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原理提高房屋租金扣除及首購組的房貸利息支出避兆房屋租金列為特別扣除的供應費"},{"start":1996.323,"end":2015.813,"text":"我想現在大家都知道房價雖然我們這個央行有八次的信用管制的措施以及財政部在清安組首購之後有一連串的接近打草房的措施可是房價一樣高居不跌"},{"start":2018.394,"end":2038.64,"text":"那在這種情況之下其實很多做生意的啦或者是租屋的啦其實都面臨到一個租金不斷的漲特別我們看到這個房價在漲的時候租金漲那很多的小商店他們這個賺的錢不多可是"},{"start":2039.66,"end":2054.089,"text":"去面臨的租金常常要漲以及有些的中小企業那他們也是面臨到同樣的問題所以因此呢有黨團提案把這個租金列入"},{"start":2055.009,"end":2073.277,"text":"要特別扣除本來就有那他把額度提高了以及所構築這方面的我們就這兩個題目一起來談所以今天的題目是談到租金談到是一般住宅的租金第二個是有關於企業在租金這一部分"},{"start":2074.457,"end":2087.165,"text":"我們可以看得到有不少企業因為房租不斷的上漲被迫歇業或者被迫離開他們的地方這種情況都非常的多所以我們今天就是開這樣的公聽會那麼現在開始的在請各位發言之前我們"},{"start":2093.393,"end":2116.668,"text":"就以下宣布每位專家學者十分鐘結束前一分鐘會按您的提醒原則上我們今天會有立委會出席那專家學者的簽到出去發言如果委員要發言請到主席台登記那委員是每位五分鐘全部發言完畢以後行政機關就"},{"start":2118.389,"end":2134.836,"text":"業管的全責現在就是財政部政務次長這裡做一個整體的回應現在首先我們請第一位的專家吳俊智吳俊智律師發表意見好不好請10分鐘10分鐘聽到了鈴聲就是1分鐘"},{"start":2141.03,"end":2158.608,"text":"那在座的就是各位就是先進還有各位專家學家好那很榮幸來參加就是今天的題目那我發現說今天要處理的題目首先就是它其實有蠻多面向那關於租金這個扣除是否要提高的問題"},{"start":2159.609,"end":2175.158,"text":"那我覺得會有一個問題就是說我們現在的問題其實反而不是說租金到底要提高到多少而是租金列舉扣除額有沒有人用它以前是列舉扣除額嘛那現在移到特別扣除額之後到底有沒有人在用"},{"start":2177.281,"end":2199.815,"text":"對 那我們都知道說現實上很多大部分的情況是受限於房東的限制所以租金列舉扣數額根本就沒有人用那你提高的金額提高從原本的18萬提高到25萬那結果是不是還會變成是一樣的情況那有沒有可能說在租賃市場上呢有讓這個房東的租金更透明"},{"start":2200.515,"end":2215.572,"text":"那另外一種可能是說因為我剛剛有看到其他專家學員的建議有可能是說給房東一些像是租稅大赦或是說一些租稅優惠的方式但是這個部分我是比較懷疑說就是這個"},{"start":2216.633,"end":2236.816,"text":"就是即使說就是會有一些優惠但是我也是懷疑說房東會不會說因為有這些優惠那馬上就是說願意誠實去申報因為不只說是申報租賃所得的問題那就是當他列報租賃所得之後那他的這個建物他可能就是必須沒有辦法去適用自用住宅稅率"},{"start":2238.263,"end":2266.002,"text":"所以另外一方面我覺得是說可能可能就是國稅局這方面可以加強查核的力道如果說在房東大部分的租賃所的都沒有辦法實際去隱藏的情況之下那對他們來講就是申報申報就已經沒有差了那這種情況呢房客的部分他能夠去申報租賃所的可能性那應該就可以更多的提升"},{"start":2267.793,"end":2290.54,"text":"那如果是在這樣子的情況之下我可能就會贊成說好那我們租金所得的特別扣除額可以提高但至於提高到多少我認為說他可能並不是一個就是目前一定是定額的概念那這個可能還需要財政部來評估說按照我們現在的物價指數多少的金額就是會是比較合適的"},{"start":2292.392,"end":2320.902,"text":"那另外就是說房貸利息扣除額的部分因為房貸跟租金所得的扣除額它的功能其實都是在於居住權保障那它基本上來說也是擇一行四的概念所以當我們已經把租金所得的扣除額移到特別扣除額的時候那房貸的扣除額繼續放在利息扣除額它在立法體力上就會變得有一點違和"},{"start":2322.702,"end":2342.408,"text":"那當然如果把它移到特別扣除額也不是不行但是這個時候就會出現一個問題就是說原本能夠適用房貸扣除額的人他們會不會可以扣得太過多因為就是代表說他們原本就是標準扣除額可以使用那特別扣除額的部分呢他還可以繼續使用就是這30萬"},{"start":2344.489,"end":2368.4,"text":"那這兩個會不會導致說它會有重複的扣除的部分所以說會不會有一個可能就是說在特別扣除額的部分呢我們限於首購族的部分那如果不是首購族的房貸扣除額那依然要回歸到業局扣除額那對他們再做更加的限制我覺得這也是一個可能啦"},{"start":2370.663,"end":2393.697,"text":"那至於說房租調漲的問題剛剛看到就是其實有蠻多學者都比較說各國的立法例那各國立法例上其實很多都對房租調漲有一定的限制例如說就是調漲到3%或者是說每年就是調漲10%之類的但是這個是不是說就是適用於所有房屋"},{"start":2395.117,"end":2422.864,"text":"那我覺得其實也是就是有商議的空間因為說在有一些地方就是如果假設說是身多周少的情況那會不會說房東覺得說好你限制我調漲那我寧願不出租了或是說我會租給說就是可以接受我調漲的人那是不是有可能說我們把它區分成說就是都市的房屋以及非都市的房屋"},{"start":2423.755,"end":2449.371,"text":"那以荷蘭的歷史來講的話他們會把房屋就是分成不同的等級然後不同的分數那這不同的等級他們就可以設定不同的調漲幅度那例如說如果我們是非都市地區土地那非都市地區土地你還限制它的調漲幅度的話他會不會覺得說那我租給你好像意義不大我乾脆租給工廠算了"},{"start":2451.007,"end":2478.105,"text":"所以基本上來說我覺得這個部分可能我們基本上來說我們是不反對說有租金調漲的限制但是這個調漲的限制可能並不太適合說就是用一刀切的方式那這個調漲的限制呢可能我們一方面可以分成都市土地跟非都市土地那一方面呢就是即使是都市土地裡面那我們也可以按照它的需求那設定不同的等級然後來設定它調漲的上限"},{"start":2479.042,"end":2506.388,"text":"那另外一點就是說每年調漲的上限呢它也不一定要是一樣因為就是有時候租金有時候這個房租調漲的原因呢它可能是來自於說今年例如說物價指數的調整今年如果就是物價指數調整非常高但是呢你不讓房東調漲好像也並不是很有道理所以這個是不是有可能說配合物價指數來做一定的搭配"},{"start":2507.554,"end":2524.391,"text":"然後另外有可能是說每個地方政府或是每個縣市他們在調漲的額度上面是不是有可能就是有採樣權這個我也是覺得說在制度設計上面是有可能可以去思考的地方"},{"start":2529.195,"end":2548.116,"text":"那另外就是其實我們目前的法規裡面它本身是有就是租金上限的限制在土地法第97條第一項裡面它其實是有租金不可以超過年息10%的限制那大家其實應該都知道這一條根本沒有人在用"},{"start":2549.93,"end":2574.946,"text":"那為什麼沒有人在用呢?實際上呢當房東的租金就是真的超過這個額度之後那你能夠做的事就是地方政府把它降回就是百分之十但是對房客來講他不會因為說這個差距而特別去跟地方政府就是例如說去申訴然後要求去調降租金因為他能夠獲得的就是這一年的租金調降而已"},{"start":2580.989,"end":2595.936,"text":"所以如果說我們真的要設定這樣的限制的話那是不是說就是他有一定的實意或者是說如果說真的要這樣做的話那是不是說勢必可能會搭配一些處罰性的規定"},{"start":2599.338,"end":2626.563,"text":"但是你要搭配這些處罰性的規定的話難度可能就會提高因為租金跟我們的房屋買賣它是不一樣的情況就是房屋買賣它是需要就是它是需要就是土地登記然後實價登錄的但是租金畢竟它只是一個契約那有沒有可能說因為這樣的限制而導致說就是我們的房東變成說更加的就是防禦性租賃的情況"},{"start":2627.883,"end":2655.271,"text":"他們可能說會不會說我寧願就是租給一些更短期的租客或者說我的租約全部都是變成一年一千雖然說我們很多租約確實是一年一千沒有錯所以如果說就是要有這樣的限制的話我是覺得說它的條件可能就是要更嚴格然後就是說來適應不同的物價指數的情況我們可能就是必須要有搭配不同的配套"},{"start":2657.011,"end":2658.212,"text":"那就是謝謝大家好 謝謝吳俊志律師的高見我們現在會請漢邦聯絡會計事事務所的顧問葉祐義 葉顧問請好 主席 各位委員然後各位先進 各位學者專家 大家好"},{"start":2684.455,"end":2699.595,"text":"我是漢邦聯合會計師事務所EOE顧問我們今天要提供的這個討論的內容我們是就討論提綱的第二題是否有效規範房屋租金訂立合理條幅以兼顧租賃雙方權益的這個題目"},{"start":2701.878,"end":2726.408,"text":"我們就住宅案例來提供一些研究資料分享給大家做一些參考那在書面資料的部分應該是在最後面大概倒數五張的部分有個四住宅案例那這邊會有一些簡單的講稿那後面有附件那因為時間的關係附件就留給在座的學者專家跟委員做一些立法的這個參考那我們今天要講的是這個"},{"start":2727.648,"end":2753.175,"text":"租人住宅的租金到底可不可以來做一些合法管制的部分尤其是漲幅或者是說現在新聞大家在炒的什麼叫做合理的租金的這個部分首先是像4月18號大家都有看到一個新聞高雄的日式的通口飯糰這個租屋糾紛的新聞這個房東在後來他有出來講一句話很重要"},{"start":2753.695,"end":2780.169,"text":"他說我後來才知道租金低於同區域店面的平均租金所以在我們法律人的這個角度聽起來他是希望能調漲租金所以會有一些不愉快的情緒造成這次的新聞糾紛的事件那這個租金的問題早在疫情前就早就發酵過了那疫情前台北市就有太多的這些傳統的民店商店他是沒有辦法負擔這個租金"},{"start":2782.13,"end":2802.53,"text":"租約報期他就不續約了以我的年紀來看的話我記得就是像六福皇宮像永福樓像這個城中的金石堂的書局這個在重慶南路那疫情之後這個台北市因為像我喜歡逛這個書店台北市重慶南路本來號稱書店一條街現在大型書店只剩下哪一間"},{"start":2803.371,"end":2824.659,"text":"三民書局因為他窮的只剩下不動產因為這個董事長很厲害早期他懂得買不動產所以沒有不動產的這些書局全部都消失了那當然我們會說這個在自由經濟的這個商業環境的這個影響之下那產業更替本來就是一個正常的現象可是呢我們"},{"start":2825.699,"end":2840.605,"text":"從結果論來看,從高昂的租金來看會造成商圈的沒落跟移動最有名的就是東區,台北市的東區台北市的東區有一些比較小型的賣衣服、賣化妝品的商店因為租金太貴了"},{"start":2841.385,"end":2864.07,"text":"全部往旁邊擠,往中山區去擠所以這個高昂的租金其實對於現在人民的生活也產生了一些問題那在商辦用的不動產租賃,這個我覺得問題更複雜這個我們在後面的游律師會幫我們做一些說明那這個政府更難以用這個法律去介入這個自由經濟市場"},{"start":2866.17,"end":2882.563,"text":"對於我們我今天負責的題目這個關於這個租賃住宅包括居住爭議居住人權的這個部分其實我們早就有一個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例其實只要稍微動一兩個條文其實就可以保障到"},{"start":2884.043,"end":2907.799,"text":"這個租賃、住宅租金的漲幅也好合理的租金的定義也好這個都可以做一些設計那接下來我們這邊所研究的包括香港、韓國、美國、加州、德國等相關的這些有做一些規範的這些國家跟地區的法制來簡單跟大家做說明首先第一個是香港的部分"},{"start":2909.06,"end":2924.37,"text":"那香港的部分他主要規定在業主與租客綜合條例的這個部分那他在租賃的這個期間他是規定租金不能上調那在規範的這個規管週期中次期的這個租賃的租金加幅"},{"start":2924.99,"end":2941.376,"text":"不得高於他的官方單位這個是猜想物業估價署的這個他們會就私人住宅的這個部分會公佈一些指數啊百分比啊做一些控管那我們這邊研究的資料他的上限漲幅上限是10%那那個"},{"start":2944.497,"end":2966.035,"text":"他可以依照當時的狀況去做一些調整那第二個是韓國的部分那我們只針對韓國的住宅租金管制來說明一下他是有一個叫做住宅租賃的保護法他規定租金的調漲必須間隔一年那這個幅度不可以超過上一期的就是前一年租金的5%"},{"start":2967.336,"end":2982.97,"text":"好 