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謝謝七二變遷署署長蔡玲儀 謝謝大氣環境司司長黃偉明 謝謝水質保護司司長王玉斌 謝謝監測資訊司司長張順欽 謝謝縱委公約司副司長溫修輝"},{"start":1844.674,"end":1868.222,"text":"環境保護師副署長呂雅文資源循環署副署長林建山環境管理署副署長林左翔還有化學物質管理署副署長林長平謝謝國家環境研究院主任周國鼎謝謝會計處專門委員莊惠如"},{"start":1872.586,"end":1893.623,"text":"還有經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新謝謝民運署副署長彭淑梅謝謝商業發展署署長蔡群儀標準檢驗局檢驗計政鄭乃源還有國民事業管理師科長林漢龍"},{"start":1895.418,"end":1914.833,"text":"好 謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司專業總工程師溫環正好 謝謝台灣總股肯有限公司處長張華瑜謝謝外交部北美司副社長焦國祐謝謝條約法律師科長張家銘"},{"start":1919.755,"end":1945.311,"text":"好謝謝還有我們勞動部職業安全衛生署現在是副署長馬上就要變署長了我們林玉堂好恭喜教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶好謝謝還有我們國民及學情教育署的專門委員薛承佑謝謝好接下來請環境部彭部長就本日議程並案報告請"},{"start":1954.451,"end":1981.164,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場的媒體朋友好那我來進行兩個報告的專案報告委員報告可不可以有總共十分鐘因為有兩個可以嗎?好那第一個是美國總統川普在今年1月20號就任典禮的時候隨即簽署行政命令退出巴黎氣候協定那預計這個協定是在明年的1月27號就是2026年1月27號生效那他的目前來說的話因為在去年年底的時候"},{"start":1981.684,"end":1995.946,"text":"拜登總統曾經制定了美國NDC 3.0依照目前的這個情況還是具有他的一個效力不過未來他退出之後可能會弱化他的執行而且不予之落實第二個國際上其實目前對NDC 3.0"},{"start":1997.148,"end":2026.4,"text":"也就是說這個減碳目標要到2035年其實目前來說的話還是具有高度的共識目前有19個國家已經繳交了目前沒有一個國家宣布放棄或是退出那另外一個最重要的是美國的確在最近也在修改相關的法令放寬化石燃料或是空污等等的一個限制那台灣來說的話當然如果按照全球美國的趨勢來看的話的確會受到一些減量進程的影響所以可能會未來在低碳技術"},{"start":2027.02,"end":2043.6,"text":"或是相關的減碳的這個企圖性會受到一些影響不過呢因為我們台灣在半導體還有綠能的零組件的供應鏈或許可以來填補這個市場的需求另外一個呢這個也是我們台灣未來面對轉型可以說是一個很好的一個時機因為可能會放慢下來"},{"start":2044.161,"end":2060.779,"text":"我們原先可能比較落後的進度就可以稍微追上來最重要的是說我們是國家國際社會的一員我們也是氣候受災的國家我們趕快走也可以找到我們相近理念的國家一起來努力那目前呢我們針對美國關稅政策最近鄰推動的影響"},{"start":2061.36,"end":2089.14,"text":"大概有兩個部分全球的部分第一個供應鏈受阻當然綠能設備的成本預期未來會增加第二個呢全球綠能的投資的信心還有他減碳的企圖也會顯著的一個受挫第三個呢就是化石燃料可能因為他的價格會開始降低會有他的競爭性這個呢都是不確定的一個影響那但是呢其實全世界到目前為止沒有一個國家做出一個淨零調整的相關的策略"},{"start":2089.54,"end":2106.908,"text":"所以我們對未來還是有信心第一個我們台灣面對的對策上我們進行的目標我們1月23號由戴清德總統公布之後我們的目標不變但是我們會協助企業來進行減碳成本的降低朝向低碳供應鏈能夠盡量讓這個產業輔導我們會進行一些協助降低它的衝擊第二個在這段時間在轉換的過程當中我們要"},{"start":2114.392,"end":2129.137,"text":"趕快推動綠色跟數位雙軸轉型來提高產業的競爭力第三個呢是我們兩個方案就是育領人才的培訓大規模的培訓第二個呢是我們有百億的綠色成長的基金來協助年輕人協助新創公司可以來做綠色的發展"},{"start":2130.157,"end":2154.196,"text":"所以我們希望把化為基為轉基成為台灣成長的新助力那第一個策略一呢是我們會強化氣候政策跟碳治理的主導力我們還會是會遵從大院前幾年公布的氣候變遷因應法我們會積極落實來推動特別是我們有20項的旗艦計畫正在進行未來也需要經費也希望立法院可以協助第二個呢碳定價的制度我們會持續的來進行預計呢現在是已經開始起步了明年5月31號"},{"start":2159.52,"end":2168.927,"text":"要收費收到正式的錢那預計我們同步也會展開跟國際社會同步的就是總量管制的排放教育預計2026年底我們希望來先行測試希望在2027年啟動這個都是幫助產業遇到這種碳關稅的壓力之下提早的一個佈局"},{"start":2178.854,"end":2201.114,"text":"那當然啦最重要的是說因為有些東南亞的國家他進口進來他沒有實施碳稅或碳費的確會對我們台灣本地的產業不公所以我們目前呢也在積極的在研議台版的CBAN就碳邊際的調整機制希望呢我們的產業在國內本地不要遭受到不公平的競爭另外一個呢我們會主動的協助企業提出自願減量的計畫"},{"start":2202.395,"end":2225.008,"text":"目前預計是在6月30號每一個企業我們列管的280幾家企業300多家企業都要提出來他這樣的話他可以得到明年碳費的這個減量的一個幅度那另外一個CBAN要怎麼做其實目前呢歐盟的CBAN如期的在2026年會上路並沒有延緩一年但是他是主要是在2027年2月可以購買"},{"start":2227.169,"end":2245.996,"text":"這個購買的憑證時間是延到2027年2月這個就有一點像是我們的碳費是明年再收繳稅一樣的概念差了一年的時間他還是從明年1月1號開始來做這個事情目前台北的CBAN我們正針對申報的對象產品計算方式跟申報的方式在做研議當中我們已經召開了專家諮詢會議未來就會跟一些產業界我們未來首先的就是針對鋼鐵水泥這是第一批"},{"start":2254.479,"end":2278.952,"text":"這種所謂的碳排放強度來進行試申報來做這個事情所以這個是我們已經在啟動這個演繹了那未來呢第二個呢我們要提供我們的政策工具的應用跟執行力這個就是打底的工作大概有五個面向第一個我們會協助碳盤查業績揭露的供應鏈減碳這個最好有一個很大的平台減輕企業的負擔第二個呢要完備產品碳足跡的資料因為未來呢"},{"start":2279.372,"end":2290.878,"text":"等到這個關稅或是最近過的話這個國際的碳足跡應該的要求會非常的熱烈第三個呢我們國內會強化這個綠色採購目前呢我們過去大概只有3%是屬於綠色採購未來呢我們希望2030年能夠成長到10%這個大概就是1600億台幣的採購這個是政府的採購未來呢這個其實也包括民間的主動的採購會結合在一起"},{"start":2302.845,"end":2315.439,"text":"第四個呢就是百育的綠色成長基金提供企業轉型到綠色產業的資金的一個協助第五個呢就擴大綠領人才的培訓量能我們過去呢其實公布的綠領人才48小時的課而且相對的是比較"},{"start":2319.383,"end":2341.719,"text":"經濟划算之後受到很大的關注一下就是秒殺我們目前跟28個大學分為北中南四個東四個區在進行協助預計我們會這個會再擴大還會提出一些增能的課程那第三個是推動產業轉型跟跨部會的協助平台我們會針對重點的高碳產業協助他們導入一些新的科技像碳補作電氣化作替代燃料"},{"start":2342.199,"end":2365.84,"text":"或是說跟國科會合作發展製程、低碳設備或數位轉型等等那另外我們本來就有跟經濟部、經管會、國科會就有一個平台我們會加速讓這個產業能夠前面的先走能夠帶動小的產業我們成立一個綠色產業轉型的聯合平台另外一個會跟經管會合作在綠色金融、綠色信貸跟債券方面能夠再強化"},{"start":2366.801,"end":2396.164,"text":"那另外一個最重要的第四個就是國際參與跟政策對接目前我們會積極找到跟我們相關的產業能夠進行氣候治理的對接包含政策的協調或是相互的認證的機制第二個我們還是會積極希望台灣要加入相關的國際組織提供我們政策的透明度跟國際的參與的信任度第三個就是希望結合我們的友邦擴大我國企業出口市場跟商機特別是綠色能源廢棄物處理等等"},{"start":2396.664,"end":2413.739,"text":"那另外一個呢跟各位大院報告其實這個是新的資料我們正式的版本應該會在6月會公佈不過目前我們算出來跟各個部會協調出來我們2023年的減量叫2005年的幅度是4.64%那之前呢各位可能看到的數據是2022年2022年是大概是1.8%"},{"start":2416.681,"end":2435.914,"text":"所以我們2023年已經有顯著的減碳有顯著的一個成效目前我們預測大概在2024 2025大概有5到6然後2025可能會到8到9左右那當然這個要看未來我們GDP的發展我們會努力的希望這個數字能夠更好一些但是這個我們的確是邁向這個減碳的一個幅度"},{"start":2438.075,"end":2458.95,"text":"最後呢我們跟大家報告2050淨零碳排還是國際上主要的推動目標雖然遇到這個關稅的挑戰但是呢其實目前全世界沒有一個國家有顯著的轉彎或是一個退縮那我國呢還是會積極的我們希望在今年年底COP30前在巴西舉辦之前我們提出我們的國家的NDC3.0"},{"start":2461.092,"end":2489.571,"text":"總統在1月23在國家氣候變遷對策委員會提出的是NDC3.0Beta版現在我們正跟進行跨部會的溝通還有社會的溝通工作希望社會能夠給我們更多的意見能夠讓轉型更能成功更為具體那另外一個是針對美國關稅的國際新局我們會持續的來研議能夠希望打造供應鏈讓經濟安全跟永續成長的雙重目標這是我第一份報告那請幫我切到第二份的報告那第二份報告"},{"start":2490.531,"end":2517.84,"text":"跟各位報告的是所謂的很多委員關心的國內的校園賣場工作場域的室內空氣污染針對室內空氣污染物的管理跟防治的進進作為目前其實我國的這個室內空氣品質的管理其實是全世界僅次於韓國第二個發布的是在這已經經歷了14年的一個時間那我們分為兩批第一批是103年公告的大型場所"},{"start":2518.26,"end":2546.301,"text":"第二批呢是106年公布的那110年呢我們又推動了這個自內空氣品質的自主的管理的標章目前呢第一批大概有436家的企業這包含了大專院校或是重要的公共的一個場所那第二批呢是增加了例如說博物館電影院視聽場所健身房等等的總共有1200家左右所以整個加起來大概是1600家是目前第一批跟第二批"},{"start":2546.721,"end":2575.742,"text":"要符合室內空品列管的一個單位那這個裡面呢就會有一些有意思的因為這個裡面呢有的是每一年要列管有的是兩年要列管那管理一次呢就要找專業的這個檢測機構去量那這個成本來說的話大概一次大概要兩三萬塊那另外一個呢是他的這個場域也要設定專責的人員所以其實他對於一些這種所謂的幼兒園等等的相對的我們就遭遇到他們反映了人力不足或是定檢成本高昂的一個問題"},{"start":2576.502,"end":2593.162,"text":"所以目前來說的話我們現在過去在推動了一個要自主管理的標章的一個推動針對大專院校幼兒園或商場他們主動來做不過也很誠實的跟各位報告他的比例相對的還是比較低那未來我們要怎麼做呢第一個我們還是要加強的一個宣導"},{"start":2593.743,"end":2615.107,"text":"我們會跟教育部衛福部積極的合作從源頭管制例如說它的使用的建築的材料要濾建材第二個換氣通風第三個室內可以透過空氣清淨機或是植物的方式來做淨化這個如果前途可以減量的好就可以管制會有更大的成效那針對那個要花費很多錢的部分其實有一個方法"},{"start":2615.447,"end":2633.672,"text":"就是利用連續自動的監測的儀器目前有些連續自動監測的這個品質不好所以這個未來有待於我們持續的跟產業界一起發展連續自動監測而且智慧化例如說配合通風像現在我們的這個我們這個場域大概是七百八九百多的pp"},{"start":2634.352,"end":2649.891,"text":"PPM如果待會進行到1000多的話可能這個通風會增強這個就是一個新的方式所以類似這樣的方式我們會逐步的增加對公共區域跟兒少的校園硬性跟柔性的一個管理我們希望源頭廣至跟原來的這個方式雙軌並行"},{"start":2651.272,"end":2668.427,"text":"那最重要的是要重視這個兒少因為兒少他的敏感族群他如果遇到一個影響影響會比我們成人大很多我們會積極的推廣自主的標章的管理那未來我們要怎麼做呢第一個我們目前在過去這幾個月我們也找了各界從環保團體"},{"start":2670.549,"end":2686.702,"text":"或是各界從許願池開始策略平台或是公民咖啡館已經擬定了空氣品質政策白皮書那預計希望我們在4月底可以趕快對外公布那這個事實上是為了我們環境部結合大家可以發展的方向"},{"start":2687.162,"end":2703.562,"text":"那這裡面有一個很重要的作為就是呼應我們未來第三期的空氣污染防治策略我們希望空氣品質可以降得更好那這裡面當然也包含了室內空氣品質的策略也在裡面那未來我們會積極盤點修正檢討的目前的空氣污染防治法"},{"start":2704.422,"end":2727.973,"text":"空污法的修法也在我們未來要擬定的策略之一包含了固定污染源、移動污染源等等相關的我們希望在下個會期如果我們有順利快的話希望下個會期能夠送到大院能夠來進行一個修正因為上次修正到現在為止已經有一段時間了我們希望配合我們台灣的發展能夠再進行修正空污法的修正以上所有報告 謝謝"},{"start":2735.416,"end":2758.511,"text":"好謝謝部長報告那有關本市會議各項說明資料進列錄記錄刊登公報現在開始尋答做一下宣告第一本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有順便質詢請於上月前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理歷史提案10點半截止"},{"start":2759.946,"end":2764.775,"text":"截止收案 現在請登記第一位委員是陳昭志從委員來做詢問的謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長"},{"start":2776.074,"end":2802.538,"text":"陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布"},{"start":2802.978,"end":2819.8,"text":"他第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有"},{"start":2820.741,"end":2834.568,"text":"這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業"},{"start":2836.229,"end":2863.945,"text":"那台灣企業本來他就要面對這個關稅這個碳費跟那個綠能轉型的這個內部成本那現在又要面對可能的這個出口美國是被課以這個額外的關稅他等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點double punishment的這個概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了"},{"start":2864.965,"end":2889.82,"text":"你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長式的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是"},{"start":2890.74,"end":2918.557,"text":"真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策"},{"start":2919.897,"end":2939.595,"text":"那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯"},{"start":2940.836,"end":2964.674,"text":"但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是你會如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用"},{"start":2966.055,"end":2977.973,"text":"但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎"},{"start":2979.165,"end":3005.98,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊源高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴陣以待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業"},{"start":3007.441,"end":3033.86,"text":"我再提醒你因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的"},{"start":3034.921,"end":3055.4,"text":"他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情"},{"start":3056.401,"end":3072.972,"text":"不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則"},{"start":3074.333,"end":3100.755,"text":"因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個"},{"start":3102.096,"end":3130.451,"text":"部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎 您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的智慧圍籬會做得更好"},{"start":3131.411,"end":3136.995,"text":"為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下"},{"start":3162.931,"end":3188.48,"text":"他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑幕就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片"},{"start":3201.039,"end":3226.465,"text":"部長我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片因為才12秒,他轉進來然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場"},{"start":3228.473,"end":3243.108,"text":"這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊"},{"start":3244.349,"end":3263.854,"text":"去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜式還是發生了報告委員這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內"},{"start":3266.055,"end":3294.714,"text":"現內無法這個完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來呢會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方現在合法的業者部長這個就是說其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分"},{"start":3295.194,"end":3299.259,"text":"他們互相勾結然後繞一圈就出場再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資場販賣連單繞場"},{"start":3314.376,"end":3334.037,"text":"偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理其中電子連單的措施及工作你是不是可以做到解決解除業者規避追蹤器偽造不實連單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題"},{"start":3335.739,"end":3359.153,"text":"這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談的差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公佈我們有一套做法因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有1000萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方"},{"start":3359.724,"end":3377.413,"text":"不只爛到他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你以後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊"},{"start":3379.313,"end":3401.362,"text":"這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3409.29,"end":3412.673,"text":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長林委員好"},{"start":3431.847,"end":3459.484,"text":"部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下 部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版"},{"start":3461.087,"end":3484.277,"text":"他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的"},{"start":3484.775,"end":3512.601,"text":"部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內"},{"start":3514.119,"end":3527.952,"text":"自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話"},{"start":3531.334,"end":3553.18,"text":"應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套"},{"start":3554.687,"end":3571.4,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來"},{"start":3571.98,"end":3598.648,"text":"但是在整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年 2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為"},{"start":3599.168,"end":3623.689,"text":"你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議啦除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款"},{"start":3624.898,"end":3654.658,"text":"因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好"},{"start":3655.058,"end":3680.655,"text":"就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個"},{"start":3681.764,"end":3705.161,"text":"連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的共識所以我們的鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整"},{"start":3706.803,"end":3726.945,"text":"是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機"},{"start":3728.366,"end":3752.082,"text":"還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央"},{"start":3754.203,"end":3770.428,"text":"預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正"},{"start":3770.928,"end":3791.648,"text":"好 