9557.199,"end":9567.604,"text":"要求內部各16個工會去推一個勞工董事或推兩三個職安委員出來這在古代用國語講叫做二逃殺三次在現代用台語講叫做等一袋馬骨頭攏到手腳對不對"},{"start":9576.149,"end":9601.529,"text":"所以今天你要做到廠廠工會跟事業單位並存你一定要把一個機制訂好但是我們立法部門在訂這些的時候往往忽略到所以造成演變現在這個形象我個人這個月才卸任我是已經連任兩任的中華電信工會的理事長也是中華電信裡面最大的網路分公司廠廠工會的理事長現在是勞工董事"},{"start":9605.27,"end":9621.112,"text":"在中華電信公會擔任分會理事長現在是第九屆一任四年所以整個經歷過來我發現目前現在的規定裡面廠廠公會裡面的權利義務在立法裡面應該有所節制"},{"start":9622.56,"end":9642.379,"text":"如果服難的訂了以後現在的廠廠工會他也會吃到虧為什麼比如說今天一個廠廠工會裡面有兩千人了我們事業單位是兩萬人他兩千人但是兩千人裡面他有分獨立棟一棟大概一百人兩百人這樣子到時候廠廠工會裡面底下又設了更多廠廠工會因為三十人就可以組工會"},{"start":9643.14,"end":9660.069,"text":"對不對所以你一開放以後是造成現在以為他廠長工會很好了但是他裡面各部門又去成立工會那怎麼辦因為我們工會的組織門檻只有30人就好了對不對好那在我們台灣我個人認為組織力要提高"},{"start":9660.829,"end":9684.987,"text":"不是只有針對廠廠工會真正要提高的是開放讓中小企業的員工可以達到主工會比如說今天兩萬人的工會要找三十人很容易隨便就主廠廠工會我們裡面的廠廠工會兩千人隨便找三十個也找得到但是一家中小企業他只有一百人或五百人或甚至八十人他怎麼主工會所以這個門檻該不會降低"},{"start":9689.506,"end":9718.625,"text":"應該要研究一下應該要降低應該有雙維並存30人以上或總員工人數的五分之一就可以組工會用兩種方式去去弄出來第三個我覺得工會出來以後要讓工會有談判協商的權利以外還要有一個真正的爭議行為要給工會像剛剛教師工會你沒有給爭議行為這是不對的而且組織工會應該只要受雇者就可以組像"},{"start":9719.218,"end":9733.623,"text":"警察、消防委個人也贊成應該組工會應該全部都要組工會但是你只要把遊戲規則、權利義務定清楚組出來才不會爭論以上就是我的說明,謝謝大家謝謝洪秀龍前理事長最後一位我們請雲林縣產業總工會理事長林志丸理事長"},{"start":9748.422,"end":9750.104,"text":"感謝主席,感謝各位先進坐在那裡那麼久才知道要發言"},{"start":9768.943,"end":9786.222,"text":"那我想今天好像剛才有一間經理好像有提到今天好像都是國工與事業的工會比較多好像民營企業的比較少然後本身是屬於民營企業的七種工會是民營企業"},{"start":9787.483,"end":9809.849,"text":"那在雲林縣在雲林縣我們的說實在跟今天的狀況好像有點相反因為在雲林縣我們的絕大多數的部分都是廠長工會而且在我們的事業體系裡面在台收體系裡面也是全部幾乎都是全部都是廠長工會當然廠長工會其實跟"},{"start":9815.351,"end":9829.328,"text":"在場的狀況跟我們的狀況其實大致上都一致只要時間一久都會有一些富庶公威的產生那我想這都不是好事因為剛才有先進也有提到我們的目前的"},{"start":9830.069,"end":9844.945,"text":"的工會操組率一直沒有提升反而一直下降但是我會覺得這個提升的數值應該在提升在事業單位還沒有工會組織的的一個事業單位來提升這個部分"},{"start":9845.665,"end":9854.531,"text":"這是比較重要的一個環節比較重要因為這樣才能普遍讓所有的勞工享受工會的這個組織有工會的這個保護傘所以說我還是會建議應該思考在如何提升上位籌組工會的事業單位這邊如何來輔導他們來提升這個"},{"start":9869.901,"end":9895.514,"text":"公會整體的這個籌組率我想這是比較實際的但是如果如果修法當然有一些基本上我還當然絕對會有結社的自由我也認同這個觀點所以說我們政院的這種版本適度的來我也是可以理解但是我還是要回歸那個剛才說的那個"},{"start":9897.835,"end":9912.785,"text":"那個角度就是如何來提升還沒成立我們講辦法來提升這個這個他的籌組然後抱歉因為我不知道我要發言所以說也不知道臨時臨時想到實際上的狀況在雲林縣確實是這樣跟大