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謝謝喔 我延續剛剛陳培宇委員的一些問題因為我其實一直以來我重視的問題一直以來我質詢過很多次的問題其實跟剛剛陳培宇委員所提出來其實蠻類似的其實一個很重要的狀況就是在陳少共犯的時候他所引發的偵查割裂的問題這個是我們目前一個還沒有徹底解決的一個難題"},{"start":46.141,"end":64.169,"text":"我想我今天要談的三個議題是前端少婦會制度的漏接還有終端陳少共犯偵查的割裂還有後面矯正廚藥的無效這根本都跟不上目前詐欺犯罪結構的變化那我們先講啦雖然上一次法務部長跟我在那邊"},{"start":65.289,"end":85.006,"text":"在那邊講來講去說他不認為詐欺是民怨第一名但我這邊還是跟各位報告我後來回去再詳細的調查過詐欺確實現在是民怨第一名我這邊先說第一件事情那我剛剛講的那三個問題也是我們現在為什麼詐欺犯越打越多少年車手抓不完的一個真相"},{"start":86.067,"end":104.515,"text":"那這個呢 顯示我們前端的漏接然後終端制度被卡死了然後最後送到矯正機關也是去度假然後虛隱故事 浪費人民的納稅錢所以整個系統都在失靈才會導致現在有源源不絕的小朋友被當免洗筷來做犯罪的事情"},{"start":105.896,"end":128.968,"text":"今天警政署的報告我看到在少年犯罪中有將近三成是和成年人共犯所以我們單看少年詐欺犯罪像車手就有超過一半以上都是成年人在背後控制所以呢但是事實上我跟各位報告現實上絕對是更多有太多的黑數了所以如果我們今天沒有完整的一個偵查"},{"start":130.356,"end":159.517,"text":"你根本抓不到後面是誰在操控這些少年所以詐騙集團通常都是集團性的甚至有一些還躲在國外或是有完整的防火牆如果這個沒有處理好永遠這個詐欺打不完那我們現在呢會不會我們整個少年法院變成是詐欺集團好用的一個工具因為我國有超級完整的少年保護結果會不會被詐欺集團剛好利用來"},{"start":161.427,"end":186.772,"text":"來當作吸收少年的一個工具因為他都跟那些少年犯講沒關係你被抓到了 前科也會突銷那你去了那法官也會把你當作是學生一樣的照顧那你出來了也沒事也不會有前科登記然後所以這些詐欺集團就源源不絕地用小朋友那其實受害的是誰是小朋友耶一批換掉 再一批 再一批 再一批有更多不同的"},{"start":187.765,"end":202.276,"text":"那个生力军进去所以我担心的是这个问题就我们会不会在以为误以为我们在保障未成年人的同时使我们是害惨了更多未成年人这是我们对于我们现在制度一定要去讲一个很重要的点"},{"start":202.876,"end":227.805,"text":"那因為上一次我也問過法務部跟司法院啦因為我們之前對於陳少共犯的這個偵查的方式其實有嚴重的割裂所以一般第一線的偵查人員跟我抱怨最多的就是他抓到一個詐欺集團成年人歸地檢署然後少年歸少年法院就整個偵查割裂那當然啦剛剛廳長也有提到說我們會有很多模式啦我們會盡快問完然後讓檢方來去"},{"start":229.266,"end":247.326,"text":"来把这个少年拿去问证人笔录但是我跟两位报告现场有很多当过检察官的人我们都知道很多时候问笔录就是那一瞬间我们都在跟时间赛跑啊第二个有很多人在被问第一次笔录的时候暗中出供他在第一次笔录的时候最有可能讲出事实"},{"start":247.887,"end":265.985,"text":"但是在第一次比喻问完之后在做第二次比喻的中间他知道你要问什么他知道已经被你知道了什么所以他会开始在圆自己的谎开始在那边跟你兜圈子所以第二次新闻比喻第三次新闻比喻的时候如果你没有更新的证据提出来你比喻常常问不到东西"},{"start":266.502,"end":284.632,"text":"那這個就是我現在擔心的一個點去少年法庭法官在第一次問完之後他後面在檢察官在問的時候他講的都跟前面都不一樣都是圓過之後的謊甚至少年犯他在到少年法院的時候有成年人跟著那成年人會怎麼樣教他要之後要怎麼面對檢察官這個"},{"start":286.751,"end":302.86,"text":"少年法庭這邊沒有考量過還有一個任何犯罪的偵辦我們有時候醞釀了他自然就醞釀了三個月 