{"error":false,"id":["166272"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166272,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166272","日期":"2025-12-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-20-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-12-10T09:59:52+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-10T10:10:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c08049a485b79f9fd69ecb9f93c172c55144a569ea12001d974a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:59:52 - 10:10:52","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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請莊部長 阮次長"},{"start":14.349,"end":34.686,"text":"委員好部長我想法案上如果有官方的版本當然很好但是有時候有官方的版本也不能跑到委員會來這邊審查就如同財法法一般我們雖然有行政院的版本但是程序委員會都沒有辦法過所以說關鍵恐怕不是行政院版本與否"},{"start":35.346,"end":52.953,"text":"關鍵其實是一個對這個政策的一個基本態度的問題然後我們今天要談先談這個有關於這個財政收支發分法的這個部分財政收支發分法現在外面其實陷入一個付不付署公不公佈 執不執行的一個問題"},{"start":54.193,"end":81.141,"text":"那我也要提醒一下部長部長 這個圖片當中你也是附屬人之一這個問題一定要搞清楚連工商團體現在都看不下去了更何況本席要請教於你的在野黨的部分過去的時候我就一再強調你要去慎重溝通好像也沒有部長 這說一下吧現在僵局了 怎麼辦 怎麼處理以你部長的高度"},{"start":82.402,"end":93.315,"text":"跟委員報告 財化法其實是非常重要它是一個財政的基本法然後行政院也已經提出版本行政院是經過跟相關地方政府多次討論而且參酌了各專家學者的意見以後我們提出了院版的財化法"},{"start":101.524,"end":121.643,"text":"我們認為院版的裁劃法應該盡快的審議盡快的審議然後把已經走偏的火車趕快把它導正回來而不是一修再修二修三修院版的裁劃法就如同剛剛有委員說是需要召開公聽會連你去公視院版的裁劃法不知道歷經了幾次的公聽會歷經了幾次的各縣市的這個財政首長會議所累積而來的嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":126.955,"end":140.462,"text":"經過多次考慮 審慎了規劃就行政院的版本當中跟目前之前所通過的國中兩版國中兩版的相關的指標的部分其實過度粗糙我上一次就請審計部做一個藍白三次二修所造成的可能結果"},{"start":145.765,"end":146.146,"text":"這審計部的看法"},{"start":173.346,"end":175.867,"text":"就很清楚嘛再加上現階段舉債額度可能超過15%可能會違憲嘛對不對這些都問題然後呢我就今天我要感謝這個主席排我的版本我的版本當中第一個呢錢要隨市轉就是市權在決定這個財權這個整個地方才不會抗拒這個業務"},{"start":195.333,"end":218.012,"text":"二来我把统筹分配款拉到6000多亿累积起来大概可以补助给地方也是1.2兆这跟行政院版本也是相符第三呢指标细致化这也是跟行政院版本相符所以说呢相差无几行政院版本虽然晚了一点但是你们有你们的创建譬如讲你把研究税法的80%那个部分你也纳入了"},{"start":218.712,"end":238.11,"text":"這就是讓統籌分配款的財源給增加而且所有的指標跟權數也更加的細緻化是不是 部長這個部分你要怎麼辦既然是相對比較好的版本為什麼送不出去你沒有其他的方法嗎你有沒有窮盡洪荒之力去跟這些在野黨來做溝通 有沒有"},{"start":238.57,"end":256.636,"text":"是的 我们也都有去沟通我想这个部分还是希望我们院版的才化法能够赴委尽快审查大家都可以来讨论如同刚刚委员所说的上次3月12号公布的那个才化法确实有这样的一个问题第一个钱权下去但是事权没有同时做调整"},{"start":257.076,"end":272.51,"text":"那第二個部分指標相當粗略就是人口加上盈利事業營業額的分配達到75%這麼高那就是偏重在一個工商發達的一個城市我們告訴大家台北市光是盈利事業額所"},{"start":273.21,"end":295.423,"text":"貨配的金額115年就達到700多億比114年它各指標加起來都還多出16億元這你就知道讓富的更富但是其他的縣市尤其農業的縣份它並沒有獲得很好的一個支持那在院版裡面對於我們的農林榆木的人口產值我們都給予"},{"start":296.383,"end":299.984,"text":"指標來讓他來計算可以加成計算那對於農業憲憤他對於國家糧食對於國土保育我們都要給予回饋讓他能夠做更好的處理對 