{"error":false,"id":["166109"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166109,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166109","日期":"2025-12-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-36-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-12-03T10:40:33+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-03T10:54:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d65d8891d599d33e30d25403dec583eac67be3e8fe055fbc13da277b577d0128215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:40:33 - 10:54:37","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、司法院副秘書長就「民法繼承編特留分制度之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【12月3日及4日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.50346875,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.794093750000002,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.93221875,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.43596875,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.03409375000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.36596875000001,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.90909375000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":118.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.25284375000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.09534375,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":142.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":156.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.32721875000001,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.93346875,"end":173.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.74221875,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.24409375000002,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.53034375000001,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.65221875,"end":220.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.34659375,"end":227.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.30284375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.97784375,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.36846875,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.46284375,"end":263.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.25971875,"end":266.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.01034375,"end":268.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.64721875000004,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.78221875,"end":269.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.74409375,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.08159375,"end":270.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.86846875000003,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.11346875000004,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.65721875,"end":312.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.65284375000005,"end":334.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.45534375,"end":341.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.95221875000004,"end":376.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.71096875,"end":348.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.83721875000003,"end":350.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.80721875,"end":352.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.53034375000004,"end":369.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.20909375,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.11971875,"end":383.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.47721875,"end":393.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.77534375000005,"end":395.