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主委我們剛爆發不久的太子集團的跨國洗錢案我想請教主委是不是有查出那個主謀陳志利用境外公司在台設立OBU就是境外金融中心賬戶然後將這個賬款匯入天緒國際尼爾公司來洗錢其實有沒有這個事情"},{"start":26.906,"end":42.806,"text":"其實跟我們報告他整個的那個金流是非常非常複雜那確實主要的資金都是從國外就是有查出這件事吧他利用OBU的帳戶來匯入他的沒有我想這些相關的資料他在台設立的虛擬的公司有沒有這回事"},{"start":44.426,"end":69.931,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我想從媒體揭露的事實裡面確實它在台灣設了非常非常多的公司這事實那也透過一些我們OBU帳戶對 它也有用OBU帳戶但是很多的比如它就進到了這個比如說我們的這些公司它就按照這個境外資金透過各種的國家跟帳戶跟管道進到這邊我想這個大概都是這個在報紙上都有做一些揭露了"},{"start":70.211,"end":85.363,"text":"設立OBU原來的目的是政府為了加強國際金融活動建立區域金融區域性的金融中心以吸引國內外法人投資的一個金融單位因此也給予開立OBU的境外公司享有"},{"start":87.065,"end":110.164,"text":"帳戶享有存款的利息免稅資金進出不受外匯管制利率定價較新台幣客戶彈性高密度高度的隱密性但是我們現在看到卻變成犯罪者的詐騙洗錢工具與管道所以我想問的就是說由太子集團的案子"},{"start":110.845,"end":130.25,"text":"我们可以很清楚的看到我们国内ABU存在着很高的一个制度性风险虽然目前有国际金融业务条例作为控管的一个法律依据但显然已经不足以遏止各种新式的诈骗与洗钱的手法"},{"start":131.07,"end":145.729,"text":"所以請教主委關於OBU的管自衛避免器成為洗錢的一個管道目前法令的規定是否有需要重新審視調整的地方陳主委我跟你講我們這個案發以後呢我們有請文明銀行局這個"},{"start":147.987,"end":155.789,"text":"仔細的找各個相關的銀行來做探討我想請局長簡單報告一下他們討論的結果兩點 兩個重點委員剛剛有關切到OPU整個就是說在帳戶管控上的一個風險事實上我們在2018年接受APG第三輪評鑑的過程當中我們國家風險報告裡面就已經先界定OPU是相對來講是高風險"},{"start":171.132,"end":197.019,"text":"所以当有这样的界定之后我们金管会就采取一连串的相关的措施要求银行在针对OBU开户跟开户之后的相关审查进行了一系列的严控的一个措施那在至于太子集团这个个案的部分其实它开立的这个账户大部分都还是在国内境内的一个部分但针对境内的部分我们先前已经有召开银行"},{"start":197.519,"end":214.889,"text":"市長我這樣問你好了因為時間的關係所以我們現在太子集團這個案子發生之後我們是否有去檢視OBU的金融機制存在有哪些漏洞會被這些犯罪集團利用來洗錢那你如何把這些漏洞把它補起來有沒有做這方面的一個檢討"},{"start":215.529,"end":237.444,"text":"有跟委員報告這個部分我們也會在這個月我們會再邀集銀行跟我們就是法務部的洗錢防支署大家一起過來開會就整個事件的過程當中銀行在相關的不管是申報或者是可疑教育賬戶的一個偵測有沒有可以提升之處我們都有後續的一個製作我希望你們要加強"},{"start":238.024,"end":255.34,"text":"就是我們面對這樣的跨境詐騙洗錢犯罪我們強化跨境金流的監理與OBU的透明度我覺得這是刻不容緩你們要馬上去做另外我們針對今天審查銀行法的修法"},{"start":256.221,"end":273.99,"text":"當然主要我們要區分說小額地下匯兌者與巨額吸金者的一個良形情況當然這個我們看到因為人民受害案件這個比較多的或者頻率比較高的規模比較大的主要是對於這些吸金的一個情況"},{"start":275.391,"end":293.641,"text":"我想考量我們金融犯罪太猖狂金融犯罪正在數位化 