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那接下來我們就直接請我們衛福部的部長來作為報告"},{"start":1933.138,"end":1950.007,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天答應第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸知就面對國際經貿情勢順變或國如何應應並確保藥品、醫療器材"},{"start":1955.722,"end":1972.656,"text":"等各面向供应正常保障国人权益进行专题报告进行各位委员不吝会议指教全球经贸情势正处于快速变革之际面对全球经贸动荡恐造成药品及医疗器材供应之冲击"},{"start":1973.277,"end":1991.704,"text":"本部已建構相關應用機制措施以確保藥品及醫療器材穩定供應為確保藥品及醫材之供應穩定首先為預防及應用藥品及醫材供應不止之情形化生本部透過既有之通報處理機制"},{"start":1994.212,"end":2003.511,"text":"得及時進行短期情形評估並啟動應應措施保障民眾醫療權益第二本部已制定必要"},{"start":2004.861,"end":2029.098,"text":"必要藥品及必要醫材清單將持續滾動式調整產品清單內容強化藥商預先通報之責任及應變措施第三主動提升我國藥品及醫材供應鏈韌性鼓勵者增加原料來源及儲備以避免國內廠商應單一來源供應異常而過度集中影響供應鏈"},{"start":2031.48,"end":2059.38,"text":"並透過專業輔導及加速審查等方式協助業者儘速取得許可證強化國內自主供應韌性最後本部將持續主動監控藥品及依採國外短缺警訊及國內臨床需求預先盤點整備品及其原物料的庫存以確保供應鏈之穩定"},{"start":2061.521,"end":2077.06,"text":"為確保藥品及醫材之合理價格本部確實盤點藥品清單適時調整藥價鼓勵並支持賢明藥及生物相似性藥之使用支持新藥在地製造"},{"start":2078.081,"end":2097.334,"text":"加強我國製藥韌性確保藥品供應維持合理要價持續推動健保藥品政策改革修法以獎勵國內外藥商在國內製造國內藥廠投入資源及擴充生產量能如果一定條件則製藥品"},{"start":2098.915,"end":2118.033,"text":"價格不予調整達到鼓勵在地製造強化藥品公用韌性保障合理藥品價格等三大目的自有國公會疫苗抗病毒藥品節電試劑以儀器及防疫物質等供應及價格針對已簽訂合約之產品經評估占有立即影響"},{"start":2123.158,"end":2148.493,"text":"因應國際經貿情勢順變,本部將持續強化藥品及醫材供應鏈韌性以確保藥品及醫材之穩定供應,保障國人健康潛力本部曾答應各位委員之指教及監督,在此靜置謝陳,並期各位委員繼續予以支持,謝謝好,謝謝部長的報告"},{"start":2150.407,"end":2178.837,"text":"那接下來呃有關於本次會議各項書面資料列均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始來做詢答作為下宣告本會委員詢答時間為6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止歡迎登記委員如果順便質詢請於稍微前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上時間11點30分處理臨時提案10點半截止收件然後呃現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員來做詢答"},{"start":2186.954,"end":2189.615,"text":"主席麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員長部長早上現在台灣我覺得我們長期處在一種地緣政治的風險當中而且現在因為我們的物質缺乏導致我們很仰賴進口的貿易"},{"start":2211.59,"end":2230.296,"text":"所以完善的藥品供應鏈的韌性跟降低我們的缺藥危機本來就事實上是台灣一直要固守的那個碉堡但這個堡壘當下受到美國關稅的政策的一個衝擊呢那所以就會引發一些問題藥品供應鏈有關我們國家安全"},{"start":2237.877,"end":2265.522,"text":"藥品當下受到我們的關稅豁免的確現在當時是現在是此時此刻這樣可是兩個月內將以我們的獨立關稅的項目來徵收關稅所以我們可以預期藥品不可能排除在國際關稅的競爭之外結果將引發藥品的價格波動所以當然目前整個也會去衝擊到我們的藥品的供應鏈所以可能會造成國產藥品的出口受阻和進口要價"},{"start":2266.909,"end":2288.157,"text":"那個可能會比較貴還有我們的藥品的供應呢也會產生新藥退出台灣市場而且國產藥事實上是會缺乏原料藥所以想問部長這是攸關我們國家藥品供應鏈的事也是整個藥醫界所關注的大事衛福部不能沒有對策你這邊要怎麼應對好謝謝委員的詢問那我想我們"},{"start":2292.406,"end":2310.458,"text":"足夠的藥品、醫材、相關的一個物品的確是對保護我們全國人民健康非常重要的事情所以這個事情是平常我們就在做的事情因為因應不時之需所以我們在藥品方面我們當然第一個會有"},{"start":2317.452,"end":2339.479,"text":"會列出一個藥品的必要清單那當然在藥事法也有規定如果在六個月當中可能會將來會切法六個月應該要在六個月前就應該要告知我們來做應應的一個前瞻性的處理那第二個當然就是如果藥品短缺有一個通報平台"},{"start":2340.419,"end":2358.29,"text":"那這個平台也能夠隨時來營營第三個當然我們有更不管是在食藥署這邊或是在健保署因為大部分的藥物都是健保署所以那個所以如果說它的成本真的有增加"},{"start":2359.35,"end":2375.496,"text":"那麼當然可以提報它的成本來申請然後我們有一個公式來做一個調整這些機制其實過去都已經進行得很順暢那目前來講並沒有對這個藥品直接的衝擊"},{"start":2379.442,"end":2390.731,"text":"當然我們覺得我們一定要非常的小心預先來準備那至於說如果可以的話是不是我們兩位署長有沒有要補充的請我們食藥署的江署長做簡要的補充一下"},{"start":2396.309,"end":2417.615,"text":"食藥署這邊做我們做檢要補充我們做了整體的盤點因為以食藥署就是藥物供給跟藥物有效性跟安全性是我們最主要的一個前提所以美國的衝擊這一次我們其實對於進口跟國內的輸入的藥大概是佔27%其中美國的部分呢其實佔1.86%我們用藥證來講總共216下"},{"start":2421.596,"end":2450.721,"text":"整體我覺得衝擊特別特別明顯的會是在所謂他在專利期內的有60張看起來是佔0.5%那其中我們特別特別要去注意的是因為美國進來的幾項我們會提早因應也跟健保署這邊做很好的溝通包含我們的血液的製劑然後抗腫瘤的藥物神經疾病的用藥那我們也有看到有少部分是罕見疾病的部分那這部分我們也充分的溝通"},{"start":2451.301,"end":2474.854,"text":"因為現在所謂的關稅的衝擊的部分就如部長剛才提到的因為還沒有明顯的變動雙方都是零關稅的對於這個藥因為健康的部分藥物的部分值得高的規格跟高的高度因此就互相是豁免了相關的關稅所以因此我們好 等一下我覺得再讓署長再做補充因為下一頁也是剛剛講的零關稅"},{"start":2476.194,"end":2493.249,"text":"所以台灣健保的那個收窄的藥品大概一萬四千多項其中從美國進口的藥品品項大概一百七十七項一年占我們健保藥費的支出大概十%左右所以台灣藥品的超過六成都是來自國外"},{"start":2493.829,"end":2520.99,"text":"所以對藥價跟供應波動非常的敏感所以這次波這一波的危機不是只有在美國可能還是上次可能是全球所以石蘇朗這邊西藥進口商他倡議就是說是不是應該要承認以獲得美國FDA或歐盟的EMA核准的處方簽以縮短我們的查驗登記的程序跟時間降低國際藥品輸入門檻"},{"start":2523.832,"end":2538.581,"text":"所以健保署對此的態度如何甚至是不是可以能夠兩方在美國那邊甚至在我們台灣是不是也都可以爭取彼此的承認先做一點點補充因為是新藥"},{"start":2542.864,"end":2568.839,"text":"精準的高高精準的藥物新藥在國際上FDA審過了是不是所謂的平行的一個承認的概念嗎那我們對於精準的一些高度的新的用藥來講對於一些疾病尖端的治療我們認為這個是有很大的空間可以去討論的因為國內目前對於藥證的審查裡面有幾種一般普通的審查那有部分其實是加速的審查"},{"start":2569.35,"end":2575.052,"text":"對 那我們現在是不是可以 因為孝敬偶像去倡議說是不是可以"},{"start":2575.854,"end":2600.163,"text":"整個查驗的那個可以縮短查驗登記的程序跟時間來降低這個部分是縮短查驗登記的時間事實上我們食藥署這邊持續在進行當中那至於我們剛才看到的是說我們假如國外FDA承認的它的藥物裡面非常多種舉例它有很多的學民的用藥它勢必如果是直接平行的話那這部分我們其實不是那麼支持"},{"start":2600.623,"end":2613.009,"text":"因為它很快速就會佔據整個台灣的學民用藥以及本土的藥業的發展的所以這個知識體大也我們要重新思考但對於新的藥物專利期的藥物假如有個機會讓"},{"start":2614.929,"end":2643.406,"text":"民眾提早可以用到這是我們持續在做加速審查也是我們持續在做的那再麻煩我們的食藥署這邊那那西藥進口商比較擔心產業受到的衝擊所以國產製藥也在4月藥商也在4月14號也提出幾項訴求了所以首先先問部長三大公協會他要求政府在健康台灣全社會訪問任性政策推動上"},{"start":2644.626,"end":2660.419,"text":"應該把社區藥局跟藥廠還有我們的醫財廠整個產業界的都能夠在你們開會裡邊納入他們一起來做討論那在這邊你可不可以給出具體的承諾"},{"start":2661.693,"end":2686.272,"text":"如果在全社會防疫任性裡面我們很清楚委員裡面就是有藥界的代表所以大概有什麼意見在這個防疫任性的一個委員會裡面都會有重複的有藥廠跟醫材廠嗎 甚至社區藥局足夠代表嗎應該是 因為民和有限嘛所以我們目前是邀請藥師公會理事長"},{"start":2687.433,"end":2705.924,"text":"在裡面擔任委員,他也提供很寶貴的意見,協助我們整個醫療的一個韌性那至於剛剛您提的這三大公會的訴求,我們很感謝我們健保署非常的用心針對這些本一直的訴求在去年11月21號公告的一些預告的一些政策"},{"start":2710.667,"end":2738.329,"text":"那到1月20已經那個 那這段期間真的健保署的同仁也很辛苦把大家的意見在整理的好希望送到部裡面的時候能夠很快的來公告 來真正給給國內的製藥最大的一個幫助這部分請那個市署長補充一下市長這邊也在他的第二個訴求事實上是能夠促進學民藥的替代所以你這部分 因為我看你們製藥事實上是規劃當中可不可以加速"},{"start":2739.249,"end":2753.915,"text":"跟委員報告對於這個我們國內的整個健保一萬四千多個品項裡頭其實83%是屬於國內製造是佔了很大宗的那但是呢它的整個申報金額大概只有23%所以如何就簡單的講說它是這個"},{"start":2756.696,"end":2781.426,"text":"物聯價美啦所以我們是很希望去多鼓勵這個學民藥或者生物相似藥的使用所以我們在去年開始推動這個學民使用這個生物相似藥的這個獎勵措施所以本來它的佔率只有7%今年一年直施下來大概提升到13%那我們希望朝向30%這個目標來前進所以今年下半年還會再擴大那麼這個化學"},{"start":2784.787,"end":2800.785,"text":"化療的學名藥大概什麼時候下半年因為我們還要經過那個專家會議清單出來然後共同擬定會議通過就可以那楊署長這邊他的第三個訴求是因為未來預期我們國際藥價的漲價對國產"},{"start":2804.264,"end":2824.43,"text":"我們的藥商一定會產生一些衝擊那健保要價要及時反映市場價格做調動是不是說到這邊也有我們在這個藥品支付標準第34條跟35條他都有因應這個如果生產供應鏈改變成本不敷的時候可以提出這個臨時的調整藥價這個是有這個機制可以來進行所以這個機制都有"},{"start":2831.089,"end":2838.096,"text":"本來原定4月要公布實施的叫做全民健康保險藥物起伏項目跟支付標準跟全民健康保險"},{"start":2839.071,"end":2860.622,"text":"藥品價格跟調整的作業辦法這兩項那請問一下署長月底前可不可以如期公布實施跟委員報告謝謝委員很關切這兩個法案這一個是藥價調整辦法主要是要針對如果有國內製造屬於必要藥品品項在三項以下的當年度不調整藥價所以這個我們已經修好了"},{"start":2863.684,"end":2884.677,"text":"還有一個是支付標準對於國內製造使用國內的原料要都有加成的規定還有鼓勵這個新藥首先在台灣上市或者是在國外上市的兩年內到台灣來製造都有鼓勵的措施那因為是1月20號完成預告所以我們把大家的意見整理之後已經現在在做簽辦這個月底"},{"start":2889.139,"end":2890.96,"text":"因為現在是按照程序然後把所有的意見都弄好就麻煩你們4月底能夠如期因為我時間有稍微再給我一點時間藥品價格波動同樣衝擊我們國產的那個製藥的原"},{"start":2910.615,"end":2929.274,"text":"原料料的一個價格那我們看那個官務署的那個海關統計2022年自中國進口的原料的金額佔總金額的54%那如果由於中國原料料的價格都是比印度的原料料價格打7折所以從數量來看的話大概中國是佔70%"},{"start":2931.144,"end":2949.672,"text":"所以不只台灣全球都因為受到這種低價的吸引所以想問部長如果接下來要是抓住原藥料不出口的話台灣的國產制藥必定陷入在困境裡面所以在台灣對中國的高度依賴狀況下你怎麼去因應這個問題"},{"start":2950.831,"end":2971.538,"text":"好我想這個不管是燃料要用相關的物品第一個真的是全球的趨勢都是強調就地生產就地行銷這個部分可能未來要加強的那當然我們也會所以能不能考量多元化的用分散市場的觀念來處理那這個食藥署的署長再補充一下"},{"start":2976.175,"end":3002.324,"text":"我想委員這邊提到非常關鍵的議題的確我們在原料藥的來源中國跟印度佔的比相當高超過近50%以上所以近年來我們其實是極度的在支持跟國內的新的原料藥的生產比如說在去年裡面我們國內的申請的張數其實高達27張那我們希望未來能夠做分散我們可以看到不管是在歐洲系統"},{"start":3003.144,"end":3025.107,"text":"還是在亞洲地區的日本都是有機會讓我們去爭取的方向所以我想問一下部長能不能對我們的國產製藥廠做價差的貼布因為畢竟我們台灣有三十幾間的原藥藥廠可是每年反而是去外銷所以能不能讓國產的原藥料留在台灣"},{"start":3027.181,"end":3050.478,"text":"這個請你們去做考慮然後也請食藥署這邊是不是立刻盤點我們覺得政府應該要去充分掌握說那我們使用中國原藥料這樣的一個潛在危機所以你應該要去了解整個去針對中國的原藥料應該從政府手中的資料去勾結出來能夠去做對照到底哪些"},{"start":3051.397,"end":3077.09,"text":"優先品項你們這邊要充分掌握最後就是期待是不是因為八大藥業的工會上週都提出說縮短不利醫院採購藥品到期前有效期8個月縮短到6個月那食藥署這邊對這個表示說只要藥品只要在出廠標示的有效期限內都能確保藥效因此有效期限縮短不影響藥效的話那"},{"start":3078.905,"end":3097.604,"text":"可是卻可以降低到我們的藥商庫存的藥品壓力 我不知道部長你可不可以回應這個呼籲那個藥界的訴求都有它的道理 但是它有採購有一定的專家的一個會議這個在部立 因為你問部立業嘛 我請林青峰執行長簡料的回答一下"},{"start":3098.304,"end":3114.912,"text":"報告委員 最主要是我們的整個聯標是26家部裡還有18個縣市還有所有的這個縣市衛生局所所以它這個所謂的大小規模不一樣地域不一樣所以它在這個部分裡面有偏鄉離島所以他們牽涉到他們裡面的"},{"start":3115.952,"end":3131.952,"text":"需求剛剛部長特別提到因為我們是一個藥聯標委員會所以裡面有含有各醫院的院長還有藥劑主任還有專家學者所以他們都在統籌裡面也調查所有的醫院還有衛生所的需求所以在這個部分裡面我們也是尊重我們的現在藥聯標委員會它裡面的決議"},{"start":3134.295,"end":3161.101,"text":"第三個其實現在現行的體系的醫院包含台大或是退府會或是說軍方還有一些是聯義他們都是在八個月以上甚至還有一年所以在這個部分裡面其實我們都是交給我們的聯邦委員會因為我這邊最後就提出這五項請我們的部長這邊針對這五項後面待會我們會再持續追蹤後面我也有那個臨時提案我們聯義會持續努力謝謝"},{"start":3164.98,"end":3189.757,"text":"好 謝謝 請回 案例要安裝一點 不然時間有限 時間已經過很久了接下來請陳昭志陳委員謝謝主席 麻煩請邱部長兩位署長 江署長跟石署長麻煩帶一份今天的書面資料 一份就放桌上因為我對資料有點 今天看到有點問題兩位署長"},{"start":3196.991,"end":3197.513,"text":"就江處長 施處長"},{"start":3205.719,"end":3227.515,"text":"好部長跟兩位首長早那個對於藥品穩定供應的相關機制裡面再請看第二頁對於必要藥品的清單是很重要的那不好意思我可不可以麻煩那個江署長您可不可以念一下這一段因為這一段是您的你們署寫的來制定必要藥品清單請問是書面報告還是口頭報告你讀一下因為才三行字來麻煩快點"},{"start":3230.057,"end":3246.749,"text":"對,請署長讀,署長來第二頁,第二頁,制定必要清單呢?滾動式呢?您自己稍微了解一下你時間稍微考起來,時間稍微考起來,他們找不到自己的資料,拜託拜託時間給你考起來制定必要藥品"},{"start":3247.549,"end":3263.767,"text":"清單 滾動式檢討藥品清單以強化藥商預先通報的責任及必要藥品供應不足之與之實之因應之道好 請暫停 必要清單你知道有幾項嗎 必要藥品你知道大概有幾項嗎 誰決定的我們現在是訂了584項然後是誰決定的"},{"start":3267.924,"end":3273.749,"text":"是在我們這邊的盤點之後最後的確定下來就是誰決定誰去做這個必要清單的決定我們在食藥署這邊盤點確定下來的不是他一定有認定啊必要有一個認定過程啊這是第一個第二個你有這個名單你的目的是為了強化廠商通報嗎對"},{"start":3285.939,"end":3312.706,"text":"他不是為了強化廠商 因為我們最主要是要穩定嘛所以如果是一個寡占 我們的所謂的你說得好 署長所以他不是為了強化他通報機制廠商啊責任不在廠商啊你中央要有一個知道說我訂了必要清單你現在講不出必要清單是誰訂的OK啦 沒有就是說再去了解必要清單訂下來以後你要知道我要穩定供應不是廠商因為他不需要知道別人怎麼供應法"},{"start":3313.286,"end":3337.861,"text":"你同意嗎?你要有這個中央的監控我稍微提一下我這邊是我們針對這個必要的藥品清單確立之後他就會有相對的供應的廠商那我們會有一個登錄的系統底下能夠照他們藥庫裡面來要求因為你管的是幾百項你竟然訂了幾百項把我嚇到了好幾百項必要那我再問你一件事你知道健保署有他自己的另外一套清單"},{"start":3339.481,"end":3358.479,"text":"你知道嗎 我現在知道 你知道嗎這個我沒有很確定你們兩個從來沒有牽手 該我承受一下食藥署跟這個下游的 這就從來沒有牽手過好 那個施署長就麻煩你念一下第五頁黑是你的 所以我請你念來 第四項第五頁那個黑是 確保藥品供應維持合理請你念一下那一段 快一點 謝謝"},{"start":3359.9,"end":3383.973,"text":"確保藥品供應維持合理要價冒號經主管機關公告之必要藥品並符合同分組內有國內製造品項並符合同分組內有國內製造品項抗維生物質既不在此限這個重複了抱歉即從分組分類未遇及同分組分類"},{"start":3386.08,"end":3387.765,"text":"這個好像有三個品項的條件當年度要駕步與調整"},{"start":3393.547,"end":3415.692,"text":"以確保藥品供貨穩定 平衡藥價調整與健保支出再為我今天要多一點點時間 你看都是他們資料有問題第一個署長你讀不懂嘛對不對讀不通讀不通因為沒有整理文字 沒有確定就把它交上來嘛那對我們來說這很重要然後請問你健保署有所謂的必要藥品嗎"},{"start":3416.943,"end":3444.464,"text":"我們是參考這個FDA所訂的那個必要藥品清單為主請等一下健保署沒有必要藥品這四個字育文組長對不對沒有我們這個這次修法才有你的名稱是什麼你的名稱是什麼你不叫必要藥品因為你為了當年為了怕跟食藥署混在一起叫什麼特什麼他只要回答名字就好了我時間也很寶貴叫特殊叫我們特殊品"},{"start":3444.864,"end":3473.821,"text":"早就改了嗎我們叫特殊品對你們沒有必要藥品清單石組長你們沒有必要而且是2016年之前就改了現在我們在修法就是修這個就是藥價調整辦法修進來的這是新的草案條文石組長你剛剛第一個就是文字儀化整理大家看不懂而且我覺得三項以內應該就是不予調整要予調整這個讀起來都很奇怪還有兩位署長再麻煩你看部長就在旁邊了解你們兩個的必要藥品括號你叫特殊藥品你叫必要品"},{"start":3474.701,"end":3496.058,"text":"你有幾項 石鼠爪你有幾項必要 那個特殊品項我們現在有幾項我們現在以這個新的修法的剛剛這個條文的話是跟石藥署是一致的我們是用必要藥品一樣的名稱現在我們一直在處理啊你是叫特殊品項 而且你還裡面分兩類嘛沒有替代性跟有替代性的嘛然後你現在有幾項"},{"start":3497.321,"end":3518.118,"text":"你還沒修法都不要講我們現在有800多項啦好 你看 你倆有避過嗎?你的800跟你的500 你們有避過嗎?好 光光這個問題要解決這個什麼關稅的那個彩效你們的必要清單就都沒有了我今天在諮詢我們都有涵納啦那個FDA的必要藥品清單都在我們這個裡面"},{"start":3520.902,"end":3535.473,"text":"我們都包含在裡頭了好像不是喔 署長我對他置身三十年好像不是這樣 都是有專家認定的部長 你看 我先問你 不然兩位先回座好了這個署長 施署長 我等一下其實本來要告訴你你說可以調整 因為更不夠 必須調整但是你知道調整的過程要多久嗎"},{"start":3542.938,"end":3551.923,"text":"還有什麼步驟嗎 你知道嗎我們當然調整的過程還是需要跟廠商去議價那也要經過共同議會議通過不是不是 你要經過專家會議他經過共同議會議然後你要認定調價你允許 因為這太特別了這一次的調價你平常不是這麼做的你平常就算他們提出成本分析你都要去判斷說有沒有類似藥品其實成分不一樣有沒有類似藥品可以用有沒有 那個很判斷"},{"start":3571.213,"end":3596.561,"text":"很主觀的東西所以第一個你還說這個是必要品你先讓他申請你要不要認定認定可不可以調之後第二個才我怎麼調法或不調然後你的屬下堅持要分開會議處理要兩次會議處理我曾經提案在你還沒有開除我之前我曾經提案說兩件事一起處理不要等時間因為既然是重要的藥品缺藥過去也有缺藥不是現在才缺藥啊"},{"start":3597.341,"end":3619.172,"text":"但是你的步驟是這樣跟委員報告在這次輸液的時候我們就查取了快速的處理那個沒有問題我們這次已經有經驗了你的專家群會再去認定啊所以你這次報告寫的東西不對嘛因為報告寫裡面的必要清單我們就會給予這個如果說因為關稅等等要這樣改變我們就去處理但是你的專家可不是這樣講因為你的上情從來不下達專家還是用他原來那一套在跑好嗎"},{"start":3625.601,"end":3649.326,"text":"不過這個現在我們就很清楚了我們跟這次的修正辦法就是跟食藥署同步我們採用一樣的標準他認定的過程喔而且他認定還分兩次會議對不對 藝文組長沒錯吧結果我這次先認定你是不是屬於我們認為我們需要的不是你講的必要名單喔不是說放在必要清單特殊品項就直接調不是喔你就先說好"},{"start":3650.606,"end":3673.817,"text":"我先認定一次好下次會議也不知道一次個月還兩個月後好我再來認定好可能還是不調喔可能還是不調喔因為調價是兩件事認定跟調價兩件事情你們現在作業是這樣做的對當然是要有必要裁調當然是這樣啊這個藥品一定要分開嗎沒有可替代的我們裁調有替代的我們當然用替代還是要為健保省錢啊保管啊都在清單裡面啊那你的清單是假的"},{"start":3677.158,"end":3703.479,"text":"清單有兩種處理在這個必要藥品 清單剛剛我提到的是在調整藥價的時候它是稀缺品項 我們不予調價另外一個是調整 要調高調高那個是根據34條 35條你怎麼不簽手 你還跟他說800多項 你這個500多項你認定是必要藥品 那你又去設條件 設品牌特殊品項是800多 必要藥品我們現在是跟FDA同步了所以我們才在修這個辦法的目的就是在這裡 