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時間到了 那我們現在開始進行協商會議協商進行前 我們先介紹到常委員羅志強委員張琦楷委員陳永康委員陳金輝委員陳培余委員郭育群委員林月琴委員"},{"start":1952.006,"end":1971.096,"text":"那今日協商委員吳宗憲等52人彌具公投提案主文為您是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不須自決之政策請公決案本案於114年3月11日15日本院第11屆第三會期第六次會議"},{"start":1972.316,"end":1991.522,"text":"經提案人說明提案子去大體討論後決議進覆二讀交付黨團協商並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商現在進行協商請出席的三個黨團的代表表示意見各黨團輪流發言那每位委員發言時間為五分鐘先請提案委員所屬政黨國民黨團發言"},{"start":1995.643,"end":2015.992,"text":"好 羅委員好 實際上這個關於死刑一字決的公投 已經兩個黨 我們在各個場合 幾個黨都有很多的討論所以這邊我很簡短的說那判處死刑 因否一字決已經是重大形式的政策那"},{"start":2017.492,"end":2044.534,"text":"全民對於所謂的實質廢死或是廢除死刑都有高度疑慮這在歷次民調當中都有顯現所以我們認為如此重大的一個人民的一個關心的行事政策應該交付公決所以提出這個公投案希望得到大家的支持 以上好 謝謝羅委員那接下來看是民進黨還是民眾黨要"},{"start":2047.588,"end":2073.857,"text":"大家那麼客氣好 謝謝民進黨的禮遇我先簡短的發言事實上憲法法庭做了這個實質廢死之後民意沸騰大家可以看到那個民調一面倒的表示嚴正的抗議之前在這個憲法法庭做出決定之前大概你在做民調的時候大概就已經有八成反對這個廢死了那經過這個憲法法庭那一次的之後"},{"start":2074.477,"end":2087.471,"text":"大概高達九成的民眾都是表示反對的而且認為這個憲法法庭變成是一個實質廢死它裡面一個最重要的原因就是它提到說死刑判決要經過何義廷一致決"},{"start":2089.008,"end":2112.138,"text":"那從一審、二審到三審,有十幾位法官,你看全部都是贊成的,難度是非常高,所以已經等於是實質的廢死了。那台灣民眾黨基於一方面要尊重台灣多數的民意,然後第二個也很重要的,全世界這個潮流啊,你一看廢死的國家非常非常的少,那你再回到國內來看,"},{"start":2113.462,"end":2139.822,"text":"我跟吳宗憲吳委員有特別辦的這個公聽會我們邀了這個一些受害者家屬來辦的這個公聽會然後講聽了真的是心疼就是非常的他們心裡一方面經過好幾年這個煎熬那一方面他們看到憲法法庭做了這個實質廢止之後啊他們都極度的心裡極度的不平那目前我們台灣啊還有36位死刑犯是沒有執行的"},{"start":2141.594,"end":2145.81,"text":"這個問題都非常非常的嚴重所以台灣民眾黨也贊同說我們針對"},{"start":2147.41,"end":2175.721,"text":"憲法法庭這個做了這個實質的廢死而且要求這個何義廷要一致解這個事情我們讓全民來公投做一個有補救的一個機會當然我們也要鄭重的一個呼籲啦事實上我知道民進黨長久以來有推動這個廢死從蔡英文上任後沒多久他們就推動這個那時候我們在提議的就是說它是一個時代的進程你說像歐盟某些國家它要推動這個廢死那歐盟它的制度裡面就有例如說可能有終身監禁"},{"start":2176.621,"end":2201.007,"text":"可是我們在第一個還沒達到社會的共識之前第二個也沒有終身監禁這個修法之前貿然做了一個實質廢死的這個憲法法庭這個裁定之後啊 宣判之後感覺上人民是覺得問題是非常多的所以我希望透過公投這個這次啊表達我們充分的這個名利那更期待公投之後我們可以適度的把這個結把它解開"},{"start":2201.687,"end":2227.073,"text":"一方面讓目前還有很多受害者家屬心裡面的不平可以化解那一方面也讓社會上很多的擔憂得以不要再繼續下去我們共同來努力期待這個共同案可以順利的趕快進行而且讓全民來做一個公決 謝謝好 謝謝我們補充介紹王宏威委員 陳玉珍委員接下來我們是請民進黨團發言"},{"start":2229.776,"end":2249.075,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我說明一下剛剛為什麼要禮讓因為你們是坐在一起的你們是共同提出這個違法公投提案的那為什麼是違法公投提案呢因為事實上在3月25號會議時間結束之後國民黨跟民眾黨才衝進院會議場做出這個提案跟表決所以我想我們還是要針對這件事情提出抗議"},{"start":2249.816,"end":2265.827,"text":"那接下來我們要回到你們的公投提案內容我必須要說這一次這個提案呢是用反廢死來包裝所謂的反死刑一致決其實我們認為是在公開欺騙社會大眾畢竟台灣到目前為止沒有任何一刻是實質廢除過死刑"},{"start":2267.668,"end":2