這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹"},{"start":3792.23,"end":3821.913,"text":"可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個"},{"start":3822.877,"end":3849.476,"text":"污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染"},{"start":3850.177,"end":3860.534,"text":"請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部"},{"start":3861.36,"end":3887.556,"text":"我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動"},{"start":3888.689,"end":3915.907,"text":"在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中生他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年對你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情"},{"start":3916.369,"end":3938.134,"text":"最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為"},{"start":3940.114,"end":3963.914,"text":"最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪"},{"start":3964.966,"end":3987.982,"text":"所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要透過"},{"start":3988.967,"end":4016.21,"text":"報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施"},{"start":4016.69,"end":4045.375,"text":"因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為"},{"start":4046.135,"end":4075.097,"text":"外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃"},{"start":4076.783,"end":4094.941,"text":"好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強監測"},{"start":4096.882,"end":4122.88,"text":"稽查主動協助學校通報啊協助學校而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回"},{"start":4124.794,"end":4146.13,"text":"這個委員這個部分我們是有列管啦但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年"},{"start":4147.47,"end":4169.175,"text":"2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區"},{"start":4170.99,"end":4189.855,"text":"建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面 活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問"},{"start":4206.994,"end":4207.734,"text":"這邊是蠻多人關注的您最近對外的一些發言所以"},{"start":4229.807,"end":4255.59,"text":"今天我也趕快熟讀一下您的發言所以本席第一個想問的問題是說您在前幾天出席國家安全防衛任性委員會出來之後呢您認為說許多委員都有達到一樣的共識對於台灣如果應對能源封鎖的話針對國安的風險在考量國安應該要保留核能這是您說的嗎"},{"start":4256.514,"end":4277.174,"text":"包委員那個媒體報導有錯第一個這個全方位任性還沒有開我是說這個國家安全不是我們氣候變遷這個所阻擋的這個應該從那個委員會可以去做討論所以其實我當天說得很清楚我也跟我同仁確認過我是這樣講的嗎其實他裡面可能是他把一些刪掉了"},{"start":4277.574,"end":4288.603,"text":"因為這個文章中提到說現場有企業對您提問說台海若發生封鎖恐嚴重影響國安所以您表示說對進口天然氣的依賴確實涉及國安因此在討論相關議題的時候你說在你曾經參加過這樣子的委員會"},{"start":4298.832,"end":4324.786,"text":"沒有沒有不是這樣講的我是說其實各種的能源包含很多的國家在推動能源政策的時候其實核能他們也是國安的一個選項之一那這個部分呢我們可以未來也可以來討論這個事情那這個討論的平台不在我們氣候變遷對策委員會是在這個全方位任性從國家安全的角度因為我們不是國家安全的單位啊所以我們其實那天我昨天是昨天我昨天他問我我這樣打的但是我很遺憾媒體是這樣寫的"},{"start":4325.626,"end":4353.841,"text":"所以您是以什麼身份來聊這些您認為這個議題會在國安當中討論他們請我去做Keynote Speaker我沒有做國安的討論我是說其實在國際上的確有這樣的討論但是其實是有些國家的案例台灣還並沒有這樣的討論那您認為那您會認為因為你是環境部嘛所以您認為核能是否會對台灣的淨零碳排等等我們需要達到的這些國際任務會有幫助呢"},{"start":4354.481,"end":4377.397,"text":"如果說低碳能源的話當然是有幫助不過報告委員因為當時我們訂這個減碳目標的時候核能我也看到裡面那這問題是說要法定通過還要這個安全檢查然後還有地層斷層的這個處理然後甚至呢最後還有經費核廢料等等其實這個算起來費用很高也要花很久的時間所以其實最後淨離的目標就沒有辦法"},{"start":4377.657,"end":4395.571,"text":"您專業環境部長的意見您是認為核能的確是對淨零碳排有幫助但是背後還有很多事情需要處理剛剛您的意思是這樣子對 要很多錢還要花很多的時間不是說明天就可以繼續用了所以這個基本上這個是我們沒有辦法掌控的所以那時候我們推淨零的時候沒有把它放進去"},{"start":4395.811,"end":4419.176,"text":"好那再來呢因為您當天除了稍微聊到國安以外您說呢這個中央沒有非核家園的信仰也沒有也不是所謂行政團隊的神主牌所以你們說這個政府的態度是很開放的請問您講的這個中央代表的是什麼中央因為現在中央政府的中央"},{"start":4419.896,"end":4439.884,"text":"跟民進黨黨主席的中央是同一個中央您這個提到的這個是指我們行政團隊因為委員在大院的時候包含卓院長或是總統在氣候變遷對策委員會也曾經多說過非二加元不是神主牌之類的話所以其實我是就是引述而已並沒有說這個是我們政策上有很大的轉彎並沒有轉彎"},{"start":4441.144,"end":4454.671,"text":"但因為我們現在總統同時也是民進黨的黨主席嘛所以你的意思是說行政團隊的這個中央團隊認為非核家園已經不再是神主牌所以代表說你們也有可能會轉彎沒有就是說我們很開放的來討論這個事情開放的來討論對對對"},{"start":4459.454,"end":4468.341,"text":"那另外您在這個訪談您是當Keynote Speaker嘛所以您也有提到說SMR的這個問題所以因為我們現在剛好面臨國人非常關心的90天關稅談判而賴總統也有提到說能源是我們談判的籌碼之一請問這個SMR是不是你們內部也開始有在討論是不是關稅談判的籌碼之一呢"},{"start":4484.893,"end":4501.655,"text":"包括因為能源或是核能或是核廢料真的不是我們環境部主管的單位可能是經濟部但是您聊蠻多的但是因為我們是關心淨零所以我們的確是很認真的去做瞭解那以現在全世界SMR目前最快最快可以商轉可能是2030年"},{"start":4503.497,"end":4526.055,"text":"這個我的意思是說在談判的籌碼能源SMR列入談判的籌碼跟它什麼時候開始相轉我想這是兩回事吧那既然您參加的這些委員會可能也同時都涵蓋有經濟部的部長也涵蓋有和安會等等你們全部都會一起參加這些會議嘛所以我也想知道說大家是不是都跟您有一樣的想法因為您對於SMR也蠻多看法的"},{"start":4529.017,"end":4554.922,"text":"的確它的確是一個新的這個新的技術但是也跟委員報告他蠻貴的這個其實目前最新的一個美國的new scale的2030年完工的大概一個機組462M大概就要花到105億美元這個其實很貴還不如蓋一個新的所以基本上不管是SMR或是一種核能的重啟或研議其實第一個他費用第二個是說他跟社會的溝通的成本還有各種核廢料其實都"},{"start":4555.662,"end":4572.643,"text":"說真的還蠻困難的可是因為全民都蠻關切這個90天的貿易關稅談判嘛所以既然能源一定會是談判其中的一個選項之一所以大家也就會想要知道說SMR是不是就籌碼之一嘛目前我自己我沒有參與那個討論這個SMR的會議"},{"start":4575.126,"end":4595.781,"text":"我想因為目前全世界還沒有SMR開始商轉所以應該不會列入這樣那因為剛剛你有提到說這些核能相關的議題其實還需要很多的社會凝聚共識也要非常多的溝通所以既然能源是其中一個談判籌碼之一的話我也希望您知道談判之後呢也可以盡快的展開這些溝通好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":4598.563,"end":4624.989,"text":"對 因為聽起來的話我們也很擔心這個SMR它列入溝通那它也會對我們國家的能源政策造成一個蠻重大的衝擊嘛好 謝謝好 那下一個想問一下這個是我們今年1月底太陽能光電環屏終於納入環屏的標準那這些內容就包括以下我劃線的這也是您認同的嘛濕地 山坡地 動物保護區等等潮間帶你覺得這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":4628.223,"end":4648.542,"text":"有沒有遺漏的報告委員其實環評有兩個目的世界主管機關一個是例如說經濟部像能源署就是主管機關之一他們有他們的生態檢核的機制那我們是超過一定的量大就要送到我們這邊環評所以基本上目前是我們有參考其他國家和日本的進行方式那這是我去年執行的內容我們也稍微播放一下"},{"start":4651.021,"end":4665.987,"text":"因為你剛提到量我們等一下也會來討論量放在屋頂上可以費率比較高嘛所以就很多人其實他覺得餘溫結果他故意去架了一個屋頂然後再放到屋頂上這個我想你們都已經知道了啦好計算起來呢這些"},{"start":4666.627,"end":4692.167,"text":"不需要做環射檢核的屋頂加起來已經1117公頃好我們來對比之前你說需要環評有一個高爾夫球場曾經接受過很嚴重的環評很詳細的環評才52公頃結果剛剛大家都說這個屋頂上有多好我們獎勵他們結果1117公頃現在都沒有人在管他們這個是很違背一般人民的認知現在許多人是假養殖在增重店"},{"start":4694.881,"end":4697.403,"text":"好 剛剛你有講到量嘛很明顯的這些屋頂上的量是很大的喔全部統計起來是非常大的那這邊呢 是許多多人民也有跟我們反映啦等一下我會給你看一個陳情我們先看 你在規定"},{"start":4718.099,"end":4739.196,"text":"風力發電你在規定水力發電你在規定核能潮汐地熱後面從來就沒有一個單書沒有這種括號的東西出現可是呢針對這個其實國人是最在意的許許多多弊案而且利益牽扯最複雜的光點你後面有這一大段的括號單書寫不含設置於屋頂上或屬其他開發行為附屬"},{"start":4744.54,"end":4766.553,"text":"等等事業主管機關確認者就是你剛提到的經濟部為什麼為什麼第一個是屋頂上本來就是沒有限制甚至說餘溫上面這個餘電共生那個就是不用去做特別的環評那個是目的事業主管機關他經過這個生態檢核過後其實他有他的標準那目前是不用經過環評"},{"start":4767.774,"end":4782.985,"text":"好但這個也是我們許多啦許多人 那人民啊他們已經不堪其擾這個社區進去到處就是光電板像狗皮膏藥一樣好在這邊第六點你看我曾經質詢過蘇清璇召委也帶著環境部一起去看現在屏東是什麼樣子"},{"start":4789.069,"end":4814.526,"text":"那當然你剛剛說屬於經濟部的核可就不用環評結果呢我們都發現他們是砍樹來放光電板那你還把這些大家最在意的你知道很多餘溫因為放了光電板已經變成一灘臭水變成這樣子這些也是你走訪中南部所看到的也是我們中南部現在鄉親很在意的啊"},{"start":4815.952,"end":4820.569,"text":"結果你在修改的時候還特別列了一個其他能源政策都沒有的單數"},{"start":4822.096,"end":4848.05,"text":"包委員 這個其實是第一個是造林一個是平地 一個是山坡地例如說像蘇委員說的就是山坡地它是15公頃以上或是20M就要還平所以基本上有一定的單數因為那個是很早期弄的的確那時候沒有任何的限制那現在是有了 而且加嚴了好 那這邊我們看因為你第一片這個slide你就說提到量你覺得這個光電板的量但是你看這邊"},{"start":4849.511,"end":4855.577,"text":"你既然他已經是但書了以外然後他卻是近幾年來越來越多從108年到112年屋頂上比地面型還要多超過現在併網的一半結果你變相還加一個但書你覺得113年 114年 115年你會怎麼預期他屋頂型會不會越來越多"},{"start":4870.402,"end":4895.622,"text":"屋頂型基本上是應該是被鼓勵的因為它不是說從現有的農地或是說各種的新開發的林地去做改變屋頂型是基本上是被鼓勵的而且我們的獎勵處置裡面被鼓勵但是也需要受到環境部的規範嗎基本上目前是不用做因為屋頂型的這個量其實它不會太大而且是個別個別小的剛剛已經跟你說它是併網一半好這邊啊"},{"start":4897.082,"end":4917.399,"text":"你們在做這個預告的時候其實你們有附上一個email你有提到說60日內請提供建議等等那為什麼我會詢問你這件事就是因為我們有收到一位中南部阿貝的陳情他的意思是說他已經受不了了他走進他的社區到處就是而且還蓋在水溝上根本沒有什麼環境部的管制嘛"},{"start":4917.879,"end":4939.245,"text":"那這是去年8月他把這整封信貼給我們他講到說很多屋頂上的光點他反映給你們知道是假屋頂型只是因為設置的條件比較寬鬆所以故意蓋一個屋頂就明明他那邊其實不需要屋頂他為了做屋頂型又去硬扯一個鐵皮屋蓋了一個屋頂那反而很妨害下面的生態"},{"start":4940.145,"end":4961.95,"text":"但因為他是不需要你們的檢核而且費率還比地面型還要高所以就變成一個變相的發財之道難怪申請量暴增結果你們公告的草案竟然直接去免去屋頂型的環評成為大漏洞所以請將以上的建議納入並且考慮修正結果你知道嗎這封信已讀不回"},{"start":4962.95,"end":4976.696,"text":"所以我也搞不太清楚你們叫大家寄信到你們這個可能是林彥祺的信箱然後說要參考大家的修正意見那已讀不回所以你們到底有沒有納入"},{"start":4977.444,"end":5001.469,"text":"包委員這個我們會再跟能源署再來做協調因為這個部分屋頂型的光電是主要是他們有他們的一個機制生態檢核的機制然後是由這個能源署在主管的所以我們會再來瞭解好不好這個案例這個幾個案例這是未來的政策請問你們在這段時間是不是也陸續收到許多意見有沒有你們有回覆嗎還是全部都沒有回覆"},{"start":5001.929,"end":5020.992,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您提到的那個就是公開徵詢意見是在我們預告期間收集的各界意見那我們收集的意見以後其實也有開公聽演商會然後也會跟各個相關的行政機關做研究所以也不是說所有收到陳情的意見我們都會在最後修法定案的時候去採納因為這可能要綜合很多的意見"},{"start":5022.073,"end":5043.73,"text":"你們不一定要採納但是你們可能也要回覆一下人家是好本來阿貝是希望你們可以他希望帶你們去看他的社區或是拍一些照片給你們但就全部沒有回覆結果最後就直接上路了是這個我們在會後我們再了解一下因為有很多意見其實我們有最後有做一個回應的表然後可能在這一個"},{"start":5044.851,"end":5054.434,"text":"這個案例我們去了解一下那個陳情仁的意見我們是不是有收到好那之後再跟你們繼續追蹤這個屋頂型的好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長來請部長"},{"start":5076.084,"end":5088.941,"text":"王委員好部長好部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施環評的這個29條"},{"start":5092.104,"end":5096.848,"text":"來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些呢都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是"},{"start":5116.471,"end":5135.632,"text":"像小二甲這樣子化整圍嶺的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的"},{"start":5136.215,"end":5158.272,"text":"所以小二甲的情況不會再出現 不會不會原地的都可以被管制 國保委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展所以表示說這個是有效的那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈"},{"start":5161.474,"end":5169.759,"text":"就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風林20餘年因為要毀林種電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈"},{"start":5176.365,"end":5193.99,"text":"那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的"},{"start":5194.79,"end":5212.027,"text":"因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈"},{"start":5217.472,"end":5235.909,"text":"包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商啊那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法"},{"start":5236.75,"end":5254.576,"text":"本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案"},{"start":5257.057,"end":5275.208,"text":"而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎"},{"start":5287.613,"end":5294.658,"text":"對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些"},{"start":5312.011,"end":5335.195,"text":"你要種個一二十年他對整個環境他所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這一些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這一次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生"},{"start":5339.076,"end":5347.873,"text":"我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場"},{"start":5351.823,"end":5372.959,"text":"到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎"},{"start":5374.974,"end":5390.142,"text":"這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們有辦法做的"},{"start":5390.302,"end":5393.544,"text":"但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要"},{"start":5406.994,"end":5421.388,"text":"你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面"},{"start":5423.55,"end":5444.703,"text":"看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺啦就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋"},{"start":5447.304,"end":5473.338,"text":"好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制"},{"start":5473.738,"end":5490.917,"text":"所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中"},{"start":5491.437,"end":5518.151,"text":"好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席 包括委員通通都沒有發現或者去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧"},{"start":5519.54,"end":5523.924,"text":"我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有那麼多風險台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":5542.361,"end":5571.674,"text":"在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上"},{"start":5572.134,"end":5589.737,"text":"所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法"},{"start":5590.297,"end":5618.417,"text":"並沒有像這個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待"},{"start":5619.978,"end":5643.075,"text":"那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空瓶的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500"},{"start":5646.698,"end":5668.19,"text":"就是在補助這些學校今天是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這一個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這一個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主"},{"start":5668.61,"end":5688.5,"text":"的管理標章 這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵錢也給得太少了 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個"},{"start":5698.76,"end":5716.794,"text":"這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學"},{"start":5717.475,"end":5743.057,"text":"就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以"},{"start":5747.093,"end":5769.409,"text":"公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論"},{"start":5770.49,"end":5789.933,"text":"那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下"},{"start":5790.353,"end":5805.887,"text":"好啊 因為隨著物價水準 你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少 所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦 這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請盧信義委員來做宣討"},{"start":5820.767,"end":5826.992,"text":"就針對美國關稅的問題,先提出幾個問題請問部長,你知道川普為什麼要退出巴黎氣候協定嗎?"