讓它同步"},{"start":3704.795,"end":3718.909,"text":"是他跟你同步你跟他同步你是要付錢的喔他的必要品可能不付錢喔你這個兩位署長你們要搞清楚你一個是負責發證讓這個藥品可以進來必要藥品我們一定會納入給付必要藥品一定納入給付"},{"start":3719.98,"end":3739.499,"text":"你過去不是這樣的原則的喔那我再跟你講一次你現在沒有必要藥品從我在這裡就是用這個原則在處理這件事你一直上情不下達你沒有進去開會啊你沒有進去開專家會議啊我在那邊30年了你沒有進去開會啊一直都不是這樣所以我今天真的是為了這個報告我今天的質詢稿都不能講了"},{"start":3740.82,"end":3755.635,"text":"我今天看你們第一個你們兩個數很重要一個上游是許可證進來進來後大家等著要健保給付你這個兩端大家從來不牽手各自做各自的你看大家也聽到到目前為止因為你說要準備修法"},{"start":3756.035,"end":3773.487,"text":"可是到目前為止你的必要清單跟你的以前叫必要清單後來叫特殊因為你們怕confuse在一起你們還擔心混淆在一起所以你們特別切割特別去切割然後又為了怕這個跟什麼WHO的必要品清單混在一起這件事一塌糊塗"},{"start":3774.648,"end":3778.992,"text":"然後處理方式都不一樣啊那現在說你要跟他看齊欸這麼快嗎幾百項要跟他看齊但是看齊了以後等到缺藥那你也不去處理要價啊那個處理要價另外一套規則你那幾十個專家委員從來沒有聽過你這套規則他們處理的方法幾十年都一樣還是用他們主觀的感覺去決定我要不要給你調降啊就算他給你成本分析你還是不給他動啊"},{"start":3799.229,"end":3805.341,"text":"我們今年在要價調整的時候就已經調整了200項都是調整要價油啊"},{"start":3806.345,"end":3835.254,"text":"有這個機制啊那不是必要藥品反正我今天因為我是針對你們的題目你們的書面資料我也讓部長知道部長當然不會知道這麼仔細第一個兩個各自有他的自己清單從來幾十年來從來不簽手的各自做各自的那健保署為了付錢有他自己的遊戲規則而且就是盡量時間很慢幾個月會通過一半以上都不給予調整"},{"start":3836.554,"end":3857.336,"text":"調生價錢或是調尤其是調生你們是非常非常小氣的完全就是等等等等然後到最後導致生理食鹽水嘛剩一家嘛對不對江署長生理食鹽水會搞到這樣就是因為他後來剩一家你不知道你的監測機制出問題嘛剩一家你都不注意你叫要他通報你一直盯他可是其他人沒有辦法再備著支援備用所以你這邊斷了"},{"start":3858.217,"end":3866.961,"text":"然後斷了以後健保署才不知道說我今天沒辦法談要價差你付25他賣18其他人撐不住就這一家長在撐用18塊撐到他也撐不住品質了出問題了然後林社長去國外買買51塊不准有要價差而且去年花了三四億今年又變了11億11億等著犯錯穩定生理食鹽水穩定專案經濟有責任"},{"start":3883.504,"end":3889.886,"text":"謝謝委員那我們其實特別跟委員報告我們3月24號這個供應的國內的廠已經恢復他的產線所以我們3月24號的監督機制就是怎麼去訪問我剛剛的重點說你哪必要清單都不一樣但是你們只記得以強化我特別讓你們以強化廠商的通報責任在廠商嘛你要通報廠商沒有必要負責我總共台灣有幾家在供應嘛所以這個供應的問題中央公司監測是由我們官方要來處理嘛不能當一家獨大然後那一家品質出問題"},{"start":3912.893,"end":3929.181,"text":"可能就是藥價差搞成沒有辦法沒有辦法用錢去生產有品質的所以全國大斷藥啊基本用就沒有了健保署是很後來的事情去調整的事情我今天你看以後把資料弄清楚然後把名詞弄清楚"},{"start":3929.881,"end":3952.439,"text":"食藥署迄今沒有必要藥品的清單食藥署的必要清單是用自己管理的不是為了讓廠商通報廠商通報只是其中他們要做的一件工作你要從中央控制不要再讓生理食鹽水這麼它還不算必要藥品我認為它是基本的用藥你沒有生理食鹽水更不能開業好嗎台灣的醫療業都不要營業了它是基本的用藥還不是必要必不必要的問題"},{"start":3953.561,"end":3954.302,"text":"非常謝謝我們委員做專業的一個建議要簽手 多簽手要簽手 要公開簽手"},{"start":3969.742,"end":3982.495,"text":"特別年紀相當 因為你上游發許可證 下游健保給付 大家要多合作我們共同為人民的健康 藥品的同意來一起努力非常謝謝委員長的指教 謝謝謝謝主席接下來請陳清威委員來做選擇"},{"start":3998.791,"end":4023.669,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我們請邱部長 謝謝來 請部長委員長邱部長是現在已經是4月16號請問你過去做立委的時候啊這是您109年 110年 111年 112年啊您過去做立委的時候 您還記得這些時間你們都在幹嘛嗎"},{"start":4027.344,"end":4032.746,"text":"都在努力為人民的健康在奮鬥這個時候你們都在提出解凍報告還有解凍預算了甚至呢110年雖然稍晚是5月9號可是呢當時你們這個胃黃委員會有128案提案預算提案凍結各類的預算提案還發新聞稿行政院還發新聞稿說最後感謝三讀通過所以胃黃委員在5月9號也排了預算解凍的處理"},{"start":4057.077,"end":4063.041,"text":"那現在也讓您稍微回憶一下其實您過去這個110年111年也是大刀闊斧啦您又砍蔡政府砍蘇貞昌內閣的預算是不手軟那我有把您的一些緣由啊理由啊都有讀完了"},{"start":4075.009,"end":4078.091,"text":"110年您砍了防疫業務的錢砍了少子化降低家庭負擔經費的錢到110年呢你一樣是砍了防疫的錢砍了傳染病防治業務的錢砍了WHO業務的錢但是"},{"start":4091.242,"end":4107.919,"text":"當時陳時中部長是非常積極的把解凍的報告我查了一下您當4年的這個立委期間陳時中部長呢都是大概在3月3月初就把解凍報告全部都送進來了所以我在這邊也很想問您啊"},{"start":4109.581,"end":4137.543,"text":"這個今年的解凍這個凍結案有藍的有綠的有白的為什麼你遲遲不把解凍報告送進來讓我們解凍經費呢因為我們看了一些其他委員會的質詢也有部長看起來像是覺得好像有上級授意還是說柯總召的指示你們是整齊劃一的動作在遲遲不提出解凍報告但是您擔任立委的期間我看您是非常負責在"},{"start":4138.904,"end":4163.138,"text":"砍預算而且非常負責在監督政府也非常負責在審這些解凍的報告然後也協助衛環委員會跟陳時中部長配合解凍請問有什麼緣由嗎到現在還沒有辦法提出解凍報告謝謝委員我可不可以先針對你這兩張PowerPoint解釋一下第一個我當了兩屆的立委"},{"start":4164.562,"end":4180.575,"text":"我的核酸這樣好像不太盡責但是我很用心在審查預算都覺得行政部門真的是有需要為了人民的健康在努力所以我們也盡量讓不應該酸的就不要去酸不應該凍的也不要影響人家去凍"},{"start":4182.697,"end":4193.202,"text":"所以我要解釋的第一你剛列出來的都是動的我可以把我可以可以可以我唸完了我已經把你的理由我已經把你的理由都已經我已經把你的理由都讀完了我覺得是合理的合理的沒錯"},{"start":4199.145,"end":4217.924,"text":"我現在只想問你嘛因為你過去這四年你也很認真的看了陳時中部長的解凍報告那你也來配合做解凍的動作嘛所以為什麼你現在不送解凍報告嘛因為你完全了解這個流程啊所以現在在卡解凍的人是你啊"},{"start":4220.574,"end":4224.936,"text":"你什麼時候要送馬因為前幾天教育部部長說前幾天教育部部長說大概兩到三週那您可以給我們一個時程嗎"},{"start":4235.299,"end":4250.971,"text":"我想我們的思想因為因為這整個相當的一個這次的動山預算跟以前是不一樣的完全的不一樣所以有點出乎意料之外所以有很多事情要處理而且必須要去"},{"start":4251.271,"end":4259.973,"text":"完全的不一樣其實我有核對一下您對小子化的評論還有我有核對您對疫情愛滋病防治的評論很多都跟我們現在的看法是相同的喔很多都跟我們現在看法相同的喔你當時覺得防治愛滋病做得不夠好然後你當時也覺得有些小子化做得不夠好所以其實我們現在只是想要問你我們現在只是想要問你依照您"},{"start":4279.617,"end":4300.841,"text":"當時擔任委員的經驗還有您當時解凍報告的經驗請問你大概還需要幾週我其實就是很簡單的問你你大概幾週內想要提出解凍報告嗎我只是要問你這個問題因為這次我們的委員的確要求的比較嚴格所以我們非常謹慎所以你的意思是說你回答不出來所以你回答不出來不是你回答不出來我們在努力當中所以你講不出幾個禮拜講不出幾個禮拜我覺得"},{"start":4308.822,"end":4331.224,"text":"我們會盡快 請委員放心可以 教育部長也說盡快 所以他講兩到三週那您的盡快是多少我想我們衛福部也要至少要跟教育部一起兩到三週你要追求教育部兩到三週我們期待那個你要不要先從你覺得最重要的開始 要不要"},{"start":4333.851,"end":4348.655,"text":"呃...也可以啊而且我查了一下哈當時陳時中部長一邊在應付疫情非常的忙碌但是他交這個結論報告從來沒有delay過都是3月初喔好 那...好 你也是2到3週嘛你是2到3週嘛 對吧 是嘛是...是2到3週"},{"start":4354.881,"end":4370.915,"text":"我想我們時間上我想我們不要去做那個你剛才說你會配合教育部對 但是但是如果說你說要我醫院要兩到三週我當然就會接著說我們希望兩到三週送你覺得最重要的這樣怎麼樣我們來努力"},{"start":4374.778,"end":4378.881,"text":"沒有答案再來我們來問經濟部有沒有發現我們藥品的逆差是48.2億元所以剛雖然有講到說進口的藥美國的藥 歐洲的藥不管進口的藥雖然數量佔的不多但其他的價值佔了七成因為它的藥費是貴的"},{"start":4397.913,"end":4418.821,"text":"這是貴的這也是我們的製藥工會統計出來的所以當然您有提到說這個供應鏈的生態啊原物料的漲價一定會造成藥價變貴那我現在是想問啊您有提到說您為扶植在地的廠商所以有兩個行政辦法修正按碼剛剛也有許多人講到了"},{"start":4419.261,"end":4429.526,"text":"之前好像有點嚴當但是最近的新聞又說4月要上路請問這個4月要上路是確定要上路是會跳票還是不會因為之前跳票了一次"},{"start":4430.373,"end":4449.439,"text":"好 我跟委員報告齁 我們完全 據瞭解完全沒有延擋而且還 我還敬佩健保署的同仁在時事長領導之下把這兩個政策做得非常的完美而且在11月20號就預告那因為有很多的一些意見所以我們必須 這已經是"},{"start":4451.039,"end":4472.114,"text":"其他在對等其他的法案規定已經是最快的速度很快會送到衛福部來那我想一定會是4月上路符合大家的需要4月會上路那現在是4月中嘛如果我想這幾天應該就會完成我們用最快的速度來公告所以您預計做出應該4月底好我們也想問因為這個也是台灣致藥業滿關切的你預計做出什麼成績那民眾會對藥價會有什麼感受"},{"start":4479.719,"end":4499.758,"text":"您預計做出什麼成績這個請那個政策擬定則實施長來跟委員跟委員報告這裡面分成幾塊那第一個當然就是剛剛提到對國內的國內製藥的支持所以我們在這個藥價調整辦法裡面有新修對於這個"},{"start":4501.089,"end":4520.078,"text":"必要藥品清單裡頭那麼國內的這個品項有國內製造的品項然後那個該組裡面少於三個品項以下的那我們就免於這個當年度我們就不調藥價所以藥價不會一直往下砍的意思那同時這裡面呢如果是有一個必要抗生素的話"},{"start":4521.799,"end":4534.284,"text":"連國際進來的我們也都一起比照所以這個是第一個那第二個呢我們在這個資物標準裡面也有一些支持的措施那麼譬如說呢你是使用國內的原料藥我們加價10%在國內做過的臨床試驗有發表paper這個讓這個學名藥有這個"},{"start":4540.086,"end":4559.221,"text":"公信力那這個我們也是加價10%的那另外我們也去鼓勵這個這個新藥的上市過去我們只有對於台灣的首發新藥就全球首發我們才有這個優惠的價但我們現在也去鼓勵如果你是在國際先上市的兩年內到國內來製造"},{"start":4560.822,"end":4575.051,"text":"的這種新藥我們也有合價的優惠措施這邊我也是幫他們請命啦因為他們有提到說之後如果他們證明他們生產成本有增加的話其實你也會適當反應在藥價調整機制中嘛這個不管對於進口廠商還有國內廠商您都會一樣做但是國內呢他們還有面臨一個隱形的成本也就是說水費啊電費啊通膨啊所以他們希望在這個您可不可以考慮把它納入"},{"start":4589.286,"end":4605.772,"text":"就是水電費我記得上次的電費有特別有處理過委員也有協助醫院 醫療端還有通棚那再來想問一下因為部長非常在意的是這個"},{"start":4607.412,"end":4624.979,"text":"戰備任性的藥品的這個list因為您現在上次我們經歷了生理鹹水這個混亂其實藥品它是一個非常重要的戰略物資所以未來一旦發生供應鏈中斷或是遞原的風險我們應該要怎麼辦請問我們可以跟你要到這個list嗎因為裡面一定有東西是"},{"start":4626.399,"end":4648.817,"text":"獨佔或是寡佔我們絕對只能仰賴進口的你想得出來哪一些嘛比如說剛剛有提到的癌藥啊 罕病藥啊還有在專利期之內的啊COVID的用藥啊 COVID的疫苗啊等等這個您定不定義為是一個戰略物資我們戰略物資是另外一塊我們是定義的就是跟食藥署合作的必要藥品清單"},{"start":4649.637,"end":4663.713,"text":"所以我們之後可以跟您要到這個清單嗎報告委員這584項所謂必要藥品的清單是我們已經在今年2月份已經公佈完全已經確立下來所以可以提供給委員"},{"start":4664.714,"end":4685.286,"text":"另外第二個部分特別提到所謂的戰備的相關的藥物的韌性的時候是有25項的舉例是抗生素裡面的Amoxicillin的抗生素比如說Epinephrine, Arthropine等等的我們比較在意的是這個戰備清單裡面有沒有一定會是大部分仰賴進口的因為這個絕對有"},{"start":4688.321,"end":4694.306,"text":"我們目前都是國產的那我們希望COVID用藥還在專利期所以COVID用藥我們大部分是仰賴進口對這個是"},{"start":4696.98,"end":4704.523,"text":"你沒有把它放進戰備物資?並不是特別的戰備 戰備物資是在暫時平時轉鑽石非常非常關鍵的用藥特別是在戰傷的那個部分好 沒關係 這個我們等拿到您的這份list我們可以再一樣樣逐項討論那再來也問一個這個醫界非常關心的問題因為下一波呢"},{"start":4718.267,"end":4743.786,"text":"川普要談判的就是對於這個藥品那藥品他目前很強調的這個也是我們都在業內所以我們也知道現在這些美商啦美國的藥廠啊他其實長期就是非常介意我們有許多的非關稅貿易壁壘你審查他的新藥太久啦你給付他的藥價太低啊等等其實也嚴重的妨礙到我們病人的權益尤其是有一些"},{"start":4744.306,"end":4759.424,"text":"癌症病人他們希望可以用到新藥等等的所以在這未來90天的談判藥品的談判藥品進口的談判一定會是很重要的一環我想知道這個你們有沒有派出衛福部的代表一起參與這一次的談判我想要"},{"start":4764.643,"end":4791.734,"text":"藥品醫材是雙方面的啦互相所以至少到現在是用零關稅在互相對待部長我先跟你解釋一下我們比較擔心的是說在整個關稅的這樣的一個變動當中的確成本會增加那這個部分我們國內已經很早都有一個從一個及早來監測然後缺藥的一個處理然後藥價的一個調整都已經很完整了"},{"start":4792.254,"end":4806.289,"text":"所以現階段是沒有缺藥的問題我現在沒有在跟你講缺藥第一個是成本增加第二個他要談的是很多非關稅貿易壁壘也就是他希望打破以前他禁藥禁台灣的這些障礙他要把它列入他的談判項目白話文來說白話文來說"},{"start":4813.496,"end":4821.647,"text":"就是如果我們價格談不攏他就不想進台灣影響到病人的權益但是如果我們硬著頭皮把這些進口藥買進來"},{"start":4823.697,"end":4848.423,"text":"很多醫生真的很擔心會壓縮到我們的健保點子啊所以我想問你的因應是什麼因為這個就是他們放在非關稅貿易壁壘裡面很重要的一個項目也是長期我們看這些外商的藥廠來跟我們遊說的嘛他們就是說我們這審查很慢嘛然後給他的價格非常的低有的人就乾脆不想進來了嘛"},{"start":4849.858,"end":4864.699,"text":"好 包委我想在談判的事情並不是非A及B而是有雙方共同創造利益共同創造三領的局面站在我們的政府絕對是站在人民健康的維護"},{"start":4866.661,"end":4869.462,"text":"那個立場上來做相關的談判那中間有很多很有智慧的一個互動所以你會派代表一起參與我們一直在因為他有各種層次的一個幕僚我們當然都有充分的把我們的這一邊的醫藥品醫療的醫療體系"},{"start":4886.111,"end":4891.973,"text":"藥品醫材方面的一個資訊以及我們盤點的進入一個幕僚在盤判的我先在這邊跟部長示警因為我覺得未來我們勢必這個健保總額一定是不足的因為你說他是零關稅沒錯但是我們現在第一波所有這些鋁"},{"start":4906.856,"end":4928.467,"text":"包裝的材料啊玻璃瓶啊等等就是我們藥品製造裡面大量用到的包裝材料所以他賣進來的錢是一定增加的他賣進來的錢是一定增加的所以未來這個是部長你很大的一個挑戰我相信我們還會在這邊就健保點值在同樣一個問題我們還會再談論到他"},{"start":4931.508,"end":4936.351,"text":"委員報告一下真的很感謝我們立法院尤其衛反這些委員前輩們的努力我們今年的健保總額成長是有史以來最高的同時政府也給了...我知道你們在訂立成長總額的...你訂立成長總額的時候還沒發生這件事情如果未來我們當然有一個機制如果需要的話我相信政府一樣"},{"start":4954.88,"end":4967.826,"text":"會秉持著像今年給我們這麼多的一個預算一樣來充分的讓我們的人民健康得到最好的保障這邊就是先給您一個示警一個提醒大家一起努力 不好意思召委 謝謝那接下來請王毓民委員來做選擇"},{"start":4984.093,"end":4986.803,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們是不是有請我們邱部長"},{"start":4992.782,"end":4998.924,"text":"委員好部長好部長是這個有關於川普他要提高關稅這件事情其實是讓很多的行業都受到衝擊那對於衛福部來講其實本席覺得最重要的是在這一次的談判當中我們能不能守住國人健康作為最優先的底線而且不要把國人的健康"},{"start":5019.969,"end":5049.37,"text":"拿出去談判這個是重中之重喔部長你有沒有看過2025年美國貿易代表署他所提交的外貿的這個障礙評估報告點名台灣有幾件事都跟你有關喔是你有關注到嗎好那我們就來探討一下這次他所提到的幾個重點喔第一個他竟然要求我們美豬美牛不可以再標示"},{"start":5050.689,"end":5067.299,"text":"這個你同意嗎好 我想我們的原則非常簡單一定以我們台灣人民的健康守護為最優先那第二個就是我們要有科學的根據來做基礎當然要符合國際的標準"},{"start":5068.8,"end":5077.422,"text":"我想以這樣的情況來做未來的不管是任何的一個所以部長你這樣子講我們就很擔心了因為你說符合國際的標準我這邊就特別點出來請問豬的腎臟就是我們台語講的郵寄這件事情他竟然要求我們就是應該要開放這個部分那你知道當時我們為什麼針對豬的內臟"},{"start":5098.708,"end":5121.52,"text":"這個特別是腎臟的部分去做一些的進食為什麼坐月子啊我就直接講了齁那個食藥署的江署長是腎臟科的教授好來食藥署署長是腎臟科教授你有贊成這個美國的豬的腎臟進口到台灣讓我們的婦女坐月子的時候可以大吃特吃沒有關係嗎"},{"start":5123.842,"end":5148.257,"text":"報告委員就腎臟部分我算有研究那就我們的國人的飲食的特殊性那對於坐月子的時候涉食我們的豬腎臟那這個豬腰子特別是麻油麻油腰子那我們特殊的情形下我們也精算過相關的可能的潛在的風險所以就兩個層次第一個就是"},{"start":5149.518,"end":5166.54,"text":"剛才提到的標示的問題的部分那我們的標示目前是一體私用豬肉的部分是不跟國內國外任何國家一律標示那這樣子的做法其實在美國提出來的議題當中其實我們沒有特別針對什麼做歧視的"},{"start":5167,"end":5176.688,"text":"所以這個部分是我們不會退讓嗎很重要的一件事情是對於你要回答我們是不是堅持還是會繼續標示我們現在既定的就是做標示這件事情我覺得未來我們國內呢我們非常非常鼓勵我們積極的去持續的標示這件事情是我們對於國內相關的產業能夠持續的支持的一個很重要的一點那就關於剛才提到第二點"},{"start":5190.92,"end":5211.101,"text":"所謂動物殘餘裡面的腎臟有更嚴格的標準裡面因為我們盤點過也算過精算過裡面的數字我們了解它的整個殘餘的過程所以我們會基於科學的基礎因為是要用風險評估的一個基礎那有必要的時候我可以協助做很精細的一個計算我們整體的曝露量"},{"start":5212.743,"end":5223.09,"text":"讓國人在面對食品安全國外的相關進口的食品的時候了解他潛在的風險是怎麼樣這是我可以做得到的地方跟委員做進一步的報告我是說美方這樣子要求我們有要退讓嗎還是維持原來的我們的一個"},{"start":5230.215,"end":5248.619,"text":"範定的標準跟規定豬的腎臟你有要開放嗎我們針對食品安全世界都是用WHO或者是FL Codex其實用同樣的標準還有食用量的問題還有我們的飲食文化所以當時為什麼對於豬腎臟特別提出來就是因為我們的飲食文化比較特殊"},{"start":5255.661,"end":5282.432,"text":"這個一定要納入考量啊所以你們現在的立場我們有把相關的基準其實都給我們整個談判的一個過程當中我們這個也很好我們的建議我們對於它整個風險的部分其實我們特別特別提出來你們已經有給談判代表一個你們的建議了嗎我們有特別提到我們過去的一個風險的一個情形歷史上的因素所以你們的最終的建議是什麼就是維持現行的做法不用調整還是你們是持一個彈性可以讓他們去談"},{"start":5284.25,"end":5309.363,"text":"因為我們是以它的數字它的風險的鋪路這個署長你回答比較直接一點告訴我你們衛福部的立場到底是什麼當美國提出這樣的貿易障礙報告的時候我們的底線是什麼我們堅持的原則是什麼我們的底線就是以科學評估出來的數字當作是一個基準來做雙方去做最重要的談判的基準事實上目前我們能夠做的也是只有這一點"},{"start":5310.003,"end":5334.182,"text":"我覺得你們缺乏一個態度就是捍衛國人的健康你們講的這樣子就是模糊以對然後說什麼標準什麼標準就一句話就可以結束嗎如果過去我們認為這個是對的即使美國他提出了貿易障礙報告我們應該站在國人的健康的原則上面就是我們維持我們一貫的標準這個是我們不會去退讓的底線這句話不敢講嗎"},{"start":5335.903,"end":5340.427,"text":"還是你們根本就是鬆動了 所以才不敢講因為美國的壓力太大了報導委員 我們這邊其實是會計算我們國人設施的一個特殊所以要不要維持原來的標準嘛 我就問這句話嘛我們過去已經執行好多年了那是不是要繼續往下執行 就這樣就好"},{"start":5359.206,"end":5382.527,"text":"以科學的評估出來的標準當作是談判的基礎那你有沒有改變嗎因為他在萊克多巴胺局說以前交感神經的制度在哪裡都是一樣的我只是要行政部門一個答案那部長你回答好了我覺得署長的回答就是沒有辦法讓外界很清楚就是一個你的底線是什麼過去我們都"},{"start":5383.248,"end":5401.387,"text":"都守住這一個標準這一次美國貿易代表署他們又提出來了貿易障礙報告我們要退讓了嗎我想我剛剛再重複一下我想政府以及我們衛福部一樣都絕對是堅守人民的健康為最重要的一個立場"},{"start":5402.208,"end":5413.576,"text":"那剛剛署長也有提到我們提供我們衛福部是以專業的角色提供了科學的分析風險的一個分析給我們那個談判的團隊那你有沒有改變你的標準嗎我們的標準就是依照跟過去都一模一樣嗎還是你們有鬆動你們有沒有改變我在問的是這個嘛"},{"start":5430.1,"end":5444.383,"text":"我們是國人要知道是說你現在是不是還是繼續守住過去以來你們的標準然後你們態度立場還是要去限制我想政府對於人民的健康的守護是絕對不會鬆動的好你就是這句話不會鬆動這個才是重點不會鬆動對人民健康維護的決心好"},{"start":5451.025,"end":5474.705,"text":"所以部長你這句話我要的就是這句話就是要非常明確的一個底線跟立場那所以另外一個問題就是所以當然就是要依照基改食品依照當然就是風險評估還有科學這過去都評估過了嘛所以才會做出政策嘛所以我們過去都已經評估過了嘛還有加上我們的文化因素所以才會是訂定這樣的一個標準嘛那另外一個玉米跟大豆的基改"},{"start":5475.606,"end":5503.759,"text":"的這一些食品他也覺得不可以有兩種稅號應該要全面的解禁這件事情你們的態度跟立場是什麼有鬆動嗎就我們現在對於基因改造的玉米大豆這部分是列在食品安全管理法內的所以在食品安全管理法沒有在修正之前我們的是依法的行政來執行那會不會因為美國的壓力你們自己就要提出修法要去修食安法裡面的第24條"},{"start":5505.3,"end":5518.865,"text":"現在24條裡面我們是很明確的規定吼含有基改食品的這個原料成分都是要標示的未來你們會不會因為美方的壓力你們自己就提出修法要把這一條改掉了 會不會你們的底線是什麼 會會不會"},{"start":5523.973,"end":5549.028,"text":"我想針對基因改造相關的食品這個議題其實在先進的國家目前在叫基因編輯非常精準的農業的部分那個部分可能是在跨在另外一個農業部的裡面的專業底下所以在不同的一個時空背景底下會不會有進一步的一個調整這目前我們在食安法裡面24條的列的是條列是非常非常清楚的我們是依照上面條列的在執行"},{"start":5550.014,"end":5563.245,"text":"就是將來即使談判完之後你們敢不敢保證這一條衛福部的立場是不會鬆動的在食安法裡面現行的規定不可能再去提出修法的改變你們基本的態度跟立場是什麼 部長"},{"start":5564.69,"end":5581.108,"text":"你現在敢回答嗎一切的一個決策我想政府跟衛福部都一樣真的還是考慮的最重要的還是一定要守護人民的健康好 守護人民的健康不要因為政治壓力而轉彎為什麼我在這邊要問得這麼的清楚"},{"start":5583.951,"end":5589.916,"text":"因為如果我們看到從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統基本上兩個總統的立場就不一樣了蔡英文總統的時候他就是落實食品標示食品來源國到了賴清德總統的時候他主動提到他要排除非關稅貿易障礙而剛剛我讓你看到的這個由美國他的貿易代表所提出來的報告他就是認定剛剛講的"},{"start":5613.135,"end":5622.944,"text":"這一些是關稅貿易障礙但我們的賴總統說要排除所以當然國人就很擔心啊不同的總統立場不一樣所以當賴總統說要開放的時候部長你敢反對嗎"},{"start":5628.171,"end":5646.558,"text":"我想我歷任兩任的總統,我都很了解他們對於人民的健康的維護,絕對是不以一例這是沒有變的所以你對賴總統有信心?