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堆到盡量塞 盡量滿可是你們完全忽略了物理跟化學的極限這簡直是在各個地方堆置大型的生化炸彈啊為什麼呢"},{"start":154.634,"end":178.991,"text":"你們就一直堆可是你知道耗氧發酵跟豔氧發酵並存你上面的堆製在表層的是耗氧這個分解產生熱量可是在底層的因為缺氧進行了豔氧分解一定勢必會產生早氣再來講蓄熱效應當堆製的高度過高你們這個堆製最高幾米這個應該有到十幾米左右"},{"start":183.01,"end":200.869,"text":"20米 20米所以在這裡是堆到四層樓 五層 六層樓 七層樓高堆那麼高 它內部的熱量無法散發溫度會持續飆升 蓄熱效應第三 自然點"},{"start":202.43,"end":224.797,"text":"當內部的溫度超過80度C甚至更高而且夾碗的濃度達高到爆炸的下陷一旦接觸到空氣或因為塌陷產生火花就會瞬間的引爆就一定勢必會燒起來所以我們你會覺得說就是這樣子堆啊保庭有感覺就是這樣堆嗎 是嗎"},{"start":228.894,"end":242.922,"text":"這個包括我有去看過一些國家的最近去看的其實他們都有一定的處理的做法而且我也觀察到不會臭不會臭然後而且他復土的程序都做得很完整我知道災禍廢棄物是很臨時的"},{"start":245.283,"end":261.897,"text":"但是我們從制度面整個政府從過去到現在從來沒有在災害的基礎上學到教訓不斷的累積教訓然後得到一套指引和方法我現在跟你講日本環境省發布的災害廢棄物的對策指引我也跟你講過了"},{"start":263.118,"end":274.384,"text":"災害廢棄物的對策指針針對臨時堆置場人家制定了非常細緻的技術規範這個指引的核心精神像在這個災害廢棄物他就講不是怎麼堆而他的核心精神就是要防止他怎麼防止他燒起來"},{"start":284.429,"end":303.717,"text":"所以也只去研究日本環境省的技術文件台灣 你們都沒有去研究台灣政府 我跟你們講了幾個月了也沒有去看 也沒有研究阿蘇丁你有看嗎 你有研究嗎台灣跟日本避開我們缺少的三大關鍵管理技術是什麼"},{"start":305.407,"end":330.212,"text":"你有沒有去看那份執行 你就不知道 我就跟你說了在這個執行上就跟你說了 叫你去看有沒有看過委員我們現在有內部在座討論討論了什麼就是我們會訂定我們的災害護照我現在說台灣缺少的跟日本這個管理執行缺少了三大關鍵的管理技術是什麼 你有沒有想法"},{"start":333.041,"end":356.997,"text":"呃 請委員指導你都沒有啦 你說話中間都沒有記住因為你上次跟我說了之後 我有交代他們我們要開始去研議這個東西如果有去研議這麼長久了 臉看都沒看啊 我跟你講 我直接跟你講日本的指引明確的指出 為了防止火災佔置場的堆置必須遵守物理極限不能夠因為垃圾多就無限的堆高"},{"start":357.978,"end":383.573,"text":"他們的精神就是怎麼防止它燒起來嘛那你就要去檢視第一個高度的限制日本可燃性廢棄物的堆置高度嚴格限制在幾公尺以下 你知道嗎蘇丁你知道嗎 保定不知道這是藍面的蘇丁你知道日本嚴格限制在堆置幾公尺以下嗎我們一般的堆置是在五公尺日本就是說五公尺"},{"start":384.232,"end":407.149,"text":"如果沒有經過破碎的修繭樹枝甚至建議要低到3公尺理想值是2公尺科學的理由是因為超過5公尺堆體內部會發熱速度將大於表面的散熱速度導致熱量急劇的升高累積蓄熱那台灣的現況你們這個烏樹林占智場"},{"start":410.912,"end":428.548,"text":"20米20公尺六七層樓高新峰也埋藏的堆積也是在這種高度的熱力學上注定必然一定會發生自然這個不是意外不是不可抗拒的不是是必然的 