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16:32:20","會議時間":"2025-11-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第4會期第11次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。（11月28日）二、討論事項：本院財政、內政、經濟、交通、社會福利及衛生環境五委員會報告審查行政院函請審議「中央政府花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後重建特別預算案」案等9案。（12月2日）三、11月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3303437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.26471875,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.86221875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.34284375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.08971875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.94159375000001,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.06346875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.32846875,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.75034375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.36346875,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.98659375000003,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.78409375,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.60471875,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.91096875,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.12096875000003,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.33846875,"end":322.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.01846875,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.84909375,"end":332.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.31221875,"end":342.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.57659375000003,"end":361.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.11784375,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.20659375,"end":401.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.75721875000005,"end":404.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.92971875,"end":415.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.45971875000004,"end":459.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.58784375000005,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.63971875000004,"end":478.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.91034375000004,"end":571.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.77284375,"end":630.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.4597187500001,"end":632.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.8603437500001,"end":637.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.27721875,"end":642.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.5972187500001,"end":644.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.63909375,"end":646.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.47846875,"end":647.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.2378437500001,"end":649.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.8703437500001,"end":653.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.93721875,"end":656.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.83971875,"end":658.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.29096875,"end":666.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.54284375,"end":668.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.68159375,"end":671.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.9934687500001,"end":673.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.47846875,"end":679.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.63346875,"end":684.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.7678437500001,"end":688.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.47596875,"end":692.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.41221875,"end":693.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.4753437500001,"end":694.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.65659375,"end":695.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.9897187500001,"end":698.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.47034375,"end":700.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.7990937500001,"end":702.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.72284375,"end":705.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.06409375,"end":707.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.4140937500001,"end":708.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.15221875,"end":709.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.86096875,"end":710.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.72159375,"end":715.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.3959687500001,"end":715.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.5647187500001,"end":724.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.39034375,"end":731.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.83221875,"end":741.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.5690937500001,"end"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農保等那我想先談一下就是院長非常知道我們很"},{"start":55.71,"end":82.558,"text":"驕傲的成就是我們台灣經濟超車日韓那總統還講到我們拼明年GDP4萬美金那如果我們仔細來看經濟成長的數字的話的確是不是只有今年大概過去幾年之內我們的經濟成長數字除了2023年之外其實都比日本韓國好這個部分院長應該是很肯定吧"},{"start":83.223,"end":91.691,"text":"尤其今年一二三季的數字跟我們年初的估計是遠遠的超過那我們今年如果樂觀的估計應該可以到"},{"start":93.277,"end":122.027,"text":"5到6之間我想這也是就是我們全國人民跟我們執政團隊非常的努力打拚但是在這個同時我也請院長一起關注就是社會案件持續的發生我選了幾件這一件是2022年彰化兄弟有三個人只靠弟弟每個月3700元後來有一餐每一餐你看到照片中真的非常讓人難過昏倒送醫"},{"start":123.587,"end":150.894,"text":"根据新闻的报道是因为他名下有三合院的主产不符合低收的申请资格这是一个另外我们也看到去年2月有73岁的妇女她因为人籍不合一所以无法申请低收后来流落街头露宿台北车站根据相关的严谨的研究无家者有进发程"},{"start":151.494,"end":172.631,"text":"因為人籍不合一沒有任何的福利身份如果要安置的話他必須要回戶及地可是他就是沒有辦法回去那現場的執行會卡關那這是另外一個例子那還有一個例子也覺得非常的難過家住台南的42歲蟹性女子她活活的餓死生前曾經"},{"start":173.291,"end":201.811,"text":"两次到超商偷食物那你看到这个报纸上的照片那事实上他有家人可是里长说他的母亲身体不好本身就无法承担经济重担然后他虽然有妹妹住楼下可是看起来家庭关系并没有什么联系也不知情所以很可能因为我们的社救法中低收入户的家户合计被排除我想这三个例子"},{"start":203.052,"end":224.842,"text":"就是要提醒說我們的經濟成長非常令人驕傲那也跟院長報告一下其實根據學界的研究我們需要擔心的是最低跟最高組如果把財富分成五等份的話1991年到2021年我們的財富差距是越來越大那這部分"},{"start":225.563,"end":254.769,"text":"也代表說經濟成果目前其實沒有辦法共享那當然我們民進黨政府在做很多相關的福利不管是長照然後公托還有教育部的相關的私立大學免學費等等都非常的重要那可是我要提醒的是社會福利最基本的甚至是社會安全網的一部分就是社救法那其實已經遇到"},{"start":255.029,"end":279.876,"text":"很大的問題這邊我整理一個數字剛剛我們講到日本跟韓國如果貧窮有兩種計算方式一個就是所謂的實則去占相對貧窮另外一個就是法定貧窮以我們台灣來講就是涉救法的中低收入戶我們看到的是如果從相對貧窮的話"},{"start":281.977,"end":297.986,"text":"那主計總數給我們的數字台灣的相對貧窮率是7.43可是我們的中低收入戶是多少就是2.4%如果你問國際的社會福利學者他會跟你說我們的貧窮線跟國際一樣沒有問題"},{"start":300.447,"end":321.715,"text":"可是我們涉救法設了太多的條件讓這些人領不到就像我剛剛跟院長報告的前面那幾個名下有一個主宅的然後母親也沒有辦法照顧她樓下的姐妹看起來並關係很脆弱所以如果跟韓國比"},{"start":323.717,"end":331.193,"text":"韓國獲得社會救助的比率是4.6%可是我們衛福部下面的中低收入戶的人口只佔2.4%"},{"start":333.47,"end":361.029,"text":"另外我也要跟院長報告我們看了歷年的數字學者統計的