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.81721875000005,"end":398.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.93909375000004,"end":399.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.42409375000005,"end":427.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.30159375000005,"end":433.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.85346875000005,"end":435.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.16534375000003,"end":446.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.52221875000004,"end":447.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.34909375,"end":456.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.82034375,"end":457.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.87096875000003,"end":457.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.33909375,"end":463.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.97534375000004,"end":465.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.18596875000003,"end":475.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.21971875,"end":467.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.44721875000005,"end":469.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.72034375000004,"end":484.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.84534375000004,"end":486.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.54971875,"end":492.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.56159375000004,"end":493.16909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.91159375,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.99971875000006,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.81659375000004,"end":517.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.17784375,"end":523.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.21909375,"end":535.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.94721875,"end":556.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.2297187500001,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.8215937500001,"end":559.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1797187500001,"end":560.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.51284375,"end":564.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2253437500001,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.59221875,"end":585.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.25159375,"end":592.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.50034375,"end":589.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.8628437500001,"end":591.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.88346875,"end":594.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.9084687500001,"end":597.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.92909375,"end":600.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.71346875,"end":604.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.13471875,"end":608.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.5265937500001,"end":612.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.12909375,"end":630.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.3215937500001,"end":625.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.70034375,"end":656.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.9578437499999,"end":662.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.62346875,"end":664.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.48409375,"end":683.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.72159375,"end":687.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.1259687500001,"end":691.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.5134687500001,"end":699.