那在我講稿的第一頁最下面這第三個是美國加州的部分美國加州因為它是一個判立法的這個地方就沒有一個比較像大陸法系的這個法律的部分好 我們找到資料是它除了一些特定房屋以外"},{"start":2983.59,"end":3009.853,"text":"住宅租金的這個漲幅一樣它是每一年也就是每12個月不可以超過生活成本百分比的變化加上5%然後以10%為上限那它這邊是一年可以調整兩次所以看起來各國的一些規範跟期限都有不同的一些規定在我的講稿第二頁最上方我最後就講一個德國的部分"},{"start":3010.673,"end":3028.014,"text":"德國的部分在他的BGP也就是民法的這些規定裡面他其實對於房屋市場緊張的地區的住宅租賃他有做一些基礎的規定他很特別在這個民法裡面有做一些規定他在2014年之後如果你是大"},{"start":3029.295,"end":3051.463,"text":"2014年之後蓋成的或者是大量整修的這些住宅的這個部分他的租賃的租金他是規定他當地有個參考租金的你不可以超過他的10%那在租金調漲的部分他是規定說三年不得超過20%那他當地的州政府更有權將部分地區他如果覺得"},{"start":3053.585,"end":3061.254,"text":"這個我們剛剛講的房屋市場緊張地區就是太多人密集的這個部分他可以把上限調降到這個15%所以從簡單四個地區國家的這個法令來看"},{"start":3067.22,"end":3093.403,"text":"各國政府他還是會有依法適度去管制這個住宅租金調漲的這個部分那當然他們會依照他們自己的包括一些條件法令的環境他去設計他們自己的百分比跟漲幅的這個公式好那這個部分呢應該是可以來解決出租人跟成租人在吵的一件事情什麼叫做我這個區域的合理租金"},{"start":3094.204,"end":3115.704,"text":"我是怎麼樣的情況下我要漲多少錢是不是像現在一樣房東說了算這個關於人民住宅的這個部分就居住人權來看我們其實是可以來做一些設計的那台灣這邊我們有看到行政院主計總署他有公告租金指數他在消費者物價房屋類指數的這個項目裡面"},{"start":3117.085,"end":3145.448,"text":"其實我看得到這樣的一個相關的一些可參考的政府單位的這個依據那這個其實我們可以把它利用來做這個租金漲幅的上下百分比的一些包括基數包括百分比的一些調整像我們剛剛所研究的四個國家的包括地區的部分可能有看到5%到10%甚至到20%這個就由政府跟專家學者來做一個妥善的"},{"start":3146.048,"end":3168.571,"text":"包括被套設計跟一些經濟環境的一些考量因為時間的關係我把最主要的修法參考的資料各國的立法資料我寫在附件的短文裡面這個包括註腳裡面都有各國法令的依據這個是我們希望能提供給立法院委員們跟專家學者來做一個"},{"start":3169.632,"end":3192.528,"text":"討論的依據如果能用這個現有的租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例來做一個適當的修法其實蠻快的不用再去制定一部這個耗費周章的新法我想這個應該是可以來比較快速的來解決我們現在包括住宅租賃的這個租金漲幅的這個問題以上是我的分享報告謝謝大家"},{"start":3194.146,"end":3216.401,"text":"我請教玉姑妳的重點是妳剛剛後面就說只要修訂租賃是住宅市場發展期管理條例就是規範一年最多調漲一次而且漲幅不可以超過現有租金訂賃時候它的CPI比例的增加率不可超過5%"},{"start":3218.243,"end":3241.725,"text":"對這是我們個人事務所的建議因為5%是什麼的5%就是我們是拿兩個東西來比一個是行政院主計總署租金指數它是一個依據再來就是調漲租金時因為這個我們在換約的時候也許我可能是1月我可能是4月我可能是6月這時候再來看"},{"start":3243.267,"end":3257.804,"text":"這個主計總數的指數因為可能是這個首先它會有年度的指數那再來我們如果是假設我現在是四月我四月換月看看行政院能不能提供大概三月底的指數我們拿這兩個指數來做一個比較來做一個設計"},{"start":3263.211,"end":3281.152,"text":"這個增加率的部分其實大家可以想一下啦就是哪兩個的參考就對了也可以取高也可以取低也可以取平均值這個要看政府對於介入的角色的深度力量來看然後以人民的角度來看這個比率當然越低越好"},{"start":3282.433,"end":3309.923,"text":"那是我的話我也想寫百分之一啊對不對可是這個會受到很多的這個可能有房子的房東做很多的一些意見或抗議不動產一些業者的抗議這個要到時候要靠大家來做一些專業的討論好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝我們業務顧問也是會計師嗎?不好意思我是法律顧問我是法律博士出身"},{"start":3312.575,"end":3314.057,"text":"各位先進 各位學者 專家 大家好"},{"start":3334.363,"end":3356.2,"text":"我想就今天公聽會的題目首先本席要提出幾項我們最近數據的資料第一個就是依據主計總署在3月公布的今年2月全台的房租指數是高達108.06又再創新高年增率也高達2.56%以連續19個月的年增率都超過2%"},{"start":3362.845,"end":3377.65,"text":"第二個數據就是內政部在今年1月所發布的去年3月到12月的租金的平均數結果顯示全國平均租金雖然微幅下降了0.8%從3月的9093元減少到12月的9016元"},{"start":3385.512,"end":3410.34,"text":"但是我們看到其中台北市它的平均租金是高達13054元是最高全國最高新北市則是12923元次之最後的一項數據就是今年二月主計總數的公布資料就是2024年國人的經常性薪資的中位數是37274元"},{"start":3414.921,"end":3430.675,"text":"我們從剛剛本席所提到的各項數據我們得到的結論就是民眾每個月他的房屋租金所造成的生活經濟壓力其實是有增無減的以台北市為例子"},{"start":3431.596,"end":3451.073,"text":"房屋租金的支出已經是佔據民眾經常性支出的三分之一所以就算您有最高八千元的房屋租金的補貼但是同樣我們有高達百分之十三點五的經常性的薪資收入是要用在他的租屋需求上面"},{"start":3451.934,"end":3475.525,"text":"更不用說可以領有八千元租金的補貼戶其實都是中低收入戶所以他的薪資其實這些中低收入戶的薪資根本沒有到達我們剛才所講的國人的薪資的中位數以台北市的中低收入戶得到他的定義他的平均薪資只有兩萬零三百七十九元"},{"start":3476.425,"end":3500.543,"text":"所以我們今天公聽會所談的為有效協助我們的租屋族我們應該再修法提高房屋租金的扣除額確實它是有它討論以及調整的必要因為我們除了房屋租金的支出之外其實我們的民眾還有飲食、交通、教育等各項生活需求的支出所以"},{"start":3502.504,"end":3522.251,"text":"要這些支出以外你算要存款那更是不可能所以我們對於提高房屋租金的扣除和我們不是單純的從租屋的角度去看而是要全面的去觀察全面性的去從他的生活經濟的整體壓力去做考量"},{"start":3523.271,"end":3547.018,"text":"至於我們所購足的房貸利息支出是否應該比照房屋租金列為特別扣除額我想在財政部的專報中提到113年中央銀行等五大銀行新成做的購屋貸款利率是2.171%利息支出30萬元的貸款本金落在大概1400萬"},{"start":3549.339,"end":3564.032,"text":"對一般的首購族以足使用但本席就想問問財政部如果以內政部的單坪房價的價格在台北市1400萬可以買到幾坪的房子"},{"start":3564.946,"end":3582.412,"text":"我算了一下答案是只能買到19.15坪若扣除公設30%在台北市實際只能買到13.615坪的居住空間那我們現在少子化所以我們要鼓勵國人要生小孩"},{"start":3583.112,"end":3601.45,"text":"那就算只生一個小孩13.615坪其實他的居住空間非常非常的小所以難怪我們看到台北市我們現在看到一個狀況就是有脫北的人潮因此財政部的舉例完全是脫離現實"},{"start":3603.352,"end":3625.639,"text":"所以對於首購族的房貸利息我們是不是也應該訂出一個金額數字並列為特別扣除額讓我們的國人更有餘力去買真正適合全家居住的房子當然這個就是有需要討論與增訂的空間所以本席希望我們的政府單位在看到民眾的需求的時候我們應該從客觀的數據去推演實際的狀況才能夠確實了解民眾民之所苦"},{"start":3632.521,"end":3647.263,"text":"尤其未來還要面對各種國際經濟局勢的變遷例如美國的對等關稅所造成的整個物價的上漲未來我們國人的生活的影響經濟上的壓力都是存在許多的變動因素"},{"start":3647.884,"end":3671.879,"text":"因此我們政府單位應該要從更全面的角度去審慎考量我們今天公聽會兩項民生的需求而不應該以今天已經有的政策來推脫或是忽視未來民眾的需求也非常感謝今天各位先進提出我們修法的高見我們大家一起來檢討我們修法的方向以上 謝謝"},{"start":3673.561,"end":3684.369,"text":"好 謝謝李師明委員精彩的發言了下一位請金門大學海洋邊境管理學系的徐教授 請"},{"start":3697.532,"end":3716.906,"text":"主席各位先進大家好那我自己先說明一下我的這個專業背景因為我自己本身是法律學者然後專業背景在憲法所以關於今天的這個討論提綱我能夠貢獻的大概是比較法律層面的一些見解"},{"start":3717.984,"end":3737.976,"text":"那先跟大家回顧就是今天的這個討論提綱前面的這個討論提綱一最主要是牽涉到我們所得稅法的這個所謂的扣除額的一些規定那這些規定呢回顧就是在101年的時候我曾經有接受財政部的一個委託的計畫"},{"start":3739.477,"end":3763.175,"text":"那時候是因為大法官的696號解釋做成之後然後關於夫妻合併申報所得稅到底要改為哪一個制度的委託研究計畫那在當時的這個研究計畫當中我就有很大膽的提出說對於我們的所有的這些扣除額可能要做一個全面的體檢"},{"start":3764.176,"end":3790.553,"text":"那最主要的原因就是我們的稅法在所得稅裡面它是一個加護制然後當時就是被打法官696號解釋宣告違憲之後那就是要改成是否是走這個個人申報制或者是德國的責辦懲惡制那我接受了這個研究計畫那我當時提出來就是這些扣除了要做一個總體檢可是"},{"start":3792.614,"end":3811.352,"text":"後來就是沒有把它做一個完整的立法的一個動作那一直到前年前年我們有一個就是公聽會它是針對這個租金列舉的扣除額要把它改為特別扣除額的一個公聽會那我同樣被邀請了"},{"start":3812.233,"end":3828.2,"text":"在這個公聽會當中呢我大概是一個比較不一樣的一個看法也就是說當時我是極力的反對把租金扣除額列為特別扣除額的唯一的一位學者那當然也受到非常多的指教啦"},{"start":3828.76,"end":3848.371,"text":"那我必須說今天的這個題目呢其實我個人在接觸的過程當中還是本於憲法的這一個觀念要跟大家溝通一些觀念啦也就是說租金的這個列舉扣除額改為租金的特別扣除額當時我為什麼會反對最重要的原因是從憲法的觀點來看"},{"start":3852.033,"end":3871.663,"text":"這個免稅額或者扣除額它其實有輕重緩急之分它在憲法上面的保障密度其實是不一樣的那在這個前提底下呢當時我認為就是把租金的這個扣除額放在列舉的這個狀況底下從憲法來看它應該是受到比較高密度的保障的那如果認為說"},{"start":3873.024,"end":3894.831,"text":"租金的扣除額太低那可能可以考慮提高或者甚至於去提高這個所謂的標準扣除額那當時的這一個見解沒有受到大家的肯定後來修法也就變成是今天這樣子的一個法律的規定那所以今天這一個討論提綱1裡面的第一小題是否要提高租金扣除額"},{"start":3896.071,"end":3914.517,"text":"我個人認為他既然已經被修法放到了所謂的特別扣除額那這個特別扣除額延續之前的這個在列舉扣除額的年代他是怎麼決定這個12萬或者是今天的18萬我覺得這個部分呢我們可能要去爬梳他的立法理由"},{"start":3915.197,"end":3935.804,"text":"那在我們現在改為特別扣除額的情況底下他的18萬呢在立法理由裡面明確的寫出來他是參考108年到111年的行政院主計總署的家庭收支調查報告的消費支出那同樣的這一個參考的標準