五個月 八個月都有可能但是我們把資料交給少年法庭的法官的時候他就只是那瞬間看完之後他根本搞不清楚這個案子"},{"start":303.16,"end":332.052,"text":"他就開始問筆錄了他問完之後會不會把整個案子毀掉讓這個少年犯本來會講的到檢察官那邊就不講我跟你講這都是偵查第一線 實務絕對遇到我現在跟各位報告的就是偵查實務第一線會遇到那我就說現在現場好幾位檢察官我都認識大家都知道我在講什麼這部分要麻煩那個廳長這是很嚴重的事情麻煩廳長因為廳長畢竟院方不是走偵查出身的還是要多跟法務部這邊溝通一下好嗎"},{"start":334.985,"end":356.55,"text":"我想現在我必須要跟國人報告幾個點第一個點就是像北檢破惡的扎梯集團裡面有五個少年在裡面就是北檢在偵辦就有一個少年戶籍在花蓮一個在新竹就還要求他們要把少年犯送到戶籍所在地的法院剛剛廳長有提到"},{"start":359.331,"end":387.943,"text":"就是這個部分 廳長現在是不是所有的就是依據行為地來處理就好 統一由行為地那邊的上聯法院來處理報告委員確定而且這個如果是駁回抗告一定二審會支持沒問題 因為我剛好聽你在回答陳培宇委員的部分那這個問題應該解決了就是強制全國要一致共用 不能說法官在說我是獨立審判好不好 這部分再麻煩您這邊要確定第二個就是"},{"start":389.071,"end":403.465,"text":"少年犯抓到24小时要送少年法院那很多时候侦查我们很清楚很多人不懂侦查他听24小时这么长时间你还没时间问吗但事实上我们在第一线侦查过的人就知道24小时远远不够用"},{"start":404.125,"end":431.343,"text":"我們有非常多的證物要釐清我們要搜索我們有很多證人要問所以24小時常常是不夠用的所以變成很多時候重要的證人是少年的時候我們會變成是檢察官看得到碰不到我們很想問這個少年你的上游是誰車手頭是誰但是呢很多時候因為少年要送少年法院然後就線索就從此斷掉這部分是很麻煩的一個很大的問題啦"},{"start":432.961,"end":439.274,"text":"所以聽講黃金24小時這個時間差喔制度上面你們有沒有思考該怎麼辦 該跟檢方怎麼處理"},{"start":442.798,"end":467.599,"text":"是 報告委員剛剛我有說明了三點的處理方式那麼但是如果還是不符合偵查議題迅速一起來處理那實質上各地檢跟少年法庭還有司法警察有三個精進的作為第一個就是說司法警察他有初步的詢問他的詢問的共犯跟上游會"},{"start":468.94,"end":483.568,"text":"更緊密去做第二個就是少年法官已經有共識對這個進來有共患的那警察單位有提供一些意見後檢察官的指揮室有提供意見那法官也會就這個共患詳細的來問這個少年"},{"start":486.209,"end":492.855,"text":"那麼法官跟檢察官詢問的證人筆錄都有證據能力這個是在協商共同方面第三點就是要朝著這個方向來走將來如果大家有共識要跟國外一樣要在陳紹公案有一個所謂偵查主體檢察官全部來處理但只要符合CRC就可以我們覺得會支持這個一起來研議修法好 謝謝廷長但我還要講一個因為我看過大家的報告"},{"start":515.407,"end":538.584,"text":"我覺得這個建議檢察官把問題交給法官問都有證據能力沒有錯但是你們考量的只是證據能力你們沒有考量到偵查細節的部分整個偵查失誤的問題所以說有時候看到這個我會覺得這好像就是大家在象牙塔辦公室裡面想出來的解決方法啦這個在第一線完全不好用而且絕對會耽誤到整個刑事的偵查"},{"start":539.545,"end":562.91,"text":"你要知道檢察官警察調查官他發動一個搜索是好幾個月偵查的這醞釀才出來的我剛有跟各位報告但是你要去叫一個法官要馬上要能夠搞清楚這個案子在搞什麼案子的核心是什麼不可能啦我們那個券有時候疊起來比人還要高法官真的沒有時間能夠理解案子是什麼所以這個不是一個真正解決"},{"start":564.19,"end":592.847,"text":"那個問題的方法就有時候甚至把偵查當惡戲只是給全國人民一個樣板來看我們有做了這些好像有效其實真的效果真的不好而且檢察官還要等法官開完庭在法官開庭之前甚至碰不到這個重要的證人這個少年犯這個會讓檢察官很難處理