那個部長這個你要常在媒體說常跟藍白立委說啦你看連工商團體都看不下去了即便你那個版本現有的通過版本對工商地區比較發達的地方是好的可是連工商團體看不下去這樣的情況你真的要費盡心思啦"},{"start":324.293,"end":341.656,"text":"不能抹滅農業憲憤對國家的安全國家糧食安全的貢獻台南是六度當中明年是邁拉斯的在整個統籌分配款上面另外一個部分我再請一下那個次長次長你這份報告很好可是你剛剛完全沒有回答其他委員的這一個"},{"start":342.597,"end":358.122,"text":"那个值以我要说的其实是你现阶段的这个部分为什么5000亿变成这个一兆有它规模跟时间的向度对不对 这是第一个第二个的部分我说实在你根本不需要保留那四大基金3000万"},{"start":359.062,"end":375.495,"text":"你根本用不到嘛世大基金有它的自主性嘛講白一點你就乾脆把它刪掉你就跟著直接銀行調度就好了這樣你的運用空間會比較彈性嘛否則的話它就是為你五千億實際上你是哈咖啡系只有兩千億而且用得非常省用得非常的戰戰兢兢那事實上這種規模已經到這種階段了市長 你要講一下是"},{"start":381,"end":392.729,"text":"剛才因為他沒有讓我機會來回答所以我就沒有回答我在這邊做一個簡單的說明事實上我們國安基金條例是民國89年就開始實施了那時候股市的規模只有大概8.2兆現在已經回到將近100兆"},{"start":404.119,"end":423.014,"text":"足足大了十倍以上嘛對不對對那另外就是外資很重要外資那時候當時只有8.44%占比在8.44%那現在已經達到46.85%就是那個比重非常高另外就成交值日成交量來講的話"},{"start":424.375,"end":436.987,"text":"我們這個11月份那麼跟這個現在11月份那麼成交量就達到平均量就達到4800多億4800多億那事實上11月份達到6000多億那103年度也是一樣達到這個4600多億"},{"start":447.117,"end":454.038,"text":"所以以過去這個25年前的當時的這個規模2000億就是可以用的那個2000億來講以目前的這個股市的規模跟外資的這個比重來看的確在護盤上非常的困難非常困難也就是說那個心理因素沒有達到安全感的可能性就是說你不會認為有護盤的可能性嘛所以這個規模應該要增加嘛對不對 這理由上其實也講得非常清楚"},{"start":475.743,"end":497.338,"text":"那要問的是說你現在這一波是屬於第九波嘛進轉護盤嘛 是 沒錯那目前帳面上是plus還是minus的現在是正的是正的嘛 是正的那正多少因為沒辦法現在沒有辦法結算不方便講嘛依照股市的這個走勢你們那個時間點應該是正的沒有錯可是過去八次的進場當中總共獲利661億這個某個程度來說"},{"start":503.402,"end":528.332,"text":"是政府在賺這一個股災財就是黨散戶的時候心裡恐慌的時候紛紛棄股 落跑的時候你去撿便宜的股份這660億一下子無條件的歸入國庫這好像還是有問題新加坡都知道賺這種錢的時候他要拿出來發了你是不是要把這一筆錢來想像一個比較好的用途譬如講長照"},{"start":529.392,"end":549.27,"text":"譬如講健保 譬如講國保有沒有各種可能性跟委員報告國安基金的這個賺的錢經過委員會決議以後那我們基本上是繳戶繳戶以後那就該開始統收統支當然是知道放在大水庫當中我也不可能流到外面去我也清楚"},{"start":549.85,"end":558.336,"text":"那問題是現在我跟您提出來是說有些民眾說這些錢就是我們當初虧損的錢雖然不是這個被割韭菜但是是被割韭菜的這種情況底下你是不是要考慮一下跟委員報告這些賺的錢如果留在國安基金的話因為國安基金已經退場了也不能再買股票什麼都不行對 是沒有嘛我現在跟你講的是說你現在也plus"},{"start":576.85,"end":582.135,"text":"現在已經過去661嘛你這一次又Plus嘛又賺嘛這累積的金額會越來越高嘛大家眼睛會看啊你賺的錢怎麼用嘛你看你最近補充保費的問題啊國保的問題啊長照的經費的問題啊"},{"start":592.623,"end":610.655,"text":"是不是有可能在政策上來思考一下本席就問你這一點是 了解委員的想法如果要這樣做的話可能要修那個國安基金條例就是對他的用途要有明確的規範對 如果這基金的條例要修你們就政策上先討論委員會先行討論啦我建議你在委員會的時候內部先溝通一下可不可以"},{"start":611.395,"end":627.188,"text":"除了金額之外以後這個目標會越來越清楚你累積的這個獲利越高的話大家就會越去懷疑說你這筆錢真的是趁著這一個股災來累積財富那這個要大家要共識對 要共識你要過去討論啊可以吧"},{"start":631.331,"end":645.898,"text":"可以吧這部分我剛才跟委員報告過以目前的條例的規定是沒有 我就說你回去討論一下你今天即時祕書你就有提案的權利我們來研議我們來研議看看對 至少要去面對這個問題外面已經在挑戰了好不好是 我們來研議看看謝謝主席 謝謝部長跟次長好 謝謝郭委員接下來我們請賴會員委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}