{"error":false,"id":["166156"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166156,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166156","日期":"2025-12-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-15-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-12-03T11:12:01+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-03T11:21:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d64b4d0ae2279dd247c7cefddca96be5007a6b5dab788943101a06a885b33e9f7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:12:01 - 11:21:12","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。八、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員李坤城等23人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十一條、第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。【第一案、第十七案至第十九案如經復議則不予審查；第二十案至第二十一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【12月3日及4日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.77346875,"end":2.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.41721875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.14596875,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.767218750000005,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.735968750000005,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.92096875,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.01346875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.337843750000005,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.93784375,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.06346875,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.54471875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.49971875,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.59596875,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.45159375,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.10096875000002,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.93159375000002,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.96409375000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.74846875,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.12346875,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.79409375,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.44346875000002,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.74596875,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.37846875000002,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.45846875,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.04034375,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.02221875,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.87409375000001,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.82284375,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.56909375,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.57284375,"end":206.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.31034375000002,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.40284375000002,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.43659375000001,"end":212.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.27534375000002,"end":245.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.46096875,"end":258.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.52846875,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.89346875,"end":263.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.05721875,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.33409375,"end":278.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.36784375,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.38471875,"end":274.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.68846875,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":279.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.24471875,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.55659375,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.99034375,"end":292.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.77846875,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.50846875,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.13284375,"end":322.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.59659375,"end":324.