當然對,有信心好,那我希望我們是可以捍衛住,因為我現在看到賴總統態度是鬆動的接下來我就問這個藥品跟醫材的部分"},{"start":5651.14,"end":5678.239,"text":"現在美方還沒有公布他關於藥品的這個關稅但是我們看到事實上我們跟美國的這個藥品的相關進出口的情況我們對美國是逆差其實我們從美方進口的藥品還比較多我們是逆差那出現逆差又不是順差的情況他還要再提高我們的關稅 部長這樣合理嗎目前目前藥品還沒有還是沒關稅啊"},{"start":5679.865,"end":5704.03,"text":"但是他說藥品的部分下一步會不會在這個談但是我們已變應變我們已經過去我們已經很好的一個體系在應變了所以基本上我們是可以迎接任何的挑戰所以也不應該再加關稅對不對因為基本上現在美國進口到我們的藥品還挺多我們當然盡量爭取互惠跟三贏的機會"},{"start":5706.031,"end":5709.755,"text":"但是最近這個議題行政院編的880億裡面我們的衛福部其實是零預算就是在各部會的預算裡面你們沒有被安排那萬一在我們的一些相關的藥廠他們受到衝擊的時候需要補助的時候"},{"start":5723.51,"end":5728.515,"text":"部長你錢從哪裡來為什麼獨漏我們的衛福部他忽略了這個整個關稅之戰可能對於藥品類也會產生衝擊從原料的部分的成本的提高然後到後面的這一些我們的進出口可能受到衝擊為什麼獨漏衛福部衛福部在這一波裡面你們是話外之地沒有關係"},{"start":5747.474,"end":5764.386,"text":"謝謝委員的垂行 那我想社會的挑戰 國際的挑戰是一波一波的那第一波裡面就沒有藥品這個部分你覺得你們從幾處要講而且我們也不會有缺藥的 也沒有缺藥已經那如果萬一有到藥品的時候 你的錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":5768.189,"end":5790.455,"text":"我相信政府有必要政府就會像今天你會行政院就馬上會給你錢今年一樣能夠給不管是在我們的健保的成長率或者是公務預算的部分我相信政府都會準備好那至於現在就沒有這個問題所以大家也不要過度擔心我們已經都我們要提早做好風險的管控就是因為我們做好提早的準備所以才不用擔心"},{"start":5792.022,"end":5814.507,"text":"你們是連預算都沒有準備所以我才很擔心啦這個我覺得還是要好好的去因應啦現在第一波的時候行政院是沒有想到這一塊所以也沒有給你們錢所以我今天早上已經談很久就是我們不管是在藥品醫材所以我只問你啦如果有衝擊到的時候你的預算從哪裡來880億沒裂魂啦那你的錢要從哪裡來你告訴大家就好"},{"start":5815.305,"end":5836.952,"text":"我想我們就要看他的到底長的量這整個國際的情勢的一個變化我們隨時如果有人家其他部會勞動部也有一百多億就是傳在那裡農業部也有一百多億放在那裡但是衛福部是沒有聽的每一個預算都是有他要去用的地方那我們現在目前在要價這個部分"},{"start":5837.894,"end":5848.665,"text":"這在至少在第一個階段裡面我們目前你們覺得不會受衝擊不是不會受衝擊是足可應付衝擊的那你是用你健保的錢嗎你的錢從哪裡來"},{"start":5854.325,"end":5875.793,"text":"因為健保的成長率今年也比較高,所以我們比較有空間來做成長但如果有必要會去影響到健保,我相信我們政府絕對會沒有把握去增值到預算就對了,但是你現在其實沒有880億是還沒拿到錢因為第一階段不會有影響我要確定的就是這個,好謝謝"},{"start":5880.96,"end":5888.784,"text":"這邊做一個公告,我們到盧縣議委員催省完之後就休息,接下來請林淑雯委員謝謝主席,我們先請邱部長邱部長來"},{"start":5914.011,"end":5917.123,"text":"委員好部長你說到現在為止沒有缺藥漲價之餘這句話說得很快"},{"start":5919.741,"end":5946.031,"text":"我聽到覺得膽戰心驚最好是如此你今天的書面報告裡面直接就講了你們的因應作為對穩定這個藥品的供應的相關機制因應作為第一建立藥品短缺通報處理機制第二個制定必要藥品的清單第三鼓勵業者增加原料來源和儲備建立原料要加速審查機制最後還主動監控國內外藥品的供應我現在要問你第三點第四點"},{"start":5947.472,"end":5971.21,"text":"叫大家囤比較多原料欸這些原料都沒有效期嗎?這一批原料用完了以後如果國際間大家都知道中國和印度如果為了因應美國的這一波關稅的這個調整那他們在原料供應上也漲價呢?或者是沒有機遇漲價自然的供需失衡因為大家都要搶 你要搶大部分人也要搶原料"},{"start":5973.992,"end":5995.696,"text":"在這個供需失衡大量之間瞬間的需求大量增加大家都知道價格一定上漲光是這樣子價格就會上漲你還敢說現在沒有當然現在沒有啊但是未來就有啊所以你來講建立原料要的加速審查機制加速審查跟價格上漲供需失衡這樣的問題有相關嗎你講了這樣子就可以穩定了嗎"},{"start":6000.497,"end":6027.584,"text":"價格上漲以後藥品的價格上漲當然會排擠到整個健保預算所以這一些醫生在擔心的是排擠到他們的點值會下降他們醫院擔心的是藥品的成本上漲這個通通都是一環扣一環非常嚴重的事你制定藥品清單我就不好意思講了以前生理食鹽水之亂生理食鹽水之亂它不是必要的藥品"},{"start":6029.659,"end":6045.377,"text":"你說你們要這個有短缺通報機制然後監控國內外藥品的供應哪一次你們沒有監控啊 我不好意思說你們的鮮血水之亂還不是必要藥品 你就沒得了 有監控就沒得了啊"},{"start":6046.314,"end":6071.865,"text":"哪一次沒有監控完藥品還是短缺啦休暑它的藥品組的監控能力在哪裡連國內藥品都沒有能力監控了現在要監控國外的藥品我們的能力你真的對自己這麼百分之百的自負嗎更不要講光是食鹽水之亂我就提出了一個清單叫你們盤點"},{"start":6073.362,"end":6082.57,"text":"你們盤點了多久啊我說國內藥品 市占不均容易發生原料短缺的藥品名單如果沒有我叫你們去盤點 你們沒有盤點我叫你們盤點 講過幾遍 你清單搞不出來問幾遍啦 搞不出來所以食藥署跟衛福部一直被人家講管理食品也不行 藥品也不行"},{"start":6101.705,"end":6109.249,"text":"現在我更高興的是 保證你第一次跟他說有恃無恐跟他說我都喘得好好的 沒事情沒問題今天你說的這幾項就答非所問了常常出問題 不是沒問題我...我...好啦 我現在從頭問起好了啦"},{"start":6123.656,"end":6130.761,"text":"現在我問你們說光是盤點美國製造的美國當地製造進來的藥品或醫材清單品項數量光是這個喔多少喔 我不懂怎麼說只要你們自己補你今天報告的跟食藥署提供的跟健保署提供的就倒不會罵啦"},{"start":6148.783,"end":6161.232,"text":"倒不會嗎跟他一個數量的盤點你的數據提供出來都不會正確了那我跟他講缺藥的問題缺藥的問題在關稅這個政策以前早就存在了缺藥的問題講多久了沒有美國關稅這個題目我們國內問題就很嚴重了這又不是現在你還說現在都沒問題"},{"start":6178.444,"end":6201.297,"text":"沒有美國關稅這一題 現在問題就很嚴重現在是美國關稅政策的之下會不會更嚴重所以醫改會在講說啊我們高度仰賴進口仰賴美國供應的 特別他指出癌症用藥疫苗聽得清楚 疫苗"},{"start":6203.018,"end":6224.007,"text":"高階醫材 小兒醫材 抗生素等美國供應商常連扮演著關鍵性的角色所以關稅上路這些進口的產品成本一定會上升而最終成本一定轉嫁到民眾身上"},{"start":6225.187,"end":6233.717,"text":"甚至大家都知道會這是剛性需求而你真的沒藥缺藥危及病人的用藥權益知識體大餒知識體大餒"},{"start":6239.628,"end":6265.804,"text":"所以這個我們缺藥是因為我們台灣的市場小 利潤低我們只有單一買家叫健保署仰賴特定供應商那一旦進口變貴或者是供應中斷根本找不到替代品那這對長照的病人特別是兒童長者身障 癌症"},{"start":6267.065,"end":6268.048,"text":"這個衝擊很大 你怎麼會有很多人在問你 你都說要煮成丸丸這樣"},{"start":6273.151,"end":6300.739,"text":"然後健保 健保問題很大捏健保的財務壓力很大捏 緊繃捏你不是說癌症給付的那個幾十億移出去 公務預算給了就沒問題捏他這個財務壓力這麼大壓縮給付醫生擔心的是點子下降可是我們擔心的是病人就醫的權益啊就醫的可敬性會受影響"},{"start":6302.751,"end":6315.978,"text":"所以台灣的健保制度為了財務平衡已經從區域總額已經改到大醫院你要個別醫院總額制了所以各項的醫療給付都受限於總額的管制一旦採購成本上升 藥品成本上升"},{"start":6327.895,"end":6348.681,"text":"他一定會壓縮到醫生的點子要不然就是醫院面臨經營的壓力所以呢 縮減開支 降低禁藥量降低禁藥量也是影響到用藥人耶那你沒有降低禁藥量 全部都轉嫁費用給病患"},{"start":6351.89,"end":6366.834,"text":"欸 你這樣什麼都去掛貨費啊 去部分負擔啊 去大行農莊 去現在再來藥品 這樣是要再去 要再去所以 健保才會這麼困難還要承擔 額外承擔關稅上升的額外成本我跟你說 你不是說 你現在都一句話說沒關係 我們學名藥 國藥國用 國產國藥國用你講得太簡單了"},{"start":6378.459,"end":6380.4,"text":"台灣要做藥學名藥原料都很靠的中國跟印度我們都要中國的比較多中國不會棄價嗎瞬間需求量大增怎麼會不會棄價"},{"start":6395.283,"end":6418.056,"text":"這個影響衝擊最大的很多人其實是有商業保險的 有自費能力的可是更多人是偏鄉的低收入戶人 長期病患的弱勢族群他們首當其衝 他們沒有商業保險醫療領域他是陽剛性需求如果今天癌症用藥缺了 不可能叫病人等兩個月"},{"start":6419.938,"end":6435.927,"text":"是不是 柏定你也說說看 我說這個問題你都認為沒問題嗎報告委員 委員所提的真的都非常的深入跟專業個人表達最大的敬意那你剛剛的問題 其實我們長期在醫藥 醫藥藉 藥藉 醫材藉"},{"start":6442.378,"end":6452.245,"text":"生醫界都一直在努力希望把我們的一個醫療體系長期在努力在長期被詬病長期處理不好長期沒有能力應變沒有一下子就滿分但是我們一定好中在好一直在改善我想這個部分經委員也要珍惜我們國內這些醫藥 醫材 特種"},{"start":6466.575,"end":6474.082,"text":"這麼多同仁在努力的應該給他們鼓勵那我們還做不到的我們繼續來努力他們在期望政府的政策引導他們在期待有政府會做事有政府能帶領有政府可以帶領他們看到到底他們要怎麼應變特別廠商 特別藥商有辦法應變嗎"},{"start":6491.277,"end":6494.499,"text":"我們的政策一直努力守護人民的健康 這是第一個你跟我說 當前仰賴美國進口的藥品和醫材我沒有要跟你說幾張藥證啦"},{"start":6502.967,"end":6510.51,"text":"哪有這麼簡單的 來 你看你報告你說我們現在看到美國的藥品有幾種藥精有幾個品項 這麼簡單喔可替代我沒有要問你啊 我要問你的是無替代性或者是可替代性低 但是使用頻率高的有幾個品項有幾張藥證 有哪些用藥 你現在回答我是不是食藥食肺 還是"},{"start":6531.821,"end":6548.393,"text":"食藥署回答我本人的辦公室這裡有寫啦他說除了罕見疾病14張許可證以外所有的適應症的疾病臨床上都有其他藥品可供替代啦所以他現在在歡樂的說他現在在歡樂的都杞人憂天啦"},{"start":6550.555,"end":6559.517,"text":"我立委現在在問的 都恥人憂天 都沒有那個不可替代除了罕見疾病 這是食藥署給我回答的現在健保署來回答 敢真的這樣食藥署回答林淑芬委員辦公室 她說你放心嘛 美國來的除了罕見疾病 每一種藥都有替代性 都沒有問題"},{"start":6575.054,"end":6597.299,"text":"健保署你回答看看跟委員報告就是我們從健保給付的品項裡頭屬於美國產地進來的大概是176項啦這176項裡面又是屬於這個食藥署的必要藥品清單的是72項那72項裡面最多的是抗腫瘤藥物我現在沒有講那個我現在問你說"},{"start":6598.746,"end":6607.074,"text":"無可替代性或替代性很低但是使用頻率高我不是在問你必要藥品清單歌詐食鹽水之論我就跟你說了一生原料短缺 市占不均你盤點給我看 你們也盤點不出來"},{"start":6619.216,"end":6634.366,"text":"現在我告訴你 美國做的 美國進口進來但是我們不用它 不過沒有替代性或是很少其他國家 其他藥廠在做但是使用頻率高的是哪些藥"},{"start":6635.475,"end":6662.338,"text":"你回答我跟委員報告這個不能用使用頻率來講使用頻率最多的這些什麼降血壓啦糖尿病的藥那個都有可替代最重要就是我剛剛提到的抗腫瘤的藥物因為很多都在專利期以內那這個呢使用頻率不是很高但是卻是必要藥品被我們列進來但是你食藥署講說除了罕見疾病都沒有了都可以有替代"},{"start":6663.666,"end":6681.794,"text":"報告委員那我們特別提到我們盤出來裡面因為我們這邊對於藥證可以確立出來美國廠製造的藥證美國來的藥證是有214張那這214張裡面假如是在專利期裡面又是單獨的他的替代性就很低因為只有他有而已對啊有60種其實"},{"start":6682.994,"end":6700.786,"text":"你回答我的 你們今天在這裡答的跟書面給我資料的跟今天報告的數據都不一樣你們 我們當初跟你索取資料說自美國進口 製造成立為美國的藥品和醫材清單你告訴我們說 食藥署告訴我說藥品清單150張要證 今天講214張你的書面報告寫215張 健保署講176項"},{"start":6709.452,"end":6731.949,"text":"報告委員你可誤會了因為它的替代性如果在專利期內的這張有60張它的可替代性幾乎是等於0因為只有它有你在這裡面告訴我只有14張是不可替代其他都有你的公文書在這裡你說只有14張是不可取代其他都有替代14張是罕病"},{"start":6733.435,"end":6746.396,"text":"你的文字我講除了罕見疾病藥品共14張許可證以外其餘適應症疾病於臨床上有其他藥品可供使用"},{"start":6747.386,"end":6763.367,"text":"你的公文書都沒有講到癌症專利都還沒過期謝謝委員這邊可以有機會我們可以補充一下我的意思是說立委所知林農青菜公共好回答給立委在這裡在講又不一樣"},{"start":6764.984,"end":6778.297,"text":"報告委員吼 我們立委的所思真的都很認真昨天 十多點都江署長還打電話給我說他們前署幾乎都在加班他告訴立委說沒問題啦 沒大事啦 除了罕見經營 十四郎今天你說沒夠感情 六十多個郵 六十種的郵啊建保署長是幾種主席我沒有叫他講 他一直說不知道在說什麼 我也聽不懂"},{"start":6790.557,"end":6808.29,"text":"這樣健保署我現在說的是你們每天都退回去了保證你們不會忘記喔前幾天人家受訪時你表示面對關稅的轉變進口藥品確實是有價格上漲的可能但國內缺藥平台已經非常有經驗健保有因應的制度你剛才在這裡自己說沒有缺藥漲價之餘喔"},{"start":6813.564,"end":6828.504,"text":"你受訪跟在裡面你回答你自己就說不一樣啦現在是沒有缺藥但是漲價是有可能但是我們不要我們已經準備好了所以不用太擔心這樣子你剛才回答你以為王育民說沒有缺藥也沒有漲價之餘欸"},{"start":6831.107,"end":6840.934,"text":"那可能有可能 我的觀念裡面的確是有漲價的可能性我講了早幾次 今天早上我講了好幾次說我一直跟你說 我說了從美國進口的無可替代性或替代性使用替代性低 使用頻率高的藥品和醫材喔這個你們去盤點 到底 雖然有缺藥平台但是即使缺藥平台你們有遇過缺藥的經驗但一直以來缺藥的次數都沒有少過"},{"start":6860.629,"end":6882.582,"text":"你哪來的信心覺得有缺藥平台就不會發生缺藥危機有缺藥的經驗也不代表可以克服缺藥的危機對吧所以健保署署長來進口清單清單中進口藥品有沒有這個我剛剛講的無可替代 可替代性高 使用頻率高的藥品和藥材各有幾項"},{"start":6884.462,"end":6885.464,"text":"剛我提到從美國進來的在這個必要藥品裡面那個是72項啦"},{"start":6892.694,"end":6903.883,"text":"阿裡面又以抗腫瘤的藥物 不可替代的那這些都是專利 我剛剛提到抗腫瘤你說72項 阿實藥署說60項欸不不不 不是不是 這裡面有的可以替代裡面有的像那個什麼抗生素啦 你到底不可替代的幾項啦這是必要藥品裡面72項啦阿不是全部都不可替代有些還是可以替代 我在問你不可替代的啦"},{"start":6916.312,"end":6922.236,"text":"不可替代最主要就是那些腫瘤藥啊我們再把它盤點出來讓用藥人讓醫師未來有心理準備吧癌症病患未來可能會欠藥嗎價格大幅上漲嗎這個我們有調整調價的機制"},{"start":6940.19,"end":6960.318,"text":"食藥署署長你們提供的醫材清單不是藥品醫材初步評估各項醫材上有產品或其他療法可替代所以你們還要跟相關醫學會去確認醫材你們從今天的報告然後川普宣布這個4月4號宣布到現在10天了有沒有完成盤點你們要跟醫學會確認到底有沒有醫材是不可替代的盤點完了沒"},{"start":6967.401,"end":6982.031,"text":"跟委員這邊特別報告因為整個醫材使用裡面絕對的所謂必要性的醫材我們有盤了33支必要性的醫材不可避難所以必要性的醫材裡面我們可以看到其中有235張是來自於美國廠的 登記的"},{"start":6986.334,"end":7000.07,"text":"其中有三項必要性的醫材三項必要性的醫材裡面呢 共用有八張在占比是大概是0.018%是屬於所以只有三項而已 所以只有三項然後可能有八張藥證"},{"start":7003.755,"end":7014.442,"text":"所以只有三項我們現在是談他可能沒有辦法替代的絕對的沒辦法替代對第一線裡面謝謝委員這邊提醒你也應該告訴大家第一線的讓他能夠清楚你要讓醫生知道那你要趕快讓使用這醫產的人知道"},{"start":7021.906,"end":7042.02,"text":"那我現在還要講我最後 我其實還有很多但我現在因為時間的關係所以我就不要講那麼多不論是健保署或食藥署你們去盤點出來以後你們有沒有包含癌症的標靶藥物或是類似治療風濕免疫最常使用的生物製劑這些自費品項的藥點在不在你們盤點的清單裡面自費自費沒有盤沒有盤"},{"start":7050.592,"end":7066.299,"text":"我們盤的當然就是以健保給付為主你知道有多少人需要使用這一些東西嗎所以自費的人政府沒有盤點出來你們難道不應該納入嗎那你們真的面對這個關稅的衝擊漲價原料漲價的衝擊連國內學民藥國內藥廠都受到衝擊了更何況從美國的進口的然後自費的沒有盤"},{"start":7076.883,"end":7088.489,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎現在如果是以標靶要務來看的話我們幾乎都已經納入將近都納入幾戶了啦只是那個幾戶標靶要務將近都納入幾戶幾戶的條件不同啦就是他不是全市一陣子不是啦所以你說的自費指的是我跟你講你知道你賣公共語言來欺騙我們符合資格的納入幾戶不符合資格的也自費再買再用有多少人啊"},{"start":7102.913,"end":7113.94,"text":"有多少人啊你們沒有盤點對這些用藥人應該沒有衝擊而且為什麼還需要自費去用這些生物資訊標靶藥物就是因為要救命啊最急的比人好人還要急的萬一開集青家大餐開這麼多集就是因為要救命然後這一波會不會受到衝擊政府不知道沒有盤點所以"},{"start":7131.846,"end":7151.273,"text":"我們一直在講盤點評估是要談什麼重點為什麼一直提醒你這個是因為這個剛性需求是要救命的救人救命的還有另外一個議題我還來不及講下一次再講你們要真的要認真準備已經講過那只是哪一期用什麼藥其實也都盤點在裡面你今天說的"},{"start":7160.957,"end":7188.718,"text":"要醫材跟他三行癌症的那個只有60項但願如此喔把那些都公佈出來要不要提供給我們讓所有的人都知道用藥癌人用的這醫材人他們要清楚知道自己未來面臨的風險和衝擊是什麼這個只是我今天質詢的第一部分抱歉我還有其他但時間來不及所以就下次再談好謝謝林委謝謝部長來"},{"start":7190.691,"end":7190.771,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7206.828,"end":7215.512,"text":"我請部長,不然部長不會這麼客,時從兩開就好了你先休息一下部長休息一下請時書長他很聰明,不用玩弄阿維也好我們剛才全世界都有一個神經病的川普,不夠大家都氣笑"},{"start":7229.007,"end":7233.529,"text":"無來無去 每天早上進展說一項 吃飯包說一項 睡覺又一項今天還可以說不一樣的"},{"start":7238.383,"end":7265.558,"text":"大家都對他都要洗臉 都沒有意義嘛我講 我們講國內的 先講國內的署長 你現在要跟醫療院所簽約 特款辦法我這段時間觀察齁你跟保定 跟市長來很認真 去弄了很多公務預算進來然後拿了500億左右嘛 今年差不多多了500億不只不只"},{"start":7266.719,"end":7286.297,"text":"我們的那個總額的成長比去年增加530億億但是還有原本去年的總額支應的用公務預算編列110億億然後再加上癌藥基金的50億、癌藥加20億又加了180億億都到位了都到位了所以一共是730億億我感覺你昨天把你10年來要做的工作都在這間要給付完了什麼"},{"start":7292.902,"end":7315.286,"text":"什麼東西欠就說沒關係我現在有錢可以開我現在有錢可以開那上個禮拜質詢的時候我還救了我們醫事室為什麼陳雲委員在門外部立醫院的放射師約聘人員剛剛來報到起薪才三萬多塊三萬多塊喔那你現在說要兩倍"},{"start":7320.883,"end":7342.943,"text":"兩倍是多少?現在兩萬九千多了,兩倍要六萬,有六萬嗎?沒有我媽最喜歡茶,我自己買了,我水、茶、取血取血放射師的薪水差不多四萬五、四萬六,基本薪水然後大小業拿了之後才五萬多塊"},{"start":7343.905,"end":7358.107,"text":"那COVID-19三年每一個月可以拿到一萬塊的津貼因為UGB照片子所以那三年就是說12萬、12萬、12萬、36萬所以現在的放射式也是五、六萬"},{"start":7359.545,"end":7375.33,"text":"所以你說要給人家一份就要六萬塊有的14個師,醫事相關人員,14個師字輩的有困難所以就跳起來了,連王振旭也跳起來了我都不說話,我今天要問你,你現在的態度是什麼"},{"start":7379.776,"end":7407.041,"text":"確實啦 就是說我們今年的預算也比較多也很希望來調整第一線醫護人員的薪資啦所以我們在這個修法裡面希望把它納入大家一起來替第一線人員加薪啦至於說幅度要多少啊倍數怎麼計算啊有沒有這個醫院成績之間的落差我想後面的細節我們都可以再跟大家溝通討論這個只是在草案階段而已診所都嘩嘩叫嘛"},{"start":7407.661,"end":7422.234,"text":"而且我們部長應該感受到基層給他的回饋所以還是要好好的討論討論一下當然我們希望每一個議事人員每一個都領十萬塊我個人覺得從現在開始這兩三年"},{"start":7424.177,"end":7443.437,"text":"醫療院所如果有決議,應該大幅來挑釁醫護人員,因為醫護相關人力是我們的寶貝啦,不然這個人你也是別人擋的。所以我感覺,我眼睛看的差不多就是說,要挑釁,讓他們做得到啦,不然就慘了。"},{"start":7445.459,"end":7459.825,"text":"第二要說的那些福利的,真的我這兩天又接到很多就是像在我們北陰、西陵東那些街坊生小孩現在在騙小孩,現在小孩比較大,在看郵輪、在看國號但是你要叫他回來做負貨攤,沒辦法,他絕對沒辦法,如果叫他做貨攤4點鐘,這樣他沒辦法他還很希望,因為前兩個小孩、前三個小孩,對他來說,一個人的賺錢是不夠的"},{"start":7474.201,"end":7495.827,"text":"所以這個在美國很多啊,美國就是有那個醫管公司啊,人力中介公司,它全部都在登錄下面就一兩百個護理師啊,我很多朋友的太太都在那邊,工作嘛這個很好,收入也不錯,所以這個我等一下算一算應該有五六萬人,保證五六萬人,沒錯"},{"start":7499.108,"end":7516.376,"text":"所以這個醫事相關人力的薪資我是覺得要好好的來研究啦你做補助你跟署長你們兩個有這個委員會有這個管理還有這個機會就要好好來調整啦那如果處理廠職車職應該補助也夠了啦這件比較繁細沒處理多少八百八十萬我看你都沒處理廠啦"},{"start":7527.56,"end":7548.432,"text":"因為環境部長跟我說,讓我去找部長,很難找到,都不想,很厲害。第二個,我們的燃料藥。燃料藥剛剛林淑芬也講了,很多人都講了,我不要再贅述。我們的燃料藥本土開發廠,燃料廠。"},{"start":7550.814,"end":7564.039,"text":"他的製造原料的成本是進口進來的多了40%到50%所以假使我寫的成本你當然也在印度買,也在中國大陸買所以自己要開發,這你要聽手你要給他紋爛,幫他補充,或是小忙幫他補條不然的話這個隨時會打仗,看起來隨時會出問題所以這些原料要長,你要下去盤點"},{"start":7579.944,"end":7598.539,"text":"潘典光對這件事在做,我們就要把他勾勒他要做完之後就不簡單了,因為我們市場太小嘛再來我看到白亞啦,Pfizer啦什麼什麼,里來啦,全部都已經跟川普promise說他們要回去美國設廠這個要投資200億,那個要投資300億,我們不可以真的假啦"},{"start":7605.407,"end":7626.206,"text":"可能會讓我們給川普去送一下真的會到位嗎 我很懷疑那這些 譬如說輝瑞他的廠有在澳大利亞有在馬來西亞 都有去看過這些進來進來台灣就算美國廠的藥還是算澳大利亞來的藥你們現在在盤點的時候我們盤點的話是以他的進口美國製造"},{"start":7632.219,"end":7635.73,"text":"那如果澳大利亞,是澳洲出道的還是馬來西亞,馬來西亞有藏的"},{"start":7637.626,"end":7661.525,"text":"那個我們是看他進來的那個製造地點製造廠啦那個製造廠啦製造廠好所以他的工廠在哪裡你就要送所以你剛才在說的這樣有精確嗎像你美國進來的藥就是那個176項對那個金額好像會有出入啦會不會差不多200億左右啦差不多200億所以也佔了我們"},{"start":7664.989,"end":7670.056,"text":"10%有喔我們大概一年藥費大概在2500億左右所以最後一個問題就是稀產地"},{"start":7672.99,"end":7692.226,"text":"我們昨天一直在講,昨天也在講嘛,好施展地,台南的東西拿來我們家然後這邊轉口賣到美國,MIC變成MIT,會不會這樣我昨天接到一個很大廠的那個醫事商,美國的他說他們不能,他們進到大陸要125%嘛他說他們不能進到台灣來,然後再轉去大陸"},{"start":7698.973,"end":7721.932,"text":"他從美國進來幾乎是零我們這邊去大陸幾乎是零這變成他們在洗我們會不會 這個也有可能所以這個都要很注意好不好我們也很鼓勵在台灣製造啦在台灣製造其實對我們的供應韌性也是可以增強"},{"start":7723.613,"end":7751.501,"text":"十大藥廠世界十大藥廠在20年前都在台灣有設廠現在連一家都沒有全部跑光了為什麼量太少所以就跑到東南亞去跑到中國大陸去這是事實所以一家都沒有現在一家都沒有全部都賣給扁桃藥廠所以這個是知識體大所以跟部長還有署長你們要你們很認真"},{"start":7753.302,"end":7753.502,"text":"請盧委員來做選擇來請部長"},{"start":7777.642,"end":7791.521,"text":"委員好部長好因為前面幾個委員都講到美國的問題了大概這邊還是要提一下民眾的擔憂是剛才講了就是說最受影響就是血液製劑或者是腫瘤製劑跟神經藥品"},{"start":7793.484,"end":7813.053,"text":"那再來我們健保支出的10%上面寫說176項嘛那我想知道說如果真的是增加了關稅的話那我們是不是民眾的負擔使用這些藥品的民眾的負擔增加多少比如說它增加了10%那轉嫁到民眾這邊或者是健保這邊我們有算過一個比例嗎"},{"start":7816.007,"end":7836.178,"text":"有 我們有請健保署去針對他現在的藥物的一個狀況做盤點 可不可以實事掌心跟委員報告 當然我們有掌握這一些藥品的品項啦那未來到底影響會多少 並不知道不過呢 我們在總額裡面有編了一個叫做非預息風險款"},{"start":7837.839,"end":7864.367,"text":"那像去年我們就用在那個輸液上面那我想知道說如果說這些關稅金真正在我們這邊的話我是想知道說一個癌症病人他會增加多少的支出因為我們現在的這個健保裡面有所謂的重大傷病所以癌症的病人基本上都是屬於重大傷病是免部分負擔所以這些是有健保負擔的不會加重這個癌友的負擔好那我知道了"},{"start":7864.867,"end":7891.954,"text":"我剛剛有看到你們的報告裡面說針對我們的罕見疾病增加了20億的一個新藥還有重症的話是增加50億可是我上次有提到一個小朋友就是ITP的部分我想知道說到後續你們有沒有去追蹤或者是去協助解決他的問題就是苗栗的一個原住民小朋友他家境非常清寒家裡有非常多小朋友結果家長每個月的負擔大概3萬塊左右的那個自備藥品"},{"start":7892.774,"end":7918.226,"text":"那我想說 又不列入罕病 又不是重大傷病然後要一直叫這個家庭一直在負擔這個三萬塊每個月三萬塊的一個自費藥品嘛我想 我看到這個二十億增加 五十億增加可是對一個真正看得到 卻用不到的一個原住民家庭我要替他說話 好不好所以這個部分我想 如果就個別來講我想應該要去從中去關心我們這個苗栗的太陽族小朋友"},{"start":7918.866,"end":7924.083,"text":"第二個就是說我們意思原因我剛剛看到的就是剛剛蘇委員講的就兩倍 1.5倍 這個"},{"start":7926.6,"end":7951.562,"text":"你們當初的利益是什麼?