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11:44:10","會議時間":"2025-11-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第4會期第11次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。（11月28日）二、討論事項：本院財政、內政、經濟、交通、社會福利及衛生環境五委員會報告審查行政院函請審議「中央政府花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後重建特別預算案」案等9案。（12月2日）三、11月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.37221875,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.549093750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.38284375,"end":25.714718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.832843750000002,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.409093750000004,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.19346875,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.79659375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.657218750000006,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.17596875,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.86346875,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.63909375,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.852843750000005,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.93284375,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.721593750000004,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.70409375,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.71221875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.70784375000001,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.01971875000001,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.74096875000001,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":82.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.58346875000001,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.00846875,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.55659375,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.63159375000001,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.15409375,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.63471875,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.90471875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.97221875000001,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.48721875,"end":135.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.31784375,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.58284375,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.67034375,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.06659375,"end":153.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.54284375,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.23971875,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.02346875,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.74409375000002,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.03034375000001,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.92471875,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.51471875000001,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":203.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.77971875,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.11221875,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.97221875000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.44846875000002,"end":263.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.90534375000004,"end":274.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.07659375000003,"end":278.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.77221875000004,"end":292.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.25534375,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.31659375000004,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.88846875,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.93471875,"end":324.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.75659375000004,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.41846875000005,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.55721875,"end":339.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.18034375,"end":350.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.72721875,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.02221875000004,"end":358.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.06346875,"end":362.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.91096875,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.29971875,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.61534375,"end":391.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.96471875000003,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.64346875,"end":410.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.46471875000003,"end":424.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.04471875,"end":425.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.77034375000005,"end":427.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.79534375000003,"end":429.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.92159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院長我想在過四十天左右我國就正式要來進入所謂的碳費徵收的時期開始了那在這開始之前呢我有一個大災問想要請教一下我們院長因為我國並不是巴黎協定的組織的國家我們並沒有簽署相關的協定是我們主動的去盡我們世界公民的責任要做這件事情但是我要問的問題是說如果"},{"start":44.187,"end":67.895,"text":"未來的政策上面我們如果不參與會怎麼樣或者說未來政策改變的話對我們的企業或對我們這碳飛的徵收會產生什麼效果就是我們有沒有必要一定要加入那不加入的後果是什麼可不可以請院長說明一下其實我們在各個領域跟經濟的發展以及我們對國際社會的責任我們一直將自己視為很"},{"start":69.801,"end":96.957,"text":"負責任的國際社會的一個成員所以對於這種環境的保護也好各種先進的進步的這種思想也好政府跟人民都應該要循著這個方向在進行委員剛剛所說的碳費的申收我們在過去幾年一直做很積極的準備同時我們也劃定了時程那這個時程當然會因為這個外在情勢的改變我們會做一些基本的考慮但目前這個"},{"start":98.698,"end":112.957,"text":"制度上我們是朝向這樣在走實施的進程上面部長還會有精密的一些規劃待會討論院長為什麼要提出一開始要先問這問題因為我想現在的新的美國政府"},{"start":113.738,"end":130.319,"text":"宣稱他們不參與不玩了嘛他們既然不參與不玩了那未來我想台灣跟美國之間有很多的投資貿易有很多的相關的合作的案子對於台灣的企業在碳費的成本跟競爭力上會不會有影響這是我想提出來先討論說為什麼"},{"start":131.761,"end":154.039,"text":"為什麼要提出這問題一開始要提出來的原因就是因為如果我們跟台灣的這麼多科技廠或這麼多的設備商未來跟美