283.683,"text":"那如果我們今天要處理這個提案前提就是死刑要存在也就是死刑一字決的前提是死刑要存在事實上法務部在上個禮拜還有修正了所謂的執行死刑規則這個規則出爐之後呢當然大家都有各自的意見"},{"start":2284.284,"end":2302.729,"text":"但是如果台灣已經廢死那又何必再修正這個規則乾脆直接廢掉就好因此我要說國民黨這個反廢死的公投實質上是想要利用民眾對於反廢死的高支持度拉高現在處於低谷的民意甚至面對所謂大罷免的風潮"},{"start":2303.149,"end":2328.949,"text":"但是問題是在於我們立法院各位立法委員作為最高的立法機關我們是立法委員發起公投案本身就應該有所節制甚至我們要做的事情是透過修法來處理你們所在意的議題發起公投案的內容也不應該有誤導民眾的嫌疑那我剛剛已經說我認為這是一個公開詐欺詐騙的提案那接下來法律未接衝突的問題"},{"start":2329.91,"end":2345.992,"text":"國民黨提出反廢死的公投其實就是劍指憲法法庭113年度憲判的判決見解那判決見解我相信大家都清楚了我就不再說那這一段文字它是放在憲法判決的主文當中等同於是憲法判決的核心見解"},{"start":2346.753,"end":2368.414,"text":"效力应该等同于宪法未接但是公投法的公投案是基于宪法赋予人民创制赋爵的权利可是透过这些权利得到的公投结果的效力是属于法律未接因此如果公投案的题目内容直接抵触了宪法法庭的判决最终很有可能变成一场无效的公投"},{"start":2369.194,"end":2385.818,"text":"還有到底這件事情是不是重大的政策在公投法裡面提到人民全國性的公民投票適用的範圍其中有一項叫做重大政策的創制或者是覆決如果這件事情算是重大政策也就是剛剛張啟凱委員說的民意沸騰那我認為比較不會有不同的意見"},{"start":2389.179,"end":2404.035,"text":"可是問題在於這一次是法院在判決被告死刑時要不要一致通過這個其實已經涉及到法院如何做成判決基本上很難認定這叫做重大政策所以也就可以看出來為什麼國民黨用這個方法來包裝所謂的反廢死"},{"start":2406.557,"end":2428.457,"text":"所以拋開重大政策這件事情不講 光是創制跟覆決這個部分也有問題畢竟憲法法庭所揭示的事情是 現行法規沒有要求法院做成死刑判決時要一致決所以違反憲法保障生命權的意義 原則上也不能通過所謂創制這件事情來創造一個不需一致決的制度 因為這就是現狀"},{"start":2429.378,"end":2448.002,"text":"也不是透過複決來處理因為複決通常針對的是現在有的制度有所不滿我們給予人民這個空間去做這個事情所以有以上的認數就是希望我希望我們今天真的有結果不要又送院會搞不好我們真的可以有默契剛剛張綺凱委員也說了我真的也有這個期待以上謝謝主席"},{"start":2450.534,"end":2459.191,"text":"好 謝謝我們再補充介紹葛盧軍委員 林倩琦委員那請問各位委員是否還有要補充說明好 王委員"},{"start":2460.489,"end":2486.521,"text":"好謝謝主席做簡短的說明第一個就是我們兩個公投案是不是是民進黨團口中所謂的會議無效因為事實上在之前也是在這個會議是我們針對就是由院長來主持的這個協商會那一天包括我們所提出來的就是相關的復議案"},{"start":2487.301,"end":2489.523,"text":"還有就是民進黨團也提出所謂的會議無效但是當天民進黨團總召就坐在陳培餘書記長位置旁邊那他自行撤回所以沒有所謂會議無效因為"},{"start":2503.976,"end":2525.969,"text":"自行撤回第二點就是說我們的公投主文其實非常清楚就是你是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決那其實大家都知道我們現在名為維持死刑但是因為法院必須各級法院必須一致決事實上已經達到了這個實質性的廢死"},{"start":2528.63,"end":2551.565,"text":"特別是最近 大家也知道就是馬國的女大生她之前被強制性交 然後被殺死這個案子事實上之前也速度判處死刑但是在憲法法庭做出必須要一致決的時候事實上她是速度被撤 也就被撤銷了她的死刑"},{"start":2553.306,"end":2560.152,"text":"所以驗證之前大家所關心所質疑的高度的認為其實這樣的一個憲法的判決事實上已經達成了就變成了我們實質廢死所以我覺得這樣一個至關這麼多民眾關心的而且很多受害人家屬也非常關心的特別是"},{"start":2579.386,"end":2591.729,"text":"認為應該仍然維持死刑而不應該變成實質廢死在我們全台灣也有八成以上的支持者所以我們認為應該交付給所有的人民來做公投以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們再補充介紹張志倫委員及東嘉賓委員那接下來我們請郭益群委員發言"},{"start":2604.765,"end":2632.952,"text":"我再次提醒就是3月25號當天其實6點就是應該是整個所有的當天議程結束的一個時間點但是7點20分這個韓國瑜