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.60096875,"end":709.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.33784375,"end":716.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.29096875,"end":713.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.0834687500001,"end":721.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.2978437500001,"end":725.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.47034375,"end":725.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.2634687500001,"end":726.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.3940937500001,"end":731.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.83221875,"end":736.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.13096875,"end":738.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.6159687500001,"end":742.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.78409375,"end":753.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.17471875,"end":758.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.66346875,"end":761.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.5447187500001,"end":764.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.0759687500001,"end":769.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.64909375,"end":770.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.5434687500001,"end":771.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.3703437500001,"end":780.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.32659375,"end":785.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.78159375,"end":822.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.9740937500001,"end":824.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.72909375,"end":826.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.3784687500001,"end":832.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.81221875,"end":838.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.6128437500001,"end":840.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.1147187500001,"end":844.2365937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.304,"end":2.405,"text":"主席我們請部長先請部長"},{"start":28.184,"end":46.039,"text":"委員好部長早我想我們今天這個會議今天特別來就這個特留分的這個制度兄弟姊妹的這個特留分的部分我們來進行這個專案報告專案會議那我們沒有直接就法案"},{"start":47.02,"end":63.462,"text":"的法條來排案我們是先就這個主題來作戰吧我覺得這樣的安排是對的因為這個議題確實是需要一些討論如果說直接把法案正拿來審查那可能在也會在審查的過程中會出現一些一些焊格"},{"start":64.983,"end":87.235,"text":"那今天做這樣子的這個有關兄弟姊妹特留份的部分這個1223條的第一項第四款的這個是否要刪除的部分這個我們就我想剛剛其實前面的委員大家有討論我想說因為在討論過程中有一些機會沒有讓部長能夠做清楚的說明"},{"start":88.12,"end":102.513,"text":"我想這個還是最終我們要最溯源要回到這所謂特留分制度設計的目的為什麼要特留分這種東西這個你如果按照現代民法的這個最高基本原則這個財產權神聖不可侵犯"},{"start":105.436,"end":126.943,"text":"那你這個所有權它的絕對原則那我自己的財產我死後之後我要怎麼處分照理講這是我的自由 遺囑自由因為所有權承認不可侵犯理論上是這樣子嘛那所以我遺囑 我財產要給誰就給誰我要給路人也可以但是為什麼會有這種所謂特留份的設計"},{"start":128.363,"end":143.292,"text":"這個就是事實上在立法這個就是他牽涉到了這個所謂的家庭制度家庭倫理還有照顧者的生活保障他家人的一些生活保障的這些考慮之後那至於"},{"start":143.772,"end":172.852,"text":"哪一些人應該要有我們給予他一些基本生活的保障一些保留哪一些人需要有特留份這個制度設計在取得我剛所講的這兩個目的就是遺族的自由跟這個繼承人的基本生活保障這兩個目的之間來取得哪一個點是平衡的是大家覺得說這些人應該要有應該要特別保留給這些人哪一些人不需要配偶大家認為應該要那子女"},{"start":174.063,"end":200.17,"text":"他應該要祖父母要不要兄弟姊妹要不要這個就在看他平衡點取在哪裡這個我覺得是今天這個會議討論的最最根本的這個這個目的那就有點剛剛林倩琦委員在質詢的時候提到這個離婚的這個門檻的問題一樣他還是在兩個價值之間去衡量去衡評在這個婚姻自由但是這婚姻不只是兩個人的事這個社會認知到你們是夫是"},{"start":201.11,"end":227.628,"text":"是配偶關係之後他的所有的經濟行為等等所以你要保留婚姻的安定性所以這兩個婚姻對於社會的安定性跟婚姻自由這兩個橫屏之下的離婚門檻的設計跟這個特留份今天我們討論一樣也是就是這個橫屏的橫屏點要放在哪裡其實我們現在民法這個特留份的制度這個部長你知道是民國幾年立的法這個是民國"},{"start":231.863,"end":259.92,"text":"19年1920年1930年這是民國19年立法之後特留份部分就沒有修改過就是這樣對不對當初這個設計其實在當初那時候的這個是在中國的立法中國那時候立法中國的整個社會環境他的家族條件結構跟現在社會可能已經完全不一樣了但是在當初立法的時候其實是個進步的立法當初是以"},{"start":261.261,"end":282.455,"text":"我們是參考哪一國的立法律應該是參考歐陸法系列我們參考瑞士瑞士的這個特留份制度它是綜合德國跟法國的制度當初算是進步的立法所以我們當初是最進步的立法結果到現在"},{"start":286.178,"end":311.036,"text":"這個1930年到現在2025年已經快要100年了這個其實會引起社會這樣討論也就是因為社會確實制度變遷了很多當初我們是一個進步的立法但是現在我們環顧我們應該看外國的立法力到底這個兄弟姊妹的特留份在外國其他的制度到底還沒有在保留這個部分我覺得這個是我們今天要來探討的"},{"start":313.943,"end":334.295,"text":"剛剛翁委員提到說這個好像我們這個法務部在這個現在社會都已經這樣子我們立委也提案也好幾個立委提案要直接刪除這個兄弟姐妹的特留份那好像我們的法務部牛步話啦我們這個都腳步緩慢啦但是事實上我個人認為啦我看事實上我們法務部並沒有這樣子牛步話第一個"},{"start":335.506,"end":361.316,"text":"我們剛剛在一整個早上一直在講我們在105年的時候我們事實上就已經有提出整個民法繼承對不對 