跨境化但監理的能力是否有嚴重落後所以我要詢問主委目前詐欺與吸金犯罪橫行金流偵查能力是否足夠"},{"start":295.034,"end":322.005,"text":"我想委員提到一個是否足夠呢我們當然是在持續在精進中除了我們銀行局檢察局人力我們在數位查核的部分我們也持續在建我們的團隊而且過去已經有開始運作也有很好的那個除了如果是在犯罪地在境外的話我們有什麼措施可以來偵辦或者可以明確掌握這些抓團的行為預防有更多受害者來上當"},{"start":323.152,"end":340.94,"text":"當然境外的部分我們也必須要透過國際的合作才有辦法這部分的話我們只能針對我們境內的金流的話主要還是以境內金流為主政府有沒有什麼設備或專業人才能有效掌握這些虛擬資產或是用非法吸金的一個洗錢管道"},{"start":341.676,"end":368.961,"text":"其實就是犯罪的手法不斷在精進我剛才跟委員也報告過其實我們不管我們在檢察局也開始建構一些數位查核的這個團隊跟能力過去我們也在很多地方也在做像比如說對於剛才講那個虛擬資產的部分我們也跟比如警大合作針對一些比如說一些科技的工具我們也都在應用中我想檢體機關確實沒有錯我們受限於人力跟預算的問題但是我們已經盡力在做這件事"},{"start":370.237,"end":398.914,"text":"都尽力在做了最后一个问题来请问今天的一个主题银行法的修正关于银行法第125条的规范实际上它有包含三种不同罪质的行为在一个条文内做一个相同的处罚其实吸金诈骗的规模它是等于它的犯罪所得我想这是毋庸置疑的但是地下会对金额的规模跟它实际犯罪的所得落差极大"},{"start":399.694,"end":405.742,"text":"所以這兩個犯罪行為它的一個形態實際上是不同的所以這種"},{"start":407.833,"end":433.696,"text":"就是吸金行為我們看來他的犯罪的一個受害者眾多危害社會的程度可以說是非常大跟地下會對這些從事地下會對業者他實際的所得就沒有那麼多在一個刑法的考量之下所以我們是不是在這種不同的一個損害的一個程度以及他所得不一樣的情況之下用同樣的良心來處罰"},{"start":435.137,"end":454.322,"text":"是否有違反我們罪行相當的原則也違反比例的原則以及公平正義我先問主委你的意見再請法務部廖參事來回答我現在這個問題謝謝委員的指正當然在過去社會上有不同的見解我想我們在司法見解這樣應該是統一的就是說"},{"start":456.743,"end":469.492,"text":"某種程度假設我站在金管會立場我們認為這個非法吸金當然危害跟那個非法地下匯兌應該是他都是非常非常嚴重的會影響到金融安定跟金融秩序的這樣一個行為"},{"start":470.598,"end":492.498,"text":"那如果說今天呢換成就是從原來的這個整個會對的金額來量刑的基礎換成是一個所謂手續費的話那其實某種程度在不管在社會氛圍還有在現在的犯罪形態的來看的話我們是覺得不太適合這個時候反正有鼓勵人家說這個來做這個東西那我這只要以那個"},{"start":493.439,"end":509.302,"text":"手續費就像我們最近看那個車手他們就說那我只是拿那個幾千塊啊這個但是對社會危害的整體而言對金融秩序的挑戰跟安定我想這個我們從金管會的角度我們還是比較支持司法的見解還有現在我們的條文的內容"},{"start":509.682,"end":526.62,"text":"好 那請法務部我想法務部是對法律的條例的解釋比較精準的一個主管機關所以對這樣一個良行不同的行為的態樣不同的所得的一個的情況之下做同樣的良行處罰這有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":527.401,"end":552.021,"text":"是 