院長呼吸室的入場進行不合法不合規的一個會議那當天的這個兩個公投一個就是反廢死一個就是反戒嚴那我先講一下就是關於所謂的這個公投法是2003年制定的這第二條規定全國性的公投的範圍是包含法律的覆決"},{"start":2633.692,"end":2660.841,"text":"立法原則的創制以及重大政策的創制跟覆決那這個當時其實在立法的時候其實他刻意不包含所謂的憲法的修正案那這個部分我提醒大家就是在2003年那個時候其實台灣政治高度的分化的一個時期那當時的這個所謂的這個朝野對於所謂的公投的一個範圍跟權限他們有非常激烈的一個爭議"},{"start":2661.961,"end":2682.072,"text":"那當然也很怕碰觸到所謂的這個比較敏感的一個議題導致政治的一個不穩定跟兩岸的緊張所以那個時候其實原因就在於這個憲法修正案的程序應該是屬於中華民國憲法增修條文直接規範是屬於更高位階的一個法律的程序"},{"start":2682.523,"end":2706.481,"text":"那根據這個憲法徵修條文的第一條跟第十二條這個修憲必須要經過立法院的提案四分之一的立委連署四分之三的立委出席四分之三的同意之後提交全民覆決那投票率必須要高達百分之五十以上而且要同意票要過半那這種分軌的一個設計主要就是為了要確保憲法作為國家根本大法的一個穩定性"},{"start":2707.362,"end":2723.064,"text":"避免透過一般公投程序輕易改變憲法進而影響國家的體制跟核心的一個價值那我想這個立法的當年立法的一個妥協後來是把這個所謂的憲法的修正是排除在公投法的適用範圍之外"},{"start":2724.526,"end":2752.644,"text":"那總括一句就是這個案子的本身本質上其實不但是違法違憲而且當天我們的會議其實是違規的更有可能會造成社會的一個動盪跟司法制度的一個傷害那也別忘了其實我們最近一次的死刑執行是在1月16號的槍決那這是最近在今年度1月16號我們才有執行槍決這樣子的一個事實的存在"},{"start":2753.089,"end":2756.361,"text":"所以廢死基本上我個人認為它就是一個假議題 以上"},{"start":2759.595,"end":2783.764,"text":"好 謝謝 那剛剛張七開委員有舉手 那張七開委員請發言今天氣氛不錯 蠻期待像培宇剛剛講的今天可以不要民進黨又反對變成要凍結一個月如果同意的話 後期就可以像我們上次朝野協商一下柯總召撤回案子之後我們可以讓這個案子順利的通過剛剛培宇提了一個很重要的你說這個案子是利用高費時的高支持度 沒有錯啊"},{"start":2784.764,"end":2809.219,"text":"台灣的民調每次都把八成以上反對這個廢死啊民進黨要選擇跟高明義對撞嗎?如果民眾都是主張廢死的民進黨真的要杯葛這個案子嗎?第二更重要的這個案子清清楚楚寫的死刑判決需不需要經過核議庭的一致決現在民眾從八成到九成反對的最主要就是這個"},{"start":2810.424,"end":2839.382,"text":"因為如果要求一字決 就等於是實質廢死了經過一審 二審到三審要一字決 十幾位法官怎麼可能呢那就變成是一個實質廢死所以請民進黨也看一下這個你們要挑戰說死刑判決以後真的還是一定要維持變成是何義廷一字決嗎 請你們把它看清楚那另外民進黨團剛剛提到說3月25號的那個會議到底 宴會那個到底有沒有效有啊 上次你們本來在朝野協商你們本來要提案"},{"start":2840.342,"end":2863.221,"text":"後來那天我拍了桌柯總裁不是說所有案子都撤回去了嗎你們等於承認那天會議已經有效啦怎麼今天又突然來提好不好所以我再次的呼籲不要跟高明義對撞那第二個請你們看清楚這個公投案公投案的這個內容第三個3月25號這個會議是有效的很期待今天我們一團和氣就通過讓這個案子趕快通過然後讓全民一起來做公投 謝謝"},{"start":2865.312,"end":2878.962,"text":"謝謝 那因為我是提案人嘛 那我這邊補充一下因為剛剛大家可能有誤會提案的內容我們提案內容不是說就那個可不可以執行死刑公投 不是這個所以二月的那個 他是就已經判決確定的"},{"start":2880.509,"end":2908.483,"text":"的那個執行者去執行是被執行者去執行那個是以前已經判決確定那我們今天討論的是法院的法官需不需要一致決才能判死刑這兩個議題不太一樣所以那個二月執行死刑那個案子其實跟我們今天的議題是不同這邊就簡單跟各位委員報告一下好那接下來請問還有好那鍾委員唉其實齁這個公民投票啊今年就是8月23號"},{"start":2909.898,"end":2937.551,"text":"那8月23號之前立法院發生什麼事情我們都很難講是不是蔣恩市長又說要倒閣要解散國會要全面改選到時候如果遇到這種情況立法院根據公民投票法第15條第二項的規定所提出來的那要怎麼樣去執行其實陳儒一開始之前很多委員或者當時這個案子在提出來的時候就提醒說這個公投提案的主文說"},{"start":2938.692,"end":2950.414,"text":"您是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策政策這是個政策嗎"},{"start":2954.69,"end":2981.197,"text":"判處死刑要不要一