是為了要增加我們醫護人員的薪水嗎?對對對,原本也是希望說因為今年的總額的整個成長啊預算都是過去增加很多對,可是這個離職潮有被解決了嗎?目前我們當然想說希望調高薪資是留人的一個很重要的工具啦所以我們就提出這個想法可是你們一推出這個很多人都反彈啊那接下來你們要怎麼辦?"},{"start":7952.646,"end":7977.112,"text":"當然這個是我們的草案啦那個還是會持續的跟大家來溝通那部長也特別昨天已經提到短期來說要解決護理人員離職草是不是應該有邊公務預算讓他們的薪資馬上就增加呢有有有另外也有邊公務預算是嗎有有有 有六十幾億大概什麼時候會到位已經第一波的話理論上應該在四月底五月初就會下去了"},{"start":7977.503,"end":8003.888,"text":"好那我就今天的一個新聞看到個別醫院的總和製度來就教一下這600塊的那個診察費的一個依據或者是說有沒有除了600元以外有沒有其他的不一樣比如說你說就診察費增加到600塊第二個就是說我們的慢性脂肪腺從上個月背到半年第三個是部分負擔可能要調整或是說轉診制度的這個因為我想知道這600元只是單純的600元嗎有沒有別的一個"},{"start":8005.128,"end":8026.782,"text":"因為跟委員報告這個只是還在討論當中主要是針對我們目前在醫院的醫師的診察費不論這個難易啦 時間花多少都是一樣所以就是說診所也要增加然後地區醫院也要增加而不是只有在醫院是600元然後是不是應該是pay for performance而不是pay for service這個部分"},{"start":8027.082,"end":8042.464,"text":"那在這個診所的部分因為這兩個是不同的總額所以我們分開去討論診所的部分因為過去呢有所謂的合理門診量他的概念其實也是這個類似如果說超過50人以後是不是你這個600元也是要遞減是有這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":8043.505,"end":8053.433,"text":"因為在醫院裡面我們希望朝向醫學中心最後以轉診為主所以不會去用合理的診療這個今年就要實施嗎應該是下半年的時候也就是悶性磁發性會變到半年"},{"start":8058.176,"end":8076.584,"text":"這個都要繼續討論希望能夠延長那按照這個醫師的判斷跟病人的病情那部分負擔的部分能不能就是早點讓國人知道說他以後到醫學中心的部分負擔會是多少會會會好 針對第四個就是說缺藥的問題就是當然是常說是30年來最大的問題"},{"start":8077.324,"end":8098.791,"text":"那我們有建議的議題就是希望是不是把它的期限能夠用場是不是看一下藥品的穩定供應它有一個八大藥業供應協會的建議希望能夠看看我們下一頁是不是能夠從我們的放寬採購藥品的效期來看看來做改進"},{"start":8100.267,"end":8124.642,"text":"好 這個部分部立院醫護會的林執行長剛剛已經回應是不是再跟委員說明一下有關這個校期 各位再報告其實我們是26家部立院其實我們有一個叫做藥品聯標委員會那不只是我們醫院還有全國18個縣市衛生局跟衛生所的聯標用藥那我們都是8個院有沒有可能放寬"},{"start":8125.642,"end":8151.467,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們在所有的體系裡面包含教育部 退輔會 軍方 還有司令他們都是八個月以上那當然這個部分其實考量特別是偏鄉離島剛提到的我們的醫院那另外是衛生局所其實他們藥師人力都非常有限如果說把它降低的話其實會增加他們的一個行政的那個loading所以其實我們也有接到一些醫院的藥師包含那個藥局主任都說如果這樣增加他們的loading會讓他們會覺得是"},{"start":8153.927,"end":8176.826,"text":"壓力增加反而會促成他們離職 要失離職那當然我們還是有考量在這塊裡面如果真的有缺藥我們會有一個機制就是所謂的安全的存量這塊那其實我們在14天裡面如果真的有缺藥我們會再盡量再跟我們的FDA在裡面所謂的庫存的相關的一些所以我這邊才會提出希望能夠放寬它的效期"},{"start":8177.466,"end":8205.385,"text":"是 有好 最後一個問題就是請問部長就是關於偏鄉地區就是我上次一直在提的我們花林縣南區就是玉里鎮附近周圍還有我們海縣就是海岸山脈那邊如果發生心導管需要心導管手術或是洗腎這個部分的盤點有沒有這個量能或者說不管有沒有這個量能應該提供這方面的一個醫療的一個準備那我想知道到底有沒有在規劃或者是有沒有一個時間表"},{"start":8207.513,"end":8212.725,"text":"讓在那個地方的民眾在生活上有一個安全感好 謝謝委員 委員的"},{"start":8214.628,"end":8240.057,"text":"前一陣子有質詢我們義務會其實有去做了解我們在這塊裡面會評估那當然育理醫院是一個精神專科醫院所以他在設置標準裡面是沒有這個所謂的精神科以外的但我們可以思考就是在這個部分裡面其實他們有些慢性疾病比如說洗腎這塊其實我們可以連結旁邊的農民育理醫院這個部分其實我是希望能夠早點因為他畢竟是我們退伏會的醫院"},{"start":8240.757,"end":8259.345,"text":"然後如果說有不利院這邊來協助看看能不能把我們的心臟科的專科醫師能夠留在那裡第二個就是我上次去牡丹鄉的時候遇到一個事情就是說他是在假日發生的一個車禍他的住宅住家會發生的地點剛好在衛生所前面然後結果發生車禍了"},{"start":8260.465,"end":8279.06,"text":"結果一般的民眾會看到救護車明明就在他的眼前可是當下發生的時候是假日所以說衛生所的回應說沒有時機所以救護車不能開那里當要有119來送119在哪裡呢他的距離衛生所的距離要開車28分鐘才會到也就是說這個民眾他發"},{"start":8285.385,"end":8305.809,"text":"發生的當下當然可能是比較嚴重然後家屬在眼睜睜看著救護車然後抱著他的母親就看著他母親慢慢斷氣也就是說在救護車到了以後其實他母親已經呈現O卡的現象了那我現在要提出這個問題就是說明明救護車就在他眼前"},{"start":8306.289,"end":8334.75,"text":"然后卫生所就在他前面可是却没有办法在当下有人去可以开这副车当然那是因为有他的所谓的法律的责任所以我的意思就是希望在偏远地区的救护车如果你有救护车的编制应该就要有人力来提供比如说假日的值班或者说12小时或20小时那个轮子才不造成当地明明有救护车却没有救护车可以用的一个状况"},{"start":8335.41,"end":8341.5,"text":"可以嗎 部長我想我們偏鄉的醫療 真的是我們"},{"start":8342.813,"end":8367.567,"text":"非常希望去把它做好,也是我們在這些年來,從幾十年來我當住院醫師的時候就常常在偏鄉服務,完全了解到偏鄉的一個困難那當然我們也不斷的有醫療網的計畫,還有偏鄉醫療的提升計畫這個部分如果有剛剛您講的這些切動的話,我們一定去了解,盡量來改善"},{"start":8367.847,"end":8373.156,"text":"那就麻煩部長再去多關心一下偏遠地區好謝謝好謝謝盧委員謝謝部長來我們現在休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8405.466,"end":8406.347,"text":"好好好"},{"start":9080.373,"end":9097.136,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請楊耀委員來做詢答謝謝主席 主席我請一下邱部長請部長江署長委員長部長早 署長早"},{"start":9106.912,"end":9130.48,"text":"我們根據經濟部今年1月份的新聞稿指出在113年也是去年我們的醫療器材業出口大概有25.4億美元那出口的地區美國大概就佔了將近三成"},{"start":9132.955,"end":9136.097,"text":"製藥業112年這個兩個年度的數據的年度是不同的112年的出口產值製藥業大概是18億"},{"start":9148.055,"end":9166.013,"text":"美國大概沾了四成所以因為現在受到美國關稅政策的影響除了醫療器材製藥業以外衛福部是不是有盤點其他衛福部主管受到衝擊的產業清單"},{"start":9168.755,"end":9195.294,"text":"有 我們一有這個政策川普宣布這個政策以後我們就衛福部所有司署全部盤點包括連我們的長照的府紀會不會受到怎麼樣的影響我們都站在人民的角度來看看會影響到城市那一個一個都有盤點以及都有請各司署提出一個因應的建議好"},{"start":9196.155,"end":9223.561,"text":"那是不是有跟經濟部等相關機關做聯繫協調相關產業的因應對策有沒有包委員那個因為我們自己的一個盤點以及我們跟我們的各自的產業的了解現在還在盤點中那如果需要跟其他部會做互動的話除了在"},{"start":9225.277,"end":9241.155,"text":"談判小組我們當成一個專業的幕僚提供一些專業的科學的以及我們的狀況給幕僚在那邊可能有彼此的互動以外我們等我們盤點到清楚會再跟經濟部"},{"start":9243.414,"end":9266.346,"text":"來攜手來看看有哪些需要他們來幫忙也就是說現在現在只到盤點的受到衝擊產業的盤點沒有新一步的我們這個盤點已經是先預先修了因為現在還沒有到幾乎還沒有到衛福部的所有的藥品醫材反而"},{"start":9267.446,"end":9272.836,"text":"美國進口給我們還比較多但是我們還是一定要做好準備"},{"start":9275.14,"end":9301.601,"text":"所以因應對策就是你們已經先備足了資料因為美國關稅政策是一個動態的過程所以相關的資料衛福部這邊會先備足謝謝委員的關心我們都需要跨部位因應的時候才不會措手不及當然是 謝謝"},{"start":9303.162,"end":9325.091,"text":"財政部曾經表示過我們的健康食品的進口稅率是30%那他們要延逸分年分階段逐步調降為了要降低我國"},{"start":9327.833,"end":9330.195,"text":"保健食品產業的衝擊經濟部的建議對國內製造團因為國內也有一些保健食品的製造業適度鬆綁國內"},{"start":9342.924,"end":9366.749,"text":"食品管理的相關法規在確保食安的前提下怎麼完善產業經濟環境衛福部這邊有沒有什麼看法我想這是一個一直在談論的議題啦就中間怎麼樣利弊得失當然會做更精密的一個分析那是不是我先"},{"start":9368.829,"end":9375.012,"text":"有關於國內的所謂的保健相關的食品的那整個的產值膠囊定狀的那經濟部盤出來跟我們這邊盤出來的大概是將近400多接近500億"},{"start":9390.18,"end":9413.118,"text":"那由於這樣子的在生產完之後我們銷往美國的量其實只有上百萬美金這樣的量其實相當相當的少可是相對的我們看到所謂的保健食品的這些產線跟我們的製藥的產線GMP的產線其實有時候是平行同一個產面生產"},{"start":9414.079,"end":9438.884,"text":"在關稅在食品那一端我們看到的是反而是希望有機會導引整個台灣的學民的用藥達到自給自足的方向更能夠去滿足那因為我們看到的是這次本身的食品這個保健相關食品的是因為藥物的衝擊下來食品的關稅衝擊下來相對它的利潤如果我們能夠往這邊倒"},{"start":9440.464,"end":9459.816,"text":"那食藥署這邊針對學民藥的發展其實積極的在處理跟我們的東南亞國協達成的GMP廠之間的監管上面的一致性所以我們的學民藥的藥廠它有這個機會產出的學民藥直接在東南亞就可以被認可"},{"start":9460.837,"end":9480.656,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣子的已經完成了這樣的對接除了這以外呢我們在面對這藥物的攻擊的過程中那全世界都面臨這個藥物韌性的議題在歐盟EMA的向下呢也有所謂的歐盟的關鍵用藥的一些法案"},{"start":9481.776,"end":9500.845,"text":"這個法案因為也在食藥署的努力之下跟歐盟這邊一馬做了一些對接之後我們這邊的藥物也有機會能夠直接在那邊成為關鍵用藥裡面被認列因此我們發現這一個學名藥的產線以及它發展的方向"},{"start":9501.505,"end":9522.165,"text":"其實可以更為多元那因為我們的對接讓這樣子的一個產線國內的意願我們這個歐盟的部分呢其實有三家廠商其實非常積極的做鏈接我們希望把這個訊息也跟工協會能夠更討論那我自二月份上任以來其實跟藥品界食品界等等的工協會做了完整的溝通"},{"start":9522.945,"end":9543.402,"text":"也把他們的訴求我們都積極的也把相關的訊息給他們那現在我們持續在做的是我們國內的所謂藥物自給自足公藥的一個基礎的功能底下我們持續在增加我們的藥物韌性也謝謝委員的一些關心 以上說明好 謝謝署長很詳細的說明就是我們的藥物韌性"},{"start":9547.265,"end":9567.013,"text":"不只要安全而且必須要跟國際接軌我們必須要確保國內的廠商可以在國際有競爭力對不對部長我時間的關係所以我最後有一個"},{"start":9567.973,"end":9579.319,"text":"有一個澎湖的問題就讓部長可能也沒有辦法回答答覆就是全國各縣市的早療兒童通報率都在提升"},{"start":9592.54,"end":9621.439,"text":"代表地方政府其實是很積極的在尋找發展遲緩的兒童那這個早期發現 早期治療要避免錯過黃金治癒澎湖縣反而是是早療兒童通報率唯一退步的縣市那我知道澎湖就是評估的量能不足這個第一第二就是澎湖"},{"start":9622.915,"end":9645.319,"text":"有住人的島嶼就有19個所以確實是一件很困難的事情那它的聯絡評估中心也只有一家醫院我這邊建議一下就是你們會後再跟我討論一下可是我還是必須要在這邊講就是說我們"},{"start":9649.502,"end":9674.444,"text":"有沒有辦法透過因為現在澎湖縣有打算澎湖縣政府有打算要成立第二家那這個是一件很困難的事情這個問題在澎湖縣存在很久有沒有可能用演劇醫療的方式來代替副處長有沒有"},{"start":9676.239,"end":9679.79,"text":"因為北一已經有去欺美做過一次"},{"start":9683.75,"end":9708.101,"text":"請護士長報告委員,北醫那個是外展他們就是北醫他去外展,我們給他們有外展的費用那的確澎湖現在想要努力我們昨天也跟澎湖衛生局的局長討論就是說看是部棚或軍棚可以再幫忙成立第二個聯合評估中心那未來的確會在乘坐費還有所謂的評估報告費看是不是偏鄉離島比較特殊的需求會再做一個討論我覺得這個費用"},{"start":9712.583,"end":9732.937,"text":"不多給澎湖一些是真的不行因為它人口實在是散佈在海中太多了啦太多點所以費用的部分我們來想辦法反而比較小勢我覺得是人力"},{"start":9734.437,"end":9756.942,"text":"這問題比較是問題好不好這個麻煩你們待會去做個詳細的研究好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝在這邊做公告等一下帶王振興委員詢答結束之後來處理臨時提案接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢答"},{"start":9773.688,"end":9775.969,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們邱部長委員好部長好部長第一個我想要請問一下這次這個有關於美國對於關稅的事件然後他其實有提到"},{"start":9794.042,"end":9821.864,"text":"有關於這個非關稅的貿易障礙那它裡面有提到說所謂的這個食品相關的問題那所以在我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第二四條有規定到這個部分就是說在基改食品的標示等等的所以我想要請教一下如果接下來的談判我是不是可以請部長這裡是不是可以宣示不會因為這個事件來犧牲國人的食品安全"},{"start":9822.833,"end":9845.644,"text":"因為不只是這個部分還有包含學校衛生法其實都有提到相關的事情那看起來他除了關稅的部分他就是特別要求這一塊那這也是很重要的一塊但是我在這裡希望部長可以宣示而且也可以告訴國人你不會犧牲我們的這個人民和民眾百姓或是學生的這種食品安全的部分"},{"start":9846.445,"end":9864.112,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行我想我們政府以及衛福部就是為人民健康一直日夜在努力的所以我想我們絕對堅持以人民健康維護的為最大的指導原則那至於在各種"},{"start":9865.433,"end":9890.824,"text":"各種政策的擬定當然最重要就是要有科學根據的分析科學分析的一個根據所以部長你等於是宣示說不會犧牲國人的安全在這次的貿民會一切會按照風險的評估跟科學的一個根據來做專業的建議好謝謝那所以部長您是宣示就是不會犧牲國人安全對不對我們絕對站在人民的健康維護"},{"start":9892.004,"end":9917.613,"text":"為最高的原則好謝謝來那部長下一個題目我想要請問一下請教一下我們健康台灣推動委員會在去年的8月22號的時候召開了第一次委員會那部長您當天報告事項的簡報其中有提到優化醫療環境然後確保全民健康十大策略中的第六點也就是檢討健保藥品政策扶植國內的製藥產業"},{"start":9919.522,"end":9946.963,"text":"那另外在報告事項的二是健保永續改革及優化那會議記錄中也提到賴總統自己也提到政府會繼續努力讓台灣的藥品工藝無論是品質或者是供應鏈的韌性都能夠不斷的提升那請教部長這些簡報資料跟賴總統的講話是否還算數還是會如同這次賴總統在福倫社的年會上面說的事後故意拿掉這吃苦當吃補這句話"},{"start":9948.479,"end":9967.584,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心健康台灣的一個推動也敬佩委員這麼了解到我們提到的一些重點那我跟委員報告說你剛剛所提的幾點我們都說到做到包括健保的改革在大家委員們的努力以及行政院的幫忙好 謝謝部長說到做到"},{"start":9969.986,"end":9987.082,"text":"然後有關藥品這個部分我想我們那個健保署馬上擬定兩大政策那部長沒問題我就繼續講這一部分在穩定這個藥品供應鏈的事情上反正你說說都要做到但是本席其實在去年3月的時候就已經曾經在這裡做出組決議"},{"start":9988.183,"end":10007.736,"text":"那當時是主要是為了避免缺藥後來衛福部跟健保署也接受就是修正後納入藥價改革的辦法之中那健保署供你會議其實在8月中就通過了那本席在10月9號質詢的時候也問說何時會預告那結果其實後來是拖到了11月19日衛福部才預告"},{"start":10009.997,"end":10023.868,"text":"然後再來就是1月22日的預告截止後那到現在又過了三個月那這個要價改革也是健保改革中的一個重點之一那當然不僅是健保財務上的考量還有避免缺藥的風險"},{"start":10025.129,"end":10045.364,"text":"那更重要的是在國際跟這些區域情勢不穩定的情況之下其實各國都是注意這個所謂的藥品的穩定供應都是在強化這個部分那剛剛也講到你們在健康台灣政策裡面有提到要鼓勵在台製造國藥國用才能夠避免缺藥危機變成國安風險可是"},{"start":10047.345,"end":10063.255,"text":"這個部分就是拖了很久沒有公告我想要請問到底是什麼原因是因為台灣價值不夠嗎還是賴總統所謂的這個宣誓都是口號呢為什麼這件事情是一拖二拖三拖那在今天的報告當中你們是有提到預計本月會公告"},{"start":10063.815,"end":10091.389,"text":"那4月27日即將要舉辦這個健康台灣的全國論壇請問能否在4月27號之前這個舉辦健康台灣論壇之前公告那我想要提醒一下部長因為這個藥物的給付項目跟支付標準的供你會議作業辦法的第4跟第6條你們今年2月13號其實就預告了那7天後的2月20號就預告終止然後再過15天就正式公告"},{"start":10091.869,"end":10107.454,"text":"所以整個法規其實從預告到公告是不到一個月就公告實行所以如果這些要價改革如果再沒有在4月27號前公告不就是證明你們是有沒有雙標或者是沒有這個好好的執行我想要請問一下"},{"start":10108.154,"end":10132.677,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行那我必須要說明一下預告兩個月以後叫1月20左右嘛那其實有不少的意見那這兩個政策是對於未來國內製藥還有我們的產業鏈非常重要這兩個政策也是委員你一直在關心的所以要面面俱到 希望不要說走下去還要改所以我想感謝健保署的同仁可以說是針對這個"},{"start":10134.678,"end":10155.724,"text":"這兩個政策非常的用心在研擬那應該也部長是4月27號以前確定可以公告嗎有說到做到嗎我想很快的健保署就會送到部裡面我們會用最快的速度應該在4月27號以前我們盡量完成自慢在4月底以前會公告"},{"start":10156.324,"end":10172.34,"text":"那部長要拜託你說到做到希望在4.27以前公告不然你健康台灣的時候要講些什麼對不對這個部分就會漏掉我們要講的非常的多當然很多當然很多我相信我相信但是我說這是其中一塊因為這個拖了很久這個的確一定要做因為我先說明一下真的也沒有拖很久"},{"start":10173.922,"end":10193.595,"text":"您剛剛把整個時序弄出來其實那個都是要做很詳盡的討論好沒關係我再問下一題1月20號到現在才有一段時間部長希望就是4月底前說到做到我想署長也說沒問題我知道大家都辛苦了但是希望可以說到做到"},{"start":10194.696,"end":10212.361,"text":"部長這個醫藥品跟醫材的供應鏈穩定性很重要嘛我相信你們都就是拼拼點頭那萬一戰爭發生時藥品的自主這件事情就會變得極度的重要所以我想要請問一下目前衛福部為了供應穩定性有沒有哪些更具體的作為"},{"start":10213.001,"end":10232.281,"text":"到目前為止有編列什麼預算或經費維持這個供應鏈穩定性嗎因為我想問一下我想跟部長說一下像美國呢已經啟動對於藥品跟其原料進口的國安調查對不對那將涵蓋所謂的學名藥非學名藥成品跟生產這些藥物所需要的原料跟關鍵成分"},{"start":10233.522,"end":10243.871,"text":"那部長他們在啟動調查當然是為了現在的關稅嘛要加徵關稅的部分但是在我們國家的部分我們可能要為了避免戰爭風險是不是應該也要進行所謂的這個藥品的國安調查那"},{"start":10249.035,"end":10276.816,"text":"就是除了這個穩定供應鏈的這個量之外這個值也要有韌性所以否則就會發生劣幣趨良幣的情況所以根據我想要講的事情就是第一個是不是應該也要啟動國安調查這第一個第二個就是說我們在2022年這個進出口的統計裡面2022到2023原料要進口國的前五名分別是中國大陸、日本、印度、義大利跟南韓"},{"start":10277.765,"end":10292.742,"text":"那中國大陸的部分都有30億以上那第二名是日本但是是第二名的日本的三倍以上所以政策上是不是也應該要更具體的去鼓勵藥廠尋求原料藥的第二國的供應來源"},{"start":10294.352,"end":10309.651,"text":"是不是應該要這樣子所以大家都知道中國大陸跟印度是原料藥的主要輸出國所以但是當我們如果要減少來自中國大陸的原料藥的時候就必須要先盤點那也應該要更具體的鼓勵這個藥商尋找第二原料藥的供應來源"},{"start":10310.532,"end":10334.128,"text":"那我想要問的就是說第一個剛剛有說要國安調查第二個就是除了口頭的鼓勵之外有沒有更實質的作為啊比如說在藥價上面的給藥價政策上面的給予優惠那讓廠商願意尋求這個原料藥的第二個來源那因為其實今天你們的報告裡面啊是提到的是說建立原料藥的加速審查機制啊"},{"start":10334.528,"end":10355.219,"text":"那我覺得這的確是一個很好的方式沒有錯但是我覺得這個誘因究竟夠不夠所以想要請教部長這部分是不是這兩個題目好謝謝委員那因為這個有關於剛好上有食藥署然後下有健保署由他們檢要的來把你串聯跟委員報告一下好了"},{"start":10357.802,"end":10377.648,"text":"報告委員 