這個案子所以你們堅持程序正義沒有錯但是堅持程序正義難道要在犧牲打擊犯罪的效率上面"},{"start":594.207,"end":611.874,"text":"這兩個東西一定要平衡而不是說為了成於爭議打擊犯罪這個一點都不在乎因為你這樣子會製造更多的未成年被利用的被害人所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們少事法雖然是保護但是不能溺愛"},{"start":613.462,"end":635.465,"text":"我是擔心邵氏法現在的狀況已經變成溺愛未成年人那我剛剛講的溺愛未成年人看起來好像我國法治很保障未成年人但是最後的結果是什麼詐欺集團或這些犯罪集團更喜歡用這些年輕人因為沒有什麼成本另外我再請問一個主要的還有一個問題"},{"start":638.427,"end":667.665,"text":"我很擔心黑幫在陳紹共犯的時候他一直把小朋友當免洗筷警政署的報告就已經說這個房子著火了結果手上握有滅火器的司法院還在程序優先這個就不好了好不好真的跟偵查上面要有要一個橫頻不能說程序保障無限的擴大然後對於犯罪的偵查到最後就搞不定了這個可能"},{"start":668.789,"end":697.542,"text":"還是司法院你們再思考一下看有什麼改善的方式因為現在小朋友都覺得說反正我去問警察也不能對我怎麼樣那法官只是念一念叫我回去乖乖聽爸媽的話請問一下這個以現在的小朋友這有效果嗎所以我們不能讓本來應該成為社會棟樑的這些小朋友以後長大變成社會的問題這部分我想麻煩你們要注意我們真的很恐懼這些小孩子在這種縱容的制度之下價值觀會崩壞"},{"start":698.382,"end":712.739,"text":"或者是說我們也恐懼說未來台灣會不會充斥的這種很多沒有法治觀念的人這個再麻煩你們能了解那個警政署我想請問一下這個少年割頭案其實這個少年在"},{"start":714.481,"end":740.289,"text":"加害行為的前一年111年的時候就已經有被查獲身上有帶有刀子啦但是好像也沒有什麼處理嘛那警政署是認為說這個他不是經常性的攜帶刀切他只被查獲一次所以呢他沒有啟動保護機制那我想請問一下你們這麼拘泥於這種法律文字是不是就錯失了司法及早介入輔導的機會小朋友帶刀上學就有問題啊"},{"start":742.008,"end":759.545,"text":"阿你們有沒有希望說修正一些相關的標準有沒有跟委員報告就是因為他是在學在學所以變成這個輔導由學校來那個如果他不是如果是輟學就是當然我們的哨會會來做開案接辦那有關是現在"},{"start":761.078,"end":779.915,"text":"少數法的規定就是處罰 偏差 復選這些其實都是疊加的啦那我們也是請照會一直從要求 從後來做結案因為這樣我這樣聽來聽去還是比較官方式的說法啦那我還是跟各位報告一下"},{"start":781.65,"end":797.609,"text":"这个小朋友带刀上学这其实是一件蛮严重的事情不能说我们拘泥于文字说非经常性所以我们就不启动一些司法的厨艺因为这会让其他的未成年人在学校上学的那些小朋友其实都是陷于危险"},{"start":798.65,"end":812.812,"text":"這部分我想麻煩你們稍微看看文字的部分有沒有辦法再加以修正到能夠讓保障能夠更周全最後我是想請法務部還有矯正署"},{"start":818.493,"end":827.125,"text":"好 那個防護部的矯正署 我要提一個數據監獄內 詐欺洗錢受刑人佔全體受刑人的20%那少年矯正學校"},{"start":829.673,"end":850.623,"text":"跟詐欺有關的這些學生佔26%也就是說成人監獄的五分之一少年矯正機關的四分之一都跟詐欺犯有關所以你們的但是你們的處遇策略只有最老掉牙的法治教育上課輔導你們就只有這個但是上課有效嗎很多上課無效因為"},{"start":851.784,"end":876.917,"text":"如果上课有效他在外面听老师讲就会很有效果了所以不能只拘泥在请他们坐在教室里面听还有就是说有时候我们说医疗上面对于没有病逝感的病人要怎么医治这是很多医生烦恼的事情那这些少年犯他们去ATM领钱他面对的一个机器把钱领出来他没有办法去感受到那些被害人"},{"start":877.95,"end":896.156,"text":"那个痛心疾首甚至自杀的那种痛苦他们感受不到嘛所以你今天叫他那边上课跟他一直讲然后他就在底下玩他的那我有去监所去视察那我们去的时候那矫正所去视察那老师在上面上课小朋友在后面做他自己的事情"},{"start":896.656,"end":911.226,"text":"所以效果不大 