字決這不是個政策但是它是可以透過立法我們目前的主席本身是檢察官出身的合庭法官判處死刑如果要要求為一字決那刑事訴訟法當中就可以規定所以本院大可就相關法律案的修法去要求達到這樣的規定"},{"start":2983.786,"end":3011.286,"text":"去做更改這不是一個政策那在歧視呢我們說一下那如果說是根據第15條第二項那它的一個是指什麼其實前面郭榮有提到了這是根據公投法的第二條第二項的第三款第三款寫什麼呢就是寫立法院根據這個就是重大政策的創制或覆決"},{"start":3012.472,"end":3033.237,"text":"那麼因為你寫的你要適用這個第二條第二項第三款要用的是政策的創制或覆決所以把這樣的一個立法上應該與法律規定的事項形容為政策而根據這樣的一個方式來提交公民投票那我們來看一看請大家翻譯一下"},{"start":3034.636,"end":3047.367,"text":"我們的公投法第15條第二項它是給誰用的它寫得很清楚是立法院對於第二條第二項第三款任有提出公民投票之必要者"},{"start":3048.618,"end":3074.367,"text":"附具主文理由書那麼經立法院院會通過10日內來交給主管機關辦理公民投票下面這一段請特別注意不是用第9條到第13條以及第17條第一項第三款和第19條的規定請問大家知道第9條到第13條講的是什麼程序嗎"},{"start":3075.78,"end":3095.641,"text":"講的是如果不是由立法院提出的公民投票就必須經由中選會通過對於公民投票的包括提案主文的審查這麼明顯的一個完全不合邏輯的主文由立法院多數黨來提出其目的就是要規避"},{"start":3096.762,"end":3123.366,"text":"這一個條文就是由中選會扮演對人民發起的公民投票它所為的必要之審查而且第17條第一項關於同條款的第三款那就是什麼指的就是如果說這個由我們立法院所提出來的那這裡面呢關於對於政府機關對於公民投票提出的意見書也不用放了"},{"start":3125.114,"end":3149.711,"text":"一個刑事訴訟法的意見書不需要司法院表示意見嗎公民有可能在司法院或法務部應該是司法院沒有提具意見下公民如果去做判斷呢那更有意思的是第19條第19條如果大家願意看一下是說如果由立法院提出的公民投票他不是用第19條第19條是什麼"},{"start":3152.293,"end":3167.492,"text":"創制案或法律之覆決案於公告前如今立法機關實現了創制或覆決之目的通知主管機關主管機關就要停止公民投票的進行並含之提案人之領先人"},{"start":3168.612,"end":3187.039,"text":"意思就是說,如果是一般非立法院提出的公民投票,如果立法院趕快的凡然悔悟,趕快的來修法,公民投票就不要老是動動去執行了所以我要在這裡提醒各位其他黨團的成員,今日一旦是根據公投法第15條第二項的規定來發動"},{"start":3188.89,"end":3217.917,"text":"連第19條的撤回的機會都沒有撤回的機會是什麼他說只要由立法機關實現創製獲補決的目的有沒有告訴大家立法機關可以實現目前提案主文裡面所謂的各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決立法院是可以透過立法去達成這個目的的是可以達成這個目的的情況之下就不需要去進行公民投票可以停止公民投票的執行啊"},{"start":3218.697,"end":3245.592,"text":"各位 大家在浪費 耗費的什麼樣的社會成本不是今天主席站出來我們在這裡講話的時間成本我在這裡講話的同時要提醒主席跟其他黨的成員一旦我們目前這個主文 這個決議文未來提交表決 提交討論表決通過那麼根據15條第二項的規定就完全沒有19條適用的餘地縱使在這之前 誠如各位有期待的我們透過修法達成了這樣的內容"},{"start":3247.014,"end":3259.585,"text":"也是要全國國民在8月23號大家出來跑一趟投一個無謂的公投我是說退一萬步講如果修法可以達成這個內容的目的的話今天一經發動是不可收回的強調兩點15條第二項是讓中央選舉委員會沒有辦法就公投法的主文來進行審查"},{"start":3272.577,"end":3292.06,"text":"第二沒有辦法讓司法院根據這樣的程序內容提出他們的相對意見第三縱使未來由國會多數黨通過這樣的修法案8月23號這樣的一個荒唐的無效的多餘的公民投票要勞煩全台灣的公民出來投一招"},{"start":3293.581,"end":3321.419,"text":"這個相較之下 我還覺得目前在討論的一些可能未來本屆的立法院 現在是子一屆我們可以執行 執行到什麼時候 還在未定之數呢請大家不要做出一個自己都沒有辦法負責而要求全民公民陪你玩的一個決定 以上好 謝謝 