其實在"},{"start":3936.644,"end":3962.2,"text":"民國89年第一次把房屋租金支出列為列舉扣除額的時候雖然在立法理由裡面沒有清楚的講出來但是在委員的詢答過程當中財政部的官員事實上有把這一點清楚的標示出來那如果把這個立法的慣性歸納出來以後呢會是我現在投影片上面的第二點提出來的一個看法也就是說"},{"start":3962.88,"end":3991.395,"text":"立法者在從一開始制定到後來修改的時候他都是從這個標準來訂定這個扣除額的上限那是否有立法者自我拘束這樣子的意味在裡面那所謂的立法者自我拘束就是說相同者應該為相同對待根據憲法第七條的規定他就應該依據平等原則要相同的處理那除非有一些正當的理由在比例原則底下他才能夠去做"},{"start":3992.335,"end":4009.164,"text":"不做這樣子的一個標準的一個依詢那現在如果說突然之間要把它提高的話那可能關於重大的這個理由正當理由的部分立法者必須在立法理由裡面清楚的交代那我個人的見解"},{"start":4010.104,"end":4035.536,"text":"並不一定說就是這一個18萬元不能調而是說在調的時候立法者要去清楚的交代為什麼我們從一開始的這個參考行政院主計總署的這個調查報告到後來我們改採不用這個調查報告作為我們的依循標準這部分在立法理由部分可能要清楚的去交代出來那再來呢就是有關於討論提綱的第二點"},{"start":4036.556,"end":4061.179,"text":"就是房貸的支出改為特別扣除額那我剛之所以會做剛剛的這個背景的介紹也就是說前年的公聽會我去參加那可能大家也可以預測到說既然在租金改為特別扣除額我就已經反對了那如果現在房貸的利息支出要再改為特別扣除額依循我剛講的這個憲法的保障密度的觀念也就是說"},{"start":4062.421,"end":4076.256,"text":"針對生存權的保障跟針對重大需求的保障跟針對特別需要的保障在憲法的保障上面其實是不太一樣的立法者在修法的時候憲法會去拘束他的力道是不一樣的那"},{"start":4077.197,"end":4097.114,"text":"如果本於同一個思想照理講房貸的利息支出可能對於現代的人民來講它是一個基本生活的重要支出那如果留在特別扣除額可能是比較符合憲法保障的這個力道的不過因為我們剛講了就是租金的這個部分已經移過去特扣了"},{"start":4097.614,"end":4124.054,"text":"那會不會剛剛的這個原則已經被打破了以後的憲法審查必須要變成是分散的也就是說不管他放在列舉扣除額還是放在所謂的特別扣除額憲法的審查都應該要針對個別的事項去考慮他是不是屬於人民基本生活的這個必要來做他的一個憲法上面的審查的標準這可能就是以後會變成是化整為零的一個狀況那"},{"start":4126.555,"end":4155.655,"text":"原先呢就是這一個我們的這個租金扣除額跟這一個房貸扣除額它是一個對稱設計那現在因為修法把這個租金扣除額拿過去這個特別扣除額之後它已經脫鉤了那在這個情況底下我在我的投影片上面為什麼會去引導一個學者的批評這可能是為了給我自己的一個洗白的機會也就是在上一次的公聽會的時候我就已經堅決的反對它改到特別扣除額"},{"start":4156.295,"end":4181.721,"text":"那去年修法改了改了以後有一本最新的我們現階段國內的稅法權威的教科書寫出來他的見解跟我一樣那對我來講呢我看到這一段的見解以後其實我是心有戚戚焉所以我會在這個投影片裡面把它引出來最大的原因就是就是給自己一個洗白的機會代表我當時的堅持是沒有錯的那"},{"start":4183.161,"end":4211.818,"text":"在這一個就是我們柯老師的這個主張裡面呢他事實上有兩個應該要提醒大家的就是說姑且他不管他批評了上一次的修法但是呢他起碼點出了一個重點就是房屋租金特別扣除額跟這一個所謂的房貸的利息支出他應該要同步那這個所謂的同步呢我大概就是歸納一下就是同步的意思就是說他移過去特別扣除額他也要跟著移過去呢"},{"start":4212.518,"end":4239.526,"text":"那如果他也再移過去的話大家想一想列舉扣除而只剩下四個那個捐贈可能大家不常會用到然後災害的那個損失也不常會用到實質上面剩下兩個那幾乎整個在以後稅上的影響就是幾乎每一個人都會全部都主張標扣那標扣以後剩下來的再去列扣那這個狀況底下是不是會變成對高收入者比較有利的情況可能要考慮一下下"},{"start":4240.126,"end":4266.966,"text":"那調高的部分就是那個利息的這個部分那在柯老師的這個看法裡面呢他是認為說房屋租金支出跟這個購屋借款利息應該要同步啦那到底應不應該同步呢我個人跟他其實有不同的看法那如果主張他的看法的話當年12萬比30萬的時候現在18萬要比多少可能可以有一個討論的空間那再來就是"},{"start":4267.466,"end":4295.285,"text":"要以美人還是以美戶呢那我剛已經說了我們的所得稅他仍然是維持家戶制所以呢應該還是美戶的這個觀念會比較好那至於第二個提綱呢剛剛的這個法律顧問的部分呢他已經講得很清楚我只有簡單的就是梳理一下我們現在的土地法跟民法的規定還有就是那個租賃住宅市場發展管理條例的一些規定那我個人認為說"},{"start":4297.706,"end":4315.42,"text":"契約自由是憲法保障的一個基本權在這個狀況底下可能就是要打破這個契約自由去用公權力干涉這個租金的條幅可能以眼下來看是有一些困難的除非立法介入以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":4319.128,"end":4335.565,"text":"謝謝 等一下 我請教你啊你剛剛一直強調你提到的過去獎 劣取跟特別這兩個差別在哪裡啊你有沒有藉這個機會讓你你剛剛一直洗牌洗牌再洗牌一次好了謝謝主席就是說如果從憲法的觀點來看"},{"start":4337.146,"end":4360.268,"text":"關於這個扣除額呢,在我們的租稅法上有一個特殊的原則就是量能課稅原則底下的這個主觀禁止原則就是一個人他要活下去,還有他要有基本的生活的尊嚴還有他要有一些特別的需求那憲法給予他的這個保障,事實上是密度不同的"},{"start":4360.848,"end":4375.978,"text":"那對於要活下去的就是這個吃啊穿啊這個事實上在免稅額裡面就應該要涵蓋進去那列舉扣除額呢我們憲法學者會希望說他就是屬於基本生活維護他尊嚴的部分那像這種醫藥啦或者是"},{"start":4377.819,"end":4404.61,"text":"像以前的租金或者是現在的這個房屋、購屋的這個需要它是人們活下去基本尊嚴的問題跟特別扣除額不一樣特別扣除額有一些政策目的有一些特別的需要那這個狀況底下立法者有比較大的行程空間可以去決定他到底要不要去改它如果經濟的狀況不一樣或者財政的狀況不一樣或者是時代不一樣他都可以去改它憲法不會管它管那麼緊可是前面兩樣憲法會管得很緊"},{"start":4406.391,"end":4433.012,"text":"那所以從這一個理論來看的話留在特別扣留在列舉扣除而對人民來講並不是一件壞事如果是額度低的話那應該去調整額度而不是移他的位置對這是憲法的觀點謝謝不過就老百姓的觀點來講不管你是列舉或者是特別反正可以扣就好了對不對就老百姓的觀點這樣子好我們現在請黃珊珊委員她本身是律師請"},{"start":4442.627,"end":4461.632,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位學者專家我想今天我們台灣民眾黨也在這個議題裡面有一些自己的提案那多年來對於相關租市場的透明化還有針對很多很多的租族他其實沒有辦法得到公平的對待其實我們一直都在想辦法解決"},{"start":4462.472,"end":4489.568,"text":"那當然租金不管是列舉扣除了特別扣除了對租屋族來說都是很重要的一件事情那民眾黨團我們去年提出了所謂的稅法第17條的修正條文就剛剛老師說的我們到底18萬合不合理那為什麼是18萬那我們也把台北市或者是現在幾乎在外面的租屋族他可能需要的相關租金就是他基本生活需要的開銷我們提案是從18萬希望再能夠提高到25萬"},{"start":4490.809,"end":4508.223,"text":"因為一個小套房大概目前租金大概都不低於一萬塊了那更何況是一個小家庭所以到底這樣的標準符不符合相關的所謂的公平正義我們對於民間團體來說對於租屋族來說當然我們還是希望爭取到對民眾比較有利的部分"},{"start":4508.883,"end":4527.81,"text":"第二個部分就是因為房屋的租金不斷的調漲二月份的房屋指數已經再創下新高也就是說年增率高達2.56已經連續19個月的租金年增率都超過2%也就是說租金的高漲已經不單單只是一個物價的問題而它是一個租屋族最深的痛"},{"start":4528.65,"end":4551.287,"text":"那租屋的纠纷也依然频传那财政部一直对于所谓的租屋包括让它阳光化目前为止都还是非常的扭步主要还是因为我们有那么多有二十几万的申请租金补贴但是真正去申报的不到十二万户也就是说有一大半的人不能报不敢报或者是"},{"start":4552.168,"end":4575.782,"text":"房東根本不給他報因為他怕被趕走所以現在的問題是租金支出沒有辦法申報所的扣除而才是問題而不是18萬或25萬的問題因為當你租了一個房子房東不准你去申報的時候你就不會去申報所以我給他30萬50萬都沒有用這才是問題所以政府的照顧我們希望是擴大到中"},{"start":4576.622,"end":4594.707,"text":"下階層的民眾尤其是租金支出成為他生活重要負擔的一部分所以改成特別扣除是希望能夠讓更多的人他有這樣的機會去做扣除最重要的一件事情現在的問題就在於說我們之前這個法案出來之後還有個排付條款"},{"start":4595.467,"end":4610.468,"text":"排富就是說你家人有房子的話你就沒有辦法用租金特別扣除了就產生了非常多在台北漂的孩子或北漂工作的人他因為父母親在鄉下老家有房子所以他在台北的租金不能夠做扣除"},{"start":4610.728,"end":4634.924,"text":"那這部分我們本來要提案修法那財政部很快速的就做了相關的因應之道把紅黃單圍樓就你家的房子已經是紅黃單或者是災損或者是只是共有持份的或者是就醫就學能夠拿出證明在異地租屋的還有配偶因為有保護令而分居的方法這些都可以提出所謂的租金補貼也就是說法令執行面必須要符合現實的狀態那現在還有一塊就是"},{"start":4638.266,"end":4656.574,"text":"五月份要報稅了六月好像延到六月了現在我們希望財政部在租金扣除的部分要大力的宣傳尤其是可能還有很多的學校現在連宿舍的租金其實也應該可以讓他們抵扣但是很多人並不知道尤其是家長也不清楚所以除了"},{"start":4657.094,"end":4657.494,"text":"現在的房東他其實不是"},{"start":4675.066,"end":4700.259,"text":"在不在乎他這個租金有沒有申報他在乎的是他在租給人家房子之後過了幾年他賣房子的時候他的稅率比較高所以他造成是他不願意讓所有的只要是出租的他都不願意讓人家申報不是擔心他每年的這個所得稅而已他擔心的是將來的交易稅這才是我們整個租屋市場沒有辦法陽光化的最重要的原因這些事情不解決"},{"start":4701.42,"end":4720.921,"text":"你是沒有辦法讓所有的房東都把他的房子拿出來租還大喇喇告訴政府說其實我有出租而且我很驕傲錯 我們是要他們我們的法制是要讓他們繼續在陰暗的角落裡面因為他要規避他將來高額的所謂的交易稅所以重點是在於我們的稅制要不要做整體的討論"},{"start":4722.543,"end":4745.434,"text":"在20年前我們開過全國複稅會議每20年大概都會開一次所以我們也要求財政部在最近也快到20年了這20年我們也應該在就台灣的稅制開一個全國複稅會議包括在座的專家學者都應該能夠提供他們對稅制的一些看法所以我們認為說居住正義不單單只是一條"},{"start":4746.354,"end":4766.681,"text":"列舉客處而是各種稅制的做法都必須要納入那最後舉個例子韓國有個很可愛的做法他說因為要拯救國內中小微企業所以針對商辦的租金商辦的房東他有個善良房租房東的租稅優惠也就是你對你的"},{"start":4767.361,"end":4794.15,"text":"房東願意降租金國家就給你更好的稅付優惠也就是減租的50%可以從他的所得稅裡面扣除如果我們讓房東光榮的拿出他的房子也願意向政府來申報我們是不是有這樣的一個方式讓所有的房市能夠鋪在陽光之下也讓整個租屋的黑市能夠拿得出來然後也協助我們的中小企業以上 