},{"start":5839.591,"end":5854.769,"text":"因為美國在共和黨跟民主黨他們對於這個氣候變遷的看法一直都是不大一樣的那他大概是從美國共和黨傳統的這種所謂的化石燃料派不相信氣候變遷這樣延伸出來的"},{"start":5855.233,"end":5872.468,"text":"那我大概翻了一下資料大概川普的想法就是說可能就即便是你已經投入了這麼多金額他的預期效益沒有達到那也就是說剛剛我們看這個圖表就是說拜登政府他投入了大概1.6兆"},{"start":5875.131,"end":5895.471,"text":"結果呢他的那個目標只有下降0.2%那也就是說當然就川普來講他上任以後他在2017年就提過一次現在再度上任的時候他當然就還要發揮他以前的想法就是說他即便美國付出這麼多對氣候的貢獻其實沒有他們想像中那麼好那就回頭來看我們"},{"start":5896.212,"end":5918.74,"text":"我們的NDC就是說自定貢獻每5年要更換就是說更新那我想知道說2035年我們燃煤大概9%那我們的Gas的燃氣要54%這個部分你的看法是怎麼樣你覺得可以達到嗎這個是目前這個是由能源經濟部門能源署在做規劃的那我們當然對他們是有信心"},{"start":5919.653,"end":5934.483,"text":"OK那我想知道說我們現在的所謂的carbon border也就是說我們的碳邊境這邊這邊你是說大概我們116年2月這個部分會開始做然後我們的台版會出來那我們台版是什麼時候會出現"},{"start":5934.963,"end":5951.856,"text":"我們希望是未來這幾個月因為主要是針對重點的產業那這個也要跟經濟部一起合作那50噸的這個後面的這個這個量是怎麼定出來的這個就是第一個我們要觀察這個歐盟他大概是夏天的時候七八月的時候他應該會把它細節出來"},{"start":5953.217,"end":5970.968,"text":"那你希望能夠擴大他的豁免門檻那你希望到什麼樣的程度基本上至少要讓我們本地的鋼鐵業或是水泥不要受到這個從其他地方進來沒有碳碳碎的碳廢的一個國家的一個衝擊等於說我們必須要公平正義"},{"start":5971.428,"end":5985.217,"text":"這些事情都是比較專業比較新所以我希望在多方面的一些教育上面都可以呈現出來那我剛剛有看到這個報告裡面在第十頁的部分說我們結合大專院校要開放精靈的課程"},{"start":5987.598,"end":6007.996,"text":"那預計可以培養大概3500人次以上那我當然就原住民的立場來說我希望在按照人口比例我們這個至少要有70到100人受到訓練所以這個部分有做規劃嗎好 這個部分我們有跟原住民委員會來談他們也表達高度的意願細節我們是不是主任"},{"start":6008.897,"end":6027.909,"text":"我們已經跟原民會討論過兩次包括這個禮拜一原民會都表達強烈的意願他們會推派一些原住民的代表來參加我們課程我希望這個訓練人才裡面會有至少70名原住民的學生或者是說所謂的這個領域裡面來受到訓練"},{"start":6031.151,"end":6046.268,"text":"我們是希望未來可以有一個原住民的專班啦特別針對原住民的事業特別來做一些訓練這個還要原民會的同意這是美國加徵關稅公總有六項建議大概我來念一下第一項就是說"},{"start":6047.009,"end":6062.457,"text":"申請簡化 變名這些 放寬紓困第二個就是我們產業各類別來做政策第三個就是對美的採購團工種能夠協助擴大對美的採購 降低台美貿易逆差這些 以後有六項建議 你看過了嗎"},{"start":6065.147,"end":6086.063,"text":"我收到了 碳費他們希望能夠延到2027我有收到這個訊息是嗎對OK那剛才我們的幾個委員有提到我們現在台東的那個東海岸的所謂的我們的風力發電那剛才王議員說現在五十幾座 其實不是是27公里裡面它要建33個風力發電那其實"},{"start":6089.486,"end":6107.543,"text":"如果你去過那裡你會發現其實它的陸地其實是非常少的大部分就是海然後陸地一點點然後就開始就是我們居民生活的地方所以其實如果就它風力發電那個基座可能距離不有可能只有不到500公尺的距離所以我在想這個部分以後"},{"start":6108.143,"end":6135.7,"text":"部長 你在做看到環境影響評估的時候其實就對這個部分應該要很大的一個去肯定說它對我們原住民的傳統領域這個部分是不是有很多方面的影響因為我們都希望說有山影嘛中央跟地方影嘛然後我們地區的民眾影可是如果說它的負面確實是高於它未來這個山影的局面的時候你的考量其實是應該是很重要的所以我希望聽到你對這方面的一些見解"},{"start":6136.548,"end":6161.583,"text":"OK好謝謝委員因為風機在2009年開始有一個環皮的限制是250公尺半徑然後後來到2023年大概到500公尺可是之前現在的影響例如說在彰化雲林有一些居民的抱怨都是當時很早時候沒有相關法令定下來的的確產生很大的問題那目前呢也跟委員報告為什麼我要主動說因為其實有最近有很多的這種離岸風"},{"start":6163.004,"end":6180.435,"text":"綠蜂店他來我們部內申請環評其實委員都給他們高度的這個審核的一個標準特別是說提醒他們注意不大能夠過啦所以我就提醒他們如果要來申請那就要更加嚴更做更多的溝通才有辦法過那500公尺是一個基本的門檻"},{"start":6181.255,"end":6205.351,"text":"是所以就其實就以後要設置之前我希望你能夠過去看一下甚至參加泰馬里或者是大武達人這方面的一些部落一些所謂的溝通的一個會議或者說至少是縣政府曾經所辦的這些我希望能夠主動參加不過委員因為他是屬於他準備要籌劃要蓋他連報告都還沒送到我們那邊所以我們也不知道好那我只是"},{"start":6205.891,"end":6235.399,"text":"因為我在這邊要轉達我們在地部落的一些聲音然後剛才有提到我們獅子國中所謂的瀝青廠距離獅子國中只有500公尺不到的一個距離那剛才聽到王一鳴委員講到說有一個什麼什麼新風專案就是可以有排氣的這些系統希望這個工廠可能不太可能說離開這個學校那是不是就學校的一個設置或者是說它一個排湊的這個通風系統能不能也加進來不是只有獨厚我們竹水溪縣的"},{"start":6237,"end":6253.009,"text":"其實我們這個要源頭管理所以他現在我們所掌握的是他的製程裡面的確是讓這個臭氣排出來所以我們希望說因為他但是他一個月只有工作兩天所以我們要等到那個天知道他然後教育他來做改變這個只要他解決後面的問題就解決了"},{"start":6253.049,"end":6274.849,"text":"所以常常有環保單位去監測的時候就測不到就像我之前提到的那個法灣就是距離那個畜牧產業非常近其實我上個上個禮拜有去馬家鄉再做一次鄉鎮座談他們又再次提到我們法灣也就是我們排灣族發源地的這個村莊呢他距離那個養雞養豬場實在是太近了可是我們一"},{"start":6275.089,"end":6301.512,"text":"一而再再而上的去講這個事情可是只要是環保單位去查其實就查不到任何意味可是生活在那邊的人每天晚上或者是來固定時間就會產生這樣子的一個問題然後或者是看到一大片的就是蒼蠅圍在他們的餐桌所以這個部分我是覺得部長你雖然去過了可是我是覺得還是要有個時間表至少讓民眾知道說環境部有在努力政府有在努力讓居民生活能夠安心可以嗎"},{"start":6301.852,"end":6325.768,"text":"好可以這報委員上次看到那個養豬場其實我們也給他們很大的道德勸說你一定要做不做的話我們會加鹽查核所以我們認為是要源頭要管理是最重要的如果源頭專理做得好這個問題就不見了我還是希望環境部有時間表謝謝好謝謝好謝謝陸委員謝謝部長那我們會在這邊做報告我們等"},{"start":6328.264,"end":6341.42,"text":"這個邱正軍委員宣導結束後休息十分鐘好請就緣主席好我們一樣請彭部長"},{"start":6347.688,"end":6367.053,"text":"還是剛剛我看幾個委員都有提到就是陸域風電的問題陸域風電跟光電一樣一直都有很多爭議但是我們民進黨為了邁向2025非核家園的願景大量發展我們光電跟風電現在為了推動2050年達到近年排放的目標"},{"start":6372.082,"end":6380.643,"text":"光電和風電又要增加但是這反而讓台灣的環境永續跟人民的生活品質失衡我們先看一下那個影片"},{"start":6384.682,"end":6413.119,"text":"將那個拜拜那個箱啊插下去才看到快死掉了我都好暈喔我都站不穩喔跟醫生講醫生有沒有說什麼醫生說沒辦法那個政府要那個你有什麼辦法這樣他跟我這樣講我說醫生你看要怎麼辦你可以證明給我嗎他說那那個政府要這個你有辦法嗎這樣他就這樣講我也不清楚因為醫生也沒辦法對醫生說那個政府要那個你"},{"start":6413.979,"end":6414.441,"text":"有辦法嗎 你會贏他嗎"},{"start":6418.713,"end":6443.735,"text":"看到這影片我們的住戶我感覺到他非常的無助那這是彰化方院的居民他就住在風機的附近他說風機帶來的眩影讓他每天都在暈去看醫生也看不好他問醫生怎麼辦剛剛我看到大家看到影片了但是部長他的家就在那邊你要他們怎麼辦我看到這個影片真的覺得蠻不忍的部長的感覺呢"},{"start":6444.82,"end":6471.14,"text":"這的確這個眩影或是低頻的噪音或是那個風切聲的確是讓居民是很不舒服但是委員這個影片我有看過我週末的時候也特別去查其實那個大概就是2009、2010那時候我們國家大概是2000年有一次大波的陸域風險的開發接下來是2009年其實現在的問題就是那時候沒有完整的像現在500公尺的環評所累積下來的那目前的確這個是一個問題"},{"start":6472.461,"end":6499.344,"text":"所以我們為什麼說我前一陣子會主動的說如果要入獄風機的話因為台灣地小人稠所以真的要蓋的話要請開發單位要三思一定要做好處理才可以蓋我知道這是從2000年左右就開始推動那當然後來我們這個在106年我們風力發電四年的計畫裡面政策依舊是非常明確就是邁向2025的非核家園的願景"},{"start":6500.345,"end":6521.974,"text":"那這就是我們民進黨的神主牌之一嘛那麼快速增加風機的政策是從這個時候開始的那其實民進黨政府要做什麼法律就會配合修什麼你們要推風電光電基本上就算看到問題聽到居民這個抗議我想請問部長你還會照這個意思去做嗎"},{"start":6523.194,"end":6545.167,"text":"報告委員這個第一個是風電有分離岸風電跟陸域風機那我們針對是陸域陸域其實對所以部長很支持嗎你是陸域風機如果他要蓋的話是要500公尺以上等於是直徑要一公里所以基本上在台灣要找到這樣的土地是不容易的那最好是多到離岸區會比較好那所以如果他還是要做我們政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":6545.487,"end":6573.604,"text":"基本上他現在有非常多有幾起的這種所謂陸域風機的環評都要送到環境部其實他要通過的機會是非常辛苦的對我們看到那個鴻威風場剛剛被環評這個否決掉那居民都很高興那但是我現在看到彰化還有8座的風場正在開發數量好像還有90多隻還有我們那個東部也是一樣總共有58座大風機"},{"start":6575.086,"end":6589.258,"text":"我們都知道其實大家有去過我們花東地區應該可以看到我們的海岸線是非常漂亮的也是我們台灣的一個非常美的一個美景那麼如果這個地方如果都插滿風景您覺得部長您看得下去嗎"},{"start":6590.03,"end":6613.355,"text":"基本上他雖然可能有些風機可能是超過500公尺距離這個建築物可是其實他對景觀的影響是非常的大的所以我才會特別說這一定要請開發單位我真的是個人是不支持也不鼓勵我看經濟部是不鼓勵也是不鼓勵那台灣的可是台電的網站還是在說要持續發展"},{"start":6615.735,"end":6630.406,"text":"那我看我也看到部長在媒體上講您是不支持的那我在想一個問題就是說我們能不能把這個東西就立法寫得更嚴謹一點讓這些事情就不會再發生嗎這個立法有沒有準備讓這個陸域風場走入歷史"},{"start":6640.285,"end":6666.241,"text":"這個應該是能源主管機關這個經濟部能源署的工作這不是我們環評的工作我覺得是可以大家來討論這個問題如果這個東西確實我記得其實只要每一次地方上有設這種陸域的風場的時候地方上的反彈都是非常大的那既然是這樣全台灣我想不管設在哪裡大家都會反對那如果是這樣是不是我們在這個規定上面是不是來做重研的一個審查"},{"start":6667.012,"end":6690.188,"text":"包永其實這個因為我自己也到歐洲很多地方去看過他們的陸域風機不過人家的特性就是非常大我們台灣跟人家不能比啊而且他們歐洲人有一個講說聽到咻咻的聲音代表錢一直進來所以他們是歡迎的所以基本上台灣如果要要推動陸域風機的話其實整個重新的大家認知跟我剛剛聽到那個咻咻咻的聲音錢就進來是進到誰的口袋"},{"start":6694.58,"end":6706.416,"text":"進到居民可以分啊所以這基本上還是我們綠能的口袋這個一定要跟這個民眾例如說像那次公民電廠那樣的概念這樣發展會比較妥當以前是250公尺嘛以前是200現在是要500嘛對不對"},{"start":6709.64,"end":6737.871,"text":"可是我看11月的時候那個方院鄉代表會就通過了決議他們規定是離建築物1000公尺就1公里那也就是半徑這樣整圈就是2公里你覺得這樣可行嗎可以這樣調整嗎這個是屬於地方的權責他們希望有到的規模我們也都尊重但是目前我們的規範是500但是500其實在台灣已經相對非常困難了因為這樣子如果我們沒有訂一個好的標準就會造成這個企業"},{"start":6739.071,"end":6765.361,"text":"跟我們的政府在做還有居民在做對抗嘛那對地方來講也是不好的啊OK好委員這個部分我們其實這個是我們環境部在環評規範可以來進行的所以我們也可以來考慮我希望大家是統統一的標準啊不要讓地方去扛讓那個造成這個地方那麼多的這個雜音跟那個這個這個鬥爭嘛好不好好謝謝還有現在我們看到那個碳費"},{"start":6766.909,"end":6782.997,"text":"所以我們現在川普老大常常轉個身說法就不一樣了那他現在退出巴黎氣候協定目前看起來其他各國是沒有要跟進的那對我們的影響好像不大"},{"start":6783.977,"end":6805.629,"text":"你在3月初的時候還認為說歐盟在這個CBAN上面可能會往後實施一年嘛那會延到2027年他們的新草案也還在調整但你的報告是說我們歐盟的CBAN會如期舉行而且會擴大後面門檻跟簡化流程這個對我們出口的鋼鐵"},{"start":6807.69,"end":6826.155,"text":"相關下游產品是會有影響的那現在面對的是不確定的關稅跟加收的碳費是要撥兩成比啦我看到英國本來就是在2027年才要開始實施如果接下來歐盟是因為關稅或其他因素延後上路的話或者是有更多後面 我們會跟進嘛"},{"start":6827.715,"end":6847.049,"text":"我們會密切注意國際的這個情勢啦但是也跟委員說得很清楚就是國際上並沒有一個國家因此因為關稅的問題來大轉彎那歐盟目前其實他過去一開始要法案宣布之後我們看到很多的訊息是會以後一年但是目前來看的話歐盟並沒有往後延只是2027年2月才要交"},{"start":6847.509,"end":6872.419,"text":"可以開始購買這個這個碳的憑證所以目前來看的話我們目前當然啦不排除有一些國家進行大規模氣候變遷的這個政策的調整我們會滾動式的因為產業會擔心啦就是成本增加嘛 毛利減少那可能很多企業會面臨這個是不是可以經營下去的問題那2008年金融海嘯那一年我想影響最大的時間也是在一年以後"},{"start":6873.479,"end":6897.984,"text":"那我想川普現在這個對等關稅已經很多行業被影響了那我們也在預測可能就在明年的話可能也會有很多的這個廠商受到影響那我希望政府啊能夠幫我們企業去想一個出路因為我們目的不是要收碳費嘛如果我們企業關了我們什麼錢都收不到那個也不是我們要的我希望環境部這邊能夠"},{"start":6899.384,"end":6926.418,"text":"再擬定或者是多一些配套或者一些優惠措施來因應這一對這個關稅的問題引起的這些問題裡面能夠做一些調整這樣好嗎好可以委員其實我們是要幫企業順利的雙軸轉型成功這是我們要的目的啦收攤費的意義也在這邊好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長六位想要委員訓導結束之後我們就休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6935.363,"end":6937.746,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們彭部長六人好 部長好我想今天應該大家都很關心喔這個川普總統上台之後他再次表明退出這個巴黎氣候協定那也根據"},{"start":6952.519,"end":6964.816,"text":"國際能源總署的評估美國退出協定可能導致全球減碳的努力損失將近20%以上的動能那這個決定當然對我們全球的氣候治理影響非常大"},{"start":6965.834,"end":6985.749,"text":"那麼再加上現在美國關稅的政策轉彎讓我們出口產業的這個淨零轉型會造成大的壓力那台灣企業也面臨著關稅壁壘跟這個碳邊境調整機制的雙重挑戰剛剛講過但是我們也有看到有看到一個是40%的出口企業表示可能會放緩這個"},{"start":6987.53,"end":7009.59,"text":"碳減排的投資那根據你的報告也有寫到美國政策造成了全球綠能投資這個投資的信心或減碳的企圖受挫是可以預見的那畢竟對於整個企業來說投入這個減碳是提高很多的成本再加上現在的關稅那可能直接導致所謂的企業獲利下降甚至虧損倒閉的問題我也接續著剛剛我們求證局委員在問這兩難的困境"},{"start":7015.086,"end":7033.037,"text":"初步你也有在你的受訪裡面有講到可能初步全國的碳費規模就會破300億左右50到60億然後後面會再增加那再來就是關稅的部分也根據經濟部的推廣的影響也非常的高那我想要請問一下部長目前面對現在的這個"},{"start":7034.747,"end":7060.074,"text":"整體的不管是關稅的衝擊等等的對於企業美國的這個政策轉變我們政府有沒有更詳盡的量化分析評估它對於這個國內產業淨零轉型的具體衝擊是多少好 幫國委員其實第一個是要知道它的關稅最後是版本是什麼因為其實每天都在變所以其實我們是滾動式的在調整你沒有照這個層次去做一個比較細緻的分析嗎比如說講到10% 20%或32%"},{"start":7064.015,"end":7089.436,"text":"還沒有到那麼細緻因為畢竟關稅他的這個代表的意義跟他的量體比這個碳大很多所以我們基本上是看完之後也看這個相關產業的發展然後最後決定說像這樣的結論就是我們預估可能的一個情境但是實際上有多少信心數減少多少投資多少這個還要在一段時間才能估算的出來那你們可以依照現在因為你至少就10%的現在就是10%嘛那未來"},{"start":7092.498,"end":7119.218,"text":"可能還會再提高那對於這樣子有沒有一個比較比較細緻的量化的分析因為目前這個我們的電子業的影響雖然是有但是沒有想像中來的這麼的高那台灣的主要的碳費很大的來源現在是半導體業的影響那當然了石化產業或鋼鐵業過去幾年經營的比較辛苦所以其實我們現在對於那種需要幫忙的部分我們也會爭取的經費跟經濟部一起來合作協助產業轉型"},{"start":7120.299,"end":7148.476,"text":"好謝謝這就是接下來要問的因為你也看到你說具體的減碳目標是不會改變的那我想要問在這樣的情況之下你們會不會針對尤其是我們中部有這些重災區有很多的中小企業像你說鋼鐵或甚至一些機械業等等的有沒有可能採取這個降低減碳目標或者是針對特定的或者是暫緩收取碳費的方式來協助這些企業來達到這個轉型的可行的措施"},{"start":7149.156,"end":7172.107,"text":"那你也有提到一些專案補助的輔導那具體的內容是什麼因為這個都會影響到如何協助企業在這麼複雜的國際環境中可以堅定的推進淨零轉型好 謝謝委員因為整個中南部有很多的扣建業者特別是螺絲的業者他們疏歐他們都很擔心不過跟委員報告其實因為目前的扣建業者只有一家要收碳費"},{"start":7172.987,"end":7197.515,"text":"大概他大概交的話大概只要交18萬如果按照他什麼都不做檢探18萬就好了所以其實影響是很小的那第二個呢他對蘇歐可能會有影響可是目前的CBAN他的目前的草案是50噸以上才要再收所以50噸的對多數的企業特別是中小企業蘇歐其實沒有那麼高所以請中小企業其實可以放心那目前的我們會加強跟歐盟的聯繫如果"},{"start":7197.915,"end":7207.696,"text":"因為目前的擴建業者基本上大多只有一家要收而已其他多數都不用收碳費所以目前我們會積極的來保障他們在歐盟的協商的部分能夠銜接得上"},{"start":7208.274,"end":7231.289,"text":"那針對去美國的這些出口的企業呢目前美國出口的跟碳是比較沒有什麼影響因為美國沒有美國的CBAN但是問題是說我覺得產業在這波關稅的挑戰之下它的轉型是最重要的轉型兩個一個是綠色轉型一個數位轉型那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起積極來合作協助這種所謂的會碳排的產業"},{"start":7232.109,"end":7247.121,"text":"對 因為其實我也有看到你們今天報告有寫到一個你們去年7月1號有發布這個溫室氣體減量額度的交易拍賣跟移轉管理辦法對啊 截至今年的4月11日起有受理了63案的這個專案註冊申請那通過了16案那環境部在去年辦理5場次的這個自願減量專案的說明會共計908人參加那我就想說那你們今年預估要辦幾場是不是可以擴大辦理"},{"start":7261.938,"end":7289.483,"text":"報告委員這個我們正在演繹這個預計會有非常多場來跟產業來溝通中部也會去進行所以到時候也請委員多給我們知道我們預計會有很多場去做產業面對面的溝通因為有時候我們設想的問題不見得每一個廠商都可以一定要現場溝通所以我今天的問題就是說這個部分有沒有預計新的一年要辦多少場非常多目前我們自己隨便算大概都三四十場以上好很好謝謝"},{"start":7290.703,"end":7311.542,"text":"因為目前上一年是五場看到如果有這樣子的成效可以繼續再辦理下去我們也會支持另外就是在淨零轉型的部分當然不僅是挑戰也是機遇那根據2024年的中華民國溫室氣體的排放清測報告在能源部分燃料的燃燒還是仍然是主要的排放來源那超過了50%"},{"start":7313.163,"end":7325.442,"text":"那你今天的書面報告也有提到說石化燃料提升就提高了他競爭力變成主流也是可以預見的但是反過來說台灣經歷這麼多年了這些再生能源風電啊等等等等的其實"},{"start":7326.755,"end":7347.903,"text":"不僅可以看到未來是有這個極限的存在也不可能真正取代所謂的石化能源的目標那簡單來講現在我們真的也是進度落後所以剛剛其實有委員問到有關於這個非核家園這個神主牌我是想要請問當然現在立法院的在野黨很多的立委也有提案要來修這個法"},{"start":7349.324,"end":7363.05,"text":"但我想要請問一下因為這個過程中想要問部長你的態度是什麼因為你剛剛有講到有媒體錯誤報導錯誤引用是不是就是有擷取部分可是然後你說這個應該是在全方位任性委員會挑戰不是在你的氣候變遷委員會討論可是這個部分我覺得我也沒有很認同我覺得氣候變遷委員會應該也要討論因為這跟碳排也有很大的關係所以我就想要問那部長你自己的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":7379.216,"end":7389.187,"text":"包委員因為我當時在算這個淨零的路徑的時候這個的確是一個選項但是我自己真的去算了之後發現有很多的可執行的難度的問題"},{"start":7390.379,"end":7412.781,"text":"且很多廢料安全的問題斷層的問題這個都不是我可以解決的那包含現在包含美國也有很多是支持也質疑我們的執政團隊為什麼這個這個選項不選擇啊那我沒關係我只是想問你個人的表態啊因為總不能夠為什麼這時候要問啊就是你總是要表態說你究竟認為這個是不是一個可行的方案而且你支持不支持"},{"start":7413.622,"end":7430.747,"text":"這個困難可以克服 包含修法也是一種困難可是總不能說 之前我質詢過我們的院長也說 之前的另外一位部長也說你們先修法通過啊但問題是 好啊 修法通過了你們會執行嗎這就是我的問題所以我希望部長在這個部分是不是可以表態一下"},{"start":7431.647,"end":7460.003,"text":"因為我不是核能的主管機關我也不是能源主管機關我們從淨零碳排的確是可以給一些意見從這個角度你支持嗎我認為當然這個其實它有很多複雜的因素例如說像我們過去的核電廠是沒有環評的也不知道當時的地理的狀況現在到這個時間點如果也要做要完整的去做處理這個以我們環評的經驗花上幾年都跑不掉所以基本上我會覺得是說這個很多困難挑戰所以你認為"},{"start":7460.683,"end":7483.744,"text":"你不支持我不是不支持就是說真的要做起來很困難所以部長不是不支持只是過程中有很多挑戰基本上我是開放來看這個事情任何好的能源好的方式我們都開放來討論但是這的確有它歷史的共業因為過去決定這個事情不是那麼民主的來執行的嘛現在所以這個問題要做真的很辛苦啦那所以部長還是不願意表態支持不支持那如果立法院修法通過之後你會支持嗎"},{"start":7484.91,"end":7507.616,"text":"我會遵照大院的這個建議但是我必須也提醒這個委員這個要真的要做是非常辛苦的因為台灣沒有這樣的經驗過好那最後一個問題台中有民眾響應我們的環保回收那並遵照這個減三排三大步驟操作後將手機回收結果殊不知啊他回收的隔天開始他的Apple Pay"},{"start":7508.096,"end":7530.322,"text":"竟然被盜用還盜刷了高鐵票而且共73筆的交易高達10萬元以上重點是整個過程中他也沒有收到任何交易的簡訊通知那想要請教部長一下面對民眾響應這個環保回收而且即便已經遵照了步驟來操作卻仍遭到盜刷跟資料外洩的事情是否會讓民眾不敢再響應這個環保活動"},{"start":7532.841,"end":7555.719,"text":"這個委員我今天才知道這個事情我再來請我們了解一下你知道嗎這個部分我們我們再了解一下麻煩部長了解一下因為我想這個是一件本來是善意但發生這個事可能會影響到大家的這個回收的意願OK好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝六位謝謝部長我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7574.531,"end":7575.845,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":7604.957,"end":7605.125,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8251.143,"end":8265.29,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 下一位我們請劉建國委員好 謝謝主席 有請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":8271.575,"end":8285.086,"text":"部長這個美國家大越大排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不真的事實就會比這次政府調高關稅"},{"start":8286.607,"end":8310.794,"text":"那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴衝一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步啦但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看"},{"start":8311.554,"end":8323.42,"text":"你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作那第二"},{"start":8326.932,"end":8345.114,"text":"不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?