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11:20:55","會議時間":"2025-12-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「軍人薪資待遇結構現行作法檢討及未來調整規劃」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.782218750000002,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.650343750000005,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.133468750000006,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.078468750000006,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.36659375,"end":77.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.06096875,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.93409375,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.29909375000001,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.85909375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":144.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.44284375,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.22721875000002,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.97346875000002,"end":164.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.00221875,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.25846875000002,"end":168.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.96159375000002,"end":179.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.78346875,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.52159375000002,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.55471875,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.56284375,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.27534375000002,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.16971875000002,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.85659375,"end":226.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.66221875000002,"end":226.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.67909375000002,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.97846875000002,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.72409375,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.99409375000002,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.05284375000002,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.27471875,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.16909375,"end":261.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.08284375,"end":264.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.01909375,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.69346875,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.16846875000005,"end":314.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.17159375,"end":322.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.08596875,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.84096875,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.81471875,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.86284375,"end":357.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.40534375000004,"end":379.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.54971875,"end":381.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.06409375000004,"end":388.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.22346875000005,"end":442.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.24784375,"end":394.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.36596875000004,"end":394.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.72034375000004,"end":394.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.03596875000005,"end":402.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.22409375,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.70471875000004,"end":444.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.55659375000005,"end":457.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.98471875,"end":465.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.02596875,"end":479.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.16909375,"end":468.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.57346875,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.96534375000005,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.73659375000005,"end":493.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.06346875,"end":501.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.08034375000005,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.18034375,"end":517.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.05971875,"end":527.543468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謝主席麻煩部長有請顧部長"},{"start":14.989,"end":31.248,"text":"我先追蹤一下我們之前在11月13號一樣討論的是薪資跟我們部隊結構的問題當時我們提到兩個其實基本上是兩個概念第一個我們現在在計算我們的邊線比是用全軍平均78%"},{"start":33.01,"end":47.952,"text":"當然這個有參考價值但在管理的意義上在決策的意義上呢其實他參考度比較低所以當時我就建議第一個我們應該分軍種分兵科分單位去算出他的邊線比"},{"start":48.857,"end":65.399,"text":"如果他是屬於機密 我們應該可以機密專報就是說邊線筆要分兵科就常常講的 你拿資源性的行政單位的跟第一類第二類作戰單位去平均計算這個數據呢這個數據沒辦法告訴我任何事情我沒辦法決策"},{"start":66.44,"end":92.394,"text":"第二個一定要像美軍一樣把那個臨界值也就是最小戰力域值這個threshold把它算出來那這兩個數據我就可以知道說這個單位的邊線比現狀是55它的最小臨界點應該要到81或80我就知道缺額多少那缺額來自於什麼原因我才能做決策應該讓它加擠多一點讓主觀管的什麼樣的東西多一點"},{"start":93.394,"end":112.051,"text":"才能做我們招募跟兵力配置的依據所以當時質詢是第一個重點在這裡第二個重點在於我們一定要面對一個現實少子化這不是台灣而已美國 日本 歐盟 德國 台灣都一樣少子化是一個客觀現實所以當我們在採購現代軍備的時候"},{"start":114.113,"end":135.063,"text":"反而要把少子化的因素納為前置條件我這一個裝備一樣的戰力這需要兩個兵那個需要八個兵那我應該要考慮這一個就是說我們在AI自動化現代化的導入的時候人力人員的配置要納入考量這兩個結合起來的話我就要請教第一個問題"},{"start":137.065,"end":147.36,"text":"邊縣筆的呈現採取分科分種分單位而且要列出最小戰力域值我們國安部願不願意這樣做什麼時候可以把它提出來"},{"start":148.874,"end":173.351,"text":"我們關於委員所提到的那個戰略預指現在是有在研議是有在進行研議各單位的這個編寫本來就在我們在討論各項這個相關的調整的時候都會把它拿什麼時候可以呈現因為部長我剛才講的這個如果牽涉到機敏我們可以機密"},{"start":174.079,"end":193.085,"text":"但是不管是參謀本部或者部長這邊軍政軍令系統這個數據很重要啊就是說我這個單位要百分之多少的邊線比他才能出去作戰而他現狀是多少不足的原因在哪裡我才能根據這個才知道說我們薪資啦"},{"start":194.045,"end":217.006,"text":"或者加幾啦我應該往哪邊加把人力補到我們必要的那有的單位一半就能作業了那50%他現在邊線比60%也許沒有那麼優先所以部長你懂我意思嗎這一個數字可能是你們做決策或者我們在這邊討論預算很重要的基礎數據啦你們什麼時候可以拿出來未來我們在委員會能不能採取這樣的看法"},{"start":218.706,"end":223.885,"text":"邊線比各單位最小域值多少距離差距多少或者已經超過了"},{"start":225.292,"end":249.428,"text":"什麼時候可以把它提出來就現在的你現在是說現在部隊的各部隊的邊線比我想這個已經是有既有的資料了不過據我了解沒有最小域值這個東西啊對那現在因為委員在提到的就是所謂的最小域值這個概念那這個概念我們要再請各軍種來做一個評估那現在正在還在進行當中就是說"},{"start":250.248,"end":269.038,"text":"我這邊列的第一個跟第二個我們在委員會有多次建議的一個是科學化的管理我現在兵力到底不足在哪一個單位在海軍到底是艦艇還是岸基艦艇是一二三級哪一種是因為這個小船特別顛簸某一型所以他兵線比比較低"},{"start":269.938,"end":298.141,"text":"那科技上能不能解決或者那個特別辛苦我的家籍該怎麼加把人留住這個是一套的然後加上第二個我剛才講我們現在的採購武器一樣的8吋流一樣的砲用8個人或者用3個人會不會自走存活率這都要納入考量所以人事預算及各項家籍應該根據這個來計算我也希望跟國民黨民眾黨好朋友因為國家安全沒有什麼國防沒有黨派之分"},{"start":298.962,"end":323.767,"text":"我們應該去思考我們現在一直在討論這個齊頭式的加薪不管加3萬加5萬加多少我們都很喜歡哪個人不喜歡加薪但是如果我們討論到國家的國防戰力的話是不是可以思考說我們把這個預算的總額來跟國防部談然後讓國防部把這個總額透過說來海軍陸戰隊邊線比偏低但我們確實需要這個單位把它加幾條高碼"},{"start":324.915,"end":345.092,"text":"或者高專精高專長飛行員飛行員我們希望做商比達到多少那我們現在像續服獎金只有續服那一年有再來就沒有了那是不是叫他留一年第二年就考慮離開就續服獎金要不要一直讓他超過年限就一直有又比方說我們上提到聯營的士官長"},{"start":346.926,"end":364.02,"text":"或者軍官他的戰鬥家旗連有贏沒有不合理嘛會變反淘汰變成我看我就做到這個官機身上去我反而薪水少了好多這個其實才能去把戰力把人力配置在最需要的地方"},{"start":365.321,"end":380.899,"text":"齊頭市的加薪大家高興但齊頭市的加薪其實對於把人力配置在需要的地方對國家未必是好事尤其部隊各項專長加擠地域加擠那是很專業的東西啦所以我請教部長就是說"},{"start":382.736,"end":397.327,"text":"跟委員報告 