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20人一組 法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會來介紹到場委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場的委員有蘇巧慧委員還有王逸川委員"},{"start":2011.672,"end":2039.189,"text":"來接著我們介紹應要列席的官員有我們我們海委會政務副主任委員副主委還有國家海洋研究院院長陳章寧院長"},{"start":2041.278,"end":2048.362,"text":"我們行政院人事總處常盧夫人市長我們其他沒有二級介紹的列席代表我們請參院名單就不再注意介紹並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":2069.441,"end":2087.309,"text":"我們本次議程的排定就審查行政院函請審議的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例的一個草案那我們今天就只進行報告跟宣達那現在來進行報告每位發言時間"},{"start":2093.109,"end":2108.606,"text":"真的3分?沒有啦,開玩笑,3分鐘才用到每位發言時間5分鐘啦那我們現在請好友會副主委吳美虹副主委來報告"},{"start":2113.633,"end":2136.718,"text":"主席 各位委員女士先生大家好感謝大院關切跟重視本會所提的國家海洋科技營運中心的設計條例設置條例然後優先納入這個審議的排程那本日應邀提出報告跟說明也敬請各位委員會議支持不吝指導那以下僅就條例草案的制定研究跟立法重點來進行報告"},{"start":2138.138,"end":2160.683,"text":"那有關制定原油的部分為了補足我國船模試驗的缺口增加海洋產業的國際競爭力本會國海院在111年開始執行國家船模實驗室的多功能水槽建置計畫另外為了進行全海域的基礎調查提供海洋治理跟國家安全的重要資訊國海院也在112年啟動了海洋基礎資料調查船的興建計畫"},{"start":2162.103,"end":2183.548,"text":"國家傳播實驗室已經在113年的6月開工預計在116年完工新建期間必須配置專業的人才參與工程的規劃跟操作教育訓練讓籌建跟培訓同步另外調查船的部分100噸級跟300噸級的海洋基礎資料調查船已經在113年12月開工預計在115年完工必須在開航前8個月派遣關鍵的船員跟探測技術幹部"},{"start":2192.651,"end":2215.768,"text":"駐場參與訓練來取得國際安全管理認證因應國家船模實驗室跟海洋基礎資料調查船的相關工程的籌建以及未來運作的維護需求行政院在114年3月13日通過海洋委員會所提的行政法人國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例的草案並於同日含送大院審議那立法的重點的部分呢"},{"start":2217.062,"end":2240.482,"text":"本次立法透過新設國家海洋科技營運中心來統籌管理海洋調查船以及國家船模實驗室營運中心是行政法人具有提升我國海洋科技能力以及後置海洋科技研究能量等兩大目標以及滿足完整的船模實驗需求發展本土關鍵核心技術建構國家海洋調查船隊加速"},{"start":2241.283,"end":2265.634,"text":"海域基礎資料的建置 組織彈性 留任關鍵人才等五大的效益它的內涵包括船舶實驗室可以滿足國艦商船跟特殊船舶的完整船舶的實驗需求第二個在船舶實驗室完工啟用之後我們不需要再向國外去租借試驗水槽來進行各項性能的試驗那也可以避免一些機密的資訊的外洩"},{"start":2267.95,"end":2281.628,"text":"那建構國家的海洋調查團隊執行海洋的環境調查統整海洋調查團的資源發揮國家海洋研發的能量也確保我國海洋科技優勢跟永續的發展另外也可以加速海域的基礎資料的"},{"start":2282.95,"end":2302.032,"text":"建制來提升海洋的科技研發跟海洋產業在國際的競爭優勢那麼另外藉由這個組織的一個彈性可以留任關鍵的人才來凸顯這個專業技術人力禁用培訓以留任的優勢提升施政的效力跟國家的競爭力"},{"start":2303.493,"end":2330.578,"text":"那結與本條例草案對台灣國建國造政策的推動海洋產業國際競爭力的提升全海域基礎調查的執行以及本土關鍵核心技術發展的事項而至為重要那在條例完成立法之後呢本會會具以訂定各項的規章透過適當的監督機制以及績效的評鑑制度呢來達到這個行政法院專業化以及提升效能等等的目的那敬請各位委員給予支持以及指教謝謝"},{"start":2334.246,"end":2343.401,"text":"好 謝謝副支委我們接下來請行政院人事行政總署副任市長 懷副任市長"},{"start":2347.626,"end":2368.228,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早安今天大院司法及法治內政委員會聯席會議來審查行政院行情審議的海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案本總署應要列席自告榮幸那緊究涉及本總署業務報告如下本次海洋委員會是應所屬的海洋研究船籌設"},{"start":2369.81,"end":2395.327,"text":"國家草謀實驗室跟海洋基礎調查船等需要及後置海洋科技研究能量加強我國海洋產業競爭力來規劃以行政法人國家海洋科技營運中心因為屬於執行特定公共事務具有人才專業以及符合行政法人法所設定的目的所以設置條例中對於它的設立組織運作監督以及營運解散等均有詳細的規範以落實專業治理確保國家海洋的遂行運作"},{"start":2400.59,"end":2417.818,"text":"這個設置條例草案也經過行政院相關機關會審後予以審查完略 送大院來審議 敬請會議支持那草案條例在實際審核時 委員如果有垂詢的時候本總署再詳語說明並尊重大院審議的結果那以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2422.321,"end":2439.486,"text":"好謝謝我們機關代表報告完畢相關的書面內容請各位就參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始來進行詢問由於今天是"},{"start":2440.426,"end":2464.305,"text":"本會跟內政委員會兩會來聯席會議所以成員一共有27位所以本聯席會委員詢答時間6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間3分鐘都不再延長了那我們上午10點半截止發言登記我們現在請第一位登記這第一名蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":2478.988,"end":2483.45,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們就請吳政次好 吳政府委員早好 市長早 副主委好我想要詢問的 這今天我們既然是在審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例所以我想我們就是應該來搞清楚 講清楚"},{"start":2502.438,"end":2528.434,"text":"未來我們到底設置的這個中心這個行政法人到底可以擔任什麼樣的業務然後他能夠帶來什麼樣的效應所以我們才會同意按照這個方式也按照行政院版的這個草案那我們來進行這個設置條例嘛對不對所以副主委那第一件第一個的話就請你說明一下那我們未來這個中心最重要的三大核心業務或者是還有其他這核心業務是什麼"},{"start":2533.084,"end":2554.165,"text":"這個國家海洋科技中心設置那他的業務範疇呢在剛剛的口頭報告我們有進行重點的一個說明就是一個船模實驗室對船模實驗室的營運管理然後海洋調查船的營運管理那另外有一個是科技專業人才的學助培育因為這個人才是專業性的所以他"},{"start":2555.065,"end":2570.958,"text":"將來怎麼留任啊什麼都非常的重要所以簡單講這一個行政中心這個行政法人啦這個營運中心未來設置之後最簡單的講法就是我們要把台灣的船舶研究方式留在台灣所以第一我們設置一個自己的研究實驗室"},{"start":2572.159,"end":2578.444,"text":"第二因為我們造了很多自己的船所以我們有船隊所以我們也用這個營運中心來做經營嘛有實驗室有船隊然後當然有人才所以我們留住人才這就是三大的我們的目標好可是我現在看草案的第三條這個中心的業務範圍其實這麼多項裡面您剛剛講的這個主要是包含在第二項跟第三項當中可是你再繼續看"},{"start":2598.037,"end":2614.005,"text":"這些項目跟現在國家既有的一些行政機關其實業務上是重疊的我做了一些搜尋我可以看到現在的相關研究單位裡面有國海院的海洋產業及工程研究中心它就是跟實驗室有類似的"},{"start":2614.485,"end":2635.962,"text":"然後呢這個海洋科學及資訊研究中心也一樣是在做這個科研的部分那當然更不要說後面的船舶暨海洋的研發中心就是造船的還有最重要目前其實大部分的這個國研院的海洋科技研究中心其實也都有相關的跟目前我們在做的不管是實驗室船舶的相關的研究"},{"start":2638.924,"end":2665.155,"text":"或者是船隊的研發其實都是相關的那未來你這一些工作要怎麼區分因為我想這個東西是跟我們未來的人才調度工作重複等等都是有關係的副主委你這邊怎麼回答那個國海院剛剛委員這邊有提到的國海院有幾個研究中心那國海院本身它是一個任務政策任務型的這樣子的一個研究的單位"},{"start":2665.735,"end":2678.766,"text":"那他主要任務還是要協助海洋委員會因為海洋委員會是統籌協調整理整理的海洋政策我們先我們一個人只有五分鐘六分鐘所以你可不可以稍微我再問的是你的權責會來會怎麼區分"},{"start":2680.728,"end":2703.329,"text":"好 謝謝那簡單報告就是國海院本身剛剛提到的研究中心呢他比較是隸屬於海委會然後接受海委會的一個所隸屬然後做的一些比較政策型的任務型的這樣子的一個研究調查那另外呢在這個目前的這個海洋科技營運中心這個設置條例呢他重點在調查船"},{"start":2703.829,"end":2724.268,"text":"跟這個船模實驗室的營運的部分那另外剛剛提到像那個國科會這個國師院底下的這個海洋科技的這個中心呢他比較是跟學術研究就是國學術研究然後這些需求比較是個案性的所以這個權責上是可以做區隔的有些是比較政策"},{"start":2724.969,"end":2738.464,"text":"位階稍微高一點的然後有些是個案執行面的那我們的設置今天的這個草案是主要是for船模實驗室跟這個調查船當然也會受這個監督單位跟督導單位的一些指示來辦理相關的"},{"start":2739.926,"end":2765.106,"text":"其實我覺得沒有非常的清楚啦不過我大概可以了解我舉個例子來講的話過去這個經濟部加交通部合資成立的這個財團法人船舶暨海洋研發中心我們看到他的業務就是有船舶工程規劃工程設計這就是跟國建國造是有關係的嘛那你這個國研院下面這個國研院國科會的國研院台灣海洋科技研究中心是目前唯一有的這個科管科研船的單位"},{"start":2768.849,"end":2779.419,"text":"所以我本來要問的是說那現在我們新的單位出來了你的權責怎麼分因為這個權責我覺得會涉及到工作有沒有重複會不會有同職競爭甚至是統籌協調將來是誰在上面誰在下面不過你剛剛的意思應該是說未來這些現有的單位都會繼續做但他們只做政策研究的部分至於實際上的船"},{"start":2792.13,"end":2802.757,"text":"怎麼做 造船的部分 把船蓋出來從研究到製造 還有未來的經營就會都是我們這個新的今天的營運中心的工作所以您認為這個是很可以區分的 對嗎是這個意思"},{"start":2807.52,"end":2830.828,"text":"白話文因為我們的質詢其實很多民眾會看他才會理解為什麼國家在現在本來已經有研究海研究船了還要再加一個單位好那我們希望如果可以這樣的話是增強我們的國際實力船舶研究但最重要的我覺得是人才流用的這部分因為我們可以看到過去其實有很多國機國造國艦國造因為是單項計劃計劃結束以後錢就不夠了沒有錢不夠經費以後這些人才因為做過案子"},{"start":2837.49,"end":2863.104,"text":"訓練好了 結果沒有後續的案子之後反而人才會流到國家去這個經國號戰機就是一個最明顯的例子嘛所以我反而是希望 會會 委會可以向行政院爭取更多的計畫 經費 預算讓我們這個行政中心 既然已經做了就要把它做好 而且可以長久的用不然我看你們的預算其實比之前現有的單位都還要少啊"},{"start":2864.578,"end":2892.929,"text":"就是未來我們在規劃包括人力的需求上面我們現在其實都有在編估還有人才的職能的訓練內涵也都已經國海院都已經做了相關的一些的設施對啊因為我看你才爭取3點多億結果其他的單位加一加都比你現在爭取的還要還要多啊因為我們現在在蓋那個那個船舶實驗室跟駕船你就說你會爭取啦委員幫忙啦對不對我都已經在幫你爭取預算了你還沒有對啊還沒有接求這就實在是你看院長笑成這樣"},{"start":2895.089,"end":2906.813,"text":"好啦 那因為時間的關係 我們可以繼續討論那希望這個中心呢 可以發展起來對台灣的科研 對傳播研究 人才流用是好的 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝蘇巧克委員今天先禮拜 先要跟他說說來 接下一位質詢委員 我們有請程培宇委員"},{"start":2923.49,"end":2931.316,"text":"好 謝謝主席那第一趴先請海委會我們吳政府好 謝謝"},{"start":2933.871,"end":2957.883,"text":"好 副主委早我其實要問的跟巧惠委員也差不多不過事實上我們之前在教文的時候已經跟國科會討論過了那國科會也說在這個部分他們確實會努力跟上不過在去年的幾個大型颱風之後其實就有台灣自己在地的學者專家有提出很嚴正的關於這個海洋的研究這個資料給你看一下 來下一張"},{"start":2959.043,"end":2981.697,"text":"這個是成大地科系的劉老師他在第二段這邊他有說海委會所轄海巡署的單位服役中的船艦從大型巡防艦到小型巡邏艇有181艘可是卻沒有任何一艘可以執行固定的持續穩定收集周遭海域海洋基礎調查資料的海洋研究船只能取海水撈樣"},{"start":2982.597,"end":2992.965,"text":"那也就是說他們認為自取海洋國家的台灣在海洋治理上沒有獲取所需關鍵資料的必要工具可不可以回覆一下目前關於這個部分你們的推進"},{"start":2994.397,"end":3017.623,"text":"官委員報告今天的這個設置中心條例事實上我們就是針對全海域基礎調查船我們現在國海院有三艘全海域基礎調查船有三艘正在建造中那100噸跟300噸的在115年可以完工那另外有一個4000噸的這個是目前最大的這種調查船會在118年完工"},{"start":3018.797,"end":3029.889,"text":"好 那如果這些船完工之後是不是就真的可以做到剛剛這麼多專家學者所呼籲的海洋基礎調查研究資料不是只有載有海水取樣你們目前給他的規劃分工"},{"start":3031.095,"end":3052.578,"text":"為了這個調查船的這個建造事實上就是為了擴大這整個全海域的一個基礎的資料調查好那如果是這樣其實我其實還有想到關於人才的問題其實喬惠委員剛剛有提到因為法人的優勢就是他在禁用人才的彈性跟相關的營運上相對於公務機關是好的那目前你們在這邊的規劃方向可不可以跟我們簡單說明一下"},{"start":3054.236,"end":3081.799,"text":"我們未來會爭取大概這個中心希望有100個元額的這樣子的一個設置那裡面當然是專業的人力的部分會大概達到79人這個從船模的製造設計等等操演等等還有調查船的這個關鍵的幹部還有這些探測的幹部等等這個是人力的配置上面我們目前已經有所規劃"},{"start":3082.58,"end":3110.111,"text":"好 所以100個人裡面會有79人是做你剛剛所說的這些專業的工作但是我不確定你們目前相關的薪資等級規劃事實上在教育化委會之前就談過台灣在高等研究機構其實給的薪資相較於亞洲其他國家其實是低的所以就導致於台灣非常難留住這些高階的技術人才高階的專業人才我不知道在這個議題上你們有沒有相關的研究就是在留才的薪資彈性上"},{"start":3111.809,"end":3133.624,"text":"那個國海院院長來說明一下因為我覺得薪資夠好其實才是最務實的啦謝謝委員那目前我們大概預估大概如果說能夠順利明年15年8月營運的話那主要的一些主要裡面的一個算是營業處裡面的同仁的話那大概就是會有"},{"start":3134.324,"end":3135.265,"text":"聽起來其實還是沒有太回答我很務實的問題啦"},{"start":3150.362,"end":3177.183,"text":"我要講的就是這些高階研究技術人才他們之所以願意留在台灣除了是自己的家鄉他有愛台灣的心之外如果相關的福利跟薪水給得不夠好或是相關那個等那個他們的續薪的等級其實他們沒有什麼動力但是根據你剛剛的回答我覺得看起來其實還沒有回應到我們的問題但我們今天有時間有限就麻煩你們會後提供給我們你們相關人才還有新等的資料我們看一看可不可以為這些願意留下來貢獻台灣"},{"start":3179.024,"end":3202.672,"text":"貢獻給台灣自己專業的人才更好的薪資福利好不好會後提供資料給我們好謝謝喔那我們接下來談另外一個事情運動部成立在即我之前就有問過關於海委會一個問題我說運動部要成立那目前台灣是一個海洋國家而且台灣確實有非常興盛的水域運動可是也因為水域運動非常興盛相關的水域事故其實很多"},{"start":3203.152,"end":3231.423,"text":"但必須老實的說台灣在相關水域運動事故相關的保險相關的證照相關的監管上過去體育署認為不是他們的業務他們就推給了海委會可是對於海委會來說可能也不認同這是你們的業務所以當時我就發文請教你們你們給我的回覆非常誠實你們說運動部在籌備的過程當中沒有邀請海委會參與可是海委會自己勇於認識你們說面對全民運動政策的制定"},{"start":3231.983,"end":3246.49,"text":"在水域運動上海委會可以並且願意成為運動部在成立過程當中行政治理的關鍵助力這個部分我可不可以請你正面再回覆你們是目前為止依然是這樣的態度嗎就是願意積極協助運動部"},{"start":3248.111,"end":3260.636,"text":"報告委員答案是確實是的這個也是海委會的職責我想這個部分我們希望你們跨部會進行討論這個部分不知道你們有沒有機會壓一個時間還是說你覺得由我們辦公室來共同召開兩個部會的跨部會討論是比較適合的"},{"start":3265.849,"end":3292.903,"text":"這個我們可以尊重委員這邊如果跨部會先討論一下後續海委會再做一個更深入的一些的協調也是一個可行的方式好那這個部分就我們辦公室來召開跨部會的討論好不好因為水域運動這件事情它不管是證照保險相關檢理政策確實需要海委會過去的非常多的資料進行水域事故細節的調查跟討論讓運動部做一個非常重要在制定政策法規資源非常重要的依據所以我們會召開跨部會討論"},{"start":3293.703,"end":3296.971,"text":"好 