謝謝大家"},{"start":4796.384,"end":4805.187,"text":"謝謝黃委員很有建設性的發言我們下一位請郡軍國際法律事務所律師游俊彥"},{"start":4811.932,"end":4837.817,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位在座的委員以及各位在座的先進我是右傑律師那因為剛剛前面的各位先進已經報告了很多了那我其實這邊我不想讓它重複那我們這邊其實我這邊是主要想跟在座各位先進跟專學者表達的是說其實蔡英文不久前大家討論的居住正義其實好像都比較保護到個人那我們這邊其實是希望說在這個保護的機制上面可以擴大到中小企業"},{"start":4838.797,"end":4861.168,"text":"因為其實從法律面的程度來看就我們實務上面的觀察其實這幾年來租約的爭議的確很多但是大家可以看得到就租金的爭議在法律的實務上面我們常常可以看到的是誰其實是租房東來告房客為什麼會房東來告房客其實就是因為租金的問題"},{"start":4862.797,"end":4881.35,"text":"其實在商業租金裡面大家可以知道其實一個中小企業它的成本上面最負擔的是什麼最多的其實就是它的租金的結構它租金的成本那在租約在一般跟民眾我覺得最大的不同是說如果今天民眾一般的租住權他認為他住在這個地方公寓太貴了"},{"start":4882.19,"end":4904.641,"text":"他可以搬錢可是一旦中小企業在那邊地方落地生根之後他的經濟來源他的顧客其實他是固定的所以相對來講其實他要去換屋他要搬錢在另外地方做生意其實對他來講是比一般的住屋來講他是更困難的其實以最近的新聞來看我們通口飯糰大家也知道現在租金結構已經房東要漲到"},{"start":4906.302,"end":4928.107,"text":"因為它整個營運結構它已經占到71%了百分之71%的結構所以中小企業哪有辦法去負擔這樣子71%高達71%的營運成本在它的營運成本比例是占這麼高的一個比例所以這部分如果說如果因為其實法律上面是有規定就是說情勢變更大家也知道情勢變更是可以訴訟法院來調漲這個租金但是從我們法院實務上面的觀察"},{"start":4933.89,"end":4942.805,"text":"即使在前兩年的新冠肺炎的程度下房客去要求房東調降租金法院也只讓你調降一成"},{"start":4943.86,"end":4970.863,"text":"也就是它只降了10%可是在租約期滿之後房東他要調漲的成數會到哪邊會到20%以上所以現在來講我們在法院實務的觀察房客在租屋市場這邊去談判租金的能力它本身就已經是比較弱勢的如果說我們今天沒有讓房客這邊有一個法律明確的保障的話"},{"start":4971.203,"end":4991.624,"text":"那在以後樹莊上面的層面上面其實房客會一直在樹莊層面會有一個弱勢的一個情形的存在所以我們是希望說法律這邊可以明文的來規範說在以後商業住宅的這個租屋的市場上面租金的調漲是有一個上限有一個法律規範的存在像剛剛黃山寨委員他其實有提到這個問題"},{"start":4992.645,"end":5012.074,"text":"他說韓國的做法他是鼓勵房東可以調降這個租金優惠在商業條件這邊可以優惠到房客其實這個做法是相當的我個人是非常贊同因為我們現在看到的狀況都是因為這樣子因為房客房東一旦看到房客他的生意好了"},{"start":5012.834,"end":5038.102,"text":"他賺錢了甚至在民法45條他也有規定就是說因為不通產價值的調漲因為這樣連房價波動很大所以他可以因為房價波動的關係來去請求注定的調漲或調價但是其實我們在實務上面來看得到房客要去跟房客說因為你的今天的這個"},{"start":5040.503,"end":5067.862,"text":"房價降跌了所以我的租金也要下降這個在實務上目前我沒有看到已經有告成功的但是因為房客因為他的房屋他的房價上漲了他要去跟房客要求更多的房的租金這個在法律上是有前例的所以相對來講大家可以看得到雖然法院規定法律規定在那邊好像看似很公平但實際上我們在實務操作上面來看其實沒有看過這樣的案例"},{"start":5068.602,"end":5095.052,"text":"所以說為什麼今天藉由這個場合跟大家先進跟委員專家我們希望說表達一個心聲希望說這樣子的優惠條件一樣可以再擴大適用到中小企業上面至於說法制同意當然我們有更多的材質都在學習在這邊我這邊就因為我不是那麼專業所以我們就不太過度的涉入但是我這邊最後我希望是表達就是說在法律層面上面希望法律修法這邊可以更明文的規定對於"},{"start":5095.712,"end":5112.004,"text":"在商業住宅上面租金調檔的限制以及對於房客中小企業保障可以更多明文化的限制以防其實這個也是因為現在出了案件也非常多如果有法律這樣的限制的話其實這對法院的負擔我認為是有非常一個明顯的效益存在好 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5117.007,"end":5145.709,"text":"好 謝謝有歷史的高見你們有關於對中小企業租屋方面能不能事後提一個修法的意見好不好我們可以來參考一下因為這一塊大家關心的比較少大家關心的是資源租產這一部分你這是專門為中小企業譬如說現在已經發生過這樣的事情了因為房東的不正常或者是"},{"start":5146.75,"end":5163.604,"text":"跟這個比較異常的大幅度的條狀促進他可能被迫削業啦或者是就關掉啦 這種情況我們希望藉著你這個如果提修法的話我們可以來參考好不好 謝謝下一位請李彥秀委員來發言請"},{"start":5171.819,"end":5189.214,"text":"非常感謝昭緯今天排的公聽會他今天的主題就是因應房價的高漲為有效的協助租屋族跟首購族然後我們看看我們透過今天的公聽會未來如何去減輕包括落實我們未來房屋租金列為特別扣除額"},{"start":5190.035,"end":5206.63,"text":"我們大家都常常在談說土地正義土地正義那土地正義落實除了手購族租屋族之外其實在分布在每一個年齡層或者是剛進入社會或準備成家的很多年輕的夫婦其實都有面臨"},{"start":5207.771,"end":5232.567,"text":"租金非常高或者是現在買房子的負擔特別重我們也希望透過今天的公聽會我們可以把更多不同的面向關注到未來在修法的過程當中可以讓我們的修法可以照顧到每一個不同需要的這些對象那最近我們房價的持續的攀升包括原物料其實什麼都漲"},{"start":5234.308,"end":5238.289,"text":"內政部最新公布113年我們第三季的房價負擔能力統計的成果比我們全國房貸負擔率為46.8%這代表的我們其實房貸已經佔我們現在我們所得比將近到50%其實也就是1比1"},{"start":5255.954,"end":5264.599,"text":"那房價的負擔能力維持為偏低的等級尤其在台北市房貸的負擔率其實是達到高到71.82%那房價所得比高達16.6倍"},{"start":5271.603,"end":5277.647,"text":"但是我們都非常清楚知道我們第七次的房貸的管制我們目前一般銀行給予房貸的利率大概落在2.5%到3%左右那利息負擔其實是非常沉重的"},{"start":5287.473,"end":5309.381,"text":"這也影響著我們目前購屋意願跟家庭的規劃這些挑戰其實凸顯著我們現在居住正義的迫切性那當然我們現在租屋族同樣面臨高租金的壓力這兩年我們經過統計我們漲幅最高的其實就是外食族在外面吃飯的費用增加許多"},{"start":5309.801,"end":5326.998,"text":"另外一個就是最近這一兩年租金增高非常的多這是負擔最重的所以許多人每個月負擔租金的支出佔總收入的達到30%台北市去年平均租金更高達每一坪達到1463塊可見"},{"start":5329.921,"end":5338.946,"text":"不論是租屋族或者是房貸的壓力現在都是非常的沉重財政部在今天的報告當中也指出來我們現在房貸的利息扣除額最高可達到30萬元它是可涵蓋1400萬貸款的利息支出但是對於首購族而言財政部認為對首購族而言"},{"start":5353.675,"end":5368.672,"text":"是已經足夠的但是我個人認為對於租屋族的經濟能力其實租屋族反而在經濟能力上是相對比較薄弱的我個人認為也應該優先支持但是我認為房貸利息改為特別扣除了並"},{"start":5369.833,"end":5386.746,"text":"沒有跟支持租屋族有衝突反而更能夠全面的來落實我們的居住正義那首購族在租屋的初期利息佔還款的比例相對是比較高的因為我們大家都知道一般都是先還利息再還本金"},{"start":5387.406,"end":5412.255,"text":"若比照租金扣除额设为特别的扣除额可以大幅的减轻财务上的压力鼓励年轻人购屋成家而现在房贷的利息支出虽然列举在扣除额当中但是并没有办法跟我们现在的标准扣除额并用限制了实际的效益所以我更认为改为特别扣除额才有真正实际的帮助"},{"start":5413.175,"end":5429.142,"text":"那最后以上我讲的几点我认为房贷的利息改为特别扣除额可设定在30万元的上限跟排付的条款确保协助收入比较少的首购主另外在上个会期我有特别提出来住宅法的修法"},{"start":5429.682,"end":5443.715,"text":"我們未來我們希望現在很多房東空屋我們希望可以提供出來做出租所以我們希望可以提高公益出租跟包租代管的免稅額如果這些房子有辦法釋放出來的話那這也是增加一些誘因讓我們未來想租房子的選擇性也可以比較多那對於房東"},{"start":5453.123,"end":5472.945,"text":"他如果有這個租金的扣除免稅額的話他的意願也會比較高藉此增加投入社會住宅的數量這也可以落實賴清德總統對於社會住宅的數量包含我們前面開租的巫術希望能夠藉此這些措施來減輕民眾的負擔以上"},{"start":5476.018,"end":5486.519,"text":"好 謝謝李委員的發言下一位請奧爾斯都市改革組織研究員廖廷輝廖先生請"},{"start":5502.045,"end":5528.392,"text":"主席主席會員各位先進大家好那對於第一點就是租金的特別扣除額的部分目前的房屋租金其實已經一列到特別扣除額了而當時的修法理由有三個第一個是原本的列舉扣除額12萬那個已經是1999年訂的數字了那所以它在跟隨著我們在標準扣除額跟免稅額不斷提升的狀況底下其實它的使用率變得非常的低"},{"start":5528.872,"end":5548.438,"text":"它只有2.2%到2.7%的租屋族在使用那使用率低的原因其實就是因為我們標準扣除額因為提高的關係所以租屋族使用列舉扣除額省下來的稅額是非常有限的就一個單身青年來說的話他使用標準扣除額跟列舉扣除租金他的稅額可能差不到一千塊"},{"start":5549.238,"end":5562.86,"text":"但是他必須要費時費力的減負相關資料不像標準扣除而你只要一路往下在系統上往下點就好了而且你還要克服租黑市的風險可能房東還會不讓你報稅或者是不跟你續約等等這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":5564.042,"end":5590.192,"text":"那第三個就是我們在上次的立法理由裡面其實也很明確的表示說都使用了標準扣除的狀況但是租屋族的生活支出比較重卻沒有繳更少的稅所以為了照顧弱勢的無屋族群所以在上一次2023年的那一次修法的時候才把房屋的租金列舉扣除把它改列到特別扣除項目那雖然這件事情已經完成了"},{"start":5592.549,"end":5620.425,"text":"財政部內會給了一些限制包含就是要先扣掉租金補貼的部分以及有房屋者是不得適用雖然後面還有一些排除的相關的項目那今年新制就要上路了我覺得其實更嚴重的耽誤自己是很多租屋族他可能還是沒有辦法知道就是說現在其實把房屋的租金已經可以用特別扣除來去進行了那而且很多房客他還是會擔心說如果他要用"},{"start":5620.905,"end":5649.758,"text":"租金去報稅的話房東會不會對他有不利益的待遇所以我們會認為說針對房東拒絕房客申請的這個現象我們之前也開過記者會希望財政部會去有一個申訴專線而這個申訴專線後來財政部的回應是說有啊現在本來就已經有各式各樣的專線可以去做諮詢的我們要的不是這樣子的一個諮詢專線而是如果今天有一個房客他打電話到財政部說我的房東不讓我用租金抵稅"},{"start":5650.538,"end":5668.48,"text":"或者是說我房東跟我說用租金抵稅他就要漲我租金他下次都不租我那財政部應該優先的就去查這些人嗎為什麼這些房東不讓房客抵稅我們不管在因記載不得記載事項裡面也好或者是說我們比方說公益出租人上面的優惠也好其實"},{"start":5669.381,"end":5686.881,"text":"如果房東是合法在繳稅的話他沒有理由去拒絕房客報稅所以會去拒絕的會去做不利益待遇的房東本來就一定是在逃漏稅所以財政部應該去加強這部分的查核因為我們過去問了很多次的資料每年財政部到底抓了多少房東逃漏稅"},{"start":5687.702,"end":5710.724,"text":"那財政部除了給專案查核資料以外其實他都說每年我們都非常積極的重點在查核但是因為他會跟其他的所得稅的項目並列在一起所以無法拆開每年抓了多少租屋逃漏稅那我覺得至少這一塊尤其在今年報稅季的部分應該特別去鎖定這一些拒絕房客報稅的這些房東去做他的查核"},{"start":5712.383,"end":5726.489,"text":"那對於租金的抵扣額度來說到底要不要增加呢雖然在上次修法的時候我們的主張是要增加的不管是24萬也好30萬也好因為目前的特別扣除了18萬其他對應得到的是每個月租金1.5萬"},{"start":5727.87,"end":5745.737,"text":"對但是其實台北市大家都知道如果你要租一個一般的家庭式的租屋的話其實兩萬多三萬多