必然的"},{"start":429.288,"end":442.722,"text":"這是管理的問題啊第二個這個物理的極限第二個面積跟體積的極限日本規範單一一塊區塊的底面積不得超過200平方公尺大概60幾平"},{"start":444.364,"end":465.753,"text":"而且單一堆體的體積要控制在2000立方公尺以內原因是因為限制燃燒的量體確保火災萬一真的發生了消防的水柱要可以立刻噴灑到堆體的中心而且怪手可以在短時間內將火源挖出你看你們這幾天剛才洩露的那些硬品觸目驚心"},{"start":472.711,"end":498.185,"text":"台灣的現象就是整片連綿不斷的垃圾長城一旦燒起來根本沒有辦法斷絕火路沒有 你們毫無規範這個絕對不是不可抗拒的自然現象這個是人為不當的管理因為政府毫無管理的機制 毫無管理"},{"start":499.105,"end":505.709,"text":"第三這個在物理的極限裡面還有一個叫距離原則日本規範一堆和一堆之間要保留兩公尺以上的防火區隔理由就是防止輻射熱導致火勢跳燒並作為緊急時重機具的作業通道和消防車的行進路線而台灣呢你看這個台南火災堆置堆置那麼滿"},{"start":526.36,"end":542.252,"text":"消防車只能在遠遠的噴水也噴不到中心 堆點的中心然後那麼高也噴不到下面怪手也沒辦法進去開闢防火巷這個完全缺乏隔離距離的這個後果所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":544.726,"end":549.149,"text":"這個還是物理上的限制日本還怎麼做主動式的監測和排氣的機制佔自償喔平平都是災害廢棄物的佔自償而已喔他們在氣體排放在早氣的監測和排放他們怎麼規定呢日本規定在堆體的中間要先預埋塞多孔管像瓦斯透氣管"},{"start":570.802,"end":579.159,"text":"讓內部的甲烷和發酵的熱氣能夠導出避免累積達到這個爆炸的下限我們都沒辦法 什麼沒辦法"},{"start":582.605,"end":611.804,"text":"因為沒有規範中央沒有指引地方也不用做溫度的監測日本必須在管理單位必須定期測量堆體深層的溫度他的指引特別提到堆體深層的溫度往往比氣溫滯後一兩個月才達到高峰所以他會到10月才會反映到8月的熱度他會往後遞延"},{"start":612.825,"end":636.061,"text":"所以必須要長期監測 如果測得到一氧化碳的濃度超過10ppmv就視為是內部悶燒的危險訊號我們台灣做什麼 什麼都沒做然後等到冒煙燒起來 聞到臭味 然後再來處理所以台灣這個方法有弄好嗎 完全落後太多"},{"start":637.202,"end":663.711,"text":"那他們日本在於這個預防火災的熱跟氣上面他還有第三個做法他們一旦監測到溫度異常的升高就馬上要出動重機具去翻堆將內部熱料翻出散熱而且他們指引建議一個數個禮拜至少要翻堆一次不可以長期靜置你這個地方要靜置多久你剛剛講明年才會解決對吧"},{"start":666.432,"end":684.238,"text":"這樣子也沒有翻堆對照日本就知道說我們真的是落後太多更不要講我上一次的質詢已經講過的他們這個指引是在未以籌謀防範還沒發生的時候各個地方就要預先選址"},{"start":685.658,"end":710.193,"text":"日本要求市挺村在平時就必須依照這個災害廢棄物的處理計畫選定候選的用地包括要遠離住宅區 地址要穩固具備防止地下水污染設施蛤 蛤 阿爛咧 咱現在只有具備防止污染地下水設施會設備嗎 有不設防水布嗎 有沒有"},{"start":712.13,"end":731.789,"text":"這個沒有然後他講前端要分類進入戰制場以前必須區分隔成金屬電氣電池瓦斯罐和可燃廢氣物這種都要分開因為你電池瓦斯罐廢氣的電氣可能都會引燃周邊的木材或塑膠"},{"start":733.277,"end":758.569,"text":"我們其實都混在一起啦雖然你們說這個石棉一堆廢棄土石方一堆這比較容易看得到但垃圾廢棄樹枝尤其是垃圾垃圾上面有沒有電池有沒有不知道有沒有分類沒有所以把這種潛在的火種電池啦打火機啦跟燃料枯枝啦泡棉啦垃圾打包在一起風險就是這麼高"},{"start":760.259,"end":784.32,"text":"所以我們在這裡我真的是語重心長全台灣一共有幾處的災害廢棄物佔據場正在運作 