那我們補充介紹王育民委員我們剛剛有提到說各黨團是輪流發言那國民黨跟民眾黨現在是沒有舉手嘛那沒有要發言"},{"start":3322.372,"end":3348.939,"text":"有是不是因為我們剛剛是有預計說輪流發言那是不是王委員講完之後如果民眾黨沒有發言就換郭委員發言不好意思因為我們剛剛有說是輪流發言好來請王委員好謝謝主席各位委員大家好我想我們今天來討論的是反對實質廢死的公投很遺憾剛剛聽到這個民進黨的委員說這個是一個沒有意義的公投我跟各位報告"},{"start":3349.879,"end":3367.633,"text":"在这个中华人权协会跟台湾审议民主协会去年9月18号他们就做了一个公布死刑存废的审议民主的调查结果反对废除死刑的比例高达80.2%支持废死的比例只有9.2%"},{"start":3370.035,"end":3393.967,"text":"所以反對廢除死刑反對實質廢死我想這個是真正台灣人民的意見跟聲音但是很遺憾這件事情在去年九月的憲法法庭他卻罔顧了民意跟我們法律上面的情感他特別去加嚴了整個實質審判一定要一致決"},{"start":3394.929,"end":3417.387,"text":"那另外呢他也說要處於死刑叫做最嚴重之罪我請各位看一下這個之前發生在我們台灣社會非常慘絕人寰的新竹輪胎縱火案這個一把火燒死的是八個家人的性命而這件事情加害人陳彥祥他當時呢這個地院"},{"start":3417.867,"end":3447.627,"text":"他其實是處以死刑的但是在憲法法庭宣告這個宣判之後呢最高法院說陳彥祥不符合情節最嚴重之罪而且案發當時符合自首減刑要件所以從死刑蓋為無期徒刑一下子8條人命請問如果殺害了8條人命不是最嚴重之罪什麼才是最嚴重之罪"},{"start":3448.307,"end":3473.805,"text":"而當時的馬來西亞女大生案她遭受到這個非常殘暴的性侵致死這樣的一個案件大家民意沸騰那一樣也是這個一審二審跟一審都是判處死刑但是最高法院發回更審那在這樣的情況底下加上台灣的民意我們現在普遍多數都還是支持維持死刑的情況那這當然"},{"start":3475.666,"end":3498.416,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓這個憲法法庭他這樣一個解釋就要讓很多的死刑犯逃脫了死刑因此這樣一個公投是非常的有意義的而國民黨我們作為負責任的在野黨我們提出了這項公投就是要讓全國的民意再次透過公投再次透過投票"},{"start":3499.156,"end":3520.286,"text":"告訴憲法法庭的法官你們去年這樣的一個解釋讓很多的死刑犯逃過了死刑這一件事情台灣民眾應該是沒有辦法接受的那請民進黨也不要害怕其實公投不是洪水猛獸過去你們在野的時候不要忘了你們的先進"},{"start":3521.286,"end":3549.842,"text":"就是在力唱公投法那這個公投法就是讓人民的聲音表達出來而已它真的不是洪水猛獸當然我也反對在公投法上面去說哪一個公投是沒有價值跟意義的那這個難道是要去貶抑我們人民的力量跟聲音嗎所以過去民進黨不要忘記你們在倡議公投的時候都說公投就是讓人民當家作主"},{"start":3550.242,"end":3566.031,"text":"我們就是尊重人民是頭家這個也是你們最近常常在講的所以我覺得公投案就是我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的社會所有的公投案只要符合公投法他有提出那應該就要尊重"},{"start":3566.811,"end":3593.973,"text":"這樣子的一個公投案的成立而且中選會也必須依法來舉辦就讓台灣的民意展現然後告訴現在的執政者真正的民意到底是在哪裡國民黨我們反對實質的廢死我們也很負責任的提出這樣的公投我們就讓台灣的民眾一起來投票823一起來投票然後展現真正人民基層的力量以上 謝謝"},{"start":3596.616,"end":3598.758,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在請郭委員發言我要補充的就是說剛剛我講的那個1月16號最近一次執行槍決的這個死刑犯在1月15號的時候性侵殺害剛剛其實這個委員也特別提到就是馬來西亞的這個女學生的這個案他這一審是宣判死刑那吃毒公權終身"},{"start":3621.536,"end":3648.198,"text":"那也成為這個死刑釋憲之後維持死刑的一個判決雖然他在4月18號其實就是發揮在更審但是司法的程序當中本來就是可以一直在上訴的那這個我就不用特別多講但是我要講的是如果是用情緒操弄取代理性的對話我想這個死刑的存廢的問題一直都會是挑戰的這個社會的對話跟價值的一個主流的工具"},{"start":3648.838,"end":3666.191,"text":"那我想這個部分呢希望不要淪為所謂的政治的一個操弄那這個部分呢當然除了破壞司法制度的一個正當的程序的一個保障然後再次的提醒死刑其實是不可逆的一個急刑在任何的程序的保障其實都要避免所謂的冤案的產生"},{"start":3667.252,"end":3691.902,"text":"所以我說這個不可不勝但是我還是要再回歸到所謂的當天3月25號這場不合規也是不合法的一個會議在6點之前沒有主席沒有進來到議場宣布延長會議的同時為什麼7點20分的這個會議我們必須要坐在這個地方來講這件事情以上"},{"start":3695.263,"end":3700.22,"text":"還有哪一位國民黨或民眾黨有沒有要發言那沒有的話請問民進黨這邊"},{"start":3702.163,"end":3731.226,"text":"主席我想要回覆一下剛剛王委員提到的所謂撤案協商的事情喔事實上我們當天是撤回這個協商標的也就是只是讓他標的不再存在我們只是在當天沒有協商這件事情而已但是事實上在那天協商之前我們就已經有針對這個違法會議有對韓國瑜院長還有周萬蘭秘書長我們有一個紀律案的提出那我們也親自到院長辦公室去送案喔那"},{"start":3731.886,"end":3760.655,"text":"我們當天撤除這個協商的標的並不認同我們並不認為對不起並不代表我們認同當天禮拜二3月25號禮拜二7點20才召開的會議是一個合法的會議所以我們而且我要再次強調我們不僅送出了紀律的提案到目前為止韓國瑜院長周恩來秘書長都沒有積極的處理也沒有給予回應那到目前為止我們也沒有撤回對那個紀律案的提案"},{"start":3761.135,"end":3765.779,"text":"我再次強調 