是非常常見的狀況所以三十萬他算算成每個月就是2.5萬元而且因為這個是時之時報如果你沒有你實際上的租金沒有這麼高的話"},{"start":5746.277,"end":5771.033,"text":"你也不會用到這麼多的額度所以我們那時候是希望30萬元的但是畢竟這件事情在今年5月才要上路所以我們其實也還是可以覺得說等到今年的報稅結果統計完畢之後我們再試情況說這個額度大家滿不滿意我們要不要再做調整因為今年才要上路而已更重要的是如果這件事情它是為了要去降低租屋族的負擔的話不是只靠抵稅就好應該要去健全或擴大租屋市場"},{"start":5771.973,"end":5798.012,"text":"為什麼明明房東不可以拒絕房客抵稅很多房客還是不敢那就是因為現在租屋市場狀況很糟嘛一個相對還OK的物件OK的價格看房子的人都是五個十個在排你在租屋族你在那個現場你敢舉手問房東說不好意思可不可以抵稅可不可以攝戶籍可不可以申請租補你敢問嗎你敢問房東就直接把你踢掉就選下一個人了要租房子的人多的是不差你一個"},{"start":5798.872,"end":5828.24,"text":"所以目前就是說隨著房價上漲需要租房子的人其實是越來越多的那變成是供給其實沒有相對另一個提升所以租屋市場的供需失衡但是這種供需失衡的狀況底下我們即便在法律上給予房客相關的權利在市場機制底下房客真的敢用嗎這個其實是我們非常需要考慮的問題所以我們會覺得說財政部應該要扮演關鍵角色但是卻長期怠惰的有兩點一個是引導空屋的出租使用第二個是租屋市場透明化"},{"start":5829.67,"end":5858.663,"text":"第一點就是增加租屋的供給裡面包含了空餘屋釋出跟引導民間新辦租賃住宅第一個部分尤其是跟財政部有關我們2020年普查的時候空屋數有117.5萬而且這已經排除掉偶爾自住的空屋什麼是偶爾自住的空屋像是鄉下的鄒處墾丁的度假宅夏天去衝浪這些我都已經排除掉了還有117.5萬保守估計我們的空屋率有12%每八間房子就有一間是空的而且有三分之二在六都地區"},{"start":5859.463,"end":5882.432,"text":"最先的圖像是房價很貴、空屋很多、年輕人買不起又租不好因為我們對於空置來說基本上是沒有任何懲罰的那這件事情在2023年我們租客聯盟在去舉辦促進公屋使用論壇的時候也邀了當時的所有政黨的委員一起來發表意見然後也提出了民間的版本跟各個政黨的版本大家可以掃QR code參考"},{"start":5883.132,"end":5911.418,"text":"那另外一個部分是去引導民間去興辦社會住宅目前我們的土地飆售機制其實也是非常不合理不過這部分是比較偏內政部的職責就給大家書面參考就可以了那第二個部分是租屋市場透明化我們只有在剛剛說把空屋釋出租屋供給提升之後你去把透明化這件事情解決才有意義因為現在目前內政部跟財政部都很害怕要把租屋市場整個透明化為什麼因為如果透明化的話"},{"start":5912.518,"end":5935.123,"text":"會造成市場閉鎖嘛會造成租金上漲嘛在說租金實價登錄的時候內政部反對也是這個理由那如果我們今天直接說所有的房東我們全部都要查核如果說這麼多的租屋黑死為什麼財政部查不到一個是人力問題一個是如果真的查到他一不爽房東把房子收回來租屋市場狀況是不是變得更差那所以我們在這邊"},{"start":5936.283,"end":5954.898,"text":"解決了租屋供給提升之後我們也要面對房東對於透明化的疑慮包含就是納入中手稅他的所得稅息會提升長期倒漏稅他害怕政府秋後算帳那交易所得稅即便他是公益出租人他也不能適用於自住優惠所以我們會覺得說這個部分都應該要透過稅制層面進行改革"},{"start":5955.638,"end":5982.333,"text":"具體來說的話我覺得面對這些房東的疑慮跟困境可以採用分離課稅、大赦條款、五例出租等等的方式去降低房東轉向合法的成本我們要做的是現在絕大多數的房東都是違法房東那財政部要查是不可能查得完的我們要讓合法的比例增加違法的比例下降我們再加強去查核才有可能去做到這件事情那如果說空屋稅或者是促進住宅使用稅它是一個棒子"},{"start":5982.873,"end":6001.514,"text":"那對於房東這部分的痛點的解決的改革跟優惠其實它就是一個蘿蔔我們要一手蘿蔔一手棒子我們才有可能把整個租屋市場把它搞得更好所以這個是我們覺得說比起去調抵扣額這件事情其實財政部有更多的稅務相關的事情可以去改善我們整體的租屋市場"},{"start":6002.535,"end":6022.921,"text":"那第二個是首購族的房貸利息扣除如前所述我們剛剛說租金支出扣除它主要有兩個理由使用率低跟分配正義問題但是購屋貸款利息支出其實都沒有類似的問題第一件事情是實務上來說我們目前用自用住宅抵扣的利息的人數比例是我們租屋抵稅的十倍以上"},{"start":6023.641,"end":6039.56,"text":"而且我們目前因為是抵扣利息的關係平均的抵扣基金額只有12.7萬元最高價的台北市也是16.5所以30萬元的額度目前就購物來說其實是夠用的那第二個是更嚴重我們目前的底稅它其實並沒有準確補貼到首購組啊我們現在的"},{"start":6042.103,"end":6059.686,"text":"規定是本人配偶及受撫養親屬持有的自用住宅就好了所以他其實即便有很多間房子他也可以選擇符合上述規範的用那一間來進行申報就好了跟守購族完全沒有關係所以不管是在使用率或在分配正義上面這兩個稅制的抵扣其實都是完全不同的議題"},{"start":6061.687,"end":6091.35,"text":"那如果真的要去思考房貸利息的抵稅或稅額抵免的優惠的話我們會建議參考美國的這個制度喔他們是一個房貸利息的稅額抵免它是直接從因納稅額中扣除它的效果更強它的條件就非常的嚴格它限制的是首次購屋者真的是首購主而且你購買的房子必須作為主要居所就是那一間你主要住的那一間而且它對於申請者的收入跟你買的房子的房價都有限制對 然後再給一個抵免比例這個才是真的準確的幫助到我們的首購主嘛"},{"start":6091.73,"end":6112.741,"text":"不然的話以目前的狀況來說以目前的利息的抵扣如果它直接移到特扣的話其實會有很多不是首購族的人也一起被照顧到了那我們覺得這個在分配生意上是值得商榷的那所以我們的看法跟建議是既有的購屋貸款利息支出的抵稅實在是沒有提高額度的必要而且實務上我們應該要更加強支出住宅規範的落實"},{"start":6113.982,"end":6141.326,"text":"那如果真的要降低首購族的購物壓力那個關鍵其實是房價嘛不是鼓勵借更多錢心安是這個邏輯那利息抵稅也是這個邏輯其實就是讓借錢的成本變得更低而已那最終解決了什麼問題什麼問題都沒有解決那如果真的要考量首購族的話真的要改列特別扣除我們的建議是第一個嚴格限制什麼叫做首購族它只限於用於第一次購物才是首購族第二個是它要有收入的上限你一定要是"},{"start":6142.458,"end":6163.598,"text":"比方說中位數以下我們真的需要幫助到的不夠錢買房子的這些人才是我們要幫助的對象那他也不能是去買豪宅所以我們要去有一個房屋的價格上限我們會覺得這樣的修正會更加的妥善BUS有超過一點時間最後一個是租金合理條幅規範許多國家他都有設置這個規範大家可以參考比方說法國他們是用參考租金然後再去設置一個"},{"start":6164.859,"end":6192.201,"text":"漲幅上限那荷蘭他是直接用一個租金作為一個標準那低於某個租金以下的是由政府部門直接來去給予他的橋樑幅度高於這個租金的是你工資增長加1%你最多只能漲這個樣子比方說今年工資增長4%那你的房租都只能漲5%這是他們的規定那韓國我們的鄰居最近的是2020年他們制定他是續約的時候租金漲幅不可以超過5%而且他們現在才正式的訂說是說有保障租期的制度"},{"start":6192.881,"end":6208.308,"text":"是沒有台灣都是一年一約可是在韓國你租房子至少就是四年起跳所以如果我們要去規範租金條幅上限的話其實我們還有很多前置作業沒有做第一個我們還是說租屋工具是失衡的你即便規範了租金條幅房東還是可以不續租"},{"start":6208.908,"end":6230.022,"text":"或者是說高額的雜費、清潔費因為我們電費也管制了所以我們就繞過這個條幅的規定實際上房客的負擔還是很重第二個是租屋黑市還是很龐大資訊是不透明的所以當政府沒辦法掌握到現在比方說台北市大安區屋齡30年的公寓大廈整層住家它的平均的租金中位數是多少"},{"start":6230.362,"end":6247.135,"text":"這些事情如果不知道的話我們要怎麼樣去制定一個漲幅的標準我們政府手上是根本沒有資訊的那第三個就是我們目前也沒有租期的保障租期過短 你一年約為主你換約的時候如果都可以漲5%你每年漲5% 每年漲5%也是一個非常可怕的數字好 我的報告到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝廖廷維廖廷維 廖廷維現在會請麥義正委員發言 請"},{"start":6272.967,"end":6291.701,"text":"主席好各位親愛的家人大家好謝謝我們專家學者還有我們今天的財政委員會我們賴昭偉舉辦這次的秀法公聽會讓我們有機會共同探討如何透過稅制的改革"},{"start":6294.223,"end":6317.021,"text":"確確的協助台灣廣大租金租金組與首購組減輕這一代年輕人的生活壓力居住正義這個議題在內政委員會我們不管是台灣民眾黨或其他委員們一直都在努力推動修法與改革就是希望"},{"start":6318.102,"end":6330.748,"text":"當民眾面對台灣的高房價我們不能再以過去的思維看待租屋或購屋的支出不是單單個人的選擇問題而是間接關係到年輕人的未來社會經濟的結構 生意力等重大議題"},{"start":6342.95,"end":6361.44,"text":"都會區小家庭顧及每年約花30萬元的租金支出在已經排付條款的限制下為落實居住正義、鼓勵生意、照顧離鄉背景、升學及工作者台灣民眾黨黨團提出"},{"start":6363.541,"end":6380.811,"text":"調高房屋租金支出特別扣除至25萬以符合實際房市的狀況減輕租屋主的負擔另外若納稅義務人配合或者撫養直系親屬"},{"start":6383.772,"end":6397.777,"text":"申請的承租租宅地址與納稅義務人配合這些房屋就是扶養直系親屬 設有房屋同屋"},{"start":6398.837,"end":6413.966,"text":"直轄市的不同的縣市也可以減除房屋租金或者支出的特別扣除額這些修法方向就是希望我們減輕租屋的負擔以國家財政穩固"},{"start":6419.537,"end":6442.912,"text":"租稅公平之間的平衡通過今天的公聽會希望能聽到大家的專家學者讓我們的年輕人還有我們一些弱勢族群包含就是我們的老人新住民還有就是需要居住的社會住宅希望大家共同來給政府"},{"start":6445.154,"end":6460.764,"text":"最棒最實際讓我們人民可以收回的政策才真真的是讓我們福國利民希望大家一起給我們更多的建議更多的踴躍提出"},{"start":6461.344,"end":6474.318,"text":"更多的立法的我們還沒有足的地方讓我們立法院我們所有的立委一起來去努力因為在我們內政今天也是在講這個議題我們希望在這個"},{"start":6477.763,"end":6502.331,"text":"會期可以把這個問題解決不是像我們的內政部都是年底年底不到哪一年的年底才能做好我們希望我們在這個會期我們所有的努力的委員為我們的年輕人弱勢族群是我們的民眾要福國利民的政策真正的落實謝謝大家"},{"start":6505.967,"end":6513.119,"text":"好 謝謝麥委員的發言 