我們那時候有這個草案那個有 那個有送大院那時候已經送到立法院來審議了就是因為 借期不連續為什麼會借期不連續那時候的立法委員怠惰那時候立法委員怠惰說我們這個民法繼承篇的相關的修改送進立法院結果當時的立法委員怠惰不審讓他到借期不連續"},{"start":363.937,"end":383.247,"text":"當然不是 我們就回頭去看當初我們有沒有處理這個特留份的問題兄弟有去處理我們那時候去處理是我們把它降低特留份的比例我們那時候沒有全部刪除105年的草案是降低比例嘛但是降低 光是降低比例其實那時候在立法院的討論裡面就引起很大的爭議引起不同的意見"},{"start":384.537,"end":398.243,"text":"那時候有什麼樣不同意見呢包括這些婦女團體還有一些部分的立委也認為說特留份現在這種特留份的這個部分尤其在台灣傳統社會這種男尊女卑常常會讓這個男性"},{"start":400.484,"end":427.547,"text":"男性的這個讓兒子繼承然後讓女兒的部分就不繼承避免就是如果直接刪除兄弟姐妹的特留份或者是降低在當時的討論當時的討論婦女團體之所以很多婦女團體站出來質疑就是他們認為說你如果直接降低了這個特留份的話那時候只是降低不是刪除降低他們認為在這個子女性別的財產分配上面會造成不公平的"},{"start":429.188,"end":455.893,"text":"狀況等等諸如此類不只這個有各種不各種不一樣的意見所以那時候就放在那裡沒有辦法決定所以就最後脫過了那個會期就屆期不連續對不對是不是這樣是是是嗎所以有關這個兄弟姐妹這特留份的這的部分討論其實我們法務部有沒有有沒有牛部話呢就剛剛今天早上大家都問說啊你們到底態度怎麼樣你們的回答就是說你們現在有一個"},{"start":456.914,"end":483.474,"text":"委外的研究案委外的研究案這個委外研究案不是不只是針對這個兄弟姊妹的特留份吧它是範圍是繼承篇整個繼承篇整個大修整個繼承篇大修啦我所了解包括這個喪屍繼承權的室友啦這個戴威繼承佐給財產的遺產分割生前特種證語等等什麼所有這些東西都納入在這個委外研究案那這個這個"},{"start":487.602,"end":506.585,"text":"好像說你們是牛步化被動但是我來看我看到這個時程其實你們並沒有說比較慢因為其實在這個公共現在這個廢除這個兄弟姐妹的特留份的保障的部分在公共政策網路平台那時候被提出提案的時候是"},{"start":508.364,"end":535.221,"text":"2025年4月29 我說今年的4月29今年4月29網路開始提案那提案 那個提案沒有通過在網路政策平台沒有通過第二次在這個8月31 8月底的時候在第二次的提案才通過了嘛但是我們的這105年 不是105我們這個委員研究案是什麼時候送的4月份 今年4月份事實上在網路提案之前連在政策平台提案之前我們就已經"},{"start":536.521,"end":563.68,"text":"就要檢討整個制度的那這個整個制度我個人是不太贊成說直接我們就很簡單的就把這個1.2.3條第一項第四款直接把它刪除把全部直接拿掉就好我個人是不太贊成啦因為它有一些配套它其實真的有一些配套例如說我們把它拿掉之後那現在現在正在訴訟的這些案件它有沒有書籍記網"},{"start":565.27,"end":585.18,"text":"這真的不可能 這不會唆棄計劃我現在我直接刪除我直接刪除了這個說兄弟姊妹特留份 沒有了那現在可能細數的我現在還在細數的案件我可以直接引用現在新法說兄弟姊妹特留份已經沒有了"},{"start":586.294,"end":590.895,"text":"因為計程室死亡開始就發生計程我說不只這個啦不只這個你還包括說包括說這個撫養你這個剛才這個是好像是翁委員提到說有關於撫養義務的這個界定這個也是配套的部分所以我認為說光直接就立法委我們這些委員同仁提案直接把這個123條第一項"},{"start":614.178,"end":629.953,"text":"第四款刪除我個人認為說這樣立法是不太妥當的啦我認為說應該就按照法務部現在目前的步調我們反正今天現在已經12月了所以就是快要我們這個研究報告快要出來了嘛那研究報告出來之後"},{"start":630.914,"end":656.256,"text":"也不是說研究報告說什麼我們就怎麼做嘛你社會也會有不同的意見啊有關特留份的部分有一些是主張全部整個特留份制度都刪除的嘛這個聲音也有但是還是有像在105年立法的時候也有反對這個降低兄弟姊妹為了性別保障的考量反對這個降低兄弟姊妹特留份的意見也有啊那我們怎麼處理兄弟姊妹特留份"},{"start":657.098,"end":662.419,"text":"有的人認為應該直接刪除也有人認為降低比例就好有人認為說整個特留份制度都拿掉"},{"start":664.566,"end":691.259,"text":"這個有各種不一樣的意見所以我們研究報告出來之後理論上我們是應該要在召開會議聽取廣納社會不同的意見大家來凝聚共識以免到時候法案送進來在我們司法法治委員會又大家不同的意見結果又卡在那裡我們任期也沒有剩幾年這屆期不連續到時候十年後的司法委員會召委那時候更年輕的翁曉琳來說你們那時候為什麼沒有通過"},{"start":692.557,"end":716.069,"text":"對不對 所以我認為說應該這樣子啦應該按照這個方向那其實按照各國的立法例其實我們回頭看看各國的立法例其實跟我們社會制度最接近的日本 韓國都把兄弟姊妹的特留份拿掉了有些韓國最近 韓國在去年而已去年拿掉去年 而且他們宣告違憲而且立即失效"},{"start":717.11,"end":742.009,"text":"他們沒有再修法了 違憲就立即兄弟姊妹特留份就是立即失效所以他們現在兄弟姊妹沒有特留份那這個我個人在最後一點時間我個人參考我們在參考日本日本因為他們現在日本的高齡化社會比我們更嚴重比台灣更嚴重他們整個家庭結構都改變了跟我們當初那種家族裡面他們甚至現在兄弟姊妹"},{"start":743.39,"end":761.702,"text":"這個都已經不是重點了而是配偶死亡之後遺留下來的這個還存活的這個配偶他的生活保障變成他們最關注的部分所以他們會把兄弟裡面特留份等等的拿掉所以他們財產部分他們還包括到他"},{"start":762.583,"end":779.997,"text":"很多他到底連居住的地方的繼承等等這種整個社會結構家庭觀念的改變所以這個高齡配偶的這個生存的權利那自書遺囑的這個執行遺囑執行人的權限這些促進自書"},{"start":781.417,"end":799.131,"text":"促進這個自書遺囑的這些他們都有很多的配套那我是希望說我們在即將要出爐的這個研究報告出來之後我們整理我們幾個我們應該繼承偏我們應該因應現在也真的要修了啦我剛才民國19年到現在已經快100年的條文也應該要修了啦那我們來做一些全面的檢視"},{"start":808.078,"end":822.315,"text":"那把配合現代這個不同的家庭觀念不同的這個家裡社會結構我們來做一個整體的這樣子的檢討我認為這樣是比較妥當的啦光就這個兄弟姊妹的特留份這樣來單獨處理我個人認為是會變成只是"},{"start":827.421,"end":838.251,"text":"沒有對症下 他就是就是我認為會有一些 你們有一些配套 會有一些後遺症那我這個在這裡以這樣子來期許我們法務部謝謝 謝委員好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}