剛剛之前講的那個合和的事情有斷章取義,這部份應該是沒有啦,對不對?"},{"start":8346.756,"end":8358.184,"text":"我不反對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定"},{"start":8358.936,"end":8387.433,"text":"然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們小部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體同胞計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其二氧化碳基因其導致地球冷化的氣體排放量"},{"start":8389.048,"end":8401.142,"text":"所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普三年之後的作為"},{"start":8402.523,"end":8420.906,"text":"我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益,但是這種作為減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊。陳如部長早上的報告,台灣是氣候受害的國家,我想環境部可以樂觀,但是相關的因應必須提早。"},{"start":8421.747,"end":8444.606,"text":"要有作為部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣"},{"start":8445.146,"end":8464.711,"text":"但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的碳會費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對"},{"start":8470.273,"end":8491.203,"text":"然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期整應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一"},{"start":8497.08,"end":8515.867,"text":"確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以"},{"start":8516.147,"end":8535.248,"text":"我們會看 例如說90天後現在只剩下80幾天了那個90天 80 90天以後到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙"},{"start":8536.71,"end":8556.245,"text":"就是做企業的後盾嘛所以我們的盡力目標不會走回投入但達成時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮或立刻去了解這個排單到位的狀況聽聽他們的意見那我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致的"},{"start":8557.926,"end":8570.634,"text":"如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多"},{"start":8572.995,"end":8576.959,"text":"3.54% 將近4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例"},{"start":8592.815,"end":8598.679,"text":"並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了自身難保了要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失"},{"start":8609.406,"end":8632.425,"text":"好,報告委員,這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持,那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些遺緩經費的調整行政院也是你不知道過江喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁這個能夠...對,還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為,兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好"},{"start":8633.666,"end":8657.002,"text":"好沒問題沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始各大委員會都裝設這個"},{"start":8658.563,"end":8679.792,"text":"CO2的數值的監控儀器花信各大委員會開會時常常也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、餐館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講"},{"start":8681.38,"end":8706.436,"text":"看不到一個更積極的一個管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是談評啦實際上是談評齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視是我自愛難行"},{"start":8708.115,"end":8720.425,"text":"這個是真的有很大的問題如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生部長看一下這個叫什麼LalapopLalapop在哪裡"},{"start":8730.438,"end":8737.751,"text":"南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚怪一個拉拉破變成人體"},{"start":8739.929,"end":8763.303,"text":"空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一片網友的受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個假酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到"},{"start":8765.083,"end":8779.524,"text":"然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清清機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了"},{"start":8780.825,"end":8797.3,"text":"內場回應目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心"},{"start":8803.291,"end":8816.151,"text":"我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?"},{"start":8818.681,"end":8838.142,"text":"今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席,當逛街的民眾有這種問題,然後賣場裡面還有貴位的員工,還有施工的工人,他們就不會受到影響。也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天,到底他們的安全誰來把關?"},{"start":8839.5,"end":8844.845,"text":"那我再回到這個數據,消費度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛、嗜醉、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個消費度到底是誰來把關?"},{"start":8863.188,"end":8889.178,"text":"包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物好啊現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對來說那目前這個拉拉破因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中"},{"start":8889.918,"end":8901.088,"text":"好 部長你答問我台北市環保局有去稽查嘛 到現在還沒有結論嘛對 3月20號開幕了對 3月21號他就去了對 3月21號就去了對 去了 你知道要去幹嘛 稽查嘛 去稽查 對好 你看這個過程3月20開幕 3月21號他就去了 3月24要求四次專責人員然後4月2號 北市環保局請檢測公司採樣"},{"start":8918.786,"end":8937.031,"text":"你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜"},{"start":8948.798,"end":8969,"text":"這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啊對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣"},{"start":8973.187,"end":8983.475,"text":"這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧對齁這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個等你跟Moto說就好"},{"start":8998.579,"end":9012.429,"text":"跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000ppm這部分當時在"},{"start":9015.231,"end":9035.458,"text":"跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準"},{"start":9039.139,"end":9067.65,"text":"但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到時候一個講一千一個講五千"},{"start":9068.82,"end":9086.729,"text":"你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。"},{"start":9088.066,"end":9108.371,"text":"我剛才講了啊,它當下也在持續施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,這等於是兩部法律在看同一個廠子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的衝突跟矛盾"},{"start":9110.796,"end":9125.768,"text":"包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定"},{"start":9129.611,"end":9145.92,"text":"這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年啦通過之後不聽不懂"},{"start":9147.12,"end":9170.707,"text":"這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我可能要包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次針對室內空瓶的這樣的一個秀啊,包含用這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?"},{"start":9171.627,"end":9194.512,"text":"把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆"},{"start":9196.482,"end":9223.933,"text":"我還是要求一個時間嘛 你一個月不行 不然最少兩個月嘛 可以吧好 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請托宣吉委員好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長來 請部長"},{"start":9229.48,"end":9245.091,"text":"好 部長好那在月初美國片面宣布全球加徵關稅那我們台灣首當其衝被加徵32%雖然現在在談判期有90天的緩衝期可是仍然有10%的基本關稅"},{"start":9246.212,"end":9268.768,"text":"那我也看部長在報導的時候也有表示說這個對等關稅的衝擊很有可能比歐盟的西變影響還大那再加上我國跟美國近鄰轉型還有近鄰減碳的工作上有很多的合作那這一部分我們環境部的相關部門有沒有針對這影響評估有做一些報告嗎"},{"start":9270.029,"end":9285.021,"text":"其實第一個是說他的關稅32到現在為止一直在滾動的在弄那可能是未來90天以內就會有新的結果那其實我們一直在關注美國新的一個政策那因為也的確委員說的都是道理就是說美國現在已經不談氣候變遷了但是他會談循環經濟所以對我們環境部來說的話也是重要的一環"},{"start":9290.646,"end":9317.742,"text":"所以我們會積極的是衝擊有多少像委員提到的影響的產品或是說減碳的供應鏈等等這個是我們關注的我們會一個一個來來看產業的細項我們還是要等整個經濟部或是我們談判出來的結果之後一步一步的在細緻上談一下我們的衝擊大概有多少啊我們的確是很認真在準備這個事情好部長那你有提到其實像這一波美國大幅提高這個關稅你看他像對中國"},{"start":9318.542,"end":9343.541,"text":"的制品關稅它提高到245%那一定會影響中國的鋼鐵鋁還有太陽能設備跟電動車的電池等那這些近鄰關鍵的材料那雖然好像只對中國有影響但是事實上這些原物料跟零組件都是全球減碳供應鏈不可或缺的一部分那這樣子是不是會"},{"start":9344.562,"end":9365.833,"text":"放緩我國企業對於轉型的進程或者會增加我們這些綠色轉型的成本包委員因為如果說以這個太陽能設備或是離岸風電相關的設備我們是沒有中國的紅色供應鏈在裡面所以我們的這種再生能源的這個進展應該不是受到直接立即的一個衝擊"},{"start":9366.793,"end":9392.656,"text":"但是其他的部分例如說好電動車電池等等這個就是我們未來要關注的一個焦點因為畢竟中國在這個稀土的掌握或是重金屬的掌握是有一大的比例如果說全世界這個關稅起的話其實這個對我們後續這樣電池產業的衝擊會很大那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來寫上這個事情因為這個數據經濟部包含產發署他們會比我們敏感很多我們會尊重他們的意見來做後續的研判"},{"start":9393.357,"end":9404.566,"text":"所以部長的意思說針對電動車電池這部分可能影響比較大對其實這個因為中國扮演很大的一個稀土例如說外來的鋰電池等等這個可能都會受到一些衝擊但是這個還要觀察啦那像那這個電動車電池這些的產業他會"},{"start":9410.471,"end":9428.968,"text":"變成會優先終止這個投資的計畫嗎可能就是說第一個是會不會斷鏈全球供應鏈會不會斷鏈斷鏈之後其實這個就產生價格的一個波動這個後續的影響這個我想經濟部可能比我們會更清楚但是我覺得這樣對我們來說的話發展可能會受到一些影響"},{"start":9429.989,"end":9451.89,"text":"那像這個它這個連鎖效應會不會影響到我們整個國家的減碳工作甚至我們的減碳目標需不需要來做調整第一個是說我們認為因為我們1月23號好不容易匯集整個行政團隊還有整個我們現在正在進行匯集一個目標之後跟大眾來進行溝通我們好不容易有一個目標我們這時候在"},{"start":9452.25,"end":9468.501,"text":"在改而且那個改的這個目標現在還不確定所以我們還是維持現在的一個狀況但是我們會擴大跟產業跟各界的一個溝通如果溝通我們掌握到好的數據的時候未來還有滾動調整的一個空間所以我們現在是穩定大家往前走甚至是趁這個機會轉型為最優先的目標"},{"start":9471.343,"end":9486.055,"text":"所以目前還不到調整目標的階段目前來看的話因為最後的數字還沒有出來如果最後的數字出來對產業可能活不下去了我們會配合經濟部我們會爭取預算是不是對產業有一些更好的一個輔導的方案"},{"start":9487.861,"end":9508.966,"text":"那我們下週也會舉辦這個氣候變遷委員會那是不是有機會把關稅影響到衝擊這些綠色轉型的這些事項在談判的過程中可以跟總統談一下可以爭取台美淨零排碳的合作機會像我們擔心說不要只跟美國"},{"start":9511.139,"end":9527.048,"text":"談這個買碳排高的天然氣是不是有機會擴大投資針對綠能像我們這部分可以擴大投資的機會也可以爭取發展淨零碳排的意願包委員當然這個天然氣只是一部分我覺得那個不是大的重點"},{"start":9527.628,"end":9556.878,"text":"美國有很多近鄰的新的科技例如說碳捕捉跟封存的CCS等等或是各種新的工具我們都非常期待當然川普總統對離岸風電等等會覺得說這個不重要這個其實我們也都聽到了所以我們其實在裡面應該會有一些建議當然這個都是我們的建議最後整個合作還是要看我們的國安團隊或談判團隊對美國的協商對啊 因為我們希望不要只放在碳排高的天然氣上面"},{"start":9557.638,"end":9573.96,"text":"盡量擴大投資的機會去找一些綠能把我們這個近年碳排的這些能源有機會來多採購好 可以可以好 那部長在之前報導的時候也有提到我們有關注一下你說有評估"},{"start":9575.444,"end":9591.59,"text":"跟行政院來爭取經費設計一套協助企業綠色轉型的方案那你也說大概目標一到兩個月就能提出來讓企業能更有提早減碳的意願那這部分我們初步的規劃有出來了嗎"},{"start":9592.33,"end":9617.956,"text":"目前還沒有只是說因為第一個我們還是要等那個關稅最後談判的結果到底誰受衝擊我們一定要因為現在的這個經費是非常的緊縮所以我們要針對受影響的為第一優先我們不希望浪費錢所以這個部分我們要等這個關稅最後談判定了哪一個產業影響最大我們就針對那個來做這個所謂的客製化的來做處理所以目前還沒有但是我必須說"},{"start":9618.596,"end":9647.415,"text":"這個是我們很關注的我們會一直緊盯的來調整來關注這個事情所以要等到關稅定那你看哪個受哪個企業產業受影響比較大再來做調整這個報告委員這個兩個部分一個是從這個我們的經濟部門經貿談判部門最後的結果那另外一個呢是我們環境部會積極的跟產業來溝通因為有時候從產業直接的市場上的溝通或是我們談判最後的溝通兩方面得到的一個結果我相信會對企業是最有用的"},{"start":9648.476,"end":9671.141,"text":"那我們剛剛都有提到美國對全球加徵關稅的影響勢必會影響到我們減碳設備跟原物料價格的連動上漲那針對這部分也會影響到企業推展綠色轉型的意願那我們是不是針對碳費的收入有沒有機會用於協助產業綠色轉型減少他們企業壓力緩衝的機會"},{"start":9676.082,"end":9705.722,"text":"因為我們現在這個就在規劃因為我們的碳費審議委員會在前幾個禮拜有開過第一次會議那下一次會議可能就要談說未來這個明年的這個如果有收到碳費之後明年的這個經費要怎麼去做使用那現在因為遇到這個關稅的這個衝擊我想這個其實是我們最關心的所以我也贊同未來兩個這個委員提到的一個綠色轉型的方案實成或是說如何幫助這個受重啟的產業他的能夠順利轉型成功所以我非常同意委員的看法"},{"start":9706.442,"end":9731.739,"text":"因為我們就擔心說因為關稅的問題會拖延影響到我國淨零減碳的進度所以這個碳費他本來就有補助相關機關執行溫室氣體減量工作的用意所以應該朝這一部分我們來擴大補助對象對受關稅影響較大的產業我們用碳費協助他推展綠色轉型的工作那也對於我們"},{"start":9732.72,"end":9758.411,"text":"環境部達成2030、2035減碳目標應該有比較大的注意吧對對 這個我們會來列入考慮但是因為這個還沒有出來等到出來有影響我們一定會做出這樣的考量對啊 因為我們希望這個碳飛能夠協助產業來做這個綠色轉型的工作對對好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林淑文委員來做詢答"},{"start":9764.091,"end":9782.47,"text":"林淑芬委員啊我老公人該該誰?