下面請政大財政系的羅光大教授"},{"start":6525.951,"end":6545.484,"text":"主席還有在場的各部會的代表還有專家學者大家早安我是政治大學財政學系羅光的羅教授今天非常高興有這個機會來特別針對房屋租金特別扣除和手購主的房貸利息支出比照房屋租金列為特別扣除的議題發表自己的一個看法"},{"start":6546.344,"end":6555.612,"text":"在正式回應今天兩個提案的議題之前我們先來看一下目前的現況還有幾個數字我們再來看一下說我自己的一個想法"},{"start":6556.532,"end":6580.468,"text":"目前來說的話其實在1.13年度的時候我們已經把租金支出從列舉扣除額改成所謂的特別扣除額也從12萬把它上升到18萬不過這樣子的一個特別扣除額來說有兩個排除的限制第一個是有排除掉有污組的限制第二個是排除掉排付的條款"},{"start":6580.948,"end":6606.536,"text":"那承諾剛剛這個黃珊珊委員來說的話的一個說明那其實財政部在制定這個特別扣除額的時候其實很迅速的一個回應了幾個一個自由住宅排除有屋主上面的限制那一些圍樓或說毀損特別是你可能已經有自由住宅但是因為工作或是說就學的關係你到外縣市去租屋來說的話那其實都可以還是列為所謂的特別扣除額"},{"start":6607.276,"end":6621.172,"text":"那另外排除條款來說的話那當然在排付上面來說的話也是回應了大家一般民眾的一個期待那除了這個相關的條件之外呢這個租金支出列為特別扣除相對於其他的特別扣除來說的話"},{"start":6622.553,"end":6642.105,"text":"需要多一点的所谓的行政的作业那我们的薪资特别扣除额或者说业务学龄前的特别扣除额只要你身份或者特别的所得既为事实来说的话不用举列任何的文件都可以列为特别扣除额但是租金支出特别扣除额来说的话就必须提出相关的一些文件"},{"start":6642.845,"end":6660.371,"text":"那除了這個租金支出的特別扣除額之外呢那今天的議題有一個特別是針對首購主房貸利息支出呢是不是要列為特別扣除額的相關規定那目前來說的話呢我們目前的稅制並沒有特別針對首購主房貸利息支出列為特別扣除額的這樣子的一個規定"},{"start":6661.872,"end":6689.407,"text":"不過這個房貸利息支出來說目前是列在所謂的列舉扣除額那相關的規定來說的話相信在座的專家學者都非常的了解那目前來說的話也不超過30萬元為一個上限那我們剛剛有看到它有所謂的列舉扣除額有所謂的標準扣除額但是在稅法上面來說還有一個標準扣除額那我們就稍微的來看一下標準列舉跟特別來說的話有什麼不同"},{"start":6690.051,"end":6717.25,"text":"那標準扣除來說的話呢那其實就是政府呢直接給定一個金額不論你有沒有這些支出那我們目前來說的話呢就直接從這個所得這個金額上面來扣除不需要準備相關的文件那列舉來說的話呢就是說申報戶呢把一年以來的特定的項目的實際支出呢提出相關文件之後呢再從這個所得的總額當中加以扣除那目前來說的話有些像捐贈啊或說人身保險來說的話"},{"start":6718.331,"end":6747.261,"text":"那不過呢 標準跟列舉呢 申報戶來說的話呢只能兩個選一個來試用那另外的特別扣除而來說的話其實呢 我個人認為來說它就是一個加碼的一個優惠除了二選一的標準跟列舉之外你只要符合特定的身份或有一些特定的收入的來源之後呢那我們政府呢 在所得稅法當中呢就可以加碼的優惠所以它是屬於專屬的特定的收入或專屬的特定的一個族群"},{"start":6748.081,"end":6762.45,"text":"那了解這個大概的背景之後呢那我們就來看一下目前的一些申報戶的一個現況我們給了那麼多的一些列舉給了那麼多的標準扣除而來說話到底是哪些人在用或者有沒有人在用那以目前110"},{"start":6763.932,"end":6780.584,"text":"11年度的綜合所得稅的這個初步核定的統計專冊的數字來說的話大概我們全國大概有663萬戶的一個中所稅的申報戶但是我們從我這個投影片的資料我們很明顯的看得出來不用繳稅的戶數其實佔了293萬戶佔了44.19%這樣子的比例那適用的5%的稅率的申報戶也高達了236萬戶"},{"start":6792.333,"end":6798.699,"text":"高達了35.6%這樣子的比例所以兩個我們講的不用繳稅再加上最低的稅率的編輯稅率的這樣兩個族群來說話其實高達了529萬戶將近八成的這樣子的申報戶是不用繳稅或是用最低的稅率"},{"start":6809.989,"end":6830.341,"text":"那在663萬戶的申報戶當中使用標準扣除額的有590.6萬戶所以將近九成的申報戶他直接使用一個不用提出任何的申請的文件然後一個統一的一個金額直接扣掉的給將近九成那使用列舉扣除額大概將近十成左右"},{"start":6831.081,"end":6846.768,"text":"好 那當然我們就想要進一步來看一下說有那麼多的列舉扣除額有那麼多的特別扣除額那到底哪一些的項目是最非常實用不過因為資料的一個限制特別是長照的特別扣除額跟租金特別扣除額呢"},{"start":6847.208,"end":6874.85,"text":"其實在2019年和2024年才開始試用所以說這個資料上面來說的話沒辦法就即時的呈現不過正好我在2018年的時候有承接財政部的一個相關的委託研究計畫我就利用2018年我自己做的這個研究計畫相對應的資料稍微的說明一下在2018年這個數字差不多大概九成是用採取標準扣除額大概只有十成採取列舉扣除額"},{"start":6875.49,"end":6901.869,"text":"那在列舉扣除額當中我們有很多有捐贈 有人身保險 有障害損失那以申報人身保險 特別是健保和醫療生育以及人身保險的非健保這三個是最多的那在所有的申報戶當中來說的話大概有八成八左右的申報戶有申報所謂的薪資特別扣除額那第二個高的使用的是所謂的儲蓄投資特別扣除額"},{"start":6902.609,"end":6926.767,"text":"身心障礙、教育學費和幼年學齡前的特別扣除額來說的話大概只有60萬人的家戶就這樣子使用我們大概可以稍微小結一下大概九成是用標準扣除額十成是用列舉扣除額二選一的情況之下當然列舉的金額如果大於財政部所給定的標準扣除額它才有用意去使用在2025年來說的話目前"},{"start":6929.108,"end":6949.221,"text":"單身來說的話是13.1萬夫妻合併是26.2萬那特別的扣除來說是加碼的優惠所以說如果把租金支出還有未來的首購組列為扣除來說確實可以加惠民眾不過剛剛的資料我們也看得出來我國目前不用繳稅的這個中所稅的"},{"start":6951.162,"end":6964.993,"text":"這個申報戶呢佔了44%左右所以並不是我們給了這樣的租稅優惠之後呢所有的租屋主或所有的守戶主呢都可以是實際受惠的家戶那特別是所得分位呢比較低的一個家戶"},{"start":6965.974,"end":6984.509,"text":"那了解這個背景之後我們就回應今天兩個討論的提綱那第一個來說的話是不是要把這個租金列為特別扣除了那目前其實已經列為特別扣除了那今年五月報稅的時候就可以適用不過資料成為我們剛剛所做還要再繼續的觀察一下"},{"start":6985.509,"end":7002.334,"text":"這個租屋主如果他沒有申報中小稅或是說他根本的適用稅率是零來說的話根本也沒辦法適用另外其實我這裡也要幫財政部講一點話其實我們都給財政部太多太多的期待我們希望他利用所謂的租稅的工具"},{"start":7002.694,"end":7027.607,"text":"特別是租稅優惠達成某些我們這個政策的目的但是這些租稅的優惠能不能夠達成這樣的目的其實我是覺得有時候除了一個稅收損失之外對租稅公平或者是說租稅的效率上面來說的話其實都會受到一些傷害甚至有一點是被公辦的這樣子的一個效果那還不如我們把這樣子的一個工作財政部的工作先把這個租稅這個完整的一個稅收的一個"},{"start":7030.669,"end":7046.077,"text":"收入之後呢再強化一些我們的租金補貼的支出政策來說的話呢那其實是比較明確而且是比較有效的那第二個那是不是首購族的這個房貸的利息呢你以為特別扣除了那一樣根據資料上面的呈現來說的話"},{"start":7047.277,"end":7069.713,"text":"我覺得我還是希望有所保留因為是不是我們希望能夠幫忙的這些要從低收入戶或所得分位比較低的家庭能夠幫忙到來說的話從資料來說的話如果他沒有申報租稅稅如果他是用稅率是零來說的話我給予再多的這樣租稅優惠來說的話那其實他享受到的這個機會其實是微乎其微"},{"start":7070.293,"end":7095.072,"text":"那未來如果真的有這樣子的一個考量來說的話那我自己的建議是首購組的定義是必須要非常明確而且比較嚴格一點那到底是我們想像中的你真的都沒有買房子無房無貸還是我們在央行的信用管制或我們業界認為那種首購組我雖然有房子但是我沒有任何的貸款來說也叫做首購這個可能要明確的定義那另外"},{"start":7095.672,"end":7112.263,"text":"我雖然沒有自由住宅但是如果可能有一些土地有一些工廠有一些其他的非自由住宅來說的話是不是要排除這個也要略為考量其他的建議來說的話第二個討論提綱來說的話是不是要調整合理的上限其實就是18萬夠不夠"},{"start":7113.524,"end":7138.271,"text":"那我個人認為四口之家跟單身住在台北住在屏東確實是有不同的一個考量那我個人的建議是可以按18萬或12萬當成一個基礎然後再按照未成年整理數再加上六度或新竹縣市加成計算但是不超過某一個金額的上限為限也許是24萬一個月補助2萬或是說我們按照儲蓄特別扣除27萬為限當成一個標準"},{"start":7140.211,"end":7152.925,"text":"那其他建議來說的話成了我剛剛所說的其實我對於租稅政策的優惠其實比較保留但是支出上面來說我覺得它對象非常明確而且民眾比較有感那內政部提出了這樣的租金補貼來說我覺得"},{"start":7155.447,"end":7180.954,"text":"是非常這個蠻不錯的這樣子的一個政策那希望能夠持續不過呢在目前的這樣對於房東上面的優惠或處罰來說的話只限於目前房客具有申報租屋補貼的房東我們才可以去做這樣管理或這樣的優惠但是相對於房客的租金的一些租稅的優惠房東收入呢可不可以如實繳稅我個人認為是更加的重要"},{"start":7181.774,"end":7191.738,"text":"當然業界或學界都有提出實價登錄目前實價登錄來說買賣房子是有的租房子如果透過仲介業才要實價登錄雖然內政部長在上個月有針對這個議題發表這些看法不過我還是希望內政部跟相關的單位能夠長期漸進的考量租屋市場上面還是能夠全面的實價登錄如果"},{"start":7210.726,"end":7223.497,"text":"近期有困難來說至少在一定金額以上的租金的這樣子的租賃的一個案件來說可以強制的要求實價登錄我覺得是一個可行而且是漸進的方法那以上針對今天的討論題剛剛發表個人的請見 謝謝"},{"start":7230.622,"end":7256.693,"text":"羅教授我們請財政部跟內政部相關的長官還有法務部發言之前我想提幾個東西我們希望除了你們報告之外也能夠針對我提出來的幾個問題看能不能也來跟我們回答一下如果不能回答 你看做什麼樣的說明第一個 今天討論的是"},{"start":7258.333,"end":7282.114,"text":"這個等於是個人戶他的租金以及首購他的支出要不要放在列舉購出額列舉購出額能不能提高目前題目是這樣子但是剛才有一位這個律師吧 由律師提到的對中小企業這一部分大家幾乎很少琢磨我們能不能夠等一下財政部"},{"start":7283.115,"end":7308.479,"text":"跟我們來提一下確實剛才也有其他的專家提到了因為這個房東就突然的漲今年這個比如說一年十萬明年一年十五萬後年一年二十萬這種情況之下讓很多經營還不錯的中小企業這個中小企業或者是微小企業他可能只有顧五個人"},{"start":7309.159,"end":7334.127,"text":"那被迫的可能要歇業那這一部分我們財政部沒有想過針對這個中小企業的部分它的租金租賃的一個情況租的情況租屋的情況這是第一個我要提出來的就是針對中小企業這一部分第一個我要提出來的就是"},{"start":7336.035,"end":7355.861,"text":"歐洲有些國家我們目前是這樣做就是我們租金的調漲是有參考CPI的那有些歐洲的國家它是比較嚴格的就是你是掌CPI除非你證明說過去一年"},{"start":7357.466,"end":7378.26,"text":"我的房子等於大修特修等於新的房子一樣等於這個建築物就不是原來建築物的造價或者我的造價大幅的因為我的這個去加工啦或者我去修繕啦我大幅提升我的成本要提出證明要提出要經過政府相關部門的"},{"start":7379.261,"end":7392.852,"text":"這個省額然後它的造價不一樣才能夠額外再漲換句話說是除了CPI之外它要漲的理由要有政府來"},{"start":7394.833,"end":7409.285,"text":"某種程度來看當然有些人會認為說這個商業的這個租貸啊這個東西政府可能不宜去管太多可是事實上歐洲他們就有在管這部分因為"},{"start":7410.146,"end":7432.912,"text":"我講的是針對中小企業中小企業的經營者比較沒有他的 bargaining power大企業政壇我們就不管了完全是市場機制我們不去管它是第二點我要提出來的那第三點我們今天討論為什麼今天排這個題目因為最近最熱門的題目就是除了川普的關稅之外還是川普的關稅川普的關稅之外"},{"start":7436.033,"end":7445.703,"text":"那你又就發現說只要川普講一句話對全球金融市場特別股票市場的影響多大你看前天講的說哎呀我們對巴陸"},{"start":7447.103,"end":7470.394,"text":"就這兩天講的吧 大陸可能要他不需要課到一百五十四一百四十五要降到五十八六十八馬上昨天股市暴漲結果今天講說 都不是他說這個稍後 他說以後再說那以後可能不是今年 是明年結果今天又好像又退回去了就沒有那麼順所以今天的"},{"start":7471.704,"end":7485.731,"text":"判的扣除也就是在關稅的影響底下而且這個影響可能還會漫長一段時間昨天 老東部長在立法院就提到了這個可能會有十萬人失業"},{"start":7487.292,"end":7512.666,"text":"會有六成以上的人會擔心五星價這個對債影響到一般的市井小民所以我們在野黨提出來的普發一萬塊的現金其實是很有必要的這個請財政部的理事長再跟總部長再提一下這個現在講八十億是這一部分他們在野黨提這個普發一萬塊啊在現在這個時空"},{"start":7516.388,"end":7522.155,"text":"因為川普的關稅不會這麼早落幕但是落幕也不可能婚約以前"},{"start":7523.305,"end":7551.797,"text":"他不會說32%沒有了 