家的狀況確實完全是相反的我們是以長壤公衛為主體的好以上發言感謝"},{"start":9924.929,"end":9939.605,"text":"你是劉建國委員給你推薦的所以一定要給你放眼因為立法院邀請的是有車馬費這個推薦的都沒有所以給你抱歉一下"},{"start":9943.007,"end":9969.807,"text":"我們學者專家委員遊說代表都發言完畢那在這個行政機關回應之前我做個初步結論就是說我個人主席我不做立場發言僅就今天所有的重要意見希望政府能夠重視尤其是專家學者還有業者的代表"},{"start":9970.714,"end":9977.724,"text":"那我們昨天委員會也有要求勞動部要辦一場自己辦一場公聽會嘛好那我們現在請勞動部來回應"},{"start":9987.513,"end":10001.922,"text":"主席剛才各位先進所提到的很多事情也會涉及到現在的實務運作是不是容許我先請我們的業務司司長先做整體性的一些說明我最後面再就勞動部的里長做一個總結"},{"start":10008.23,"end":10031.244,"text":"主席 各位與會代表 關係師來這邊做簡要的回應首先謝謝各位學者專家還有我們工會的先進提供很多寶貴意見那我這邊逐一簡單的回應第一個部分有關於包括幾個教師工會的理事長陳理事長 洪文斌理事長 林碩傑理事長關心的那個教師工會的一些成立的問題 不管是"},{"start":10032.225,"end":10057.691,"text":"可不可以在廠廠設立學校的企業工會或是會務架的問題乃至於教師可不可以行使罷工權的問題那這個題目我們確實在100年在修法的時候經過很努力的溝通跟這個協調協商那就現在的法治那這部分也會涉及到教育現場的一些很重大的變革跟學生的一些受教權有一些環環相扣的一些關鍵"},{"start":10058.971,"end":10074.337,"text":"所以這部分我們還是需要凝聚一些社會共識那這些題目我們會繼續跟教育部來進行一些溝通這是第一個部分第二個部分陳昭志委員有關心到是說大法官有很多提出一個不同意見書我們也應該要參佐"},{"start":10076.758,"end":10089.592,"text":"那確實整個大法官的不同意見書有好幾份那也有大法官是完全支持我們認為也沒有違反比例原則的也沒有違反法律保障原則的不過這部分都會讓我們提醒我們"},{"start":10090.816,"end":10110.693,"text":"在很多公會法修法上不管是同意跟不同意見的大法官的建議我們都列為我們將來在做公會法修正的時候的一些很重要的參考其實有關於那個王振旭委員一直提醒我們勞動部一定要不斷去強化公會的籌組率這一點我們都努力在"},{"start":10112.915,"end":10138.225,"text":"推進特別是我們仰賴很多我們工會先進像剛剛在座幾位工會先進非常努力的在我們的這個勞工這個部分協助他們抽出工會所以我們一方面透過勞動部的行政機關的努力的推動一方面我們借重上級工會跟既有工會的努力幫我們去促請我們勞工朋友抽出工會這部分我們會繼續加強"},{"start":10139.925,"end":10159.415,"text":"至於團體協商能力我們現在也在努力透過入場輔導入場協商甚至包括協商人才一些培訓這一點我們一定會繼續往下來做一些努力其實有關於我們台東企業公會抽組這個案子的溯源決定確實我們溯源會是一個獨立的決定的機關"},{"start":10163.877,"end":10177.996,"text":"那他在做溯源的決定的時候呢他會依據現有既有的相關的法規來做合法性的判斷那確實我們的信息的是在5月今年的5月18號以後他會失效所以"},{"start":10178.988,"end":10197.877,"text":"他現在在蘇院委員來他做依法判斷的時候呢他還是得要依據現在的施行系統的規定去做一個合法性的判斷所以才會做這樣一個最後駁回的一個決定那其實是有關於監察院的人權報告的提出的意見"},{"start":10199.217,"end":10211.122,"text":"健身安全報告的意見呢事實上在兩年前的憲法法庭判決的那個時候也有提出來成為大法官參酌的依據當初我們也有收到這樣一個"},{"start":10212.489,"end":10235.326,"text":"人權意見報告提出了一些要求事實上他所最主要提出來的幾點事實上不管是我們沒有事先審核工會主義我們對工會沒有歧視等等其實我們都有符合當然人權報告裡面提到幾個關鍵的地方譬如說他認為工會不能單一"},{"start":10236.227,"end":10253.884,"text":"那這個部分也涉及到一個很重大的立法政策的選擇就是說一家企業裡面是否允許很多家的工會同