我想說我聽到黃好 謝謝主席喔 是不是請我們彭部長部長林委員好部長好"},{"start":9784.12,"end":9811.541,"text":"大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過就是說這個產業界工廠透過SIMS系統CEMS系統做了空污數據造假那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不可以"},{"start":9813.996,"end":9822.588,"text":"不只可以及時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說"},{"start":9824.76,"end":9830.825,"text":"依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看 從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險"},{"start":9847.628,"end":9856.118,"text":"我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐"},{"start":9860.781,"end":9882.821,"text":"再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主"},{"start":9886.724,"end":9893.568,"text":"然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠"},{"start":9915.999,"end":9923.622,"text":"屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改"},{"start":9936.167,"end":9949.998,"text":"那我們24小時的監測算什麼 所以這不是一個小事 這是整個連續監測制度 連續監測系統的信任的崩解"},{"start":9951.175,"end":9953.056,"text":"所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下"},{"start":9970.831,"end":9973.513,"text":"這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來"},{"start":9987.424,"end":10001.592,"text":"所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統"},{"start":10007.145,"end":10020.771,"text":"如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位"},{"start":10026.004,"end":10053.791,"text":"你是誰 對啦 你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題 為什麼有人一直問請問 我只是請教一下 我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示 剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎"},{"start":10055.533,"end":10077.458,"text":"對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理主席請你裁示啦"},{"start":10084.883,"end":10106.622,"text":"請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解"},{"start":10108.305,"end":10119.576,"text":"主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業"},{"start":10123.959,"end":10139.771,"text":"企業費欺負這個大財團 我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個祖密 到這裡面來的每個人是誰 你都搞不清楚狀況 這樣行嗎你以為在這裡問政 沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思 就在那邊講說 但是你是哪來來 給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下"},{"start":10153.995,"end":10154.475,"text":"台灣時報我為什麼要講這個呢"},{"start":10177.287,"end":10188.95,"text":"我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是做假的判你命的那樣呢你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法"},{"start":10204.995,"end":10219.412,"text":"你們的DAS系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的"},{"start":10221.695,"end":10249.011,"text":"驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是"},{"start":10249.963,"end":10264.812,"text":"你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼"},{"start":10266.203,"end":10280.445,"text":"好 包委你在1月2號你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你夾車給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業 焚化爐 事業廢棄業鋼鐵業"},{"start":10295.945,"end":10304.83,"text":"水泥業然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下"},{"start":10311.19,"end":10335.822,"text":"保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策不是 包委員重大變革 而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣"},{"start":10338.823,"end":10340.446,"text":"給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續監測系統還當兒戲"},{"start":10348.322,"end":10373.948,"text":"保證員你說你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫走不動 要回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的"},{"start":10377.409,"end":10391.287,"text":"林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?不然你不知道啦,你把業務單位去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。"},{"start":10393.149,"end":10407.684,"text":"他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量"},{"start":10413.65,"end":10417.793,"text":"總和共 總和共 給你八年的時間輔導業者給你八年的時間準備 給你八年要做你說沒有人可以來驗證 沒有人力可以消化 可以把關"},{"start":10431.804,"end":10445.152,"text":"喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說啊沒關係啦 這個大使系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣"},{"start":10447.932,"end":10454.535,"text":"二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監督我講比較難聽的 台塑六親為例台塑六親 地方的建設 如果需要錢給他簽申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的整個 整個有鄉鎮的台塑六親不可以忘記了一件人說到冠中 一件人說到義中 一件人說到鄉中是這樣"},{"start":10475.39,"end":10485.299,"text":"你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業、不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇,地方政府也沒有專頁去做"},{"start":10499.147,"end":10519.247,"text":"然後人家就不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初"},{"start":10522.43,"end":10540.483,"text":"把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看"},{"start":10541.536,"end":10545.763,"text":"你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":10556.372,"end":10562.534,"text":"這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西應監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個"},{"start":10573.971,"end":10595.743,"text":"氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮 揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中 污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔 我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣喔高風險 高污染的"},{"start":10602.628,"end":10605.369,"text":"我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改 所以我們才要改善這個"},{"start":10627.894,"end":10646.013,"text":"監督的系統要確保他是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎"},{"start":10647.284,"end":10665.558,"text":"博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對我的說法不是喔你們對我的說法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量"},{"start":10675.726,"end":10682.21,"text":"你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以這麼亂說你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了"},{"start":10690.987,"end":10714.58,"text":"你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 沒錯 顯然你都不知道這個事情知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大現在是怎樣"},{"start":10718.237,"end":10721.159,"text":"不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你現在是用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下"},{"start":10746.229,"end":10773.329,"text":"其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都中招八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的"},{"start":10776.092,"end":10792.781,"text":"量能不足 全國是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低"},{"start":10803.117,"end":10811.579,"text":"超標的連罰金都不繳超標的開罰單而已現在唸罰單就可以篡改 改改都唸罰單就不罰了騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假還不是你們 不是你們去找的是我們揭發的你們包庇的"},{"start":10831.226,"end":10847.798,"text":"2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們 我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":10855.694,"end":10861.46,"text":"人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗"},{"start":10878.789,"end":10892.937,"text":"我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼"},{"start":10893.871,"end":10912.806,"text":"那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告"},{"start":10916.428,"end":10940.199,"text":"你們 你沒有看你們的SIMS計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知"},{"start":10941.633,"end":10944.575,"text":"現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供讓他們知道,讓他們沒人看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板"},{"start":10955.234,"end":10975.719,"text":"能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的"},{"start":10980.2,"end":11003.216,"text":"你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統"},{"start":11004.156,"end":11017.468,"text":"還要能夠比對Modbus、TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒有人力 也沒有人 也沒有專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們"},{"start":11025.353,"end":11044.88,"text":"就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸"},{"start":11047.941,"end":11053.044,"text":"甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中"},{"start":11059.844,"end":11080.646,"text":"出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況"},{"start":11082.285,"end":11092.654,"text":"這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 頂頭的人 脖子都聽不聽"},{"start":11111.257,"end":11116.1,"text":"保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了"},{"start":11128.035,"end":11143.626,"text":"整個管理的制度又回到業者 財團自己裝監測器自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核六天一天 人家說是冠中 一天是疑中 兩天是重中這樣喔 現在這是要怎麼感動啦你這個走回頭路 過去就沒辦法了你現在說這樣子行 這是在欺騙誰啦"},{"start":11158.061,"end":11173.162,"text":"環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三"},{"start":11175.011,"end":11201.107,"text":"你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做"},{"start":11202.168,"end":11210.997,"text":"像話嗎 太粗魯了 太暴力了1月1號要做 1月2號整掉 辦法刪掉 通通都改掉你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎 你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎 吃相難看啦 包庇的難看啦不覺得嗎"},{"start":11225.796,"end":11240.479,"text":"包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啦那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分資訊的提升這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔是是你不要說到說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改造回來嗎改革能夠停滯嗎還不是改革欸監察制度都沒有改欸"},{"start":11254.386,"end":11267.251,"text":"只是你的管理 漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞 欺騙人民啦這不是包庇 什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做 你說你要回去調查"},{"start":11279.827,"end":11283.528,"text":"我現在在問你 就我所講的這個 你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的人人在台上講話 啊我們要起一個橋 但是我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補走一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎"},{"start":11307.079,"end":11315.443,"text":"你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者感到可憐 感到可憐不然你說說也感到可憐如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟"},{"start":11325.985,"end":11344.094,"text":"還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你連夾布丹威我也可以懷疑 何立東懷疑是在惹事好慷啦石化產業大財團鋼鐵業都股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費請勿 多肥紅包不知道送多少別再說其他的對不對你裡面有人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快"},{"start":11354.54,"end":11370.59,"text":"這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 我會去回答小姐再給妳委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林曙芬委員發言那接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長請彭部長"},{"start":11386.537,"end":11406.604,"text":"黃委員好部長我先這個就剛剛淑芬委員講的我們真的希望就是部長要認真的去思考一下那也要去了解真正去了解到底是什麼樣的原因那另外我先從我們地方的事情先講起就是說就剛剛淑芬委員講的"},{"start":11408.204,"end":11424.06,"text":"其實有很多事情如果說要由地方的環保局來做監測或審查的話其實有時候會有地方人情的壓力像彰化地區在這幾年當中我們看到在上禮拜六公共電視有一個紀錄片就記錄整個彰化沿海地區"},{"start":11430.246,"end":11453.256,"text":"的這個環境的污染那其中有一部分是這個廢棄土的這個污染那我知道其實我當立委到現在幾乎每一個會期都會特別提到就是說在我們的這個地方有很多有的是在那個比較人煙稀少的地方或者是在八卦山山脈山谷"},{"start":11453.823,"end":11481.491,"text":"被亂到廢土或者是廢棄物的這個部分那這個地方是在彰化的西南角那原本是一個可能一個生態的一個園區後來因為沒有繼續經營那後來就變成這樣的一座可能就是廢棄土堆置的一個地方那我希望部長能夠知道就是說其實我們有很多的這個廢棄物的"},{"start":11483.671,"end":11502.679,"text":"這個處理廠他們也許你們都有那個GPS的那個定位或者是有什麼樣的監測那可是就是說上有政策下有對策有很多在半途或者是先到某一處先堆置之後再有非法的這個車輛然後再"},{"start":11504.539,"end":11525.532,"text":"再去這個人煙稀少的地方去請到所以我不知道就是說我們環境部對於這樣的一個狀況未來怎麼樣去預防或者現在這樣的一個廢棄物亂到的這種情形其實還是非常的多那我不知道說環境部在部長的這個領導之下針對這樣的一個狀況那我們要怎麼去改進"},{"start":11529.785,"end":11545.958,"text":"好 報告委員第一個是這個是所謂的有兩個一個是營建剩餘土石方跟營建廢棄物這兩個部分那當然這兩個部分一個是內政部國土署管的一個是營建這個廢棄物是環境部循環署管的這兩個部位之間其實過去呢"},{"start":11546.858,"end":11565.745,"text":"總有一些模糊地帶我們這邊是有連單在做處理那邊的土石方剛剛也有委員說他等於是會繞單出去所以目前兩個部會的確合在一起然後這個有中央我們兩個都願意來承擔做這個事情另外一個是這個也要跟地方政府因為彰化其實是本身"},{"start":11566.545,"end":11589.721,"text":"是被別人盜的所以其實我們現在是針對一些會輸出的縣市我們一個一個去談那希望大家一起合作組成一個平台首先就是全流向的管理它一定要這個進出到尾巴都要確定不要像現在這樣繞單的一個情況所以管理的機制要加強所以你們現在有這樣做嗎現在這要做因為也跟委員報告我們統計出來一年台灣大概是1000萬方應該是差不多1000萬噸"},{"start":11593.803,"end":11620.955,"text":"這個量真的在拖到當中所以我們也真的認知到這個問題也跨部會在協調因為過去其實這個跨級到很多的單位大家可能會覺得我只好做好我自己的但是就產出這樣的問題而且是三四十年來累積就這樣所以我們真的在處理但是還要一點點時間因為這個其實第一個需要經費第二個是很多部會的整合中央跟地方這個要一點點時間那我們現在工作的幾個月快要收尾了快要完成了"},{"start":11622.5,"end":11635.434,"text":"我們希望說這個問題能夠解決啦因為我也提了很多次那確實當時是說因為我們有那個GPS的那個衛星定位所以應該可以很容易去監測那結果真的是"},{"start":11638.717,"end":11663.568,"text":"有一些不肖業者他就是用繞單的方式或者是先在某個地方堆置堆置完之後再載到其他非法的那個堆置場去所以我覺得這個問題應該要確實真的要去解決要不然在我們的那個彰化有很多我剛剛講的八卦山的山谷或者是在這個彰化的西南角沿岸地區可能就是有一些廢棄的餘溫廢棄的那個農田"},{"start":11667.129,"end":11679.379,"text":"都被堆滿了這樣的一個土石方或者是廢棄物的那種有的根本不知道它是什麼東西啦所以我覺得說也麻煩部長或者是跟國土署這邊真的要盡速的將這個問題來解決"},{"start":11683.721,"end":11704.874,"text":"這個我們在進行當中大概還要再幾個月跟委員保證這個是我們正在進行的當中有結果第一個會跟委員報告好那另外我想請教就是說在那個川普總統上任之後那在4月初的這個對等關稅的這個問題那在他上任的時候那時候也提出來一個就是要"},{"start":11705.534,"end":11708.696,"text":"推出這個巴黎協定嘛 