{"error":false,"id":["165885"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165885,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165885","日期":"2025-11-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-15-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-26T10:44:59+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-26T10:54:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f5b16bee5fdcc5c1643bb72c18dc33c723d8a9895dd800e979564efc6fe1044b75f58bd84367980c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:44:59 - 10:54:05","會議時間":"2025-11-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查土地法：(一)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等22人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員傅崐萁等 17 人擬具「土地法第一百九十五條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員賴士葆等 27 人擬具「土地法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員陳超明等 16人擬具「土地法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查原住民身分法：(一)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民身分法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(四)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「原住民身分法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「原住民身分法刪除第十一條條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案。(七)委員黃仁等19人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員黃仁等18人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案。【原住民身分法第(七)及第(八)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】【11月26日及27日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.48971875,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.016593750000002,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.09159375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":20.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.12471875,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.419093750000002,"end":28.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.051593750000002,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.83971875,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.01096875,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.752843750000004,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.06909375,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.66596875,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.42409375000001,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.92971875,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.53596875000001,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.12659375000001,"end":90.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.22784375,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.37971875000001,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.95346875,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.59034375,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.19284375000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.95471875000001,"end":153.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.00471875000001,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.62284375000002,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.01471875000001,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.09909375,"end":158.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.86159375,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":171.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.65284375000002,"end":182.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.66909375,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.58784375000002,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.25846875000002,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.96221875,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.93221875,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.34846875000002,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.26346875000002,"end":219.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.45659375000002,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.66284375,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.42221875,"end":227.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.90659375,"end":229.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.32846875,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.34534375,"end":229.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.36221875,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.78784375,"end":233.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.09846875000002,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.12284375000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.28284375,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.46721875000003,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.42909375,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.34034375000005,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.43221875,"end":267.