以上這邊先謝謝你們接下來我要請任總跟全序部"},{"start":3299.011,"end":3327.243,"text":"啊 主席 主席 主席 讓我問一下一分鐘就好好 謝謝主席看你要問多久好 好 來 謝謝主席來 人寵跟情緒部勞動節要到了 不要緊張我們要問勞動節公務員放假不要緊張 不要緊張我們來看你們的法規因為我知道勞動節公務員放假行政院這邊有在努力可是我要講我們有非常多公務人員他們家裡都有六歲以下的幼兒可是一旦遇到勞動節放假這件事情他們的小孩就不知道要去哪裡這個現象其實你們一直都知道對不對"},{"start":3328.503,"end":3342.883,"text":"目前有希望怎麼解決嗎這個部分在公務員請假你們會說你們有家庭照顧假嗎叫他拿他那七天的家庭照顧假來放掉其他其中一天對不對因為我們必須還是要照現行的那個請假規則"},{"start":3343.464,"end":3360.86,"text":"沒錯沒錯好我們來看你們現行的請假規則就是這個你們說英式要請試假給七天家庭照顧假有七天如果他要請幼兒照顧假就請他用原來的家庭照顧假七減一他就只剩下六天的家庭照顧假那在性工法裡面的勞動節不需要上班所以照顧小孩也不需要另外請假"},{"start":3361.681,"end":3366.243,"text":"我知道你們其實在相關修法討論其實全序部跟人總各有各自的負責人總負責政策全序部負責法務法務的制定但是我想要問可是在你們今年下一張在你們今年四月剛剛公佈的公務人員請假規則裡面你們把幼兒照顧假條款拿掉了可是在去年的版本裡面卻有幼兒照顧假那今年為什麼拿掉我不知道可能是因為行政院已經在討論"},{"start":3388.832,"end":3410.131,"text":"公務員可不可以在勞動節放假所以你們這邊就先拿掉了我猜測是這樣我認為你們不是惡意為之我認為是嬰兒在討論好 所以下一張所以這邊我可不可以積極的拜託公務人員請假規則修正我們辦公室的建議是這樣可不可以在公務人員請假規則正式納入幼兒照顧假的概念有沒有機會做這個討論"},{"start":3411.656,"end":3432.52,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前請假規則就是還在廣納就是收集意見的階段所以各機關的意見還有委員這邊提的意見我們都會帶回去做一個通盤考慮好你剛剛已經說了都還在廣收意見那我的意見應該也是其中一部分意見那就拜託你們納入討論因為對於公務人員來說我們建立一個友善的生育職場從公務機關開始我認為是一個非常正面"},{"start":3436.121,"end":3462.823,"text":"的範例所以呢這邊我們辦公室會積極的在追蹤這個題目我再說一次對於公務系統裡面在因為跟勞動相關法規休假造成的育兒上的差異其實很多公務員已經抱怨很久了如果我們真的希望留下更多優秀的公務員在這件事情上我認為政府帶頭示範是非常非常的重要所以各自的政策各自的法規那任總這邊可不可以說一下你們的立場"},{"start":3464.246,"end":3488.548,"text":"他的立場我很清楚了 全序部說廣受意見討論中那任總這邊的態度呢因為目前也跟委員報告 因為還沒有有意見還沒有出來那等出來的時候 我想委員的意見我們都會在那個會上來仔細聊那你個人是支持的嗎因為這是委員會沒有個人的問題好啦 但是我認為廣大意見討論真的非常重要而且我希望往這個正向方向移動好不好謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":3491.431,"end":3494.974,"text":"謝謝陳培委員 接下來我們有請王國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 有請副主委請副主委副院長"},{"start":3512.237,"end":3536.082,"text":"今天提出這個海洋科技營運中心行政法人的設置條例草案在你們的書面報告裡面非常清楚的說他會涉及到本土關鍵核心技術的發展那為了要避免有關於國防機密相關的事情能夠不要洩漏啦不要到外國去其他的地方做實驗所以要發展這樣子的一個行政法人這樣的理解沒有錯吧"},{"start":3537.247,"end":3566.095,"text":"那按照這個行政法人設置的規定這些行政法人禁用的人員有公務員服務法的適用嗎我們目前沒有但是我們在未來會有一般查核跟特殊查核那所有禁止的人員都要經過查核第一個我們回答問題具體明確就好了啦第一個沒有公務員服務法的適用第二個你們在20條裡面有所謂安全查核的機制嘛分為一般查核跟特殊查核嘛一般查核由誰來做"},{"start":3568.602,"end":3594.25,"text":"內部機關內部會建立這個安全查核機制對一般查核有誰來做有哪一個部會來做啦海委會那特殊查核有誰來做一樣是我們機關來做兩個都海委會自己做你們在設置這個辦法的時候有沒有參考國家自動安全研究院設置條例嘛有有有國家自動安全研究院的他一般查核誰做"},{"start":3600.842,"end":3621.742,"text":"唉唷 他們的一般查核是自己做 特殊查核是監督機關做嘛那基本的法條的構造要搞清楚嘛我看你們20條就是從這個地方來的嘛所以我現在才問你嘛啊你現在規範以後一般查核誰做我再給你一次機會再講一次一般查核誰做監督機關"},{"start":3623.154,"end":3648.446,"text":"特殊查核誰做監督機關我們會跟國安單位這邊會再做進一步的一個協調我跟你說你如果是按照國家自通安全研究院來講一般查核是行政法人自己做特殊查核是監督機關做按照你們剛剛的回答未來這個海洋科技的研究中心一般查核跟特殊查核都是海委會要自己做是嗎確定嗎"},{"start":3650.583,"end":3660.169,"text":"想清楚喔不要到時候相關的執法授權給你們送來立法院以後完全不是這麼回事再給你們一次機會一般查核是不是韓委會做一般沒有 韓委會啦"},{"start":3667.987,"end":3691.25,"text":"對 一般查核是海委會然後特殊查核也是海委會特殊查核海委會還有我們會跟國安單位再進一步來製作所以你們現在要走的道路跟國家資通安全研究院人員安全查核辦法就不一樣是嗎我們會更嚴格啦會更嚴格好 那你們就特殊查核的事項列了哪些特殊查核的事項出來沒有"},{"start":3693.814,"end":3723.152,"text":"我們現在正在嚴定當中正在嚴定當中嘛有一個草案對國家自動安全研究院裡面特殊查核的事項包不包括你們未來要放在特殊查核的事項裡面有應該都有嘛我要提醒你們注意的事情是說國家自動安全研究院本來設置了這個辦法他已經有問題了啦他交給數位部去做特殊安全查核我看完他特殊安全查核的事項以後我完全看不懂"},{"start":3724.424,"end":3739.366,"text":"數位部有能力自己做嗎你是不是曾經在動員勘亂時期終止後跟內亂外患經判決確定或通緝有案三位結案者有密切聯繫有密切聯繫的數位部有辦法自己做我看就不可能吧"},{"start":3740.492,"end":3765.619,"text":"我看就不可能嘛因為現在喔你們要求的授權範圍20條的規定喔是全部交給你們讓你們自己去訂執法所以我就很擔心啊你們訂的執法能不能用規範的密度夠不夠因為這是你們自己講的嘛會牽涉到國家機密的機敏資訊嘛不要到時候執法授權給你們規範有問題"},{"start":3770.307,"end":3792.905,"text":"查核的密度有問題搞了一堆應該要接受特殊查核的沒有接受特殊查核成為共諜滲透的破口這件事情海委會授權給你們真的有信心做好嗎還是我們在立法階段的時候應該要考慮把你們20條的規定提升到法律的層次來弄"},{"start":3794.222,"end":3818.139,"text":"現在韓委會的立場是希望授權給你們你們會負全責還是希望本院在修法的時候把他拉到法律的層面上來請副主委報告委員我們還是希望授權的方式韓委會絕對會把關好所以如果授權給你們到時候沒有做好誰要負責韓委會會負責好非常的好第二個我要提醒你們的事情是我一直在追蹤我的國軍弟兄的防彈背心"},{"start":3822.956,"end":3845.702,"text":"過去這幾年一拖拉鼓不肖的廠商在得標從中國進不合格的抗彈纖維部來做我們國軍弟兄啊的抗彈背心這我看不下去啦自我們國軍弟兄啊的安危與不顧韓委會也有針對抗彈背心啊辦招標對不對是嘛最近是得標是哪一家公司"},{"start":3852.949,"end":3878.624,"text":"這部分的廢貨我再跟委員報告來 我秀給你看這是公開資訊啦就是連戰嘛 是吧這個是公開資訊啦 這個不是國家機密啦我在政府採購網上面就看到啦是不是連戰公司是吧 是是嘛 這家公司有沒有問題都經過政府採購法依規定得標的來來來 我秀給你看啦"},{"start":3880.865,"end":3891.768,"text":"這個沒有得標的廠商公衛跟聯戰之前在其他的抗彈背心的時候已經因為違標被起訴還被停權當然他在起訴跟停權以前剛好在你們得標以後差一個月"},{"start":3900.58,"end":3923.7,"text":"差一個月但是這個會讓我很擔心這兩家在調查局那邊微標的公司又跑到海委會那邊兩家同時出現結果又是連戰得標這件事情海委會或者是海巡署有沒有下去了解這部分的話我們政風單位在招聘的時候都有參與這個我們會持續關注"},{"start":3926.616,"end":3949.856,"text":"我最後講一件事喔 不僅僅是持續關注 請特別關注為什麼我會講這件事情啊 因為這家聯戰公司啊 他不是只有微標喔他之前在其他針對有關於我們國防部的抗彈背心的時候 他的供應商他的供應商從哪裡進步啊從中華人民共和國進步啊列職啊"},{"start":3951.51,"end":3964.398,"text":"被找到啦現在我在擔心的是什麼擔心的是你們海巡署給我們海巡弟兄的那一批啊 抗彈背心是不是有一樣的問題啊這件事情海巡署下去把關"},{"start":3966.462,"end":3987.442,"text":"查清楚好不好包委員我們一定會一個保管我們規範也有規定不可以有紅色供應鏈所以這個在國防部也有這個規定嘛就有紅色供應鏈了嘛又同一個廠商嘛所以我今天才善意的來提醒你們回去了解清楚一個禮拜之內給我書面報告可不可以可以好 謝謝"},{"start":3990.694,"end":3994.116,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢我們接下來請省發會委員質詢阿川了主席我們現在請副主委有請副主委委員早"},{"start":4021.241,"end":4043.833,"text":"副主委早我們今天就這個國家海洋科技的營運中心設置條例我們要進行審查了那這個剛才前面幾位委員也大概針對這個我們的這個設置這樣子行政法人的相關的這些未來的權責等等有跟你進行過溝通那我這裡大概要請問就是說我們現在你能不能說明一下我們過去這樣子這麼多年"},{"start":4044.733,"end":4051.874,"text":"我們現在為什麼我們海委會認為我們營運中心有設置的急迫性"},{"start":4053.356,"end":4073.4,"text":"急迫性在哪裡?過去我們是怎麼做的?為什麼現在有急迫性了?設置之後跟現在有哪些改變?主要是國海淵有兩個中長城的計畫一個是國家船模實驗室的建造,一個是調查船一個是調查船,一個是船模實驗室這兩項功能我們現在還沒有國家營運中心我們現在沒有這樣的船模實驗室我們現在也沒有這樣的調查船那我們現在是怎麼做的?"},{"start":4079.221,"end":4108.268,"text":"我們目前的船模實驗沒有那麼完整就是在一些學校裡面有船模實驗但是我們這一次建造的更完整包括奈海的性能水槽我們現在沒有營運這個國家的這個調查船那我們現在這些海洋資訊的這些調查是怎麼做的我們目前還是有像國科會的那個實驗院的還是有一些科研船但是我們這一次是全海域的基礎調查的這樣子的那我們現在沒有做全海域的基礎調查嗎有但是還是會受到一些限制現在是怎麼做的"},{"start":4109.188,"end":4123.831,"text":"現在沒有營運中心怎麼做的你這個要講我們才知道說那為什麼設置現在要設置這個行政法人是必須的報告委員那現在的話就是有一些預算那由國海院在執行那像我們目前執行的一個方式通常就是以委辦的方式委辦"},{"start":4124.492,"end":4144.406,"text":"對 尾辦的方式 尾辦的方式去租船尾誰辦 現在大多數是尾誰辦有些是測量公司 有些是學術單位國內的還是國際的 國內的那如果說是屬於要租船的話那租船的話大概會有一些科業船也可以來租用那如果說是屬於一些測會的話 有時候有一些是私人的一些測會公司"},{"start":4144.946,"end":4171.284,"text":"那如果我們未來有這個調查船的話那海委會本身就可以發揮這樣子的一個功能我覺得這個要講這個我們要對外說明清楚為什麼我們現在要做這個船舶實驗室是重要的為什麼我們現在要做國家自己的這個全海域的調查船這個是重要的這個是重要的這個前提成立我們才要我們才來說那接下來這要怎麼營運要怎麼營運之後我們才說這營運到底我們是要用公部門來營運還是用行政法人來營運對不對所以這個部分這個要先講清楚"},{"start":4175.146,"end":4191.775,"text":"那我們現在要成立這樣子的營運中心我們來看看其他國際的國家他們有沒有做我們現在目前沒有我們國家一直過去到現在一直沒有我們現在看看國外的這些例子包括美國美國他是在這個"},{"start":4194.67,"end":4221.466,"text":"美國是他們有一個國家科學技術政策辦公室下面設了一個國家科技國家科學技術小組委員會所以美國他是用公部門來營運這些事情美國用公部門英國呢英國也是公部門英國他設置一個科學技術委員會下面設一個海洋科學協調委員會他也是屬於公部門那臨近跟我們條件最接近臨近我們的日本日本他"},{"start":4222.711,"end":4247.407,"text":"原本也是設立公部門,原本在1971年就設置了一個海洋科學技術中心但他們在2004年把這樣的公部門的海洋科學技術中心他們把它改成行政法人在2004年提早我們21年的時間設立了這樣的行政法人這個行政法人叫做海洋地球科學技術振興機構這樣的行政法人"},{"start":4251.24,"end":4276.054,"text":"那所以這個我們也看剛剛在講這個急迫性我們現在看其他國家在日本他們的這些這樣子的大型的海洋調查船日本現在目前有幾艘你們知道嗎大型的有七艘大型的有七艘中國有幾艘中國的大概六十艘以上六十艘以上那我們台灣呢"},{"start":4277.236,"end":4293.93,"text":"目前沒有嗎?台灣現在目前就是以科學服務的,科研服務的話有海野,國科會下面有4艘國科會下面有4艘?對,還有農業服務也有那我們現在急迫,我們現在在進行我們已經進行招標,現在在做的是幾噸的?我們現在100噸300,未來還有4000未來有4000喔我現在"},{"start":4301.629,"end":4330.256,"text":"這個部分我馬上跟你討論但我在這個之前我們回到前面的問題剛才其他委員也有問到啦我們現在有國海院剛剛很多人關心我們現在目前的這個這個國海院跟我們的這個營運未來要設置的營運中心他的全責我看起來全責大致上是重疊真正特殊的就是船舶實驗室跟調查船的營運嘛對不對只有這兩個其他大部分是特殊那我想請問一下副主委我們現在這個我們目前的這個國海院"},{"start":4331.189,"end":4347.802,"text":"他是我們海委會下屬的三級機關嗎?對,他的依據是什麼?海外組織法第幾條?國海院的組織法第幾條?第一條第一條的內容是什麼?"