{"error":false,"id":["166266"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166266,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166266","日期":"2025-12-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-12-10T09:28:35+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-10T09:40:51+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0a5b74495f6bb9d28ff56a78bd28eb122e95b9c653acd4d722d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:28:35 - 09:40:51","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.654718750000001,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.244093750000001,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":36.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.41346875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.46596875,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.072218750000005,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.77221875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.12596875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.47534375000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.90534375,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.37784375000001,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.89659375000001,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.63471875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.48909375000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.86346875000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.19221875,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.53784375,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.28721875000002,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.19346875000002,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.10221875000002,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.76284375,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":179.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.78721875000002,"end":187.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.14409375000002,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.90721875,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.86721875,"end":223.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.54471875000002,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.15471875000003,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.62596875000003,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.28659375,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.24846875000003,"end":270.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.35784375000003,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.69471875,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.48346875000004,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.73971875,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.40346875,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.75221875,"end":299.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.57471875000005,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.47471875,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.13346875,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":348.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.65659375,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.46659375,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.20471875000004,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.65096875,"end":352.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.81971875000005,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.74284375,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.46846875,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.65409375,"end":359.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.79846875000004,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.36971875,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.03159375,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.57534375,"end":474.285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有請石部長來 請部長 謝謝副長長部長 我想請教您還有社家署州署長你們兩位認為自己了解身障者嗎 身心障礙者嗎你們認為你們了解嗎 你們是專家嗎"},{"start":28.577,"end":50.674,"text":"不敢說是專家但是身為這個生權法的主管機關我們盡我們的能力來瞭解身障者的需求我問這個問題是因為CRPD一直強調的就是在投影片也有Nothing about us without us部長知道這句話嗎部長這句話的意思是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":51.999,"end":79.042,"text":"就是說所有在制定相關的制度的時候呢那麼應該要有身障者的參與讓他們沒有他們的參與呢這些政策更白話的講就是說如果沒有我們的加入請不要幫我們做決定這句話已經存在20年了在至少但是這句話到政府我覺得一直是沒有注意到或是沒有尊重障礙者的意見跟想法經常還是找專家學者"},{"start":79.542,"end":101.645,"text":"我們台灣的收視鏡好找專家學者來做決定忽略了障礙者才是最清楚他真正的處境他就是真正的專家障礙者本身那請問部長你們送到行政院的這個身權法草案剛剛你有稍微提到說提高席次但是我要再跟您確認您有沒有規定身障者在委員會的要有過半的席次呢"},{"start":103.427,"end":118.799,"text":"我們現在的推動小組的版本目前當然目前來講是差不多是佔四分之一未來我們的行政院版本我們現在希望把它提高就是身心障礙者代表及身障者合計的"},{"start":119.6,"end":141.5,"text":"人數能夠過半我想要提醒你一下就是說有些機構跟團體代表並不代表他們的結構成員結構就是殘障者障礙者那你了解這件事嗎我了解所以我們談的所謂的過半甚至有人提到四分之一或更高我們談的是本身本人障礙者本人的加入那如果你沒有把他們放進去"},{"start":142.381,"end":169.927,"text":"部長你是會認為他們沒有表達的能力嗎沒有表達參與的這個決策能力嗎不會 我們現在建議的方式是以身障者跟身障者代表因為身障者代表當然就是由身障者所推出來的代言人他們一定是能夠代表他們身障者的意識來行使所以身障者代表跟身障者那麼超過這些委員會中過半我們是支持的"},{"start":170.867,"end":186.437,"text":"我們現在的精神就已經到說就是說以障礙者為主就不說他的代表因為現在的精神就一直要往前推進雖然你剛剛有稍微報告我還是再請教你您有把明文把這個未來的版本把個人助理服務寫進法條嗎"},{"start":188.5,"end":213.874,"text":"在我们的这个身权法第五十条的第九项第九款就已经纳入了自立生活服务因为个人助理服务只是自立生活服务中的一环因为在我们的这个身心障碍者个人服务办法里面就有第九章专门在谈自立生活服务那么自立生活服务里面已经有个人助理"},{"start":214.474,"end":241.862,"text":"因為他不限於個人自立生活服務不等於個人助理他只是這個自立生活服務裡面的一個服務的選項那我再請教你您就所謂自立生活獨立生活跟社區參與部分有入法嗎有入法在社區生活跟自立生活服務都在入法裡面第50條裡面有明訂的服務項目所以我可以確定是個人助理服務入法並沒有入法你只是用他的一個服務範圍或等等去涵蓋嗎"},{"start":243.022,"end":270.273,"text":"對 就是在自立生活服務是入法的那自立生活服務呢他在個人服務照顧辦法個人照顧服務辦法裡面有明定的在個人助理的部分謝謝部長 