兩個 第一個就是說有關最小玉子的部分我們正在研究不過現在這個最小玉子的部分我認為還有涉及到屏占的轉換的問題因為平時我們有一個一定維持的一個"},{"start":398.307,"end":420.778,"text":"在戰演性任務底下的一個 最小抑制在平跟戰的數字要不一樣那另外一個戰時的話我們靠鞭死或跨邊動員之後會把整個戰力再透過臨戰訓練再把它提升這是兩個可能不同的 我想我們會在我了解 我上次這個你有提到鞭死動員要考慮那個專長會不會消失每個部隊小到任何一個艦隊或者甚至任何一個艦或者是任何一個主戰"},{"start":421.858,"end":441.814,"text":"部隊的每一個營那都要可能他一個火力營或一個現在要進的裝甲旅或者等等這些可能都要做一些細部的研究所以委員給我們這個概念我想我們會來各軍會來做一些細部研討但是平時跟戰時我覺得還是有不同平時戰時的域值一定不一樣"},{"start":444.376,"end":462.891,"text":"一定不一樣應該是不一樣那第二點就是說有關那個整個戰鬥部隊的這個定義到底是不是要維持在一個連級的層級而已因為本身戰鬥部隊如果你來講一個裝甲旅他就是一個戰鬥部隊那所以在什麼樣的情況之下我們跟行政院來好好討論一下"},{"start":463.932,"end":492.691,"text":"對 我覺得需要我們幫你們說是 戰鬥部隊的定義贏不算 連算這其實是不合不合現狀的完全不合現狀而且那會造成反淘汰所以我剛才提一個建議這個我個人的期待我期待在野黨期待我們國防部期待我們的執政單位大家坐下來談我們不要卡在平均齊頭市加薪這三萬塊當然我了解在憲法在所有的預算法相關上確實那個是有違憲的疑慮"},{"start":494.512,"end":517.357,"text":"我相信藍白陣營的朋友聽不下去但另外一面我們如果真的要幫國軍加薪又考慮到戰力的最佳配置其實根據所有的法律都應該行政部門跟立法部門坐下來談我們把這個總額把它框出來然後讓國防部提出一個最佳的預算的人事資源的配置讓我們的人留在對的地方"},{"start":518.197,"end":531.957,"text":"而不要卡在一個國防部應該有政黨黨派的本位而是應該去思考怎麼做讓我們的戰力更好軍力更好這是我期待所以我剛剛講的那個以聯兵旅來看那我們作為一個聯兵旅作為一個戰鬥單位我們從這畫面來思考"},{"start":534.921,"end":555.342,"text":"我看到你們在加級 尤其過去十年來我們加薪大概六次以上多數都是用這種概念 加級的 讓人配在對的地方我現在請教 強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的特別預算有人說沒有急迫性 沒有必要性 我開放的讓部長回答一下"},{"start":556.283,"end":581.911,"text":"那另外2027年2035年2049年這薛瑞福的說法2027是其實賴總統提出2027那個不是說那一天會發生什麼事而是2027是各國尤其盟友很關注的年份這個意義跟急迫性必要性部長的看法是什麼那我在那邊看到有人竟然主張零軍購就零戰爭零風險先去看看他家門有沒有裝啦他家如果有裝門有裝門鎖的話"},{"start":584.636,"end":611.282,"text":"那是不是就零大門 零窗戶 零門鎖 就零小偷這如果不是幼稚那根本就是侵略者的走狗 我講重一點的話每個國家都需要國防 何況台灣面對這麼大威脅零軍購 那乾脆零國防那這就這樣 百分百投降嘛所以這種主張 大概只有侵略者高興真正要求減少軍購 減少風險應該向侵略者要求"},{"start":612.375,"end":629.825,"text":"威脅別人的放下武器才叫和平保護自己的人放下武器叫做投降基本觀念都分不清楚到底是站在哪一邊那我請教你對這個強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力1.25兆的特別預算條例急迫性跟必要性在哪裡 請部長回答"},{"start":630.712,"end":648.987,"text":"我想簡單的就是說我們要考量這個中國軍事實力跟他這個反介入也就是有盟資源的能力不斷的增長就這個部分的話我們也已經有一再的提到就是說現在不管是灰色攜帶的洗澡並同這個軍事威懾的這樣的一個複合式威脅"},{"start":653.61,"end":666.06,"text":"已經讓我們感受到這個他們由言轉訊由訊轉演 由言轉戰的這個預警時間越來越縮短所以我們當前是要迫切的就這個"},{"start":667.782,"end":687.229,"text":"為了應對當前的破屑我們要具備我那天在總統府記者會裡面有提到我們要加速完備多域聚集者的能力建構一個多層次的防衛體系這是一個嚇阻力量的建構你剛才提到一點我不好意思我追問那一點因為過去從迅轉眼從嚴轉戰"},{"start":694.272,"end":718.662,"text":"不管從2049辦公室那個伊安伊斯敦所寫的書或過去的評估都說中國要籌備武力犯台以前都說最少需要60天的準備部長我問這個比較敏感一點你可以回答就回答以你們現在判斷中國解放軍如果要武力犯台他從準備到發動攻擊那個時間到底縮短到多短"},{"start":720.629,"end":733.236,"text":"我想委員這個問題就可能為難我們都會根據抵可能的行動做好我們這個聯合作案計畫但是我想詳細的可能就不是這個時間你們有嗎我覺得評估應該有"},{"start":735.997,"end":752.565,"text":"過去他們從logistic就是他們的所謂的後勤備載去把人員集中物料集中各方面的集中到兩期準備什麼以前一般抓60天到100天這個是過去各個智庫在算的可是我最近一直看到同樣的話說這個準備期"},{"start":756.26,"end":774.338,"text":"不斷的縮短 你剛也提到這一塊就是說它從迅轉眼 眼轉站它的時間可能會縮短所以我們要加強多欲聚子 嚇阻力量我剛才聽到是這一個那這個短到底短到縮短的時間到底縮短到什麼幅度或者你方便透露是現在有沒有大幅縮短我想我只能夠這麼說就是說"},{"start":779.099,"end":804.898,"text":"你如果看他的針對性的軍演他已經是一個環台的一個在進行一個這樣的一個針對性的軍演所以他以這樣的演習的名義來進行這樣子的一個針對性的一個軍演在我們來看我們就會要我最後問一個我舉一個例子因為情次是在這邊這個謝中將以往為什麼認為他準備期要很長"},{"start":808.849,"end":830.721,"text":"是因為他必須把他的軍需 籌措 物流要花一段時間而且透過衛星看就知道他往哪邊集中了他現在還需不需要這樣做還是過去這一二十年他透過不斷的聯合戰備警訓 軍演把他需要的物資都已經放在應對的位置上那個 謝總將"},{"start":835.479,"end":856.431,"text":"報委員您剛剛的問題其實已經回答了您剛剛前面您剛剛已經把我們要回答的部分已經先做了提示那剩下細部的我認為我們是不是建議另外找時間我贊成我接受就是說你如果認為機敏不回答就是說局勢的轉變在這裡所以它的急迫性跟必要性"},{"start":857.455,"end":868.065,"text":"部長最後幾句話我們把它收尾這一次的特別預算在急迫性跟必要性跟我們剛才看那個只是一個例子喔其實我們還可以舉更多的例子在哪裡"},{"start":869.434,"end":889.79,"text":"我想最主要就是如果預算能夠做這樣一次性的配付我們就能夠資源穩定集中的來加速籌貨所需要的一個戰力嗎那這個是我們提出特別預算的一個編列的一個目的其實你們的集中也是分八年 1.25兆分八年一年是1500億"},{"start":892.011,"end":905.183,"text":"跟我們財化法整個割走的一點四兆每年其實國家安全的投資是有必要的我們面對威脅那麼大嘛謝謝部長 因為時間關係有其他這邊不宜回答的我們私下再進行溝通 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}