{"error":false,"id":["166289"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166289,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166289","日期":"2025-12-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-36,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,20],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-12-10T10:49:47+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-10T11:01:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0fd0b544efb0c809fa68b3568d601d3dc19f30473e88220b3d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:49:47 - 11:01:27","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查監察院函請審議「審計部組織法第七條、第十條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.61471875,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.24096875,"end":33.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.21534375,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.55909375,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.12409375,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.70284375,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.38534375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.26034375,"end":190.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":200.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.42659375000002,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.29909375000003,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.71534375000002,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.86659375000002,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.24471875,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.34596875000003,"end":225.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.37971875000002,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.98721875,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.29034375,"end":247.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.79659375000003,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.06471875000003,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.41846875000002,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.56284375,"end":269.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.56284375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.33034375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.54846875000004,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.46346875,"end":283.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.02784375000005,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.53221875,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.59471875,"end":308.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.74159375,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.68659375000004,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.72784375000003,"end":327.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.59221875000003,"end":324.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.16971875,"end":338.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.13784375,"end":372.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.81659375000004,"end":373.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.33971875000003,"end":376.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.03534375000004,"end":379.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.44846875,"end":387.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.97471875,"end":398.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.83346875,"end":403.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.30534375,"end":404.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.21659375,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.53284375000004,"end":408.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.57034375,"end":412.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.21534375000005,"end":418.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.56471875000005,"end":420.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":427.