通常變零不會他最少起課點10%10%影響也是蠻大的這個對工廠特別是薄力的工廠影響是很大很大的所以對人民來講的話這個物價也漲了收入也少了工作機會可能無形價這時候1萬塊的補貼其實是相當的有必要等一下有機會也再給我們"},{"start":7552.557,"end":7571.143,"text":"來回答一下第四點那就是剛才這個特別是黃先生委員代表民眾黨團提出來的說這個租屋化能不能讓租屋市場透明化之所以不願意透明化就是他租那房子以後賣"},{"start":7572.95,"end":7600.211,"text":"如果讓財政部知道他有租房子他就在賣的時候沒有實價實際上的一個叫什麼我們叫什麼叫做實價不是實價登錄叫做不是不是叫做實價交易叫什麼對還有一個他講的是我們交易市場提的那個是"},{"start":7603.291,"end":7611.833,"text":"在最後交易的時候你們就是按照他的實價的交易實價課稅那一部分來講他就沒辦法享受這些他提的概念"},{"start":7630.018,"end":7657.274,"text":"不能用自助的這部分你們等一下也可以回答一下最後一點有哪位委員提到還是專家提到了有沒有可能分離課稅分離課稅這一塊重新是不同的概念"},{"start":7659.395,"end":7680.081,"text":"這個我想你們財政部準備了一些資料說除了準備資料之外針對我剛才提的那幾大概五點吧能不能給我們一併的說明好不好如果今天沒辦法說明那你也適度說明那我時候再不一定適度給我們好不好我們現在請財政部的理事長先回應一下"},{"start":7688.356,"end":7709.471,"text":"好 謝謝主席 還有就是今天與會的各位女士先生 大家早安我想今天貴文會有召開這個主題 那這個修法的公聽會呢我們本部呈要列席 我們就討論提綱因為一的部分可能是比較涉及本部的業務 這個部分我們先說明如下"},{"start":7710.111,"end":7734.029,"text":"那首先就是我們現行的扣除綜合所得稅的這個課徵呢它是基於一個量能課稅的原則所以所得稅法第17條的免稅以及相關的扣除項目的規定呢是基於納稅一人基本生活的支出重要生活支出以及符合特定目的的支出項目來規定可以從綜合所得的總額中來減除那用它的餘額來衡量這個納稅人的納稅能力"},{"start":7736.45,"end":7751.14,"text":"並且適用目前我們的累計稅率那扣除了項目的範圍還有減除的限額等等已經考量了這個財政的需要還有就是租稅公平以及政府特定的政策的目的還有就是基增減變這些相關的因素來作為訂定的基礎"},{"start":7754.782,"end":7769.632,"text":"第二個就是在列舉扣除項目的訂定當時訂定的目的主要是在減除影響納稅能力的重要生活支出需要舉證實際支出金額來列舉扣除那如果支出金額比較微小或者是舉證困難的話他可以選擇標準扣除"},{"start":7772.814,"end":7797.179,"text":"那我們特別扣除額呢本來是跟所得連結在計算我們真實的所得例如薪資所得特別扣除額或者是鼓勵儲蓄如致利息所得減除的儲蓄投資特別扣除額那後來隨著這個教育人口社會福利以及落實居住正義等等特定的政策目的呢不論在立法委員或在行政部門呢"},{"start":7798.219,"end":7812.029,"text":"就陸續增訂了教育學費特別扣除幼兒學錢特別扣除身心障礙及長期照顧等等特別扣除等等那在113年度的時候呢為了照顧我們弱勢無無的族群"},{"start":7813.01,"end":7837.066,"text":"租屋的需求落實居住正義的政策目的所以在113年的1月3日我們也修正公布了所得稅法藉由委員的提案我們將房屋租金支出改為特別扣除額並且大幅提高了扣除額的額度的上限到新台幣18萬元並且增訂了排付的規定希望能夠減輕我們租屋族的負擔"},{"start":7839.127,"end":7867.122,"text":"現行政府對於租屋族這類的族群其實我們除了在租稅上面給予相關的扣除之外也直接提供相關的補貼包含利息的補貼還有租金的補貼來協助我們這些租屋族減輕他的負擔按照這個劣政部的租金補貼以房客每月領取的補貼金額台北市第一級為例最高可以達到八千元"},{"start":7867.702,"end":7877.634,"text":"那全年補貼的金額加計房屋租金支出特別扣除的上限的金額等同成住人每年最高可以享有政府直接的租金補貼還有間接的租稅補貼總共達27.6萬元"},{"start":7884.942,"end":7901.06,"text":"那已經是符合我們估計應該是可以符合租屋族的基本需求那考量本項的規定是在今年五月申報的時候會第一次申報所以我們建議看看今年申報的情況實施的情況再來評估它的成效"},{"start":7901.801,"end":7928.052,"text":"那對於購物借款利息呢目前我們的規定是在76年12月30日修正公佈那當時也是為了鼓勵一般的國民來購置自用的住宅減輕自住者的利息負擔所以有訂定納稅用人購買自用住宅向金融機構借款的利息呢可以在規定的限額內來減除那另外呢在88年2月9號的時候呢將這個扣除的限額提高到30萬元"},{"start":7929.412,"end":7954.634,"text":"那以113年度中央銀行五大銀行他的這個新承作購物貸款的利率2.171%來計算那尤其是新清安貸款我們補貼後的利率只有1.775%如果用2.171來換算的話利息支出30萬元的貸款本金大概是約1400萬元左右那對一般的首購族來講呢"},{"start":7956.275,"end":7983.64,"text":"已經足之適用而且這個支出的金額並繼其餘的列舉扣除項目的金額以後也可以跟標準扣除來做一個比較來擇優適用已經可以有效減輕中低所得者的租稅負擔再者無購屋能力的民眾租屋自住與有購屋能力而且能夠取得貸款的民眾購屋自住來相比前者的經濟能力相對比較弱勢"},{"start":7984.72,"end":8005.539,"text":"所以我們修法將租金支出改列特別扣除那維持讓這個購屋借款利息放在列舉扣除基本上也是在做一個就是購屋能力還有就是它的這個經濟情況的做一個相對的比較那如果能夠維持現行的"},{"start":8006.857,"end":8015.736,"text":"稅法的規定的話已經可以落實照顧無屋主的基本居住需求的政策議題而且兼顧量能課稅的原則"},{"start":8016.69,"end":8029.72,"text":"那近年來我們其實一直在積極的推動稅制改革那我們本部依照我們本部財政中心的統計呢111年度全國申報戶列報總扣除額佔全國綜合所得總額的比例已經高達62%那全部的課稅所得當中呢僅剩下38%的所得要負擔所得稅"},{"start":8039.967,"end":8066.504,"text":"那再從我們中所稅加戶納稅的情形來分析有293萬戶的申報戶是不需要繳稅的那236萬的申報戶他是適用我們的最低稅率5%的稅率所以將近有80%的申報戶是免稅或者適用最低的稅率那顯示經過歷年所得稅制的優化已經有效減輕我們中低所得者的租稅負擔"},{"start":8068.165,"end":8093.402,"text":"最後為了落實居住正義減輕租以及首購族的負擔我們政府除了我們財政部在租稅上面提供租稅的補貼之外其實像內政部也提供了像租金的補貼鑒於這個中所稅各項扣除而其實一直都是外界關注的焦點社會各界也常常有提高相關免稅而扣除金額"},{"start":8094.142,"end":8121.443,"text":"或增列扣除項目或者是擴大適用範圍的建議那麼覺得為了維護這個財政穩健我們會綜合考量整個財政收入還有租稅公平及稅政簡化這些原則來配合政府的施政優先順序跟各部會及跨部會的合作通盤審慎評估它的必要性可行性及有效性那今天公聽會也非常開心能夠聆聽各個專家學者的"},{"start":8123.284,"end":8143.443,"text":"指教跟建議那未來也可以列入我們修法的參考那以上是我們財政部初步的回應 建請指教那接下來我要做一些補充的回應在回應委員的剛才提出來的這些問題之前可能我先回應一下就是今天也有我們專家學者提到一些"},{"start":8144.324,"end":8155.631,"text":"建議就是包含第一個就是租金希望租金支出扣除來設計一個加強宣導加強宣導這部分那加強宣導這部分我在這邊補充說明我們已經在我們財政部負稅署的網站上面"},{"start":8161.315,"end":8180.375,"text":"設了一個專區設了一個今年租金支出扣除的一個專區那這上面也連結了我們各地區國稅局的服務專線如果說納稅業務人他在申報這個租金支出的時候有相關的疑義或者是說他想要申訴就像剛才講的"},{"start":8181.856,"end":8206.373,"text":"房東他要這個申訴房東不讓他申報的話這個部分都可以向我們國稅局來提出說明那剛才也有相關的專家建議說是不是可以他來提出申訴的我們就列為去了解以後也許列為將來我們加強查核的對象我想這個部分我們也可以請我們各地去國稅局把它入案作為未來查核的這個重點"},{"start":8207.213,"end":8223.413,"text":"那另外呢也有提到就是說建議我們那個在引導這個空屋來提高出租使用的效率我想這個部分我也補充說明一下就是今年其實包含就是內政部主導的住宅法裡面其實它已經對於這個"},{"start":8224.694,"end":8247.816,"text":"公益出租人或者是說我們的房屋提供給這個包租代管業者他其實有很多房屋租金收入免稅的優惠另外也提高了這個租金支出必要費用的扣除額扣除比例費用率的標準同時我們也提出了這個房屋稅地價稅的相關優惠那此外我們今年5月"},{"start":8248.914,"end":8275.285,"text":"也就是新制的房屋稅2.0差別稅率2.0這個制度我們在這個房屋稅的稅率上面呢對於這個如果是房東願意把他的房屋空屋提供出租使用的話他也可以適用比較低的稅率包含像一般我們的稅率是2到4.8%但是如果說房東願意把他的房屋空屋提供出租使用的話"},{"start":8275.845,"end":8301.674,"text":"它的房屋的稅率可以只有1.5%到2.4%這個其實這個制度呢據我們所了解很多現在的空屋已經慢慢釋出來這個很多的我們的房東都願意變成公益出租人也增加了很多的公益出租人我想這應該是我們今年這個房屋稅的稅制可以引導一些空屋作為出租使用這個將來我們也會陸續來觀察它的效果"},{"start":8304.395,"end":8323.69,"text":"那第三個就是有關於這個租屋市場透明化的問題我想這個部分其實財政部也一直很希望租屋市場能夠透明化我們並不反對那但是當然這個涉及到就是整個跟內政部一起共同討論的問題那我們也非常希望能夠租屋市場能夠跟這個售屋市場一樣"},{"start":8330.455,"end":8354.77,"text":"漸漸的有實價登錄的制度那當然這個部分我們會跟內政部一起來共同努力那至於委員的剛才詮詢的幾件問題第一個就是關於這個中小企業的租金的部分我想這個部分因為中小企業畢竟它是公司組織如果今天它因為房東要漲它的租金它其實是可以何時減除的"},{"start":8355.931,"end":8376.98,"text":"因為中小企業它只要實際上有租金的支出它在它所得稅申報的時候本來就都可以核實減除那今天之所以它沒有辦法承受這個租金而至於可能會有歇業的問題這可能不是在我們租稅制度上面也不是在租稅稅付上面可以額外再給它相關的優惠的問題"},{"start":8378.681,"end":8403.469,"text":"那而且如果他真的因為租金漲幅受到影響讓他的收入減少的話其實他的稅負也會相對的減輕那第二個就是剛剛提到這個歐洲法律這個部分我想這個部分應該是等一下內政部應該來回應這個比較不是我們財政部的主管業務那剛才我也有提到就是租用市場透明化會不會影響這個"},{"start":8407.02,"end":8425.72,"text":"這個出租人他為什麼不願意很合時的讓大家知道他有出租這件事情黃委員覺得會影響到他的那個未來出售房屋的優惠當然因為我們現在對於這個出售房屋給予的一些"},{"start":8427.262,"end":8454.992,"text":"不管是土地增值稅的優惠或者是說房地合一2.0給予一些自住上面的優惠扣除都是鼓勵就是房屋自住使用那對於你房屋出租使用這件事情它並不是我們現在在出售的時候評估就是說應該給你額外的優惠的一個條件當然如果說房東要考慮他的房屋的運用的話其實他因為我們現在的條件在那個"},{"start":8455.992,"end":8480.199,"text":"土地徵稅這個使用上其實是非常寬鬆的只要他在出售前的一年他不再出租然後回到自住的狀況他就可以適用到土徵稅的優惠自住的優惠那但是當然房地合約2.0因為我們綁的條件是非常嚴格的如果你要適用這個自住的優惠的話我們是說要6年持續自住我想這個是要讓這個房東自己來評估他要做"},{"start":8484.72,"end":8512.152,"text":"房屋做自住使用或者出租使用當然稅的優惠在他出售那個階段他可不可以享受相關的優惠其實是應該讓這個房東自己來衡量的那第五個就是委員剛剛有提到說房東的所得可不可以分離課稅這件事情我覺得當然這個已經有很多委員有提供相關的意見但是分離課稅這件事情基本上因為我們現在的所得都是綜合所得課稅"},{"start":8513.092,"end":8530.903,"text":"分離總額課稅它是可以扣除它的相關的免稅額扣除還有相關的這個相關的費用或者是說我們現行法律上規定可以扣除的項目以後它是適用不同的稅率可以從零稅率完全不用繳稅或者是它適用5%到40%的稅率那但是如果說我們今天採用分離課稅"},{"start":8535.566,"end":8559.601,"text":"分離課稅的效果不管是任何所得分離課稅它都是就是單一的稅率單一的稅率就是你即使綜合所得本來不用繳稅的你今天的房東這筆租金所得就變成要按照我們分離課稅的稅率來課稅那這個對這些房東的所得其實不一定會有這個納稅的情形的這些房東反而不利"},{"start":8561.082,"end":8587.795,"text":"那反而是對誰有利呢?