},{"start":4361.741,"end":4387.737,"text":"剛剛講你們海委會的組織法海委會組織法的這個第五條裡面本會之次級機關沒有國海沒有國海院只有兩個一個海巡署一個海洋保育署你現在講這個這個國家海洋研究院組織法的第一條他說海洋委員會為辦理海洋政策規劃海洋資源調度海洋沒有提到我們海委會啊"},{"start":4392.11,"end":4400.394,"text":"海洋委員會未辦理所以他是我們的三級機關嗎是嗎我們一直都這樣定位我知道你們是這樣定位的但是我們的組織辦法是不是應該調整"},{"start":4408.956,"end":4432.392,"text":"是那個報告委員喔我們在那個行政院主改以後只要是屬於70個局屬的部分他才會他的部會組織法會定說本部或本委員會所屬的次級機構是什麼什麼什麼什麼那麼因為海聯院他是屬於我們中央行政機關組織法上面的研究試驗等等的這些單位那這個部分在我們體系上先講到這裡這部分我認為我們的這個組織條例應該要做調整這第一個第二個我們未來這個副主委"},{"start":4439.456,"end":4463.558,"text":"我們現在剛剛有講到我們現在100噸跟300噸現在已經發包 已經招標 現在正在興建當中嘛那未來我們成立這個營運中心之後我們現在的這個包括它的招標 包括禮約執行都是由都是由這個國海院在做那未來它船舶完成之後它會用什麼方式來交到營運中心呢它會直接移交嗎 還是會委託還是由國海院委託行政法人來營運呢"},{"start":4467.082,"end":4483.709,"text":"目前的一個方式可能會以無償借用的一個方式給用借用的對 無償借用的一個方式給行政法人借用給行政法人來營運來營運 對所以他未來他的這個權利還是在還是在海委會在海委會在海委會在監督"},{"start":4484.97,"end":4500.597,"text":"借用也不是委託而是借用用借用的方式所有權還是掛在海委會這個很特別因為我看到現在我沒有看到說有所謂借用的方式來營運這部分我進一步了解我們營運的相關法規最後"},{"start":4504.779,"end":4522.873,"text":"我們這個這個目前的這個條例齁我這樣隨便盤點齁我目前的條例草案裡面齁我隨便盤點就有就有大概有七項以上的法未來的這個相關授權的辦法就在我們的草案裡面這授權我們未來主管機關要訂定辦法就是說我們今天如果通過了這個通過了這個這個設置條例之後我們還有"},{"start":4525.555,"end":4546.69,"text":"至少七樣以上我現在隨便盤點大概就有七條以上的授權授權我們還會為了要制定相關的辦法這些辦法制定好我們準備好了嗎我們來得及在明年八月八月之前完成嗎我們現在雲童部都在研擬了那我們這樣的體力也是參照其他的行政法人我知道我現在來得及嗎已經在研擬了已經在研擬了因為相當多了我們我看到規劃了"},{"start":4547.791,"end":4567.498,"text":"有相關的組織設施條例裡面授權這麼多的定定辦法的條例並不多我們這個有至少七項以上七個條文以上授權你們制定辦法這部分我希望說你們能夠同步的來完成能夠趕上你們計畫中的明年八月的營運好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝省發會委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":4586.499,"end":4610.447,"text":"主席好有請副主委副主委委員好副主委好我想請教一下我們目前包括中央研究院國立成功大學海洋大學以及交通部的航港級等單位都有海洋調查"},{"start":4611.887,"end":4615.771,"text":"就是模擬的設備所以請教一下我們海科中心與這些單位的功能積分還有協調分工是什麼是否有進行資源盤點的報告避免重複投資是否有能提供的具體的資料"},{"start":4634.329,"end":4663.12,"text":"各位報告就是我們事實上都有去盤點不會有資源重疊的一個狀況那跟那個國食院下設的這個海科中心事實上他們我剛剛有報告他們是屬於比較學術研究或學術研究型的個案執行的部分那我們這個設置中心國家海航科技營運中心未來主要要這個船模實驗室還有調查船整體的一個營運這樣子的一個管理等等的主要的是這個部分的功能"},{"start":4663.72,"end":4683.855,"text":"那現在各單位有的這些船舶我們其實上也接近一些國家在整合海洋調查研究船隊這樣的一個經驗我們也會建立這個科研船的合作平台跟資源機制這個是都有在做規劃好你在講這樣子你看我上次的PPT是不是打臉你自己呢"},{"start":4685.731,"end":4701.02,"text":"你講的東西是不是你說很平均但是這個資料是不是打臉你自己70%這樣是不是你講的是不是跟我們看到你們的資料是這樣"},{"start":4704.785,"end":4728.576,"text":"請問一下那個70%這個資料我不曉得委員是從哪邊來不過我們自己這邊的一個調查裡面事實上目前現有的一個科研船確實在科研單位的需求都不夠的是依據國科會的資料百分之百是依據國科會的資料因為國科會它的運作方式是由各學術單位會來提出申請那確實現在目前申請的所以你們的誇不會就是說這樣子誇的嗎"},{"start":4729.716,"end":4753.482,"text":"他們做他們的我們做我們的我們不知道他們怎麼樣我只有知道我的就好我們知道他們的我的意思是說國科會它是針對的是所謂的學術型的一個個人學者的一個計畫的一個申請再去做傳奇的一個安排所以我才要說你們有沒有盤點有沒有就是說資源投資的還有資源的重疊"},{"start":4754.922,"end":4779.586,"text":"這樣子每一個人做都一樣的話 我們的政府的錢我們人民的錢 那不是隨便花嗎所以說我希望就是要說提供具體的資料給我但是我們看到的是這樣 那是你們講的又不一樣是不是就很直接打臉了 對不對現在的研究船企那個是不足的對 就整個吊航船的那個能量能是不夠的"},{"start":4780.867,"end":4807.582,"text":"所以說你們就是要去跟就是國科會來去做跨部會來去研究來去整合來看要怎麼樣去盤點我覺得才達到我們要設立這個好意這個中心因為我們海科中心採的是行政法人模式但是目前要提升營運的彈性但是過去如就是國研院"},{"start":4808.783,"end":4820.568,"text":"支車會也出現法人化後的效率未見提升所以財務與人事的模式也是很模糊等的問題所以要請教我們本中心的營運的績效評估還有機制上如何設計還有第二個是否有年度的KBI有哪個部會負責職責監督"},{"start":4835.174,"end":4844.369,"text":"還有為拔成這樣的效果所以我們要如何有進廠的或重整的機制這個部分有沒有"},{"start":4845.487,"end":4868.107,"text":"蔣委員報告 未來的監督機關就是海洋委員會那我們剛剛委員提到我們要的是機制還有一個一個設計的部分讓我們更清楚因為你要設中心大家都認同但是要讓人民讓說大家覺得這個對大家是好的我們希望就是完整"},{"start":4869.288,"end":4886.229,"text":"謝謝委員提醒那這些部分我們現在都在草擬相關的執法當中包括我剛剛提到的這些監督的機制啦 制度啦當然也會借鑒其他法人的一些的曾經營運的一些的狀況所以我們是可以參考說我們日本海上的"},{"start":4887.999,"end":4906.675,"text":"技術安全研究所每年發表的年度的績效報告依據這樣子的貢獻產官寫就是產業應用與國際合作的上方的評估所以我們也是要去參考別人好的東西這怎麼樣去評估的我們要去做"},{"start":4909.636,"end":4930.541,"text":"所以說我們希望就是要完整一點讓大家覺得說我們要採用這樣子的資料我們再更了解我們在做什麼還有我們現在第三題我想要問的是說我們國家當前即使掌握水下地的形圖之還有金岸的"},{"start":4931.561,"end":4934.522,"text":"流產還有港灣穩定的模擬等資料用以強化我們海事的安全還有國防部以海洋災害的預警所以本中心未來三年有哪些重點科技以任務可具體的展現比如說我們如何與國防隊"},{"start":4954.407,"end":4963.915,"text":"國防部、經濟部還有漁業署等單位進行資料就是公告或成果轉化這個部分"},{"start":4966.489,"end":4987.878,"text":"所以調查船的這個興建跟船模實驗室的這樣子的一個建造是非常重要的將來這些所取得的資訊就是剛剛委員所提到的不管是國防的安全或者是一些生態產業等等發展的這些相關的資訊還有海洋綠能等等相關的這些海底調查的一些資訊我們都會提供給"},{"start":4988.618,"end":5008.696,"text":"相關的機關事實上他們就可以做一個非常好的運用那這個也是我們全海域基礎資料調查船要興建大中小三三種包括4000噸的這樣子的一個所以你很滿意現在的效果嗎我們因為現在在未來是我們要努力的這樣的目標因為所以你也看到說在打臉就是說我們國家"},{"start":5011.578,"end":5015.661,"text":"海底地形就這樣我們日本韓國所以這我們希望的我們真的準備好一個跨部會的整合還有產學轉譯效果要高而且為我們海洋主權與產業的競爭力貢獻中心有準備好這樣子了嗎我們認為說我們的"},{"start":5035.972,"end":5046.862,"text":"這個國家級的中心設立是良善的但是我希望看到的就是不只是一個單位我們希望的是一個能夠整合還有就是協同我們創造這個產值的實際"},{"start":5053.768,"end":5074.665,"text":"還有說各部會要回去檢討,如何他部會讓這個中心,讓這個中心不是一個單位為了設而設,這樣子的話才真正的為我們的海洋,為大家真的是好所以我希望說在一個月內可以提供給我完整的資料嗎"},{"start":5076.026,"end":5076.646,"text":"謝謝麥義臻委員 接下來請張志倫委員"},{"start":5106.924,"end":5112.494,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請海委會好 請副主委"},{"start":5118.57,"end":5145.418,"text":"我們副主委好首先請教一下今天我們討論的是有關於這個國家海洋科技中心的這個相關的一個草案根據海委會的報告顯示國家海洋科技營運中心的主要目標是提升我國海洋科技能力厚植海洋科技研究能量並強化我國海域基礎資訊的掌握那我想要請教我們副主委"},{"start":5146.138,"end":5164.069,"text":"那其實在過去我們國家也發花了很多的人民的預算來去做相關我們國家海洋的一些的這個硬體的一些設置比如說現在預算中心又特別指出我們國海院有一個國家船模實驗多功能水槽建置計畫"},{"start":5165.35,"end":5193.959,"text":"那這個相關的計畫我們也可以看到過去的經費大概是31億然後因為整個原物料上漲的跟一些外部的因素增加成44億那我們現在有點擔心的是這個計畫主要就是希望大家剛剛很多委員都有提到希望我們國家未來在一些船的一些試驗上可以不用到國外去在台灣就可以使用就可以完成以免一些重要的機密外洩"},{"start":5194.699,"end":5203.257,"text":"那我想要請教一下我們這個預算已經增加了大概13億左右那我們現在整體的計畫這個預算中心很擔心其實是不是有比較慢的一個情形"},{"start":5207.913,"end":5226.104,"text":"目前因為這兩個計畫主要是弓箭計畫就是調查船的部分是112到我先請教那個國家船模實驗室現在目前的進度到多少現在大概6點多%因為現在主要是土建6點多%主要是因為土建因為我們是蓋在興達港"},{"start":5230.466,"end":5244.512,"text":"13%因為今年主要是土建的部分因為土建因為它剛在興達港那興達港那邊附近它比較靠海所以事實上當時的一個工程工程上是比較複雜一點所以有延有耽誤嗎現在目前是沒有陸期進行那預期現在完成13%未來預計什麼時候會完工預計是115年今天116116年116年會完成預計116年"},{"start":5254.096,"end":5274.992,"text":"好 那我再請教 其實大家希望說人民納稅錢要用在刀口上那做這個實驗室主要原因就是因為現在國內有試做船艦的船模的實驗水槽沒有辦法提供完整的船模實驗項目那我們現在我們國海院所做的這一個船模的實驗室未來是可以"},{"start":5275.717,"end":5291.353,"text":"可以做我們的整整完整的船模的實驗嗎?對 各位報告他這個可以做到完整的就是包括那個奈海性能的水槽啦還有迴旋臂的水槽等等這個現在都目前國內是沒有的 對所以我們會把整體完整性的一個實驗這樣子實驗室建造起來"},{"start":5293.435,"end":5308.021,"text":"好那希望說大家可以再努力把這個進度給趕上那第二個就是講到的有關於這個大家重視的這個調查船的部分其實經費也從這個也經費也增加了蠻多總經費到31億那其實"},{"start":5311.643,"end":5328.136,"text":"預算中心也特別提說其實過去來講進度非常的緩慢尤其在112年的時候執行率只有23%然後而且在113年的時候的預算都是集中在年底才執行那我可不可以請教一下我們現在這些調查船海洋調查船的進度有趕上嗎"},{"start":5330.74,"end":5346.166,"text":"現在我們釣魚船主要會有三艘那第一艘跟第二艘100噸跟300噸已經去年開工了現在正在興建當中那4000噸的部分因為我們今年有剛通過這個變更計畫所以事實上經費又在增加了因為主要是因為那個現在都是屬於"},{"start":5347.166,"end":5373.613,"text":"造船都是屬於賣方的市場還有包括整個物價上揚所以這次也很謝謝就是已經有通過第二次變更那我們一季四千噸的部分今年算是我們的重頭戲啦希望能夠四千噸最大這一艘嘛對最大這一艘希望能夠在今年年底能夠完成發包今年完成發包對希望那請問一下有沒有整個工程進度有拖延的情況目前四千噸是因為還沒嘛那一百噸跟三百噸目前是沒有的現在是如期在興建當中那大概什麼時候會完成"},{"start":5374.693,"end":5377.955,"text":"100、300噸大概是100噸跟300噸是115年的年底完工然後4000噸的部分是118年完工"},{"start":5383.128,"end":5410.298,"text":"118年完工嗎對是現在好那也拜託因為這都我相信人民都很期待那接下來我就要請教就是有關於今天的草案有關的國家海洋營運中心的設置那因為我認為現在目前的設置我們很多委員對於整個草案為什麼要設置都有相當多的疑問那我們現在需要當然希望說有需要就必須要設置那我可是我從現在海委會的報告裡面沒有看到說我們這個海洋科技營運中心"},{"start":5411.1,"end":5416.216,"text":"設置整體所要的這些經費大概需要多少經費跟人力好像目前都好像沒有規劃"},{"start":5418.058,"end":5445.537,"text":"跟委員報告他必須要用行政法人的原因事實上就是我們的包括這些人才的專業性非常的高然後未來的營運的效能等等比較有彈性那我們的這個經費的部分我們目前是一估從116明年是1515我們大概需要經費大概是6000萬左右然後16會到3億然後17跟18大概3.6億目前是有一個經費的估算"},{"start":5446.819,"end":5449.676,"text":"那人員的部分也有一些禁用的這樣子的規劃"},{"start":5450.728,"end":5478.272,"text":"好就是說其實本席想要請教我們海委會的部分就是說現在我們所有海洋的整個強化韌性的部分我們做這麼多的東西所以不管從現在的建造以及未來人力的配置以及我們這個營運中心的整個建造跟未來人力的配置的部分我覺得就是人才的培育的部分其實是本席所擔心的我們到底有沒有那麼多的經費有沒有那麼多人力的培育"},{"start":5479.973,"end":5502.011,"text":"以及未來我們怎麼樣去執行這些方面本席還是希望說是不是可以提供一個完整的計畫你現在有需要這麼多的經費這麼多的人力那我們台灣現在有這麼多的人力來去做比如說未來調查船的行駛的調查或者是說未來我們整個營運中心有這麼多的人力可以來執行這樣的東西嗎你們現在有辦法回答嗎"},{"start":5504.004,"end":5531.547,"text":"因為這個經費都很多 人力都很多報告委員 事實上我們現在就開始有在做人力培訓了那我們之前就是大概有12個種子教師針對船母的 因為船母它非常的複雜包括整個一些精密儀器的一些操作所以事實上我們已經有完成一部分的國內跟國外的一個培訓那這個是為了我們的種子部隊啦那當然我們也是希望說委員能夠支持讓我們這個行政法能夠成立的話讓我們能夠透過預算裡面能夠如期來來招聘更多專業的人才"},{"start":5532.648,"end":5554.398,"text":"好那最後一個問題有時間的關係喔其實我們現在做這麼多的經費建造未來人力的培訓跟未來營運喔其實我們認為要在這個很重要就是希望說國家的安全的機密不要外洩嗎那我想一下這些人才培訓的有這個安全考核是依照什麼規定來執行未來可以確保國家機密跟技術不會外洩有沒有相關的"},{"start":5555.038,"end":5582.748,"text":"還有會不會建立這個安全查核的機制會有包括一般性的查核跟特殊的這個查核那這個監督的機制要將來會在執法裡面來訂定所以目前就是說現在這個部分我們現在草案裡面是沒有看到相關的對 那是授權海委會監督機關來訂定好 那所以拜託未來海委會的部分的時候我們花了那麼多錢所以花了那麼多人力所以未來整個保密的機制我也希望說海委會可以重視好 注意到這些好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5585.916,"end":5592.502,"text":"好 謝謝張志文 張委員接下來我們請張宏祿委員質詢我請這個副主委跟這個副主委這個院長"},{"start":5612.236,"end":5613.378,"text":"那個副主委跟這個陳院長,其實啊"},{"start":5628.891,"end":5642.313,"text":"我們台灣現在有很多關於海洋研究很多的單位然後也在各個部會裡面其實都有那我們今天成立這個我也是支持但我有一個問題想要請教一下"},{"start":5643.786,"end":5666.294,"text":"我們現在各個部會有沒有業務重疊的有沒有需要整編的那如何去跨部會的協調然後能夠用成更好的一個協調機制不要同樣一件事情兩個單位在做花兩倍的錢我覺得我今天第一個重點想要請教"},{"start":5669.678,"end":5687.552,"text":"這個部分事實上我們也特別注意也謝謝委員關心資源不會重置各個單位它有各自的一個分工未來我們海委會跟國海運還有這個科研中心我們要做的一件事情還包括整合就是剛剛委員提到的不要重置資源"},{"start":5687.892,"end":5705.849,"text":"所以我們也會去整合相關的不管是調查船的這些船隊或者是船模實驗室我們去結合現行各個大學已經有的一些實驗然後把它做成一個船模實驗的國家隊等等這個我們都有在規劃然後會去注意到說不要資源重置好 那跨部會誰主導跨部會誰主導"},{"start":5713.772,"end":5730.703,"text":"我們有主動譬如說恰恰國科會啦或者是像農業部水事所他們現在也有一些研究船然後交通部的部分那還有會因為我們的職責上面統籌協調整合所有的海洋政策事務所以我們都主動的在做這些事情不不不你回答我一個問題誰主導"},{"start":5738.834,"end":5752.323,"text":"不是嘛我剛剛的問題啊各部會都有啊然後有很多都是重複的那你們剛剛回答我說你們跨部會你們都有去協調啊然後不要重複啊不要連教育部連學校都有那我只問一個問題啊誰去主導這個"},{"start":5757.025,"end":5768.292,"text":"啊不然你們都跟我說跨部會我也知道啊我也在行政機關十幾年啊跨部會大家都來啊到最後沒有一個人負責啊沒有一個人去處理事情等於是白談"},{"start":5771.327,"end":5795.132,"text":"就是當然海委會會希望來主導這整個的整合協調但是如果機關之間有一些業務面向上面的分工有什麼需要行政院來協助的部分我們也會請行政院來協助不不不 副主委我剛問的就是我也不想讓你為難你剛就想說你也需要你主導就我所知"},{"start":5796.573,"end":5806.298,"text":"目前就是沒有一個部會可以去主導啦也沒有一個部會可以去協調啦重點是在這嘛 是不是啊人來扮演這個角色不不不 你要回答我的問題啊"},{"start":5811.67,"end":5831.389,"text":"對 有一些這樣的問題就在那裡好啦好啦 你也不方便講啦 我也知道啦但我們都很支持這些研究家這些啊我也先說我是支持啊 但我們不能讓這個事情一拖再拖啦我們不能讓這個事情永遠在這邊嘛 對不對"},{"start":5833.531,"end":5855.056,"text":"我們立法委員我們立法院是要監督你們行政機關預算的執行的什麼的對不對那我們發現了這個問題啊那你今天有這麼多我們又成立了這個又成立了什麼的我覺得就像你說的如果你海委會你想說你要主導要主導的人要扛責"},{"start":5857.348,"end":5882.65,"text":"責任跟權力是要的那你們可以主動去跟行政院啊去跟院長報告啊就這幾個我們大家拿出來盤點哪些跟海委會的業務是很直接的你們願意負全部的責任那你們也願意去主導我覺得應該要這樣子解決這一個很混雜的問題而且這有什麼好處"},{"start":5884.141,"end":5907.499,"text":"很多的東西 很多的 如果你們可以這樣子的話有的預算可以不用多編有的人員可以不用那麼多然後方向明確往前走不是這個單位我往右研究 這個單位我往左研究我往南 往東 哇 到時候連會診都沒有辦法會診你們現在是不是遇到這個問題"},{"start":5912.118,"end":5930.405,"text":"你回答我的問題就好 你們現在是不是遇到這個問題有一些整合上的問題需要解決你一直都避重就輕啦 我也不想為難你啦你們確實就是遇到這個問題嘛那就是遇到問題 我現在就開解方給你你要去這樣做啦 那你們"},{"start":5932.194,"end":5947.252,"text":"海委會 我也認為海委會應該要負起這個整個海洋計畫 海洋研究 海洋保育海洋的未來的規劃什麼的這個本來我認為就是海委會應該要的責任那你其他的部會"},{"start":5948.793,"end":5972.526,"text":"大家要相互配合我說你們的主導不是叫你們威權然後說你們怎樣怎樣都要聽你們的我那個意思是總要有一個總負責的人一個總負責的然後大家去然後有這樣的整合包括明年的預算的編列大家就可以透過這個整合的會議這樣大家去看預算不要重複編列然後放在重點"},{"start":5973.607,"end":5983.881,"text":"然後你們那個騎乘這樣子規劃才要這樣出來啊這樣這一點可不可以做到啦我們會往這個方向來演繹也跟行政院來做報告你們會往這個方向來演繹"},{"start":5988.191,"end":6014.42,"text":"我不反對啦但我覺得啦應該要負責任的說就是要這樣子走因為你沒有辦法決定回去跟你們主委報告然後跟院長報告我覺得要這樣啦這樣才能整合這個已經好多年了都沒有處理啦可以嗎報告我剛剛提到就是說希望還有要擔起這樣的角色跟責任好啦你就這樣做啦好謝謝委員"},{"start":6016.598,"end":6025.324,"text":"好,謝謝我們最帥的張宏祿委員接下來請王美惠委員質詢主席,我們請副主委請副主委有請王一川委員,你要過來你好"},{"start":6043.191,"end":6052.913,"text":"你好 副主委 今天我們討論到國家海洋科技條例裡面的草案這是新的嘛 因為是新的 現在來討論行政法律的問題但是現在 我覺得受這個法"},{"start":6066.616,"end":6068.677,"text":"我是非常贊同,剛才我們董事會說責任歸屬在哪裡,我認為你慢慢走走因為我認為在這裡要討論,就是可以啦,這個法則開"},{"start":6087.87,"end":6091.736,"text":"真的有到位啦因為我認為不要說開支跟付出的心肺就看多少在這裡啦所以你對剛才"},{"start":6101.936,"end":6125.476,"text":"妳還有要補充什麼嗎?