氣候協定那我想請教就是說在我們整個台灣的針對於這個淨零碳排或者是整個這樣的一個碳費會不會因為美國所提出來的這一個"},{"start":11722.965,"end":11750.319,"text":"這個譬如說退出這個巴黎氣候協定那會不會有做什麼樣的調整報告委員因為碳費目前我們是初期是300塊100塊50塊而且又高碳洩漏我們是不要有綠色通膨造成企業很大負擔先求有再求好的概念去推動這個制度所以目前我們也有算一些受到產業的影響的這個公司其實影響很低但是其實也有一些產業他可能就活不下去所以我們的確"},{"start":11751.86,"end":11772.172,"text":"但是這個還要等關稅最後結果出來之後我們應該會滾動的來做調整等於是還是要幫助產業但是這個也是一個轉型的機會所以你們是會做一個調整如果說對我們台灣衝擊很大最後的報告出來那我們當然一定要政府是企業的後盾我們一定會必須要來做處理"},{"start":11773.452,"end":11796.941,"text":"我們也希望就是說因為台灣是外貿就是外銷取向的一個國家那在4月3號就是川普總統提出來這個對等關稅這個議題其實對於基層的像宜彰化這邊中小企業居多那其實他們已經都出來了那有的甚至都沒有單所以對於就是說未來台灣可能"},{"start":11797.581,"end":11812.835,"text":"在某方面如果說對於我們的這個碳費或者是說這個美國這邊他們整個淨零碳排如果他們自己本身都有做一些調整的話那有沒有可能就是說我們也會做一個滾動式的一個調整"},{"start":11814.076,"end":11838.808,"text":"所以這個也是這個地方非常關心的因為總是要讓地方能夠活得下去如果說活不下去的話其實也會影響到很多勞工的生計所以我也希望就是說環境部針對這一部分也是因為我們要跟國際接軌一方面我們要跟國際接軌那一方面又要讓我們所有的地方這些產業"},{"start":11841.529,"end":11861.75,"text":"能夠符合我們的規定那又可以生存下去所以我覺得環境部也是扮演一個非常重要的一個角色我們會滾動式來調整就是說我們會做企業的後盾絕對不會說這個時候還要如果說真的企業經營不下去也不是我們樂見的所以我們一定會滾動式來做調整來協助"},{"start":11865.113,"end":11890.984,"text":"另外我想請教一下就是說未來我們原本說2030年就是階段減碳目標就是有那個逐漸減碳那我想問一下就是在今天問一下部長就是針對你覺得說2030年你的這個減碳的目標有沒有鬆動或者是還是充滿著信心或者是你覺得說未來可能也會做一些調整"},{"start":11891.964,"end":11903.83,"text":"對 報告委員今天我有公布一個數字就是2023年我們的減碳跟2005比是4.64上一個數字是1.8表示我們台灣的減碳是有成效的那未來我們目前預估2024大概是5到6然後2025"},{"start":11907.972,"end":11934.052,"text":"大概是8到9左右這樣的一個幅度所以我們按照這個趨勢下去當然我們28加減2我是希望是至少要28但是萬一整個局勢變差有可能會減2到26所以我們給他一個範圍但是說真的現在關稅的衝擊可能比這個還要來的大所以說真的我等到最後出來說不定我們還在建議是不是要變成再多一個1%或2%再做修正這個的確是有可能"},{"start":11934.752,"end":11956.957,"text":"我不是那麼剛硬的說一定要怎麼樣台灣要生存還是最重要的對對對好那我在這邊也是感謝部長因為你是一個肯做事的人所以我剛剛提到的地方的這個污染的這個議題我們希望就是說能夠我們要有一些政策有一些對策來積極的解決那另外就是說因應美國的這個關稅的議題那其實我們針對環境部"},{"start":11961.218,"end":11987.56,"text":"原本所提出來的一些政策我覺得應該是要有一些滾動式的一個調整好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言那接下來請翁曉琳委員發言好有請部長彭部長"},{"start":11993.098,"end":12021.035,"text":"是部長好我其實看了今天部長這邊所提的報告我尤其關心的是有關於就是在已經被公告的要嚴格控管的這空氣品質的場所的這個議題那麼我們知道其實依照室內空氣品質管制法第6條的規定現在是主管機關他可以綜合各種考量的因素來公告要受到更嚴格的空氣品質"},{"start":12022.175,"end":12038.127,"text":"標準的這樣的公私立場所可是在我們研究發現裡面有看到就是似乎高中以下的學校包含幼兒園等等的這個是排除在外就是還沒有在你們公告的場所裡面不知道原因是什麼"},{"start":12039.243,"end":12062.079,"text":"當時其實在推的時候因為這個是很久以前大概106的時候其實有去做溝通可是他們第一個是沒有這個預算因為做一次這個檢查大概要兩三萬塊而且他有一個專責的人員所以大部分的這種中小學他覺得他們的預算還有各方面人力不夠的確是有抗拒所以我們後來改用這個自主標章等於是稍微輕一點來鼓勵他來進行並不是強勢型的"},{"start":12064.08,"end":12089.469,"text":"我想這邊想提醒部長就是說因為其實為什麼要做公告一些公私立場所要受到更為嚴格的空氣品質的管制那麼無疑就是考量到就是國民的健康安全還有特定的族群的健康的問題那麼但是像是幼兒園高中以下的學校等等這些孩子們其實更需要乾淨的空氣"},{"start":12090.369,"end":12093.993,"text":"室內空氣品質必須要更加良好但是現在卻因為就是可能我們在訂定相關的授權辦法的時候沒有考慮到場所的差異性那麼卻又把他們排除在外然後只鼓勵他們要去推動這種自主標章本心認為其實這樣是不夠的是不是應該環境部要去研擬"},{"start":12115.091,"end":12142.527,"text":"各别特别的办法能够让高中以下的学校幼儿园或是财力比较不足的这样的一个场所他们也能够有一个更好的一个可以自主空气品质管理的这样的一个机制那么甚至环境部也可以去编列相关的费用去补助这些学校还有幼儿园然后让他们也能够这个有"},{"start":12143.562,"end":12169.128,"text":"他們裡面的這個空氣品質可以達到符合我們現在的要求否則的話我認為說最應該要照顧的就是小孩們就是年輕的孩子們他們的健康就反而是他們是被排除在外的但是這部分的話我希望環境部是不是可以去研擬相關的這個辦法可以因場所的差異而去制定特別的標準"},{"start":12169.468,"end":12192.566,"text":"好這個我們會努力啦因為最主要還是現在的有一些這個連續自動的監測就是他結合IOT例如說送風等等這個其實我們看到市場已經很成熟了所以我們會因為這個如果真的要檢測要花兩三萬塊然後他還要花錢去做改善其實對於很多的業者都是很大的負擔他們會很抗拒那現在有一些IOT的工具如果說"},{"start":12193.526,"end":12214.271,"text":"政府部門可以提供相對應的補貼補助那麼來把相關的這個系統建立起來我覺得是有必要的那麼接下來呢我還要再請教的另外一個問題就是說其實現在呢在部長就是您也曾經提到為了要管制移動的污染源所以鼓勵地方的環保局要劃設國中校園旁邊有個空品的維護區那麼現在我們看到已經有六個縣市他們在"},{"start":12221.553,"end":12245.367,"text":"一些中小學旁邊有規劃空氣品質維護區不過就是我們也發現就是這些空氣品質維護區就除了花蓮的中正國小他們已經有了一個清楚什麼空氣污染物質的改善其他的學校都還沒有一個具體改善的數據或是就不知道環境部到底對於這些學校的周邊的空氣品質有必要去進行追蹤"},{"start":12246.24,"end":12270.915,"text":"OK 報告委員現在大概有91個啦91個空民維護區不過學校真的只有只有中小學只有10個那現在呢大概有30個正在規劃當中就是說其實第一個我們優先是在工廠附近的等等的那個要先做所以這個部分是一激烈這個我要跟地方環保局一起來合作也要人力所以目前我們的確是跟有些這個所謂的風險區域的縣市環保局在討論當中"},{"start":12272.756,"end":12287.965,"text":"我認為說這個要積極的去做有些他已經設置都一兩年了可是我們沒有看到有任何改善的數據不要說空氣品質維護區畫在那裡只是好看的只想要符合法規上的要求但是沒有實際的作為的話就沒有意義這部分的話也請"},{"start":12288.605,"end":12308.004,"text":"部長要去盯這件事情接下來還有一個部分就是說其實我們知道有一些地方就像剛剛譬如說有些小學它就在工業區那麼現在就空氣品質監測系統所測定的項目裡面基本上好像是不涵蓋臭味對不對"},{"start":12308.905,"end":12311.727,"text":"錯位其實要每個人認知的錯不一樣所以其實錯位是蠻特別那個要有專業的人來聞臭屍來都判別的可是在你們的空氣品質的監測在測定項目裡面的話就是有關於錯位的部分"},{"start":12324.734,"end":12339.679,"text":"它是屬於得測定項目難道國外或是我們現在沒有個技術可以比較客觀的去測量有關於臭味的部分嗎因為確實我們也知道有些小學他們就在工業區旁邊尤其又在瀝青廠旁邊那聞的味道是非常不舒服的"},{"start":12340.559,"end":12362.445,"text":"這個部分的話我難道沒有辦法可以去克服這樣的一個檢測的難度嗎這個因為臭味是要人工有專門的聞臭師他是很專業的在做的確環境部有一些配合的但是例如說我舉例臭豆腐有人說香有人說臭所以每個認定不一樣可是你看我現在的那個有關於那個瀝青製成的涵蓋的物質"},{"start":12364.619,"end":12380.005,"text":"你看這些包含什麼本啊這些其實這些都是對於人體的身體健康非常不好的一些物質對那這個部分是沒有辦法去測嗎還是現在已經有在測了嗎多環分香進化"},{"start":12381.516,"end":12401.457,"text":"核物還有什麼碗類乳碗類多環分香碳氫化合物不好意思跟你們報告因為那個會有味道的東西它成分都不一樣好像有淡的它通常有味道有硫的它通常有味道所以你就沒有無差別的方式要去測這個臭味是什麼"},{"start":12401.917,"end":12425.908,"text":"很難就是不可能除非怎樣回到實驗室用那個支撲儀來跑那就會比較清楚說是哪一些成分那不然的話人的感官其實我們的鼻子的最低真的極限很零很低很低的濃度各種不同的話混在一起沒有沒有一個簡單的儀器可以來做這個我們目前都在嘗試但沒有還沒有成分是啦我認為說這個應該在科學上面還是有"},{"start":12426.728,"end":12433.274,"text":"辦法去克服的這個技術上面或是當然像部長講的每個人的主觀的感覺是不一樣但是還是有一個一般共同的標準嗎如果說全部的士紳都已經聞到哇濃濃的這種瀝青的這個化學物質的味道不能講說這個覺得說啊這個是他們的這個嗅覺太靈敏了所以把忽略委員這個只要有個案來申報通知我們都會有專業團隊去協助檢測"},{"start":12451.049,"end":12455.091,"text":"因為這個部分譬如說這個小學就在立青廠的旁邊它長期可能就在這樣的環境下所以可能更應該需要長時間的去常態性的去檢測而不適合就是說都是等待人民主動的去檢舉然後去舉報然後才來做這樣子的事情我覺得這樣的話其實環境部就還有地方環保局就不太負責任了最後我還要講一個議題就是其實在過去韓國瑜"},{"start":12480.246,"end":12489.97,"text":"院長擔任高雄市市長的時候曾經有提出過一個議題就是可以在校園裡面設置冷氣機與空氣清淨機所謂的雙機計劃那劉建國委員之前也曾經有倡議說在雲林的麥寮國小可以安裝新風系統其實我認為這個部分其實確實是有助於可以改善室內空氣品質"},{"start":12505.117,"end":12525.658,"text":"那不知道環境部對於這個部分有沒有什麼看法未來有沒有可能提撥相關的補助費用補助這些至少在工業區旁的小學們可以優先的去申請改善空氣品質的設備OK 鮑委員那個新風系統是劉委員為了左水溪陽城特別去爭取的這個是教育部在做補助"},{"start":12526.338,"end":12547.012,"text":"那這個剛剛有報告說他是未來是不是要再檢討那另外一個的是韓市長的這個那時候韓院長的時候推動的是冷氣機現在中小學都有了但是空氣清淨機呢還是要看需求啦不限的每個學校都是在供氣污染區但是如果有的話就跟這個興奉系統有一點類似是那我們會再來研議是可以就是綜合性的去"},{"start":12548.353,"end":12569.684,"text":"盤點到底哪些學校它是有急迫性的必要就像我們剛剛講的在工業區旁的小學其實看起來也不是太多頂多大概幾時間吧可以優先從那些學校來進行改善總之就是說現在因為我們少子化所以每個孩子都是我們的寶貝我們都希望他們的身體健康能夠得到最好的照顧那政府該花的錢還是要花"},{"start":12571.665,"end":12582.929,"text":"該補助的還是要補助 這個我們來研究一下 希望部長這邊可以特別關注這件事情 好 謝謝葉榮小林委員的發言 那接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝 麻煩請彭部長麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":12596.252,"end":12620.723,"text":"侯委員好部長好感謝周偉安排今天這是蠻符合時事議題的那本席剛剛也聆聽好幾位委員的一個質詢我就直接就教因為最主要現在最重要是美國的關稅產業衝擊那請教環境部有沒有針對我們出口導向產業的減碳投資策略做提前評估有沒有掌握所謂的受影響的企業清單"},{"start":12621.523,"end":12632.211,"text":"目前我們還是看這個關稅因為關稅32%你剛剛有講就32%到最後多少不知道但是我有注意到您剛剛講到一句話就是說有些產業會活不下去"},{"start":12632.981,"end":12661.595,"text":"哪些產業目前如果32%的有一些傳統產業的確是非常辛苦那不過我們也在做比對是跟我們碳費的關聯性到底是如何目前我們來看的話的確有一些但是不是很大是啊但是你剛有講到所以說本席現在是想問的是說你們環境部盤點的狀況針對說這樣子的一個衝擊那你剛提到是說有產業活不下去那甚至有講到轉型嘛福島轉型"},{"start":12662.642,"end":12689.799,"text":"那我想請教具體的方案現在演你了嗎其實這個最重要是要看最後關稅的談判的最後的結果所以目前我們說真的我們只能說去預你可能最後的衝擊是什麼因為最後每個產業是不一樣的那當然最早是半導體業那當然32%是很幾乎是大家都衝擊很大那部長那一天上禮拜五的專案報告或是說這禮拜二的院長的總質詢我想你有在現場嗎都在都在都在現場"},{"start":12690.84,"end":12707.202,"text":"記不記得上禮拜五的專案報告裡面院長有講到一個880億的方案那其中裡面我們那時候就講了會不會還有需要再盤點的部分院長也在我禮拜二總之選的時候就有講了就是說880億是一開始提出來但是有可能因應現在的變化"},{"start":12708.483,"end":12735.631,"text":"會再請各部會再匯集再提出那我也問就是說880億會是最終嗎院長好像鬆口了然後不一定因為我們要經過特別條例所以有可能未來下個禮拜報出來的特別條例的相關草案會比880億的規模更多對不對那現在我們環境部有沒有針對這個部分也譬如說我們現在盤點有可能的衝擊假設我們以最壞的打算真的到時候還是32%降不下來"},{"start":12737.051,"end":12745.307,"text":"那我們受到衝擊以及我們後續轉型的一個方案的部分有沒有跟行政院爭取額度爭取中"},{"start":12746.092,"end":12772.682,"text":"我們還在爭取中預計會要爭取多少額度現在還很難盤算的出來下個禮拜院長就醫院長的講法下禮拜就要把特別條例送到立法院因為報告這個委員會因為880其實他很早就定案了是 700億經濟部嘛 180億農業部嘛所以沒有環境部啊對 那時候本席現在在那我們是希望未來第二波或是第三波的時候我可以把我們相關的產業可以納進來"},{"start":12773.542,"end":12794,"text":"是 但是現在以特別條例來講應該要超前部署就是說我們現在還是要做好打算特別條例編過之後請注意喔 部長要有一個正確的觀念特別條例編過之後我們是訂一個上限譬如說那個時候易厚振興3800億但不是說3800億你就是一定要用完"},{"start":12794.58,"end":12802.267,"text":"如果說真的我們的景氣恢復之後3800億裡面有一些也是可以不要用但是我們訂個上限3800億那一樣的道理如果說這一次因應美國關稅的調整880億假設880億或說假設到時候院長提出來1500億"},{"start":12811.936,"end":12840.814,"text":"那可能各部會先把需求丟入讓行政院統籌送來到立法院因為正式要三讀通過特別條例也需要差不多兩個月的時間還會經過財政委員會以及各委員大家來做一個審查那但是你如果說現在沒有先掛號沒有先爭取你就沒有你懂我意思嗎對所以這才是為什麼本席關注的是你有講到有產業活不下去你有講到要協助轉型那但是我們的工具跟辦法是什麼"},{"start":12842.05,"end":12871.273,"text":"因為第一個是如果說產業真的活不下去其實經濟部產發署那邊他們是主要負責的那我們這邊是關注於轉型轉型的過程當中他們是不是需要各種綠色轉型的一個協助那這個部分我們也會跟他們一起合作所以掛號的部分也跟委員報告我們的確去掛號但是其實到最後的這個金額多少我們也在等行政院到最後是不是通知我們有沒有那個額度把它放進去當然我們是希望是能夠在這個領域部分能夠多幫一點企業的忙我們在爭取"},{"start":12871.513,"end":12890.568,"text":"因為環境部的預算相對少是所以我才會提到是說如果有一定要大力的爭取才有機會協助我當然知道說企業還是經濟部為主但是我們怎麼樣利用這所謂的綠色的部分來去協助企業轉型這也是我們的契機點對"},{"start":12892.389,"end":12913.782,"text":"來部長那另外跟你請教現在台版的碳邊境調整機制也就是這一個你在報告裡面有特別提到說目前都還在做跨部會的協商4月有協商過一次那現在到底有沒有施行的時程目前我們在等那個歐盟的細則因為目前歐盟的細則還是會讓歐盟先行"},{"start":12915.103,"end":12940.496,"text":"歐盟的因為歐盟是確定這個明年開始要收然後後年2027年2月開始可以去買那個憑證等於是說目前我們是緊盯的歐盟的角度那歐盟也很關心我們會怎麼訂那我們也跟他們報告跟他們討論說我們會跟你們一起走就是說我會參照你們的因為這個會減少各種的這個因為如果我們要訂一個台版的CBAN也是要通報這個WTO等等的所以這個其實是一個很複雜"},{"start":12941.176,"end":12965.912,"text":"因為現在包括說主要出口產業鋼鐵水泥這也是你報告裡面有提到的嘛這一些的業者也好相關的從業人員也都一直在關心我們到底說我們什麼時候會提出來或說是不是有可能有施行的時程以來回推做預作準備而不要變大家措手不及所以從您剛剛的這個回答我是不是可以以來推敲就是說至少是讓歐盟先行我們看歐盟的一個狀況我們再來做後續的一個處理"},{"start":12967.373,"end":12993.491,"text":"歐盟是明年1月1號開始施行那他的辦法應該在暑假的時候七八月的時候細節會有一些公佈那整個大的框架他已經很清楚了所以我們大概會照著他的框架走所以如果說我們明年例如說他今年已經開始試申報了我說不定我們明年開始就可以開始試申報例如說水泥從這個越南進口的水泥他就要必須申報他的碳排係數那我們還會有別的工具例如說"},{"start":12994.031,"end":13015.729,"text":"我們的公共工程建設要求說一定要有碳足跡那這個呢就是會保障我們國內做轉型的水泥業或鋼鐵業有追蹤的機制對我們現在是準備要這樣做好所以說還是要有預告期讓相關業者都有規則可循對一定的最後一個部分抱歉因為您也提到一個綠能人才培育"},{"start":13016.289,"end":13035.986,"text":"量能3500名一年現在施行幾年了現在今年是轉換因為過去像去年環境部大概是一年大概1000人而已培訓那現在我們改變方式跟28個大學合作所以基本上是3500是我們基本的拿到證照的目前有多少位"},{"start":13036.246,"end":13060.945,"text":"目前才剛開始所以現在例如說我們四月開班第一班就16分鐘就秒殺所以目前很快的大概會同步的大概28個大學都會陸續的開課所以我們預計年底今年應該會有3500人對但過去完成培訓的呢過去大概總共加起來沒有本席來部長來你可以回答嗎過去完成培訓的人員有多少位"},{"start":13061.499,"end":13085.653,"text":"部長來之前是環境部自己辦很努力的辦我們去年只有辦一千人部長來了以後改變方式就是結合二十八個大學一起來辦就是把這個量能提升所以我們以後每一年可以提升到三千五百人次不是 你剛講這個話跟部長剛講有什麼我現在會是說完成培訓你不能把部長講的話再重新再講一遍去年一千人"},{"start":13086.113,"end":13104.393,"text":"就一千人一千人好那部長本席提出來方向我已肯定但本席提出來的用意其實是說培訓人數一回事產業有沒有用是一回事這一千人有多少人是投入到產業做相關的這個減碳或者是綠能工作"},{"start":13105.174,"end":13133.048,"text":"有沒有追蹤我們部長來了以後我們今年跟104銀行合作一起做綠領人才的這個就業趨勢報告所以這個今年才開始開始進行所以我們那今年的第一班剛才講3500人這個今年第一班是4月26會開第一班所以這個以後我們會結合104這個調查報告一起把這些弄進去我們才會知道多少會受完訊以後會回到產業"},{"start":13134.068,"end":13158.763,"text":"委員就是說我知道你的問題過去其實上完課我們不知道他的流向啦未來我會管理啦就如同說我們畢業生我們當然希望是說他上了我們的培育課程我們也真的編列預算也真的培養人才了人才要盡其流嘛人才要盡所用嘛所以說是不是真的能夠到這樣的一個相關行業而不是他拿到了證照結果他不是做這樣的工作"},{"start":13159.735,"end":13182.614,"text":"培訓可能就浪費了我們也沒有真正媒合那尤其是我們目前有到底有多少的需求是需要這樣人才的現在在伊尼斯上面有兩萬兩千個工作機會可能年輕人所以如果說照你這樣子的推估其實三千五百位培訓完的應該都可以投入職場而且都是做相關工作嘛所以這也是本席講的有要做後續的追蹤"},{"start":13183.71,"end":13198.26,"text":"讓我們投入的每一筆培訓的預算以及人才都能夠真真正正的進入到相關的行業是可以做後續追蹤可以沒問題好謝謝好謝謝洪文凱委員發言那接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席我們還是麻煩彭部長"},{"start":13219.317,"end":13240.857,"text":"謝謝你剛剛花很多時間讓大家知道目前針對環境部正在執行一些業務尤其是對今天的主題在空屋方面還有在室內品質的方面做了哪一些的努力所以就實務上等一下來跟您請教那第二個題目就是相關於如何能夠研議引導企業資源有效落實到ESG的這個模式"},{"start":13243.098,"end":13269.106,"text":"我想很謝謝部長在上個月底也麻煩您到長庚醫院去考察具體的成果我們可以看到就是持續要麻煩環境部、衛福部跟經濟部等能夠持續精進醫院的節能減碳的政策來協助醫院藉由ESCO等等措施來有效落實節能減碳跟環境永續的目標"},{"start":13270.046,"end":13290.957,"text":"那第二部分就是要麻煩環境部來精進醫院室內空氣品質的標準來研議醫院周邊化射空品維護區的必要性效益這些的這個研議的部分那另外也針對水錯辦法的修正來請貴部輔導醫院落實污水的處理"},{"start":13292.978,"end":13319.732,"text":"當場看到其實長庚體系或長庚林口醫學中心這方面是做了非常進步那也得到部長很多的這些除了當場給予一些建議以外那也知道未來如何能夠協助其他的醫療機構也有類似的改善的措施那這部分因為當天比較匆忙那今天部長還有時間可以再做一點相關的補充嗎針對這個"},{"start":13322.094,"end":13338.772,"text":"結報委員那個我必須說很多的公立醫院相對的誘因沒有像長庚體系這麼的好所以說真的我們也我也鼓勵說長庚醫院是不是他們的行政的可不可以幫很多的其他醫院但是也跟委員報告其實很多的公立醫院他們其實"},{"start":13339.813,"end":13361.574,"text":"很多沒有那麼的積極啦有些部門很積極有些沒有那麼積極我們現在正在想辦法是不是有沒有一些好的方法讓公立醫院部立醫院可能都要積極的做我現在從這個長庚醫院來看的話民間的醫院的量能還有他的動機跟企圖心是真的比公家部門來得積極的這個是我們公部門要檢討的"},{"start":13362.628,"end":13378.555,"text":"好我想大家要共同努力一起來求進步那針對今天的這個討論的主題也要麻煩勞動部跟那個教育部的代表恭喜林玉堂副署長吉祥身份署長"},{"start":13379.395,"end":13396.474,"text":"那另外我們也麻煩那個教育部資格司跟國教署的兩位專門委員包括廖雙茜跟薛承佑專委一起來討論一下從下一張的這個幻燈片我們發現不管是在這個工廠"},{"start":13397.535,"end":13414.063,"text":"工作的場域或者是教育的場域其實不管是周邊的這個空氣品質或者是室內品質真的還是有很多值得我們持續來求精進的地方那這張幻燈片我們可以看得到在工作場域"},{"start":13415.023,"end":13442.822,"text":"目前的數據好像違規到這個有關於工作環境監測實質辦法第七條第一款規定的非常的少這個跟印象的落差其實蠻大的因為我們了解像我們現在市內的CO2是648原則上是希望超過1000嘛所以現在是很合乎規定可是我們不知道為什麼目前可以去查核到的這些違反的場次"},{"start":13443.662,"end":13455.449,"text":"就以工作的這個場域為主來看的話每六個月應該監測二氧化碳濃度一次以上可是這個量似乎跟我們所理解真的是有很大的落差"},{"start":13457.008,"end":13481.197,"text":"那這個對這個保障工作場域的勞工的健康其實是有一些影響那這部分不知道未來勞動部指南署這邊有沒有更好的方式去架設一個平台讓大家符合規範符合要求的這些廠家能夠據實的來呈報他們監測的成果這部分不知道目前的執行狀況如何是 