是對那些高所得者也許是適用二十稅率、三十稅率或四十稅率的人他反而享受了這個租稅的優惠所以這其實分離空缺並不是一件非常公平的所得稅制所以這點我們一直覺得應該要審慎的評估那最後我也提到這個因為川普關稅效應對普法現金的立場我想上次我也舉辦工地會我們財政部已經有"},{"start":8589.336,"end":8610.174,"text":"表達我們的立場那當然這個部分還是要看行政院的規劃啦那以上報告 謝謝不知道委員還有沒有要指教的地方就是普發現金不要發就對了嘛不是我沒有這樣講我說這要尊重行政院的規劃是不是就是我做球給你你就不要接啊因為今天講的是17條啦是"},{"start":8614.838,"end":8640.272,"text":"你我都很清楚 大家都很清楚十七條不容易修啦很不容易修啦 因為裡面太多了蔡銘一堆十七條十七條 裡面根本就修不了所以我才說 婦女課稅有沒有一些東西拿出來專門修一個婦女課稅這個居住正義是很有正當性的啦不是沒有的啊你擔心那個高所得的高所得可以抬主啊"},{"start":8642.313,"end":8659.715,"text":"高所得可以排除啊 如果你20萬以上就不可以用啊我想這就不是那些房東開心的事情因為他們會主張分離課稅就是這些比較有高所得的人低所得絕對不會主張分離課稅的"},{"start":8661.272,"end":8682.406,"text":"不然怎麼衝出來我們另外再修一個法不要十七條啊不然這個修不到啊這個今天黨的鐵拉永遠修不到嘛大家都知道十七條因為他一缸子嘛一缸子十七條對不對風水組的宋組長看到十七條他晚上都睡不著覺啊這個整個大罵罵而已啊罵立委為什麼提這麼多這樣而已啊"},{"start":8684.367,"end":8685.348,"text":"所以你同意民眾黨的提高喔?"},{"start":8711.099,"end":8735.439,"text":"沒有 其實我們沒有同意提高我們是說你提議是提同意啊就跟人家說我們在那裏去修啊先修來再修啊是這一點嗎沒有 因為我們算48萬嘛剛才有講過加上他提高到25萬不是對 但是我們說加上那個內政部的租金補貼其實他們已經每個月就已經明年大概一年大概就27萬了所以已經高於民眾黨委員的提案25萬了"},{"start":8736.42,"end":8754.332,"text":"沒有辦法加上申訴為何不簡單委員這個大家審慎評估啦而且我們希望就是看看今年申報的結果因為今年真的是第一年所以今天不是因為比較弱弱勢者在講話的啦是啊 其實都是弱勢者啦這些享受利益的都是弱勢者 真的"},{"start":8755.713,"end":8782.53,"text":"所以我們現在就是趕快多宣導 讓這些有租金的人趕快來這個處長啊 你是管政院專家喔你如果當部長的話 我不會當部長你現在講得這麼清楚 我就把17條裡面你們可能可以修的 我就拿出來修我就修17條裡面 拿出來幾條可以修的對 也跟個人報告 因為我也知道不要修17條啦"},{"start":8784.391,"end":8809.476,"text":"因為委員17條的提案實在太多了所以就是要看如果真的需要修正的時候就像去年一樣大家的焦點在哪裡覺得可以提出來修正真的是福國利民的才可以拿出來討論可是立委們對17條是高度興趣的"},{"start":8811.615,"end":8826.325,"text":"我知道對你來講是高度的難免可是我們是很怕開花開得太大不會啦不會啦我們不會開花啦好 謝謝下一個那位請內政部長官問一下"},{"start":8839.006,"end":8862.277,"text":"主席還有各位與會的專家學者大家早安那內政部僅就今天公聽會的議題進行做一個簡要的一個說明首先是否應該協助這些無科組或是說這個租屋組將房屋租金或是首購組的房貸利息列為特別扣除我的部分這一塊因為是屬於財政部的一個業務權責這個本部競表尊重"},{"start":8866.024,"end":8880.492,"text":"那另外針對這個是否有效規範房屋租金訂定合理條幅的部分以兼顧租賃雙方的權益的部分那目前在現行法規已有規範在租賃期間是不得調整這個租金的"},{"start":8881.112,"end":8901.715,"text":"在這個住宅租賃定型化契約應記載事項第四點已經有明定出租人於租賃期間不得藉任何理由要求調漲租金房東如果有違反上開情形的話可以依據消費者保護法第17條及第56條之一的規定房客可以予以拒絕"},{"start":8902.836,"end":8924.285,"text":"房東的一個要求並向主管機關提出申訴或是檢舉如今主管機關令其限期改正而藉其不改正者最高可以處以新台幣五萬元以上五十萬元以下的罰款並得按次處罰那此外本部也藉由多元的一個租屋政策穩定租金的一個漲幅減輕租屋的負擔"},{"start":8925.586,"end":8942.86,"text":"租屋市場的租金變動最主要是受到市場供需、房屋條件及整體房價變動等因素綜合影響有關於租約的一個租金金額,是由租賃雙方基於契約自由原則共同約定如果貿然修法"},{"start":8944.056,"end":8963.567,"text":"把這個房屋租金調整的機制納入法規裡面恐怕會影響到房東出租房屋的意願而導致出租的供給量來減少,影響市場的安定與秩序所以這個可能也會對房客來講造成不利的影響所以這塊應該要更為審慎的嚴謹評估"},{"start":8966.969,"end":8992.051,"text":"那為了引導房東釋出閒置住宅增加租屋供給穩定市場租金的一個變動本部也在106年完成這個租賃條例的一個立法建立了租賃住宅專業的服務制度藉由包租代管協助房東出租房屋及管理而且藉由這樣的一個機制也可以釋出一些優惠給願意來參加的一個房東他可以"},{"start":8993.993,"end":9013.146,"text":"還有一些租金補貼、房屋修繕等等的優惠藉由這樣的方式來照顧不同族群居住需求及權益提供民眾多元住居的一個選擇,減輕國人居住的負擔截至在114年的3月底,直接興辦社會住宅,已達成12萬餘戶"},{"start":9015.327,"end":9038.621,"text":"包租代管社會住宅有效契約則是8.8萬餘戶那全國的社會住宅也達成20萬8千餘戶的一個目標租金補貼已核定超過68萬戶對於國人的居住協助實際成效中尚本部將持續關注租賃市場概況及聆聽租屋族群的一個需求"},{"start":9039.241,"end":9053.835,"text":"配合推動健全租賃市場的環境提升租屋安全與服務品質等工作並與財政部及相關機關保持溝通協調以建構更合理透明穩定之租屋環境以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":9057.793,"end":9075.345,"text":"謝謝 這個我請教內政部啊 這個長官啊 這個你們那個土地發97條你知道嗎是那97條啊 就是說這個如果房東亂漲租金啊 你們縣市政府可以要求他請啊這個幾乎都沒有人用到 縣市政府都沒有人用到97條"},{"start":9076.586,"end":9105.726,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上過去在法院有一些判例的確是有在做使用不過這邊也要再做一個回應因為土地法97條是當時在民國36年土地法訂定的時候那個時空環境背景下所訂定的當時是用申報地價的年息10%所以這個金額是非常的低那它在使用上面當時為什麼在租賃條例要以排除最主要在土地法97條它只有限定在"},{"start":9106.446,"end":9129.534,"text":"城市地方的房屋也就是說非都市土地的部分反而不可以適用所以在適用上面會有它的一個不一致之處所以當時我們在租賃條例的第二條裡面就把它明文排除希望把它回歸到一般正常市場由雙方去協調這個租金的一個方式來辦理好 謝謝喔 謝謝這個 這個"},{"start":9134.625,"end":9149.465,"text":"我還是回到剛才這個理事長所提到的 那你請就位提到那個說芬妮克斯威德高屬的有利益啊 我想不見得啦這個 如果你芬妮克斯威德稅率反正是二十三十 那又利益到哪裡呢而且主要是 主要是要讓它透明化"},{"start":9151.087,"end":9175.455,"text":"不見陽光嘛 不見陽光你那個婚禮的話他就可以見陽光了這邊他占一點便宜那邊他就出來了 胡出來了我是呼籲民眾黨團所提的東西就是讓租屋市場透明化嘛這個現在就是大家都不願意透明嘛他租了你就不願意講啊因為以後就實價 實價交易啊我們叫什麼 特別實價交易 對吧"},{"start":9181.813,"end":9197.045,"text":"還是不申報他跟你實際他都已經封你課所以你們都知道了你們不是不申報你們不知道我們現在就是透過保護隊那邊的特別局去找他"},{"start":9213.891,"end":9220.604,"text":"所以那張沒有用的 剛才有點替代那個沒有用那是專員 哪位教授提到的 哪位教授提到的"},{"start":9223.899,"end":9226.321,"text":"因為一般來講你如果分離課稅率不低的話其實跟你們來講說也不見得說會讓那個高屬多者有什麼好處啊什麼之類的"},{"start":9249.482,"end":9265.233,"text":"應該還是因為我們現在跟房東查核這麼多年我們也發現有很多的房東其實不願意就是不願意一定要被我們查到他才會他可能是你們去不願意看你們這個要跟人家要錢這樣子不願意了是不是"},{"start":9268.255,"end":9280.408,"text":"就是因為它 他們就不會自動來申報啦就要透過我們今天這關想辦法查到好 最後一個單位請那個法務部的提一下法務部 請"},{"start":9291.917,"end":9307.005,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生學者專家大家午安今天貴人會召開的公聽會本部應邀列席致表榮幸就今天所列的討論提綱提供意見如下有關提綱一"},{"start":9308.786,"end":9326.032,"text":"將房屋住金或是首購組的房貸利息支出列為特別扣除額或是提高扣除額的部分因為它涉及國家財政收入的整體規劃住稅公平性以及量能科稅原則本部尊重稅務主管機關的政策判斷以及大院審議的結果"},{"start":9327.672,"end":9353.306,"text":"提綱二有關是否規範房屋租金訂立合理條幅以兼顧租賃雙方權益的部分立法目的應該是要追求居住正義兼顧成租雙方的利益良善不過因為這個議題比較複雜牽涉到出租人的財產權的限制以及訂約雙方的契約自由到底具體的規範內容怎麼形成用什麼手段來達成目的"},{"start":9354.447,"end":9375.519,"text":"應該遵守憲法比例原則以及22條契約自由15條財產權以及第7條平等權的保障等等的規定在憲法的框架秩序裡面的立法自由形成空間我們是尊重專法主管機關的政策判斷及大院的審議結果那如果有具體的法條內容出來我們本部會再另行提供法治意見"},{"start":9376.46,"end":9404.308,"text":"那最後就大院委員黃珊珊等四人提案的所得稅法17條條文修正草案的部分一樣是牽涉到財政收入整體規劃租稅公平及量能課稅我們仍然是尊重稅務主管機關的政策判斷及大院審議結果不過如果要修正一條的話我們是建議可能要一併審酌是不是要修正有關事情日期的相關規定那以上意見敬請各位委員學者專家及先進參考謝謝"},{"start":9408.476,"end":9415.777,"text":"好 謝謝法務部的這個副市長那麼請教各位學者專家有沒有不同的沒有的話 這個我做一下的結論 再做一下結論那麼依據立法院職權刑事法第58條的規定委員會應該在公定會終結10天內依出席者所提供的政法意見提出公定會報告送交本院"},{"start":9438.121,"end":9460.181,"text":"全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今日與會者所有寶貴的發言意見作為未來修法之參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員及今日初列席提供建議的貴賓參閱事實上我們也希望能夠提供電視檔給所有的委員"},{"start":9462.642,"end":9478.172,"text":"另外 如果各位觀眾朋友還有其他的書面意見或相關資料也請盡速提供給我們將並列本次的國務委員會報告再次感謝各位學術專家及政府機關代表的出席謝謝大家 我們散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}