副主委謝謝委員的確還有會是責無旁貸我們要把這個責任擔負起來那這個船模實驗室跟國家調查團隊可以建造完成之後整個國家的這種調查整個調查的量能還有國家關鍵技術的這個核心技術的一些提升等等的確就可以有非常大的一個注意"},{"start":6126.537,"end":6132.882,"text":"因為 副主委我為什麼要跟你講到這個問題 因為本席也有提到在這裡面 我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣因為我裡面的條例的時候 我也 我們的外國人"},{"start":6144.145,"end":6159.039,"text":"還是正經在中國的 還是澳門的港澳的都不能擔任我們裡面的黨官署那個副主席你認為本席會有多少希望可以這個法我提議的這個你覺得認為如何來"},{"start":6167.382,"end":6193.983,"text":"根本報告這個部分事實上我們在規劃未來的這個董監事還有一些執行人員的時候事實上也是朝這個方向朝這個方向對 只是說因為我們的整個立法的體力我們有參照到行政法人法還有其他的行政法人的立法體力那未來我們會在那個安全查核的面向上面來阻絕這個部分對啦 因為我覺得你如果做檔案署在裡面"},{"start":6195.184,"end":6206.747,"text":"有很多重要的文具裡面的資料,他都可以看,還可以了解因為我覺得,我們要想這個法律學院,也要讓他到位不是說想想,如果不去做,不去改革,也有可能會繼續去擔任這個職務"},{"start":6222.245,"end":6245.694,"text":"這是有可能的喔你如果不用心去了解的時候我講的這個問題有可能會產生喔你覺得未來在執法裡面我們也會去做相關的規範那鹿港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們這個國家海洋科技運營中心啦對因為依照它本身的條例的規範有一些對啦 條例的規範 但是未來有可能我們要"},{"start":6251.028,"end":6254.75,"text":"不然發生我們就要想啦 不然發生以後說這樣就太慢了在這裏面的編制當中 因為本身後來你們找你們的資料來看的時候你們有在營運中心裏面有編制裏面的零碗 一百個嘛一百個裏面的營運處裏面 占中間那八十個 七十九個啦"},{"start":6279.986,"end":6284.468,"text":"未來你們有可能再去拯救這些人嗎?來未來的營運狀況,初期我們現在就是100個人喔,初期跟未來,這樣我就給問你的了,給說的了我是說你未來有可能還是不會再拯救啦營運狀態,因為我就是本社會來問這個因為我們18、15年,今年要移送"},{"start":6309.974,"end":6311.756,"text":"是非常嚴峻 因為要把行為做好 新的一定要有政策所以你不用煩惱 改政策你就要政策 我也會支持支持這個議席的時候 我們會相當的考慮看要怎麼去解決這個問題 還要緊"},{"start":6333.444,"end":6335.726,"text":"不然你說 本來就不夠 又不夠情感這樣你設一個要做什麼 再多多設"},{"start":6341.787,"end":6355.133,"text":"我們都很精密的有去估算然後當然要讓這個中心能夠做非常好的營運所以人力需求上都有估算因為我認為日本可以領袖什麼事情的原因就是說我們不要說我們本來要接的現在為了大家在那裡看 還有為了整個問題的時候"},{"start":6365.098,"end":6369.1,"text":"若同樣十月不成功,差不多十五個崗位你叫十月做,這樣也非常不應該這樣做的崗位也不會努力,也不會好事尤其我們這個法規要保護台灣的安全中華民國不是親切不負而已在這裡,本席跟你說,這個問題跟人員的成功"},{"start":6394.127,"end":6409.874,"text":"還有外國籍的可以擔任什麼 你來相當去考慮 去了解這個問題因為我感覺說 你如果有資料的時候早期還要去給別人啊 更何況他可以擔任這個 早期他可以資料出來這樣就海融融了啦沒有 我沒有讓這些人認知好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6421.902,"end":6425.786,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席 我們有請副主委副主委請"},{"start":6440.942,"end":6466.335,"text":"副主委好我想本席要先肯定我們海委會的一個努力在我們月初的時候通過了海巡軍職薪資待遇跟國軍同步這樣去做提升讓我們海巡起薪也達到四萬塊我相信將近有九千位的機程士官兵來受惠這對於我們長年在第一線守護海域保護人民的海巡兄弟這個是一季的一個強心針"},{"start":6468.036,"end":6486.154,"text":"但是本席在這個地方也要特別提出來另一個急迫的一個問題就是說我們在去年警消還有移民署還有空勤這個都是有夜間危險的一個勤務的一個津貼"},{"start":6488.076,"end":6508.739,"text":"對於我們海巡弟兄來講的話,深夜為勞性的一個勤務的一個補貼啊,到現在還是空白。我不曉得你們的看法是怎麼樣啦。諸位已經講過說,你們說這個是未來的一個目標啦,但是這個聽起來就讓人就覺得,沒有負理由聽起來都蒼白又無力啦。"},{"start":6509.5,"end":6528.002,"text":"因為我都一直覺得說你台海局勢如果越緊張啊我們海巡面對了其實說實在話啦最緊張的就是共軍啦那不分晝月這樣子給你挑釁的話那你這個共軍或者中國的海軍或者那一些這個亂七八糟的船"},{"start":6528.823,"end":6549.142,"text":"他也不會只有挑白天來啊他晚上也會來啊所以你海巡的弟兄是不分白天跟黑夜在巡訪冒著這樣深夜的一個風浪頂著這個風險值極高的一個勤務啊卻沒有這個配套補貼的一個制度啊我覺得這個是實質的不對等布小林的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6550.151,"end":6575.792,"text":"就是跟委員報告其實管主委對這個部分就誠如他所說的啦其實他非常努力的在爭取啦那我們對同仁的權益尤其是剛剛提到的這些深夜圍牢的這個津貼的部分希望可以得到院裡面還有你們規劃了沒有我們有規劃有規劃可以請我們副主長報告委員非常感謝委員的關心那目前跟我們仁總在持續溝通協調中"},{"start":6578.625,"end":6596.184,"text":"這個其實海巡弟兄的勤務其實非常的一個繁重你說不只是守海 其實守海就是在守國他們同時肩負的你說邊境的一個巡防 海上的執法還有你看我們海邊那個地方 其實都是一些災難的一個救援多重的這樣的一個任務"},{"start":6597.685,"end":6625.096,"text":"海巡過去 海委會過去對人員這個權益相當於重視 我們都是去肯定但是我們希望這一塊盡速到位這個變成一個制度的一個黑影 這不對很努力的在爭取這一塊 跟人種要努力啦 好不好那我針對今天這麼多委員一直在提到我們今天這個海洋科技的一個資源整合的問題我相信你們也聽到很多"},{"start":6626.651,"end":6648.94,"text":"機關重疊的問題很多的計畫像我們今天在審這個立法的一個草案的一個立法的一個目的你最主要是強化國家整體海洋的科技的一個量能你像比如說你這個第三條裡面就列舉了海洋調查設施管理人才培育國際合作等七大項的一個業務但是我也注意到"},{"start":6649.42,"end":6669.247,"text":"你去看我們國家研究院其實早就設有台灣海洋科技研究中心那你說從它的主要任務從平台的建構到研究船的維運人才培育跟草案所提到的新中心業務其實這個都你看高度的重疊啦真的是高度的一個重疊啦所以我要請你做說明的就是說"},{"start":6670.687,"end":6689.945,"text":"為什麼已經在國衛院中心的情況之下我們還需要再設立一個新的國家海洋科技營運中心我們擔心的就是說你這個人力跟資源重複的一個配置的問題其實大家更擔心的啦我私底下在問啦更擔心的是你只有多了一個可以申請計畫的法人單位而已啦簡單說明"},{"start":6694.333,"end":6718.496,"text":"國海院下設的這幾個重新事實上都是比較政策研究型的這樣子的一些個單位那我們這一次的這個科技調查中心海洋的這個事實上他很重點在傳模實驗室跟未來整個國家調查團隊的營運管理功能還有這些專業的人才的培育跟留才這個是他會非常不同於現在國海院在處理的業務的面向"},{"start":6719.482,"end":6746.892,"text":"我們最擔心的是什麼呢其實你多了一個單位如果多一份力量那是好事啊可是你如果多了一個單位只是分散掉而已那其實就是無濟於事啦所以我真正想請教的啊你說以目前你看的就是說你看台灣目前涉及海洋的學術跟科研單位就那麼多海大中山城大還有這個國研院船舶中心各部位海洋計畫現在這一些啊各做各的啦"},{"start":6748.402,"end":6773.969,"text":"你互不相通甚至於互相在搶人搶船搶人搶資源這個常常大家是有耳聞的那就是說這次設立中心是不是真正具備有統籌協調的一個實權你未來研究船的一個調度實驗設施的維運還有資料的整合跟管理是不是能夠集中到這個中心來做一個平台那如果變成一個申請的窗口的話要怎麼做"},{"start":6776.458,"end":6801.107,"text":"我們最擔心的是這個啦你這科研的資源你不能各吹各的海風你中心設立以後應該是你應該是一個羅盤應該是一個舵手應該是一個整合者要不然大家小乖 大家像這個樣子而已這個要特別了 尤其你剛提到留才 要留住人才其實我們真的 以現在你這個制度你可以留住人才嗎"},{"start":6802.264,"end":6813.91,"text":"你要留住人才就很簡單啊你第一個你的薪水是多少啊你的制度到底有沒有給他保障啊你的升遷你的升遷的制度是怎麼樣啊那這一些你很難看你們草創階段啊看得出來啊一個你看這個我們現在喔海洋科系的你畢業後 兩條路嘛 對吧做科研嘛 不然要走準嘛走準 你要三伏一戶多少錢你知道嗎 像萬海跟長榮的多少你知道嗎 十八萬"},{"start":6831.127,"end":6841.294,"text":"你這趴生要換多少來之後大家計畫做一做計畫結束 走掉了你說叫他繼續留下來繼續留下來他會覺得我也沒有升遷的管道"},{"start":6842.285,"end":6865.531,"text":"我薪水又不夠多大家學到經驗以後 酸這個對他們到底是有沒有吸引力也就是說我們目前科研體系根本沒有辦法提供相對應的流財的一個誘因所以說你要流財 育財 生財你這個機制如果沒有先做好的話你這個到最後你的中心是人才的流動站"},{"start":6866.531,"end":6889.351,"text":"我們要把它變成是人採的基地 培育的基地這樣才對啊所以我可以理解我們中興要採比較彈性的聘用制度但是如果說你只有這樣的短期契約 沒有升遷的階梯甚至於沒有績效的獎勵 薪資又缺乏彈性這個常常會變成一個中繼站這個我提出來啊 要特別特別啊"},{"start":6889.811,"end":6916.749,"text":"我們海外委員會這邊要特別去留意你看你今年海洋科技專案補助計畫擴編到七千五百萬七千五百萬對學界是一個鼓舞但是研究計畫做完人走了成果也跟著流失你補助這些都是短期的而已制度才是一個關鍵這個副主委我是覺得謝謝委員提醒我們都有往這個方面包括留才怎麼樣為了能夠把人才留在這個中心裡面"},{"start":6918.351,"end":6922.215,"text":"我就跟妳說妳情緒多 妳說不出來了妳的比較多口碑 妳的比較多白筆的啊妳只說要留財來 簡單做一個回應"},{"start":6929.81,"end":6954.572,"text":"我們現在目前是比照教育人員生活條例還有很多的獎金制度那船員的部分會比照一般外面的船員的一個薪資是啊 所以誘因在哪裡你們認為這個誘因就夠了我覺得誘因來講除了薪水以外還有包括它是屬於公法的行政法的我覺得相對來講它的一個工作上的穩定性確實也會吸引到一些造船相關系所的一些學生"},{"start":6955.413,"end":6982.447,"text":"因為我們有問過 我們有去做一些survey啦當然他們也期待到業界啦不過這個全職業本來都是大家人主要的選定啦那當然我們希望說我們這個制度 行李料 這個單位可以行李料可以去我們跟你這樣提出問題是叫你們要未雨綢繆啊不然你設計這個中心要重疊性的要幹什麼你涉及到如果說搶資源的啦說一艘船啦 你要決定要給誰啦"},{"start":6983.763,"end":7011.674,"text":"你到最後什麼人要處理 你這個中心有沒有辦法做決定當最後的一個仲裁者所以我都覺得這個大家要誠實去做一個面對先把問題先提出來最後一個問題你中心可能會涉及到機敏性的資訊的問題如何去把關關鍵人員的一個禁用我看你們今天早上主委也去提到還有會這邊好像也有在中國有居住權的"},{"start":7015.081,"end":7032.14,"text":"你們現在清查出來是幾位清查有三位是在中國有居住證他是從小因為父親是台商所以從小就有居住證在那邊成長但是在招募我們志願士兵之後他都已經完成申請撤銷"},{"start":7033.101,"end":7050.448,"text":"那所以他現在從事的是士兵都是願意士兵路上的還是海上的暗巡路上暗巡那還好啊你像譬如說我們現在以現在來看的話研發單位或者艦艇或者情搜或者直通或者新型的一個武器的"},{"start":7050.908,"end":7075.724,"text":"那你如果說在對讓這些中國有居住證的人我們的民眾還是心裡頭比較不安心啦所以國安部門以後這一塊啊你們說禁用人員你們要做考核 你要怎麼考核你是一個法人欸那是不是也比照啊 跟國安單位你要不要考核 你不能跟人家說我調查你有沒有犯罪紀錄沒做過三次 看有沒有犯罪的沒跟人家這樣讓夫妻同盟起來對對的"},{"start":7080.587,"end":7102.396,"text":"這個就比較草率啦是不是也可以跟國安單位這個地方啊你們要好好的去研擬這個制度的一個創建剛開始的時候就要非常謹慎因為我們非常嚴謹那將來也會有特殊查核的部分我們會跟安全單位來合作請安全單位來協助這個都有限在這樣的規劃當中這個一定要規劃得非常謹慎啦好不好這不能開玩笑啦"},{"start":7108.538,"end":7127.994,"text":"那個夜間的危老人家 你說只有警察有 消防有 空勤有 漁民署有真正每個晚上不分白天作業 晚上反而是最危險這個我們的整個海巡弟兄反而沒有很奇怪 趕快把它補起來好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員 接下來我們請李柏毅委員"},{"start":7151.966,"end":7157.429,"text":"謝謝,我們請副主委跟海洋研究院院長副主委、院長請"},{"start":7163.462,"end":7169.865,"text":"我剛還有海巡署副署長也到我剛在樓下內政委員會剛質詢完管組委還有我們署長"},{"start":7178.355,"end":7200.19,"text":"針對海底電纜被破壞的事情針對這些罰則有沒有要提高最重要的是針對在立法院被刪除以及凍結的預算對我們執行這些業務造成的影響剛剛也講得非常清楚在內政委員會裡面其實只有刪除1500萬跟凍結1億"},{"start":7203.237,"end":7228.038,"text":"但是到了院會被台灣民眾黨直接提案統三百分之十五造成的影響那剛剛也講得很清楚在海巡署的部分有兩艘船沒有辦法交付兩艘船沒有辦法交付直接造成執行如果要斷我們電纜的這些船隻的包夾等等的在業務上是有困難的"},{"start":7229.528,"end":7241.001,"text":"凍結的部分在這些巡查方面直接造成我們現在相關油料以及維修的這些問題這個是剛在樓下內政委員會的問題我們現在要審我們現在要討論國家海洋科技營運中心的這個條例的問題我先請教"},{"start":7249.031,"end":7270.745,"text":"我剛講的通山15%裡面在我們國家傳模實驗室裡面受影響的預算有哪個可不可以請院長來回答通山部分的話傳模實驗室大概3億多那會影響到就是照播系統跟這個土木建設的部分土木建設影響到我們怎麼進駐"},{"start":7272.998,"end":7294.976,"text":"什麼時候要進駐?