我們只有在當天撤回所謂的協商標的 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那請問國民黨跟民眾黨沒有要發言的話 林委員剛才國眾兩黨都一直在講說我們"},{"start":3781.354,"end":3799.333,"text":"事實上是高明義在支持死刑那我就覺得那為什麼還要公投而且這個台灣事實上是有死刑的我們並沒有廢除死刑那這是一個事實所以113年的憲判制的第八號的判決認為死刑作為刑法本身和憲"},{"start":3800.322,"end":3816.072,"text":"第二 該死人當然應該要判死大法官認為刑法必須符合憲法的罪者原則或者罪行相當原則 犯什麼罪就給予什麼樣的處罰郭殺人或者是故意殺人所受的處罰必須有所區別"},{"start":3818.813,"end":3843.728,"text":"並故意殺人儘管結果皆為被害者死亡但過程當中使用的手段的殘忍程度跟犯罪者的心智狀態都應該在法官量刑的時候一併做考量而且依據綜合考量的結果來給予符合該犯刑的處罰所以故意殺人者最重得處死刑可是對於尚未達到犯罪情節屬最嚴重的個案的標準的人"},{"start":3844.438,"end":3867.079,"text":"則大可以判他10年20年所以對此我們要做的事是那些規定違死刑的條文是不是應該剝奪是不是會剝奪掉法官量刑的一個權利該不該修正的問題第三呢該不該死要有嚴謹的審判所以大法官認為死刑判決的時候要非常謹慎不可以濫殺無辜"},{"start":3867.859,"end":3895.84,"text":"那所以在判決書裡邊的確提出來了一些要求甚至各級法官合憲法庭必須一致同意的來判處死刑那這是要用比較嚴謹的正當的法律程序來避免個人主觀所造成的原因避免濫殺那第四如果法官判錯最後是不是全民要承擔結果今天國民黨的提案將造成我們宣判死刑的"},{"start":3896.7,"end":3920.349,"text":"標準降低在地方法院一審核議庭的時候跟高等法院只有兩個人可做死刑判那到最高法院三個人便可決定不管被告是否犯刑重大民眾會覺得在這樣的一個機制底下做出來的死刑判決太過草率嗎所以判處的最後還是整個社會要付出很高的代價"},{"start":3922.368,"end":3942.041,"text":"當下我們支持廢死的人對於法院判死刑判決的質疑正是認為法院輕判的死刑判決造成冤獄的機率太高要擬平反廢死的爭議只有讓整個程序優化來更謹慎地做出判決"},{"start":3943.522,"end":3967.811,"text":"所以我覺得國民黨是來亂的啦國民黨今天提出來這個提案意圖不是在為台灣建立一個更嚴謹的司法程序彌平爭議而是希望台灣社會繼續讓廢死跟反廢死這兩群善良的人發生爭執造成撕裂再把一切的結果丟到執政黨身上如果真的為台灣好就請收回提案 謝謝"},{"start":3973.445,"end":3997.294,"text":"民進黨什麼時候變成這麼怕公投了而且民進黨還要選擇繼續維持實質廢死嗎剛剛民進黨發言的幾位代表都知道說台灣是高度的多數的人反對實質廢死那你為什麼還是選擇一條跟高民力對撞的路呢"},{"start":3999.258,"end":4026.698,"text":"為什麼要這樣選擇呢?包括剛剛提的你們為什麼對公投是洪水猛獸呢?讓人民來做個公決不是很好的這件事情嗎?民進黨過去提了多少個公投案啊?就你們現在一直在汙名化公投那你們把以前的案子都撤回去以後民進黨都不要提公投了嗎?今天的公投案子非常的清楚死刑判決不須何議庭一致決他就是因為民意沸騰"},{"start":4028.123,"end":4052.056,"text":"人民本來八成的反對 face 到後來有九成那你們要選擇對撞 那就讓公民 讓民眾來決定啊為什麼要再擋咧你們一邊說 你都知道他是高民意的一個支持那為什麼要擋咧公投是長久你們主張的我告訴你們啊 以前你們有一個最有名的蔡公投啊民進黨以前口口聲聲贊成公投結果現在要剝奪人民公投的權利嗎請民進黨三思"},{"start":4055.765,"end":4069.375,"text":"而且另外我再補充一個你們在講這個3月25號這個開會這個議程當天國民黨跟民眾黨的立委都進場去拉我們經過一個正常的程序法定的程序完成了這個會議的這個議程"},{"start":4070.996,"end":4094.799,"text":"然後上次協商就坐在這邊啊你們提的案子確實自己都撤回去了嘛那天我拍完之後我以為柯建民醒來啦那撤回去大家都認為已經結案了今天又拿出來講只是為了把這個公投案擋住嗎已經結案的事情為什麼一直在講不要再找藉口我覺得你們現在是跟民意跟這個高支持度的這個民意在對撞請大家看一下這次的公投案的內容好不好"},{"start":4095.419,"end":4118.999,"text":"可能的話我還是苦口婆心建議你們民進黨不要再反對讓這個案子可以順利的通過 