各位報告"},{"start":13483.178,"end":13507.412,"text":"在委員秀這張圖裡面,它基本上是依據職業安全服務法那它的部分的話,它這個剛剛提到這個違規的事項基本上它是來自於一般辦公場所裡面的這個設有空調中央空調裡面的這個二氧化碳的一個剛剛委員提到六個月要測一次那這個違反事項就是我們去勞檢的時候發現"},{"start":13509.918,"end":13526.117,"text":"這個僱主沒有每六個月測一次是這個部分那至於這個實務上測的結果大概都是維持在700到800之間並不會一般辦公場所如果他沒有使用到其他的化學物質基本上都是在1000以下"},{"start":13527.307,"end":13549.773,"text":"所以能不能請他們能夠主動的把這些監測到的相關的數值通報到你們的單位或者是相關的單位一起來掌握到他們是不是有除了有一些違規的內涵以外那實際上到底他的這些空氣品質在室內是如何有辦法維持的"},{"start":13550.513,"end":13575.003,"text":"至少是要合乎到規定那除了二氧化碳以外其實像鉛、丙酮、甲烷那些更對勞工或者是影響更明顯的這個當然他需要長期監測才有辦法知道對於勞工的這個健康的影響那這部分如果能夠有一個主動通報的機制我們建立大數據的話將來處理起來也更能夠發揮他的效果這部分"},{"start":13576.264,"end":13588.544,"text":"將來是不是有機會請這個勞動部跟環境部共同來研擬看看這樣的平台的設置那如果這個平台的話未來我們是不是能夠也把這個訊息揭露給公眾能夠做具體的參考"},{"start":13591.146,"end":13616.394,"text":"報告委員因為過去是例如說早一天去做檢測那當然那個就要花一整天的時間那未來現在的像我們現在這個會議是這樣的數據其實如果經過環境部認可之後有可能就像委員這樣的數字能夠出來讓大家及時的知道但是這個我們會再研究一下如果準確性還有他的網路上可以弄得到的話我們很樂觀啟程有這樣的方式來推動"},{"start":13618.085,"end":13642.67,"text":"好那就麻煩兩個單位來演繹看看那再過來就是要有關這個校園周邊的部分我們也知道校園周邊空屋的管制很需要也很重要因為這牽扯到學童的健康還有他未來的成長那我們也知道全國172間的學校跟違規工廠相距其實不到500公尺這個是真的很希望能夠有效去改善那再參考"},{"start":13644.19,"end":13673.107,"text":"尤其是這個歐洲的國家他們針對於局部地區尤其在學校附近都有很好的一些方式在處理法國、荷蘭、英國等等他們很希望能夠提供及時的、空瓶的這些建設那如果是像瑞典的話他們還希望能夠有一個培訓的一些作為那還有部分的北歐國家設立綠色學校帶來包括植栽隔離、測量限速進行等"},{"start":13674.428,"end":13688.668,"text":"這個部分不知道教育部相關單位有沒有一些機制正在做這方面的精進跟我們報告一下就是我們教育部就是我們會跟環境部來做密切合作"},{"start":13689.088,"end":13706.249,"text":"我們現在就是依據環境部他的空氣室內空氣污染的一個指引的一個做法在我們第一個首先會非常重視那個源頭管理等到源頭管理的話就是源頭管制就是跟環境部就是說能夠請環境部能夠跟地方要求說"},{"start":13707.55,"end":13733.892,"text":"加強了稽查是不是有空污的一些污染源那把這部分給做好管制那第二個部分就是我們有一個新風換氣系統新風換氣系統這邊國教所等也可以來補充一下就是部裡會來針對這些學校來做相關的一些是不是評估之後是不是需要來裝設這些新風換氣系統來保障學童的一個呼吸權這樣子"},{"start":13737.914,"end":13761.303,"text":"那因為那個是室內嘛那這個如果室外的空氣比如說前幾天其實這個空汙影響非常嚴重那學校有沒有辦法及時知道這些空氣品質在這個授課教學過程當中就能夠及時的去幫助學校或者是引導學生做哪一些環境上的適應我們也知道比如說現在台灣夏天非常熱"},{"start":13762.683,"end":13779.793,"text":"所以呢為了怕這個高溫引起重休課或等等的措施就會有一些警示存在所以這部分學校有沒有機會跟環境部這邊有一個共同的方式來處理這個我們跟環境部有那個有一個受體"},{"start":13781.194,"end":13798.325,"text":"檢測的一個系統但是每小時會更新在我們部裡跟地方政府的教育局也都在這個群組裡面如果說突然有一些空氣惡化的一個狀況的話我們也會及時的通報地方教育局地方教育局他會透過校安系統來跟學校"},{"start":13799.565,"end":13821.673,"text":"對即時來通知他們比如說要採取相關的一些因應防護作為比如說門窗緊閉或是相關的一些比如說怎麼樣學童在回去的時候可能比如說戴口罩來保護他自己的一個身體健康這部分我們都有去提醒學校那相關的SOP我們部裡也有訂相關的一個規定來保障這些學生"},{"start":13822.153,"end":13848.399,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝大家的用心不過委員這個我會來精進一下因為這個的確我們台灣還有進步的空間啦我們會跟教育部一起來再來合作再來提出一個新的對策OK 好 謝謝那現在我們部長還有教育部這邊那另外最後一個相關環境部如果能夠有效的引導企業資源來落實這個永續經營的永續發展的部分我們也知道不管是"},{"start":13849.739,"end":13873.405,"text":"過去的CSR ESG到未來的SDG大型企業跟上市會公司其實都希望能夠對社會有更多的這些協助那這一部分這邊幾個例子我想部長也應該清楚就是有關的海委會針對這些需求他們成立了一個海洋保育ESG的媒合平台"},{"start":13874.225,"end":13894.591,"text":"在這個平台裡面企業端就可以從很多個這個海洋保育聯合項目裡面找到適合的合作機會然後民間團體還有地方政府就可以把這些他們的需求提到相關的企業讓他們去尋求合作夥伴那這是才今年在二月初的時候成立的"},{"start":13895.331,"end":13920.099,"text":"那現在是4月嘛那經過這些努力他們就發現從原來大家很喜歡做淨灘的活動呢開始改變他們如何處理這些海廢物的這些可能造成的影響那這個平台兩個多月以來其實已經初步媒合21個團體28個案正在做執行或者是已經完成了企劃"},{"start":13921.019,"end":13944.314,"text":"那相信這個對於證交所所屬的公司的治理評鑑來講他們就找到一個很好的接入口能夠讓剛剛講過的大型企業或者是相關的這些資源可以投入到這邊來所以他們一定海洋淨好生物保育棲地守護海洋素養等等的跟海洋相關的這些內容都可以處理進來"},{"start":13945.575,"end":13962.903,"text":"我想這是一個很好的一個模式那可是環境部所張力的更多不管是空氣啦廢水啊或者是等等的廢毒等等那這部分不知道部長你有沒有這方面的一些企劃或者是想法"},{"start":13964.254,"end":13980.775,"text":"因為環境部過去環保署通常我們是一個管制單位所以其實都跟會有點緊張的關係就是說我們要罰人家處罰人家制定標準那我們最近其實改變幅度蠻大的例如說我們在其實他這個業局是創造一個平台媒合的平台"},{"start":13981.215,"end":14009.514,"text":"那我們呢是實際上去做例如說重規司他就淨零綠生活十一住行娛樂那種大聯盟已經把企業都全部扣進來已經有一百四十幾家企業那氣候署也有我們每個私署如果跟產業有溝通了就想要公私協力一起來完成某一些事就是說把公部門的預算槓桿到民間一起來參與所以其實我們也有做但是他們是支援一個平台來媒合撮合我們就直接去做一些事情公私協力來完成政府的淨零所以一點點不一樣"},{"start":14010.775,"end":14039.062,"text":"我是覺得等到過一段時間成果之後再跟委員報告哪一個效果好如果他們這個好的話我們也願意來學習啦好啊 非常期待因為我們上次也去看過紀錄片種土那也感受到台灣真的很需要大家共同來守護我們的有了健康的國土就有健康的國民當然就會有健康的台灣大家一起努力謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝王振旭委員發言那接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":14058.019,"end":14065.624,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長有請彭部長周委員好部長好"},{"start":14067.254,"end":14094.768,"text":"根據環境影響評估法前面一條的第五條就是開發行為對環境有不良影響質疑就要進行環境影響評估而這個環境影響評估法第五條所列舉的總共有十項當然第十一項是其他中央主管機關所核定的"},{"start":14095.796,"end":14119.339,"text":"那光這十項來講,基本上所有的進行都會涉及到什麼呢?就會涉及到原住民族基本法第21條政府或私人以原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用"},{"start":14120.04,"end":14128.854,"text":"生態保育及學術研究因諮商並起的援助民族或部落同意或參與所以這個部分"},{"start":14129.915,"end":14158.262,"text":"就是就會涉及到這個到底要先進行這個原住民族基本法第21條的規定先經過部落諮商同意還是直接就先進行環境影響評估然後又有第一階段又有第二階段對不對這樣的一個會有這個到底誰先誰後"},{"start":14159.517,"end":14173.525,"text":"然後對原住民族而言哪個有利或是對業者而言哪一個有利因為要進行環境影響評估不管是第一階段或是第二階段"},{"start":14174.926,"end":14195.671,"text":"都要花不少的費用吧要吧報告委員原住民的法跟環評法是兩個平行的我們這邊是環境的把關所以如果是涉及到原住民的那我們就會請原住民相關的單位一起來審這個案子所以這個是我們還是最終的環評保護環境品質保護的這個部長不太一樣因為你這個請"},{"start":14202.898,"end":14230.18,"text":"原住民相關的機關 譬如說延民會去參加這個環境影響評估的會議他不能代表那個部落對 不能代表那個部落所以這個是不一樣的 那個只是一個相關的機關去參與而已所以這個部分 我個人的建議啦我個人的建議 就是說"},{"start":14232.589,"end":14258.551,"text":"這個業者你可以通告說業者是不是你要先經過部落的同意如果涉及到部落的部分不要到時候第一階段完成了第二階段也完成了結果後來部落不同意對不對那對業者是非常不利啊所以這個然後這個環境影響評估的期間第一階段第二階段部落就一直很擔心啊"},{"start":14260.311,"end":14289.4,"text":"所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼去共同的去處理如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意不是沒有這種案例喔對我就講這個蘇花安交通部的蘇花安蘇花公路有一段有三段要改為它名稱叫蘇花安蘇花改都已經完成了那另外蘇花安"},{"start":14291.041,"end":14298.591,"text":"在最後一次的環評大會之前呢所有的部落的諮商統一都已經完成了"},{"start":14300.487,"end":14326.653,"text":"所以這個部分其實是可以這樣子去進行的部長你認同嗎我非常認同因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民例如說原住民做好細部的溝通他們送進環評到我那邊我們來審核才有機會會比較容易過關因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽也可以來發言這是環評的制度所以我們都有考慮到這個系統所以例如說我舉例像台東"},{"start":14327.853,"end":14345.904,"text":"這陣子說要蓋陸域風機其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西我們也聽到了也看到了所以我們也表態了這個有關提到這個東海岸的風電的部分確實以這樣的一個密密碼碼"},{"start":14349.247,"end":14362.14,"text":"25個還不包含那個大武啊達了那個海岸喔那個如果包含的話就更多囉所以整個東海岸就是這樣所以這個部分第一個鄉公所反對"},{"start":14365.031,"end":14382.247,"text":"長濱鄉公所已經表達反對成功鎮公所表達反對當地的人民表達反對台東縣政府也表達反對所以最近都被質詢除了你被質詢之外還有經濟部經濟部長直接就說如果地方政府反對"},{"start":14384.141,"end":14393.724,"text":"我就不同意是那就還要不要進行所以這個部分的乾脆就所以你們跟內政經濟部跟環境部這邊要讓這個要讓這個業者知道啊啊"},{"start":14400.29,"end":14429.021,"text":"尤其是經濟部長說他親口在立法院說的台中憲政我反對他就不同意那就還要不要進行不要浪費任何的環境影響那個開發他如果是在地的居民有很嚴重的反對其實要過的機會環評委員都會縱觀所有的那我們最近看到很多陸域封建的案例都是附近的民眾的反對地方的反對沒有辦法過的所以這個是最重要要聽民意是最重要的所以我的意思說這個相關的這些意見"},{"start":14430.221,"end":14447.532,"text":"也請這個因為法案沒有明訂所以就請這個環境部因為現在目前是這個案是在你們在公告嘛對還沒有送進來完全沒有送進來是開發單位自己在準備當中對對對所以你們要把這些意見"},{"start":14448.913,"end":14468.649,"text":"給他們因為我們一般相關的這些意見我們沒有管到給他們所以你們可以給他們現在我們因為有大量幾千則的意見在我們環境部的公開網站留言所以我們都會給開發單位他們會知道會處理但是沒有的就是在立法院經濟部長親自"},{"start":14470.39,"end":14483.694,"text":"回應說地方政府不同意他就反就不會不會轉那個也要讓他們知道啊是他們我相信他們比我們更清楚我不知道好謝謝好謝謝曾天才委員發言那接下來請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請環境部部長謝謝有請彭部長"},{"start":14500.65,"end":14520.438,"text":"陳委員好部長你好部長在上一次3月17號一樣是跟您質詢我們討論到關於兒少式空氣污染的高風險族群也相對敏感那當時我就有拜託您說需要政府提出更多的保護措施同時我們也希望有跨部會的工作小組"},{"start":14521.178,"end":14543.842,"text":"那您的承諾呢讓我們辦公室非常順利的在4月9號我們已經邀請了環境部教育部衛福部還有專家學者一併召開內部的討論會議喔那這個討論會議上我們其實討論到非常多比較仔細的事情那也很感謝環境部的同仁在當天有一些很具體的共識讓我們後續在很多政策的推動上可以往下走"},{"start":14544.242,"end":14554.232,"text":"第一個跟部長分享一下第一個是我們談到關於工業區周邊學校的劃設這件事情因為目前呢在我們所謂空氣品質維護區現在目前現行有91個空維區那9個在工業區10個在學校"},{"start":14560.558,"end":14580.748,"text":"其他91個扣掉10個再扣掉9個其他都不在空污重災區這個我們日後再討論但是只有10個在學校這件事情呢我們也可以理解可能對於地方縣市政府來說他們的認定跟你們的認定標準不一樣或是他們的認定跟很多專家學者認為孩童是高風險高敏感這件事情的認知不一樣"},{"start":14581.508,"end":14596.381,"text":"但有沒有機會我們多多增加工業區周遭學校的畫社這件事情可不可以讓環境部積極的跟地方政府來討論到底是在畫社上有什麼困難還是跟社區溝通有什麼困難部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":14596.721,"end":14611.636,"text":"好謝謝委員能夠對這個議題主動來找我們第一個是我非常贊同委員的看法但是這個設定其實執行上是地方沒錯所以我們會可能要增加溝通的頻率然後一些方案讓他們願意來做所以這個部分我們會來積極來推動這個事情"},{"start":14614.158,"end":14631.154,"text":"好 那我們這邊其實也提出一個還蠻具體的建議因為地方上目前都在規劃通學步道這是為了確保孩子們行的安全如果要跟地方政府溝通他們覺得在這個議題上有困難其實我們比較具體的建議可以先結合地方政府的通學步道這件事情去想像"},{"start":14631.574,"end":14651.322,"text":"也許他們就比較可以理解到底這件事情可以怎麼做那我想具體的方向我們比較希望環境部真的可以主動的形容地方政府問一下他們相關的進度或者是有什麼困難跟問題需要你們積極的討論或者是找協助專家學者來協助這個部分就拜託你們再進一步考量那也謝謝部長剛剛非常正向的回應"},{"start":14652.142,"end":14678.465,"text":"第二個是關於控務法第85條我們談到違規如果對學校有影響的要從重處罰當時的從重的罰款是說加重0.1到0.5倍可是我們卻掉了這兩年的裁罰紀錄是零沒有從學校通報這邊來的那當時的困難我們聽到大氣司很明白告訴我們因為這個檢舉的主體必須是學校才會納入有所謂的學校受到影響"},{"start":14679.306,"end":14705.726,"text":"可是部長你可以想像一個情境假設我們現在立法院這邊是一所學校我們旁邊的工廠失火了然後有這個空瓶的問題老師們第一時間做的應該是疏散孩子或者是尋求相關的幫助或是請家長趕快把孩子們帶回老師們想的第一件事一定不是打去環保局檢舉對不對可能是周邊的居民才有想到要去檢舉那如果學校沒有打這種檢舉電話對於地方的環保局他們的認定就是學校沒有受到影響"},{"start":14706.667,"end":14717.449,"text":"那我不會說這是公務人員的問題我會說這是現行法規規範的問題導致於學校如果沒有打這一通電話我們就不會認定學校的空品有受到影響"},{"start":14718.84,"end":14738.978,"text":"這件事情我認為其實我們可以透過條文的改善跟調整讓這件事情其實可以促成那但是我們並不是為了要處罰廠商而去做這件事情是我們希望在積極保護而上呼吸品質這件事情上我們有更積極的作為部長你覺得我這個建議我們可不可以往這邊去努力"},{"start":14740.739,"end":14754.853,"text":"其實我們現在是針對即興的事件例如說隔壁失火會不會往我們這邊飄我們有一個預警的機制是通知學校當然委員提的建議很好未來是不是我們這個預警的機制順道"},{"start":14755.413,"end":14769.829,"text":"如果通過學校的話加重裁罰我們可以來研議這個事情就是空腹法的部分修正是不是重重甚至剛剛委員說的這個處罰的比例飄到學校是不夠太輕的零點幾倍所以我們是不是再加重我們可以考慮"},{"start":14770.87,"end":14797.416,"text":"加重的部分我其实现在还在讨论还在研究但是我觉得你刚刚讲就是如果它确实已经造成学校影响可是我们真的不必要要学校打一通电话才算数的话我们往这里演绎真的是好的方向谢谢部长那至于这些裁罚的金额也就是所谓的这个基金目前它的裁罚用途目前并没有放在所谓学校空瓶改善学童紧急保护疏散医药的部分有没有机会往这里去讨论跟演绎"},{"start":14798.116,"end":14815.589,"text":"因為目前那個財劃法裡面這種罰款是到地方政府所以這個就變成地方政府願不願意給學校沒關係我當然知道是地方政府所以我們也許來想一想怎麼跟地方政府溝通站在積極保護兒少學校空品這件事情上我們可以更有作為"},{"start":14816.67,"end":14842.706,"text":"好 那接下來關於談到所謂有害空氣污染的部分目前它的監測數字雖然都有上網公開可是說實話那個公開的資料它其實是比較適合科學家閱讀就算很多科學家認為那個都已經簡化過了精簡過了但是對於很多住民來說其實不方便閱讀而且資料也不及時它對於一般人來說是沒有可靜性的那我們甚至也認為其實相關的資料如果有兒少版就更好了"},{"start":14843.126,"end":14871.3,"text":"也就是兒少版跟一般人的閱讀版而不是現在我們認為已經科普化的版本那當時在跨部會的會議在我們辦公室召開那個內部的會議討論上我們很感謝大旗死友說會回去研議這件事情那我想這邊部長是不是也可以給我們一個承諾我們如何把這個資料可以更親民然後甚至有兒少版那孩子知道說今天我可不可以出去打球今天我可不可以出去運動這個空品是不是適合我出去做戶外活動的"},{"start":14871.98,"end":14894.786,"text":"好 這個我們來研議一下因為其實我也看環境部的網站並沒有針對小朋友的研究啦但是我們跟小朋友相關的那這個我們會來研究整個針對這個族群再提供一些服務出來那另外一個呢是我們會研議這個環境地圖把這個污染數據把它視覺化那委員講的能不能容易懂那不是學科學的也可以懂這個我們會來努力"},{"start":14895.086,"end":14913.98,"text":"好那包含還有耳哨的部分喔好那最後再講一下我們當天還有提到目前這個有害空氣污染的部分只有其中有管道排放標準而不是空氣中的標準其實很難呈現可是我們那天在討論的時候其實就有人提到應該可以呈現每一根管道歷年來有沒有改善的數字比較這個有機會帶回去研議嗎"},{"start":14917.122,"end":14939.321,"text":"好 這個我們回去研究一下因為不知道他這個數據存在 應該是沒有問題好 沒關係就回去研議那我們辦公室目前規劃是在6月或7月希望可以召開第二次像這樣子的內部討論會議所以我們今天才這麼積極提出很多問題那有一些有進展 有一些進展還需要一些時間我也希望在這之前我們希望有這些相關進度的報告 好不好"},{"start":14940.482,"end":14959.416,"text":"謝謝委員主席再給我一分鐘就好要講到綠領人才的部分綠領工作我知道部長你之前有去參加一個跟104人力銀行合作提出綠領人才就業趨勢報告那我們也成立了近鄰綠領人才培育聯盟這個培育課程我目前給予高度的肯定可是我們來看一下我們跟國際趨勢的對接在聯合國國際勞工"},{"start":14962.739,"end":14987.408,"text":"组织里面我们把保护生态系统视为是一个绿领工作很重要的内容跟定义可是在我们台湾的环境部培育课程里面其实没有提到这件事情那当然我知道很多环境部过往的同仁可能会认为生态这件事情是农业部的事情可是我刚要说目前在国际的趋势如果是这样台湾如果忽略了生态其实是非常可惜的"},{"start":14987.768,"end":15008.361,"text":"那尤其這幾年很多企業都在談ESG有人也開始談TNFD也就是自然相關財務揭露甚至生物多樣性也已經被永續評比機構納為評分項目我認為台灣在這件事情上不應該沒有這個進度跟相關的討論可不可以有機會在兩個月內給我們相關的規劃報告還是部長您認為我們剛剛所說的生態這個部分不應該納入我們國內的綠領人才規劃內容"},{"start":15015.746,"end":15042.178,"text":"包委員生態是我們有納入我們兩萬兩千人裡面是有生態的項目在裡面但是我知道這個領域真的在快速發展當中所以我們有請我們同仁是不是找生態的人因為我們這48小時是Basic的能夠額外Plus上去所以例如說12或是24小時加值的一個課程所以這個部分我們希望未來等到這個第一班開完之後後面到下半年能不能把別的Plus像生態這種把它加進來變成一個額外的課程"},{"start":15043.439,"end":15053.487,"text":"那我目前規劃兩個月內給我們相關的報告是可行的嗎?