土木現在已經進駐了我們現在有多少人員即將要進駐?當然包含我們的這個海洋基礎我們的岩吊船什麼時候開始?應該說現在還在興建當中那現在進駐的都是施工的人員那我們如果這個可能有1億2,今年度1億2還有凍結的部分會影響到多少?"},{"start":7298.258,"end":7313.861,"text":"會影響到 市供的話可能期程上就會在多兩個月多兩個月所以今年會好嗎 還是要明年我們現在目前預計還是如期希望在116年的時候完工 如期完工 穿模實驗室"},{"start":7315.343,"end":7330.848,"text":"2016年所以今年度可能就是部分影響那其實現在因為工班非常的難找確實也是面臨到這個整個大環境之下所以我們現在很努力啦現在目前工班是如期在進駐那現在工期也是如期"},{"start":7331.568,"end":7355.424,"text":"好 謝謝所以我還是釐清一下我們相關的進度影響到多少那國海院當然還負責到國家相關所有的這些包含海洋產業的這些問題那海洋產業我一直對於一項想要就教你知道台灣我們我國籍的船舶的船員目前"},{"start":7356.618,"end":7385.174,"text":"一直停留在五千六百人左右那從當然從疫情期間會比較缺那當然後來我們其他的這些包含商船包含漁船那也包含我們現在我們現在的海調船都需要這些相關的船員那我想要請教我想要請教我們海員院的院長國海院院長的是"},{"start":7386.383,"end":7406.119,"text":"有沒有研擬一個政策 你看喔 我這個數字給你看我國現在船員合計加起來是7000個左右但是所需的這些船員不斷地需要不斷地增加增加的都是外國籍的船員比較多"},{"start":7408.177,"end":7424.896,"text":"這凸顯一個問題就是我們有沒有把船員當作一個海洋的資產海洋的產業要來培訓那如果要來培訓要來讓更多人願意比如說讀航海系的讀這些相關科系的學生願意投入的話"},{"start":7425.757,"end":7443.762,"text":"我們有沒有可能跟內政部這邊來研議有沒有相關的替代役比如說這個替代役一年那就可以讓這些人取得傳言證之外那他也有相關的薪水等等的院長是不是也就這一方面來做一個研議跟討論還有跟產業來討論有沒有這個相關的需求"},{"start":7456.003,"end":7475.843,"text":"那個麥克風這個業務是屬於交通部業務屬於航港局啦對但我講我現在問你的是海洋產業的這一個問題海洋產業是不是我們如果就這個現在目前的行政法人的部分我們現在目前是有聘那個替代役的部分有有有徵聘沒有沒有沒有沒有不是不是在你們裡面的替代役我是說船員的部分"},{"start":7476.664,"end":7496.71,"text":"船員是不是為海洋產業之一啊是那船員短缺的問題我們有沒有要跟內政部來研議這一些相關的替代意不是說在你的不是在你不是在你委員這個部分因為是交通部航港局那邊的一個權責來我就給你看數字我們會建議我就給你看數字"},{"start":7497.955,"end":7519.666,"text":"我國船員就一直停滯在這裡那為什麼我們一直要聘國外的船員當然可能也有價錢的問題啦可能這些東南亞以及或者是中國船員的薪水比較低但是我們有沒有要厚實我們的這些船員的這些人力的基礎那我希望我們藉由這個討論"},{"start":7521.307,"end":7533.734,"text":"那可以來也跟這個相關的議政單位來討論有沒有增加替代役的這些空間會跟交通部內政部討論謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝李博義委員接下來我們請黃婕委員好謝謝主席我們請副主委請副主委"},{"start":7552.943,"end":7578.056,"text":"副主委好今天我們要來審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的草案的條例當然我非常肯定因為我覺得這個是在國建國造的基礎之下非常重要的延伸因為有這個傳播實驗室建立之後我們才會有一些基礎數據才可以繼續做好我們的關鍵基礎設施那這個傳播設計能力當然也非常重要那我在這邊想要提一個接下來可能會有的風險"},{"start":7579.136,"end":7600.888,"text":"就是這個草案設置下去之後我們必須要慎防我們裡面的非常重要的機敏資訊不應該外流怎麼說呢因為我看一下其實你們一直都 海委會一直都有跟像我們高雄有兩個是有海事相關的科系的學校像是中山大學 高雄科技大學都有很好的交流"},{"start":7601.528,"end":7623.902,"text":"那這個當然我非常認同那可是這種合作接下來在如果是碰到相關國防相關的機密以及你們重要的基礎資訊是不是會有一些風險在這邊想要提醒就是因為接下來你們會辦理一些海洋的調查還有實驗技術的研究很多都是機密的資訊尤其是海洋地形會測數據"},{"start":7625.863,"end":7644.15,"text":"那這個未來都是我們潛艦作戰非常重要的基礎那我們到底要怎麼保障我們的數據安全呢我在這邊提一個喔因為其實你也知道說現在世界各地包括歐洲包括美國都在打擊中國的學術間諜可是我們這兩個學校啊交流的對象裡面"},{"start":7648.832,"end":7677.759,"text":"有很多中國的軍工大學那你也知道說其實我們最近才剛公告我們教育部有公告我國的大學跟中國的國防七子跟統戰部的三校總共有十個學校就是他們所謂那幾個為解放軍效力的然後研究都是為了要提供給解放軍資訊的十個統戰學校裡面我們中山大學交流的對象就有三間是本次被禁止交流的對象"},{"start":7679.245,"end":7700.126,"text":"高雄科技大學姊妹校裡面也有一間屬於中國的國防棲子也就是說接下來我們在我們這個這麼好的學校接下來跟他們進行這個海洋科學研究的交流的時候會不會有這個中國學術間諜的風險呢在這邊先請副主委回答"},{"start":7701.406,"end":7723.096,"text":"我們這個中心的這個人員的聘用我們非常重視這個特別是機敏資訊的這樣子的維護所以我們未來會有一個安全的查核辦法對於這些人員的禁用的部分會有一般性的查核跟特殊查核那特殊查核的部分我們會協調安全單位一起來做協助那這些工作都是由海委會來做一個監督的這樣的一個工作"},{"start":7724.508,"end":7743.86,"text":"對 這就是我想在這邊提醒的因為其實我們這一次我們賴總統也講得很明確嘛17項的國安的統戰因應策略裡面學術也是一個重點尤其是接下來任何的學術交流都應該要去政治化 去風險化但是你也知道在中國就是軍民融合"},{"start":7744.52,"end":7761.738,"text":"他們所有的基礎科學的研究都是為了他們的解放軍在效力這個都是事實那至於說我們現在高雄的這兩所學校跟你們有這麼多的海事合作接下來如果他們繼續跟中國這些國防棲子跟他們統戰部的這幾個軍校合作"},{"start":7764.321,"end":7779.999,"text":"該怎麼辦那當然現在也已經禁止了啦那只是說接下來會不會有像這樣的風險像你像副主委剛剛講的就是接下來的審核就變得非常重要所以我也希望在這邊再次的提醒這是一個接下來必須要慎防的事情"},{"start":7781.08,"end":7803.161,"text":"那再來就是資安風險跟人員的訓練那我在這邊也想要提醒一件事情其實國安局今年初有公告這個去年2024年中共網駭手法的分析報告那我們去年被駭客攻擊的次數是240萬次比前年又增加了一倍那很多都是來自中共的網軍"},{"start":7804.302,"end":7830.343,"text":"那大家也知道說它這個裡面它有把類型分出來以電信業傳播的領域增長了650%交通方面是70%國防供應鏈是57%那這三大領域就是中共的網軍駭客攻擊的對象的三大領域那再來所以我也想要請教接下來我們國家海洋科技營運中心接下來成立之後"},{"start":7831.604,"end":7855.649,"text":"那我們的資通安全的標準是不是可以跟國際標準同步那因為我認為啦就是國建國造我真的非常的關心那很多基地也都在高雄那接下來這些資安的標準到底要怎麼樣做到防護以防我們接下來這麼好的傳模的實驗室這麼好的基礎資訊未來被滲透被攻擊然後甚至是被洩露該怎麼辦"},{"start":7860.374,"end":7887.412,"text":"有關於我們在揣摩的部分我們現在目前朝向資安的規劃是在B級所以B級裡面所法規法書裡面所要求的項目剛剛成都委員提到的有一些駭客的供給供給還有包括整個軟硬體的一個設施我們事實上都會同步同步在進行所以我們事實上不只剛剛成都副主委提到的我們在人員的部分一般查核安全查核還有包括我們在軟硬體的部分在實驗室的軟硬體的部分這部分我們事實上都已經有規劃好了"},{"start":7888.853,"end":7913.198,"text":"還有包括整個資料的一個機密保護我們會遵照一些相關的一個計畫裡面事實上我們現在目前也在持續進行當中就是有關於我們國海委員委託的這些計畫包括村委員提到的一些地形車會水文這些資料事實上我們都有簽跟委託單位都有簽保密協定OK好謝謝院長的補充說明那這個我也希望你們的承諾接下來都可以用這麼高的標準來審慎應對好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7919.079,"end":7938.274,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員這個副主委你看從早上問到現在那麼多委員都就是這個整個國安的問題因為涉及到海底電纜還有戰略資訊這個確實 國安部份把關要非常的一個確實我們接下來有請我們林倩琦林委員資訊"},{"start":7945.174,"end":7957.268,"text":"主席還有我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請吳副主委有請我們吳副主委或者陳院長大家一起來探討有關於我們這個組織成立本席這邊關心的一些議題"},{"start":7961.637,"end":7985.837,"text":"這個國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例的草案一目前送出來的這個方案是希望能夠透過行政法人然後藉由制度鬆綁跟企業化的管理來提升我們海洋科技的研究跟調查的能力但是這個草案的一些實施的細節制度的設計跟未來的運作我們希望能夠有一些這些疑問能夠一些釐清例如這個是比較整個系統性的問題"},{"start":7986.838,"end":8002.761,"text":"所以行政法的模式是不是能夠真正落實公眾利益跟績效的這個監督這是一個問題那第二個部分是高度專業的人才的培育跟留任的計畫可不可以有具體的一個策略然後跟誘因"},{"start":8003.462,"end":8020.438,"text":"這是本席今天第二大的系統問題那還有新設的營運中心如何跟我們現在在高雄興達港那麼多眾多的海洋科技的設施進行明顯的分工跟資源的整合也不會重疊跟浪費所以本席今天就針對這幾項來跟貴委員會做一個討論"},{"start":8026.723,"end":8043.036,"text":"所以一開始就是針對行政法人的國家海洋科技營運中心那麼在加速人士經費採購制度的靈活運用上可能是要行政法人這樣一個主軸來做處理但是過度強調彈性跟效率那伴隨來的風險就是公務監督的難度增加"},{"start":8048.88,"end":8069.187,"text":"然後還有公共財產管理的透明度也降低了然後還有預算資金運用缺乏妥善管理的這個問題那很重要在這個草案當中我也沒有看到相對的比較明確的評鑑指標標準跟落實的方式那如果沒有能夠達到你們所訂定的績效那整個究責的問題"},{"start":8070.808,"end":8099.325,"text":"所以本席這邊想要請教一下那海委會如何能夠確保我們這樣一個企業化管理模式的這個國家海洋科技營運中心能夠符合公共利益那在人事鬆綁之後呢那內控機制會弱化那利益迴避是不是會相對困難可不可以進一步來說明那剛才本席也提到的有關於人員培訓設備營運效能的具體考核項目跟問責的程序"},{"start":8100.285,"end":8110.234,"text":"那如果沒有能夠達到你們預期的效益那除了所謂的效益不彰草案中規定的解散機制以外你們還有什麼樣子的應對措施嗎"},{"start":8112.113,"end":8134.174,"text":"麻煩副主委先跟委員報告就是他必須要用行政法人來設立的這樣的一個必要性就是剛剛提到他有非常多需要專業人才的一個禁用然後運作上的一個彈性讓他保持那個效能的部分那委員剛剛關切的包括這個監督的機制啦或者是會不會有一些評估的指標啦或者是會計制度等等"},{"start":8134.694,"end":8163.181,"text":"那這個在我們的條例裡面呢授權未來要訂定相關的一些執法來做這個相關的制度的一個建制那這樣子的一個規定也是參照其他法人其他行政法人現有我們國家大概有11個行政法人我們參照那個其他行政法人的立法體力然後用授權執法的方式未來會把委員關切的這些問題包括他的這個績效指標等等的都會在執法裡面來做一個更詳細的一個律定"},{"start":8164.079,"end":8175.524,"text":"好的謝謝副主委所以在海委會在監督這個執法或行政命令的這個訂定的同時也請你們注意你們立法的這個意旨那不要讓這些後續的這個作為糟蹭了"},{"start":8179.502,"end":8192.006,"text":"好 那第二個部分因為其實你們用這樣子的一個組織最重要就是人才的培育所以本席這邊要談的是人才培訓跟留任的這個問題如果你們能夠有這麼多專業人才那你們一直強調船舶的操作 海洋的調查還有設備的操作 船舶設計跟資料分析等等"},{"start":8200.268,"end":8228.96,"text":"那這個對於我們在海上這個經常接觸的人都非常重要那但是呢你們草案目前只有談到人才培訓的同步進行可是卻沒有講到這個相對的具體的時程跟培訓的這個制度所以這也是本席又回到剛才講的效度上的一個問題那對於這個法案通過之後呢那後續的這個部分其實能夠怎麼樣來真正的檢視真的也請你們多加注意"},{"start":8229.72,"end":8252.62,"text":"但是這邊我們談到的這個人力的培訓其實成本很高那如果沒有合理的薪資升遷管道還有人才養成的這個路徑那我們也可能讓這個中心變成從人才的訓練中心變成人才的儲備中心因此你們能不能具體的交代那未來國家海洋科技營運中心在專業人才培訓的計劃詳細的時程"},{"start":8254.682,"end":8276.403,"text":"具體的內容還有如何確保人員的留任那這個部分呢其實關係到我們整個海洋技術的研發人才那目前你們有沒有什麼樣子的一個規劃謝謝立委提問我們現在目前船舶部分已經有第一批已經完成第一批的人才培訓了包括國內跟國外的"},{"start":8278.586,"end":8296.267,"text":"現在目前就是還會在明年開始又會針對船模 船模的製造就是說把大船變成小船的那個船模製造也會啟動這個所謂的國內人才的一個培訓那當然我們也希望啦這一些透過培訓的這些人才能夠留任下來"},{"start":8297.108,"end":8307.684,"text":"然後接下去我們法輪成立的時候順便就可以直接來過去那這邊也是我們努力的目標成立委員提到所以我們會在新制的部分也會做這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":8309.059,"end":8332.863,"text":"好的 那本席這邊希望會後能夠給我補充一下那個時程還有訓練的一個細節 好不好你們留任 最主要是留任的誘因喔好 那最後呢 我還是為我們所在的這個高雄來請命新達港已經形成一個龐大的海洋的這個發展區域中心那麼經濟部有海洋科技產業專區在這邊喔國研院 那個海洋科研中心那另外"},{"start":8333.323,"end":8353.192,"text":"你們海委會自身的國家船模實驗室跟國海院的試驗園區那整個那麼多的重大設施在這邊那整個區域範圍這麼大那有這麼多的單位你們如何在現有的機構上的定位的一個分工模式去做一個處理那當然很重要的就是說那請問你們在跨部會協調的初步方案目前是如何規劃的"},{"start":8358.515,"end":8367.213,"text":"還有未來新設的營運中心有沒有融合園區整體佈局避免土地資源分散重疊使用的情形這個針對"},{"start":8370.158,"end":8393.638,"text":"這個跨部會我想這個是我們未來都會遇到的這個問題那當然我再回應一下剛才前面有聽到委員對於國安的這個問題非常的重視但是像本席經常在海上對於資訊的公共性也是非常的關心因為好多在海上的水文相關的資訊我們沒有的話那在海上其實也是個困難"},{"start":8394.659,"end":8408.398,"text":"對國外想要來台灣的人也是一種困難你們如何在國安跟台灣的國際化中間取到一個平衡那這個部分是不是可以在會後給本席一個相關的報告跟回應好嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":8411.601,"end":8430.617,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員那主席先做會議程序的一個宣告啦由於我們上午的會議進行到現在都沒有休息我們稍後在吳世堯委員詢答完畢以後休息五分鐘那接下來我們有請來翁曉琳委員諮詢你要不要笑一笑我不知道要怎麼贏"},{"start":8444.581,"end":8465.846,"text":"謝謝主席有請吳副主委是副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個"},{"start":8467.747,"end":8484.588,"text":"執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人"},{"start":8486.755,"end":8506.671,"text":"那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就"},{"start":8509.373,"end":8517.199,"text":"外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督"},{"start":8520.611,"end":8544.927,"text":"報告委員 