委員好那地下會對在某一些個案上它的業者的不法所得可能會有高有低不過在銀行法29條第一項還有125條的規範目的從這個角度上來看它關注的不值業者的不法所得高低的問題它同時還包含了"},{"start":553.226,"end":574.845,"text":"維護整個國家金融特許管理甚至關係到洗錢房制還有外匯管制等等很多的金融面向的法益的保護所以簡單來講我們主要是政策上的考量而不去考量說刑法體系的一個刑法的精神"},{"start":575.686,"end":592.367,"text":"不是沒有考慮性我們政策考量認為說地下匯兌的行為因為地下匯兌的行為影響整個未來我們就是說金融監管的一個秩序就是說地下匯兌的行為它的規範但是我想時間的關係我再最後一問一下就是說"},{"start":593.984,"end":621.433,"text":"銀行法實際上這樣規定就看起來好像違反法律的一個體系針對這種良心完全不一樣犯罪型態所得也不一樣的情況之下你硬要把它認為說刑度是相同有看起來是違反罪行相當原則跟比例原則就形態上來看所以現在反而很多事物上就認為這個人如果他所得就沒有那麼多結果你判他那麼重所以會有侵犯法中心判他更輕的一個刑度所以我從另外一個角度看"},{"start":622.333,"end":632.169,"text":"我們的洗錢防治法有沒有針對這種地下會的行為涉及洗錢的行為有另外的一個良心的就另外的規定的處罰規定 有沒有"},{"start":635.288,"end":656.551,"text":"各位委員報告洗錢防治它本身就是說地下會對它如果有涉及洗錢那當然它另外又觸犯到洗錢防治法上相關的這個刑責那地下會對如果沒有涉及到洗錢的所以我現在就針對牛許廷委員他現在把這個地下會對這種"},{"start":659.333,"end":683.654,"text":"就是如果說涉及的金額超過一億以上就跟吸金金額超過一億以上加重的一個處罰的規定是不是這個就應該把它區隔開來如果洗錢防止法已經有相關的規定那你對這種地下匯兌的實際所得它要超過一億以上才給它這個加重要以實際作為要件你的看法是怎樣跟委員說明"},{"start":685.775,"end":712.273,"text":"觸犯洗錢罪跟單純的地下會對這是兩個不同的犯罪就是說經營地下會對他不當然就是會同時觸犯洗錢罪那如果有當然兩者都構成嘛那如果他沒有構成洗錢但是單純就是從事地下會對業者就是回到刑法那個銀行法上的125條的規定來處罰嘛"},{"start":714.855,"end":735.71,"text":"所以這兩者並沒有衝突所以你贊成這個修法我想請教你的意見作為我們未來討論的一個定論所以你是贊成還不贊成我想聽聽你的意見目前委員的版本就站在我們刑罰的精神那個角度針對會隊的部分它是在125條第一項"},{"start":738.192,"end":765.223,"text":"去限縮他加重就是以億元的計算就以實際所得來計算對 他以實際所得來核算但是呢實際所得從立法說明上來看意思就是指業者的實際犯罪所得對啊那這樣的話一般我們事務上不是也是要這樣算人家的犯罪所得嗎就過去我是以在法律界我們覺得我們要罪行要不能違反他的比例原則嘛還有罪行相當原則我既然賺這麼多錢"},{"start":766.684,"end":787.593,"text":"我沒有算到那麼疑義你硬要講說什麼這個我根本就想剛才主委講的詐欺當然是不容我們完全是不容許的但是我們在良心上面法官一定會有做不同的一個考量所以從良心的一個角度上面你的看法是怎麼樣跟委員報告就是說犯罪所的銀行法125條一項"},{"start":790.297,"end":796.434,"text":"所以這是政策的考量我是問你這是不是因為尊重主管機關的政策考量是不是"},{"start":797.703,"end":826.626,"text":"就是說他在整個金融犯罪的立法設計上各自不同類型他有一定刑度的均衡性那這個部分如果有某一部分是不是要差異化他的刑度要個別的差異化那這個涉及到整個金融管理政策的整體評估我們當然要尊重主管區分的意見我們尊重金管會的意見好 以上謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林召委 謝謝主委"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}