針對現在提到的原料藥的部分以及我們藥物的韌性這一段那我們分成平時跟潛在的暫時的會有不一樣的想法我們平時我們在這一次在去年年底盤到二月份已經確立下來有584種的所謂的必要藥品"},{"start":10378.268,"end":10401.426,"text":"那我們針對必要藥品也在這一次美國關稅的議題之下我們特別去盤了一下關稅議題上可能會看到的這些必要的藥品如果針對是美國這個單一個美國來提的話那大概製造在美國大概有214張因為我們盤的是在所謂的許可證的部分那我們剛才也特別提到有60"},{"start":10403.128,"end":10423.647,"text":"這樣裡面呢是屬於真的是完全美國製造的所以我們會讓大家知道我們初步了解這個必要的藥品第一個584種加下來接下來是美國這一次的衝擊底下那第二個部分是針對所謂可潛在的有的暫時的一個必要的藥品那藥物的韌性的部分我們希望在那個瞬間"},{"start":10424.488,"end":10438.447,"text":"我們希望未來有更高強度的機會可能也需要各位委員們的一個協助因為要有很強烈法源的依據如果在暫時有一個徵召的這樣子的一個機會才能夠去讓我們台灣的"},{"start":10440.949,"end":10466.578,"text":"製藥的部分我們有25種是必要的藥品的但是這個部分我主要還是針對說現在我們的原料藥的進口這個大陸的部分大多數來自於中國大陸的部分那是不是應該要更有具體的這個政策去誘引去鼓勵這些去開拓第二來源國我剛剛想要問的是這個那您剛剛講的我都我可以理解喔你說有這個關稅的應對可是其實我的問題是這個"},{"start":10468.038,"end":10490.331,"text":"就接下來原料料這個特定的部分我們知道中國印度其實一直是以價格取勝那國內的原料料它本身的產值我們知道整個的原料料是大概1.75億的出口的一個狀況那我們可以進口的部分是2.3億那它本身產值其實是小的"},{"start":10490.97,"end":10505.921,"text":"那在原料藥它的特殊性是它本身高污染所以我們希望能夠我們也希望會積極的鼓勵能夠在不同的方式對我就是講這個就是要積極的鼓勵是不是不要只是口頭鼓勵你又沒有什麼實質的比如說藥價偵測的作為"},{"start":10507.362,"end":10524.378,"text":"因為我要提醒因為時間關係我要提醒署長因為藥品可能不同於一般的商品嘛所以不太可能說時間到了或是戰爭到了我再去做這個準備我們現在在提早就是因應嘛提早在講的這個政策就是希望可以提早因應讓他們提早有準備第二個原料果"},{"start":10524.958,"end":10552.304,"text":"所以我是希望這個部分應該是要透過政策有更具體的誘因這樣才可以確保提早準備而且確保國人的用藥的健康的權益跟委員報告在這一次我們委員關心的藥品的支付標準修正裡面我們也加了這個如果使用台灣的原料藥的話產地是台灣的原料藥我們藥價加4%另外的譬如說其他部分的來源國有沒有需要再鼓勵"},{"start":10553.726,"end":10567.543,"text":"我們是以在地為優先在地優先嘛那好那在地優先之外如果說在地短時間做不到的情況之下你可能也要去盤點他有沒有其他誘因要從其他國家進來我覺得這部分也也可以請這個署長去研擬一下"},{"start":10570.467,"end":10593.59,"text":"那另外最後一題就是國健署的癌症篩檢是降低癌症死亡率我覺得很重要的關鍵但是並非每一種癌症都適合篩檢或是有篩檢技術那現在公費的篩檢有五種那分別是口腔癌對不對乳癌大腸癌子宮頸癌跟肺癌那當然胃癌是在這個所謂的公費篩檢算是在事半計畫"},{"start":10594.854,"end":10608.132,"text":"研究也有顯示50%到90%的胃癌可以歸因於幽門螺旋桿菌的感染國內20歲以上幽門螺旋桿菌感染的標準化盛行率大概是32%主要當然包含"},{"start":10610.034,"end":10635.074,"text":"經口傳染、飲水食物等等所以其實基本上我們要根絕胃癌就是基本上要根絕幽門螺旋桿菌所以我想要請教部長就是說從這個癌登報告中可以看出107年開始每一年的胃癌都是癌症死亡率的第八名我想要問的是說明年是不是可以我也想要在這裡爭取是不是將胃癌篩檢正式列為第六種公費篩檢"},{"start":10636.135,"end":10656.158,"text":"那現在事辦計畫大概是45到75歲族群那去年是9個縣市共有9個縣市今年是17個縣市參與所以明年全台20個縣市應該都可以納入那我想要請教部長因為行政部門現在在編列明年的預算那公費胃癌的篩檢的費用是否已經編列進去有編列進去好謝謝部長"},{"start":10666.467,"end":10694.732,"text":"剛剛委員跟委員報告的確今年是已經有17個縣市那其實我們各縣市大概都跟他們報告說會在明年全國全國開辦啦對所以就是一樣是45歲到74歲的國人通通可以好謝謝所以跟委員報告其實我們也鼓勵國人自費篩檢所以如果我們是自費篩檢出來吹氣也好或者是糞便的抗原的檢查出來那麼有陽性的那健保也給付這個除菌的這個藥費"},{"start":10696.599,"end":10716.27,"text":"好 謝謝部長我這邊也要爭取也要建議反正有鑒於現在癌症的年輕化的趨勢所以我覺得不僅將這個胃癌列為第六種的癌別的公費篩檢也最好是比照大腸癌補助45到74歲的民眾40歲到44歲具有家族病史的民眾每兩年一次好不好"},{"start":10717.608,"end":10737.304,"text":"好我們檢討不過如果查出來是陽性的話一般來講就會就等於是殺那一次就OK了啦他出鏡的效果很好所以他的聯賭我們可以再討論好先請部長回去再演繹一下我們再演繹謝謝好謝謝六位謝謝部長主長謝謝接下來請王振旭委員來做選答"},{"start":10746.812,"end":10748.838,"text":"謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長"},{"start":10754.877,"end":10783.396,"text":"今天有聽到你那個很完整的報告那我們也知道這次關稅的議題引起這麼大的衝擊美國其實在許可證的部分佔的並不多只有佔了1.86%不過前三大列裡面我們所知道的就是包括人體血液製劑抗腫瘤藥品還有神經系統用藥有一些單價真的是非常高"},{"start":10784.276,"end":10810.654,"text":"所以到底衝擊會如何我們可能還是要小心應應不過我想就其他議題我們就逐一的來跟部長討論請教一下包括這個產業的穩定供應還有房息產地有沒有機會透過這個危機來創造轉機這是我們非常期待一開始我們還是先關心一下世界各國其實都非常挺台灣"},{"start":10811.974,"end":10836.251,"text":"來參與世界衛生大會今年5月19號會在Zenewa舉行那這部分之前部長也接受了媒體的訪問也發表一些準備的部分的一些資訊給大家做參考那這部分不知道部長有沒有要利用這個機會在稍微做一些說明包括世界各國的各個不同的這個領域的"},{"start":10838.032,"end":10849.722,"text":"國家或者是跟我們理念相同的這些地方跟我們加入這個WHA這個大會的一個支持的部分可不可以請部長稍微再說明一下"},{"start":10850.578,"end":10867.057,"text":"好的,非常感謝我們王勝旭委員問這個題目,那也感謝王委員去年參加立委的市導團,真的他的辛苦度不輸我們的衛福部這個叫做行動團"},{"start":10869.299,"end":10889.736,"text":"異位行動團真的非常的辛苦我們共同的目的就是利用那個WHA這個短短的一個禮拜當中怎麼樣去創造這個機會跟各國來做互動所以有明的也有私下的像我們就跟可能有幾十個國家"},{"start":10891.016,"end":10909.201,"text":"衛福部的長官們做雙方的一個互動其實都因為這樣的互動建立了很好的關係這個非常重要當然現在委員去做國會的外交"},{"start":10909.941,"end":10921.382,"text":"也讓瑞士的國會跟其他如果有過去的國會議員有對台灣更多的了解跟支持特別感謝的就是說像去年我們可能有"},{"start":10922.816,"end":10941.825,"text":"近百個來自行政及立法部門專業議會團體智庫協會、意見領袖及公民社會特別像年輕的醫學生又組團過去所以大家共同把WHA把台灣的一個人民照顧的權益"},{"start":10942.925,"end":10963.615,"text":"雖然我們一年365天都在做努力但是在那個時機是我們在日元瓦把它展現出來那裡面也有開不少一個專業的論壇所以我想今年我們雖然經費少了很多但是我們還是一樣希望能夠維持這樣的一個努力的量能"},{"start":10964.971,"end":10988.227,"text":"來幫台灣在國際化上是而且這一次我們前副總統也會去參與的同時也會發表重要的演講我們很期待大家都能夠更了解台灣透過這個管道可以讓全球看到台灣在做相關衛生行政各方面針對民眾健康福祉的一個努力"},{"start":10989.347,"end":11007.554,"text":"我們從總統府到行政院都很重視這樣的一個國際活動不過聽說明年美国就不參加了因為今年還要參加啦所以我覺得我們該做的還是要做因為畢竟很難得的機會我想我們還是"},{"start":11008.934,"end":11031.249,"text":"我們不是說完全WHO的問題而是我們是理念相近國家的一個互動這是一個很難得的機會明年再相機行事再過來就是我們看到今天的報告裡面針對藥品醫材的這個穩定供應的策略就包括這四大項大家已經都討論很多那我們也了解其實除了這些藥品醫材以外"},{"start":11032.15,"end":11056.584,"text":"有兩個部分可能要特別麻煩部長再說明的更清楚一點尤其是針對血液製劑還有疫苗 疫苗剛才都沒有說到這部分有沒有特別要再加強那個疫苗我們當然做好準備而且它都長期 很多都是長期簽約的基本上我們都有去盤點是不是要請那個集管署莊仁祥署長先跟委員報告"},{"start":11057.364,"end":11080.793,"text":"疫苗的事情那有關疫苗的部分其實我們目前其實都是多是長年的合約啦那而且大部分都也大部分都不是美國廠的那另外這個因為我們買公費疫苗其實我們的關稅也都是零啦這個部分這個我們也會嘗試就是說針對多多年的合約然後多家的這個"},{"start":11081.733,"end":11106.038,"text":"和的廠商來一起來來購置這個疫苗所以我們在短暫的這個預期是目前是不會有什麼太大的影響以上是好所以民眾是可以放心不過國產疫苗他對於整體的這些防疫各方面也有他的重要性所以我了解有這樣的方向正在努力我們有成立這個疫苗"},{"start":11108.119,"end":11129.801,"text":"產業推動的一個小組在健康臺灣推動委員會正在執行來扶植我們特別是國內的疫苗的產業保護人民的健康那至於血液製劑是不是容我給江署長有關於我們血液製劑因為有國血國用的一些政策在"},{"start":11130.462,"end":11153.015,"text":"所以我們以目前的狀況特別是在我們的IVIG的部分我們使用的從九成現在是五成是國內的白蛋白的部分也占了一定的比例至於凝血因子的部分因為已經改用基因工程的方式來生產所以在國血國用的狀況特別血漿的部分我們目前是五萬公升的血漿"},{"start":11153.755,"end":11172.12,"text":"那正在找希望找第二個代工廠能夠把它提升到10萬公升的血漿的供給量對於血源的不足的部分我們也修正了捐血的健康標準的部分我們從原來的年齡上限從65歲提升到70歲所以總整的一個政策"},{"start":11172.9,"end":11186.95,"text":"希望我們在國血國用以及國血補充的部分能夠持續的緊緊 以上說明好 有備無犯 我們可以把事情做得更好剛剛我們也聽到其他委員會談到有關於這個"},{"start":11188.331,"end":11212.716,"text":"很多我們的原料要是來自中國有部分來自印度那這部分如果說我們希望能夠有更好的一些防患措施的話我們很擔心會不會有反傾銷或者是大量傾銷的問題就是說他們這次因為有其他的這個關稅議題所以無法銷售他們自己已經產好的這些產品會不會"},{"start":11213.436,"end":11240.031,"text":"透過這樣的傾銷進到台灣造成這個衝擊那這部分有沒有應用措施我想防中國或者防其他的地方來把台灣當成稀產地這個絕對是完全的禁止所以我想經濟部也有監測特別這個新聞報導有特別的來監測啦那不曉得食藥署在這個部分在稀產地這個部分有沒有什麼"},{"start":11241.634,"end":11266.477,"text":"我們針對這中國的藥品的部分我們的所有的用藥都有很清楚要有缺去的所謂的許可證的情況之下才會讓他進來我們的臺灣所以我們在審查的過程中呢是他也製造廠原始的製造廠在哪當作是我們審查最重要的基準我們對於所有的藥廠裡面我們必須要符合PIC GMP的廠而且我們能夠確定茶廠"},{"start":11267.197,"end":11279.505,"text":"准許他輸入才能夠甘給他的許可證所以這部分我們透過這樣的機制之下所以可以確定我們現在的藥物的許可證來源是在哪裡的生產那以上說明"},{"start":11280.596,"end":11300.997,"text":"所以也希望能夠非常緊密的去監測這些藥品的流向再過來我們也理解這個其實就是一個轉機因為如果我們透過好的方式跟美國達成更好的關稅協議的話其實我們能夠引進很多新的生技製藥產業"},{"start":11302.979,"end":11318.331,"text":"變成一個新的供應鏈的好的一個基地這部分不知道未來有沒有什麼規劃或者是可以處理的部分好這個部分健保署可以來補充一下剛剛今天已經談了很多那個"},{"start":11319.861,"end":11341.714,"text":"鼓勵的措施但是應應剛剛您提的要前面一張提的說危機就是轉機我非常敬佩我們委員的高瞻眼足的那因為的確面對挑戰我們怎麼樣除了解決危機以外我們是不是應該尋求創造更紮實的一個的一個工作包括譬如說我們國內的產鏈產業鏈的把它落實讓"},{"start":11347.598,"end":11374.601,"text":"我們就地生產就地行銷來自己可以光榮自己那當然我們也可以再利用這個機會是不是在將來在市場的分散方面也可以尤其在醫藥生技這個部分其實也必須要往這方面來努力當然我們本身對於可能關稅影響的各種狀況我們必須要有各種應應的因素這個我們也都在都已經end了那至於說怎麼樣鼓勵我們"},{"start":11376.67,"end":11396.661,"text":"國內製藥的韌性是不是署署長簡單跟委員報告一下跟委員報告我們從這個短期跟長期來看那短期當然是在我們每年的藥價調整上面對於這個必要藥品品項那麼有國內製造三個品項以下的那麼我們那一年就不會調整它的藥價"},{"start":11397.481,"end":11425.541,"text":"所以就不會有越來越低的情形所以他不需要去跟大家share那個DET超過的部分這個是短期我們今年就已經開始這樣做了那其他的呢還包含鼓勵這個國產新藥所以如果是在全球首發或者是在其他世界上有發行兩年內在台灣製造的那我們也都有特殊的比照台灣首發的要價的那個優惠合價那另外呢也對國內"},{"start":11427.342,"end":11446.381,"text":"製造那麼過專利期那麼前兩張的這個這個學名藥呢我們給他等同於原廠藥的價格對都有實質的鼓勵OK了解那剛剛部長有提到這個生技產業其實我們知道2024年經濟部產業發展署有提出這個2024生技產業的白皮書"},{"start":11450.525,"end":11464.413,"text":"裡面也說了一些相關的發展的類似部長不知道有沒有好去了解、關心包括還有第2、第4、第5點都有提到相關需要麻煩衛護部來做相關應用作為的地方"},{"start":11465.713,"end":11487.523,"text":"我們也理解他也提到了這個所提到政策建議的方向包括人才培育資料利用法源建立資料庫接軌國際資訊還有導入AI強化CDMO等等的這個關鍵原料物資組等等保證可能現在也沒有時間給你再做報告所以我們是不是可以請"},{"start":11489.264,"end":11517.857,"text":"其實裡面給我們相關報告好沒問題跟委員報告一下其實裡面大部分都我們都在進行那我們會給我們進行的狀況會給委員報告是好 最難忘的就是剛剛有提到這些相關包括韌性的如何能夠讓台灣有很好的這個藥品的準備那陳靜惠委員也很關心她也說是不是能夠提供一個清單給大家做參考"},{"start":11518.857,"end":11543.586,"text":"不過我想要提醒的就是說這樣的清單有一些會不會牽扯到國安問題等等所以在提供這個清單的同時是不是要注意一些謝謝委員 專業的鑑解其實的確公告清單是一個有它不適合性除了說國安的問題以外另外就是可能如果你變成"},{"start":11545.209,"end":11548.413,"text":"變成不可期待的話 那要價可能會被調高"},{"start":11549.78,"end":11577.855,"text":"會面臨很大的衝擊,所以我們在這個部分的確要很小心好,謝謝副市長,抱歉出現,交給習竿不會不會,謝謝王委員、謝謝副市長跟委員報告,我們剛剛是有跟大家說明說到王振興委員宣達結束後就來處理臨時提案但是王委員有跟那個圖委員對調,圖委員又跟賴思寶委員對調所以就是賴思寶委員這個追尋完之後我們再來做臨時提案的處理,謝謝"},{"start":11582.692,"end":11587.178,"text":"謝謝主席的體恤喔那麼各位先請有請邱部長來 請部長委員好請教你 我有兩大問題第一大問題就是全台醫院的個別總額是不是上路了"},{"start":11602.459,"end":11616.172,"text":"對 因為什麼時候上路台北區在4月會上路了4月第一季嘛所以是全國上路了全國上路了結果上路來講的話就馬上產生問題台大已經產生問題了台大的處分集它只看80個掛號100個 後面20個幾乎都沒有辦法看這問題已經產生了"},{"start":11627.722,"end":11637.551,"text":"因為這個又跟你的因為你們要配為了要配合達到總額總額的等於是要.95嘛為了要.92.90是.95吧.95嘛因為這個東西啊就有一點朝三暮四朝四暮三的這有點騙社會的感覺喔你.95就讚的啊結果不是啊結果結果一來的話大醫院根本就砍光封了後面就砍掉了啊"},{"start":11653.065,"end":11669.971,"text":"這個情況是已經發生了台大醫院已經發生了主任級的他的一個他的掛號的掛100個 原來看100個因為實施了這個總額醫院的總額入治然後就變成是看80個 剩下20個是怎麼辦"},{"start":11670.982,"end":11694.808,"text":"報告委員 委員真的也是醫師家庭不可能 也了解醫界的環境我在台大看那麼多人的病每次剛好看完走回來跟心臟科教授講說我今天好累喔 我今天看了50個病人其中只有 其中真的可以看他心臟科只需要2 這裡面只有20個其他根本就應該screen在基層醫院 所以那是強迫強迫做好分期的工作 所以如果說"},{"start":11700.309,"end":11714.098,"text":"這第七遍啦所以他30歲沒辦法在他看所以把他搞得把一個心臟科的教授搞得很累來影響到20個可能真正需要做導管心力不整所以這個是過去不好的現象"},{"start":11715.066,"end":11741.354,"text":"我們現在利用這樣的機會如果做區域的整合那也可以做分級的醫療我覺得這是一個非常重要的你這個做的話我不知道了以我們市場機制來講只有一條路嘛你把這個醫學中心的關號會提高了這樣而已大家乖乖的去遞去醫院去醫院以台大醫院農總幾個醫院都有先示不會去提高關號會"},{"start":11742.774,"end":11765.46,"text":"那我們要做的 我想委員也是專家啦我們最重要就是要讓他分級醫療落實我們政府的工作以及所有我們已經叫了十幾十年了都落實不了咧所以要努力所以要想盡辦法如果真的好做的工作也不會我們做了幾十年還在做啦這個跟你的DRG有沒有關係DRG啊DRG喔有一點關係喔"},{"start":11772.873,"end":11776.797,"text":"以診斷來講 門診應該是沒有作用門診跟糖尿病是一個診斷來講是沒有關係的我想慢慢的讓我們好 第二個大的問題這個賴清德總統說到不同工不同酬什麼時候可以開始試試"},{"start":11791.912,"end":11797.097,"text":"我想這個部分健保署做很多賴總統這句話是講對的比如我們這樣講同樣的醫生看感冒的跟看心臟的很複雜看癌症的很複雜解釋的個別幾乎都10m看感冒的幾乎都很接近老鼻水"},{"start":11815.772,"end":11829.968,"text":"可受的啦 基本上來講都是很接近的啊 你們現在看整個是一樣的啊所以賴總統講這句話是對的不同共 不同仇對 你們是不是可以實施我這個一直在努力喔 我想不是 要是告訴我們時間不要啊"},{"start":11831.451,"end":11836.715,"text":"蘇蘇長跟委員報告一樣跟委員報告確實像一個診能夠看到100個表示都很簡單所以那個診察費不用太高可是相對的如果一個病人要看二三十分鐘我們應該要給他高的診察費所以我們要會分成現在正在研議中的那麼下半年就會實施有所謂一般診察費因為我們的程序還要經過專家會議跟共同擬定會議大概什麼時間嗎給我們講一下大概最rough的"},{"start":11861.031,"end":11888.308,"text":"最保守的應該在第三季啦第三季嗎所以明年的等於明年的十月之前今年喔今年的十月之前我們可以落實賴總統所講的不同工不同酬我們是先從診察費那事實上我們今年上半年五月開始就已經先調了這個加護病房的費用急診的那些費用就調了42億了所以其實一直在進行"},{"start":11888.928,"end":11910.984,"text":"那我剛剛提到的是門診在醫院的門診的診察費那麼把它分成一般跟複雜現在不認真做這個事情喔真的到後來找不到醫生喔那個醫生都跑去做美容的喔一天也要多對不對 一樣是醫生喔這辛苦得要死做功德啦因為怎麼內科外科都做功德啦真的 做功德啦"},{"start":11911.644,"end":11921.39,"text":"是不是這樣最後一個小問題是大問題這次川普的關稅我們總統說要從零開始大家就馬上想到什麼關稅其實中華民國最高的關稅是什麼你知道嗎跟你有關係不知道喔30% 第一名30%不是"},{"start":11937.54,"end":11948.963,"text":"跟他叫做其他項目的什麼我查了一下就是什麼進口藥品30%是全國第一名的進口藥品以健康食品不是藥品的進口健康食品"},{"start":11950.069,"end":11956.09,"text":"堅果健康食品是NO.1保健食品為什麼要克這樣你們講話就是要保護國內的健康食品業者為什麼要保護你告訴我跟委員報告一下訂關稅訂多少其實跟食藥署跟衛福部應該是沒有關係是關務署跟產發署因為不是我們訂的是產發署跟財政部訂出來的關稅的"},{"start":11979.955,"end":12003.894,"text":"就是你們管他 鑰匙管他 進口食品你不管嗎進口這個食品是在一般的食品的進口裡面呢 要關稅的部分呢是在那裡 可是不是關稅要管食品進來這個安全性有效性等等是我們在管的可是要定多少關稅的部分其實是不是我們 不是你們定的對 不是我們定的 可是你們可以提供意見啊對 所以我們其實面對這個議題之下就"},{"start":12005.996,"end":12017.144,"text":"提到因為談從零談起應該會往下降所以這些食品保健相關食品的產線跟藥品會重疊所以我們希望有機會導演到生命用藥會變成零這意想不大的因為老實講這個國外的健康食品進來實在太貴了降為零國內的業者應該不會講投入話"},{"start":12031.772,"end":12049.387,"text":"我們希望國內的業者如果能夠製造協名藥的話,能夠盡量他的產線來製造協名藥才能夠就地生產就地來行銷,保障我們的一個產業鏈經果藥有沒有客觀稅?沒有都沒有客觀稅?藥品沒有好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝,那我們繼續來處理臨時提案"},{"start":12060.8,"end":12089.662,"text":"現在有三案請一併宣讀第一案有鑒於美國政府對我國實施對等關稅政策國產製藥產業工協會於4月14日發表聯合聲明呼籲政府應將全國社區藥局與藥廠及藥材廠並為衛福部醫療韌性計劃參與對象之邀請加速健保化療學名藥P4P政策之制定健保藥價要及時反映市場價格做調整"},{"start":12090.803,"end":12117.688,"text":"以扶植學民藥產業發展之具體作為確保台灣藥品供應鏈之韌性綜上所述請衛生福利部於二週內提出書面報告具體說明提案人委員林月琴 劉建國 王振旭第二案有鑒於契約規範藥品驗收入庫時之有效期限需達八個月以上並對未滿八個月效期之藥品逐月扣除3%至6%之價金"},{"start":12119.208,"end":12125.995,"text":"食品藥物管理署架設之西藥供應資訊平台一旦公布缺藥便罰扣藥商採購價格3%等同客與藥品供應商擔當全國藥品之數量管控調度與庫存之責任綜上所述請衛生福利部於一週內提出書面檢討報告"},{"start":12140.529,"end":12167.201,"text":"提案人委員林月琴 劉建國 王振旭第三案建議衛福部應於4月27日前正式公告全民健康保險藥物給付項目及支付標準修正案並持續開展各項醫療健保制度改革以確保國家安全國人醫療健康權益並使健保財務健康達到健保永續等目的提案人委員廖偉祥 陳清輝 盧憲一 蘇清泉宣讀完畢"},{"start":12171.806,"end":12181.134,"text":"好我們請問各位人針對第一案行政大臣有意見這個這個沒有問題啊沒有問題那各位有沒有其他問題本來在所有的討論裡面就有邀請要這個進來討論這沒有問題好那委員有沒有其他來OK"},{"start":12200.643,"end":12207.795,"text":"蛤 可以啦 OK 好沒有議論我們就在案通過接下來第二案來 第二案來來 那個"},{"start":12215.117,"end":12242.339,"text":"好那個有我們有跟那個委員這邊有溝通過就是第五行那邊就是扣除3%或6%那個或6%拿掉因為縣行文不立院是3%那再來就是倒數第五行那個蛋食品藥物那個地方那個蛋就拿掉然後就是請醫院善用食品藥物管理署架設之需要供應資訊平臺"},{"start":12244.24,"end":12271.81,"text":"然後一旦公佈缺藥那在後面那個變罰扣藥商一直到倒數第二行那個據點就是有不盡合理之疑慮那邊刪掉然後改成盡量使用替代用藥這點避免契約罰扣眾上所述到最後一行請衛生福利部於一個月內提出書面檢討報告以上所以有跟委員這邊有溝通過"},{"start":12274.101,"end":12282.329,"text":"好 同意各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有我們就照這樣修正來通過第三案來 選舉機關有沒有意見"},{"start":12291.115,"end":12318.522,"text":"我想廖委員一直期待我們能夠展現成果那我們用最快的我們非常用心的把這兩個政策做了很多的討論希望一公告就真的很大的幫助但是我覺得時間還是要趕那感謝委員的督促那我們就同意在4月27號前來公告好 那各位有沒有其他好 我們那個"},{"start":12319.332,"end":12324.354,"text":"陽瓊議員一併來連署好謝謝那各位有沒有其他意見我們就這樣通過好謝謝好臨時提案已經處理完畢那接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":12348.143,"end":12354.714,"text":"我們就麻煩劉建國委員歡迎謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":12360.792,"end":12382.357,"text":"莊委好部長好部長一早上我都有聆聽你在達沃說文的提出質疑還有一些相關重點的一些回應謝謝基本上都還蠻OK不過我這個請在修正後整理幾個點也請給部長做一些參考請指教"},{"start":12383.297,"end":12389.039,"text":"其實這個川普預告藥品也可能納入關稅的清單在這個當下同時在14日就前天也啟動了調查半導體與半導體製造設備及藥品與藥物原料"},{"start":12405.143,"end":12425.507,"text":"包含成品藥進口對美國國家的安全的影響所以他就會繼續引發各國對進口藥價的上漲的高度緊張這個是必然但是台灣的健保也是高度依賴進口藥物尤其是癌症藥的藥品應該有18次來自美國"},{"start":12430.748,"end":12457.453,"text":"這也是不爭的事實對不對那同時國際藥廠在台灣剛剛已經有講到已經就是沒有直接在這邊投資生產的這個藥廠啦以前還有石家嘛但是講那個說因為台灣的市場很小所以所以就是這樣離開這個我倒很難認同我在這邊就我的理解像新加坡新加坡有些藥廠是這個"},{"start":12461.195,"end":12480.701,"text":"阿斯利康他次之數億美元在新加坡的國內去設廠,按人口、按土地面積,台灣都大過於新加坡了。