時的出現那不應該這樣一個限制那這些部分都是列為我們立法選擇政策為很重要的參考"},{"start":10255.475,"end":10279.851,"text":"接下來王一鳴委員有提的提案就是希望用我們大解法的那個條文作為廠長公會設立的依據那但是我得要稍微說明一下大解法課與那個企業要做通報主要的目的是因為你要解你要解雇那麼多人我希望你趕快通報我們儲管機關我們趕快把這些人用什麼方法讓他輸出讓他"},{"start":10282.411,"end":10294.03,"text":"找工作的機會速度快一點不要造成當地的就業機會的很大的一個衝擊那所以當初設定的是完全是客與雇主很重大的義務所以我們那個有強調叫經濟主體"},{"start":10296.448,"end":10312.024,"text":"那這樣的一個規範的目的跟我們現在有一個協商的目標的團結權的概念我們是認為不太一樣那兩個要把它移動過來可能還是要做比較周圍的考量會比較好"},{"start":10313.018,"end":10329.263,"text":"然後其實呢最後面呢我就再怎麼總結來跟各位來做個說明我知道各位先進這很多都是非常在供應界非常非常有很多貢獻的各位工會的各位領袖"},{"start":10330.765,"end":10347.885,"text":"我理解大家的想法都一致就希望我們工會更強大希望我們勞工朋友都保障工作權我也理解很多工會幹部一直不斷跟我講恨鐵不成鋼希望我們的大型工會更好但是我還是必須要說一個大型工會的經營其實不容易"},{"start":10348.866,"end":10370.553,"text":"那工會他其實不是什麼有具有法律公權力的一個機關他也是要必須接受我們的會員的考驗那我始終還是認為怎麼樣透過內部民主如果不行大家就透過我們的人去投票去改變而制度跟運作我認為還是兩個不同的角度"},{"start":10371.813,"end":10400.293,"text":"我比較能夠希望是團結權它是建立在一個所有工會籌組的最高最高的目標我實在是不太能夠理想像是說假設一個銀行工會有全台灣有100多個分行它都成立100個工會我不談會務價那個那是公司應該付的成本我完全支持可是當這樣的情形出現以後跟現在一個譬如說兆豐銀行工會"},{"start":10401.462,"end":10418.02,"text":"一個核酷工會有沒有哪個方式的選擇未來的實踐的想像會比較好因為有時候我們這種社會科學的立法他沒有辦法先實驗看看因為一實驗下去回不了頭那今天我們就站在一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":10419.617,"end":10437.046,"text":"轉利點我們大家去想一想立法政策的選擇我們需不需要一個團結一個大的工會如果他做的不好我們把他做改變可以還是我們讓所有30個人以上的只要你有一個稅級登記你只要一個工廠登記你就可以成立"},{"start":10438.735,"end":10463.413,"text":"那這樣一個選擇到底哪個比較好我們可以一起來努力再來多考慮而且我也認為應該考慮一下職方的思維當然大家也認為這是應該職方所付的成本但是我們所有的工會的目的就是要透過職方拿到更好的條件我們工會不是成立是一個福利性的在座很多工會的理事長你們都常常告訴我"},{"start":10464.295,"end":10488.738,"text":"工會不是一個辦福利而已你們都努力的在協商在座的工會理事長都在台灣的團體協商都扮演非常好的角色那現在就是我也要讓資方理解你將來要面對是100個工會的協商我們也要聽聽看資方的意見所以我將來我們辦的工會這個委員會有要求我辦工地會的時候呢我也會要求資方一起來表達一下"},{"start":10489.83,"end":10499.034,"text":"如果大家覺得這樣的路徑對台灣的工會運作有更好的推進對勞資協商有更好的願景我們一起來努力以上簡要的報告 謝謝謝謝市長"},{"start":10508.444,"end":10526.76,"text":"各位與會先進,剛才我們的市長因為在關係公會的部分有相當多的豐富經歷,所以我請他先做相關內容的說明。就我一個比較之前的後輩,雖然我是常務市長,所以比較之前的後輩,我的看法是這樣子。"