未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟那個基礎資料的這個調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後呢我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要"},{"start":8545.467,"end":8571.099,"text":"但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技運用中心"},{"start":8571.701,"end":8588.744,"text":"根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人"},{"start":8589.164,"end":8604.733,"text":"那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能"},{"start":8605.478,"end":8624.808,"text":"其實也就是說只是為了一個調查船什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別再額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少"},{"start":8629.206,"end":8645.519,"text":"人員的部分 國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋 科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116 16 17 18大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算"},{"start":8652.307,"end":8669.122,"text":"所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高"},{"start":8670.686,"end":8697.458,"text":"3億到1億8億是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好"},{"start":8699.017,"end":8719.545,"text":"大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有跌床加工第二個他們的"},{"start":8722.046,"end":8731.112,"text":"自籌能力裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心的未來他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些"},{"start":8735.187,"end":8758.462,"text":"現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個"},{"start":8759.002,"end":8780.145,"text":"那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個收入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託"},{"start":8781.207,"end":8807.92,"text":"如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例"},{"start":8808.78,"end":8832.134,"text":"至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌"},{"start":8833.188,"end":8850.173,"text":"好 我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的"},{"start":8851.313,"end":8871.63,"text":"例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍不僅沒有自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔好 以上希望你們一個月之內給我提一個報告好 謝謝"},{"start":8874.059,"end":8898.066,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳翁委員接下來我們有請劉許廷劉委員質詢你的名字我念不中你要給他佩服開玩笑好 謝謝主席這個我們吳副主委然後國海院陳院長跟海保署請我們副主委還有國海院陳院長"},{"start":8905.229,"end":8907.572,"text":"好謝謝齁這個我先請教一下今天我們討論的是這個"},{"start":8910.632,"end":8935.493,"text":"相關的這個海科中心的這個相關的一個條文那當然啦就基於這個海洋的保護科技的研究強化國家的實力等等那當然多做一點事情這個我們當然用開放的心態來面對不過我也要提醒一下就是說剛剛有很多委員去談到比如說財務資產的問題啊人員重複的問題這個希望這個相關的一些資料收集齊全做充分的溝通未來在法療進入審查的時候它其實才會比較順利啦"},{"start":8937.114,"end":8957.612,"text":"那這樣子的硬體建設的支持我想大部分人都不會反對只要說明清楚不會遇到太多的阻力但我想今天想要借這樣一個機會我反而要問一下有關軟體的部分這個去年第一會期我們在審查這個海保法在審議完畢的時候其實本席有提出相關的一個附帶決議那也經過內政委員會當初一致的"},{"start":8958.072,"end":8983.376,"text":"通過那就是由這個讓海委會這邊要針對這個海洋保育的這個知識的建構要讓我們第一線的執法人員有更好的這樣子的一個本領啦你才有辦法去貫徹海保法當初設計出來的一些初衷那我想請問一下這個海洋保育的相關課程因為那時候規定了比如說總訓練時數要到20個小時以上要定期回訓機制這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問現在設計到什麼樣的階段"},{"start":8989.442,"end":9017.824,"text":"報告委員那我們現在我們的這個人員的經用包括我們的巡查員跟觀察員的部分現階段都還在持續的規劃那我們當然也針對我們自己保育巡查員或是將來在保育執法上這些人員的執法能力包括他的課程設計然後他的認證跟他未來面對民眾的部分我們在現階段來講我們有正在"},{"start":9019.045,"end":9037.641,"text":"這個署長召集我們正在規劃跟策劃當中現在針對這樣子的一個課程跟訓練機制的設計是誰負責海保署還是我們自己承辦的這個組就在來規劃這些相關的課程那當然會會邀請我們的專家學者來提供我們的意見在執法上"},{"start":9038.582,"end":9054.482,"text":"對 我現在要講你剛剛有講看起來有講一些方向但我總覺得好像沒有很具體因為附帶決議的內容其實是非常具體的也就是說為了充實相關執法人員相關的一些知識要有海洋保育知識 巡護海洋野生動物的概念環境維護 污染防治"},{"start":9055.103,"end":9072.963,"text":"甚至違反犯罪的偵查還有一部分原住民族嘛因為很多這很關心嘛因為有原住民捕魚的問題還有生物多樣性等等的一些課程訓練時數20小時以上要定期回訓所以看起來它應該是一個完整的課表跟一個機制比如說分幾梯多少人受訓什麼時候來受訓有沒有一些比較具體像這樣子的一個這樣子的設計"},{"start":9075.663,"end":9104.182,"text":"各位報告我們有一個執法的預告是針對這個上課的內容還有課程的時數那目前已經在預告當中這是未來執法的一部分那剛剛海保署副長提到就是整個規劃的部分那我們會後也可以再提供一個資料給委員好你會後提供資料這一個啊另外一個我要講就是說這我們希望喔這個因為我想這樣的事情一定對於海委會一定也有一些新增的工作嘛這個或多或少都有些負擔這個就是大家要同力合作不要把它只是當成海保署的事情"},{"start":9104.522,"end":9128.271,"text":"那這個當然也不會因為實務上第一線是海巡啦海巡大家都知道他其實非常非常的辛苦剛剛在樓下我們海委會業務報我已經講了這個都變第二海軍了那個待遇歸待遇待遇要增加但我覺得除了待遇之外你現在立刻可以做的其實是因應這些新增的工作你應該立刻提供他強而有力的後勤資源換言之海保署這要改變規劃的他要他不只要符合當初的精神他也要很實用"},{"start":9128.931,"end":9154.264,"text":"讓大家用最簡單最輕鬆的方式掌握最多的知識那我今天特別來講請國海院我們在硬體建設讓相關的這些你如果要一個行政法人等等大家用開放的心態來處理那我覺得軟體上國海院應該做研究嘛就本席的了解這聽起來就非常的純學術啦但我希望它不能只是純學術啦你國海院對海洋野生動物的知識啊污染的防治等等應該也有一些研究量對不對"},{"start":9156.354,"end":9182.72,"text":"有啦確實啦我們不是只有做學術啦不是只有做學術很好我就想聽這句話我們是為了政策而研究而學術為了政策而研究對不對那請問你在這個我們上次通過的附帶決議跟海保署規劃課程的內容裡面有沒有跟你們做會商你們可以提供什麼樣的協助我們事實上我們都有保持非常密切的一個聯繫啦針對這個課程裡面的一個設計的一個內涵事實上海保署事實上我們這邊都會有互相會有提供意見好這個"},{"start":9184.813,"end":9208.192,"text":"本席確定就是要今天質詢就是要強調這件事情就是說你還有會所有的體系要通力合作第一線的海巡是最辛苦的所以你們其他部門要給他很強的後勤資源尤其是國海院的部分那剛剛已經講很清楚有在密切的對話那我們就希望盡快的來看到具體的成果所以我希望你剛剛除了你剛剛講的一些資料之外最後這個我們現在支持未來啦這個海報法要上路要執行之後"},{"start":9209.073,"end":9237.978,"text":"支援海保署執法的相關的人數是多少其中有多少會接受相關的海洋保育課程也就是說你現在整個計畫的一個推動的推動的進度啦上課的總時數回訊的機制都要提供相關的數據資料我們希望海溝中心當然是有硬體的提升這當然大家樂觀其成但軟體部分的支援就希望國海院海保署要多費心讓海保法當初修正完畢之後那個初衷可以順利落實可以嗎可以可以好 相關資料你們要多久時間交給大家來參考"},{"start":9240.738,"end":9253.561,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜當然好啊OK好不好那我們就等相關的資料請盡量詳詞可以嗎可以可以好謝謝辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝劉委員的質詢接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們的副主委吳副主委跟陳院長請吳副主委還有郭海韻陳院長"},{"start":9273.36,"end":9274.341,"text":"對要專心 不要分心"},{"start":9276.314,"end":9289.801,"text":"辛苦了 謝謝兩位今天很把握這六分鐘的時間我想我會用不同的面向來看看在未來海科重新成立的這些過程樣樣相向的這個定位我們不要遺漏了非常重要的一塊叫做人文而人文當中吳思瑤最在乎的就是文化"},{"start":9301.306,"end":9321.072,"text":"跟海科中心不能成為outside的面向就是保存跟活化水下的文資我這裡要念一段當初我們在成立海委會的時候蘇貞昌前院長說的一段話他說海洋不只帶給我們漁獲更滋養豐富我們的精神與文化"},{"start":9321.852,"end":9344.031,"text":"一個國家面對海洋的態度 往往影響國家長遠的未來雖然台灣開放海洋 擁抱海洋的起步較晚但是只要我們目標明確我們一定能夠成為一個真正現代化的海洋國家能為我們的疆疆孫孫留下非常豐厚的海洋資產"},{"start":9345.805,"end":9356.715,"text":"所以說呢我今天要跟兩位探討我剛剛聽了很多委員他關切的要成立國家海洋科技中心大家都看到了科技層面科技研發的量能也看到我們在國防建構安全韌性我們要國建國造我們要強化我們的海上生命線的很多巡防它需要人力物力軟體硬體的部件這都是"},{"start":9370.928,"end":9376.597,"text":"提升海洋國家競爭力的重要面向所以Yes我們需要國家海洋科技中心下一頁"},{"start":9377.97,"end":9402.513,"text":"而你們成立這個中心的兩個重要的業務任務當然在船舶實驗室的建置跟調查船的建置那目前都一個118年一個116年所以說我也都支持我也希望都能夠在預算政策法制的面向給你們很大的支持但是呢下一頁"},{"start":9403.803,"end":9429.657,"text":"我們之所以用行政法人就是鬆綁他的人事任用讓我們可以延攬更專業的人才還可以培育然後呢我們可以活化組織可以給予組織還有資金籌措更大的彈性還包括採購那是非常重要的所以我非常支持用行政法人剛剛前面有委員說用行政法人聽起來好像很多弊端好像就會規避監督並沒有"},{"start":9431.858,"end":9459.58,"text":"行政法人我們專業的立委都知道行政法人還是需要接受立法院的監督我過去在教育文化委員會文化部門是最多行政法人的因為就是要讓他專業人才的鬆綁以及組織運用的彈性所以說技術專業人才一次到位我會支持這個條例我會支持這個中心但是不要忘了重要的文化使命下一頁"},{"start":9460.861,"end":9475.151,"text":"文資局文化部的文資局跟我們海委會的國海院強強聯手在2020年就簽訂了水下文資保存的MOU陳院長您是好像剛到任是嗎"},{"start":9476.775,"end":9502.082,"text":"那之前簽署的是前院長 邱永芳前院長當初文化部跟海委會強強聯手就是要跟上聯合國在2001年就已經有的全球都要做水下文資UNESCO甚至有個公約而台灣也進一步在文資法之後我們2016年就訂定了水下文資的專法"},{"start":9502.762,"end":9523.331,"text":"所以這是一個當然文化部帶頭可是新的文化保存、文化再利用還有尤其水下它需要非常多的科技的support才能夠有利於去做水下文資的考古、調查等等當初簽的這個MOU啊這新到任的陳院長你有什麼掌握"},{"start":9526.505,"end":9542.736,"text":"這文化工作上全部掌握全部掌握好那請問有什麼樣具體的進展因為已經簽了五年囉因為其實我們簽了五年我們持續都有跟文化局在做文字局文字局不好意思文字局持續有我們有辦理文字局的一個計畫那這個計畫裡面事實上我們現在目前針對沉船"},{"start":9546.218,"end":9563.165,"text":"還有包括台江區域裡面的一些可能的水下的文資我們都利用我們的科技包括像那個電地組還有包括一些雷達或一些聲納的一些系統裡面我們事實上有去探測它水下可能的一個存在的物品謝謝你的都有掌握好 下一頁"},{"start":9564.185,"end":9581.314,"text":"但都有掌握是真的嗎我希望因為今天如果我們在審這個條例的時候當然當中很重要的就是這個基礎調查的研究船的興建4000噸級的這一艘它當中很重要的一個功能用途就是水下文資的調查"},{"start":9582.475,"end":9607.715,"text":"那台澎的海域目前的水中目標物97筆其中20筆目標物被辨識成為具有文資的意義物六處的沉船處從江金雲一號當然從江金雲一號的發現開始建構了台灣對於水下文資的全部一個翻天覆地的一個新的時代讓我們台灣人知道說那時候是國立歷史博物館帶頭的"},{"start":9609.176,"end":9632.896,"text":"所以讓我們發現說台灣的周遭原來台澎海域有這麼豐富的水下文資從那一個將軍一號的調研考古開始我們水下文資的工作開始往前站所以今天的計畫裡頭不要忘了喔這個4000噸級的研究船的建制計畫當中很重要的是水下文資的調查也是它的重要使命喔下一頁"},{"start":9633.957,"end":9651.649,"text":"那為什麼今天我們在審這個設置條例裡頭海科中心的業務範圍六大項第七項是其他沒有提及任何一個文資的調研的協力不要漏了如果剛剛院長所說都有掌握"},{"start":9652.694,"end":9672.76,"text":"也都有合作那我們在這個設置辦法裡頭就不要讓文化成為outsider下一頁所以請支持好下一頁吳思瑤的版本我會增加一項未來的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例第三條的業務範圍執掌會增加一個水下文資的調查協力應當沒有問題嗎"},{"start":9675.501,"end":9697.617,"text":"好不好支持我的版本然後呢長遠來講是要催生台灣催生一個國家級的水下博物館就在澎湖啊就在澎湖這一個水下博物館的計畫我不曉得現在進展到哪裡因為今天沒有文化部的人列席啊這個水下博物館的這個計畫請問院長您大概可以知說明一下嗎"},{"start":9698.646,"end":9716.134,"text":"我印象中 因為好像是在白沙啦澎湖的白沙那一塊好 進展到哪裡你不能講印象中 你是意料中的沒有啦 現在我可以說嗎這個藥物主要是屬於文化部的我知道 我知道所以我今天來就教於你就是說你們不要忘了文化的任務好 歐陽姐 步步都是文化部"},{"start":9717.318,"end":9720.001,"text":"那如果文化部繼續朝因為當初是希望2040年啦時程還很久啦如果說文化部全力的我當然會對文化部門持續的倡議請你們全力來協力"},{"start":9740.3,"end":9758.917,"text":"畢竟科學的研究有助於文化資產的調研尤其水下的考古而且最新的國際文化的資產的保存也就強化文化資產的韌性都需要借助科技而且科技不只是在保存端它可以在後端的典藏"},{"start":9759.978,"end":9771.609,"text":"策展推廣的那一塊用科技的導入來協助他能夠讓更多人來親近各類的文化資產譬如說科技的導入我們的水"},{"start":9772.901,"end":9792.143,"text":"水下國家的博物館計畫我們可能是陸地的那種基地型不是一般國際做真的水下型所以必須藉助科技的研發來幫助大家可以用AR