謝謝因為待會還有那個王委員還有鍾委員發言那因為今天對的我們等一下都會讓大家發言那因為今天好像也都沒有共識是不是說待會兩位發言完之後除非還有人還要繼續發言啦不然是不是說"},{"start":4120.18,"end":4140.572,"text":"如果大家都沒有共識,我們待會在兩位委員發言完畢後結束,還是有誰還要繼續發言也可以沒有沒有,我們是那個政黨這樣輪著啊對,林委員完,後來就張委員,張委員完,王委員,然後再中委員對啊,剛剛是這樣啊好,那就麻煩王委員"},{"start":4142.702,"end":4159.575,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位委員因為我們今天的協商那因為我覺得還是要留下記錄所以有些事情我覺得還是必須以闡明就是有關於我們在院會裡面處理兩項公投案"},{"start":4160.436,"end":4183.176,"text":"是根據立法院議事規則第22條來處理這個議事規則寫得非常非常清楚我們開會時間是上午的9點到下午6點但是在質詢的程序中呢質詢的時候呢 它是把它延長到質詢結束"},{"start":4184.477,"end":4204.122,"text":"所以當天確實是他的議程裡面是有種質詢所以這個其實包含這個院長也好或者是這個我們的秘書長也好立法院秘書長也好都已經說過很多次所以有沒有意識這個會議無效並不是民進黨說了算"},{"start":4209.223,"end":4220.308,"text":"而且剛才我也特別提到在4月8號的時候是由民進黨黨團的總召柯建民總召主動撤回這項協商"},{"start":4222.796,"end":4247.436,"text":"那第二是刚才必须也回应一下民进党的同仁讲到公投就是你支持这个公投我觉得大家可以各有论述但是公投本来就是法定的民主程序本来就是法定民主程序结果竟然可以讲说国民党提公投案是来乱的"},{"start":4248.217,"end":4261.974,"text":"我覺得如果今天按照法定的民主程序來提公投案變成是來亂的我不曉得民進黨的一個所謂的民主的素養在哪裡"},{"start":4263.277,"end":4279.898,"text":"然後說我們提出這個公投是來增加社會對立不要忘記是憲法法庭所做的一個判決使得民眾對於Face的疑慮因此而升高"},{"start":4280.899,"end":4307.083,"text":"所以我們才有必要讓民眾讓公民來執行他們的一個權利所以我必須要講就是說針對公投案這樣的論述大家同不同意可以各抒己見但是請對基本的法定的民主程序請對基本的公民權利要有一定的尊重以上"},{"start":4309.891,"end":4333.588,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝主席 我因為要確認一下大家手上都有拿到我們這個關係文書如果沒有拿到的 因為我的發言需要透過關係文書來說明在場的人如果沒有關係文書可能我的說明 你看 就紛紛要離開了因為主席已經預告了 這個結論沒有結論我是很希望 現在還在看轉播的人看一下"},{"start":4334.409,"end":4349.98,"text":"立法院的官新聞書國民黨提出的憲法法庭釋字113號 憲判8號 它怎麼寫它說法院組織法就主文第一項案件未明定因經何穎婷法官之一字訣 使得科除死刑"},{"start":4352.299,"end":4363.796,"text":"與憲法保障人民生命權與正當法律程序原則之意旨有違他說明什麼他說明說大法官認為如果說我們要"},{"start":4365.211,"end":4383.332,"text":"對判處死刑要一致判決這應該要定在法院組織法裡面明文規定那麼這樣子才能有所依循而且憲判還說那麼有關機關憲判日二年內依本判決一旨修正事實誰啊司法院"},{"start":4386.394,"end":4410.112,"text":"要對法院組織法提出或者說立法院要就法院組織法將這個部分依照憲判的內容予以落實在法條在裡面今天立法院捨自己的法定義務職權捨憲判八號不由憲判八號113憲判八號他的地位跟什麼一樣跟4至748號解釋文一樣"},{"start":4412.213,"end":4429.058,"text":"我們當年因為婚姻平權司法院做了4-748號的一個解釋文於是立法院盡他的義務通過了行政院提出的4-748號施行法"},{"start":4430.118,"end":4445.514,"text":"這就是充分的說明了這個裡面說的憲法的分權原則立法權有義務就憲判或大法官解釋在兩年內要修正這樣的法律條文"},{"start":4446.414,"end":4469.553,"text":"如果真的在野黨尊重大法官尊重憲法的話就應該要在兩年內或者是由司法院提出司法院組織法法院組織法或者說是由立法院自己提出通過根據憲判意旨的修正條文結果在野黨不由此圖他講了說明的第三點再唸給大家聽他說"},{"start":4472.864,"