是衛福部自己的報告我們這個中低收入戶他的人數是越來越少比例越來越低明明我們的經濟成長越高對不對貧富差距越大可是不知道各地方政府或者是相關的認定出了什麼事我們符合中低收入戶的人口數是越來越佔的比例越來越低所以我想這件事情"},{"start":363.025,"end":387.036,"text":"目前的涉救法已经有非常多人讲有四个问题第一个是虚拟收入明明对方没有工作能力譬如台北车站那些依照规定就要用基本工资虚拟收入来算不符合实情还有我刚刚讲的家户合计已经四五十岁的人如果老母在的话也没有办法养他或者是家庭关系脆弱"},{"start":388.457,"end":414.649,"text":"並沒有實質養他還在家戶合計還有無家者的部分那他有非常多不符合我們兩公約認定的那大家認為應該要專章或者是有些國家專訪另外呢也非常多在協助就是貧窮者的說就算有一些人他領了中低收入戶現在的制度是讓他難以進去進去了之後出不來"},{"start":415.569,"end":439.148,"text":"因為他只要賺一點點錢然後他就會脫離這個身份他還不敢去賺錢所以沒有一個脫貧式的設計應該是鼓勵他給他一段時間賺更多的收入脫離這個身份而不是賺一點點之後他脫離這個身份那對他來講他會擔心有一點工作持續性的工作反而失去了這個社會救助的資格"},{"start":439.948,"end":458.536,"text":"這四個問題我要跟院長報告的是您還沒有上任的時候去年四月衛福部預告一個版本大家本來很期待陳建仁院長就承諾要休因為他是溫暖內閣可是當時的版本這四個都沒有解決所以被抗議之後衛福部就說回去從寧"},{"start":459.696,"end":480.842,"text":"可是從你到現在都沒有聽到下文你要跟院長報告一下其實剛剛這幾個問題美國韓國日本韓國英國美國日本美國都有非常好的例子就是美國是採實質收入韓國呢名義上的親屬不會影響他取得中低收入戶"},{"start":481.602,"end":511.022,"text":"日本 韓國 英國 美國都有無家者專法日本 美國都有脫貧誘因我們這比較的是日本 美國 韓國這是英國我們還沒有去比較北歐國家也要跟院長報告衛福部2023年請學者台大社工系鄭麗珍學者做的研究我讀了之後她已經給你修法建議法條都寫出來了"},{"start":512.022,"end":527.415,"text":"這三點他都有非常好的建議還有評估出你們這樣改了之後增加的人口數是多少那我知道過去才化法可能大家會不太知道我是要請院長說有些就是地方該負擔的"},{"start":528.416,"end":552.337,"text":"我們就可以用一個比較精確的方式來計算那不要因為這樣子阻撓我們的腳步那我推動這個已經超過1000天了從2022年那我也提供民間版的修法那2023年總質詢的時候陳建仁院長支持那後來我們祖榮泰院長不好意思這個年份寫錯院長也支持"},{"start":552.697,"end":581.181,"text":"然後衛福部長也在您的前一位邱院邱部長的時候也說會盡快推出新版本那其實我們賴總統他的競選政見就很明確要修社會救助法這幾個問題你看他這邊寫的檢討家庭財產家庭人口工作收入無工作能力等計算標準他當時的答案是三個總統候選中講的最好的"},{"start":581.901,"end":599.116,"text":"所以我想有這麼多人要求行政院就是協助不管是軍工教年金各種我真的覺得這是我們最該做的最基本的也最優先的我幫卓院長想了一個AI"},{"start":601.418,"end":624.139,"text":"我想我們非常的期待我們這AI內閣不只是人工智慧也能夠協助與包容assistance and inclusion那我想這是卓院長可以在任內做的就是不只是一個就是顧到人工智慧就是先進帶領我們前進的也能是一個協助跟包容的內閣"},{"start":625.02,"end":630.717,"text":"那不知道院長覺得我們衛福部什麼時候可以提出新版本呢"},{"start":631.476,"end":659.896,"text":"好 報告委員第一個經濟成長之後也加上整個物價的指數的物價的上漲是應該對最低生活費的標準我們全面的檢討也把我們這個所謂中低低收跟中低收入戶換一條線 劃在更實際的線這是第一個報告第二個很多再來是不動產的波價格的波動剛剛委員所說的一些妨礙阻礙了應該被受照顧的人因為這個因素"},{"start":661.317,"end":687.917,"text":"我們也應該適時把它提高讓它能夠在安全的照顧體系當中但是確實去年下半年我們就曾經在行政院內討論過社救法甚至今年我們也希望把它列為優先法案這委員都清楚的去年我們提出這個社救法的時候當然我們發現它所動用的經費是相當龐大我們那個時候正陷入到整個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":690.257,"end":708.682,"text":"這個修法的過程所以無法確定下來因此整個進度就慢下來了那現在也是如此我還是誠懇的希望如果我們有一套可以長可長可久的財政收支發分法我們才知道中央地方的財源個為多少我們就可以用比較長期的規劃來計算整個的經費的需求"},{"start":713.28,"end":737.047,"text":"所以設救法應該就會列在我們優先的法案當中提到大院來考量所以我想衛福部的草案應該是已經到最後相當完整的階段了跟委員補充我們在年底之前就會把我們在修訂過的版本送到院裡面不過就是如同剛剛院長所採釋的方向還要搭配整個政府財政"},{"start":737.475,"end":761.833,"text":"特別是受到這個財化法的衝擊之後我們能夠支應的部分我們在營養午餐委員會也遇到相關的問題我是主張就是能夠衛福部可以做出一個合理的分配如果地方財政增加的時候當然應該要地方支出哪些不足的部分還有我們剛講的戶籍不合一的部分就是中央可以"},{"start":762.774,"end":788.173,"text":"來協助那用一個合理的方式那不要因為就是財政的部分因為不管怎麼樣我們最後中央或者是地方就會有個單位就是應該要負比較大的責任也許是用等比例的方式那我想那既然部長已經答應說年底前副版會出來是不是那部長是不是可以承諾上一次那個版本那幾個問題沒有解決的這次都能解決呢"},{"start":788.972,"end":815.82,"text":"我們會有討論過一個新的版本那如果沒有像人籍合一這個問題因為在執行上還是有一點點困難但是我們從行政作業程序上去輔助讓他雖然人不在戶籍地但是可以不一定要回到戶籍地才能申請但是還是以戶籍所在地為計因為到時候還會有中央跟地方他的那個財務分擔的問題所以還是以他涉及地"},{"start":816.4,"end":843.789,"text":"的縣市政府來分攤這個會比較好那至於說另外有一個就是這個自報這個自成 自數收入那個問題那因為完全用自數我們也跟地方討論過在行政執行面上會有困難不過我們就採用多元折算的方式就不是一致的都以這個我們最基本工資來採記那用折算的方式來做一點這個調整 多元折算"},{"start":844.589,"end":864.364,"text":"那因為衛福部自己的報告針對這個薰衣收入的部分希望也能夠考慮就是自述那包含給他一定的時間甚至就是說日本有檢舉制等等我想衛福部可以多方考量那也聽聽就是第一線社會福利的工作者的看法好嗎"},{"start":865.245,"end":875.36,"text":"好那我們就期待你們年底前那個副版可以出來那個院長加油我們那個AI內閣一起努力謝謝謝謝范雲偉"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}