國之間有這麼多的合作但是如果像以美國政府為例剛剛幫院長也提到了國際形勢的改變現在的美國政府他們沒有參與這件事情那我們還是非常在意這件事情一來一往之間會不會造成我們的成本的提升以及中間"},{"start":154.819,"end":178.341,"text":"在試算碳費徵收不徵收的過程裡面會不會影響到我們產業的這個結構因為我想過去這段時間的討論裡面包含了美國關稅政策的結果我想也影響到說包含環境部委提出了碳費到底要打幾折的問題我想這個事情對台灣的企業有直接的影響所以今天我為什麼要一開始先問這問題後續如果美國政策調整了"},{"start":178.781,"end":198.219,"text":"會不會影響到我國的國內企業對碳費的政策的制定的進度會不會有影響我會請部長來做說明我先向委員報告的是我們一開始對碳費的設定對企業來講是採取最低的負擔最低的負擔那現在委員說的我剛剛報告的國際情勢改變我們會考量"},{"start":199.019,"end":225.68,"text":"產業界它最高的競爭力那這兩個橫屏的考量之下請部長來做說好 報告委員碳費並不是為了要收一筆錢政府來做使用而是要企業真實的來做減碳那也跟委員報告雖然美國的聯邦政府可能會稍微有一點調整但是以我在這個參與這個國際會議跟委員在巴拉圭有碰面其實我見到了很多ICT的產業在美國重量級的他們都告訴我"},{"start":226.32,"end":235.545,"text":"他們持續的往前走甚至近年的目標2030年可能會提早來推動這個事情所以我們並不擔心美國政策上有什麼樣的變化"},{"start":236.158,"end":256.224,"text":"好那如果確定要做那我再提供一下其他國家的做法就是鄰近的包含說我們跟我們這個背景類似像新加坡或是日本新加坡在針對碳費減碳的部分的部分他們是因為像為什麼會特別提到新加坡是因為新加坡跟我們一樣共同的都有去跟巴拉圭政府來談要來採購相關的這個碳信用額度那當然"},{"start":256.784,"end":273.862,"text":"在分散風險部分 新加坡他們還同時做了這個加拿大跟密魯 也是購買了非常多所謂的碳的信用的額度日本同樣也是一樣 跟東南亞國家也是買了很多這樣子的額度那我要問就是說 那台灣在這件事情上面目前來講是不是只有機會 或是有其他可能性"},{"start":275.263,"end":291.626,"text":"有幸跟部長在巴拉圭碰到面就談到這個事情那台灣到底目前為止我們在採購所謂的碳信用額度的部分我們只能跟邦交國來購買嗎還是跟其他的國家即便沒有邦交但是在這個機制上面我們也有合作的機會"},{"start":292.948,"end":316.39,"text":"因為巴黎協定的6.4是允許多邊的樣態來進行所以目前我們不管跟邦交國或非邦交國委員提到這個建議我們都積極在進行當中那我們也非常理解新加坡非常的積極面對這個事但是新加坡的排碳量持續在增加我們台灣排碳量過去連三年都每年大概降2到3%所以我們的確會按照委員的這個建議積極來推動"},{"start":320.272,"end":336.384,"text":"我們現在跟巴拉圭有談,可能後續也跟其他國家,我要提到一件事情,我們現在台灣有所謂的探權交易所,探權交易所的認定,到底是我們國內自己認定,還是探權交易所這件事情,它有符合巴黎協定,它是可以符合國際的規範,"},{"start":337.685,"end":362.381,"text":"那如果後續 因為就我所知啦 探權交易所的認定這個目前來講 距離這所謂巴黎協定的規範標準還有一定程度的這個距離 所以部長 我們國內才需要說積極的去跟巴拉圭 去跟其他國家去談真正有符合巴黎協定合作的這個空間 去做這樣的合作那如果未來 比如說跟巴拉圭也好 或跟其他可能潛在的國家合作也好"},{"start":362.961,"end":379.661,"text":"未來國內企業在面對碳費徵收或是要做交易的時候他們是一定要透過碳權交易所合作還是有其他的機制這部分是不是要說明一下因為我想過幾天就下個月今天已經十一月底了十二月過完明年開始國內的一些產業也會面臨到這個問題"},{"start":380.582,"end":396.434,"text":"所以到底這個機制要怎麼運作是不是可以請院長或是部長來說明一下讓國人 讓產業知道一下這狀況好 謝謝委員我們現在的碳交所它主要是以自願性減碳為主但是我們現在未來會規劃政府的碳費它有部分可以去抵減"},{"start":397.094,"end":424.514,"text":"或是說這種各種的減碳額度我們希望有更大的量能夠在碳交鎖能夠發射那現在它的的確它的營業額不高但是因為我們的這個碳定價是從今年開始明年才開始收所以未來呢它的這個碳交鎖的營運是可以期待的但是我必須說我們還是必須要打通跟國際的連結這個是我們環境部在這個法規或是這個碳的這個這種regulation制度上面能夠在更精進的地方那我們這一兩年應該會有很大的突破"},{"start":425.074,"end":451.201,"text":"院長跟部長這個剛剛提到就是說碳交所當然現在的制度已經有了那包含說我剛剛提到我們前段時間所謂跟巴拉圭跟邦交國簽訂了相關合作未來也會納入相關的計算我的意思是說國內的企業比如說我們跟巴拉圭談了這些包含說採購它的碳權碳交易等等的國內企業要怎麼樣去採用這部分是這個額度是由政府認定然後企業去跟政府購買還是"},{"start":453.28,"end":479.849,"text":"認定之後納入所謂碳交易平台碳交易國內的碳交易所裡面企業可以自由的去採購這個是不太一樣的狀況報告委員這個還是要政府來出面來做這個事因為我們畢竟我們國家的處境是非常特殊所以我們會根據巴黎協定的6.4條然後由政府跟政府之間簽訂一個協議那我們會整個統一一個同胞然後最後是由碳交所來協助最主要還是企業需要自己來去取得這個碳權"},{"start":480.589,"end":490.809,"text":"所以企業要去找探交所做相關的交易對 