},{"start":10527.621,"end":10546.729,"text":"今天不管在座先進委員、專家學者、社運前輩或是工會領袖大家各式各樣的發言都是為了勞工勞動權益出發我們都聲表尊敬每個人看到不同的面向所提出的批評、對勞動部的指教"},{"start":10548.59,"end":10570.336,"text":"不管是說我們是荒謬遮羞不武或如何我都覺得這可能是我們的努力不夠我們的說明不夠我們跟大家的溝通管道沒有非常的順暢或者是說明不夠那這部分甚至於未來政策面都還可以大家再持續的去討論那很精進所以剛才有提到我們將來還會再辦公聽會"},{"start":10572.657,"end":10587.807,"text":"那我也不當然認為說那個公聽會就是只單純for這個工會法這一次的修正其實工會運動是一個長遠的歷史但是也容許讓我做以下幾點表達"},{"start":10588.587,"end":10603.355,"text":"第一個就是說勞動部作為一個勞動主管機關絕對不可能會站在四方的立場去想事情那剛才我們的司長雖然講到說我們需要聽一下四方的意見無非是說當這些事情"},{"start":10603.955,"end":10633.212,"text":"在勞資關係上面如果我們對資方這意見也沒有做適度的溝通到最後很可能弄到最後勞資關係惡劣的結果那資本主義的市場底下勞工一定會是最後的受害對象所以我們希望在相關的修法裡面保障勞工的權利但是也能夠跟資方在如何促進這一邊維持一個可以處理的模式這個大概是"},{"start":10633.712,"end":10659.18,"text":"我們的一個想法那剛才大家有提到很多的指教那我簡單的做兩點的補充第一點就是說我們在思考勞動者的權益的時候大家都願意憲法的結社自由或團結權一般人的結社自由就是你情我願政府不應該過度干涉但是我們在工會的部分是勞動領域重要的權利"},{"start":10660.12,"end":10674.336,"text":"工會的部分是團結權的一部分同團結權協商權到爭議權是我們勞動法集體勞動法的重要的一環所以工會的組成會代表一定的法定的地位"},{"start":10675.077,"end":10692.035,"text":"一定的法定地位他就取得了相應的一些權利或相應的一些工具可以來跟僱主做溝通做對抗做相應的處理所以剛才王振旭委員也有提到我們在整個的勞動法制裡面有很多地方對於工會的部分"},{"start":10692.736,"end":10706.657,"text":"有相關的權利的部分在這裡做處理所以當我們在討論這些面向的時候不管是在講人數的組成不管是在講個數要不要做負數不管是在講要不要匯物價"},{"start":10707.639,"end":10731.313,"text":"或者說要不要有爭議權 爭議權要不要有若干的限制那我要跟各位報告 這個都是整體面 大家需要集體的其實管理去思考沒有辦法單純從單一的問題直接去切入去做處理我舉一百年那個勞動三法修法為例當時教師為什麼主公會會說應該"},{"start":10733.954,"end":10749.077,"text":"一個縣市組一個而沒有辦法到每個學校去組因為台灣的學校有大有小小的學校如果教師組工會那依照我們對會務價的理解或相應的理解那這個他第一個他在"},{"start":10750.438,"end":10766.626,"text":"國小義務教育的國家的義務稅型上面會產生一定的影響第二個他要協商的對象是校長嗎校長其實也是一個受僱者所以當時的理想像就是說應該是跟縣市教育局來做一個對口"},{"start":10767.146,"end":10794.607,"text":"我的意思並沒有要辯解或解釋但我只是在告訴說很多事情當時在做討論的時候立法政策或者是立法的那個體系它有一定的脈絡有些東西是折衝的結果有些東西是制度的使然像剛才大家所講的警校公務員組工會也是一樣從勞動部的角度而言我們希望所有的工作者不只是受雇勞工或都應該要有"},{"start":10796.108,"end":10812.17,"text":"團結權都應該要受到保障但是在目前的憲政分立底下他就是在考試院的全責範圍他們也願意在考試院的體制去做處理勞動部也願意協助他在那一邊把他拉到跟我們這邊相對比較歧異的地步"},{"start":10812.831,"end":10830.57,"text":"這個大概我只能說有關於相關的政策其實這部分我們會持續的傾聽大家意見來做溝通來做努力但是很多議題他可能必須要一起來做考量這第一點那第二點回到今天的主題其實剛才也有很多先進在指教說大館會議說你危險"},{"start":10832.712,"end":10848.749,"text":"你是不是應該要廢止或者說大法官說你抵觸憲法或者是其他但是剛才其實專家學者也有跟各位報告大法官會議其實他很明顯的很確定的講"},{"start":10849.85,"end":10869.367,"text":"他就這個公衛法適應細則他在比例原則上面他認為是OK的但是他認為他違反了法律保留原則然後兩年限期失效也因為這個原因我們優先處理的這個議題把既有的法律秩序帶到母法裡面來符合大法官會議的規定"},{"start":10871.308,"end":10884.918