部長大概災害廢棄物災害廢棄物現在台南有幾座幾座台南有三座吧三座蘇町自己都不知道 寶町真的不知道花蓮有兩座"},{"start":787.752,"end":788.615,"text":"這一年來風災後新啟用的戰製廠有幾處"},{"start":794.161,"end":804.026,"text":"也不知道 你看什麼都不知道那個您說的其實上次前兩次質詢我都有聽在這個裡面我問這個最簡單 你書長要知道戰智場有幾位你也不知道災害廢棄物現在戰智正在運作的有幾個場子你不知道書長你很漏氣 這篇書竟然不及格 我覺得很不該說的 還沒還沒好"},{"start":820.1,"end":837.933,"text":"目前對製的物品品的類別比例怎麼用就是說純風災的這個倒木還是有多少民生垃圾還是有多少的營建土石方的廢棄物比例是怎麼樣每一個站置場比例是怎麼樣比例要怎麼樣才能知道說這個整個預防火源火燒起來啊"},{"start":847.231,"end":866.747,"text":"有多少廠子具備了防止地下水污染的阻隔設施有沒有 全部都沒有喔 完全都沒有喔是不是 全部都沒有有多少廠子有這個溫度監測的機制全部都沒有 完全都沒有 站制的都沒有不是站制的就有嗎"},{"start":871.126,"end":892.703,"text":"那現在日本環境省明確規定規範高度戰制的高度5公尺間隔2公尺你有沒有辦法好這樣講好了有沒有辦法在最短的時間裡面你們可以制定出一個台灣版的災害廢棄物戰制場的防災安全指引有沒有可能一個月"},{"start":900.003,"end":929.543,"text":"包委員 那個因為我們是進行中我們是不是兩個月之內把它訂出來好 災害廢棄物 戰事場 防災安全指引那要把下列的項目列為強制查核項目第一堆置高度的上限5公尺強制防火間隔距離2公尺定期每週深層溫度監測如果地方政府違反指引導致火災中央是否有相對應的懲處或補助扣減的機制也要去研議 可以嗎"},{"start":930.472,"end":958.274,"text":"可以好 那我接下來跟部長講說因為你說我質詢了你們去看看了以後沒有訂出來 也是不好所以災害廢棄物我們的處理絕對不能夠繼續抱著且戰且走的心態應該要去積極的參考日本的災害廢棄物的對策指引而且長期要研議 要去擬定災害廢棄物戰制設置和管理的技術規範"},{"start":959.935,"end":980.402,"text":"不能夠再這樣子永遠萬年的以不變應萬變就讓它稍稍的就剛好先廢棄 不用處理不用再進焚化爐直接入不用再勞煩焚化爐了啦直接入天焚燒啦 我也懷疑說你是不是跳槓要這樣讓它稍稍的都不用再改過是不是這樣比較方便是不是這樣"},{"start":983.888,"end":991.882,"text":"不是啦把廢棄物堆置到這個等排隊進焚化爐還要花一年的時間啊這張來燒一燒就燒一半以上啊都不用進焚化爐啊這樣是不是比較方便"},{"start":996.701,"end":1007.091,"text":"不會啦 不會這樣做我哪有這種感覺的感覺沒有啦沒有啦希望沒有啦我們會來改進啦好 我說的長期災害廢棄物戰車場設置案管理技術規格半年內你出來兩個月內災害廢棄物戰車場的防災安全指引兩個月內訂出來"},{"start":1017.54,"end":1040.977,"text":"因為我知道日本常遇到大型地震災害廢棄物的處理我們會再來評估說實際上去了解他們到底怎麼做的因為有時候日本寫的跟他們不是只有地震型的他們也有很多複合式的他們複合式的而我們剛好恰巧今年未來極端氣候下未來不知道"},{"start":1041.798,"end":1063.395,"text":"就刚好这么严重这么多然后需要这么多的战志场而我们的战志场连一个防水这个不要污染地下水的这个基本设施都没有更不要讲其他的这个灾害还为了战志引起其他更大的环境灾害是这样子是不对的是所以两个月跟六个月啊好可以谢谢来接下来"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}