沒問題 謝謝委員謝謝部長 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培宇委員的發言那接下來請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":15071.067,"end":15085.843,"text":"請請彭部長還有這個勞動部職業安全衛生署的林益棠林副署長林副署長委員好保齡很高興剛才聽到你說你說台東那個美麗的海岸線不會被破壞啦"},{"start":15087.566,"end":15112.571,"text":"生態環境優先嘛對不對我剛才聽到一句話我覺得要肯定你說啊如果當地的居民強烈反對的這要傾聽民意要重視就不會成嘛所以我今天一方面肯定就是說台東這個美麗的海岸沒有被破壞的不只環境部部長已經明確講了經濟部部長也說他不會允許這個開發我們今天應該可以可以公佈啦跟台東的這個民眾跟全團民眾講這個"},{"start":15115.114,"end":15136.492,"text":"台東這個海岸線的這個路上風機應該乘的機率是很低的這是個好消息第一我跟他進一步問你剛講說要傾聽民意啊我經常要問你這個基隆市街嘛對不對我也希望你多傾聽那邊的民意好不好多去注意那邊一方面是生態跟它的這個環境如果它有污染那天我們有共識了嘛盡快去改善它好不好"},{"start":15137.413,"end":15165.503,"text":"包委那個我們3月26號已經派人去查了我們用這個介紹戒避者保護法我組成一個團隊我希望大概月底或是5月初有一個報告再給委員參考已經去查了已經去查了已經率隊去台電裡面查了現在要等一段時間因為我們已經要求台電提供相關的資料了如果他有隱密的話我相信因為目前我知道已經檢調也在查了所以如果檢調如果有會跟我們要資料我們會提供給檢調那如果我們有結果也會再跟委員報告"},{"start":15166.581,"end":15193.97,"text":"第一個盡快啦第一個絕對不允許在汙染的地方更重要的不要汙染造成當地民眾的傷害戴奧欽那個致癌的嘛好不好一定要做到這裡第二個當地居民為什麼那麼反對世界不是不能討論喔是他們反映很多意見嘛譬如說現在的郵輪台灣郵輪都是從吉隆港進來對不對你現在放了那個世界天然氣存儲在那邊會不會影響到他們其實大家知道嘛以前台灣每次有發生戰爭"},{"start":15195.558,"end":15204.547,"text":"都是從基隆港登陸的所以當地民眾有這聲音,你剛提的很好請聽民意,好不好請您副署長副署長恭喜聽說你下禮拜就要升任署長了先恭喜你不過,任重道遠我先來問一個很重要的事情很多地方政府"},{"start":15220.011,"end":15226.954,"text":"都在埋怨一件事這可能也是你上任應該馬上解決的就是這個勞檢嚴從2016年開始他們就在哀怨說快過勞快過勞了結果到現在為止勞動部還在說他們要做一些改善要支持什麼草案做一些9任的獎金的留任他的根本問題出在這個地方"},{"start":15246.348,"end":15269.245,"text":"副所長 你知道你們屬於跟你們勞動部給這個勞檢員訂的那個一年的KPI是多少跟委員報告 我們這個KPI基本上是因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員所以就會有所謂的工作量所以大概我們現在一年的工作量勞檢的話是200場次"},{"start":15273.24,"end":15292.752,"text":"你這樣賣頂到先我管這個等一下我會進一步跟你講這個連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改你到現在沒有改一天你上班公務員一天上班幾天扣掉休假日結果你平均一年的KPI你現在要檢查200件耶這怎麼做得來呢這幾乎天天都在勞檢耶對不對"},{"start":15302.759,"end":15327.646,"text":"這太高了啦我來給你看現在地方政府反應是兩個你定了這個勞檢勞檢員的KPI這麼高勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的啊結果你本身又過勞這不是很碰刺嗎這是第一個點那現在老實講現在因為我們人口在減少嘛很多地方又是用那個遠距的有沒有你很多地方應該可以做一個修正了那另外"},{"start":15329.301,"end":15351.819,"text":"我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼講我給你看一個齁這不是只有地方的這個政府在反應監察院啊來你看一下 我給你看監察院的調查監察院的調查啊 他說每一個案子啊每一個案子你要去檢查 你要做什麼事情第一個 你要先看他的出勤的紀錄比對薪資的這個情勢 這個第一"},{"start":15354.639,"end":15366.641,"text":"第二,你要跟僱主說明相關的法規第三,你要撰寫檢討報告的通知第四,你可能要開裁處書至少要長達一個月以上一個案子出去勞檢平均條約20小時這個你比較清楚嘛,對不對你訂200,一個案子出去20個小時監察已經調查了叫你們改"},{"start":15382.931,"end":15385.001,"text":"所以你下禮拜上陣以後"},{"start":15386.024,"end":15411.217,"text":"列地要認趕快把它做一個檢討做一個處理好不好謝謝委員關心這個我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞確實那這個部分我們其實持續在做一些不管是在工具面或是說剛剛講的廠市面怎麼去換算因為並不一定說每一位這個200廠市一定是勞檢有時候我們在做一些仿試的話也會把它記為工作量這個我們就陸續在做一些優化跟精進謝謝委員關心"},{"start":15413.298,"end":15430.851,"text":"監察院調查完之後他是有明確要你做一些改正的啦他明明確確的你看以後你單列的這個時數啊你會增加的工作量太大嘛所以他有時候你看一個月的那個工作時間加班數超過50點鐘超過50個小時甚至各個機關加班費有時候規定只能給20那你就違規啊對不對"},{"start":15439.673,"end":15459.084,"text":"你是強人所難啊 你導致你的這個你自己的勞工 自己的員工過勞嘛 那又違反規定嘛欸 勞動部去年底那個霸凌案啊引起很大的仙人大波 到現在都還沒有完全解決勞動部是很多人工作時間是過場的"},{"start":15461.752,"end":15484.224,"text":"不是只有勞檢員 要整體去檢討 特別去年這個事情一定要引以為戒不要霸凌自己的員工 好不好 不要讓他們工作時間太長後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班的時數嗎 打卡的 對不對這事情到現在還在查啊 勞檢員你在地方你又害了他們不只是工作時間這麼長 連加班時數都明定啦你就20個小時 結果你給了50個小時 這就違規了嘛"},{"start":15487.606,"end":15511.597,"text":"所以那時候監察院明確要求你們說你要嘛用什麼方式減少他們這個工作量這樣他可以做得更好啊不然你就增加人力嘛對不對另外一個他提那你對於他們的這個對於他們這個加班的這個方式啊你要有一個核實的一個專案加班最重要的事情嘛到現在都沒做啊來我具體來我現在今天具體的做三個要求好第一個"},{"start":15515.868,"end":15518.5,"text":"我請你中央啊 要去了解整個地方勞檢的這個狀況"},{"start":15521.15,"end":15545.385,"text":"你長久都在做這個事情嘛 對不對 副署長接著署長以後更要做你現在要很完整的 深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢這個狀況然後作為你後續編預算的這個參考為什麼要這樣做因為每年預算都在滾動嘛對不對 都在滾動嘛然後請勞動部你統計出來今年十月底跟去年一整年的"},{"start":15546.417,"end":15574.587,"text":"整個那個腦檢的那個狀況跟那個件數好不好好你這個提出來這個一個禮拜給我可以嗎你是不是再給我們一段時間一個禮拜上任那一個月啦好 謝謝一個月給我一個月給我這個資料這個就是OK然後第二個請你趕快提出一個具體的一個改善方案就是說這個KPI真的一年200件真的太多了去檢討一下甚至很多人都建議啊降到150 100多都合理啦"},{"start":15576.007,"end":15595.759,"text":"檢討一下這個要你在這個一個月內好不好檢討完以後給我一個報告不要再造成那個地方的這些工作人員真的是太辛苦了第三個請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式包括你這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低然後你要求地方這個勞檢員做了一堆那個他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題"},{"start":15597.13,"end":15618.86,"text":"你看他們還碰到一堆什麼不是勞檢類型的分類工作你還掉進去辦什麼說明會整堆的你整個都要納進去好不好整體做一個盤整好不好本席今天非常具體的三個要求那恭喜你下禮拜上任請把他列為第一要任好不好那一個月內給我一個檢討的這個方針跟改變跟改善好不好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":15621.448,"end":15647.54,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員的發言那徐姓委員改書面質詢那葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員然後王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何新淳委員那接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15654.619,"end":15682.72,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長有請彭部長姚委員好 部長好部長 全世界大概有超過200個國家共同簽署了巴黎氣候協定那從2016年就生效了目標是在2100年前可以將全球均溫控制在上升幅度大概1.5"},{"start":15684.361,"end":15712.427,"text":"五度那協議中也也有承諾就是很重要的一個氣候融資因為這是一個全球性的問題所以可能有一些比較比較貧窮的國家必須要有融資的問題才可以協助貧窮國家適應氣候變遷並且讓他轉向使用再生能源那美國"},{"start":15714.782,"end":15734.998,"text":"這個算是第二次退出巴黎氣候協定我想要請問一下部長因為他第一次是因為協定的規定所以他2017年就宣布2020年才正式退出第一次退出的時候對於我國"},{"start":15736.124,"end":15759.364,"text":"有沒有產生什麼影響報告委員那個時候其實減碳還正式準備要啟動當中所以我們那時候其實減碳也才剛要開始大概都是平的沒有什麼減碳的成果所以現在全世界要減碳大概都是過去這五年當中減得特別有效果那也就是說第二次現在退出"},{"start":15760.02,"end":15765.845,"text":"宣布退出什麼時候生效明年一月生效明年一月就生效明年一月生效"},{"start":15769.005,"end":15798.177,"text":"看起來是會不會對我們環境部推動淨零碳排的政策會有什麼阻力報告委員因為政府是對一個大的方針它會不會對全球有影響一定會有影響但是其實我們減碳其實也要看供應鏈例如說我會看蘋果或是我們的伺服器的組裝它會不會那些大廠影響到它減碳的目標那目前雖然聯邦政府美國聯邦政府有改了可是下面基本上"},{"start":15798.737,"end":15815.616,"text":"沒有一個地方改而且很多的州他還是維持原有的建立目標所以目前我們一直在觀察當中這個影響會有多大而且全世界還沒有一個國家說我要調整我的目標所以目前我們還是審慎樂觀啦就是就是我我我我"},{"start":15817.057,"end":15831.088,"text":"我覺得部長這樣子的回答好像還蠻正確的,就是說全球性的一個方向在走,美國縱使退出也不大會影響,是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":15833.79,"end":15857.846,"text":"因為美國大概佔了現在大概20幾%左右的排碳量那當然最大的是中國那當然啦中國的減碳會不會受到美國的這個影響整個貿易壁壘的影響這個還有待觀察但是這個我們就是一直在關切例如說綠色產業例如說綠能或是汽油科技的供應鏈會不會斷鏈這個是我們最關心的如果被斷鏈那減碳真的會有影響對我"},{"start":15861.179,"end":15869.729,"text":"對 就這樣子問好了就是說會不會減少因為供應鏈的問題嘛那美國退出了會不會減少企業投資減碳技術的誘因"},{"start":15872.927,"end":15895.77,"text":"那環境部這邊怎麼確保台灣的綠色轉型進程會可以導致因為美國的這個他們的銀行的確最近有退出整個國際的淨領的金融的相關的機構沒有再倡議了美國幾個大銀行因為他們要表態這個會影響到全球部分的綠色投資的資金的位移"},{"start":15896.311,"end":15925.539,"text":"我們一直在關注那我們台灣目前呢其實整個趨勢因為我們台灣要賣東西不是只有美國還有別的地方所以基本上我們到目前為止我們也主動的訪問很多金融機構等等大家當然大家都在看大家都在等但是我目前的共識是我們現在暫時不用改變但是如果真的全世界做出一些改變我們一定會滾動式的調整也就是說我們必須要先做好做好一切的準備對我們在準備當中那我問一下就是"},{"start":15926.879,"end":15948.249,"text":"因為還是會有一些產業受到衝擊對不對那碳費會不會緩增報告委因為目前碳費真的說得很少啦我舉例像中鋼一年3600億的營業額如果按照我們估計它碳費大概只要繳3億多所以1%這個會不會痛當然1%是痛啦"},{"start":15951.95,"end":15966.216,"text":"還OK啦這個全世界大概都會收到4、5%以上的幅度啦那所以目前會有一點點壓力但是就又不要給大家馬上變成負債的一個結果這個是我們的期待啦"},{"start":15967.409,"end":15995.04,"text":"所以我們會不會延長徵收碳費的輔導期目前我們第一個是說碳費的時間不會變這個目前這是我們的態度那第二個是不是在某方面的今年1月要開始算是算明年5月31號繳所以現在不是現在要從企業身上拿錢出來是明年5月31號所以我們還有很充裕的時間做出最好的判斷"},{"start":15996.906,"end":16023.197,"text":"因為歐盟的碳冰箭的調整機制也有可能會延後一年實施鵝豹圍沒有延後它還是明年1月1號開始實施但是是2027年就後年2月開始去買憑證就有點像是我們今年開始做明年要繳錢一樣所以它並不是延後沒有延後沒有延後"},{"start":16028.305,"end":16053.534,"text":"我最後問一個問題就是我們室內空氣品質的品質管理法大概從2011年就公布了大概有1600處是環境部公告的室內空品納管場所"},{"start":16055.423,"end":16064.809,"text":"我這邊有環境部所提的資料是近兩年來違反的裁罰數字零這個是因為大家做得好還是我們檢查裁罰的人力的問題"},{"start":16069.704,"end":16088.696,"text":"其實最主要以前的裁罰幾件大概都是沒有涉專責人員像最近那個拉拉破南港那個他就是剛成立沒有涉專責人員所以理論上他可能就會被裁罰了所以類似這樣的東西是比較多但是因為我們通常檢測我們也在跟同事講到有沒有辦法"},{"start":16089.797,"end":16106.868,"text":"檢討一下檢測的方法因為目前檢測是會有請這個外面的顧問公司去檢那通常有時候第一次檢不過可能第二次準備好了就檢過了所以這個我們也在思考說有沒有更好的方法有沒有自動連續的儀器來去做取代現在的神功因為那個要兩三萬塊啦"},{"start":16108.369,"end":16133.927,"text":"對當然法律立法的目的不在裁罰啦可是呢可是假如說假如說是真的不應該裁罰所以沒有裁罰這個是好的可是假如是因為其他我們的人力或者是其他的種種因素沒有裁罰這個說一個法已經公布了近兩年裁罰數是零這個還蠻"},{"start":16136.449,"end":16146.88,"text":"還蠻值得討論看看問題到底在哪裡的其實目前到現在為止49件啦那至於說其實113年也有3件啦那去年是應該是"},{"start":16148.123,"end":16170.913,"text":"去年三件,前年是一件,還是有,一個加起來是五萬塊其實他的罰則沒有很重,我們會來再檢討一下反正我還是要講只有法律,並沒有辦法完成很多事情"},{"start":16173.054,"end":16187.904,"text":"這個就土法不足以自行嘛所以還是必須要努力的去執行法律這個才是立法的主要目的最後我還是講一下剛剛陳佩玉委員大概也有講到就是中國海費的問題"},{"start":16189.465,"end":16213.421,"text":"希望部裡面這邊假如有足夠的經費或者是我們想辦法協助三個離島線看怎麼讓三個離島線的海洋可以更乾淨一點讓海灘可以少一點中國飄過來的垃圾這個我們從源頭管理是不可能啦"},{"start":16214.702,"end":16234.641,"text":"我們只能不停止的淨灘、打撈,這真的是一件非常厭煩的事情希望部裡面這邊可以主動跟三哥哥離島線,看有沒有什麼資源可以提供給"},{"start":16236.443,"end":16242.171,"text":"金門澎湖馬祖的縣政府讓地方來把海洋清一清"},{"start":16267.162,"end":16284.112,"text":"好 謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部新任職安署林署長"},{"start":16296.847,"end":16318.975,"text":"麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度"},{"start":16324.217,"end":16340.347,"text":"有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台"},{"start":16341.247,"end":16368.186,"text":"但是並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分"},{"start":16369.81,"end":16396.943,"text":"最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業"},{"start":16401.734,"end":16422.911,"text":"局限空間他基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域他受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面他就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是"},{"start":16427.65,"end":16450.497,"text":"我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎"},{"start":16454.505,"end":16474.667,"text":"沒有特別就這個部分 因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要你回頭看看啦 因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業"},{"start":16476.189,"end":16504.281,"text":"还有清洗污水槽作业造成四人中毒昏迷两人身体不适住院观察还有4月10号桃园下水道罕管内从事缆线检查作业一人被大水冲走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六石坪工厂两个兄弟从事这个伐积抽水作业吸入硫化氢中毒死亡总共造成36住院"},{"start":16505.041,"end":16533.538,"text":"發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的非常認同委員謝謝那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池伐機抽水時呢因為"},{"start":16534.278,"end":16551.265,"text":"吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池溺壁那治安署的中區治安中心呢14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確"},{"start":16554.196,"end":16572.036,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的實在正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧"},{"start":16573.478,"end":16588.672,"text":"那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會"},{"start":16590.984,"end":16612.391,"text":"好那這樣反應都很正常嘛那如果這樣的案例讓所有的這個回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括這個外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守這個安全措施吧"},{"start":16613.251,"end":16638.034,"text":"可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工"},{"start":16639.833,"end":16667.675,"text":"是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":16668.824,"end":16686.03,"text":"這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導沒問題那為什麼就是說因為"},{"start":16691.088,"end":16712.884,"text":"看来大部分的时候你们都是只会去劳动检查然后出事了就调查开罚然后就没了因为大家不知道发生的原因跟状况也没有办法从中得到教训所以大家不懂得预防所以同类型的灾害就不断的发生"},{"start":16714.526,"end":16732.721,"text":"接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛"},{"start":16733.683,"end":16760.771,"text":"好 存檔了 因為風雪還存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙"},{"start":16761.511,"end":16788.505,"text":"那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦"},{"start":16788.925,"end":16813.829,"text":"只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了"},{"start":16815.295,"end":16843.933,"text":"目前看起來好像是這樣職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞檢是絕對不過的因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是"},{"start":16846.174,"end":16872.75,"text":"剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次了不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫"},{"start":16873.936,"end":16888.508,"text":"跟維保我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟維保這個資料 旁邊的人知道嗎"},{"start":16894.656,"end":16904.36,"text":"我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電訊到現在好 所以你回去看一下 是好 那目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例如果重大職災的話 基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分80%或10%的資訊都提供給家屬"},{"start":16916.889,"end":16935.661,"text":"你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反應喔實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷很多這樣的比例不高嗎"},{"start":16939.217,"end":16961.99,"text":"確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看"},{"start":16963.941,"end":16979.474,"text":"講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊"},{"start":16980.054,"end":16999.853,"text":"好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data"},{"start":17002.682,"end":17013.607,"text":"委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開對那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好"},{"start":17023.188,"end":17037.476,"text":"我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎委員那就兩個月謝謝"},{"start":17038.797,"end":17060.557,"text":"好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助職安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員"},{"start":17066.345,"end":17087.004,"text":"那本日會議詢答全部結束委員蘇清泉 徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者"},{"start":17087.803,"end":17096.87,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆為人另有要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":17143.902,"end":17143.962,"text":"请勿模仿"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}