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.34221875000003,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.88221875,"end":277.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.47659375,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.55159375,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.07846875,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.64284375,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.67659375,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.92971875,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.97596875,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.69596875,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.36721875,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34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董事長有請有請董事長市長早安這個土地法97條土地法在民國89年做文字上的修正之後有沒有還有沒有任何修正的跡象沒有對不對那上一次他制定的時候是民國35年是不是有些不合時宜"},{"start":36.601,"end":52.611,"text":"我們要看那個相關的一些規範有些地方已經不合時宜在不能使用有些地方我們還是土地的狀況還是類似的所以我們可能還是繼續沿用這樣好 今天有委員提出土地法的修法其實就是點出了它不合時宜這件事我舉一個例子"},{"start":53.611,"end":80.311,"text":"這個土地法理論上來講應該是一個基本法律的概念嘛就是比較大不投的法案但很多奇怪的法律有排除適用比如說住宅法第25條涉災租金不受土地法限制租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例租賃專法第6條排除適用土地法國有財產法第43條排除適用土地法不動產證券化條例第24條及第34條之一排除不動產投資跟資產信託的租金限制反正"},{"start":84.298,"end":87.266,"text":"12345678910幾個法律啊都排除了土地法97條的這樣子的一個適用"},{"start":89.611,"end":117.922,"text":"市長原因是什麼我想因為時代的不同過去我們土地第二個比方說像剛才談到的土地證券的部分類似是過去這10年來台灣全球最大的土地的運作的模式那這樣子一個運作的模式在當前從民國35年所制定法案到現在當然是不合時宜所以它必須要被抬起所以確實不合時宜也有修正必要我想市長應該不會反對這件事但修正的時候到底往哪一個方向其實是更值得大家來做"},{"start":118.622,"end":140.721,"text":"深入討論的嘛現在 賴志寶委員提的 獨立條97條的修正他其實 初衷其實也蠻明顯的我覺得絕對是本於善意也就是不希望再出現所謂的惡意漲租啊這樣一個狀況希望可以保障相對有租屋需求的這些人不要讓房客處於弱勢這當然是一個很棒的民生法案那但實務上的節奏和法律內涵這希望花一點時間跟"},{"start":141.782,"end":153.215,"text":"董事長來做一下探討這我想大家都不反對這個不合時宜的法規要做合理的修正跟討論那請問現在以內政部的立場來講如果要修正相關的法條的話你們希望的狀況是什麼"},{"start":154.676,"end":158.697,"text":"我們目前還是針對租賃條例來做修正租賃條例也感謝貴會在上個禮拜我們舉行了相關的公聽會也非常感謝委員特別來場聆聽給我們很多的指導我想整個的租賃條例的修正我們大概是幾個方向除了我們限制整個的相關的漲幅跟續租權"},{"start":178.763,"end":195.15,"text":"那最重要的是我們要保障租賃雙方的所有的權利的對等那所以我們增訂了對於不良房東不良房客相關的處分那更重要的事情是我們希望能夠跟那個司法院合作將公證權公證的部分把它搶好"},{"start":196.11,"end":221.937,"text":"不是 因為我們還是回到今天我們討論的主體是土地法97條嘛因為既然它不核十一那它必然有修正的必要嘛但它修正的方向就很重要也就是說我要讓它核十一的時候我應該是要對齊當下的需求嘛那從對齊當下需求的想法還是說你土地法要重新有更符合時下需求的修正方式然後讓它重新取得主導地位它大概是這兩條路嘛以內政部的立場來講你覺得修法的方向應該是朝向"},{"start":222.957,"end":244.739,"text":"對其現行這些排除適用的邏輯就好還是說我要重新確保它的主體性請 沒關係第一個如果單純只有修97條的部分有關於租金契約權跟租金管制的部分可能會有點不足因為還有相關的配套因為整個一個租金的管制其實對於市場會有一些相關的影響那如果沒有相關的配套如果單純"},{"start":245.74,"end":260.15,"text":"只有處理這一條可能還是會對於市場會有衝擊所以我們是會建議從租賃條例裡面來做所以你們其實希望先修租賃條例嘛那很好那租賃條例現在有沒有明確的時間表從上一次的公聽會到現在對不對你在收集意見的階段那具體來講因為"},{"start":261.711,"end":289.357,"text":"賴委員提這個的初衷是希望這個不要被惡意漲租嘛幾星洞店是要保障租客的權益嘛 對不對那你們現在 現在大家的方向其實都是一致的也就是說租賃條例要做一定的調整跟修正但是如果沒有具體的時間會不會一直空轉呢 對不對所以這個東西才會被排上排上今天的議程來做提早討論嘛那現在來講我們就回到租賃條例如果內政部希望透過修租賃條例的方式可以解決徹底解決這個問題的話那請問相關的時間表現在部裡面有打算嗎"},{"start":290.137,"end":311.592,"text":"有 我們還是緊述會送到因為我們還要先報行政院我們會緊述報行政院之後趕快送進大會對啊 那就是這樣嘛你的流程大家都很清楚內部討論 收集意見完之後報行政院 同意之後送到立法院附會討論對不對但每次都是報行政院這一關它可長可短啊比如說行政區劃法對不對我們從第一會已經報到最後結果還是"},{"start":313.153,"end":331.812,"text":"國會先行嘛 對不對那當然最後也有一個圓滿的結果那我覺得也各種方法都可以嘗試但我總希望我們的政府在談修正法令的時候他有個明確的時間表嘛比如說這個會期結束前他一定會通過行政院的程序可能第五會期大家會進入注定條例內容的討論在立法院有辦法給出比較明確的時間表嗎"},{"start":332.732,"end":348.18,"text":"我們目前大概在跟行政院說商看看如果可以的話我們當然希望能夠在這個會期結束前我們把它送進來但是我們還是要看行政院的立場第二是針對內容的部分我們可以做提早討論其實租賃專訪我們第一會期就討論過"},{"start":349.261,"end":371.835,"text":"對不對 第一會期討論的時候本席的版本其實早就放在那邊 就是租屋市場透明的而且我還寫得還蠻保守的 就先從包租貸款這一部分一起透明那時候大家講說 喔 這樣子會造成租金的提早上漲啊房東們會超前部署啊 可能會影響市場價格 講得壓力很大那現在啊 這行政院提出來講說要限制租金漲跌幅 會不會出現一樣的問題啊"},{"start":373.486,"end":398.031,"text":"我剛才也跟委員會報告過就是說我們有了解到這樣的狀況所以我們大概基本上朝兩個方向我們也跟財政部協商大概第一個就是說我們會鼓勵公益房東的出現也就是說我們透過稅優的方式鼓勵更多人加入公益房東這都是既有的機制沒有錯那第二個就是說我們會透過相關的稅率的方式將91萬的空餘屋我們把它合理釋出"},{"start":399.271,"end":415.664,"text":"那這些前提條件因為現在內政部的租賃專法當然就很多正版意見都有其實我們都有感受到嘛這個房東也擔心租賃業者也擔心房客也沒有信心現在狀況是有點這樣所以當然要經過更充分的討論但我本席認為核心的概念還是透明啊"},{"start":416.084,"end":430.494,"text":"因為誰能夠保證在現在這種不透明的狀況大家可以私底下交易的情況即便你有了租賃專法我限制房租漲跌幅他會不會表面上給你一套私底下大家現金交易有沒有可能發生這種事應該是有可能吧"},{"start":431.417,"end":452.478,"text":"我想这个我们从过去住宅实价登录的过程它其实需要一个一段时间那租赁条例的修正之后我们在租金市场上所以我们部长会逐步就是说我们先透过区域的相关的租金的资讯的公布我们透过这样的方式逐步逐步来做整体的资讯的透明化"},{"start":452.878,"end":473.328,"text":"我想事情是漸進的發生大家會比較習慣我一下冒然的出現很多東西的時候其實那個黑市的存在反而會更大對沒錯你講的真好所以我就是在想這個事所以我之前我特別要藉今天的題目來去問租賃專法的修訂進度就是如此即便是這個租賃專法以內政部現在提出來版本它其實是大幅修正的狀態"},{"start":474.128,"end":486.844,"text":"大幅修正的時候其實會遇到很多很多的阻力那我本身就建議你其實可以分階段走啊比如說我們怎麼先來完整的落實租市場透明化我再來看看市場的反應來做後續比如說我要不要加漲列幅限制我要不要把這些"},{"start":487.845,"end":503.29,"text":"這比較有爭議的或者是壓力比較大的來做改革跟突破我覺得至少要穩步向前但如果今天都沒有聽到的時候那大家就會我有的想說修土地法有的想說修住宅法有的想說那到了最後其實到了最後都要卡那個地方我覺得是不好所以我希望董事今天藉著這一點點時間趕快把"},{"start":505.191,"end":528.355,"text":"租賃市場專法的具體的時間表你要回覆給內政委員會第二個在租賃專法修正的這些重大項目裡面哪一些是比較容易的或許我們可以先走啊我覺得這不失為一個辦法嘛漸進式的來完成市場的透明然後再進入到合理的管制並且兼顧雙方的利益我覺得這才是大家到最後會達成共識的一個方向但我覺得可以分步先走"},{"start":528.735,"end":537.685,"text":"而且不要因為大陸的法案很多意見就卡在那個地方可以嗎這是本期的一些建議啦謝謝委員的建議我們會照委員的建議我們逐步逐步往前推進好 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員那牛許廷提到相關修法的時間表也請來跟我們"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}