這個變成我們在騙納稅人而已我們在騙一般的民眾說我們有在做 事實上一點效果都沒有所以對小朋友來說 矯正機關是上上課 去度假中心去度個假 白吃白喝的 然後"},{"start":912.226,"end":929.345,"text":"度個假就出來又度金了他們的想法是這樣這樣是不會悔悟的他們也不懂得自己對社會傷害多大所以我希望法務部能夠在兩個月內提出詐欺犯圖譽的精進報告那內容必須包括第一個引入被害人NGO的保護團體進行衝擊式的輔導"},{"start":932.228,"end":958.683,"text":"因為我們在跟金管會接觸的時候金管會也是跟我們建議現在很多詐欺犯其實很多銀行他們認為說自己要盡到企業的社會責任他們願意提供一些服務提供一些對於這些詐欺未成年被告的幫助那你們是不是可以跟他們結合去運用社會的資源去把這些被害人這種保護的NGO團體我們能夠把他引入去協助"},{"start":959.943,"end":986.088,"text":"然後甚至呢我們讓被害人能夠對這些小朋友能夠現身處地的告訴他家庭因為這個詐欺案而怎麼樣分崩離析甚至有人去自殺我自己就驗過因為受詐欺而自殺的的死者啊我自己都驗過了那我也問過好幾個以前同事大家都都有驗類似的經驗有驗過那種因為受詐欺而去自殺的所以這不是一個社會少數的問題那還有"},{"start":988.894,"end":1005.467,"text":"请落实劳动工作矫正他们的金钱观要让他们知道一分耕耘一分收获而不是用骗的骗到的就是自己的那笑评不笑娼然后有钱就好不能让他们这样还有就是少年出所之后更生还有职业转弦"},{"start":1006.368,"end":1025.838,"text":"也要請那個司法院的少年保護官也要稍微落實一下啦因為我要強調法務部一定要知道矯正機關是司法最後一道防線你前面沒有處理好或是前面辦了然後丟給矯正機關就矯正機關也沒有處理好就大家就一團亂就我們現在其實有一點失控了啦這個不是說交交報告寫一寫就好"},{"start":1026.198,"end":1051.566,"text":"你要真的落實能夠解決他們問題的而且也請思考院不要在哪保護未成年人當做一切的藉口然後要整個讓犯罪偵查都無效最後10秒鐘今天有一份新聞就是有受刑人在抱怨說監所裡面他帶小朋友進去"},{"start":1052.586,"end":1080.301,"text":"受刑的时候结果小朋友的营养还不足他吃的东西根本小朋友吃这些东西营养会不够他已经出来抱怨了还有小朋友在哭的时候他只能把小朋友抱到走廊或抱到公用厕所里面去安抚还有监所里面过于闷热小朋友那些有的年纪很小一岁两岁受不了在那边哭闹这个不对耶今天父母犯错小孩子不能让他进去一起"},{"start":1081.328,"end":1104.198,"text":"一起這樣子啦你們是不是要改善有帶小朋友進去受刑的這些受刑人你是要改善一下他們的環境因為不是為了這個受刑人而是為了小孩好不好這小孩是無辜的就小孩子在裡面吃的東西營養也不足要接受醫療接受早療跟醫療協助也沒有機會然後小朋友"},{"start":1104.918,"end":1132.65,"text":"他說連需要活動一個禮拜只能安排三次每次十分鐘的戶外活動那你這小朋友的健康會受影響啊拜託去釐清這些事情是不是真的這個事情跟剛剛那些我都非常的重視我想今天主席一定非常重視帶未成年人進去受刑的結果小朋友一個禮拜只能三次每次十分鐘戶外活動你要這個運動量大的小朋友怎麼辦稍微說明一下因為這個報導有點"},{"start":1134.131,"end":1148.927,"text":"沒問題 我今天不用因為沒有時間了我只是說請你們釐清告訴我一下這個報導真實性以及如果他說的是真的改善的方式為何好不好好 這就是國家未來的棟樑啦好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員也謝謝兩位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}