但是這個整個法規或是整個談判是由我們環境部來代表國家來去跟邦交國來去做處理的"},{"start":491.172,"end":518.514,"text":"再來一個問題那一樣實務上因為你剛剛部長提到說這個要交由企業自己去所謂認購相關的碳權的問題那實務上當然各國對於碳費的這個收取跟他的認定的這個金額有不一致的狀況可能歐洲比較最近比較便宜因為前段時間打仗歐洲比較便宜或中國比較便宜那所以今天企業在採用碳費的時候他可不可以自己去國外去購買相關的憑證"},{"start":521.485,"end":549.416,"text":"環境部認不認還是我們國內企業要認一定要經過我們台灣的所謂碳交易平台他才能夠認定如果是我們國家管制的企業大概包含300多家就完全我們政府會來認定例如說但是我必須說我們不能全部台灣自己不減碳我們台灣要自己減我們按照目前國際的公約大概有5%可以透過國際的方式來取得否則其他的話他就自願性的減碳所以這個部分我們是很清楚的一定我們會強制來認"},{"start":550.717,"end":564.915,"text":"我們也避免有漂濾的行為因為就最確實啦就是我現在講的就是漂濾的問題嘛就是說其實國內有些產業他們可能會認為說我能夠從國際上從第三世界國家來採購到他覺得合法的碳權"},{"start":565.643,"end":593.651,"text":"那這部分環境部認還是不認這部分我覺得要我們會嚴格的要求因為這個漂濾的行為特別是拿那個垃圾的探泉這個其實我們過去也發生也看到過所以我們要避免這件事情實質的檢探是最重要的那我就回答問題還是要回答問題就是說我剛剛很明確想要請教一下我們國家未來明年開始上路的政策到底國內的企業不管受管制不受管制國內這些企業他在採購探泉的時候他是一定"},{"start":594.124,"end":596.29,"text":"要透過碳交易平台去做認證"},{"start":597.47,"end":625.851,"text":"還是他可以自己到國外去其他的其他機構認證的結果他採購成功了有買到我們也認還是一定要通過專車交名單兩種啦 資源性的減碳資源性的市場他怎麼做他自己的宣告符合國際的法規都可以但是以政府列管的例如說台積電他一年排放一千多萬噸他要做到淨零我們會管制他的目標那他就一定要照我們的這個方式他買了什麼或是做什麼我們都一筆一筆會來做確認"},{"start":627.517,"end":643.808,"text":"所以他去國外採購的不算嗎我們會確認一定要符合我們的要求的法規他不能隨便亂買會依照我們列的例如說白名單等等來做處理好 專長最後還是要拜託在這個議題上面因為當然我知道我們國際處境相對比較艱困目前當然比較大的"},{"start":649.853,"end":674.765,"text":"國土面積 雨林面積比較大的就是巴拉圭當然我們去跟他們談合作這個是很這邊要值得肯定但是有沒有機會在其他的國家或其他的地區如果有這麼大範圍面積能夠談合作我也希望說我們環境部跟我們行政院或者整個國家要想辦法通過這個機制去做合作要不然如果只有一個國家的風險相對比較高 萬一它中間"},{"start":675.445,"end":698.324,"text":"有什麼樣的變化我想對整個國內的碳費或是國內碳權的這個交易還是有衝擊所以未來有沒有機會或是有沒有計畫再跟其他國家談合作有 謝謝委員這個部分我們不管是邦交跟非邦交國我們有鎖定一些可能潛在的對象那我們也關注到像新加坡對這個非常的積極我們會不會輸給別人我們會按照那個方式來進行好 謝謝 謝謝部長部長可以先請回想討論別的議題"},{"start":701.787,"end":725.198,"text":"所以院長我想看一下我們這個國家勞動力的問題我想從2015年過去10年到現在展望未來10年整體的總人口數持續在下降當然2020年那看起來是近年來人口數最多2300將近60萬人的數字大概最高從2020年之後持續的往下探那我們看到未來10年預估國發會預估當然會剩下2200萬人左右"},{"start":727.899,"end":752.797,"text":"那在人口比例的結構上面勞動人口大概剩下六成而已剩下的我們的高齡人口大概佔百分之二十八然後幼齡人口佔百分之十左右所以整體來講國家的這個所謂的勞動力需求會越來越高那今天我要先勞動力需求越來越高錢的可能性未來可能會有引進更多的移工更多的這個產業的移工來幫忙國內的產業但是在討論這個議題之前我覺得要先解決現在的問題"},{"start":753.658,"end":777.844,"text":"我想最近很多新聞台灣大家最在意的當然是詐騙的問題那詐騙裡面其實有我們看到新聞也看到這個相關數據移工擔任車手或擔任詐騙集團的相關的幫手的問題也非常的嚴重合法移工裡面有占七成他們去參與了相關詐騙的工作那失戀移工裡面大概有兩成去做相關的事情我想整個台灣目前來講我們移工不管合法非法的"},{"start":778.664,"end":793.091,"text":"大約百萬大軍合法大概八十幾萬逃逸的大概十萬聯絡不上的十萬所以大概百萬大軍這些移工很多裡面三千多人去年三千多人參與了詐騙今年到目前為止已經八千多人所以數量是倍數的成長"},{"start":794.392,"end":809.253,"text":"那對於這些事情我想我們當然會有判刑會有相關的這個懲罰或是說判刑完復刑完畢之後把錢送回國但是這樣就夠了嗎因為我想這個事情對造成的是說僱主他也是有影響啊就是我今天聘了這樣的移工進來"},{"start":811.015,"end":825.623,"text":"第一 雇主有沒有義務要承擔責任還是是仲介要承擔相關的賠償跟保證責任不知道未來 因為剛剛提到人口結構的改變未來可能會有越來越多移工的需求在相關的懲處機制或預防機制上"},{"start":826.403,"end":841.633,"text":"我們有什麼樣的做法還是就這樣子逃逸的移工當然部主在經過相當的程序之下要負相當的責任是有的是逃逸的移工逃逸的移工再跑去做一些詐欺的行為那這個部分大東部有沒有進一步的規劃"},{"start":842.293,"end":857.247,"text":"那個跟文說明喔其實針對這個失聯移工的問題其實確實近年在這個發生率上面其實是有降低的我們如果從數據來看的話111年當時疫情的時候是比較嚴重的大概接近到6%"},{"start":858.388,"end":883.548,"text":"那今年我們看到今年的數據就目前雖然今年還沒過完但今年其實已經降到大概2.34%但針對逃逸移工的查緝我想我們跟移民署我們會持續的來加強這是在查緝面那在預防面我們也會盡力的來做預防面當然包括我們在一開始移工入國的時候相關的宣導他的權益甚至法律責任的宣導部長你有時間不夠打拆一下我今天"},{"start":883.968,"end":900.363,"text":"不是針對逃役工啦就是說逃役工當然現在政策有你們的做法我現在針對像這種詐騙的行為他們犯法有沒有人要出來擔保還是他一定說我就沒錢我服彎刑我就回去了頂多被拒絕入境而已嘛但對台灣這些詐騙的受害者"},{"start":901.044,"end":920.348,"text":"移工也好或是相關的引進的這個仲介團體也好他們有沒有需要負相關連帶的責任還是就跟現行法例一樣就沒有就是反正回去就好當然移工如果犯法的話主要的責任當然還是在移工身上如果他做詐騙主要的責任還是在他身上我們希望還是要有相關的擔保因為我們是仲介"},{"start":942.855,"end":943.195,"text":"好謝謝黃建豪"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}