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.22221875,"end":424.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.51721875000004,"end":431.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.16659375,"end":428.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.28409375,"end":461.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.70159375000003,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.75971875000005,"end":440.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.00096875,"end":464.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.65034375000005,"end":473.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.78534375000004,"end":466.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.89784375000005,"end":477.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.58909375,"end":484.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.65221875000003,"end":480.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.57159375000003,"end":488.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.70159375000003,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.29846875000004,"end":503.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.54721875,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.98596875000004,"end":518.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.86971875,"end":523.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.76409375,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.1672187500001,"end":536.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.41034375,"end":560.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.61659375,"end":546.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.2178437499999,"end":562.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.1159687500001,"end":566.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.92596875,"end":574.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6415937500001,"end":575.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.87784375,"end":584.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.98721875,"end":578.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.9184687500001,"end":594.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.4484687500001,"end":606.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.32846875,"end":614.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.8840937500001,"end":617.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.17909375,"end":621.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.58784375,"end":624.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.7647187499999,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.4184687500001,"end":646.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.02284375,"end":660.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.0265937500001,"end":651.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.2703437499999,"end":658.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.93221875,"end":659.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.8390937500001,"end":660.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.8728437500001,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.8897187500002,"end":664.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.56846875,"end":664.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.2434687500001,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.80846875,"end":668.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.66471875,"end":670.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.65096875,"end":682.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.0134687500001,"end":679.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.05971875,"end":683.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.72596875,"end":693.