所以這個等一下我們再來討論,我是先跟部長提醒。那同時國際藥廠,原廠要仰賴進口輸入,那佔健保會的支出高達七成以上。"},{"start":12487.583,"end":12498.549,"text":"然後另外根據經濟部的統計藥品及醫用化學品2023出口值是17.8億那進口值是66億所以藥品貿易的利差高達48.2億的美元我想從這些數據會顯示台灣這個醫藥品依賴進口的程度是非常大的"},{"start":12509.288,"end":12535.381,"text":"這也是一個事實嘛對不對所以部長昨天我接受媒體採訪的時候你的回應是這樣表示全民健康保險要務幾戶項目及支付標準已訂定明確規範未來藥品價格調漲將依照規定進行成本分析並向健保署提出相關申請再依據這個核准結果調整要價不會影響國內藥品進口這是部長的答案嗎"},{"start":12539.398,"end":12566.848,"text":"這不正確這可能要分兩段一個是在福祉國內婚禮在達成的時候有沒有分兩段對我的意思就是說只要進口的有漲價有社道專制的影響當然我們有一個機制來讓他來不要賠本就是能夠在健保就會漲價那當然第二個就是我們在盡量"},{"start":12568.902,"end":12585.12,"text":"剛剛委員也提到嘛,我們盡量來扶植國內的,這又是另外一個很重要的一個政策在努力我只是要再請教說,部長如果達戶這樣是正確的,只不過是分兩段我把它併在一塊,這樣說明是比較"},{"start":12586.414,"end":12613.353,"text":"比較不精準啦,是不是這樣?還是其實你確實就是講這樣嘛對啦,我要講的就是這樣子這個有工會是有提出相關的一些警告啦他們表示今年健保要求正在進行健保要價的政策改革嘛那現在你又遇到美國關稅變革之際是不是會衝擊這個國外藥廠蘇台的意願啊所以到時候不是只有價格的問題"},{"start":12615.013,"end":12619.14,"text":"絕對不是只有價格的問題然後國外的藥廠到底願不願意把藥賣到台灣的問題喔這個你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":12628.589,"end":12651.487,"text":"來跟委員說明一下就是說在我們這一次的這個藥價調整裡面呢對於這個過專利期的我們就是所謂的第二類藥我們會去參考10國的藥價去做藥價的調整我想大家可能在關切這個這些進口商關切的是這一種可是因為他是過了專利期在其他各國都是快速的調整"},{"start":12652.668,"end":12672.283,"text":"藥價來節省藥費那麼對於參考10國我們參考這10國都是比我們GDP高的國家所以我們也不認為說這樣是會強害到台灣的進口商的意願只要是成本不合都可以按照我們支付標準的34條來提出申請來適時的調整"},{"start":12677.267,"end":12692.584,"text":"好,這個是署長你的答覆嘛公會現在有提出三個建言嘛你們看一下,請部長跟署長看一下第一個是由經濟部,其實今天經濟部沒有來是很奇怪一件事情經濟部設立生技外銷統籌窗口那積極協助國內廠商"},{"start":12695.285,"end":12719.337,"text":"那第二項是簡化台灣藥品市場准錄程序經美國歐盟核准處方藥建立簡化縮短台灣食藥署藥品查驗流程加速提升新藥可進國外藥廠輸給醫院那第三是調整健保署藥價改革措施你們怎麼看這樣的建議好我想第一個當然經濟部這個部分我相信是應該有"},{"start":12720.678,"end":12741.517,"text":"有這樣的窗口那當然這個部分我們再跟經濟部來請教那第二項就請食藥署江署長跟委員報告一下蔡委這邊我簡單的說明有關於台灣藥品市場進入的程序裡面特別提到美國的話就是FDA歐盟叫做EMA裡面的核准的處方用藥"},{"start":12742.338,"end":12765.531,"text":"那我們針對處方的用藥其實在國內的審核的機制裡面我們也有一些加速審核的機制如果國外已經審核的部分我們目前其實希望能夠去簡化它能夠達成新藥能夠新的療效國人有機會能夠快速使用到這些先進的用藥的方式這剛剛你都有答悟過我說針對這樣的一個"},{"start":12767.912,"end":12790.182,"text":"對,國會提出的健額對策,你們原則上可以接受吧?這個90天內,剩下不到90天,到時候會有什麼變化?沒有誰抓得準,對不對?因為這個川普的變化太大了,現在當然幕僚給他什麼建立?他或許會聽,也或許不會聽,也或許聽了他又改變"},{"start":12791.488,"end":12794.135,"text":"所以你很難抓個準嘛但是因為這種重要的物資"},{"start":12797.925,"end":12824.204,"text":"我們不能等到缺藥的時候才來做相關的應用那又沒辦法嘛所以我們要相關的預防機制嘛原則上是沒有錯嘛 對不對對啊對於新藥的部分加速對於一般學名藥的部分我們其實覺得它會強力的衝擊到國內的的一些藥廠的發展啦所以要做整體的一些考量以上的說明好 反正我們就納入參考然後積極來做一些應變嘛齁應該是這樣齁我想不只是這個"},{"start":12825.625,"end":12852.882,"text":"現在帶以上的公會發聲,連國內的三大製藥公會都有一些建議也領得外表聲明台灣應該哄笑歐美、日本國家以政策手段引導國產藥品、薰衣藥提升療效跟品質這剛剛特別都有提到建立醫病對國產藥品的信心並鼓勵醫院採購但是不想台灣一年的藥品及醫用化學品進口就高達62億美元"},{"start":12855.423,"end":12882.943,"text":"這額度也蠻大的然後顯示台灣在藥品的戰略物資上它還是嚴重的依賴國外的資源所以因此大家才會如此擔憂美國關稅貿易戰對台灣的藥品市場帶來的衝擊所以我們一定要強化我們自製藥品的能力都要補兌也都有說都有承諾但是我們有什麼樣的一個掀起計畫還是一個事辦計畫還是你這樣到目前為止你們早已經有形成相關的政策"},{"start":12883.383,"end":12907.055,"text":"準備要再推了嗎?有嗎?有,我們即將公告的這兩個政策就是在增加我們的產業鏈的能力即將公告我那次要的能力這樣子有嗎?你們有即將公告然後兩項請說明一下一個是我們健保的藥品、藥價調整辦法還有一個是藥品的支付標準就剩這兩個法規這個就是剛剛說4月27號前要公告的"},{"start":12912.35,"end":12928.702,"text":"這樣就可以讓台灣強化自治藥品的能力所以是剛剛那國內三大製藥公會聯合聲明希望趕快推動的三大公會聯合聲明趕快推動跟台灣要強化自治藥品的能力有關係嗎沒有吧"},{"start":12932.799,"end":12961.545,"text":"有啊,他們最近的一個聯合聲明就是希望那兩個政策趕快來實施不是啊,我們是,我剛剛最後的一點,時間到了啦我是要強化台灣知識藥品的能力我想講這句話這兩個政策是一定有我們不僅要加強在台製造,更需要鼓勵投資生技產業嘛然後再來,因為未來不是搶藥啦"},{"start":12962.901,"end":12980.248,"text":"因為未來不是只有疫道搶藥,我們是應該搶製藥生產線搶製藥生產線嘛,所以在這個疫情的時候就已經發現掌握藥品或是疫苗的國家,他就有話語權嘛我們現在有什麼樣的計畫,現在就來處理這些事情嗎?"},{"start":12983.399,"end":13001.349,"text":"我再跟委員簡單的說明就是我們分成幾段一個是對於台灣首發新藥的優惠價包含他是全球第一個或者是在國外然後兩年內國外上市兩年內到台灣來製造發行我們都有優惠合價另外對於國內製造的品項"},{"start":13004.15,"end":13017.315,"text":"那麼用國內製造的原料藥我們藥價加10%在國內做臨床試驗我們也加10%這個都是鼓勵讓這個在國內來製造會不會就是鼓勵的一種我接受啦前面那個我覺得倒還好"},{"start":13019.398,"end":13040.926,"text":"如果只有這樣這坦白講江蘇長應該來答問才對因為進一步的是在國藥能夠國用國產的其實在學名藥的這個門檻相對的對接的機會大所以我們對於必要藥品的盤點那種已經過了專利期的用藥裡面有三百多種用藥我們其實看過了那我們為了讓國內的藥廠有吸引力所以我們針對東南亞國協之間"},{"start":13046.089,"end":13073.561,"text":"我們的藥廠的PIC GMP的認證我們產的藥就有機會往東南亞銷對於歐盟的所謂關鍵藥品的法案底下我們國內的藥廠的製作因為是PIC GMP也可以對接到那邊的銷售所以整體來講我們針對這一次剛才提到了健康保健相關食品的部分的產線因為是藥廠跟食品廠之間的產線之間的競合那未來因為關稅在"},{"start":13075.261,"end":13097.127,"text":"保健相關食品的一些差異之下我們希望能夠積極的往他導引在這個部分讓他能夠有利可圖讓這些廠商都能夠把台灣的製藥的產線能夠積極的能夠完成現在署長我時間已經超過一些了我剛剛特別提醒部長還有兩位署長我們未來恐怕不是只有搶藥就是搶藥就是搶製藥生產線那台灣成績何時有這麼多的"},{"start":13103.028,"end":13131.988,"text":"這個國外大廠來設廠,那曾幾何時這些大廠都不見了那我們收穫我們的市場很小在講這一話好像滅自己威風啊那我就疲於了新加坡,人家就可以成功去去招到這麼大的藥廠所以我們是不只要能夠自製藥品,也是要能夠吸引國際的藥廠來台來設廠啊,我想這個必須要鬆軟旗下嘛我記得我去年六月五號的時候還在委員會,甚至在院會也都指引過部長說台灣的能力"},{"start":13132.728,"end":13158.932,"text":"我們就有辦法舉辦這個台北國際電腦展我們應該也有能力來舉辦國際AI展智慧展都可以嘛對不對我也不曉得部長什麼時候可以成行是不是在短時間內啦包含這個相關的提升台灣自己製藥的能力招募國際大廠來這邊設廠的相關的一些計畫跟辦法是不是可以提供給委會做參考"},{"start":13159.432,"end":13188.972,"text":"有相關的流程跟計畫都很重要我們重新來檢討來研究報告所以我最後有三個要求第一個請部長看一下沒有強化在台製造藥品同時增加大眾對國產學名藥的信心這個一周內可能要請部長提出報告那與經濟部共同年齡一個月內提出強化國際藥廠在台設廠制醫院及規劃那第三本期就去年已經有要求了今年何時可以舉辦國際醫療AI展智慧展"},{"start":13190.533,"end":13195.177,"text":"也請易中烈提出了好不好好謝謝好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝劉建國、趙偉的發言謝謝部長跟署長的答詢下一位請楊崇英委員發言"},{"start":13219.114,"end":13221.378,"text":"謝主席 邀請部長請協部長委員好"},{"start":13228.606,"end":13249.825,"text":"那美國總統川普祭出了對等的關稅政策雖然在第一波沒有藥品跟醫材但是關稅的政策它是變化非常的大那外界也預期藥品可能成為下一波加徵關稅的對象更憂心它會衝擊到我們整個台灣的健保用藥的市場"},{"start":13250.906,"end":13254.108,"text":"醫界也擔心在製藥成本上漲導致售價也提高那在這種情況之下會不會導致一波缺藥潮那當然部長你昨天受訪的時候你也提到從美國進口的癌症藥品可能會漲價"},{"start":13271.579,"end":13286.835,"text":"可能會漲價所以在這邊首先來請教部長我們政府要如何的來因應你認為是否有可能會引發的缺藥潮那藥品的這個漲價它是不是就直接會衝擊到我們的這個患者的一個權益請做說明"},{"start":13290.839,"end":13314.922,"text":"好 我先簡略回應 回答那個委員的垂行第一個 因為現在關稅這一波還沒有到我們預要的頻所以目前並沒有直接的影響但是我們必須機安思維所以我們來看看檢討我們目前的機制我們從列必要的清單"},{"start":13316.303,"end":13334.018,"text":"然後有缺藥的平台監測然後如果有漲價的話在健保的部分也有一定的機制來給幾戶更多這樣的一個完整的情況之下目前是沒有缺藥的一個擔心來給目前是沒有來給幾戶更多在健保"},{"start":13334.178,"end":13350.532,"text":"我們依照全民健康保險要務解副項目以及支付的辦法支付的標準喔那麼你們原本喔是在今年的1月20號就已經預告中止但是為什麼到現在還沒公告呢所以在剛剛的這個臨時提案裡頭本席也聽到喔那部長說"},{"start":13355.897,"end":13379.17,"text":"本來應該要該趕快決定的就要決定因為大家現在心很慌健康是不容許打折的所以提案是說希望能夠在4月27號以前正式公告純民健康保險要務給付的項目以及支付的標準這個修正案那是不是會在如期的這個時間來完成"},{"start":13381.671,"end":13387.993,"text":"報告委員 至少讓大家有一個依據啊對 我們這樣的時程 其實我們還是要感佩健保署的同仁收集了所有的意見 然後預告了兩個月以後所以你在1月份就已經預告終止了嘛因為我們必須要把他的意見 一旦公告我們就是要有好的政策來幫助"},{"start":13406.597,"end":13418.803,"text":"當然我們現在目前應該應該整個健保署已經完成了那時辰什麼時候會公佈那它完成的要送到我們衛福部我們立即來送這個流程當然行政部門辛苦要去把它完成4月27號以前就位公告"},{"start":13423.146,"end":13436.482,"text":"確定4月27號以前會公告4月27號以前會來公告全民健康保險要緊負的項目以及支付的標準因為必須先安內"},{"start":13437.683,"end":13459.275,"text":"必須先安慰你至少讓大家能夠了解我們現在重新檢討的這個給付標準跟以及項目到底是什麼至少要讓我們的健保能夠穩定下來讓我們的這個患者都能夠安心這個是非常重要所以我們確定在4月27號以前會來做公告這兩個辦法會公告"},{"start":13462.297,"end":13486.955,"text":"好 謝謝部長那接下來本席要請教那我們安慰了之後那你認為目前是不會有缺藥潮但是如果在關稅啟動的時候大家都很緊張在這樣的情況之下你關稅啟動就陳如寧說的從美國進口的癌症藥一定會漲價那在這樣的情況之下我們要怎麼樣應對"},{"start":13488.476,"end":13517.426,"text":"我們要怎麼應對要保障讓我們的患者的權利不受打折請做說明報告委員現在藥品進到我們台灣是零關稅所以這個現在目前是如此所有的媒體你每天在看他說下一波所以大家就很緊張我們現在一起的只是一起說在整個世界關稅的一個情況是不是它的在美國發生成本貴一點點"},{"start":13518.348,"end":13525.035,"text":"所以他進口會賣貴一點點可是他到台灣還是零關稅嘛所以這個基本上的影響我們是覺得有限當然我們絕對不管有限我們都要盤點我們都盤點一定盤點而且是已經盤點盤點好了盤點好了"},{"start":13539.09,"end":13544.552,"text":"盤點好了也有應對的措施關於它漲價了進來了以目前來講健保是足夠來應對因為昨天你講了從美國進口的這個海洋藥會增加會漲價你現在改口說可能我也聽到有這個可能"},{"start":13562.919,"end":13575.825,"text":"因為現在還沒有發生所以我們當然是加可能有可能就表示你們有在盤點有在應對但是一個結果也就是要不會有缺藥而且目前在我們健保的範疇內不會影響到我們患者的權益我們再怎麼樣都不會影響到患者的權益"},{"start":13588.231,"end":13612.35,"text":"加油接下來本席要跟你討論的也就是我們護理師人員的問題那之前本席有問過你喔總統先生在選舉的時候說兩年內要醫病這個這個這個三班護病筆要入法當然上一次本席跟你討論你也拿出了誠意你說在你的任內會完成到目前為止是否也是如此呢"},{"start":13614.274,"end":13642.302,"text":"應該是總統的任內吧是總統的任內好沒關係我們理清楚就好總統的任內但是依照我們中華民國護理師公會全國聯合會所提出他們幾點的建議第一個他們說希望用公務預算來補資第二個他們希望提升健保的點子確保醫院用於提升護理人員的薪資所以本席要請教這麼長的時間了我們護理人員的薪資有沒有提升"},{"start":13645.681,"end":13671.592,"text":"我想我們政府這邊是用十二大策略譬如說補月班的啦你現在是用這個補助獎勵嗎那個是月班就直接到直接到護理人員的身上當然啊那其他的呢那其他的護病比達到譬如說醫學中心現在達到六成他有很多都拿到獎勵那當然就是給醫院去我們希望他能夠"},{"start":13672.152,"end":13692.414,"text":"多補到護理人員或者給護理人員加薪部長你昨天有沒有看到這個新聞他指出成大醫院因護理人力流失要關閉部分的病房院方預計五月份關病房目前他已經關了四十多床要再關閉三十床左右"},{"start":13693.154,"end":13709.84,"text":"這也顯示出這個護理人員的一個人力的一個流失所以我在這邊建議你目前是用獎勵用補助的方式但是我們還是要朝著路法讓大家都能夠安心"},{"start":13711.021,"end":13730.022,"text":"那你剛剛回答的說是原本總統在選舉的時候他說是兩年內那你現在邱部長告訴我們的是說在總統的任內會完成三班互併筆錄法是不是如此我們會往這個目標現在也都是進行式嘛是不是"},{"start":13730.908,"end":13737.932,"text":"是不是 現在有在推動嗎 有沒有在推動 入法的部分有沒有在推動當然就是說要先獎勵 獎勵先行 然後等溝通差不多有共識你預計溝通共識大概在什麼時間開始推動這個醫療的體系很複雜 我們大大小小的醫院那麼多所以你現在給我們的答案就是說總統任內會完成三班互併比的入法 是不是"},{"start":13760.186,"end":13761.63,"text":"我們會朝這樣來努力啦而且你們現在是溝通中是不是"},{"start":13765.745,"end":13791.165,"text":"因為獎勵先行 那審理先行如果大家覺得這個做得到 便宜也能夠調整而且包括醫學中心區醫院 地區醫院 還有偏鄉等是這個醫療體系所以我們也聽到一個答案就是說有兩年改為任內 就是四年要完成這是您現在部長告訴我們的那最後一個議題也就是川普上任之後他"},{"start":13792.306,"end":13813.067,"text":"上個數小時馬上宣布說這個要退出這個世衛那聯合國也表示美國在會2026年1月22號會退出WHO那過去美國很積極的協助台灣來加入WHO甚至或者是以觀察員的身份來參與WHA但是如果他真的"},{"start":13813.587,"end":13823.158,"text":"如果萬一真的退出的時候 那我方我們要怎麼辦呢我們是否會失去了最主要的這個支持者那我們會怎麼樣"},{"start":13825.795,"end":13847.801,"text":"來努力那我們是不是會加強透過雙邊的合作比如說台美台日台歐盟建立國際醫療的夥伴的關係來提升整個台灣在全球醫療政策的一個影響力請說明好謝謝我想美國對於退出WHO這樣的一個"},{"start":13850.081,"end":13862.81,"text":"一個策略 到底是一個策略或者是暫時的還是永久的 這個我們要小心應應不能說我們發覺 我們就知道不要做了我們照常5月16號WHA開會的時候我們還是照常 議會行動團甚至我們的立委 督導團都還是會去成行那像去年總共有大概"},{"start":13877.06,"end":13886.601,"text":"近百個團體台灣來自海外的華人或是台灣人到那一邊去努力"},{"start":13887.645,"end":13896.488,"text":"那這個一定要去把握這一個禮拜的時間一定要把握這個重要關鍵時刻跟許許多多國家做互動所以怎麼樣建立我們醫療夥伴的關係我想邱部長這個是我們非常關鍵因為台灣的醫療是世界級的我們一定在國際的接軌要好好的去應對去聯繫"},{"start":13908.252,"end":13922.198,"text":"謝謝委員所以肯定我們醫療的努力加油那我們一定會把它在國際運用醫療的國際的力量來連結來增加台灣的能見度感謝委員謝謝好謝謝楊瓊英委員的發言也謝謝部長我們下一位請王煥薇委員發言好謝謝主席我請我們"},{"start":13938.179,"end":13943.668,"text":"部長 邱部長還有我們石崇良石署長"},{"start":13945.535,"end":13968.543,"text":"蘇書長 委員好部長好我先順著剛才楊瓊英委員講的我覺得我們確實不需要跟著川普隨之起舞我覺得WHO WHA這樣的一個國際的這個舞台我們不要放棄所以我覺得剛才那個部長的"},{"start":13969.423,"end":13972.146,"text":"我是覺得是正確的肯定的但是呢針對我們這一次美國要準備對藥品也要可以關稅我們現在雖然不曉得稅率是多少但是我覺得衛福部到現在為止的態度我認為是掩飾太平"},{"start":13989.145,"end":13998.751,"text":"事實上是偏於事實好譬如說在第一時間我們的林靜儀次長他直接講說這就變成衛福部冒號囉無直接衝擊而且反而對台有利我不曉得為什麼次長常常因為我們這個次長是常常在施言的到底對台灣有利什麼到底沒有衝擊什麼"},{"start":14013.2,"end":14017.422,"text":"如果一個次長連功課都不做就直接這樣的粉飾太平這完全是錯誤的態度因為珍珠後面我們不管是我們的醫界我們的藥商我們的代理商我們的藥師大家所反映出來的根本不是沒有衝擊而且對台灣本來就有一些影響為什麼我們今天會有專題報告"},{"start":14039.753,"end":14056.449,"text":"不過我覺得部長你說沒有發生的事情不要擔心我覺得這個態度也是不對因為今天大家都鎖定說未來缺藥會不會是癌症又要會不會是抗生素那對於現在很多的癌症病患病友來說那麼"},{"start":14058.411,"end":14082.058,"text":"他們可能還在服用就是還在療程之中老師說啦 部長你跟他講說還沒有發生的事情不要擔心我如果是癌症病患或者我是他的家屬我會非常非常擔心第一個我會擔心會不會缺藥開玩笑 怎麼會不擔心呢第二我擔心這個藥會不會變得很貴"},{"start":14083.758,"end":14085.579,"text":"第三個我擔心健保的給付夠不夠這都是一般民眾針對這樣的一個衝擊他們會想要問的事情所以部長我還是奉勸我覺得衛福部要直接的跟我們人民說真話這樣的衝擊確實並不操之在我們"},{"start":14105.253,"end":14116.04,"text":"那麼美國發起風來我怎麼曉得他到時候他要課多少關稅但是我覺得這個態度是不對的接下來我想請問一下剛才有特別提到因為對台灣來說我們事實上在藥品的部分我們是逆差我們的貿易逆差是48.2億美元"},{"start":14130.649,"end":14133.053,"text":"因為台灣藥品非常的仰賴從國外進口所以現在包含藥師公會這個理事長也說了說藥廠在台灣的利潤過低所以容易會出現缺藥潮"},{"start":14146.192,"end":14162.483,"text":"那我想請問一下我們的健保署的署長因為你也說你們有去盤點我覺得這是正確的比如說我們對美國進口的藥品的項目有幾項佔我們的健保支出是多少是一成左右"},{"start":14163.203,"end":14169.807,"text":"好所以呢我想請問一下如果在美國針對好藥品課徵關稅而導致我們的進口的用藥的價格提升的話那麼我們健保會完全的吸收嗎我覺得這是很多的病患關心的事情我可以請教署長"},{"start":14187.596,"end":14202.404,"text":"在組長講以前我先謝謝委員的指教其實在川普的關稅宣布以後我們當然所有的衛務部所有的司署都針對他們的業務做了很多的盤點跟應用之道這是正確的"},{"start":14202.984,"end":14225.757,"text":"那我們在缺藥這個部分因為一開始就大家擔心缺藥這會造成一個不好的一個現象因為我們目前的確的一個韌性是相當的夠我們從那個監測部長我請問一下你是不是擔心大家認為會缺藥然後進而造成豚藥你是不是有這個擔心當然我也不希望沒有"},{"start":14226.317,"end":14244.51,"text":"不希望這樣子去做啦所以我的意思有時候他下的標並不是我講的話我的講的話是說我們已經做好準備所以請大家不用擔心這個我先說明一下啦謝謝委員的指教我想我的態度一向都是機安思惟"},{"start":14245.41,"end":14274.68,"text":"對 要居安思維 然後跟民眾說真話絕對是 我們就是照顧民眾的健康嘛當然給民眾的都是最真實的理解但是不要造成無謂的惶恐 這樣也不好我知道 我剛才問部長說你是不是擔心因為擔心大家說缺藥缺藥缺藥我們很多講缺藥之後就會出現囤積嘛但是如果過去也有一些經驗囤積一些貨品的時候我們也應該也有一些非常的手段嘛"},{"start":14275.18,"end":14292.711,"text":"那個委員過去在防疫規劃面也都幫忙我們醫生很多你知道這個大概民眾的安撫給民眾真實的狀況是很重要的事情好那我請問那個署長就是大家擔心未來第一個大家擔心缺藥第二擔心價格過"},{"start":14294.192,"end":14313.627,"text":"提高那第三個那我們未來健保還是不是照常給付也就是說屬於我們健保給付的用藥裡面如果未來因為這一次的這個關稅的關係而調高價格我們的健保藥要怎麼樣因應好跟我們報告謝謝您的關心那我們盤點過在健保給付的14000多項裡頭屬於美國製造的大概是176項金額大概一年大概在200億左右啦"},{"start":14321.593,"end":14340.745,"text":"那這裡面我們再比對的必要品項就是必要藥品的話是72項這72項的健保的申報大概在84億所以這個規模我們大概已經列出來了所以未來如果萬一那麼發生有這個成本上漲那麼藥商他是可以依照我們的這個藥價支付"},{"start":14342.946,"end":14365.819,"text":"標準我們藥品置物標準裡頭的第34條裡面就特別針對罕藥跟這個所謂的特殊藥品就是會沒有可替代性的藥品可以來提這個調升這個藥價所以有這個機制存在至於在費用的部分呢我們在健保的總額裡面特別有一個特別其他部門裡頭有一塊叫做非預期風險的這個這個預算的調控那我們是編了20億"},{"start":14370.602,"end":14383.387,"text":"那當然如果不足的部分 