VR各種新的科技技術來體驗水下的文化資產我今天時間到了所以我提醒我提醒再提醒"},{"start":9793.484,"end":9819.615,"text":"離島有非常強大的文化觀光的優勢跟實力如果能夠建構水下文資台灣成為世界的重要國家的話發展離島的建設就不需要靠離島建設條例去替中國洗產地了所以你們有非常重要的文化使命來副主委您要補充謝謝委員的提醒我們會跟文化部通力來合作然後往這個目標大家能夠盡快的達到這樣的目標"},{"start":9820.976,"end":9848.749,"text":"那因為那個院長您也剛到任我提醒回去review當初跟文資局的簽署的MOU我當然理解這個主責是文化部但是在一個新設組織的誕生的過程我一定要叮嚀你們文化不要成為outsider我們都要有文化思維好不好那給你們鼓勵謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝吳司堯委員我們現在呢依先前的宣告先休息五分鐘再繼續諮詢"},{"start":10187.298,"end":10195.923,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們有請我們王宏威王委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請我們吳副主委有請吳副主委還有我們的副人事長副人事長"},{"start":10219.168,"end":10240.159,"text":"請問一下我們這個海洋科技營運中心請問一下未來我們成立的話一年的預算會是多少錢目前預估115年下半年會需要到6000萬的經費然後116年大概3億116到118大概差不多3億左右"},{"start":10241.164,"end":10257.827,"text":"所以正常的话因为你这个115年是因为下半年成立所以正常的话一年的预算是超过3亿对不对好那我请问一下那么请问一下我们的中心的原额预估原额是多少"},{"start":10258.839,"end":10277.833,"text":"100人100人所以未來是一個100人的原額的業務然後一年要花到3億我看到資料是317118是要花到3億6對不對那這個部分這個錢預算是主要是由公務支出嘛"},{"start":10278.593,"end":10287.542,"text":"主要是公務支出所以我們把它可以視為是未來我們政府要負擔一年大概3億6一個100元額的一個中心好 我再請教一下我們現在海委會的員額屬於警察文職人員的部分"},{"start":10298.853,"end":10311.982,"text":"現在我們看到的資料預算原額是4248人現有的原額人數是3653人所以呢事實上我們現在不足原來的預算原額對吧對還沒有全部進行"},{"start":10314.909,"end":10332.055,"text":"好 所以如果按照這個數字來看的話我們海委會其實如果我們要充實我們相關的業務要充實我們相關的員額其實我們並沒有到頂我們還有差額大概將近600人將近600人所以"},{"start":10336.716,"end":10352.151,"text":"夫人市長所以我們如果今天要用同樣的業務如果在海委會覺得說我需要有這些業務然後我的其實我可以用的員額人數更多將近600人是吧"},{"start":10354.271,"end":10372.077,"text":"謝謝委員提示那我跟委員報告一下因為他這個差了590幾人是因為海巡署跟海委會他有提報海巡特考高補考試的職缺那這個部分每年都有固定的考試那我們在今年114年2月的時候因為海巡署他有那個增建造艦的計畫"},{"start":10373.897,"end":10392.59,"text":"那這個部分因為艦跨要交了所以接下來我們依照他每一條船應該配置多少人這部分還有核定增加原格海巡署 海委會未來他們會再提就這些人的規劃再提報海巡特考的人員進去所以這個等於是說考試前所以這個意思是說因為你要補足假如說你要補足這將近六百人他們需要考試"},{"start":10399.875,"end":10418.494,"text":"但是如果你到這個中心的話就不需要考試是吧因為這兩個是不同的身份屬性兩個是不同這邊的是屬於海巡的基本上就是等於是公務員那那個是行政法人所自己禁用的那他們的要求資格等等那兩個是不一樣完全不一樣"},{"start":10418.834,"end":10436.787,"text":"好可是問題是說當我們成立行政法人我們就要去看就是原來這個行政法人他的業務到底我原來海委會或者我原來海委會所成立的其他的行政法人他的業務有沒有涵蓋好我們來看一下"},{"start":10438.292,"end":10445.337,"text":"這裡面就是有沒有業務重疊的地方譬如講你現在國家海洋科技運營中心你們現在有所謂的八大業務但是我們海委會還成立了"},{"start":10454.503,"end":10475.058,"text":"包含的這個就是海洋研究院還有我們國家實驗研究院的台灣海洋科技研究中心所以如果我們去對比一下相關的業務按照你們的八大業務裡面起碼有很多的業務事實上包含國家海洋研究院"},{"start":10475.879,"end":10494.772,"text":"或者是我們國家實驗研究院的海洋科技研究中心或者是我們國家研究院的船舶及海洋產業研發中心等等也都有相關的業務所以我想請教的就是"},{"start":10496.161,"end":10506.445,"text":"我們所要發展的這些業務沒有不好但是它中間有沒有一再的成立行政法人而讓他的業務有跌床架屋的一個問題因為我剛剛特別講一個原額一百人的我們這個中心"},{"start":10514.648,"end":10535.937,"text":"那未來一年都要花到三億六那事實上你去看我們現在的行政中心我們現在很多的行政法人中心幾乎大家都沒有什麼自籌的能力雖然說有一些自償有些你可以募款或者是你甚至可以舉債但舉債也一定要有自償性所以我們成立越來越多的所謂的行政法人"},{"start":10538.658,"end":10565.926,"text":"那過去所詬病的就是成立行政法人之後他用的錢是誰的錢 仍然是公務預算他並不會因此他自己有我們不要說他有什麼變成金積母啦他至少要自給自足 也沒有絕大部分的行政法人都沒有自給自足的能力他全部用的是公務預算好 那如果他的業務有其特殊性必要性 我們覺得也OK可是如果按照這個業務來看的話這八大業務"},{"start":10568.907,"end":10586.351,"text":"那你的那個國家海洋研究院呢還有國家實驗研究院也都有這些業務啊那我請問一下原來的行政法人你也沒有裁撤啊你也沒有裁撤然後每天生一些新的業務然後說我必須要再增加這些業務一年要花掉3億6每一次我們在講說我們有一個法條他就會出來說我們這個有沒有裁員呢這個裁員來自哪裡啊對不對"},{"start":10598.314,"end":10626.842,"text":"一年316也不是一個小數字啊而且是原額100元所以這個有關業務重疊的部分那個副主委有沒有說法經費的部分不會年年因為等到我們自主營運之後呢未來有一些受託的業務呢也可以增加收入的來源會降低政府的這樣子的經費的意志那你預估未來316有多少他是可以自籌的可以告訴我們成立一個新的中心財務規劃非常非常重要"},{"start":10627.302,"end":10642.437,"text":"好 那一年316 那麼有多少的經費可以來自於自籌我本來是想說會逐年的可以來降低政府的這個預租的一個經費然後詳細的估算的部分當然那個國海院那邊他會去做一個整理這樣不行喔 對"},{"start":10643.058,"end":10670.185,"text":"我意思就是說我們現在政府因為不管是有一些新的機構成立或者是尤其這個行政法人我覺得未來其實在財務的部分要有一個比較嚴謹的估算不然你跟我講說每個要成立的時候都說我們一定會想辦法自籌財源我們一定會想辦法來降低我們公務預算的這個負擔可是後來不但沒有降低有的還越來越多"},{"start":10671.445,"end":10689.813,"text":"是不是所以我在這邊希望你們可不可以用最短的時間至少一個禮拜的時間能夠把你們有關於未來的財務規劃比較詳細的資料提供給包含我們的內政委員會跟我們司法法治委員會可以嗎可不可以兩個禮拜"},{"start":10692.234,"end":10713.519,"text":"兩個禮拜可以啊因為我覺得這個時間我希望你們提出來的是因為提出來它未來就是我們可以去追蹤考核的嘛不然每個人都是這樣子嘛想要成立成立之後你也關不掉啊所以我剛才講啊請你們也好好去研究啊跟其他的國史院也好或者這個海洋研究院也好"},{"start":10713.999,"end":10719.705,"text":"妳有沒有跌床架屋的地方呢有沒有其他地方 它緣何可以刪減呢不然我們養人 養人 再養人養了一些人 兩個業務也差不多是要打架嗎 還是大家要互別苗頭呢是不是 因為"},{"start":10729.996,"end":10749.519,"text":"國家政府的資源有限這些業務我都承認它是重要的可是同樣的業務有三組人馬在做那就是不對的 那就叫做沒有效率那說到更難聽一點 大家會覺得說你們是不是要去酬庸啊都會有這樣的質疑 好不好"},{"start":10751.28,"end":10777.028,"text":"這個業務會不會重置的部分事實上我們都一直有在盤點而且我們也知道很多委員都關切這個議題那我們這個海科中心事實上對於這個調查船整體包括我們未來4000噸的這個調查船這個是其他的中心所沒有的然後我們的國家船模實驗室未來的營運這個也是其他的中心所沒有的包括那個國科會下屬的這個這個實驗院的這個中心的部分他主要是佛大學跟學術單位啦所以"},{"start":10778.268,"end":10790.296,"text":"我們都有去盤點這些不要去重置這個資源那這個對於國家的整個關鍵核心技術包括這些船模實驗的本土化是非常重要的一個旅程好 我跟你講我就在講我沒有說這業務不重要好 那你這兩個禮拜請給我"},{"start":10793.999,"end":10803.208,"text":"比如說你海洋調查及實驗技術之研究開發是你第一個業務嗎對不對可是問題是海洋研究院也有同樣業務那請問這兩個業務有什麼不同可不可以告訴我一下譬如說國家海洋調查船的營運管理這麼重要重要"},{"start":10810.836,"end":10835.922,"text":"好 那可是問題是國家海洋研究院 船舶機海洋產業研發中心也有同樣的業務那你們兩個業務 兩個單位的業務又有什麼不一樣呢好不好 你這兩個禮拜可以把這個業務有沒有重疊有沒有疊床架屋的問題也能幫忙理清好不好我們提供報告 然後做一個比較詳細的說明美 我跟你講 真的一年316 我總是希望我們的錢花在刀口上好不好 好 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10838.664,"end":10852.106,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員這個早上的委員到現在其實大家相同的問題都很關注啦所以這個兩個禮拜請提供資料給內政委員會跟司法法制委員會接下來我們有請王逸川委員質詢我們請副主委請副主委跟院長好關海陳院長"},{"start":10869.525,"end":10872.972,"text":"請教一下這個國家海洋研究院的陳院長"},{"start":10874.52,"end":10900.499,"text":"在這一個新的海洋科技營運中心的這個設置條例的第三條有寫到中心的業務這些業務會有一些跟你現在組長的這一個院研究院的業務會有重疊對吧那這個重疊的部分你站在一個現在是一個國家海洋研究院的院長的角度這業務大家接下來怎麼分工"},{"start":10902.672,"end":10925.562,"text":"謝謝委員提問其實講重疊是文字上可是事實上我們在執行上是不一樣的國海院主要還是負責所謂的一個研究的一個規劃政策面那現在目前成立的行政法人主要是要想要實地能夠執行全海域的真正的一個調查全海域的調查我想強調這個沒辦法在國海院做沒辦法因為我們現在國海院因為全海院調查要傳這是傳源"},{"start":10928.275,"end":10947.808,"text":"我講說如果調查船的部分 這次要船員聘僱的是船長、輪機長、大管還有包括探測長實施這些專業科技的部分船某的部分也沒辦法 因為船某是涉及非常高精明度的船某的實驗 還有包括設備的安裝還有包括實驗數據 還有包括我們要水下載具的參數這一部分現在目前來講 國海院裡面的人力現在編制只有78名"},{"start":10956.474,"end":10966.337,"text":"而且當時的郭海銘你們的人也不是在做這些事情那現在新的成立了這個營運中心這裡頭顯然會不會有公務員嗎營運中心沒有沒有公務員沒有"},{"start":10971.257,"end":10991.457,"text":"OK那第二個啊是這一個你剛剛講原來編制有100人100人含船員嗎應該說我們沒有應該說中心裡面事實上是沒有編制的只是說我們預估基本的預估船母跟調查船需要的人因為你這一艘船蓋完一定有至少基本的這個配備的船員好那100人含船員"},{"start":10992.317,"end":11020.235,"text":"對 海船員好 那接下來我看你頭比較具有特色是那個4000噸的那一艘嘛因為100噸跟300噸現在各海洋聯盟的大學應該也有100噸跟300噸了或者是商業的調查船有嗎 有所以你們做這個100噸跟300噸做什麼用前海域的調查 還有包括像吳斯堯委員有提到不是 那這些現在海洋聯盟的大學沒辦法做嘛"},{"start":11021.404,"end":11039.078,"text":"聯盟大學他們主要是做這個現在國科會下面就是有四招嘛大概都是一千噸八百多噸以上的他們主要是做這個科學研究的各個老師去跟國會申請這個所謂的傳奇那我們現在目前有做一些100噸跟300噸那你們這個100噸跟300噸的接下來這些老師申請研究的時候會來跟你們申請嗎"},{"start":11044.224,"end":11072.53,"text":"自己國海運會編預算來執行全海域的調查所以你們不接受其他人來要求嗎應該說目前我們優先順序上還是以我們本要執行本預算的這個全海域調查當然如果說有其他的一個船級上的一個需求的話我們當然也樂意就是說可以跟學術單位合作提到你們的這個收入嘛那你們如果要接受其他單位的委託或者是借你們的船其實這個船本來是海委會也不是這個中心的啦那"},{"start":11073.63,"end":11080.978,"text":"就要有收入啊 那這個收入當然你就是要會去跟那個海洋聯盟那些或者國科會他們的船會有競爭啊"},{"start":11083.846,"end":11107.061,"text":"應該說現在目前國科會系統裡面大概學員單位的申請大概只有78可以安排到傳期所以事實上這個是有缺口的所以事實上我們執行的任務跟國科會的那個系統裡面的對象是不同的那我們現在目前本院在執行全海域調查裡面事實上我們也跟內政部還有包括經濟部都有很密切的一個合作因為內政部本身也會做那個地會調查"},{"start":11108.041,"end":11126.331,"text":"那經濟部他有時候因為一些業務上的一個需要也會做一些海洋的一些資源的一個探測那所以在這部分裡面我們互相的一個計畫上的一個支援事實上是會向互補的那如果未來調查團如果能夠成立的話新建完工的話我們希望能夠把台灣整個全海域的一個調查能夠把它整個完工的一個"},{"start":11126.431,"end":11143.297,"text":"那這些現有的調達船不管是國家的或者是商業的或者是接下來你們這營運中心的100噸、300噸跟4000噸的船每一艘船的分工啊這個行政院有政務委員在整合嗎"},{"start":11147.547,"end":11169.638,"text":"海委會自己本身的三艘調查團部分我們這邊跟其他的包括國科會的包括其他大學的應該是未來啦 未來我們會期待成立一個所謂的研究船的一個平台那針對這個所謂的需求端還有包括調查船的這個船期的供應端裡面我們希望能夠建置一個"},{"start":11169.738,"end":11189.741,"text":"我是建議你們主動跟行政院報告,請行政院找政務委員出來整合因為接下來的調查,包括學校老師的調查,不要大家弄到最後變成一種狀況就是找商業船比較容易,或者找國科會比較容易,找營運中心很麻煩"},{"start":11190.322,"end":11210.635,"text":"好 就是不要這種 就是到最後還要去競爭啦 這個競爭是沒有意義的啦那第二個這個4000噸的這一艘啊 接下來會是台灣現有的最大艘嘛 對不對最大艘調查船那這個操作這一艘船的 就是這個營運中心不會委外"},{"start":11214.394,"end":11223.344,"text":"那你們100個人裡頭 就是說你們原有編制這100嘛不是編制就是說你們期待會有100的嘛那會不會這些人到最後他們是在發包啊我先再跟委員澄清一下 我們現在100的你們是沒有包括4000噸的船員喔"},{"start":11234.151,"end":11262.912,"text":"因為我們現在沒有顧到那麼遠因為那個4000噸大概會在118年的時候才完工所以我們現在比較穩健啦穩健的推估我為什麼這樣問這些同仁接下來進到營運中心的同仁會不會再辦招標啊不會啦 因為本身我們就是拚顧船員啊那你們這個營運中心會有設研究人員嗎沒有應該說船舶實驗室會有啦應該說裡面的編制會有船舶跟釣船員船舶實驗室會再有委託大學老師做實驗嗎"},{"start":11264.451,"end":11267.172,"text":"因為交通部運輸研究所雖然他是這個公務體系但是他的大部分現在的研究員都在做發包工作"},{"start":11281.36,"end":11303.631,"text":"都在委託學校老師 顧問公司做研究那就失去了這個設立的意義嘛所以你們如果這個營運中心啊盡可能自己培養自己的研究人員才能夠把人才留住嘛不要到這種高階的研究人員博士啊 助理教授級進來到這個中心他竟然在辦理發包的工作這個就沒有什麼意義了好 謝謝謝謝王一川委員我們接下來請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":11317.853,"end":11338.928,"text":"主席有請吳副主委 請吳副主委副主委好那今天司法內政聯席審查國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案那我們的海委會管弊林主委沒有出席"},{"start":11339.946,"end":11368.953,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個主委有時間去參加民進黨人民式投家的宣講會來為所謂的大罷免助政那卻不出席海委會所屬的行政法案設置條例的審議那也算是一個比較特殊的時間管理主委在內政委員會業務報告那我現在請教您 請教副主委海巡署去年跟今年對預算各多少海巡署 那個謝副可以請我們副署長來說"},{"start":11372.532,"end":11398.701,"text":"委員好我們大概都是兩百多億兩百多少我印象中是兩百三十幾億你是海委會你還要靠印象我是海巡署我是說海巡署你還要靠印象精確數字再跟委員報告你是海巡署你的預算編列還要靠印象還精確數字會後再報告嗎有這種事情嗎不會吧"},{"start":11407.701,"end":11415.825,"text":"好啦 你也示範一個我們的海巡署 去年編列253.56億嘛 沒錯吧今年編列288.35億嘛 對不對增加34.78億嘛 對不對我都沒錯嘛 對不對自己的預算我覺得還是要多了解一點啦我覺得"},{"start":11429.808,"end":11451.604,"text":"這個真的也不是 這對一個部門 我在部門待過這對部門本身來講common