end":4500.518,"text":"程序問題應該是由具有民意基礎的立法院來決定而非毫無民意基礎的大法官憑其個人價值而選的說得很好啊你如果認為大法官沒有民意基礎你認為應該由民意基礎的立法院來決定現在這個有關於判決死刑的程序問題就是要立法院你來修法啊國民黨的提案文的說明二跟說明三自打耳光啊"},{"start":4501.513,"end":4520.004,"text":"一方面完全無視於1.13宪判八號要求相關機關必須在兩年內就這個程序上的問題提出修法再方面他在第三點又說你大法官沒有民意基礎我立法院才有民意基礎那你有民意基礎你又不修法那你在幹嘛"},{"start":4523.618,"end":4544.404,"text":"所以我就覺得說國民黨這個提案真的是奇聞共欣賞啊今天他們都不在啦大概知道我要念這一段啦都跑掉啦現在就全國大家在看這個直播的人就知道啊因為可能現場畫面前面就在看我們直播的人可能不曉得立法院關係文書這院總第21號委員提案第11010136號"},{"start":4547.796,"end":4567.254,"text":"大家看一下 上網去看一下 提案說明的說明二跟說明三自打耳光 自己帶多職責 還好一直在那邊縮嘴我今天沒有要去討論當時這個提案通過的立法院有沒有落實我們的議事常規我也不談所謂的死刑的執行 因為我的程序應該如何規定"},{"start":4568.115,"end":4596.876,"text":"我只談113憲判八字號明文的要求權責機關要在兩年內就程序的部分予以明確規定才不會抵觸憲法保障人權在剝奪相關人生命權的時候必須遵循的相關的法律程序要旨憲判八號明明白白的告訴相關主管機關你要做這個事情結果立法院的多數黨一方面奚落憲法法庭不具民意基礎一方面又說自己才是有民意基礎的有修法權利的"},{"start":4597.984,"end":4599.609,"text":"那你有修法權利 你又不修"},{"start":4600.802,"end":4629.63,"text":"你不修法 你要大家公民投票 你是在幹什麼更不用說你們現在通過的15條公投法第15條第二項的規定成為我剛剛講的三點理由選委會沒有辦法就這樣的公圖主文給予審查意見第二 司法院沒有辦法就法院組織法應該如何來調整這個部分提出意見第三 就算是未來我們修法有落實了這個部分今年8月23號如果這個東西通過的話全民還要做一場無謂的公民投票"},{"start":4630.666,"end":4631.126,"text":"好 那接下來是"},{"start":4656.175,"end":4672.1,"text":"請郭委員發言要不然回答一下要是你不是在台下就跑掉了我的回答就是看不懂回去多看幾次那就麻煩郭委員發言"},{"start":4674.929,"end":4701.379,"text":"那我我我好主席我最后一个那就好谢谢主席虽然对面的国民党还有民众党委员都已经离开了但是我还是要主席谢谢主席我很快把它讲完3月25号当天呢他们说那天是进行总质询所以按照那个议事规则呢是可以进行研会的我们来说要怎么样可以延长会议呢必须要在6点钟以前有人就是有立法会员提出相关提案"},{"start":4702.574,"end":4717.925,"text":"要延長會議我們知道那一天呢黃國昌委員他有提出一個臨時提案要延長會議時間但是很不好意思這個是黑箱提案桌面下的提案因為沒有人看到而且主席也沒有進來宣讀也沒有進行表決這是第一個"},{"start":4718.445,"end":4737.673,"text":"第二個一直到當天六點以前呢韓國瑜院長都沒有走進來宣布要延長會議時間就靜置的決定偷偷摸摸延長會議時間更可笑的是呢當天到底是進行到哪一趴其實當天只有進行到討論事項之前根本都還沒有進入總諮詢喔所以如果剛剛王紅薇委員不好意思她又不在"},{"start":4738.473,"end":4757.518,"text":"如果王宏威委員堅持當天是總質詢那請你回頭去看一下當天的IVOD直播根本是只有進行到討論事項之前所以我們還要再次強調當天3月25號通過這兩個公投提案它就是一個空殼公投當天的會議就是一個違法會議而當天會議所進行出來的表決就是一個非法表決謝謝"},{"start":4759.358,"end":4779.629,"text":"主席 再一次 抱歉好 請說抱歉 好請說剛剛說民進黨要剝奪人民公投的權利我想我們根本就沒有修公投法何來剝奪人民公投的權益我們很認真地在面對我們不是怕公投我們怕的是沒有邏輯 沒有腦袋 沒有意義的公投浪費民脂民膏的公投 浪費人民時間的公投謝謝"},{"start":4780.569,"end":4788.014,"text":"好 謝謝 那本日協商過程公開那發言內容都已經錄音錄影並列入紀錄"},{"start":4792.366,"end":4819.108,"text":"不是啦 你看不懂我沒有必要解釋給你聽啦因為我跟你講 我跟你共識一年多了你的作風我很了解啦我沒有說好不好 我只是說我很了解喔好 因人代繼續溝通取得共識那後續依立法院執行新政法第十二章相關規定已請院長召開黨團協商會議進行協商好 謝謝各位 散會好了 好了 好了"},{"start":4823.108,"end":4824.09,"text":"好好好好了好了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}