那麼我們會再繼續的爭取那我們目前的健保的安全準備金也還有1600億可以緊急的支應然後再來跟行政院爭取額外的預算所以剛才書長講的重點就是非預期風險你現在這個準備金是20億那所以因為現在行政院不是在盤點整個去因應"},{"start":14392.371,"end":14398.213,"text":"整個的這個對等關稅所造成的衝擊我覺得這部分你們應該報到行政院要給我們一些團性我在這邊的質詢其實最主要的目的就是在我們所有的病患他就是可能這些都是他的長期用藥那麼到時候他如果因為關稅關係也是被預期的這個這些因素的影響"},{"start":14414.56,"end":14439.137,"text":"那麼不要因此而造成我們這些病患沉重的負擔好不好所以這個部分就拜託可能要你們就要報到行政院因為行政院現在可能都是針對外銷廠商的一些紓困嘛好或者勞工的紓困好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王宏偉委員的發言謝謝部長跟署長的答詢我們下一位委員請李彥秀"},{"start":14440.851,"end":14462.547,"text":"李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員不在下一位請圖全齊委員圖全齊委員圖全齊委員他改書面質詢所以相關紀錄會列入公報下一位我們請洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員洪委員不在我們下一位請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":14468.788,"end":14469.55,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":14475.208,"end":14501.583,"text":"委員好部長好部長這個最近這幾天大家都非常的關心不論是產業或者是我們跟衛福部相關的這個業務大家都關心這個川普對等關稅這個生效之後那雖然還有90天的一個喘息的機會啦那我覺得說衛福部應該針對這部分跟你們相關的這些產業應該也要去關心或者是"},{"start":14502.503,"end":14518.932,"text":"未來會不會影響到我們所有的這個藥品那我首先先請部長就今天大家關心的這個議題就是說未來我們對於我們的藥品或者是我們的這個醫療器材因為"},{"start":14520.012,"end":14547.881,"text":"很多譬如說我們國內自己本身也有做那有很多也是從靠國外國外進來那今天很多委員也會擔心這樣子一個關稅的問題那會不會影響到我們健保的這個用藥的穩定性那我是不是可以請教部長就我們這個藥品跟醫療器材的這個短中長期的發展那會有什麼樣的影響那衛福部針對這部分你們有什麼樣的因應"},{"start":14549.755,"end":14567.025,"text":"好是的我想謝謝委員我們第一時間在關稅的宣布以後我們就馬上衛福部所有的部門就盤點然後他們各個相關的業務裡面包括像疫苗包括藥品醫材生技醫療生技甚至連"},{"start":14568.386,"end":14583.943,"text":"你們都有盤點過我們都有去盤點到到底會對民眾衝擊多少也提出的因應之道如果委員需要這個資料我們也可以提供給委員來參考那至於藥品的一個"},{"start":14585.465,"end":14598.718,"text":"或者是醫療生技的應用之道當然我們最終的目標都希望能夠這也是全球的趨勢能夠就地生產就地行銷以避免這樣關稅的衝擊"},{"start":14600.76,"end":14619.105,"text":"那在對外的話當然分散市場方面也是在醫療生技方面也是相當重要也是他們現在目前在演繹的一個對策啦那至於說進口最重要是我們人民所要用的藥我們是不是讓他充分那或者是第二個建議"},{"start":14621.266,"end":14644.661,"text":"產業鏈讓我們的本土或協名要的產業鏈能夠更加的扎實能夠提升我們在就地生產就地行銷這個部分在食藥署跟健保署這個部分都有相關的鼓勵的一個措施我相信這樣的應用方式就可以在各方面都能夠避免這一次的衝擊就不影響人民的健康造物權益"},{"start":14645.942,"end":14670.114,"text":"好 謝謝 谢谢部長那我想請教就是說之前我們在也聽到就是說很多的這個藥廠這個藥就退出台灣的市場那很多是因為這個健保給付的關係嘛那我想請教就是說其實有很多的品項就是有的是使用替代替代的藥品或者是可能用這個低價"},{"start":14670.874,"end":14692.543,"text":"低價的製品也許醫材可能用比較低價的製品來取代使用那我想請教就是說對於我們之前還沒有這個對等關稅的就有這樣類似一個問題出現那現在川普提出來這個對等關稅那對於我們的這個藥品的穩定性還有未來我們這個醫材"},{"start":14695.939,"end":14713.455,"text":"之前很多是因為健保給付不高啦所以很多就是退出台灣的市場那像這樣子的話衛福部要怎麼去解決這樣的一個問題那另外我想請教就是說如果像中國中國他現在可能"},{"start":14714.031,"end":14735.506,"text":"川普這邊就是說要課一百多趴的這個稅那會不會是有一些劣質的或者是比較低價的或是比較就轉銷到其他國家轉銷到其他國家那台灣可能也是他的這個其中的一個國家之一那我想請教就是說如果有類似的這樣的一個狀況那衛福部要怎麼去因應"},{"start":14736.291,"end":14750.902,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,所有會到台灣的藥品都是經過食藥室,非常嚴格的審查,而且都有他的藥證等等的,所以這個部分我們會嚴格的來處理。"},{"start":14752.003,"end":14764.287,"text":"那至於說其實我們國際健保在有限的資源裡面我們已經做最大的努力那當然這中間怎麼樣取捨還有都是跟專家做很多的討論那這個部分是不是請時事長來看說我們這個"},{"start":14769.244,"end":14784.478,"text":"是不是有退出市場等等跟我們報告我們也有在盤點這些醫材項目我們醫材大概是幾乎7000多個品項我們有盤但目前真的是中國大陸值的是低於1%非常少"},{"start":14785.038,"end":14804.438,"text":"所以我們現在多數都是國內產品或者是美國大概來的也不少還有歐洲這些國家都是品質上相當都不錯因為醫材我們分兩種一種是包裹式脊腹含鈉在醫療服務項目裡頭"},{"start":14805.999,"end":14812.124,"text":"一種是特別是像一些植入性的像這個支架或者是心臟結粒型這種我們就用特採來給付那特採我們也有它的合價的方式那麼也都會採取市場價的平均來考量所以應該我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說中國這邊的"},{"start":14827.635,"end":14851.061,"text":"醫材也好或者是藥品或者是原料就是可能美國那邊可能他進不去那就轉銷其他國家那台灣也是其中一個那我想請教就是說未來像類似這樣的一個狀況我們要如何再嚴格的把關因為我知道很多的譬如說我們的針筒什麼很多都是可能都是來自中國"},{"start":14853.312,"end":14879.074,"text":"這邊跟委員回應一下就所有的醫材要進入台灣的醫藥的照護的系統都必須經過食藥署我們有一個醫莊組針對每一項的醫材那進一步的做審核審核通過之後才能發給他所謂的許可證許可證才能夠作為進出口進來的一個憑據說的話就是不法的醫材"},{"start":14879.554,"end":14905.923,"text":"所以這部分呢我們每一項這個我們都會嚴格的去把關這個部分那這個部分跟委員進一步的說明以上那另外我想請教就是說我們在全球就是說醫療器材這個產業可能在2027年可能就有原本的這個400億美元會提升到700億美元那其實我們在禮拜一那個劉建國召委有安排"},{"start":14906.483,"end":14911.265,"text":"就是到彰化的那個秀傳醫院的那個微創中心有去看他們這個微創還有他們一些比較他們自己研發的一些醫療器材那其實我覺得這個未來我們台灣的這個醫療產業其實也可以成為另外一個護國神山所以我想請教部長針對這樣子的不論是我們的藥品也好或者是我們所有的醫療器材或者是我們的醫療"},{"start":14937.457,"end":14958.208,"text":"醫療產業可能大家會覺得說台灣的醫療水準非常的高甚至其他國家的人也會希望來台灣這邊可能來醫治那我想請教就是說部長針對這樣子的話我們國家要怎麼去扶植或怎麼去這個那個輔導他們這個走向國際跟國際接軌我相信這些"},{"start":14964.591,"end":14990.49,"text":"他們應該都走在我們政府的前面了只是說我們要怎麼再用政府的力量讓我們這個醫療產業我們不能至於有這麼大的一個商機我們當然也要有一個角色所以我想請教部長未來我們這樣的一個醫療產業你要怎麼去扶植我們這些產業然後變成我們另一座的護國神山"},{"start":14991.492,"end":15001.555,"text":"謝謝委員的催省,我想我們在大概四年前左右,我們共同在衛環委員會努力,讓醫藥生技的經濟部的"},{"start":15007.237,"end":15034.231,"text":"那個等於是獎勵這個辦的一個條例把他從智慧醫療甚至再生醫療等等的這些醫療科技這個部分給他做一個獎勵這個就是很重要的來扶植那也是以這樣的為基礎所以我們可以看到我們現在每次在醫療科技的展真的是越來越龐大但是面對這樣的當然面對未來的挑戰或者競爭我們"},{"start":15037.405,"end":15062.932,"text":"將來可能再也要有一些應用之道啦譬如說我們的出口是不是需要分散市場所以在國內我們絕對是扶植他啦但是我們要讓他有出路所以我們也連結到很多東南亞甚至歐洲讓他們有更有市場那這個部分大概我想再秀傳這個去看他的"},{"start":15063.692,"end":15082.865,"text":"它這個是一個微創的教學中心我們上次我想委員已經去過第二次了那個都會深深的impressive我們台灣的醫療的科技這麼的好醫療的技術那麼的好教了很多國外的學生這個都是我們"},{"start":15084.546,"end":15095.131,"text":"所以像我們上次去訪視的,這是第二次啦秀傳說已經開了四十天,也不是說立法委員會來看就是說我們現在,現在你再試就再去,表示說真的很重視他們的一個醫療科技的發展還是醫療技術的推廣那這個部分我想"},{"start":15107.116,"end":15132.259,"text":"在台灣的政府是一定全力在支持這個部分不曉得兩位有沒有補充委員這邊做特別的補充因為台灣的ICT的產業科技產業非常的進步加上臨床醫療產業所以我們結合了智慧的醫療的產業作為智慧醫療的醫材的部分我們成立智慧醫療的研發的輔導的機制那在我們的"},{"start":15134.061,"end":15147.512,"text":"食藥署這邊呢 持續在推展 那目前進來呢 也有合可的許可證的持續的增加 已經有上百家的一個合可有關於人工智慧醫材的 這部分是我們持續推展的一個部分 以上說明好 先生我們看到這個"},{"start":15151.196,"end":15178.033,"text":"這個川普提出來對等關稅其實我覺得說危機也許是一個轉機也是一個契機啦那我覺得很多企業他是走在我們政府前面的那當然就是說如果要把醫療產業成為另一座護國神山的話應該也是政府要有一些角色來扶植那有很多譬如說現在川普也希望說能夠投資美國那其實如果可以在我們的這個產業醫療產業如果投資美國"},{"start":15180.775,"end":15197.971,"text":"能夠取得他們的這個認證其實應該也可以打開其他國家的市場所以我覺得這也許是一個很好的方式也不一定所以我希望就是說我們衛福部在這一次應該要有一些角色然後扶植我們的這些醫療產業好不好"},{"start":15199.753,"end":15219.419,"text":"不管是方委員剛剛你提的,以及剛剛王成熙委員提的,就是我們危機就是轉機第一就是我們台灣人的追準,台灣人的去拼尤其台灣醫療科技的水準,我們真的要氣魄去把它做,不但是國內做好,也要推導到國際的一個紅艷這樣子好,謝謝謝謝黃學凰委員的發言,也謝謝部長跟署長的回答我們下一位請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":15237.415,"end":15241.596,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長麻煩邱部長委員好部長好部長我在2023年的12月曾經跟陳培宇委員開了一個記者會那主要的訴求是因為我們有族人廚師那他做了叫做老葉香腸這樣的一個食品在市面上販售"},{"start":15266.405,"end":15287.68,"text":"被人檢舉就收到罰單六萬塊那為什麼要開記者會因為其實我之前在這個更早之前也為了月桃能夠入菜也做過但是我覺得很辛苦因為一個一個個案來然後也不知道要怎麼樣到什麼時候才能夠納入食品安全"},{"start":15288.3,"end":15308.247,"text":"那開罰的依據當然是因為有一個叫食品安全衛生管理法第十五條然後第一項的第九款從未於國內工作飲食且未經證明為無害人體健康所以就不得製造加工販售等等甚至是做贈品也不行"},{"start":15309.807,"end":15319.694,"text":"我很感謝就是多次的關心之後其實我也在2月14號有拿到你們衛福部的回函他有提到說食藥署其實在112年的10月26號曾經有發文"},{"start":15325.237,"end":15349.239,"text":"就是食品如果有違反食安法剛才的第一項第九款他有特別提到說勿僅依食品原料整合查詢平台作為裁罰依據就是蠻人性化那在113年4月30號也曾經重申就是不要將食品原料整合查詢平台作為裁罰的依據可是就是沒辦法嘛"},{"start":15350.08,"end":15365.466,"text":"那甚至是什麼呢像這些有機認證的也很苦惱因為我們看一下這些品項像南瓜嫩芯很好啊然後農糧署有推廣的番杏啊或者紫貝草啊木草芯啊等等等非常的多芋頭梗啊這些都是很好的一個入菜對身體有健康營養"},{"start":15372.469,"end":15391.024,"text":"但是它就是因為沒有列在食品原料整合平台所以它連有機驗證也沒有辦法進行我們看一下你們的食品原料整合平台的查詢系統我以老葉為例輸入進去它會出現未確認安全性尚不得使用之原料"},{"start":15392.024,"end":15419.751,"text":"所以呢很多的key進去甚至連資料都沒有連都零那我們來看一下的一個原因就是因為這個申請作業指引這個所謂的非傳統性食品原料的定義他是提到說台灣境內無實用歷史經驗者然後呢是一個排除條件僅有某特定區域或族群之消費者使用經驗他是被排除的他是有歧視性的一個意思所以呢"},{"start":15420.531,"end":15434.519,"text":"經過反應之後也很感謝這一次出來的一個草案114年3月13號有你們有修正把非傳統性食品原料已經改成新興食品原料安全性評估作業原則"},{"start":15435.76,"end":15452.234,"text":"那目前是在預告期間但是呢就是有把那個某特定區域族群我剛剛講那個比較歧視性的排除他現在呢已經把它就是改為一個名稱叫新興食品原料但是這個當中第一個他是要1999年12月31日以前"},{"start":15455.316,"end":15477.508,"text":"也就是25年前了那為什麼要這樣我是不太了解那但是這個沒有關係但是我比較在意的是你食用方式與傳統食用經驗不同者那都是創意料理啊那創意料理怎麼辦因為你們裡面有規定例如限定要用先煮還規定說要怎麼煮所以那個創意料理怎麼辦"},{"start":15478.288,"end":15501.218,"text":"那另外是說無足夠安全實用經驗但是我之前就是一直提因為你們這個之前的作業指引申請你們都說是要收集國際間就是國際的期刊的研究資料可是你們的國際期刊大多為歐美日啊問題我們是南島民族啊你們有沒有採用南島民族的實用經驗"},{"start":15502.478,"end":15530.479,"text":"你們好像沒有採納那國內的研究算不算數像這個PPT上面的這是國內的野菜學校一個老師叫吳雪月你看她出版的書啊那我們來翻譯一下喔她的書喔不但有實用經驗還有研究還有食譜喔我們來Key in進去木鱉子共有零筆搜尋結果它裡面有一道叫做紙被草搜尋進去零筆搜尋結果這些都不合法"},{"start":15531.34,"end":15539.927,"text":"都必須要收到罰單都不能推廣所以呢更麻煩這一途走不動的時候是要做什麼呢要做"},{"start":15541.381,"end":15569.141,"text":"進行一 90天餵食毒性試驗二 基因毒性試驗三 致肌畸形試驗那誰來做試驗而且經費很貴每一項需要500萬那我們這樣一項一項各個急迫曠日費時又要經費龐大如果要走這一圖根本誰有辦法哪一個廚師有辦法哪一個公司有辦法所以這個部分我還是希望就是再一次訴求"},{"start":15569.801,"end":15588.551,"text":"因為你們是3月到5月預告三個月嘛目前正在預告期間那我是希望說我們衛福部跟農業部跟園民會是不是應該全面的來重新盤點這些食品原料整合查詢平台然後希望能夠納入各民族的食用經驗啦"},{"start":15589.591,"end":15608.177,"text":"那第二個就是說希望這個部分能夠參採國內研究跟南島地區的實用經驗來認定原住民的傳統食材那請教一下部長這樣可以嗎謝謝委員這麼重要的一個我確定能真的非常感動的一個"},{"start":15610.206,"end":15621.198,"text":"催省跟訴求這個部分其實我們一直在在針對這樣的一個方向在一直都在前進中那是比較具體的現在做法是不行時要數江署長好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝委員這邊做一個補充"},{"start":15625.242,"end":15648.169,"text":"我們針對所謂原住民食材我們其實不只是原住民其實不同的譬如說客家的 閩南的等等不管任何一種我們是尊重原型的食材這件事情其實沒有什麼問題的這件事情特別提到跨部會的部分我們其實直接的收集跟各部會之間的協作我們會持續的進進"},{"start":15649.269,"end":15663.268,"text":"第三個是特別提到的我們在食品原料整合平台裡面查詢的特別特別提它不是正念表列它其實在食物裡面有一個很重要的原則叫做GRASSGenerally recognized as safe就是整體來"},{"start":15664.529,"end":15686.892,"text":"我們前輩前輩一直傳下來都算是安全的我知道所以在這種前提之下我們特別特別強調不以正面表列不是說以上面沒有的就成為裁罰但是地方政府搞不清楚就是會開放這部分我們會特別特別的就要加強的就這樣子宣布所以我希望能夠改善你們的那個平台輸入的那個平台"},{"start":15687.492,"end":15710.928,"text":"我們在這個部分會把更多的資訊能夠導入以上謝謝主長那再給我一分鐘就是還有一個我很關心的問題就是謝謝部長因為我長期以來其實我家是沒有洗腎患者我們親戚間也沒有但是我在原鄉部落我很心疼這些洗腎患者因為他們很辛苦根本沒有辦法找到正職"},{"start":15712.253,"end":15726.301,"text":"然後呢會變成家裡的依賴人口很辛苦所以我一直很關心的是他們有一些是居住在深山我以司馬庫斯來講他要到竹東他最近的就是竹東要開車三個小時"},{"start":15727.822,"end":15750.175,"text":"然後再加上坐的時間跟回來的時間一整天很辛苦 舟車勞頓所以我一直很關心說可不可以怎麼樣去幫助他們那園民會那邊很謝謝他們有做安心上工就是讓他們可以在鄉裡面部落裡面做一些簡單的工作那衛福部這邊我也很感謝因為我有看到你們說要把"},{"start":15751.536,"end":15768.447,"text":"居家血月透析要納入健保給付了而且會在最快5月上路我非常的高興肯定但是我很擔心我們很多原鄉的病人看得到吃不到用不到為什麼因為他的要求很高病人及家屬要經過8到12週的訓練"},{"start":15771.529,"end":15799.307,"text":"那當然我覺得訓練是一定要的而且那些水用的水啊等等應該都需要規格很高這個我都知道但是我在這個地方是說可不可以把好事做盡是不是可以考量有一些特別偏遠的像納瑪夏像這種司馬庫斯這種特別遠的其實就可以在衛生所有衛生所他們有正式的場域有合格的護理人員等等讓他們能夠就近部長您覺得如何"},{"start":15800.339,"end":15825.065,"text":"我覺得這個方向是值得研議的啦因為我以前多年來也負責新竹縣的醫療像竹東那邊提供的像司馬庫斯各方面的那個都真的我的朋友在竹東服務常常要仿仿是一家第二家就要過另外一個山頭所以表示說這個真的醫療資源是相當的辛苦"},{"start":15825.905,"end":15850.552,"text":"那相關的一個當然要我們怎麼樣去符合醫療法然後在健保上面給他鼓勵這部分那個時事長你有沒有要補充的好 謝謝跟委員說明因為這個居家透析這件事情是全球的趨勢這個對剛剛您提到的對民眾的便利性還有他這個透析的舒適度其實是比較高的"},{"start":15851.372,"end":15871.799,"text":"但是我們現在開放的是在家裡面至於在衛生所實施等於是說他家裡面沒有人然後他就必須要到衛生所來做那因為衛生所是屬於醫療機構那他有一些設置標準的要求所以能不能夠做透析我想我們來研究看看可不可以在兩個星期內做一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":15872.719,"end":15876.723,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳立老委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的答詢我們下一位請葉元之委員發言麻煩請部長 謝謝請邱部長"},{"start":15902.952,"end":15921.237,"text":"委員好部長好因為我接觸到非常多藥師還有一些病有一些會擔心自己買不到藥的病人他還是很擔心說會因為川普關稅戰的因素造成未來缺藥我看到部長這兩天都一直在信心喊話"},{"start":15922.037,"end":15948.909,"text":"比如包括像癌症包括像其他的藥都不會缺啦你是說不一定發生的事情大家不用先擔心啦即便是有缺藥也都是會做好準備可是大家還是很擔心為什麼呢因為我們衛福部在年初的時候就已經訂了新藥的基準價嘛那現在美國的藥會上漲這個是大家可以預期的為什麼呢因為他們現在美中在關稅戰那美國的藥很多原料是來自於中國跟印度"},{"start":15949.485,"end":15966.994,"text":"那如果中國的藥的原料進到美國去成本上升那當然它製藥的價格就會提高那提高之後來台灣那因為我們年初就已經訂了藥的基準嘛所以如果假設我們沒有辦法去買這個藥就缺藥啦就會造成缺藥"},{"start":15967.734,"end":15989.01,"text":"那即便是衛福部這邊有做出因應方案根據過去缺藥的經驗往往藥商都是提供給有合約的大型醫院然後社區診所就拿不到藥所以過去很多次缺藥其實都是這樣的情形所以我們不知道因為部長現在都席至如今對於這個事情都席至如今都說有因應但是大家都不知道方案"},{"start":15989.81,"end":15998.597,"text":"所以可不可以如果你認為你已經準備好了可不可以很清楚的告訴大家你現在所做的準備到底是什麼為什麼台灣不會面臨到缺藥的危機"},{"start":16002.679,"end":16026.321,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 這的確是非常重要當然最重要就是要盤點現在的狀況那等一下食藥署市長再報告盤點的狀況那我們過去缺藥的狀況的因應也不是最近其實也是長久以來都一直設立一個機制我們從列必要的一個藥品清單這些都要如果說"},{"start":16027.222,"end":16049.441,"text":"不夠可能六個月前就要來通知來處理那另外另外一個當然我們有缺藥的平台如果有任何問題不要不希望讓所有的醫療院所剛剛你講的包括診所都有一個反應這本來都一直有那在健保的一個局部裡面其實也不是說年初定了以後就就沒辦法調整啦他如果有改變"},{"start":16050.462,"end":16056.814,"text":"成本提高其實就可以把他的藥商可以來申請那這個部分的機制也都順暢所以這個部分"},{"start":16059.699,"end":16083.347,"text":"這是大概我們這樣的一個機制過去來應應各種缺藥的狀況這是可能啦但是所以有時候會發生那是因為各種原因我們都會去解決有時候是說要拍電影就是要想想啊有些廠商不要不想做這樣子所以這也是一個問題啊你不可能叫廠商做肥本的生意所以這個部分也都是一個問題所以你們假如說藝術這怎麼處理呢這當然所以剛剛"},{"start":16087.528,"end":16095.752,"text":"我跟時事長都一直在已經講過跟大家報告過好幾次我們將有兩個辦法將會在4月27號以前來公告嘛那個就是扶植我們國內的製藥我現在不是問國內製藥我們先針對這個問題回答啦因為大家擔心的是缺藥問題缺藥你是要說缺國內的藥還是說缺國際的"},{"start":16112.521,"end":16134.751,"text":"我記得嘛我剛講了嘛就是說美國關稅因為他比如說他美中貿易大戰嘛美國的藥他的成本提高嘛提高之後那我們對藥價有控制嘛那可能就沒有辦法買嘛沒有辦法買就會缺藥那即便是要供應也是供應給大型醫院嘛所以社區醫院跟診所或者是社區藥局會擔心嘛現在是問題在這裡嘛"},{"start":16136.132,"end":16163.422,"text":"而且因為剛剛部長你提到的一些方法並沒有過去曾經並沒有面對到類似這樣的大型的突發事件因為這是一個比較大型的突發事件美國川普他忽然間宣布藥的關稅漲多少就是多少他忽然宣布多少就是多少你剛剛說缺藥的監測是六個月半年你的半年的監測可能沒有辦法應付他忽然出現的突發事件"},{"start":16164.102,"end":16171.185,"text":"所以你不能用過去的經驗來來沙盤推演未來可能遇見的狀況我現在是提醒這件事關稅進口到台灣是零關稅啦所以我們會預期它會增加是因為美國的原料美國的藥本身變貴了嘛我們就算零關稅它的藥還是變貴啦這個量是會多少那是哪一種種類我們都已經盤點"},{"start":16186.85,"end":16201.168,"text":"那盤點以後當然我們就會去應應嘛不是啦總之讓人們有需要我問你一個問題啦你現在你能夠預測說到時候川普他對美國對中國的要的關稅他會提高多少你可以預測這件事嗎"},{"start":16202.059,"end":16217.799,"text":"他們現在講的全部的對等關稅是100多%欸那你今天美國的藥跟中國進原料他的成本是提高很多欸不是你想的這樣欸那他的藥的成本提高那麼多以後台灣這邊編的藥價就沒有辦法購買嘛沒辦法購買就會缺藥嘛"},{"start":16220.703,"end":16246.454,"text":"那你現在你剛剛講一堆機制都是過去的經驗嘛我現在問的是說你有沒有針對這個關稅可能會造成的影響你有做因應啊因為你現在講的都是過去的機制比如說藥缺藥用六個月去監測或什麼之類平台或是你現在是如果假設藥變非常貴你是會用補助還是怎麼樣還是說健保之外要叫那些病友自費你的方案到底是什麼嘛"},{"start":16247.711,"end":16266.079,"text":"我們基本上那個這個因為你講的很模糊嘛對 你的方案到底是什麼還是說如果說您不清楚的話請處長回答還可以方案就是說如果成本成本提高我們健保本來就有機制來幾戶多那我們也有準備剛剛處長有提我們有那個風險基金"},{"start":16271.261,"end":16297.407,"text":"會一起風險的基金來補這個那另外我們還有安全準備基金所以這個部分都是可以來所以意思是什麼意思是說比如美國的藥它變高了然後第一個你會去調整調漲藥價基準是不是讓那些代理商可以買到比較貴的藥那病友就要花比較多錢去買這個藥不是這個藥都是健保給付健保通通會健保給付然後會補貼"},{"start":16300.84,"end":16322.468,"text":"全部都健保給付自費都不會受影響跟委員報告因為這些藥品裡面我們剛剛盤點過在美國以美國製造的為例的話72項的必要藥品裡頭大概有24項是癌藥那癌藥呢在我們目前是屬於重大傷病所以是不用部分負擔等於健保全部cover了"},{"start":16322.768,"end":16329.073,"text":"健保會宣布哈佛然後你們確定就是藥價基準會提高絕對不會因為藥品支付標準34條來調整絕對不會因為美國的藥的成本變高之後然後讓我們的買不到藥沒有藥價絕對不會"},{"start":16339.142,"end":16354.85,"text":"所以你認為你們在那邊確定說不會有缺藥的標準不會有缺藥確定如果這個是全球性的原料不足而缺藥那當然我們沒有辦法如果是價格的問題我先講價格的問題所以好啦 魏浦浦在這邊有做出保證絕對不會因為價格的關係"},{"start":16357.891,"end":16382.891,"text":"第二個我再問一個簡單問一個議題啦因為這個滿嚴重的跟器官捐贈有關最近很多民進黨的人在網路上帶風向我想請衛福部做一個嚴正的澄清下一頁他們的邏輯是這樣啦就是說以來有一個羅東的不愛醫院因為他的孫女嫁給了薄瓜瓜薄熙來的兒子"},{"start":16383.769,"end":16409.606,"text":"然後呢好像這個羅東醫院就跟中國大陸有連結啦然後剛好羅東醫院又跟北醫有做一個器官捐贈的平台然後呢再加上剛好陳玉珍委員他們有推一個離島建設條例裡面有說要引進外國資源來解決離島的醫療問題其實外國引進外國資源不包括中國大陸嘛因為按照我們中華民國憲法外國就不包括中國大陸但是"},{"start":16410.447,"end":16436.35,"text":"民進黨的人就做一個連結就說你看宜蘭羅東醫院搞這個東西然後就有中國醫生進來中國醫生進來之後呢會不會我們的器官就移植到中國去這幾天在網路上討論很熱烈然後有一個曾經代表民進黨選過立委的一個學者他就說他收到很多媽媽的憂心都很害怕他的小朋友的器官被摘掉"},{"start":16437.355,"end":16447.667,"text":"我想問部長我們現在台灣包括羅東醫院包括北醫有在做這種事嗎會把我們的器官弄到中國去嗎有這種事嗎"},{"start":16450.017,"end":16474.995,"text":"我們的一個器官的移植的辦法相當的嚴格而且現在都是AI在做 你怎麼可能 不可能嘛但是你知道他們在網路上帶這種風向會造成什麼結果嗎你知道多少醫護人員他要勸說家屬把器官捐贈出來其實要花很多的心力因為捐贈器官其實是救人的包括賴清德總統在2015年都曾經宣導過請大家捐贈器官"},{"start":16476.036,"end":16502.833,"text":"我認識的一個朋友他從小心臟不好爸媽都已經簽了急救的放棄書了後來因為等到一顆心臟重獲新生所以很多人其實在等別人捐器官在重獲新生結果最近居然為了搞政治在網路上帶這種風向請部長嚴正的斥責這樣的行為我覺得是對醫護人員很大的打擊而且是對這些等器官的病人是很大的傷害"},{"start":16503.573,"end":16529.063,"text":"要搞政治可以啊 為什麼要去傷害醫護咧為什麼要傷害大家健康呢作為健康主管機關的衛福部部長你看到這樣的言論你可以接受嗎我想我們都不能做沒有根據的一種傳言或者論述啦那這第一個 這樣是不好的那第二個 那個我們台灣的一個器官的管理是相當的嚴格嘛 跟中國有關係嗎"},{"start":16530.592,"end":16553.528,"text":"沒有關係宜蘭羅東醫院跟北醫有在跟中國搞什麼器官捐贈嗎?