也要讓這個障礙者他們會關注他們要了解我們今天談的不是抽象的人權就是一條一條的人命根據自立生活聯盟的統計2017年到現在有84起長照殺人事件"},{"start":271.013,"end":288.68,"text":"那根據家庭照顧總會的統計則是從2018年到2024年7年間平均每年將近9件長照殺人這些案件法官在判決書裡有這麼寫家屬不熟悉政府提供的社會福利補助"},{"start":289.48,"end":314.417,"text":"政府也未能適時轉介相關的福利與制度結果讓照顧者長期被迫獨自承擔壓力部長您自己也說過這個反映了照顧者支持系統不足政府要做得更多那我想請教您說要做得更多是做什麼做到哪裡那如果你沒有把社區支持個人助理放在裡面那這樣子把這個權力還給這個障礙者那您覺得像類似這種長照殺人這個杯哥還會再發生激情呢"},{"start":319.54,"end":339.005,"text":"我們不斷的在精進這個支持性的服務啦那麼包含了這個喘息服務包含了社區的多元的資源的整合協助還有家庭照顧者的支持服務所以我們不斷的在擴成這些服務資源同時呢也透過這個風險的篩檢我們有這個叫做高風險的篩檢指標來"},{"start":344.006,"end":349.612,"text":"極早的發現這個高負荷的家庭照顧者來做調整但是你要叫國際審查委員會IRC嘛2022年打的分數是什麼他們在意見欄裡面表達什麼失望"},{"start":359.673,"end":380.047,"text":"他認為政府推動障礙者的權益時仍然以慈善跟生物醫學的觀點來做政策意思是政府並沒有看到障礙者的主權性跟權利這個觀念是很重要的仍然把障礙者視為他被照顧被管理甚至是一個依賴慈善救助的角色"},{"start":380.908,"end":396.473,"text":"就這個價值觀的轉換是非常的關鍵如果不在生權法裡面補上這些權利難道你就要有心理準備你會再被國際點名就是你會打的分數又是失望部長您了解這件事嗎您了解這件事的嚴重性"},{"start":397.673,"end":416.861,"text":"我相信經過這幾年的努力那是2022年我希望我下次看到你的分數會進步提醒部長上次的分數是失望部長醫美政策在你表達嚴管之後很快出現了髮夾彎原來衛福部主張要提升醫美安全強化醫師資格"},{"start":418.302,"end":440.175,"text":"但是企業商之後可以執行一枚手勢範圍擴大成11大科2019年之前沒有PGY的也要補件就可以合法執業繼續執業強制評鑑竟然變成了這個自律認證我想很多醫師都想知道你這個共識是怎麼形成的我想請部長說明我先講幾句話讓部長在"},{"start":441.556,"end":462.227,"text":"就是好好對大家來做說明擴大到11顆皆可以執行醫美手術的決策過程那大家特別關心加1顆為什麼呢因為相對於加1顆那一顆住院醫師訓練時有這個樁靜脈導管的一個急救插管中央靜脈導管抽胸水抽腹水的這些訓練"},{"start":463.408,"end":474.08,"text":"內科醫師們很困惑啊那為什麼是這個在訓練過程中比較少有這些侵入性的醫療的過程的訓練的家醫科醫師你可以允許他去抽脂呢請部長回答"},{"start":475.696,"end":503.831,"text":"這個跟委員說明在上次的會議只是在共識會議中的一場今天下午還有第二場所以並沒有做成最後的修法的決定還沒有決定精神科的醫師為什麼可以做大家有一些意見就是說今天還在繼續今天下午還有一場所以對於加一科是不是可以認定為大外科如果我個人的意見我是不認同"},{"start":504.451,"end":509.393,"text":"那麼應該要檢視他的訓練過程訓練過程裡面到底有多少的時數是有進行手術的訓練應該從這個觀點來看這個不是用協商的而是要看實際的他們的訓練過程那沒有PGY的醫學他的補健證據有沒有標準補健 他補什麼健那審查機制會不會公開"},{"start":528.382,"end":541.834,"text":"應該這麼講在108年之後我們才有正式的兩年的PGY制度所以108年以後的沒有完整兩年的PGY訓練的通通要補訓完成才能夠執行這個醫美處置是補訓還補健"},{"start":544.637,"end":560.855,"text":"補訓 回去訓練完那個機制我們都會看到那取消強制評鑑後 衛福部能夠保障醫美診所會更安全嗎已經好多起人命了當然在上個上個禮拜的這些醫事室所召開的"},{"start":561.696,"end":580.937,"text":"这个讨论里头这个会议讨论里头那么普遍当然在基层诊所对于这个平健这两个字呢是有点排斥的当然认为说这个医院平健造成了一些阴影不希望扩展到这个基层诊所但是"},{"start":581.658,"end":600.787,"text":"即使我們不做用評鑑這個名稱但是也要有一些品質的確保機制那麼不管它稱為認證也好還是什麼樣的名詞但是這個內容本身是要由衛生主管機關來認同要怎麼個做法裡面要看哪一些"},{"start":601.287,"end":624.255,"text":"特別是麻醉的安全 麻醉的安全一定在這些執行高風險手術的診所裡面需要去檢視的所以不論是用督導考核 不論是用認證都要你認為醫美非常重要 所以我處理陳情案的時候醫師是也表達說你非常重視這一塊醫美不見得是最重要 但是病人的安全是最重要"},{"start":625.135,"end":639.91,"text":"我講的就是一個安全啊那部長最後我想要提醒您就是說我上次有提出您要公佈一些譬如說有一些非常昂貴的價格的藥品您的公開資訊您要用民眾看得懂的字而且要說明清楚因為這次AADC事件要發生之後其實我們在看社會大眾對它有不理解有一些質疑其實受傷的"},{"start":647.777,"end":665.214,"text":"受傷式的喊病病人跟他們家庭雖然陳亮宇署長還有說相關共你會議記錄都是可受公平但我要強調可受公平不代表民眾是理解的有公開也不代表是有效溝通的所以您至少要先講一句喊藥是在特別的專款處理"},{"start":666.435,"end":689.869,"text":"第一個你要讓他們再瞭解然後要用淺白的話來說明為什麼你要做這個給付我想請媒體朋友也是要這樣做否則我們這個討論過程真的是傷害到這個很多這個家庭那我最後要講的是說那小兒科跟有一位罕病的醫師他說他們的訓練過程要10年那大部分來自小兒科跟兒科那但是以北龍來說今年那個小兒科只有"},{"start":690.709,"end":704.484,"text":"4成報到率內科只有6成報到率而且這些人將來未必會留在醫院所以有病人病人越來越多病人越來越多因為診斷能力等等醫學進步但是照顧這群病人是越來越少所以要請部長您好好想想辦法"},{"start":705.925,"end":730.468,"text":"跟委員報告為了這些比較困難診斷罕病都是比較難診斷所以我們在這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡面特別去建立這個叫做這個困難診斷的平台來做整合這委託台大兒童醫院要有醫師然後大家來一起協助這樣可以讓這個診斷的速度可以縮短加快謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":733.073,"end":734.062,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}