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.68909375000004,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.02221875000004,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.47784375000003,"end":326.54534375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經管會有請請經管會好 辛苦啦這個今天藉法條的審查的詢答跟你探討一個政策相關的問題當然也是跟這個詐欺危害犯罪防治條例相關的"},{"start":22.488,"end":50.861,"text":"這個我們這一次的院版裡面有第11條就是有談這個張款發還的方向張款發還的方向那針對這個帳戶裡面沒有經過提領的款項或資產到時候通知之後要發還給被害人也就是給予被害人最大程度的補償這事實上大家都非常非常關心因為其實詐騙的被害人其實最關心的事情就是錢到底能不能拿回來不好意思 主席"},{"start":51.803,"end":51.906,"text":"我那時間"},{"start":52.918,"end":63.566,"text":"沒有開始 我可以一直講嗎好 不要緊 繼續講 防詐的重要問題 來謝謝主席好 那我們就回到主題目前這個發完的程序就是說我這個被詐騙的錢要怎麼還給詐騙的受害人現在金管會裡面有訂立叫做金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防制詐欺犯罪危害應遵循事項辦法這名字有夠長"},{"start":83.968,"end":88.062,"text":"這53條裡面規定這是你的辦法這是一個行政命令的層級所以我說今天來做政策的對話"},{"start":89.107,"end":93.05,"text":"他說存款業務機構依前條規定辦理就剛剛講這個辦理的時候應透過這個匯出存款業務機構或電子支付通知被害人由被害人檢據相關文件然後依啊匯轉入時間逐筆認定未被提領部分由最後一筆金額往前推算這絕對大家都聽不懂在講什麼簡單來說呢這一個帳戶假設"},{"start":114.588,"end":131.333,"text":"假設有分三筆60萬一個30萬20萬的10萬好如果今天被抓了就按照10萬20萬30萬倒退的回去嘛就是越晚被詐騙的優先來領現在制度上的設計為了方便他長成這個樣子如果說這60萬沒有被領走那他就是10萬的20萬的30萬還給被害人對不對這聽起來沒問題啊"},{"start":136.434,"end":157.211,"text":"好啦 問題來啦今天如果這六十萬被詐騙完之後這個詐騙犯他把五十萬領走了剩下十萬的時候 來 問題出現了請問按照你現在的規定這個十萬該歸屬於誰啊甲乙丙甲被騙三十萬乙被騙二十萬丙被騙十萬按照這個順序 對不對其中的五十萬被甲乙者"},{"start":157.992,"end":174.641,"text":"拿去用掉了 剩下十萬在這個戶頭裡按照你現行的辦法 只有餅可以拿回這十萬甲哥你就哭啦我是怎樣 我比較早被騙 所以我比較倒楣他晚被騙 他還可以拿回來一點點這個 這樣子的一個制度設計是不是有一點狀況是不是請金管會說明一下"},{"start":176.806,"end":200.359,"text":"因為這個涉及到等於說他這個是犯罪所得的一個重新緩緩變成說他相關的法律關係的話變成說要看那個司法機關法院的判決來處理變成說那個金融機構比較沒有權責再去做相關的判斷可是現在發完程序還是要依循金管會的作業辦法來處理"},{"start":201.658,"end":217.667,"text":"是我們就是原則上是這樣子按照順序去原則上是這樣那不會延伸更多糾紛嗎因為涉及到如果說他不是整比的話就涉及到每一個受害人的權利的問題對啊那就變成說可能就要留待那個法院來做一個裁判這樣子"},{"start":218.342,"end":244.987,"text":"你現在的狀況是因為你有個規定寫在那邊那大家就要依法行政依你的辦法去做這個事情然後他就會衍生爭議縱然你講也許法院會介入判決但是這樣讓每一個事情變成個案上面有高度的不確定性本期認為有異議當然你講因為按照這個流動的順序啊或怎麼樣按照這個主筆來做回去那是最簡單的這是從金管委本會出發嘛也就是說我這是一個行政成本最低的做法但我問你這個行政成本最低的做法並不是一個最公平的做法"},{"start":245.583,"end":271.857,"text":"是不是要考慮一下修整比如等比例發還之類因為大家同樣一包被騙都很倒霉嘛對不對那最後不管這個加害人幹走了多少錢但是剩下來的錢你要等比例發還是不是比較公平也比較有統一的程序可以做依循我們現在就藉這個機會跟你做一下這樣的探討委員建議我們會來研議考慮但是就是說這個條文設計的原因就是希望加速返還這個相關的款項來彌補這個被害人的損失"},{"start":274.898,"end":292.191,"text":"讓他程序比較便捷比較快速但是如果說在細節的一些程序上的設計是不是可以向委員建議這樣比較公平性我們再來研議你要研議多久因為現在在討論法條的修正當然這個東西不見得要透過法條的修正來做處理"},{"start":292.831,"end":317.659,"text":"但是這個一定是顯然未來大家今天這次修正相關的條文就是標舉就是說這犯罪所得可以盡速而且有效的返還給被害人嘛你不要說法條修了然後大家有所期待然後最後出來發現有這樣的一個制度上的一個問題然後招致更多的糾紛恐怕有些問題所以我認為是要同步處理跟著我們法條的修正的這樣的一個節奏法條在討論的同時你的作業辦法就要有所修正那請問金管會能不能提出具體的時間表呢"},{"start":320.474,"end":340.943,"text":"時間表這部分我們是不是因為我們現在這個條文還是有一個有一個彈性的也就是說金融機構他會去判斷說這個金額的狀況是不是能夠叫發還那如果說不適合發還的話他還是就是不會先執行這個狀況那當然如果說這個怎麼去優化涉及到實務面我們在執行的話我們會再找銀行或是"},{"start":341.703,"end":367.234,"text":"執法機關來共同討論看看比較好的方式那是不是我們會後再跟委員來報告一下沒關係 配合這個法案的修正進度因為今天答詢完後面可能會再安排逐條討論的時間我不希望到逐條討論的時候這是一個懸而未解的問題好不好 你就配合因為整個詐欺違法條例在修正也一定涉及這個官方機關跟各級民意代表針對不同法條的溝通啦今天就把它當成也許有一個修正動議怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":368.679,"end":386.729,"text":"會後要跟本辦公室保持密切聯繫我們討論一下這辦法怎麼樣來修正可以兼顧行政的效率跟發環的公平性可以嗎是可以好再來我要問一下C43條的大家的修正的意見因為現在這部分我們內政部好了可以沒關係現在"},{"start":389.972,"end":415.884,"text":"上次我們在內政委員會討論這個犯刑法339條之四之罪獲取財務或財產上的利益達到五百萬元以上者就要三年以上十年以下有期徒刑嘛基本上就是重罰嘛然後達一億元者五年以上十二年以下嘛那現在很多委員都有提案了有些把門檻降低變成你的這個金手的金流受害的金額達到一百萬我就要進去關有些是說我分層處理就是說"},{"start":416.826,"end":437.069,"text":"就是說五百萬的一千萬的一億的分成三層那我請問現在行政機關對於這樣子的一個修法意見也就是說我們在重罰各式各樣的這個這種大額大家都投資詐騙的行為啦吸金詐騙投資詐騙這樣一個行為現在行政院這邊的立場是什麼謝謝委員我們現在目前就是層級化就是一百一千一億"},{"start":438.09,"end":449.375,"text":"現在就成績化那100萬的話的部分是3年到10年那如果是1000萬的話是5年到12年1億的話就是7年以上所以大概一個成績化大概是目前是這樣這加重了"},{"start":452.157,"end":467.351,"text":"這個基本上本席非常關心這個違法吸金的一個狀況就今天財政委員會同步在審查銀行法那銀行法當然是針對吸金的部分吸金的部分不一定被拿走只要金流有超過他就達成一定的要件那麼請問現在從炸房條例的地方我能不能有效嚇阻違法吸金的行為"},{"start":468.325,"end":488.111,"text":"我想有效的嚇阻是多面向的不是只有單一刑事法刑法的一個提升這是其中的一環所以我們現在修正的這個法條它也是用金流的數字去算嗎還是要用不法所得的角度去算我們這個是以被害人交付的金額交付的金額嘛對對對這個就會堵掉很多疑義"},{"start":489.171,"end":509.659,"text":"我們現在擔心的詐騙形態現在很多種有很多那種小額的啦一點點的微小的那種狀況當然是非常非常多的但是真正對於社會治安還有大家公信重大受創的一定都是那種投資型的大額詐騙就是先以小利右拐上車上車之後就開始賣房子賣身家對不對 全身一乾二淨"},{"start":510.419,"end":537.425,"text":"那種好幾百萬好幾億的所以我會建議一下這我們相關的機關在設計的時候當然現在分三成因為基本上你的最高一億元以上七年以上就是跟現在的違法基金是對齊的狀態但本期的主張啊這應該再加重因為你在超過好幾億的那是不知多少人的身家性命房子地產全部都在裡面那你如果還是只有這個七年以上恐怕是我是希望可以再往上增加我希望行政院再提出一點再細膩的版本多分幾成也無所謂這是本期的政策建議"},{"start":538.298,"end":547.067,"text":"針對投資詐騙我們一定要到牢底坐穿這是本席的主張希望我們在未來討論的時候可以有更多方向更細緻的討論可以嗎是 遵守大院的決定好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝牛市廷委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}