sense對部門來說是common sense如果這個都不知道 我覺得是有點遺憾謝謝委員指教那主委在3月29號參加高雄廠的人民士投價政策宣講會他說海巡署的預算被刪了8.27億元 對不對被凍結8.85億元"},{"start":11458.55,"end":11487.149,"text":"沒錯嘛那因為預算被刪減所以他認為說8艘海巡艦艇無法養護睡休不能出門那海巡官兵拋神槍救生衣戰術背心防彈頭盔都受到影響那管主也說在海上遇到對方有武器時海巡弟兄保護自己防彈背心防彈頭盔怎麼能刪很不甘預算被刪是刪掉海巡弟兄姊妹的平安"},{"start":11488.854,"end":11496.716,"text":"我剛剛看到也跟您在就教討論 實際上我們去年跟今年的預算編列從253億到288億 增加了34.78億預算比去年增加 結果防彈背心 防彈頭盔都沒有了"},{"start":11512.481,"end":11530.107,"text":"我不知道那是以前就沒有防彈背心防彈頭盔還是現在我們還循屬要把防彈背心跟防彈頭盔拿掉呢以前預算更少的時候這些都在那結果現在預算更多了反而不在"},{"start":11532.482,"end":11554.75,"text":"包委員 因為在編預算的時候 我們有不同科目別有的有增加 有的有減少我就問你防彈背心 防彈頭盔嘛 主委講的啊是 這部分我們除了8億好啦 去年有沒有嘛去年都有 也有今年沒有了嗎那個數目不夠 所以我們會減相減相啊我告訴你啦 多了34億"},{"start":11556.946,"end":11567.477,"text":"超過百分之十以上了啦預算增加啦那還跟我講說連防彈背心 防彈頭盔它是被刪掉喔還不是營養不夠喔講白了就是無病呻吟"},{"start":11575.39,"end":11592.065,"text":"也就是配合所謂的大罷免做的一系列的造謠那我想請問 沒關係啦我覺得海巡弟兄的安全我們還是最在乎的嘛 對不對那既然我們主委一直大聲哭窮那我想請問海委會跟海巡署的預算解答案什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":11596.307,"end":11620.597,"text":"我們目前正在整理那個解通報告因為有146案那其中有126案要專案報告所以必須要仔細的去檢視這些委員所要求的內容所以目前還在處理報告當中現在幾月啊現在4月我看起來不急嘛海巡弟兄的防彈頭盔防彈背心海巡弟兄的所有東西你們竟然都說凍結案"},{"start":11623.052,"end":11641.727,"text":"預算增加的人還說凍結衝擊到結果現在跟我講說都還在準備沒藥沒金啦那我想問嘛都還在準備下禮拜可以嗎可以把解凍案拿出來嗎作為主管"},{"start":11653.229,"end":11676.474,"text":"這個連這個都不知道就沒準備嘛還要幕僚跟你講這麼重大的事如果是我以前當政府官員解凍案什麼時候送出來我會不知道還要靠幕僚就跟剛剛預算多少還要去查資料要匯後報告因為行政院現在自行調整的三點數好啦我跟你講行政院跟你們下的指令就是不要放解凍案啦我知道啦就這麼簡單啦所以你們就在拖嘛那我要問你齁"},{"start":11680.956,"end":11708.91,"text":"下個月可以送出來嗎?給我一個期間好不好?20秒過去了,給不出期間反無奈的海巡弟兄的安全,照你們的說法如果是被凍結有影響那麼大的話你們無藥無菌"},{"start":11710.899,"end":11729.13,"text":"連下個月你都沒辦法告訴我說 把那個解斷案提出來那兩個月後可以嗎還是到年底好了 年底提好不好要不然年底提 還是大罷免結束後再提是不是大罷免結束後就會提了這個沒關係啦沒關係啊 大有關係拖到現在都沒有拿出來我們都關心海巡弟兄啊"},{"start":11739.517,"end":11768.291,"text":"可是在解凍案這件事情上 抱歉我沒有看到海委會跟海巡署的關係 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員的質詢這個解凍案 這個確實這個部分 你們說一共一百幾案這個工程就好大了 這個工程好大還要在院會交下來 還要召委再排案來 接下來我們有請高金素梅委員"},{"start":11773.871,"end":11788.085,"text":"有請副主委有請副主委副主委你在立法院多久了大聲一點嗎委員是說在海委會對兩年多"},{"start":11789.016,"end":11814.776,"text":"所以妳也是算是資深的公務員對不對我是基層公務員上來好 我在立法院23年了我真的第一次看到我們的行政院可以開口的跟我們所有的行政部門說不要提出解凍案這是太離譜了我看到妳剛剛都無奈委員146案我們的確需要時間不管幾案我們審完預算到現在已經多久了"},{"start":11815.692,"end":11840.785,"text":"因為今年公告的時間多久了今天公告是3月才公告嘛 對不對好了 不要在這裡辯解了啦你們竟然覺得我們的海巡地胸安全是這麼重要你們早就應該要提出來了這是我在立法院23年來已經開議了然後從來不排解動案這是莫名其妙好 今天我要審查你的海洋委員會的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例"},{"start":11841.545,"end":11861.259,"text":"我看到了你們從專業人才 組織彈性 政府監督 還有公共利用來說明設置行政法人的優勢我覺得呢 潛藏了非常多的質疑的地方首先在業務方面 我們來談一下為了國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建置計畫 已經有6年囉從111年到116年"},{"start":11865.362,"end":11870.024,"text":"然後還有海洋基礎資料調查船興建計劃112年到118年6年的計劃但是我們看一下我們去年在審查預算的時候我們就發現國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建設計劃從111年開始112年就大幅修正你們的計劃要調整13億餘元並且你們要展延期程18個月"},{"start":11893.672,"end":11911.852,"text":"113年你們的執行率就不如預期了呀再來看海洋基礎資料調查船興建計畫從112年就有預算執行率非常低的問題請問副主委為什麼不先解討這兩個計畫執行的問題反而急於意識要設置行政法人請簡短說明"},{"start":11916.036,"end":11918.158,"text":"因為在施工的過程當中也發現第一個整個地基的部分因為靠海"},{"start":11934.455,"end":11948.95,"text":"包括所謂的工程我們那個整個基樁要往下再挖深還有包括基柱要再加所以這以後不會有形成問題嗎不會你席在百元成立以後你就可以就不會有這個地層下旋的問題了嗎所以我們現在工程的部分就是要解決這個"},{"start":11951.132,"end":11967.682,"text":"我們可以看到你的計畫才剛上路就不斷的更改一直加錢還拖延時程結果你們的執行率是一塌糊塗然後接著我要跟你來談人的問題我們有看到非常多的行政法人董事長不是部長就是政委"},{"start":11968.522,"end":11992.734,"text":"不是副首長就是政事整個法人變成了監督機關的延伸而我們行政法人設立本來他的目的是要補足政府的不足民間的不及重點是要非常專業要中立還有有效率請問一下副主委我們的海洋科技營運中心的董事長會有主委還是底下的政事兼任"},{"start":11994.616,"end":12020.995,"text":"請問目前的規劃是由主委對嘛這個因為監督機關也要討論說誰比較合適啦好啦我知道啦我要講的是規劃設置好公開公平公正的人選招聘機制就應該是要來好好監督行政法人結果呢你們的這個部長次長參加了你要怎麼樣監督呢"},{"start":12022.216,"end":12035.463,"text":"然後整個行政法人搞成行政機關的黑機關這還有獨立性專業性可言嗎你們雖然表面上說人事任用表面上是有彈性的實際上我們看到一片綠油油你們更誇張的是還說規劃編制要100人然後未來可以依照營運情況來增加"},{"start":12046.687,"end":12061.059,"text":"你們為什麼不讓人認為這是預留人事大門然後方便塞人養人的計畫我們來看一下以前往例行政法人長期以來一直以來就有行政不章的問題我們在114年度審預算的時候我們看到的是"},{"start":12066.523,"end":12088.428,"text":"國家表演藝術中心國家電影視聽文化中心國家太空中心文化內容策進院等等多個行政法人通通被發現幾乎都是要全面仰賴政府的補助他的收入結構極度單一更諷刺的是連他們自己提出的績效評鑑報告他們都非常的承認也坦承說自籌裁員嚴重不足"},{"start":12095.151,"end":12104.28,"text":"這個完全是背離了行政法人 應該要有的自主營運還有永續發展的精神請問一下 設置行政法人的目的是為了什麼?"},{"start":12106.056,"end":12133.272,"text":"這個部分當然一開始需要有政府支援的挹注啦因為這個是一個國家的關鍵核心你不要再講這些了當時在成立這些法人的時候他們也都這麼講啊可是呢他們現在講什麼他們現在都講說我們的居校請願報告他說自籌裁員嚴重不足耶那你們以後會不會自籌裁員也嚴重不足呢請問一下會有一個估算報告會提供到這個委員會來"},{"start":12134.457,"end":12149.912,"text":"所以你的意思說以後不會營運不足囉你們會變成另外一個政府的負擔請問會不會 如果會怎麼辦我要提醒副主委啦國家海洋科技營運中心在115年雖然你們只有編6300多萬但是118年預算你們就膨脹到了3.6億"},{"start":12157.62,"end":12181.58,"text":"而且這還是預估喔這樣的征服不僅僅令人質疑預算控管的合理性尤其你們一半的費用都用在人事費也是讓人擔心未來會不會變成一個高耗能低效益的行政法人然後放眼一看全部都是綠油油副主委我告訴你我們不是反對海洋科技"},{"start":12182.501,"end":12188.727,"text":"我們也沒有反對但是呢我們是要監督而且你們做的事情是要配套然後我們真的不希望它是一個掛羊頭賣狗肉的機構如果你們這一套邏輯成立的話那麼以後是不是每一個部會都可以設立行政法人那麼以後立法院要怎麼實質監督你們"},{"start":12205.743,"end":12228.612,"text":"我們的這個傳播實驗室跟調查團的部分這個專業人力就是專業人才的那個需求度的部分非常的高那這個不是一般的就是說考試啊或什麼禁用可以你剛剛都已經說了啦剛剛也有委員在剛剛也有委員在質詢你們這部分所以最後我要說的是請你們把制度設計清楚"},{"start":12229.352,"end":12252.689,"text":"把責任理清楚然後把財政影響講清楚然後再來談立法最後人民的納稅錢不是給執政黨隨便拿來亂花用的我們看到以前的行政法人的績效不彰就可以清楚知道我不希望你們未來成立之後又變成另外一個這個不彰的行政法人可以嗎"},{"start":12253.89,"end":12266.418,"text":"請你們負責任請你們負責任好不好請你們把我剛剛以上講的這幾個通通收來立法院了之後我們再來評估要不要立法我們的立法宣布委員支持 謝謝"},{"start":12270.245,"end":12292.62,"text":"謝謝高菁委員 接下來請徐宇珍委員 徐宇珍委員不在徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在鄭正前 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在岳元之 岳元之 岳元之委員不在"},{"start":12294.025,"end":12309.497,"text":"這樣就都不來了 好 來我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料會以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及聯席"},{"start":12313.381,"end":12337.831,"text":"那這樣就今天所有提的沒有沒有沒有我們本次的會議就到此結束了那我們所提的書面質詢軍列錄徐宇貞委員所提書面質詢有提嗎軍列錄記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那我們本次會議"},{"start":12339.051,"end":12353.457,"text":"到此結束 哎呀 你剛才說來 我說結束你怎麼來來 請徐 人都還沒走啦徐議員質詢 來 三位我還沒說完啦川伯白他還沒跟你說看你那個氣喘聲那麼大就是很盡責 多給你一分鐘"},{"start":12369.76,"end":12386.999,"text":"感謝主席我先處理一下會議時間 上午會議時間我們繼續進行到所有委員登記發言 詢問結束為止接著請齊信維質詢謝謝主席 本席請副主委請吳副主委"},{"start":12390.859,"end":12392.94,"text":"副主委今天我們要審這個"},{"start":12408.269,"end":12430.558,"text":"國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例草案我們想請問一下國家海洋科技中心那現在因為有國科會海洋中心所以我不知道說這兩個的區隔您可以簡單說一下嗎國科會那個國實驗下設的中心比較是佛學術研究跟學校在做申請的"},{"start":12431.238,"end":12446.731,"text":"那我們的這個海科中心未來會比較針對那個船模實驗室以及這個調查船的營運管理當然也會受海委會的一些督導然後執行一些事項所以兩個是有層次上的一些區隔"},{"start":12447.392,"end":12465.024,"text":"好 那因為我們看到你們提的這個報告報告裡面兩大目標嘛一個是提升我國海洋科技能力第二個是厚植海洋科技研究能量那當然您剛剛講的大概是你們五大效益裡面的前三項 沒有錯"},{"start":12466.686,"end":12486.759,"text":"滿足完整船模試驗需求還有發展本土關鍵的核心技術還有建構國家海洋調查船隊沒有錯但是我本席也很好奇因為你還有第四點加速海域基礎資料建置所以這個部分"},{"start":12488.393,"end":12505.864,"text":"因為剛好我念的碩博士都是整個全球海洋面的不管近海還是海洋還是遠洋就是整個大洋的這方面的研究所以我想請問那你們這個列在第四點有沒有相關的人可以來做這一項的說明"},{"start":12509.788,"end":12521.222,"text":"報告委員那加速海域基礎資料調查的一個建制主要就是因為其實我們現在一直在建制當中的我們現在目前國海院本身有設置一個國家海洋資料庫我是國際海洋院院長"},{"start":12524.944,"end":12546.313,"text":"現在我們本身就有在建置海域基礎資料了包括所有包括本院的計劃還有其他單位的這個計劃案所收集的這個海域的一個資料都有做建置的然後包括我們設計一個國家海洋資料庫然後第二點就是說如果我們未來中心成立的話我們本身有調查船那調查船就可以更有系統的一般所謂的研究船嗎"},{"start":12546.773,"end":12568.885,"text":"對 就研究船 對 就是可以有更有系統的在去整個全海域的一個區域作業的規劃調查那會發展一些技術嗎因為就我本席了解好像現在很多技術都是跟美國 跟NOAA在買的我們現在目前調查船裡面所配置的科儀這一部分是會有構置這個比較尖端的一個科儀的部分那這部分是不是有再做進一步的技術研發"},{"start":12570.049,"end":12599.275,"text":"所以其實這個海洋委員會的海洋科技營運中心它主要就還是為了我們那個船舶的因為你們本來這些基本的建制一直都有在海洋研究院就有了所以這一個它主要還是這個整個船舶實驗室或是發展這個核心技術那我想請教一下那個你們這邊有設立董事長董事長他有需要一些專業嗎還是其實不用"},{"start":12600.348,"end":12609.518,"text":"我們這個是行政法人現在國內行政法人的立法體會有監督機關的首長都是無給職的來做一個擔任主要是負責監督機關會來負責監督這個行政法人"},{"start":12613.263,"end":12628.795,"text":"所以你們這個所謂國家海洋科技營運中心像海委會也會要購置所謂的無人機不管是空中的還是水底下的你們都會需要購置那像這個部分你們在未來這個營運中心"},{"start":12631.598,"end":12645.618,"text":"開始之後這個部分會讓我們對採購這一些對海洋科技跟海洋整個的監控會有幫助嗎因為剛好我們今天在內政委員會是海委會嘛那我們這個"},{"start":12649.15,"end":12673.798,"text":"從112年到今年114年我想你們知道我們採購的這個無人機我們跟廠商簽約了兩億多結果到今年本來應該要交貨了結果呢發現這個不敷使用可能要毀約了要解約了那像這個未來我們如果有這個海洋科技營運中心的話那是不是可以就我們比較不會就這樣這個好像就"},{"start":12677.796,"end":12707.148,"text":"到了第三年突然錢也損失了然後我們人等於這個進度我們採購的無人機也沒有辦法達成我們預期目標謝謝委員那有關於無人機部分我們現在目前調查船的規劃裡面是沒有的那我們調查船主要是做海上的調查所以會有配置下一些我的意思就是說你是寫說海洋科技營運中心所以你們其實應該就是大概也不叫海洋科技可能就是只是要"},{"start":12707.808,"end":12736.467,"text":"做這個船而已不一定 還有船模船模也是很重要的一塊就相關的嘛 船模實驗嘛船模事實上非常重要的一塊裡面會包括關鍵核心本土關鍵技術核心的一個建制所以你們這個並不這名稱很大啦海洋 國家海洋科技營運中心但實際上你大概就是只做船模我們現在國家沒有自己的船模實驗室啦那很多的實驗還要跑到國外去那你應該成立一個船模"},{"start":12737.327,"end":12762.058,"text":"但為了傳模實驗室跟調查團經費給下去 人力給下去不就差不多可以人才的部分需要專業性度非常高所以我們必須要用一個比較彈性的行政法人的方式來把這些人才實驗室也可以聘很多的人才吧但我們現在是國海院如果在國海院底下它是有機關員額的限制還有禁用的一個管道的限制所以沒有辦法在現在國海院裡面處理"},{"start":12762.938,"end":12776.348,"text":"好 了解 我想這個大家可能也可以來深思好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信儀委員的質詢本次會議到此結束我們現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}