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.31846875,"end":700.05659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.643,"end":5.663,"text":"請沈記長"},{"start":19.31,"end":31.792,"text":"今天主要是要討論有關於審計部組織法修正的事情我想就是在大家最為關切的也就是有關於審計部未來打算要增設政務副審計長現在主要是常務的副審計長未來要增加的是政務的副審計長"},{"start":40.174,"end":59.7,"text":"那当然大家对于增加政务副审计长最concern的就是怕会不会以后政务副审计长又变成政治酬庸那当然这个审计长这边有保证说还是会以专业考量来提名这个政务的副审计长不过我在想说就法条的设计上面"},{"start":60.22,"end":78.215,"text":"因為現在對於這個審計長的任用資格在審計部組織法裡面第二條裡面其實就列出很多項規定那本席這邊是也會接下來我會提出個修正動議就是針對副審計長的資格也要明併甚至可能就是要準用"},{"start":79.196,"end":108.056,"text":"在審計部組織法第二條提名審計長的時候的前兩項的專業規定也就是說要曾經擔任過副審計長或者是具備有審計官九年以上資格的人才可以擔任政務副審計長這個部分的話不知道就是 呃 審計長您的看法如何就是如果說我們要強化有關於政務副審計長的資格的話是不是可以從這方面來著手"},{"start":108.336,"end":109.177,"text":"謝謝委員的為我們強化我們政府副審計長的專業獨立來幫忙想方法非常謝謝我們可以從這方面來努力"},{"start":125.75,"end":144.822,"text":"因為我想這樣的做法可能可以減少外界對於未來政務副審計長可能又落入政治酬庸他本身不是在方面專業卻又來擔任政務副審計長的一律這是本席的看法我基本上是支持就是審計部是可以設置政務副審計長"},{"start":145.683,"end":160.496,"text":"那只是當然現在還有一些問題包含就是說這個政務副審計長未來需不需要經國立法院同意任命因為畢竟審計長您是經國立法院同意任命的那政務副審計長他的資格以及他未來他所要承擔的責任"},{"start":163.758,"end":190.454,"text":"當這個審計長如果說有缺席的時候那他必須要來就是擔任首長職位所以看起來就是對於副審政務副審計長的資格的還有這個同意權的行使似乎也是可以這個在一起討論是不是要做更嚴謹的考量那我想這個部分的話等到我們之後進入到主條審議的時候呢我們再來談不曉得審計長您的看法呢"},{"start":191.109,"end":214.228,"text":"因為我已經經過立法院的大家的同意非常謝謝大家的認同 支持一個現在要送進立法院的那個證物的或者是要立法院審議的大部分都合意住"},{"start":215.189,"end":229.659,"text":"包括所有的考試委員 監察委員大法官或者中央委員會的委員這些都合一組我總統那個憲法裡面我看起來我是"},{"start":230.86,"end":232.542,"text":"唯一的嘛是首長制的所以如果我是在弄因為這些都有任期剛剛那個用同意錢的都有任期所以應該不太適用同意錢的形式"},{"start":248.221,"end":267.363,"text":"不過這個部分我們之後再來討論了那當然您剛剛講到就是說現在很多的這個獨立機關他們合一制的獨立機關這個相關的成員都有經過立法院同意任命所以這裡面有一個議題就是說其實過去也有人在提出說是不是審計部未來應該從首長制改成合一制機關"},{"start":268.624,"end":273.746,"text":"您有認同這樣子的一個看法嗎因為您剛剛也講說您當過這個審計長可是有時候還是需要比較多不同的意見後來幫您發想一些這樣的議題這一個我不世界各國都有有所長制像美國是所長制像日本是合一制每一個都不一樣但是因為這個牽涉的範圍牽涉因為我"},{"start":298.355,"end":303.019,"text":"在憲法裡面的對這個還是要憲法裡面的一些規定所以要這是要從長計議什麼是對國家最好因為這不關公共的這是關於國家整個什麼是最好的所以我就說提出來這個想法就是沈記長那看起來你如果說是這個設計良善的話也不反對了沈記長我可以接受主要對國家好對人民好我都福國利民的事情我通通不反對"},{"start":327.936,"end":342.082,"text":"接下來還有一個問題就是說因為這次您提出來的法案看起來人事行政總署跟循序部對於要調升值等的意見他們是有意見的"},{"start":342.842,"end":357.725,"text":"也就是說認為說現在這次審計部提出來的要調增什麼兼任八到九職等的職務然後以及其中可以列檢任的有多少人等等他們認為說是與行政院及考試院各機關的職務配置原則就是各機關職稱及官等職等配置原則是有不同的那麼您這方面怎麼解釋呢"},{"start":369.455,"end":396.592,"text":"向委員報告 我做所長一個方向說我要做什麼 做什麼 做什麼 一個方向我就交代我的人事責任說你要 我唯一給他的說通通要符合目前相關的法制因為我審計但是看起來現在跟這個整個原額配置原則是不同嘛所以這個部分的話是不是有可能再跟人事行政總部或權需部裡面去談一下是不是你們調真的原額過多"},{"start":400.777,"end":412.457,"text":"這個部分我給委員一些概念我檢認的只有占比百分之十幾大宴的預算中心占比百分之六十五"},{"start":413.906,"end":430.825,"text":"我的那個監察院的調查次占比百分之三十幾我如果再調升照這個調升才百分之二十阿委員你出聲華麗嘛我知道 就是沈縣長我跟你說如果是這樣的話我建議您要把相關的數據都"},{"start":432.927,"end":461.247,"text":"這個做清楚你們審計部跟其他單位的比較那這樣的話大家比較能夠支持你們要調生還有一個部分就是有關於這個事前審計功能不彰的部分本身也要提出來其實是依照現在審計法的規定這個審計部的功能不是只是在事後審計包含在事前或是在整個的預算執行當中你們都可以去派員去做進行相關的審計業務可是看起來你們在事前審計的部分你們有"},{"start":462.368,"end":477.367,"text":"這個功能沒有發揮我那時候來第一任的時候來立法院講那個六十監督強化洞察 邁向前瞻邁向前瞻就是事前要疫情在危難還沒有發生之前告訴"},{"start":478.669,"end":488.816,"text":"那個行政機關 你可能會面臨什麼風險是 但是事實上我還是看到還是有很多 後來這個重大的弊案產生對 但是這個系統性風險 我用數位審計現在會看到 怎麼都會圍繞出口證明圍繞進口證明和那個延長文件 那一抓"},{"start":502.492,"end":518.233,"text":"幾百件啊幾百件所以這個就是把系統性的風險找好既然你們有這事前審計的功能你們可以發揮這樣的功能然後有這樣的職權其實應該要在這個整個預算的執行當中你們就要"},{"start":518.934,"end":535.849,"text":"我們盡量來但是我已不干涉行政部門的行政不要說是發生了一些弊端之後才來做事後審計那當然你們事後審計其實也抓出了不少的弊案那你們這些弊案都有送監察院去只要效能不當或者未進組合我們會送監察院是不是可以請審計部這裡之後給本席一份資料就是你們送監察院"},{"start":542.855,"end":555.338,"text":"調查的最後的處理結果是什麼會不會就是你審計部你抓出了一些案子可是送到監察院監察院可能第一個他可能不受理第二個可能他最後處理的這個狀況一個認為是沒有問題要不然就是處理之後這個處罰不會監察案我們送去他會糾正"},{"start":563.2,"end":583.797,"text":"会弹劾这些我们都有处理麻烦审计部可以提供给我近十年来你们审计部移送给监察院处理的状况做一个列表哪些案子送到监察院然后他做的报告最后我有一个小问题这114年的总预算"},{"start":585.278,"end":606.054,"text":"這個行政院提向這個憲法法院提起申請釋憲那大法官也受理了但是我們知道現在14年總預算案已經執行到尾聲所以如果說現在憲法法院的判決認為當時我們立法院通過的預算可能程序上有瑕疵等等認為有違憲退回到立法院審查那麼請問"},{"start":608.196,"end":624.169,"text":"這個已經執行出去的預算之後因為立法院可能重新再審議然後法定預算有浮動的時候審計部這裡會怎麼處理這樣預算的編制權在行政院審議權在立法院"},{"start":625.712,"end":636.794,"text":"現在目前包括醫術也通過了追加也通過了大概大肆抵定我們會照如果縣政方面他大概會考慮整個國家不要動盪所以大概我們下來以後我們會照立法院通過的預算所以你的建議是說建議大法官其實對於14年的我們不能建議他是從他的"},{"start":652.417,"end":675.457,"text":"再去這個雞婆啦再去審理受理因為畢竟我們的總預算案都已經執行了嘛然後追加預算也都已經通過了所以如果說再變動的話它其實會影響很大對不對對 這個大法官的專業啊不過就是我覺得這個議題也是很有趣的一個法律上憲法上面的議題喔就是如果說大法官還真的針對114年的總預算案做出了違憲的判決"},{"start":676.718,"end":693.604,"text":"那麼事後要怎麼樣的去審計我們這個都有方法那可以請審計部請審計長也把你們的現在的這個預估可能處理的一些狀況然後提份書面報告給我好嗎"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}