,"text":"剛才大家也提到很多包括監察院人權委員會專家的鑑定或法庭之友甚至於我要跟各位報告其實如果各位去仔細看大綱會議有非常多的大綱"},{"start":10886.159,"end":10901.771,"text":"協同意見書有不同意見書有部分協同不同部分不同意見書每一份都值得我們細細的來思考現在的少數意見不代表將來不會變成主流意見但是最勞動部做一個行政部門要依法行政結果憲法法庭認為他"},{"start":10903.812,"end":10922.487,"text":"違反法律保留原則有限期失效的狀況底下我們優先要處理這個議題至於裡面大家所指教的各方的意見其實都沒有對錯問題而是都值得我們來做政策面的討論和思考但我只是在強調說從勞動部的角度我們在考慮這些問題的時候不會只"},{"start":10926.05,"end":10946.507,"text":"一個問題一個問題去看因為單一問題去看會產生很多連動的狀況比如說假設我們在勞基法那一邊在工會的權利裡面我們要拜託工會朋友給我們很多的把關可是各位也知道大官對這件事情也有很多不同的意見我們也在"},{"start":10947.808,"end":10963.43,"text":"看看要怎麼樣子整體面的去做處理所以我還是最重要這樣跟各位報告勞動部因應大官這樣一個違憲的案子我們針對他判決違憲的意旨在有限的時間先做了這樣一個修法"},{"start":10963.891,"end":10987.519,"text":"那至於其他的大家所指教的問題有些是過去以來一直都有說明那有些東西也許我們可以大家再更open mind一點看看用什麼方式或整體性的來做處理但就勞動部的角度而言我個人還是覺得說我們必須整體面就勞動三權的行使然後整個的相應的配套做去做完整的考量包括說"},{"start":10989.139,"end":11006.134,"text":"是不是人數 因為其實單純人數也有要求多的也有要求少的 個數這個東西包括他的法定職長跟地位都是需要一體整體性的去考量我還是從勞動部的角度再次感謝各位先進過去這段時間對勞動部的批評和指教"},{"start":11010.538,"end":11024.126,"text":"有一些可以討論的更仔細或溝通的更順利的地方我們也不願意再持續傾聽大家的聲音那未來在整個勞動的政策或未來立法的路徑的選擇和形塑上面再跟大家一起努力謝謝"},{"start":11033.274,"end":11060.652,"text":"我想這個法要修可能有它的急迫性你再辦一個公聽會後我想大家還是要考慮怎麼來修那六之一嘛他用六之一把實行細則要達到法律的位階當然大家有不同的意見我是心臟外科醫生王振旭是腫瘤科醫生我們醫療的這一塊是"},{"start":11063.448,"end":11083.063,"text":"公會 公司的公還有協會 還有學會學運的學 喔 那個更亂不爽又去組一個 不爽又組一個每一天到晚在繳 繳會會 繳不完突然間要碰一下就知道出來了我參加才有20個會所以 喔 真是人啊所以你如果像這樣 知道一大堆"},{"start":11090.799,"end":11115.91,"text":"大家手都一個火,昨天大家都高情高悲,好嘛六天斷不掉啦最後一個我講我們COVID-19的時候,三年讓台灣的重大打擊那這次關稅也是重大打擊COVID-19那三年,我們勞工朋友勞動部有推一個,我要跟他們肯定推一個就是勞工有十萬塊銀行救急,不用離席"},{"start":11117.423,"end":11121.007,"text":"就用中央電子資金來貼利息150萬的都可以去簽10萬塊的,不過只有1500多億1500多億3年,要行,但是那些利息是"},{"start":11134.002,"end":11144.47,"text":"現在我們林基金來付,付30多億,所以洛陽坡也是很認真在替我們的勞工所以這個順時萬變,我們的產業有那麼的堅強,我看起來是蠻脆弱的蠻沒有韌性的啦,所以不太簡單,所以大家還是要和諧啦,看要怎麼做"},{"start":11155.185,"end":11183.133,"text":"好 那我們做以下結論依據立法院之前刑事法規定委員會應提出公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見跟書面的資料匯編成冊 分送給本院的全體委員及與會的政府機關代表寫者專家遊說代表參閱"},{"start":11185.799,"end":11193.645,"text":"今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見我們這一次的公聽會到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}