或器官移植有沒有?北醫有嗎?北醫以前陳時中部長都是北醫出來的北醫有搞這種事嗎?有嗎?在我們的ANGLE管理之下應該不會發生不可能的事嘛我希望衛福部可以去查這些假消息好不好"},{"start":16554.926,"end":16580.964,"text":"他在破壞我們好不容易建立的制度啦影響到衛福部我希望衛福部去查這個事啊是真的很不可取啦好不好部長可以去查嗎網路上現在超多在帶這個風向請拿出破例出來叫他們不要破壞我們醫療體系啦可以嗎幫北醫幫宜蘭羅東博愛醫院幫所有辛苦的醫護人員討個公道也幫我們病人"},{"start":16582.436,"end":16587.9,"text":"幫我們的病人努力維繫他們的健康可以嗎好 我們一起往這方面來努力 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳穎委員來做懸導"},{"start":16616.694,"end":16639.404,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請衛福部長請 部長委員好部長好 之前呢我跟莊瑞雄委員有積極處理這個台東馬街醫護宿舍改建的事情那在這邊也非常感謝部長大力的支持真的是功德一見創全力支持好 謝謝"},{"start":16642.786,"end":16661.683,"text":"但是我想在這個過程當中我們跟院方有很多的對談那特別就是馬街的這個王院長他有跟我提到一件事就是說他在台東服務30年那看這個就是說來來去去的這個醫護人員太多了"},{"start":16662.344,"end":16689,"text":"那很多就是政府希望在這個補充偏鄉醫療資源的政策往往沒有辦法實際留住這個偏鄉的醫護人才因為很多有時候政策的這些辦法沒有政策沒有辦法到位就像之前我有提過就是偏鄉的這個醫院住院的護理偏鄉醫院住院護理費根本是沒有反映到這個護理師的所得那"},{"start":16690.54,"end":16706.167,"text":"很多的偏鄉的醫師為什麼留不住因為在偏鄉醫院看診的收入幾乎都是全部要列入所得課稅如果是在西部地區開診所"},{"start":16707.527,"end":16731.853,"text":"那这些医生的这个医疗收入有八成他是可以被认列在这个成本里面所以很多偏乡的医师最后呢干脆就到西部自己去开诊所也不会留在偏乡那因为同样的收入他去开诊所要缴的税相对是可以少掉许多特别"},{"start":16732.873,"end":16759.951,"text":"这个王院长还有跟我提到一个建议那本席这样听了也觉得非常的不错我想这样这个意见这个样的一个建议是绝对可以直接让偏乡的医护受惠然后我们政府也不用再编列什么补助而且可以直接反映到这个偏乡医护的身上就是我们来规划偏乡医护税制的优惠"},{"start":16760.831,"end":16780.681,"text":"好那增加這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額部長您也是醫師我這樣的建議我想相信部長應該很有感那麼我們針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額呢也跟這個也會同這個衛福部跟財政部一起開過會"},{"start":16782.802,"end":16800.531,"text":"但是我要提醒就是說這件事情需要這個目的事業主管機關來發起財政部是不會主動幫你們提出這樣子的一個方案所以這件事情是不是部長可以由衛福部盡快來研議提出好我想"},{"start":16805.858,"end":16831.511,"text":"協助那個偏鄉醫療的人力是我們非常重要的工作跟目標啦用任何的方法能夠把它留出來我們都一定當然要合乎法規 合乎規定的方法或者創造更多的計畫包括譬如說醫中計畫啦 各種計畫但是如果實行到一段時間覺得那些計畫好像王院長還會覺得不夠"},{"start":16834.653,"end":16848.378,"text":"我想這個也不是王院長一個人王院長在那邊服務很久他也很瞭解像馬捷醫院要把人到那邊真的是非常的"},{"start":16849.418,"end":16876.578,"text":"對 我們也不要離題太多啦就是針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除了的部分是不是衛福部可以盡快來演繹好 我們盡快來演繹好 那另外就是說在討論的過程也有講到我們有提到幾個問題就是說這個醫院的適用對象你們提到這個偏鄉醫院的認定通常都是山地離島地區的醫院那或者是醫療資源缺乏地區醫院"},{"start":16877.939,"end":16893.447,"text":"可是用兩個框架下去看我們去看花蓮的慈濟或者是台東幾家大的醫院全部都是被排除在外"},{"start":16895.148,"end":16922.024,"text":"因为这些医院的所在地不会是医疗资源缺乏地区但是他的生活机能确实是无法和西部地区来相比较愿意到东部服务的医护确实是比较好甚至在台东开到一个月51万的薪水都没有医生要去所以我在这里建议到第三个就是说原住民原住民族地区的医院"},{"start":16922.944,"end":16945.423,"text":"那這三個認定標準之外本席還想就是說列出第四個有些醫院可能就是說他地處偏鄉那比較不容易在這個前三項的不是在這個前三項的範圍內譬如說這個南投的竹山秀傳醫院也是不容易留住醫護人才的地方"},{"start":16946.184,"end":16958.775,"text":"所以我希望說可以在這個稅制的優惠上讓偏鄉增加一點誘因然後也感謝所有這些醫護人員為偏鄉的奉獻我不曉得這樣的建議部長怎麼看"},{"start":16961.179,"end":16965.581,"text":"我相當的支持我們過去的確跟我曾經在財委會過也爭取了特別的課諸額但是都不太會成功所以這個我們會特別來補"},{"start":16980.805,"end":17007.865,"text":"要跟財政部好好來溝通一下很多的時候我是吉祥物所以我覺得我們這個有時候時間點不一樣或者他比較成熟或有一些這個很多的因素加起來搞不好這是一個好時機對 如果說像王院長他們只有這樣是有幫助的話表示他們已經想很久覺得這是有幫助那你感謝委員這麼關心而且能夠提議這麼具體我想衛福部一定來研議"},{"start":17008.746,"end":17030.481,"text":"好那因為接下來是繳稅的季節今年肯定是來不及啦所以我們再加把勁希望就是說看看明年可不可以有好消息這樣子好的好的謝謝那另外這邊還有個問題也要特別另外請這個食藥署署長江署長一起上來好師生同台嗎"},{"start":17034.349,"end":17045.045,"text":"那個我就直接問了就是兩位都是醫學院的教授首先想要請到江署長醫療效果跟健康效應是不是一樣有沒有不同的意義"},{"start":17048.347,"end":17075.569,"text":"醫療效果是某一個疾病診斷治療前後健康的效應它是一個通稱那有時候跟委員那個垂尋壓力相對放下那個健康效果效應就是比較好所以中間其實是會有不一樣的意義在因為本期不是食品OK好再請教部長如果不一樣的話我們可不可以這樣解讀就是說"},{"start":17076.63,"end":17077.631,"text":"看起來是OK的"},{"start":17104.284,"end":17131.363,"text":"只要是藥物都是他治療的是療效可是對於一般的食品你不能宣稱任何的療效他就會違反到我剛剛應該沒有說錯什麼啦是好那我們對於這個健康跟醫療的差別其實是很容易溝通啦那可是呢當我看到食品安全衛生法的一個認定規則當下還有點傻眼就是說兩位看一下這個規定"},{"start":17133.584,"end":17155.695,"text":"名称叫做食品及相关产品标示宣导广告涉及不实夸张一身误解或医疗效果的认定准则来看一下准则第五条食品之标示宣传或广告有下列情形之一认定为涉及医疗效能"},{"start":17156.335,"end":17173.387,"text":"那涉及預防改善減輕診斷或治療疾病症候群或症狀好再來就是涉及減輕或降低導致疾病有關之體內成分那第三個是涉及中藥材效能"},{"start":17176.789,"end":17198.538,"text":"所以藥品是針對已經有疾病症狀來治療用的它本身不是用來預防改善的目的本席這樣子表述有沒有錯誤我沒有設定沒有設定任何陷阱讓大家跳我們只是釐清一些概念而已我稍微說明一下如果是藥品"},{"start":17199.329,"end":17213.649,"text":"它對於一定是來自於這個藥物的治療之下產生的效果對特定產生 比如說膽固醇的下降那我們下降到什麼程度其實是有實證科學的證據底下最後"},{"start":17214.875,"end":17236.588,"text":"核給他這個藥物的適應症所以他的上市是從藥物的開始前期以及中間的臨床的試驗確定到開始的我們長期的療效這個是屬於藥品的適應的食品的部分其實我們是最基本的食品其實是為了我們的生活跟生命的延續所以他是必須要的"},{"start":17237.268,"end":17261.277,"text":"我想但是就是說這個食品或者保健食品它所強調的或是大家所關切的就是涉及一些症狀及預防改善那現在準則的這一條規定已經把所有涉及苗樹健康效應的範疇通通把它納為醫療效能連這個營養成分都不可以講因為涉及減輕疾病有關的這個體內成分也都不可以講"},{"start":17266.619,"end":17287.831,"text":"那明明你們主管的這個營養及健康飲食促進法所定義的營養成分例如糖類蛋白質維生素礦物質要求食品業者要多添加及宣導結果只要講了任何的這個健康效應就會變成不實的醫療效果的廣告"},{"start":17288.591,"end":17302.863,"text":"那這樣子不就是只准週關放火然後不准百姓點燈嗎因為這個動輒裁罰有收幾百萬上千萬那甚至就是有些公司因此不得不關門大吉"},{"start":17305.905,"end":17325.716,"text":"就是說我們這樣看起來說原來說消滅產業才是準則的最大功效看起來好像變成是這樣因為業者他不敢就是說完整標示完整然後讓消費者就是說我們現在很多就是我們不知道自己在買什麼吃什麼"},{"start":17327.157,"end":17345.878,"text":"比較誠實的業者然後就是說寫了經過實驗認證的功效反而也是被罰的所以最後大家怎麼樣會變成說好像大家改做進口商當然很多消費者就是專門去買日韓的健康食品"},{"start":17347.059,"end":17364.95,"text":"所以我不希望說這個衛福部變成是促進日韓健康食品產業的最大幫手因為這些國家他們沒有這樣子像筷子手一樣的準則我今天用詞比較重一點啦因為你們這個有時候這個比例裁罰也是很重的"},{"start":17365.55,"end":17390.524,"text":"這個都是為了國人的健康但是我想在很多的面向到底合不合理有沒有跟上時代這個是大家要去深思因為畢竟目前這個賴總統很重要國政健康台灣不就是要培養我們國人的這個健康的觀念從飲食上好的這個健康促進來提升免疫力然後減少這個癌症及慢性病的發生率可是因為這些法規過時狹隘"},{"start":17392.785,"end":17411.174,"text":"以及這些好像感覺很威權的這樣的一個觀念然後不准這個實名業者去宣導經過學術認證的健康效應我想這個有時候我們誤把風景這個當作馬良所以我想今天提出這樣子的一個一些這樣的議題我們來溝通啊"},{"start":17414.367,"end":17434.417,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢特別是針對食品的部分在台灣是健康食品法針對我們的食品有宣稱它的所謂的功效的部分我們有13種的認定那這認定我們會給小綠人標章至於委員順便提到的有相當多的保健相關的食品"},{"start":17435.057,"end":17457.271,"text":"那因為健康食品強調是保健功效嘛所以很多我們一般的食品呢他宣稱他是叫做所謂的保健食品在這種情形之下呢裡面有很多重要的所謂的功能性的一些成分所以目前我們署內也是積極的在研議希望把這些功能性的成分能夠納入我們納管的範圍裡面"},{"start":17459.352,"end":17483.155,"text":"那最近呢我們其實是遇到的一個最重要的一個議題或許委員也了解那因為有很多很多的採購購買在電視裡面的廣告裡面有很多的家長長輩們的採用之下其實它相對於它的所謂的功效的部分會有相對的是讓人家是覺得是神乎其技的"},{"start":17483.695,"end":17507.619,"text":"那我覺得這部分我們在廣告這部分特別會注意本席剛剛提的我要討論的內容並不是要去討論這個被業者誇大的層面而是經實驗證實它有這個效應的部分是不是可以如實的納入而不被當作是好像誇大或者是宣稱了什麼醫療的這個的"},{"start":17511.201,"end":17525.834,"text":"功效去被裁罰所以我想這個是兩個議題本席肯定你們去把這些誇大不實的這些業者狠狠的給他罰但是有些在"},{"start":17526.534,"end":17532.881,"text":"法規的這個擴大的這個有點無限上綱的這個不合理的這個規範我覺得我們應該要與時俱進畢竟有日本韓國這樣子的國家我們是可以去參考的"},{"start":17542.731,"end":17562.709,"text":"那因为我知道你们一定会去提到这个健康食品的认证其实坦白讲健康食品的认证也产生了一样类似的问题他能讲的提到的也还是很局限所以这个部分本席真的要拜托你们好好的去做一个检讨"},{"start":17563.109,"end":17591.141,"text":"特別是部長也是在總統府的健康台灣推動委員會裡面擔任執行秘書所以這個部分我希望就是說大家來為這個發展台灣健康產業的經濟規模來做努力而不是去限縮國人的健康權所以這個部分我希望你們是不是可以在能不能在多久內來檢討完畢然後修訂這個不合理的行政命令"},{"start":17593.281,"end":17597.626,"text":"協力使用署可不可以先到委員辦公室去了解一下整個"},{"start":17600.345,"end":17621.892,"text":"因為這限制到蠻多要處理的了解一下,然後兩個月內提出怎麼樣改善、怎麼樣處理的報告好,那就兩個月到中間也歡迎我們大家來多溝通謝謝因為我對新的署長有很大的期待謝謝,他是實戰專家署長就趕快去"},{"start":17627.817,"end":17656.757,"text":"來接下來鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在羅美玲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在鄭振誠委員鄭振誠委員鄭振誠委員不在顏匡衡委員顏匡衡委員顏匡衡委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在何欣存委員何欣存委員何欣存委員不在林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員不在黃捷委員黃捷委員黃捷委員不在"},{"start":17657.54,"end":17670.225,"text":"林德虎委員林德虎委員林德虎委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在來請陳冠廷委員慢慢請部長來有請部長"},{"start":17675.615,"end":17700.822,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們最近健保署有發生一個比較重大的一個資安的案件甚至不是資安是跟國安相關的我們是不是也請署長也一併來這個前健保署主密他好像有倒賣一些重要的資訊給中國目前這樣的狀況掌握到什麼樣的情形"},{"start":17704.458,"end":17727.217,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個健保署的月前阻密它是在112年間檢調開始啟動調查那1月的時候開始調查112年1月開始調查那因為到目前為止都還沒有偵查終結起訴所以等於是還在偵查中所以我們就內部有沒有"},{"start":17728.158,"end":17753.569,"text":"掌握到說是不是有些重要的資訊已經洩漏出去了因為我們是配合這個行政的部分配合檢方的調查那目前並沒有被告知這樣那我想請教一下那整個健保署也好或者衛福部裡面針對這一些在行政上面的調查有沒有已經開始或者是說有之前就已經有些報告"},{"start":17754.909,"end":17778.315,"text":"因為我們剛剛跟委員我們是針對說我們如何繼續的強化那因為這個是在司法部公開的原則上我們大概不便對外說明但是我們內部上的有做若干的這個強化措施這樣我想請教一下像是前組密他們會不要經過公務人員的基本的背景查核就是做一些安全審核等等的"},{"start":17780.064,"end":17795.957,"text":"當任公務員的時候除了一些特殊的職類之外一般並沒有通常是有正面表列他是不是在正面表列裡面他是不是他不是你覺得他是不是應該要理論上這樣子的職位是不是應該要列入這些表列中"},{"start":17796.817,"end":17812.192,"text":"因為他的職位是主任秘書啦那這個職位其實在各個單位也都有類似的職位所以目前並沒有被列入我剛才問題不是說有沒有被列入的事你覺得是不是應該就你一個機關的首長你的看法認為呢"},{"start":17815.592,"end":17842.826,"text":"就我們現在健保當然他是有很多的這個個資的資料在所以我們在內部的這個機制上的是十分的強調這個內控的機制包含他的授權還有最小範圍授權哪些人可以接觸到資料然後這個資料調閱的時候要以最小範圍為原則同時呢盡可能的要去掉這個可辨識資料等等最小範圍"},{"start":17844.428,"end":17851.059,"text":"為主然後然後授權主秘需要知道嗎主秘需要知道這些資訊嗎"},{"start":17852.717,"end":17874.839,"text":"要看他的業務,我們會根據他的業務那他要調閱資料的時候,都要他的直屬長官要同意才可以每一個我們的規定是這樣逐一的直屬長官是...那就會到那個署長署長,會到署長,那署長知不知情啊像這些最近他的這些重大的已經上新聞的事情他應該知道吧"},{"start":17875.94,"end":17899.131,"text":"因為那個時候不是我還沒到這個署裡面我現在講簡單一點我把這個總的統整起來跟大家講一下我們現在在做的是機關保防那其實現在我們正面表列主要都是以安全人員情報人員或者是會接觸機密資訊的國防外交安全為主安全保安局等等"},{"start":17899.711,"end":17927.524,"text":"但是現在看起來中國的它的能量它的滲透的部分它已經是不包含一個機關了它是跨部會的那跨部會裡面就過去我們認為說社福相關的未還等等它可能不是會接觸到基民資訊的人但是因為就不管是在新聞上媒體所揭露出來的我們的國家安全情報人員等等他們還是有健保他們也要用健保的資訊所以這些資訊還是有可能會去被滲透所以我是希望說"},{"start":17929.979,"end":17957.39,"text":"這個部長你們可以給我一個出面的報告認為說哪些人員會接觸到機敏資訊的人員是不是要納入那些正面表列接受一些安全的核可所有安全的核可包含出入境紀錄包含他的財務等等是不是要有最基本的這樣的做法部長怎麼看我們大概能在的就是衛福部主管的範圍嘛這保持要"},{"start":17959.187,"end":17981.75,"text":"是一個啦 當然衛生資料有幾十個那大概是健保資料一般來講是最為重要所以我們現在也剛好在行政院審議這個健保資料的一個使用的狀況表示我們對這個是很重視那這個案例好像祖密這個部分是無權去接觸到資料的啦"},{"start":17982.39,"end":18004.946,"text":"是業務單位,是業務單位嘛,業務單位才有辦法接觸所以這個怎麼防弊,不是防阻密,我的看法是防那個接觸到資料的這就是我們剛才講的嘛,這個機關保防裡面哪些人員他需要接觸到這些資訊嘛那需要知道這些資訊的人才會要被授權知道這些資訊"},{"start":18006.467,"end":18021.538,"text":"這個之外這些人是不是有最基本的背景合格這個可能我們也是希望納入在裡面正面表列現在整個行政院他整個正面表列的大概是有一千多個職務嘛那我想說是不是有一些健保署相關的也要把他納入職務我們來檢討一下因為從櫃檯就開始有接觸了"},{"start":18025.16,"end":18045.627,"text":"就開始有接觸相關的資料所以可能還有就是接觸整個比較大的庫的這可能比較沒關係這個部長這個可能內部幕僚在想要趕快再補充最後一個問題關於這個也是跟國家安全比較有關的跟部長請教一下之前我們有討論到這個戰備醫療物資整備的狀況那我們也是希望"},{"start":18049.648,"end":18066.349,"text":"國防部 權動署來去監測等等但是去年5月到現在因為去年5月到去年12月大概花了大概半年的時間我們才把這個輸液短缺的情況來解決那輸液短缺的問題可能它不是量而是傷源就是說我們現在是監測的話是監測量"},{"start":18068.712,"end":18084.205,"text":"之外有沒有監測商源夠不夠還有一些商源國的包括我們自己本國還有其他國家如果你開發多重商源但是這些商源國有沒有在他們地緣政策上面有沒有一些或者是在他們的物流等等一些問題這些有沒有納入考量"},{"start":18086.363,"end":18106.706,"text":"有沒有制定出安全的存量還有安全存量之外它的商源量還有這些國內備援的生產機制現在狀況是怎麼樣好 這邊跟委員回應就針對輸液這個特定的議題來講我們跟委員先報告我們今年3月24號已經整個完整回到自由的市場的機制但是我們持續還是維持著去協調"},{"start":18107.867,"end":18136.374,"text":"那能夠假如有需要的時候做搭配因為就是來自於不同的來源的這個原料輸液各家的產線總量跟國內的使用量目前都是已經可以達到平衡所以從這個例子裡面針對剛才提到的所謂的國家醫藥的韌性的部分在所謂的平轉戰的一個階段我們也有進一步的去做一些考量因為這個部分的確是牽涉到國安的議題我們實際上一直都跟"},{"start":18137.954,"end":18161.776,"text":"國家的國安的部分呢做一些些的一些考量謝謝喔因為我再次強調因為那是最近的事情而已喔那我們要花八九個月才可以把基本的這個物資來調配完畢那更不用在成品狀況是這樣那在不成品的狀況的話有衝突的狀況在封鎖或者是阻隔的狀況我不知道要幾個月那所以這個要"},{"start":18163.649,"end":18173.959,"text":"要納入考量 因為你剛剛講到量也是但是當初國內市場市佔率是70%所以說商源也是很重要的這個要一併幫我們納入 謝謝謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 兩位署長"},{"start":18190.632,"end":18215.62,"text":"好 本會議詢問全部結束那委員圖權及林德福 邱振軍 徐欣盈 黃婕所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一 報告及詢問完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆為另要求期限者從期所定"},{"start":18216.66,"end":18220.484,"text":"本部會議到此結束,現在休息,星期四上午九點繼續開會,謝謝"},{"start":18241.008,"end":18242.028,"text":"要回去用餐了"},{"start":18262.775,"end":18263.435,"text":"這張是武漢的畫面"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}