{"error":false,"id":["165982"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":165982,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165982","日期":"2025-11-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-19-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-11-27T12:04:21+08:00","結束時間":"2025-11-27T12:12:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158599f2b7d2df70613c1bd93e540dfe0040e3e649524f2f4882b5f9ce4f0ed6650c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:04:21 - 12:12:30","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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有請部長 林保署署長 原民會的代表原民會今天有來嗎好 麻煩一下 我們的賴總統他在最近高喊重啟工地放領他說要把將近2000公頃的土地還給真正的耕作者那這同時也有人"},{"start":37.219,"end":57.515,"text":"就是要提案打著地級不清的旗號要修法然後把目前國有零出租給從來沒有繳過租金的現況者來使用而當你們在做這些事情的時候請問一下原住民族土地的轉型正義你們有思考過嗎請問部長"},{"start":61.192,"end":86.077,"text":"我們在考慮這些相關的傳統領域的部分我們特別是在森林跟原住民有關的我們一直朝向山林共管的方式跟原住民和諧共管的方式來處理這是我們一致的態度好 謝謝我讓您看一下一張圖我們把這張圖攤開來看看一下國有領辦地和原住民族的傳統領域我相信園民會你應該知道"},{"start":86.826,"end":108.303,"text":"这两者几乎完全重叠的而这些所有的重叠的土地它从来也不是无主地这是我们的祖先原住民族的祖先在我们的政府来到台湾之前就已经在这边耕作狩猎生活的地方"},{"start":109.417,"end":130.625,"text":"而總統府的原轉會他也承認了這樣子原住民族的傳統領域而退補會台唐林業署掌管了非常多的土地他本質上就是原住民族的傳統領域這些官方資料"},{"start":131.405,"end":159.496,"text":"看一下這個都是官方資料不是高金素梅自己畫的他就是實打實打實證的鐵證我要在這邊說的是只要涉及到原住民族土地權益的修法我在這裡要要求必須依照原基法第21條要做到什麼呢事前然後自由然後知情的諮商同意權"},{"start":161.021,"end":163.008,"text":"我想部長您同意嗎"},{"start":164.144,"end":192.319,"text":"我基本上同意委員的看法但是有一個實務上的問題如果所有的施工都要相關的原住民的部落的諮商參與如果原住民自己拉水管或做一些小型的建設的時候也要經過這樣的諮商會造成部落之間本身就會卡住啦所以我們覺得說用這種方式因為在原住民基本法已經有規範了那在生理法如果用這樣強度去規範的話反而會影響到部落未來的一個興建"},{"start":194.386,"end":215.873,"text":"部長 您的回答我可以理解 請一下署長署長 要尊重原基法 這是法律位階我們不要談這麼多枝枝節節的小細節而這些枝枝節節的小細節 園民會會跟部落來商量"},{"start":216.912,"end":232.617,"text":"那如果做那麼大的事情然後你說因為我做這麼大的事情會影響到原住民你們自己內部的一些問題的話這個我們定原住民族的基本法就沒有意義了"},{"start":233.357,"end":248.396,"text":"所以部長也好署長也好我要告訴你們的是訂定大的法律的規範或者是要大新土木的同時或者是有一些人必須在原住民的地區從事一些"},{"start":249.577,"end":272.944,"text":"利益的時候你必須要遵守原基法21條我只是問您這個應該你們同意吧我覺得同意我再補充一下剛才委員說的如果說在這個同意的之下在原民會也好有一個相關的遊戲規則有一些排除的部分那絕對可行請問原民會的代表我們談的話你都同意吧"},{"start":275.162,"end":299.239,"text":"所以未來不管是哪一個部門不管是我們的內政部也好不管是我們的農業部也好當他要訂這些東西的時候只要是在原住民族的傳統領域就必須要依規範雲基法21條你要堅守住好嗎謝謝另外我看到了另一個問題也就是我們土地管理制度硬生生就有兩套差別的待遇"},{"start":300.442,"end":315.41,"text":"這次的修法就是國有或公有林地只要在民國82年前已經使用然後他願意繳補償金就可以禁於出租但是看一下元寶地真化邊的使用"},{"start":316.485,"end":339.599,"text":"原保地真化編的使用所在77年2月1號前他有實際使用才能夠申請請問我們都是中華民國的國民為什麼國有零出租可以放寬年限到82年而真化編的申請認定我們只能卡在77年這不是赤裸裸的差別待遇嗎 部長"},{"start":340.967,"end":361.711,"text":"我想剛才講的那是委員的修正版本是82721的部分然後我們現在是根據58527的部分然後頂多把這個航照圖放寬到65到71年的部分所以公有或國有地只要在民國82年前使用就可以他願意繳補償金就可以進行出租"},{"start":362.113,"end":389.593,"text":"这是委员提的版本您同意吗我们是建议不排审好 谢谢我在这边不管怎么样我要再次宣誓如果我们的政府两套标准原住民族族人绝对起身抗议好 今天我要要求农业部跟人民会请你们两周之内提出书面报告第一个国有林当中到底有多少面积是属于原住民传统领域"},{"start":390.243,"end":415.15,"text":"請把這個資料給我第二放寬禁於出租的年限會影響多少人多少筆土地其中多少是位於傳統領域的第三個各修法的版本對原住民族跟傳統領域權利的衝擊跟配套你們必須要有一些評估跟一些書面報告第四評估之後這些對於原民權利的衝擊影響你們有沒有規劃補償賠償原民的方案"},{"start":420.451,"end":440.525,"text":"這四個我希望你們在兩週之內提出書面報告也方便你們整理不然的話未來在這個地方還會有非常多的委員提案然後你們永遠也不可能說委員的提案你們不提審但是你們卻又拿不出一些說明的道理跟理由"},{"start":441.125,"end":456.181,"text":"好 謝謝喔我最後要講的是我們希望我們的政府不要嘴巴講轉型正義實際上每一次要做任何一個政策的修改改變的時候都把我們的原住民的族人排除在外我認為如果今天賴總統說"},{"start":458.323,"end":474.625,"text":"他要所謂的公地放領我們如果要修這個法的話那麼真正就把一些土地還給我們原住民的族人我請助理再放一下最後圖片你們也好"},{"start":477.482,"end":481.489,"text":"國有地也好 它跟我們的傳統領域98%是重疊的希望你們記得這個圖表 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}